When did Employers hiring become so condescending?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MorphingDragon, Feb 27, 2014.

  1. MorphingDragon macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #1
    NOTE: I just want to make it clear I'm not moaning how there are no jobs or about the system is getting us young people down... man.

    So over the last 3 months I've been going through that wonderful life experience called bumming around at my parents while trying to get a job. I've applied to more people than you can shake a stick at, and even had interviews with some of them. After having a conversation with my dad about how he had issues trying to get a job after Uni, he pointed out some things he never had to deal with. Or any of his friends from that lifetime for that matter.

    Communication with applicants seems to be optional now. More and more companies are relying on automation for communication which is fine, but at the same time they've removed ways for candidates to actually talk to a person at the company. Using "Talent Agencies" which even hides what company you're applying for(!), explicitly stating that only candidates who are shortlisted will be contacted or even giving you phone numbers that don't actually work (I've rung quite a few numbers that disengaged after connecting overseas). Even when I've gone out of my way to ring the company, I get brickwalled saying that the hiring manager will contact you when they're ready (or to that effect).

    Companies seem to be relying on online tests to filter out people before the interview stage. Now there's nothing wrong with this in of itself, I agree. I loved the companies that offered a programming challenge you had to complete before an interview. But 9/10 I've had to take what is essentially an IQ test. Really? Most of your applicants will be people with University degrees, getting them to do a test which someone who passed high school math could do is plain just wasting our time for what exactly? I can confidently say after at least 10 of these bloody things, I can count the amount of times a letter appears in a block of text or identify the next number in the pattern. Please give me something that can actually assess my problem solving ability already.

    The 3 years industry experience thing seems to be just a piece of "industry wisdom" instead of any kind of actual requirement. In fact, it seems to be growing. I've found junior positions asking for 5 years experience. The most ridiculous case I found, I really wish I screen capped it, a place was asking 3 years experience in a technology that was less than a year old. Even after talking to some of these managers I get the impression that they can't or won't take on new people and train them, instead of actually having any legitimate reason not to. I've been outright ignoring the industry experience requirement for applying to non senior jobs.

    Now I don't actually know how I'm going to finish this semi rant, so here's a picture of a monkey.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. samiwas, Feb 27, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014

    samiwas macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    #2
    This is pretty much the reality of the world these days. They have so many applicants, they can be as ridiculously stingy about applicants as they want. And then they complain that they can't find anybody qualified. In my line of work, it would be like hiring a basic stagehand for $12/hour, and asking them to have experience with CAD software, know all their electrical formulas, and be certified in arena rigging then complaining that no applicants are actually qualified. Well, no ****, Sherlock.

    My wife went through the same thing as you. She applied to numerous positions, and never even heard back from any of them. And these were not skilled positions. These were like receptionist and customer service positions. One of them, an entry-level phone/email customer service position, wanted five years of experience and a 10-year uninterrupted work history. She ended up in the end taking an $8/hour job at a pottery studio. She quit a few months later when we decided it cost her more to work than she made doing it. She has plenty of skills, just not the relevant support to get an employer to look at her.

    So, this is the reason I take all this "we can't find any qualified applicants" with a grain of salt. The truth is, employers these days want 100% fully qualified, ready to walk in on day one and do whatever it is. They don't want to put forth one ounce of energy or cost towards training what could be the perfect person for the job.

    And why can't they find the people who could be perfect? Because they're using tests like "how many letters are in the box" to decide instead of actually meeting people.
     
  3. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    #3
    Any comments out there from recent fresh-outs about how they got their first job? Back in the day, people often used Temp agencies to get started. Is that still an option?

    I'm at the other end of the spectrum, myself. The end where the ageism is painfully obvious. I don't need a job myself, but, I know people who do, and, I can tell you that slots go empty rather than hire someone over 50 into a team of 30-ish people. They want experience, but, not too much.
     
  4. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #4
    Getting in on the ground floor of a profession is getting tougher. Generations past would get in anyway they can, sweeping floors, whatever, and they would actually train you. Now days if you start as a lower profession you are likely going to stay there.

    I don't know if these companies are serious about the 3 years experience for junior roles though and on the flip side its a lot easier to not hire someone than to fire someone who doesn't work out after a few months. I thought I'd post an article to give a perspective from the hiring manager:

    http://hub.uberflip.com/h/i/5420719-you-won-t-believe-how-much-money-we-wasted-on-bad-hires-in-2013
     
  5. MorphingDragon, Feb 27, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014

    MorphingDragon thread starter macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #5
    You're going to love what I've attached then. This is going to PROVE I have programming and analytical skills. It's going to reflect my ability to create novel algorithms or break down a problem into its components.

