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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Blue Velvet, Nov 13, 2009.
Ever get the idea that this administration is only just starting to warm up? The floor is yours.
The reason that the Obama administration will insist on measures to give legal status to an estimated 12 million illegal aliens has no relation whatsoever to 12 million illegal aliens legal status or immigration overhaul, but instead the Democrat Party is seeking 12 million new constituents for the 2012 election. In Chicago this is called the dead vote; i.e., counting votes from each Chicago cemetery. I don't begrudge the Obama administration from such campaign tactics, but they have no business whatsoever calling it immigration overhaul!
I can see the headlines already: 12 million people become legal, unemployment tops 25%.
Also I have heard estimates way higher than 12 mil.
Can't we just send them back? We just need to find that damn receipt.
"Under the administrations plan, illegal immigrants would have to register, pay fines and all taxes they owe, pass a criminal background check and learn English."
Shouldn't they make citizens learn it first?
You come up with a way to identify and deport twelve million people that doesn't end up looking a little too uncomfortably like something from 1940s Germany. Hell, forget appearances, come up with a way to do it that doesn't immediately devolve into an actual human rights disaster of historic proportions in its own right.
I'm all for making laws that do what we want and enforcing the laws we make, but few of the "kick 'em out" contingent have given any thought to the logistics of such an operation. "Overwhelming" does not even begin to describe it.
I don't disagree. Karl Rove also wanted to do it:
But I suspect resistance within the Republican Party would have been considerable.
Offer them $10,000 to go back home, fence up the border and/or set up sniper posts, that will create some jobs. If I run into a restricted military base I expect to get shot, might as well use the same principle for our border if there is a high illegal crossover rate.
Illegal immigrants are badly paid, but not that badly, and I'll leave it to you to explain to the teabaggers why we're offering to reward people who broke federal law by handing them a hundred and twenty billion taxpayer dollars.
Ultimately, the illegal aliens should be kicked out. If they didn't come through legal channels, they don't have a right to be here, period. Doesn't "feel good" to say so, but it's as simple as that. Thus the word "illegal." It is a logistical nightmare though--so simply stop offering any sort of government-funded services (aside from emergency medical care) for them, and the big draw to be here will disappear. The big pusher will be non-critical medical services, but throw in the inability to get a driver's license etc. and it'll be a good start.
I'm all for legal immigration--but it's lunacy to reward those who don't do it legally. Yes, that means some people won't get to come...and no, it's not fair. But it's also not fair for legal residents to pick up the tax burden of covering the illegals.
At the end of the day though, it's as simple as that the administration wants to build in an extra 12M votes. If he and his party are on one side of the issue, and the GOP is on the other, it doesn't take an advanced degree to figure out who will get support at the polls from the new people.
Because its cheaper than the alternative. Making sure no one gets back over will be win enough to win them over.
Much less the enormous hit our economy would take by losing 12 million consumers, renters and employees. Especially since they do jobs that few "Americans" want. Can you imagine how loudly all the pro-business repubs would be screaming at having to pay a living wage?
When was the last time you had to prove your citizenship status for anything? You're talking about initiating a witch hunt whose effects normal, legal citizens will feel. And they won't like it.
This is pure conspiracy theory. Despite occasional tough talk, particularly from the fringes, the GOP has never been any tougher on immigration than the Democrats. Amnesty has always enjoyed broad bipartisan support.
Illegal immigrants give the Democrats an opportunity to affect sympathy for the poor, and give the Republicans a whipping boy in public, but in private a way to drive down wages and attack union influence. Both privately recognize both the impossibility of a comprehensive solution and the benefits America receives from a poor and politically powerless underclass to perform menial labor.
Simple solutions are seductive. The reality of illegal immigration in the US is staggeringly complex. Whatever you think the situation ought to be, there's a great big mountain of reality in between you and there.
Good luck selling that to people who think introducing obvious regulations on private insurance companies will instantly convert our nation into the communist atheist socialist nazi facist gay islamic soviet abortionist People's Evil Republic of Namblastan.
They would have to pay minimum wage if we made them citizens, the illegals would then be included in unemployment numbers which would rise dramatically as employers aren't going to hire as many workers even at minimum wage, also your "jobs few Americans would want" is ******** at best.
They already generally do get paid minimum wage, if you don't count true under-the-table work contracted by private citizens (to, say, guys standing out in front of Home Depot). Few employers these days are so dumb as to put themselves in a position where they cannot blink innocently and say, "why, I had no idea these people weren't legal! They sure put one over on me!" Penalties against employers make the veneer of legitimacy a necessity.
