What rights do terrorists have?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by unlinked, Jul 20, 2016.

  1. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    "I can't ignore Man Monis as an individual, he had the same rights as anyone else," the police officer replied.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-36842227


    Surely they are mostly negated by everyone elses, when they are actively committing terrorist acts anyway.
     
  2. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #2
    It's complicated.
    Consider the (admittedly often unlikely) hypothesis of someone being framed?
    What about someone coerced ("if you don't do that, we'll kill your family") into committing terrorism?
    What about a kid kidnapped at 8 years old, and brainwashed into terrorism when he's an adult?
     
  3. unlinked thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    Pretty much all adults have been brainwashed along the way.
    We still go along with the idea they are responsible for their actions.
     
  4. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #4
    Personally I hold more accountable a fully functioning person that got into that path once adult that a kid who has never known anything outside of extremism. One is clearly at fault, the other one is subject to debate and likely a victim himself.

    What would you do if someone made you start beheading people at 8yo and if everything you're ever exposed to said it's the right thing to do?
     
  5. DearthnVader macrumors regular

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  6. Scepticalscribe, Jul 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #6
    There is a difference between being 'brainwashed' and having been 'socialised'.

    There is also a difference between the duty of care that a police officer - in a western society governed by the rule of law - by dint of having the right to use force, having a lawful monopoly on the right to legitimately use force - must respect, and the rights and responsibilities of citizens.

    In other words, police must be seen to uphold the law - as they are the public face of the state's right to use force - even as they enforce it. And this has to be seen to be done even against terrorists.
     
  7. DearthnVader macrumors regular

    DearthnVader

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    #7
    The State has no Rights, it has powers granted to it by the people.
     
  8. bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

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    #8
    Accusations of criminality are why due process exists. Those involved in the criminal justice system obviously have the same rights as anyone else in that country. Why is this even a question?

    Free and open liberal democracies don't curtail rights based on the accusation of less desirable crimes. All people need to be treated equally under the law.
     
  9. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #9
    Socialisation is subjective.
     
  10. BernyMac macrumors regular

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    #10
    Nice concept and great ideology, only if the human factor was not thrown in there to muck up the meaning of "needs to be", "must be", "should be". :(
     
  11. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #11
    No. The rule of law is the key concept that underpins the functioning of all democracies, the idea that the law is above those who wield authority, that the rulers must obey the law every bit as much as those (over) whom they rule.

    So, the 'concept' as you describe it, is nothing to do with the 'human factor' and everything to do with ensuring that the law applies to all. Otherwise, it simply devolves and disintegrates into a situation where the strong (sometimes wearing uniforms) prey on the weak.
     
  12. unlinked, Jul 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016

    unlinked thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    I'm pretty sure most liberal democracies detain people prior to a conviction.

    Plus Man Monis was eventually shot. I suppose Australia mightn't be on your list of liberal democracies though.
     
  13. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

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    #13
    In that situation they have no Rights, they are trumped by the Rights of those he held captive and endangered. The police did more than their due diligence by trying to negotiate for 17 hours.
     
  14. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #14
    The officer's choice of words was poor, as was admitted. But, the furor is ignoring two points. First, initially, the police weren't sure that the guy really was a terrorist (assuming that implies a political or ideological motivation), or, was just a plain old criminal who latched onto the Islamist thing. Second, they couldn't foresee the future or how things would play out-- as they stated, it did not start out like the typical terrorist incident. It started out like a well-known domestic crime/hostage incident. The officer stated that he felt saddened thinking that more of the victims lives would probably have been saved if they had reacted differently.

    In other words, 20/20 hindsight issue to start.

    But, to address one more point-- initially, until you know what is going on, the rule of law requires you to take certain steps. Initially, they did not know that the individual was a terrorist. They didn't know what he would ultimately do. After the fact, it turned out that the individual killed more people, ended up dead, was proven to be a terrorist, and no longer has any rights.

    It isn't about the rights of a terrorist. It is about the rights of everyone prior to people acting and to events actually taking place.
     
  15. Huntn macrumors G5

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    #15
    They always have civil, humane rights under the law, no matter what they have been accused of doing. Some cases appear to be cut and dry, But others are not so clear. To say they have no rights is a flawed approach which does not take into account false accusations and corruption.
     
  16. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #16
    All humans have (at least should) human rights.
     
  17. unlinked thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    I think once you take hostages and have shot at them you have moved past that stage of thoughtcrime.
     
  18. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #18
    It is about the police - or law enforcement agencies and the security forces - acting in a lawful manner and the agents of the state being answerable to the rule of law.
     
  19. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 601

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #19
    Terrorists have the right to a fair trial IMO. As far as human rights go I think they deserve them unless nobody is looking.
     
  20. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #20
    I might be a left-leaning fuzzy liberal, but I believe that terrorists should be treated as war criminals (intentionally targeting civilians, being a combatant without showing military insignia), including indefinite detention until the terrorist war is over and prosecution for war crimes. Also, any combatant takes a risk of being killed in action - it is no different for Western soldiers and police trying to fight the terrorists. I don't think terrorists should be executed when they've been disarmed or rendered helpless, as some countries seem to do, but, if they die in a fire fight, so be it. They made their choice.
     
  21. adroit macrumors 6502

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  22. thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

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    #22
    Regardless of outside stimuli.

    Any of us can be responsible for our own actions when there are no outside stimuli. Example case: Do you go back to college and be called "wasteful spender" or be called "lazy", often by the same people who believe a summer job will pay for the entire tuition and other things that show how grossly out of touch with 21st Century America that they truly are.
     
  23. aaronvan Suspended

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  24. thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

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    #24
    Conservatives call me "liberal" and liberals call me "conservative". People love playing with labels the way they otherwise say we shouldn't put labels on people because of skin types or other personal attributes. We don't need to be pigeonholed in an oversimplified category to agree on basic things I think most of us actually agree on to varying extents if we bothered to listen to one another. The means on how we get there invariably differs, but there are similarities too.
     
  25. jnpy!$4g3cwk, Jul 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016

    jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #25
    20/20 hindsight, but, the officer did not know what the outcome would be at the beginning. I take notice of this because, so often, I see criticism of (the police, or, others in lots of other situations) that assume you know the outcome. The officer did not know what the outcome would be. He picked a particular model based on various signs. It turned out to be incorrect, but, this isn't a scientific experiment.
     

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