Who Can Beat the Republicans?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by stevento, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. stevento macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #1
    i was at a hillary event today (the los angeles branch of her town hall) and the congressman that introduced Antonio Villaraigosa (mayor) made a good point.

    can obama win?
    John Kerry was fantastic. a great inspirational candidate. but he got swiftboated by the republican attack machine.
    now obama did coke and i'm not holding it against him but will undecided voters see it that way? and there's alot of other stuff in his past that they can throw at him. of course i dont care what he did was he was 17. but they might be able to make something up and throw it at him
    will republicans be able to pull some BS out of thin air and trick idiot undecided voters into believing it? it worries me.
    you cannot swiftboat hillary clinton. she's been taking their hits for 16 years and she aint gone yet. the republican attack machine is formidable, but so is the clinton machine and hillary doesn't bow down to attacks; we know that much. this is why i think obama will make a great running mate
     
  2. forafireescape macrumors 6502a

    forafireescape

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    #2
    I see your point, although I don't think most voters will freak out about some drugs he took when he was a teenager. You could argue the same thing about Hillary. A lot of people hate her - will they vote for a GOP candidate just to keep her out of office?

    Note - I am a Hillary fan. She's had my vote from the start. But I'm just saying, it could go either way.
     
  3. thebassoonist macrumors 6502a

    thebassoonist

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    #3
    I think Hillary is too polarizing. And as much as I would love to like her, I just can't. The Republicans can attack her, and she will attack back.

    The Republicans can attack Barack, but he will probably just shrug and be honest about his past. It's hard to attack someone who is honest enough to tell the American people that he did coke.

    I am going to vote for Barack tomorrow, but I like Hillary a million times more than Romney and Huckawas, and about one hundred times more than McCain and Paul.
     
  4. stevento thread starter macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #4
    yeah but what if they make something up like
    "we have reports that obama's gang leaders want to speak the truth about him" or something crazy like that and people believe it?
    you cant mess with hillary like that
     
  5. killerrobot macrumors 68020

    killerrobot

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    #5
    Why do you keep starting new threads about Clinton vs. Obama?
    Why don't you just keep posting it all in the same thread?
    Why do many keep responding that Obama is the RIGHT candidate, but yet you have to open another thread because you are never satisfied?

    More importantly, why do I keep responding on your threads?????!!!!!
     
  6. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #6
    He can't afford that in the General Election. The first rule of electoral politics is "leave no shot unanswered."

    Shrugging and being honest would only work once or twice at most (people like the novelty of honest politicians) but after that Obama would be forced to either retaliate or go on the defensive about his past.
     
  7. thebassoonist macrumors 6502a

    thebassoonist

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    #7
    "New evidence in the case of Vince Foster has surfaced."

    I think that they could do that to any candidate.
     
  8. forafireescape macrumors 6502a

    forafireescape

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    #8
    I agree. I'm a huge H-dawg fan but I'm sure she's got dirt, just like everyone else.
     
  9. thebassoonist macrumors 6502a

    thebassoonist

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    #9
    Huh, interesting point. I don't know. I've never ran for Office.

    I guess if people don't want a seemingly honest president, than Obama is probably the wrong choice. Americans do like a fight.
     
  10. motulist macrumors 601

    motulist

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    #10
    Oh please, at this point it's pretty much an accepted fact that nobody would get the republicans out to vote for their party's nominee more than Hillary as the democratic ticket. And more and more high profile republican leaders are saying that they would vote for obama over the current republican contenders.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/107476
     
  11. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #11
    It isn't a matter of Americans wanting a fight, it's more a matter of how successful the opposing machine is. It's almost like a Catch 22. If you answer honestly all the time, the opposing side claims you're not right for the job because you can't be trusted.

    If you lie, the opposing side will invest more time and money trying to catch you in your lies.

    The end game is really determined by which side can prevent the most attacks from surfacing, and can successfully deflect those attacks that do surface.

    So here's the question: Is Obama honest to the point where he would be Republican fodder, or is he a clever politician that knows how to win a primary?
     
  12. thebassoonist macrumors 6502a

    thebassoonist

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    #12
    And they really only have to plant a seed like that. They never have to follow up on it (or it can be something as simple as, "Oops, we were wrong; we fired the person that came up with that) and many people will continue to believe it. Kind of like how someone near and dear to me still believes the Swift Boat thing is for real... AKA my father

    I don't know. I don't think anyone does. Except for him, of course.
     
  13. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #13
    You're right, we don't know yet. However, based on how Obama is a very clever person who seems to be very bright, I think it's more likely that he knows how to win a primary.

    I personally will still vote for Hillary tomorrow (as the OP mentioned, Clinton has survived attack after attack since '93 and she's still here) and I think that even if she is more likely to draw Republican fire, she'll be better able to counter it than Obama.

    Obama won't be shielded forever. If he's chosen as the official candidate, the Republicans aren't going to let him off any easier than the would Clinton.

    The only difference with Hillary is that we've heard most of what there is to say against her already. At some point people stop listen to broken records.

    The stuff the Republicans dig up on Obama will be fresh meat.

    [/extreme cynicism]
     
  14. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #14
    I think that Hillary Clinton is too polarizing to win the general election. She would haveenough people hating her that many more people would come out to vote just to keep her out of office. Obama will be able to get some of he more moderate Republicans and independents to vote for him who otherwise wouldn't vote or would vote for McCain.
     
