What's wrong with the society?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by T909, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. T909 Suspended

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    #1
    I really do not mean to offend anyone by any means by this post, but if we, for example take a look at the state like Turkey and what many people think of Erdogan it seems to me that the history is repeating.
    Many people praise him, even though he's a brutal dictator who's now killing Kurdish people.
    I watched the YouTube video: Why is the world worried about Turkey and then I read some comments and the comments sound like as if they were written by Hitler's supporter. Just to bring you an example:
    "Hitler was great. The economic growth under his rule was very big. He cared for animal right's and people's health" etc… People are posting the same thing about Erdogan and other dictators.

    The Americans are bashing free health care and education by comparing it to the socialism. If some Americans (mostly youngsters) want college tuition and health care to be free of charge they get called "socialists" and they're like: "Look what happened to Venezuela!"
    But there are many great countries with free health care, social welfare and education such as Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and to some extent Germany and all other European countries have free education, health care as well.
    Why are many American people stuck in their old way of thinking? Why don't people realise the fact that free health care eventually would be a lot cheaper and better for the society.

    My question is: What's wrong with the society and why are people always stuck in the old way of thinking? Why aren't people more educated, more open minded during the era that we live in?

    NB. By no means I wanted to start an argument or anything. It's just I've learned history a lot and it's part of my hobby (I'm especially interested in medieval times and old languages and nations), but by looking at people nowadays I feel like we haven't changed. We haven't made progress as much as we should've made by now.
    How do you feel about these issues?
     
  2. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #2
    It's easy for countries to pay for healthcare and college tuition when you have another country picking up the big ticket items like national defense.
     
  3. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #3
    What is wrong with society? Stuff like this...

    http://www.ajc.com/news/national/ar...us-tide-pod-challenge/fgGxrYa6z5pAGuFoAJXpDI/
     
  4. T909 thread starter Suspended

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    #4
    Please explain more
    --- Post Merged, Feb 5, 2018 ---
    Thank you for the link. I haven't heard about it. Hopefully it won't spread across the globe.
     
  5. chiefsilverback macrumors 6502

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    #5
    This mindset is part of the problem. Nowhere is healthcare actually free, but it is managed and funded in such a way that patients/citizens don't get slapped with crippling bills after an unfortunate accident or illness.

    In the UK taxpayers pay national insurance contributions, which fund state pensions and the NHS. The national insurance rate is 12% upto a certain threshold and then drops to 2% for earnings above that level. Compare that to the US where you're paying 7.6% in social security and medicare/medicaid and then you've got your health insurance costs plus any deductibles and out of pocket expenses. For me that's 3% for my health insurance premiums for a high deductible plan that exposes me to potentially $6000 out of pocket on an annual basis. All in I'm paying more than the 12% I used to pay in the UK, and it requires me to hunt around for in-network providers etc...

    The major difference between the US and UK systems is that in principle the NHS is a non-profit organisation, and all the doctors, hospitals, nurses etc... are employed by the NHS using fixed salary bands and ranges etc... The NHS can then negotiate prices for pharmaceuticals on behalf of 65 million people, rather than my local hospital in New Hampshire that serves a tiny fraction of that number.

    The net result is that a procedure/treatment in the US costs between 3 and 5 times more than it does in the UK.

    And then you can look at the various ranking for health outputs etc... the US is positively third world when it comes to measures like infant mortality, not exactly a ring endorsement for a health system.
     
  6. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #6
    Europe really doesn't have to worry about defense because of the US. If the US packed up every base in Europe and said "you're on your own", Russia wouldn't wait a year to start reassembling the ole USSR because who's gonna stop them? Österreich? No ones calling Denmark when the **** hits the fan somewhere across the globe.

    I agree we need to do something about HC in this country, but people don't trust the government because they can't manage SS and Medicare, no one wants to hand them another massive entitlement program to screw up and turn into a political 3rd rails.

