What should San Francisco do about their homeless problem?

Chew Toy McCoy

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I realize this paragraph will largely get ignored but I’ll put it anyway. I know this is largely due to liberal policies (and weather). I’m not asking how they got here. I’m asking what they should do about it.

I know there are homeless problems elsewhere but I’m just picking SF because over the last couple years they have become world renown for streets filled with human feces and needles. “Come for the fog. Stay for the poop.” They also seem to have policies that coddle the rich and homeless drug addicts. Everybody else in between can f off.

I’m on the fence about their free needle program but even if they nixed it that doesn’t mean the homeless drug addicts will leave. You can’t really take much else away from them because they are homeless. I’m also sure they are already in and out of jail. Being homeless isn’t a long incarceration term crime (yet).

Any thoughts or examples of how things have improved elsewhere?
 

NT1440

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May 18, 2008
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What about the ones that don't want to be housed? For some, homelessness is a choice.
Offer them the mental health services they clearly need.

Our memories are so short in this country that we forget the boom in homelessness started with Reagan’s “reforms”. Mental illness is rampant in the homeless (and prison) communities.
 

jkcerda

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Jun 10, 2013
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House them. It’s pretty simple to take care of humans when human needs take precedent over bowing to economic/market ideology. Unfortunately that’s not the world we live in.
not really feasible in SF. housing there is through the roof and crazy expensive, which leads me to ask why do the homeless stay there?
I am fine with the "free" tax payer funded needles. hope they get out of their current situation clean if they use the needle program.
 

BeeGood

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I realize this paragraph will largely get ignored but I’ll put it anyway. I know this is largely due to liberal policies (and weather). I’m not asking how they got here. I’m asking what they should do about it.
Well, I think that’s some important information to have when you’re trying to figure out a solution.

If you don’t fix what got them there in the first place, how do you guarantee they don’t simply end up on the street later?
 

hawkeye_a

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Keep blaming Trump, capitalism and conservatives anf climate change; that’ll fix everything. /s

Note: im sure none of that is done by CA politicians and intellectuals to try and deflect responsibility for local issues. /s

But, im sure raising taxes even further and shifting more responsibility to government can fix anything(not really).
 
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Herdfan

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House them. It’s pretty simple to take care of humans when human needs take precedent over bowing to economic/market ideology. Unfortunately that’s not the world we live in.
That would take some easing of regulations and red tape. Seems developers have tried to create affordable housing, but by the time they jump though all the hoops and do what is required they can't afford to build affordable housing.
 
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rayriceroni00

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House them. It’s pretty simple to take care of humans when human needs take precedent over bowing to economic/market ideology. Unfortunately that’s not the world we live in.
So tax payers yet again take the hit when they're already paying insanely high taxes?
[doublepost=1550785594][/doublepost]The answer is simple. Stop thinking like a Californian. Stop prioritizing illegals. Stop asking tax payers to pay for drug usage.

Instead of 100% handouts all the time, start thinking about how to get them on their feet. Job fairs for homeless. Drives to donate clothing for jobs, interviews, etc.

But it will never happen, because well it's California and they are insane.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Offer them the mental health services they clearly need.

Our memories are so short in this country that we forget the boom in homelessness started with Reagan’s “reforms”. Mental illness is rampant in the homeless (and prison) communities.
If you aren't wealthy in this country and have mental issues you have 2 options, prison or roaming the streets freaking and bumming other people out.

As far as housing I was thinking of something along the lines of some kind of communes outside city centers, not really a prison but guarded and strict rules to remain like some drug rehab programs have. It would be focused on giving them skills to be an employed contributing member of society. Clearly it wouldn’t work or be for everybody who is homeless but it’s better than what is out there now. Roaming the streets of one of the most cost prohibitive cities on the planet is going to get you nowhere.
[doublepost=1550786226][/doublepost]
Well, I think that’s some important information to have when you’re trying to figure out a solution.

If you don’t fix what got them there in the first place, how do you guarantee they don’t simply end up on the street later?
That is very valid. I was just trying to prevent the topic from becoming nothing but hurling general insults at liberals.