  15. forafireescape macrumors 6502a

    forafireescape

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    #15
    Yeah...but McCain's not polarizing; most Republicans would vote for him. He's a pretty Republican-ish candidate, so I don't think Obama being the other candidate would necessarily take votes from him.
     
  16. motulist macrumors 601

    motulist

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    #16
    Are you just making stuff up off the top of your head? Everything I've read from mainstream and independent sources alike all say that many republicans don't like McCain and would vote for a non-republican if he was their party's nominee.

    http://www.google.com/search?num=10...ult&cd=1&q=mccain+republican+limbaugh&spell=1

    http://www.google.com/search?num=10...q=mccain+republican+"ann+coulter"&btnG=Search

    ... and many more.
     
  17. thebassoonist macrumors 6502a

    thebassoonist

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    #17
    About the countering attacks, one complaint that I hear often about Hillary is that she is a "bitch." I find that word completely offensive (unless when speaking of actual bitches) and it is used by bigoted people whenever a woman has power.

    This is one thing I worry about as a woman. The fact that we live in a patriarchy, we are told that we should be powerless and any woman that acts powerful is labeled. Someone pointed this out above, that Republicans are choosing Obama over Clinton. Call me a crazy feminist, but I do wonder if this is because of gender. Obama and Clinton are so similar on so many things and for some reason I've never heard Obama referred to as a bastard. I've also heard (Hillary) Clinton referred to as a man. I guess it is unacceptable for a woman to be "tomboyish." I friend of mine made the argument that Obama is like an "Oreo cookie" (I honestly do not mean to offend anyone, I'm just quoting). It's probably more acceptable for a "Black" man to act "White" than a woman to act "masculine".

    We can be blind to sex and gender, but I think this might sadly make a difference in the end.

    As the daughter and sister of women lawyers, I've heard time and time again that women usually will not support women in law firms when they are up to make partner. Men usually don't either.

    Some of my extended family are Republicans (changed to independent for the Utah primary) and are voting for Obama. They are LDS (I was shocked to hear that they are not voting Romney). I wonder why they chose Obama. Was it because of his policies (which are very similar to Clinton's) or is it because it has been ingrained into their heads, again, that women shouldn't or can't hold power.

    I've talked to my family about why they think Hillary isn't electable. They say she sounds calculated and she is too mean. But what is an electable woman supposed to be like? Soft? Sweet? Attractive (how many times I have heard Hillary is ugly... it's ridiculous, we don't hold men up to the same standards)? Or maybe (I think this might be it) the first woman we elect has to be conservative.

    Many of my arguments (and other arguments as well) can be made the same for ethnicity or that social construct we call race. But this is just something to think about. And to many people, gender and ethnicity do not matter as much as to others. But how much does it matter to the independents and cross-over Republicans?

    Fascinating election, and I don't think we can lose with Hillary or Obama.
     
  18. motulist macrumors 601

    motulist

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    #18
  19. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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  20. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #20
    I don't think Hillary could win against McCain. They are both very much disliked both in their party and out, but the difference is that Republicans hate Hillary more than any other person on this earth. I think that even with someone the right-wing hates running as their candidate, they'll suck it up and vote for anybody to keep Hillary out of office.

    I could be wrong, of course. I think against Romney, Hillary will do fine, but I don't feel comfortable with her odds against McCain. Obama would win against either of them, for sure. I hope tomorrow works out in his (and this countries) favor.

    EDIT: See the article motulist posted above. She won't fare well in the general election if she gets the nomination.
     
  21. stevento thread starter macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #21
     
  22. stevento thread starter macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #22
    but they've been doing it to hillary for 20 years and she's still prominent. obama is fresh, we dont know what it'll do to him.
     
  23. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #23
    But this also works against her. People are used to hearing (and believing) scandalous information about the Clintons. With Obama bringing people who would never vote for Hillary to the table, the mud slinging may not stick as easily. People don't want to hear bad things about the candidates they like and might actually go through the effort to verify, where they might not with Clinton since they've been hearing the scandals for years now.
     
  24. zioxide macrumors 603

    zioxide

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    #24
    It basically comes down to this:

    If it comes down to McCain vs Hillary, McCain is going to be President. He'll get most of the independents and even the republicans who don't like him will vote for him because they won't want Hillary.

    If it comes down to Obama vs McCain, Obama will probably win. He'll be able to bring out many independents and even some republicans (see http://www.republicansforobama.org).
     
  25. Mike Teezie macrumors 68020

    Mike Teezie

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    #25
    Inspirational? John Kerry? I voted for him, and I didn't find him inspirational, or a great candidate.

    But assuming your logic, if they can take a thrice decorated war hero and slag him through the mud enough to make a difference, how can they not "swiftboat" Hillary?

    I belive the Republicans are salivating over the idea of running against HRC. They have the benefit of the most indoctrinated, blind, intense hatred of the woman on their side. People hate her. Hate. That's before the all the scandal digging players from the 90's get going again.

    If John McCain is the Republican nominee, and Hillary the Democratic, after the lowest general election voter turnout in history we'll have another Republican president.

    And to the fact that Barack did coke, well, so did the Dub.
     

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