    This was for a test at a company I'm not going to name here. A programming position in an english speaking country...
     

    Attached Files:

  6. samiwas macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    #6
    Yes…this is why they cannot find qualified people. Because their method of finding qualified applicants is completely flawed.

    I forgot to mention, that the one application that my wife did for the entry-level position that had all those dubious requirements, they timed each entry on the application. In some cases, you had to enter dozens of lines of text (like employment history), and they gave you only a minute to enter it. If you didn't make it, the application session ended and you had to start over from scratch. It took her numerous times to even get through it. She found out from some others who had applied that they couldn't even finish it and gave up. Unreal.

    By the way, is the answer 8?
     
  7. twietee macrumors 603

    twietee

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    #7
    That's what I counted. :D
     
  8. MorphingDragon thread starter macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #8
  9. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #9
    int g = 0;

    for (int i=0; i < strlen(s); i++)
    {
    if (s == 'g')
    {
    g++;
    }
    }

    printf("There are %i g's in the paragraph", g);
     
  10. MorphingDragon thread starter macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #10


    I know what you're getting at, but the test wanted only the answer.

    There's an even simpler way my friend. And by simple I mean highly condensed, not so simple and in a completely different language. ;):p

    numGs::String->Integer
    numGs str = count $ filter (\c -> (toLower c) == 'g') str
     
  11. Curun macrumors 6502

    Curun

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2013
    #11
    Some of the unrealistic requirements are attached by HR desk monkeys, not the Technology/Engineering Managers. Keep that in mind. You have a knowledgeable person create a requisition, then 3 or 4 non-technical monkeys blow it out of whack.

    My Boss has had issues with our own HR department, he wanted to fill a role last year. Put out a req, HR put all their garbage in it and published. He had 2 internal applicants he knew applied. Weeks passed, a month, HR kept claiming they had no resume's for him. He had to go climb and nag up the corporate chain to get any movement. The computer systems and HR monkeys are totally bunk.

    Does your Uni not have a career department? The one for my school was fantastic, got jobs for all my buddies. I started Internship at a contract electronics lab in my 2nd year, graduated, had 3 years of industry experience at this point. Stayed with them full time for 2-3 months. Took a full-time job for one of their clients. Then moved to a salary job at a Fortune500 yet another of their clients.

    There was one in-between interview, it did involve me getting up in front of a panel of engineers at a white board and demonstrate circuit knowledge, by working out given problems. This still happens.

    I get headhunters coming to me now representing other Fortune500's, 8 years post grad.
     
  12. samiwas macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    #12
    There's an even simpler way than that:

    Command-f
    g, enter
    Command-g
    Command-g
    Command-g
    Command-g
    Command-g
    Command-g
    Command-g

    The answer is 8.
     
  13. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #13
    Maybe start a company automating the taking of these interview exams.

    "$10 bucks a month and we guarantee an A on every interview examination so that you can get an actual interview!!! Luck you!"

    Feel bad for any recent grads :(

    ----------

    WINNAR! You get the job!!!
     
  14. MorphingDragon thread starter macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #14
    The ones in NZ are kind of useless. They'll help you create you CV etc, but most of the jobs I've gotten at through Uni are talking to lecturers.

    ----------

    Each time I take these tests, whatever enthusiasm I felt for working at the company, I can feel it dying on the inside.

    It's like depression, but not so severe and condensed into half an hour.
     
  15. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Location:
    HR 9038 A
    #15
    What did you major in?

    I'm a recent graduate and recently got my first job in my field. I got the job through networking. Prior to that I spent 2-3 months sending out resumes with little to no replies from employers, with some even saying that I'm overqualified...even though I had no experience in the field.

    Now I'm continuing to network and am going to networking events with Bay Street (Canadian Wall St) professionals. I joined several LinkedIn groups and am in touch with a few professionals through there. Apart from that, I'm really asking everyone I know if they know someone who I can sit down with, whether they have a job for me or not. You're right in the sense that getting face-time with a recruiter is difficult, try contacting them and asking for an information interview to learn more about their company and use the opportunity to let them get to know you.
     
  16. twietee macrumors 603

    twietee

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    #16
    Fully agree with the OP, what I found very irritating/annoying (experienced that when my girlfriend was searching for a job) that most of these kind of employees, larger companies mostly, wouldn't let you know why they didn't hire you. So basically she got invited, often for a follow-up interview / next-stage as well, but when they finally declined wouldn't tell what was the deciding factor at all. I know why they're doing this, it's stupid nonetheless.


