Who Elects These Creatures?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Desertrat, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #1
    Alas, poor Maryland! The mouth-breathers are in full song!

    They want serial numbers on bullets, to match a serial number inside the cartridge case!

    From http://mlis.state.md.us/2008rs/bills/hb/hb0517f.pdf you can scroll about halfway down to 5-603, (A) (2) for the absolute idiocy. Futility exemplified.

    "Each serial number is engraved in a manner that allows for a substantial likelihood that the serial number may be identified after ammunition discharge and bullet impact..."

    What sort of strange thought process sees this as anywhere near rational? Can't put the number on the front, obviously; nor on the sides which are distorted by travel down the barrel. The base? We're supposed to believe that a law can repeal the metallic properties of lead? It won't suffer any deformation from temperatures around 2,000 degrees, and pressures from 12,000 to 35,000 pounds per square inch?

    Okay, so we repeal the "lead laws" of nature. I note in passing that revolvers do not eject the cartridge case, so numbering the inside of the case solves nothing. Nobody knows how to do that sort of thing, anyway.

    Just for .22 cartridges, at 50 per box, divide a billion by 50. That's how many discrete serial numbers would be required just for that one sort, based on historic annual sales. I have no idea how many tens of millions of boxes of other pistol cartridges would require these discrete numbers.

    So how do you come up with a code that will physically fit an object that's a quarter-inch to one-half inch in diameter, with this many separate numbers?

    Make me believe that criminals will worry one iota about such laws. Make me believe that it won't hassle ONLY the honest citizen. Make me believe that legislators have any concern for the right of honest citizens to be left alone to mind their own affairs in peace and quiet. Or honest business people to not be saddled with more wasted paperwork effort. Or any concern for the cost to the taxpayer for the wasted time and effort of more bureaucrats and more paperwork.

    This is merely a way to say, "We don't do any good with gun-control laws, so we'll make it impossible to sell ammunition in Maryland." And it's off to the courtroom for the lawsuit concerning restraint of trade...

    People actually vote for these sorts of minds? And even re-elect them? Elect them to create more paperwork and thus more dead trees?

    God save the Republic...

    'Rat
     
  2. Everythingisnt macrumors 6502a

    Everythingisnt

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    #2
    The serial numbers inside cartridge cases are even now rather ineffective, as well as the serial numbers on guns. It's incredibly easy for anyone who knows what they're doing to remove those numbers and thus void the entire point. I don't see how serial numbers on BULLETS will help things.
     
  3. Roger1 macrumors 65816

    Roger1

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  4. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #4
    Then it's a good thing there are an awful lot of numbers out there... :p
     
  5. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

    Daveman Deluxe

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    #5
    mactastic: you clearly don't understand maths.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MiMWJ1xBo8w

    "The largest number is about forty-five billion, although mathematicians suspect that there may be even larger numbers!"
     
  6. stevegmu macrumors regular

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    #6
    The Dems in MD were emboldened after the 'fine' people of the state chose to elect M. O'Malley, rather than re-elect Gov. R. Ehrlich. Since then, Maryland has become a sanctuary city for illegals, has tried to pass helmet laws for children walking on public sidewalks and those playing soccer, tried to outlaw smoking on public streets, restaurants, and for those who live in townhouses, and has let PG County become a laughing stock for its corruption, and crime. I'm surprised they just don't try to outlaw firearms entirely.
     
  7. Everythingisnt macrumors 6502a

    Everythingisnt

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    #7
    haha.. hahaha.. too bad the people who made this law haven't watched that.
     
  8. ham_man macrumors 68020

    ham_man

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    #8
    Thank God the good people of Maryland elected the esteemed and honorable Thomas Carcetti governor!
     
  9. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #9
    Hmm... a janitorial job at a pistol range and a box of five hundred lead fishing weights, please.

    Why in the world do we allow politicians to pretend they know anything about security?
     
  10. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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    #10
    Hahaha. I love it :).
     