    As far as education, it's more complex. Just simply saying "free college for all" is campaign slogan. No one talks about the nuts and bolts and that is the required education reform that would need to take place all the way down to kindergarten. This is the land of opportunity, no one is going to accept being told their child doesn't have the intelligence to make it to college, so they put them on another track the way they do in Europe. That's not likely going to fly here. Instead our politicians throw out talking points about giving every person the opportunity to go to college. Even if their course of study provides zero value to society, we're the land of hopes and dreams. If they want to major in underwater basket weaving, they should be encouraged to do so. Again, no one wants to be honest that not every kid deserves the opportunity.
     
  7. BaldiMac macrumors 604

    BaldiMac

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    #7
    Except they did. The Danish Air Force participated in the NATO action in Libya. France flew most of the missions.
     
  8. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #8

    Nobody and I mean next to nobody wants a healthcare system like the UK has. No one in the US is going to sign up for the government deciding what medications/treatments are approved based on cost. No one in the US is going to sign up for the cancer survival rates of the UK. No one is in the US is going to sign up for the dental/orthodontia care of the UK either. If the US is going to transition to a UHC system is till mostly likely resemble that of the Swiss style system as opposed to a single payer system.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 5, 2018 ---
    The police department of St. Paul Minnesota could successfully invade Libya. Lets not be foolish, you know what I'm talking about.
     
  9. bopajuice Suspended

    bopajuice

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    #9
    I hear this all the time from the right, but never any ideas. Whatever happened to the GOP healthcare plan? They seem to be content with getting rid of the mandate. Since then I have heard very little. No new plans, nothing.

    That is what I never could understand. Obama finally did "Something", anything.... At least he tried to do something. Whether we like it or not is not the issue. The fact is Congress keeps obstructing, claiming they have a better plan but nothing ever materializes. It always gets kicked down the road. Even with total control, we still can't come up with a plan, any plan... I guess the right is happy as long as we got rid of Obamacare.

    If you are content going back to the default plan of the uninsured going to the emergency room for a sniffle, and then we the taxpayer foot the bill with higher premiums... Not much more to say.
     
  10. chiefsilverback macrumors 6502

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    #10
    When I tell people over here that in the UK you get taken to an emergency room after a car wreck you get whatever treatments are necessary and you (hopefully) walk back out again without a bill they can't quite get their heads around it. Similarly people in the UK sit in slack jawed disbelief when your show them the bill for $35,000 for child birth, or $13,000 for a one month old baby to spend one night in hospital because they had a fever, or $1000 for two surgical staples at the ER.

    Is the NHS perfect? No, but whereas I suspect many people in the US actually would like a system them allows them to go to the doctor/hospital without worrying about the bill, there really is no one in the UK who would opt for the US system.

    Also all the arguments against 'socialist' healthcare are completely undermined by the simple fact that in the US the poor still get treated, and the costs get deferred through higher premiums for those who can pay, and reduced tax revenues because the 'losses' get written off.

    There's a sweet irony in Republicans using the concept of death panels as a way to scare people from getting to interested in a single payer/national health type system, yet health insurance companies employ teams of doctors to try and find reasons to not pay out on someone's treatment, and until the ACA made it illegal, to come up with reasons to not offer coverage.
     
  11. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #11
    First I'm not the right. Second who says I'm not in favor of what Obama did? I'm in favor of the individual mandate because I don't see any other way. I think what he did was half assed, I think he gave too much to the insurance and drug lobby and in the end we're sitting in a bigger cluster **** of healthcare mess. Does that sound like what you hear all the time from the "right"?
    --- Post Merged, Feb 5, 2018 ---
    There are three pillars of healthcare; affordability, universality, and quality. No country on the face of the planet nails all three. If your idea of a great healthcare system is no bill when you go home from the ER but your mother is more likely to die of breast cancer because of a single payer system, then that's surely a trade off the people of the UK have accepted. What the US citizens are willing to accept is still up in the air.
     
  12. bopajuice Suspended

    bopajuice

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    #12
    Never assumed you were representing the right. I said I hear these sort of comments from the right. No insinuation intended. I addressed you specifically regarding reverting to the old system because you said you did not trust the government to manage healthcare, so that would mean going back to the old way which was the uninsured going to the emergency room for non emergency issues.
     