A result is that, as most people are surprised to learn, most illegal immigrants are paying income taxes, including social security withholdings into a system they will never be able to benefit from.
Not around here, the big companies subcontract companies (I use this term lightly) who pick up illegals to work under the table. In fact its hard to find a roofing company around here that works without illegals, thats why I just did the job myself.
Also if we are able to keep accurate enough statistics to figure 2/3 of illegals pay taxes we should be able to find where they live and boot them back to their own country. They are most likely breaking secondary laws by stealing social security numbers to use.
Tell me why you people voted for this moron again?
We are going to reward people by giving them citizenship for breaking the law? So the next time they break the law what are we going to give them? Houses? Cars? Vacations to their native homes only to return with more illegals?
I don't know about your forebears, but half of mine came to the US by way of Canada. The guy in my avatar married a woman whose family treated the US/Canada border for what it is, an imaginary line drawn by politicians. Legal or illegal is irrelevant, they crossed when personal whim or financial expediency called.
I'll bet that many "real" Americans have similar stories about their ancestors. But, rather than face up to historical reality, they buy into the myth that all their ancestors came over legally.
Migration is about human desire not about legal fiat.
It was that way when the world was underdeveloped, its changed now. Those same families worked hard to build what we have today, it doesn't make sense to let someone else in on the end game when they have nothing to add in terms of educational superiority or undersupplied job skills.
Its a trade off, you give us your desirable skills/education and we let you live here, if you have nothing to trade, we don't.
Let me assure you if you are highly educated and have years of experience professionally you won't have an issue getting into the US.
My ancestors were natives. Killed out probably by your ancestors "migrating". This is a ridiculous argument.
We have laws today that give specifics on how to become a citizen. Those who were here before the laws came into place are grandfathered and are considered citizens. Those that came after the laws must fulfill the laws to be citizens.
I just dont understand the need to reward lawbreakers with citizenship. Deport them, tell them the right way to become a citizen, and tell them to get in line legally.
And what's wrong with having to prove your citizenship? Make that a requirement for a drivers' license etc. Non-critical hospital care? If you want help picking up the tab, then you have to prove that you're a citizen and appropriately paid into the system. Nothing too draconian there.
You're absolutely right that both parties have been soft on illegal immigration recently--Bush pandered to them so he wouldn't lose support while he was in office, too. It's always easier to object when you're not the one in power--so it happens a lot more. "Whatever you think the situation ought to be, there's a great big mountain of reality in between you and there." Yes, and I'm sure you're fully qualfied to make that statement yourself
And since you chose to throw in a reference to stupid deregulation advocates on the right, just remember this--it was Clinton who signed off on repealing Glass-Steagall.
Think how it makes you feel every time a store tries to make you queue up to have some goon by the door check your receipt against the things you bought. Yes, theft happens, and it is a legitimate concern, but treating your best customers like potential thieves erodes their good will and makes them feel less personally attached to an organization that overtly doesn't trust them. The history of societies with a "papers, please" mindset is, if anything, a less glowing recommendation. People say "I have nothing to hide," but use that as an excuse to tolerate being treated as if they do. This sort of thing ought to be taught as a textbook example of psychological double-bind theory.
That doesn't even begin to touch the technical and logistical mechanisms by which such verification can happen. That's not simple. It may not even be tractable.
Don't pretend you can look at my response to one issue and infer my opinion on any other issue. I don't think you even understand my position on this issue. I know it's confusing, but I may not be playing your political team sport.
The solution to America's illegal immigration issues are over my head, and since I've already long since latched onto and investigated the issues surrounding such simplistic solutions as yours, I'm as qualified as I need to be for purposes of this conversation.
My working hypothesis is that the problem is a bit over everybody's head, and that this, not one side or the other's ridiculous partisan conspiracy theory (which, in this case, is often the same theory with roles reversed), is the real reason little ever changes.
The really interesting thing to watch is how each side uses the issue, without ever changing anything, to build a narrative to manipulate you into taking a side whose only purpose is to shout at the other side about how neither of them ever does anything. Both sides are relying on your sense of justice, but different (and predictable) interpretations of "justice" to persuade you that a politically dogmatic solution is the only option that's tolerable even though each side's dogma is too abstract to be practical.
I don't know how to solve this problem. All I know is no amount of self-righteousness will. Because we've tried that, a lot.
Please, don't encourage them; they come up with enough of these silly ideas on their own.
Please, do you really think that this will be enforced? You are insane, if you think that this will ever happen.
Crossing an arbitrary line they were born on the other side of. What a heinous crime.