  11. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #11
    Don't laugh. It's worse than you think. This sort of legislation has been introduced in fifteen states! There's a national organization, with a website:

    http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm

    Me being a numbers guy: Assume ALL handgun homicides take, say, three bullets each. That's some 36,000 shots fired per year. That's 720 boxes of 50 rounds, per year. Now, we know there are more than 720 murderous crooks, right? So it's obvious that no crook does all that much shooting in any given year. A box of ammo is gonna last Our Hero for a long, long time. So he lays in a couple of boxes and it's ten or fifteen years before the first numbered bullet shows up in some Late Lamented. And, 99.99% odds are that you can't read any number...

    I'm underwhelmed.

    "Ignorance is no excuse for a law." -- Tamara ( http://www.booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com )
     
  12. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #12
    If one wants to commit a murder, what's to stop one from simply using one of the billions of bullets manufactured before they passed the bill?
     
  13. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #13
    http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Technology.htm
     
  14. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #14
    well if they have so high success numbers then why not ?

    perhaps it makes some people more responsible in keeping ammunition safe, make somebody think twice about doing something bad and catch some idiots commiting crimes


    and paperwork issues ? seriously how difficult is it to scan a box with a barcode scanner and enter a few information ...
    if you buy ammunition that often then i would think your problem isn't paperwork

    also on serial numbers: you don't have to span them across all types.. after all you can start at 0 every single ammunition type... or to make the number space even bigger simply use an additional manufacturer code to split it up further

    also where does it say it has to use numbers ? if you take ciphers and letters you get an aweful lot more


    let's say you have 12 digits (repeated a few times or whatever)

    with numbers it's

    1 trillion serial numbers
    not really that much

    with numbers + letters (26+10= 36^12 instead of 10^12) it's

    4.738.381.338.320.000.000
    serial numbers .. or in words:

    4.7 quintillion (US wording):
    still sure that US american fire more rounds than that ?

    and if you think that's still not enough simply add lower/uppercase distinction

    that's 62^12
    or 3.226.266.762.400.000.000.000 or 3.2 sextillions


    with that you could easily reduce the amount of digits down from 12 to somehow manageable levels to fit the serial more often on it ... you simply have to add more different symbols
     
  15. Full of Win macrumors 68030

    Full of Win

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    #15

    Saying this from the land of Glock. :eek:

    Why not: Becase the UN (or US .gov) will have a database to use when they want to round up the firearms. I'll have lost all mine in a deep sea boating accident by then, but still, I don't want the feds to even know that I have them.
     
  16. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #16
    a shovel company who just happens to make pistols ?
    make that Steyr-Mannlicher

    i'm gonna remember you when it's time to send the Totenkopf-Troops out again ;)
     
  17. live4ever macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Don't all the guns in the U.S.A. have DNA tagging of bullets yet (like in Judge Dredd or was it Demolition Man)?
     
  18. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #18
    takao, you have to put this on the back of a bullet! Space! Survivability under temperature and pressure! We're not talking some sort of magic unobtainum as the material, okay?

    Then you get into the millions of dollars of cost for this wondrous equipment to "etch" these numbers.

    And after you've done all this, it won't help. How will you know ahead of time that some crook's ammo is "registered"? Or anybody elses? Stop everybody on the street, "Sir, do you have a gun? I need to disassemble one round to see if your ammunition is properly registered."? Bat guano.

    Remember, you're dealing with millions of dollars' worth of existing ammo, and billions of rounds of ammo per year.

    Add in the tens of thousands of reloaders, and the thousands who cast their own bullets.

    miloblithe, I've been messing with guns and ammo for many, many decades. Some things are just flat-out not believable. I can see a limited fashion for a few deeply etched or engraved codings to remain after firing, on special materials. But plain old lead? Duh?

    And the vast majority of our 12,000 handgun homicides per year are already solved--without magic.

    I'm reminded very much of the 1920s effort on the part of the Tennessee legislature to pass a law making Pi = 3.00000000000000000000...
     