I would actually be interested to hear if there are any conservative leaning cities that have handled homelessness better and how.

Keep blaming Trump, capitalism and conservatives; that’ll fix everything. /s

Note: im sure none of that is done by CA politicians and intellectuals to try and deflect responsibility for local issues. /s

But, im sure raising taxes even further and shifting more responsibility to government can fix anything(not really).
And there it is.
 
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hawkeye_a

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@Chew Toy McCoy
Take a peek at history. Does SF today seem reminiscent of NYC in the 70s/80s? How did they turn things around(policies)?

And no im not suggesting conservative vs regressive, im suggesting actual policy changes.

IMHO historical evidence of the effectiveness of policies and their outcomes ought to be your guide, not intentions and wishes.

EDIT>> in addition, the term “two speed economy” comes to mind, which seems to be compounding the problems.
 
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BeeGood

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That is very valid. I was just trying to prevent the topic from becoming nothing but hurling general insults at liberals.

I would actually be interested to hear if there are any conservative leaning cities that have handled homelessness better and how.
I gotcha. Threads like this can easily swirl down the toilet in that way.

New Orleans had a pretty bad homless situation a few years after Hurricane Katrina. I can’t remember specifics, but the keys that I recall are getting people into housing, off the street, and being able to quickly identify who’s got mental health issues and who the addicts are. Then, offer treatment accordingly. Also, *do not* send them to jail, unless they’re just really violent offenders. They simply come out weeks or months later more dysfunctional and more addicted.

In San Francisco’s case, they really don’t seem to be able to or interested in housing them. They really seem to just want to normalize the situation by making their existence on the streets “safer”. That seems counterproductive if the goal is to decrease homelessness.
 

Rigby

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Chew Toy McCoy

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@Chew Toy McCoy
Take a peek at history. Does SF today seem reminiscent of NYC in the 70s/80s? How did they turn things around(policies)?

And no im not suggesting conservative vs regressive, im suggesting actual policy changes.

IMHO historical evidence of the effectiveness of policies and their outcomes ought to be your guide, not intentions.

EDIT>> in addition, the term “two speed economy” comes to mind, which seems to be compounding the problems.

What we are taught in CA about NYC improving there homeless issue was giving them bus tickets to CA. I'm not joking.


I gotcha. Threads like this can easily swirl down the toilet in that way.

New Orleans had a pretty bad homless situation a few years after Hurricane Katrina. I can’t remember specifics, but the keys that I recall are getting people into housing, off the street, and being able to quickly identify who’s got mental health issues and who the addicts are. Then, offer treatment accordingly. Also, *do not* send them to jail, unless they’re just really violent offenders. They simply come out weeks or months later more dysfunctional and more addicted.

In San Francisco’s case, they really don’t seem to be able to or interested in housing them. They really seem to just want to normalize the situation by making their existence on the streets “safer”. That seems counterproductive if the goal is to decrease homelessness.
Sounds like New Orleans has the right idea.

One of the problems with SF is there isn't enough housing even for people with well paying jobs. I could go on and on about how the tech industry has destroyed the Bay Area and it's preexisting thriving culture of different socioeconomic groups with seeming to think everybody needs to live here to do their globalization job. It appears they think globalization means everybody on the globe move to the Bay Area. But now that they've destroyed the Bay Area they've got their eyes squarely on Seattle to do the same.

The supreme hypocrisy is the culture of acceptance and respect for everybody, except the homeless: Gross.
[doublepost=1550797642][/doublepost]
Apparently they haven't, at least not in terms of number of homeless as a percentage of the population. But it seems east cost cities are doing a better job of providing shelter:




Source: https://www.spur.org/publications/urbanist-article/2017-10-23/homelessness-bay-area

I think the better sheltering probably has to do with the climate of the area. The homeless will get sheltered when there are extreme temperatures in that city.
 