  13. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #13
    I think you'd get plenty of Americans on board if the solution was geared more towards a Swiss style system then one of single payer government run healthcare. Yes, there is a swelling distrust for our politicians (on both sides).
     
  14. chiefsilverback macrumors 6502

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    #14
    Your mother might be more likely to survive breast cancer, but your unborn child is more likely to die during child birth so it's swings and roundabouts! Flippancy aside, I think the biggest flaw with the US healthcare system is treating it like any other good or service. When a drunk driver crashes into you as you're driving across the country on a family vacation, and your child is being cut from the wreckage with a suspected broken neck you don't really have the luxury or jumping online and finding which nearby hospital offers the best compromise of cost and treatment outcomes, or which air ambulance is going to fly them to the hospital, and then check that they are all in network, or at least call and try to negotiate the price.

    For elective and cosmetic treatments sure, let the market do it's thing, but for emergency care, critical illness care etc... most people don't have a choice, and those that do are probably not in the best situation to make an informed decision at the time.
     
  15. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #15
    Infant mortality isn't a measure of the quality of a nations healthcare system. Not when every country who reports such statistics does so with a different definition of what a live birth is.
     
  16. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #16
    I really wouldn't believe everything Fox news tells you - actually go and do a bit of homework on how much the UK vs US healthcare systems cost to run and what outcomes they produce. By the sounds of things, the reality will surprise you (if you're willing to go in open minded enough to believe it).
     
  17. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #17
    I don't watch Fox news, I know and I've ready plenty. Go look at the cancer survival rates and compare them to the US. Again, if a country decides to accept an uptick in cancer deaths in order to cover everyone, that's a decision it's citizens have to make.
     
  18. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #18
    So, first, nothing is free. Someone has to pay for it.

    Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, it’s not the idea itself, it’s the rhetoric behind it. While you see people “bashing free healthcare and education”, what you’re not seeing is that many people who call for it will often call people aren’t in favor of it “selfish”, “greedy” and “compassionate”. The “bashing” goes both ways.

    Making things “free” doesn’t solve the underlying issues of cost with education and healthcare. The US pays far more than most developed countries for healthcare and I believe education as well. Given the way that congress has operated over the last several years, nobody should be convinced that this government can properly run much of anything.

    There’s also the fact that too many people are going to college as evidenced by not only the high number of people who don’t get past freshmen year, but also by the number of people who get degrees that they think will lead to good jobs but ultimately do not.

    One thing that you’ll notice about those countries above is that they’re way more culturall/racially homogeneous than the US. When you have that kind of homogeneity in your society it makes it a heck of a lot easier to foster trust and goodwill.

    That’s definitely debatable. Our congress can’t even produce an annual budget in a timely fashion. The last time they attempted to do something for healthcare we got a cobbled-together mess that helped some people and made others worse off.

    So, no, it’s not a fact that single-payer healthcare in the US would be cheaper or better.
     
  19. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #19
    https://visual.ons.gov.uk/how-does-uk-healthcare-spending-compare-internationally/
    I don't know what study you are referencing, but most such metrics fluctuate over time. Are they that ^^ much better, I wonder? I know in general, the NHS outperforms the US healthcare system on outcomes. That's something that is thrown up in just about every study I have ever read.
     
  20. VulchR, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018

    VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #20
    What's wrong with society: 1 part short-sighted, self-defeating selfishness + 1 part blind fear of change and diversity + 1 part rejection of knowledge and the values of the Enlightenment. In short, the outlook is far from rosy, and I think it's getting worse.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 5, 2018 ---
    Cancer is only one disease, and the UK is trying to address cancer by early detection. That will take some time to have an impact. The NHS is far from perfect but much of the problem is under-funding by a right-wing government hell-bent on austerity no matter what the price (in lives). My oldest is a NHS physician and they are chronically underfunded and and the government is using the good will of junior NHS staff to subsidise tax cuts for their rich buddies.
     