  19. fridgeymonster3 macrumors 6502

    fridgeymonster3

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    #19
    Basically everyone here is saying the legislation is idiotic, mostly because it will probably be ineffective. I agree, if serial numbers can be gotten of rid of now than they mostly likely can no matter what. However, if everything has a serial number on it (which does seem a little ridiculous) than maybe something will fall through the cracks. If the legislation saves 10% more lives, by just catching criminals before their next crime than I am all for it. Why not?
     
  20. Roger1 macrumors 65816

    Roger1

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    Michigan
    #20
    Don't forget trying to put all those numbers on birdshot :p

    If I ever buy a gun, I guess I'll make my own ammo.
     
  21. fridgeymonster3 macrumors 6502

    fridgeymonster3

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    #21
    I think it would be easy to tell who purchased which bullets - just have the serial number on the receipt like they do for expensive purchases (i.e. Apple computers). Than the person's name would be logged into the computer along side that serial number, and all each store would have to do is upload that list into a national database every week or so.

    Of course, the person who buys the bullets might not be responsible for where they show up, or others could buy them just to resell them, etc., etc. But if a law saves peoples lives, than that's great.
     
  22. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #22
    This, more so than 'Rat's objections, strikes me as the major problem with this plan. There's no way to track rounds once they're sold.

    Furthermore, how does this save lives? This is a forensic tool, meaning that in order for this to be useful, you are digging the rounds out of a body or from the scene of a murder.

    The impracticalities of such a system seem too numerous.

    @'Rat, just an idea, but isn't the rifling and firing pin strike of each gun fairly unique? Maybe each gun could be fired before sale and then placed into a registry. In this way, a specific gun could be tracked from point-of-sale to the bullet in a murder scene?
    I can think of a problem searching this kind of database (not to mention the numerous guns already out there), but what do you think of this?
     
  23. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #23
    so that's why they very likely put the number on it multiple times and in multiple spots

    for companies who very likely made billions while still using the same equipment from 50 years ago it's hardly breaking their banks

    you know in europe they are laser marking eggs to trace them back to the farm it came from

    obviously since they wouldn't put the serial in the cartridge as well ... that would be too much black magic right ?
    so that million dollar equipment will produce billions of rounds per year and that for perhaps 20-30 years ? wow what an investment

    sorry i don't remember that guns are required by law to be cheap ...

    also it might reduce the time/cost needed for police investigations(isotope testing on bullets or whatever) and thus save some major _taxpayer_ money as you like it so much

    since in your own words there are billions of bullets sold every year this is a minority right ?

    there are more than 500 million of transistors on a chip the size of back of a bullet
    15 years ago it broke the 1 million barrier
    (actually there are chips with up to 1 billion of transistors like the itanium 2 .. and that was 3 years ago and expensive)

    putting on a few numbers on a projectile is a lot less unbelievable for me

    actually other western countries have better ratios .. austria solves around 95% of all homicides... and that is average compared to some other countries in europe like switzerland and germany where it's around 98%

    well it's 2008 and i expect a little bit in terms of science than producing rounds like it is still 1900

    after all it has been standard on everything bigger than machine-guns since decades .. i don't buy the "it's too complicated" excuse when pretty much every single thing you can get has a serial/production charge imprinted engraved

    also please don't leave out that even ammunition has expiring dates (that's why we were able to generously fire fully automatic with exercise and real ammunition during army service ... we had plenty of ammunition to use before it was graded "unsafe")
     
  24. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #24
    actually i think if you sign up with your name when buying ammunition you then would think twice before reselling it to sombody you hardly know or unsure how he will use it because after all you will be the one the police will visit
    i think it can be an effective tool to un-encourage trading such stuff

    some manufacturer are doing this already ... afaik glock is required to do so when importing the guns into the US

    that said it doesn't remove the problem of illegal guns the US has amassed and exported over the decades
    (as said in another thread majority of illegal guns are coming from the US around here and not from the eastern block)
     
  25. stevegmu macrumors regular

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    #25
    Since when do criminals use legally registered/purchased firearms/ammunition? Most criminals use stolen firearms.
     

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