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Rigby

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I think the better sheltering probably has to do with the climate of the area. The homeless will get sheltered when there are extreme temperatures in that city.
I don't think that's the main reason. Here's another article that seems to indicate that SF simply has a shortage of shelter for some reason. BTW, you'd be surprised how cold SF can get.

https://medium.com/@josefow/new-york-decided-to-end-street-homelessness-and-it-basically-succeeded-ab27f3ec5a65
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I don't think that's the main reason. Here's another article that seems to indicate that SF simply has a shortage of shelter for some reason. BTW, you'd be surprised how cold SF can get.

https://medium.com/@josefow/new-york-decided-to-end-street-homelessness-and-it-basically-succeeded-ab27f3ec5a65
Interesting article with some good ideas. Part of the issue might also be that the cost of living in SF really ramped up in a relatively short and recent period of time and sheltering people priority was given to people with money. NYC has been a cost prohibitive city for a long time. I know SF can get cold but it doesn't snow every year. There's a good probability the city thinks a new thick blanket will suffice.
 

s2mikey

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So tax payers yet again take the hit when they're already paying insanely high taxes?
[doublepost=1550785594][/doublepost]The answer is simple. Stop thinking like a Californian. Stop prioritizing illegals. Stop asking tax payers to pay for drug usage.

Instead of 100% handouts all the time, start thinking about how to get them on their feet. Job fairs for homeless. Drives to donate clothing for jobs, interviews, etc.

But it will never happen, because well it's California and they are insane.
Yes, you nailed it but it’s mean spirited and far too right wing of a solution. How dare we ask some of these folks to get their act together and fend for themselves! Sure, some are beyond help and mental issues have caused their situation. Fine, I don’t think most of us mind helping those TRULY in need....TRULY being the keyword here.

Of course, making good decisions early in life can help avoid ending up homeless but then there’s that personal responsibility thing again which drives the left crazy. It’s always somone else’s fault.
 

daflake

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Apr 8, 2008
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I realize this paragraph will largely get ignored but I’ll put it anyway. I know this is largely due to liberal policies (and weather). I’m not asking how they got here. I’m asking what they should do about it.

I know there are homeless problems elsewhere but I’m just picking SF because over the last couple years they have become world renown for streets filled with human feces and needles. “Come for the fog. Stay for the poop.” They also seem to have policies that coddle the rich and homeless drug addicts. Everybody else in between can f off.

I’m on the fence about their free needle program but even if they nixed it that doesn’t mean the homeless drug addicts will leave. You can’t really take much else away from them because they are homeless. I’m also sure they are already in and out of jail. Being homeless isn’t a long incarceration term crime (yet).

Any thoughts or examples of how things have improved elsewhere?

My problem is that we aren't really willing to help the homeless, but people come to the border and cross without proper documentation and everyone cries foul when we deport them.

Frankly, I would like to see us actually help our citizens out FIRST, get our house in order and then we can focus on others in need.

SF has gotten bad and they aren't helping the situation, just exacerbating it. The good news with places like SF is that it really brings to light the problem that we have rather than it being hidden out of sight.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

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Yes, you nailed it but it’s mean spirited and far too right wing of a solution. How dare we ask some of these folks to get their act together and fend for themselves! Sure, some are beyond help and mental issues have caused their situation. Fine, I don’t think most of us mind helping those TRULY in need....TRULY being the keyword here.

Of course, making good decisions early in life can help avoid ending up homeless but then there’s that personal responsibility thing again which drives the left crazy. It’s always somone else’s fault.
It’s all that easy isn’t it because everybody grows up with great parents in affluent areas with role models leading them down the right path.... Like every topic you comment on it’s always hard line and devoid of compassion and empathy because you yourself are more fortunate.
 

s2mikey

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It’s all that easy isn’t it because everybody grows up with great parents in affluent areas with role models leading them down the right path.... Like every topic you comment on it’s always hard line and devoid of compassion and empathy because you yourself are more fortunate.
Ehhh - I dunno about that. I grew up in a standard middle class house. Me and wifey earn a modest household income together(neither of us have college degrees). I spent my early adulthood partying and NOT taking things very seriously. Once I "figured" out that I had to do something constructive with my life I ended up OK. I had no "ins" or "breaks" that others may have had. My dad did OK but wasnt a celebrity or someone with "pull" if you know what I mean.