  21. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Which society are we talking about? Some move forward, most backwards. Usually, it's pragmatic for a Country to pay attention of it's citizens' basic needs (eg healthcare, housing, education, food). Ironically, if this happens long enough, people take it as a given and argue about their taxes. Basically, people are mostly idiots.
     
  22. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #22
    Yeah if that's not a ringing endorsement to those who don't want the government involved I don't know what is.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 5, 2018 ---
    Again, there's two questions. Affordability vs. Quality. The UK lags behind much of Europe in terms of cancer survival rates. They're second worst to Bulgaria in all of Europe for 5yr survival rates of lung cancer. The UK spends HALF what Germany does on cancer per person. The UK ranks right there with the economic power house that is the Czech Republic for adopting new cancer fighting drugs.

    In the United States, the age-adjusted breast cancer 5-year survival rate is 88.9 percent, compared with just 81.1 percent in the UK. The United States leads the world on the equivalent stat for prostate cancer (97.2 per cent) vs. 83.2 percent in the UK. Lung cancer: 18.7 percent in the United States vs. 9.6 percent in the UK; bowel cancer: 64.2 percent vs. 56.1 percent. Now 89 vs. 81% doesn't seem like much, unless it's your wife and mother to two kids in her 40's. I guess the US would statically spend less per capita GDP if people died faster. That would be one way to bend the curve slightly.

    Like I said, I think the US citizenry would have a greater time accepting a Swiss system then a single payer system.
     
  23. T909 thread starter Suspended

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    #23
    First of all I'd like to thank everybody for thoughtful replies. It has made me somewhat more open minded.
    I do know that the healthcare system isn't exactly free, but wouldn't it be better if everyone paid a little higher taxes, so the healthcare would be "free"?
    Now, I think everyone who wants to make it to the college should make it, because if people do what they love and if they study what they love it causes more happiness and less stress. I used to be a nurse and I didn't like it all and now I'm studying game programming, which is far more enjoyable. I never thought I'd get in when I applied but I got in and I'll also choose business as my second subject. Now if I would've never given that opportunity is it really better for the society if I, for example was a nurse for the rest of my life, but extremely stressed out and unhappy? I'm willing to start my own business and I'm willing to wake up early in the morning to work hard. If I'll succeed wouldn't it be better for the society in general? Why are American people against paying higher taxes?

    Also, I'd like to point out the fact that all NATO countries have helped the US in Iraq, Afghanistan was and it'd be unfair if the US didn't help out fellow NATO countries. I know some people that have died during Iraq war, or become mentally ill after they came back from the war.

    Now what about politics in general in countries like Turkey? Do you think that Turkey should be kicked out of the NATO for mistreating it's citizens or not?


    I agree with your fact and I try to understand why it is the way it is. If we take a look at Africa many ethnicities are fighting over there causing civil wars. Why are Africans less educated than North Americans and Europeans?

    Now, personally, I don't know about the healthcare system in the UK, but I do love the educational system in the UK. It's fairly payable and fair in my opinion. I don't know how things will be after the Brexit though.
     
  24. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #24
    Now, imagine if the NHS was given the level of funding seen in the rest of Europe - Germany or France for example, rather than being starved of funds by ideologues who rabidly oppose anything being in public ownership. Imagine how far ahead we'd be if health spending per person was the same £6,311 it is in the US rather than the £2,777 we actually spend. Here's the thing, the tax burden in the UK is the lowest in the developed world, even lower than in the US, let alone continental Europe. Think the free marketeers are going to have to face up to the fact that running a country costs money and they are going to have to start coughing up more as costs rise. The Swiss system is ok, but involves the government interfering in private enterprise, something that would probably get the government sued in the US.
     
  25. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #25
    What you said is exactly why many Americans don’t want to put their healthcare or lives in the hands of politicians. The UK likes referendums, why doesn’t someone put one out regarding healthcare funding or asking its citizens to pay more in tax (if your burden is the lowest in the developed world) to improve the system?
     

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