    Lucky me, my line of work invites because of portfolios (and network of course).
     
  17. MorphingDragon thread starter macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #17
    Computer Science.

    I go to what little networking opportunities there are in NZ. But IT in general in NZ is stillborn.
     
  18. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Dornbirn (Austria)
    #18
    "counting with your fingers": a top requirement for programmers ;)

    on a serious note: one has also to look at the companies which are hiring, the article posted before from an internet startup has some interesting points, but also in others is really relevant to the fast paced market...

    6 month of work at a company ? at my job, after nearly 3 years, i'm still learning about the operative processes and software details at the company every day, in my IT department we have coordinators & proccess managers who worked in the company for 25 or 35 years and were there when the first computers were introduced or they got the first tailor made software

    when i applied to my current IT/EDI developer job (at a company i worked twice as an intern before) i went through a interview together with the boss and after that a talk with the department.

    the technical expertise details itself turned out not to be THAT useful: like many other mid sized companies a lot of proccess stuff is already done with very specific solutions, which have to be learned on the job anyway.
    i had to learn some rather minor 80ties programming language on the job and a few rather obscure tool based interpreter languages.
    java or c++ nowhere to be seen
     
  19. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Location:
    HR 9038 A
    #19
    I didn't think there were much difficulties with a CS degree nowadays :eek: all my friends who studied CS seem to have had internships since 1st year uni and no trouble finding full-time work, maybe the industry isn't booming as much where you live :(

    Consider doing a bit of self-studying to build more skills you can put on your resume. Also, don't hesitate to apply for entry-level positions that require 1-2 years of experience. I've heard from recruiters that companies often have difficulty filling such positions and would take someone with little to no experience (but a background in the field obviously) to fill the position. Good luck!
     
  20. twietee macrumors 603

    twietee

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    #20
    Gotta show that you understand the basics! And would you hire someone who'd counted 6 g's? ;) jk

    That hiring-guy in that überflip-link is a complete tool imho.

    ----------

    Btw. MorphingDragon, as painful as it is bumming around at your parents, I don't really consider 3 months of job search after leaving uni that much. To find the right fitting job can take a while but is still worth it in the end. To stay enthusiastic and optimistic and not to compromise too much was key for me - I played a lot of soccer during that time myself to keep me sane. :D
     
  21. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Dornbirn (Austria)
    #21
    it is really dependant on the location: in a region/town with lots of internet upstarts and some big IT companies in the background it's very different compared to a region where classic industry production companies are the big players
     
  22. twietee macrumors 603

    twietee

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    #22
    I second that. I'm obviously not in the IT business, but that rule of thump applies to many fields.

    Good luck, too!
     
  23. edk99 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Location:
    FL
    #23
    I'm taking it that your are just out of college and looking for that first job in the tech industry?

    Although I'm 20 years removed from college in the tech industry I can relate to what you are going through. Sometimes you have to look at different jobs at a company and not the one you are really interested in. For example the company I work at we usually hire one or two kids right out of college for tech support each year. A few of them have shown interest in programming and little by little we give them simple programming tasks to do. It might be to track a bug down or make a few simple changes to something. If they are a good fit for our development team we eventually move them over to development. Situations like that have happened numerous times where I work. It is all about getting your foot in the door.

    Once you get your foot in the door things get a lot easier. I started out in consulting which was an awesome way to work at various companies and most importantly to build your network of peers. In the tech industry or really any industry is the #1 thing you can do and in my opinion is a MUST do is networking. With sites like Linkedin it makes it so easy to keep in touch with previous co-workers and acquaintances in your industry.

    After getting my first job in which it took a few months and a dozen interviews, tests and so on my next 5 jobs have all been word of mouth through my network of peers.

    One thing to keep in mind is that public companies have to openly advertise and do interviews for new or open positions. This is even though the a good amount of the time they are filled internally or though someone from the outside that knows someone internally at that company. This is why networking is so important.

    I'm not sure where you live but look on line for user groups in your area. Most big cities have a java, oracle, .net and so on user groups that you could attend and start getting to meet people. Most will have a recruiter their usually from a consulting company looking for people.
     
  24. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    #24
    Of course I'm from that generation where it was perfectly normal to get into both University/Employment, because the interviewer knew your father.

    That was how it was done back in the 1970's.:cool:
     
  25. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Location:
    On tenterhooks
    #25
    And in the 60's you could still work your way up even without advanced education. :cool:

    (Provided you were willing to start at the bottom, and actually earn it.)
     

Share This Page