I have empathy for those that DESERVE empathy. I help others when I can. Despite what you might think Im not a bad guy. However, I do expect people to try and do the right thing and when they dont my empathy tends to go away. I was almost a "statistic" as in a victim of my own bad choices. But I chose to do something about it.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

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Ehhh - I dunno about that. I grew up in a standard middle class house. Me and wifey earn a modest household income together(neither of us have college degrees). I spent my early adulthood partying and NOT taking things very seriously. Once I "figured" out that I had to do something constructive with my life I ended up OK. I had no "ins" or "breaks" that others may have had. My dad did OK but wasnt a celebrity or someone with "pull" if you know what I mean.

I have empathy for those that DESERVE empathy. I help others when I can. Despite what you might think Im not a bad guy. However, I do expect people to try and do the right thing and when they dont my empathy tends to go away. I was almost a "statistic" as in a victim of my own bad choices. But I chose to do something about it.
Exactly, you had a modest and stable upbringing. You say you have empathy for those who deserve it but when you see homeless people, how do you know what their story is? You judge without the background like a lot of people.
 

mrex

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Yes, you nailed it but it’s mean spirited and far too right wing of a solution. How dare we ask some of these folks to get their act together and fend for themselves! Sure, some are beyond help and mental issues have caused their situation. Fine, I don’t think most of us mind helping those TRULY in need....TRULY being the keyword here.

Of course, making good decisions early in life can help avoid ending up homeless but then there’s that personal responsibility thing again which drives the left crazy. It’s always somone else’s fault.
So tax payers yet again take the hit when they're already paying insanely high taxes? [doublepost=1550785594][/doublepost]The answer is simple. Stop thinking like a Californian. Stop prioritizing illegals. Stop asking tax payers to pay for drug usage.

Instead of 100% handouts all the time, start thinking about how to get them on their feet. Job fairs for homeless. Drives to donate clothing for jobs, interviews, etc. But it will never happen, because well it's California and they are insane.

what is consider as a high taxes? i have always thought that taxes in US are pretty low (income taxes and for food/products) while products are more or less quite cheap there too... if i lived there and got the same salary as now, i would pay 22% taxes (minus deductions which you can do to reduce taxes). here i pay around 30% from the same salary while products and food are much expensive...

that is pretty narrow minded to say ”stop asking tax payers... ” ... for example if drug users cant get free clean needles then they use used/contaminated needles and it is asking more trouble than giving them clean needles for free without worrying to be arrested and collect all those used needles away rather than seeing them on the street.

helping to get someone on their feet, needs lots of work and they need lots of help: a roof above their heads, some kind of therapy (more or less homeless people suffer some sort of mental illness/conditions) and maybe some basic education to get an basic occupation. it is quite easy to say ”take a control of yourself and start working” when your own life is simple and you have a place to work, get food and sleep under a roof on everyday.

when you dont even have a roof or dont know what to eat tomorrow, it doesnt happen like a miracle that you just go to the interview and find a job. finding a job is already hard for a normal people, not to mention to homeless or addicts...

but if everything is always ”me first and take care of yourself” then nothing will change... it is already happening there, and it is only becoming worse in the future - laws that criminalize homeless arent helping at all, only making matters worse.

”someone else fault”- why is it so black and white? how about those who have lost their jobs and maybe their houses because of natural disasters? family member died and you needed a help but **** happen and finally you lost your job.. are you going to say ”hey your fault!” people are doing jobs that are paid low, they may have difficulties even to pay their rents and already that causes lot of stress that may cause mental conditions, e.g. depression, which may affect that the person finally gives up.. is that their fault because they didnt have a good job?

there are also homeless children/youth - their fault not having rich or caring parents?

even drug addicts probably didnt make a choice to become addicts... their fault? sure, sort of... nobody didnt put the needle in their arms, but again - there probably is some sort of mental conditions on the background that the person started to use drugs/alcohol in the first place.

who are those who truly deserve your help? children? youth? veterans? pensioners who have worked all their lives but cant afford medicines and pay the rent? a drug addict whose life was miserable? a rich guy who lost everything when making wrong choices? a family who lost their jobs? a woman who has a mental illness and cant take care of herself? a prostitute on a street who has no other choices to survive?

so, take care of yourself, save for golds, you never know what happens tomorrow and who is saying ”your fault and im not really sure if you truly deserve tax payers help” when needing help.
 
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daflake

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Exactly, you had a modest and stable upbringing. You say you have empathy for those who deserve it but when you see homeless people, how do you know what their story is? You judge without the background like a lot of people.
I've been jaded by some homeless folks... We had a guy down the street that I would give money too and he ended up on the news. Apparently he would come to the corner and beg for money then jump in his Mercedes and dive to his rather large house. It was all a ruse.....

Does that mean they all do it? Nope, but it give me pause when they are simply begging.

I do give money to those who are entertaining. If you are working to earn it, then I feel a little better about it.

That being said, there are those who need help and I think that we really should work to help these people in need.
 
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rayriceroni00

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what is consider as a high taxes? i have always thought that taxes in US are pretty low (income taxes and for food/products) while products are more or less quite cheap there too... if i lived there and got the same salary as now, i would pay 12% taxes (minus deductions which you can do to reduce taxes). here i pay around 30% from the same salary while products and food are much expensive...

that is pretty narrow minded to say ”stop asking tax payers... ” ... for example if drug users cant get free clean needles then they use used/contaminated needles and it is asking more trouble than giving them clean needles for free without worrying to be arrested and collect all those used needles away rather than seeing them on the street.

helping to get someone on their feet, needs lots of work and they need lots of help: a roof above their heads, some kind of therapy (more or less homeless people suffer some sort of mental illness/conditions) and maybe some basic education to get an basic occupation. it is quite easy to say ”take a control of yourself and start working” when your own life is simple and you have a place to work, get food and sleep under a roof on everyday.

when you dont even have a roof or dont know what to eat tomorrow, it doesnt happen like a miracle that you just go to the interview and find a job. finding a job is already hard for a normal people, not to mention to homeless or addicts...

but if everything is always ”me first and take care of yourself” then nothing will change... it is already happening there, and it is only becoming worse in the future - laws that criminalize homeless arent helping at all, only making matters worse.

”someone else fault”- why is it so black and white? how about those who have lost their jobs and maybe their houses because of natural disasters? family member died and you needed a help but **** happen and finally you lost your job.. are you going to say ”hey your fault!” people are doing jobs that are paid low, they may have difficulties even to pay their rents and already that causes lot of stress that may cause mental conditions, e.g. depression, which may affect that the person finally gives up.. is that their fault because they didnt have a good job?

there are also homeless children/youth - their fault not having rich or caring parents?

even drug addicts probably didnt make a choice to become addicts... their fault? sure, sort of... nobody didnt put the needle in their arms, but again - there probably is some sort of mental conditions on the background that the person started to use drugs/alcohol in the first place.

who are those who truly deserve your help? children? youth? veterans? pensioners who have worked all their lives but cant afford medicines and pay the rent? a drug addict whose life was miserable? a rich guy who lost everything when making wrong choices? a family who lost their jobs? a woman who has a mental illness and cant take care of herself? a prostitute on a street who has no other choices to survive?

so, take care of yourself, save for golds, you never know what happens tomorrow and who is saying ”your fault and im not really sure if you truly deserve tax payers help” when needing help.

If you're in the 12% category, then you can't afford to live in these areas without like 2 roommates at least. So your argument is basically for other people to pay for this problem.
[doublepost=1550842461][/doublepost]
Build a wall and make the rest of the US pay for it.
Don't tempt me with a good time. I wouldn't mind the Mexico wall to curve up and include all of CA up to just past the golden gate bridge.
 
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