Who here is liberal like me but believes Trump is bringing up good points?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 63dot, Jul 9, 2015.

  1. 63dot, Jul 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015

    63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #1
    I see it as either bad points and bad delivery, good points and bad delivery, or perhaps both good and bad points with his usual bad delivery. Much of what he says is garbage but sometimes he does bring up points people think about but politicians on both sides won't ever bring up while running for office.

    ......................

    So it's established he's probably in it for publicity for his "name" brand like all the other times. Few doubt that. He's the same carnival barker as he has always been.

    I know he was a democrat very recently and his party hopping shows he doesn't have too many long held beliefs.

    He's a hypocrite and employs illegal aliens, and there are some who say he may have even brought them over from California from projects there to work in New York. Besides hiring them, he's moving them around and certainly taking away American jobs while all this time railing against Mexico?

    ...................

    However, he does bring up some issues that we in border states have seen like crime, cartels, and street violence. Though much of the violence is between existing Hispanic gangs and only some new illegal immigrants who come here, and very rarely involves anybody outside of those two groups, it still brings crime to our streets.

    Though it's obvious many jobs that illegal immigrants come to do wouldn't easily bring in American citizens to apply, there have to be a certain number of jobs that illegal immigrants (including Donald's personal construction crew members) who do take away American jobs.

    And because he has no intention of running and knows he can't win the GOP primaries later on when all the other issues come about that he knows nothing about, he has the freedom right now to say what many republicans think regarding illegal immigration but are too scared to talk about in fear that they may fail as dismally as Mitt Romney did with the Hispanic vote in 2012.

    But I think Trump brings up some good points, though inelegantly stated most of the time in an insincere fashion.
     
  2. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #2
    I think we need to be very careful about conflating different issues.

    There is no doubt that the Mexican drug war - a combination of rivalries between various Mexican cartels for control of markets and supply routes, along with an ongoing battle between various criminal groups and elements of the Federal and state Mexican law enforcement apparatus - has seen some truly horrifying levels of violence. But it is also true to say that, with a very few exceptions, this war has remained on the Mexico side of the border.

    Its also true that, despite recent economic growth in Mexico and increases in the level of border security, large number of undocumented Mexicans move to the United States. This may have something to do with the violence of the Mexican drug war. It also has something to do with people simply looking for an opportunity to create a better future for themselves.

    But one thing is most definitely true: recent immigrants - from Mexico and elsewhere - are absolutely not responsible for the majority of the violent crime, on the streets or elsewhere, that takes place in the United States. That, statistically at least, an undocumented alien is far less likely to be involved in crime of any sort that natural-born citizens.

    We need to be concerned about the Mexican drug war. We need to be concerned about large numbers of illegal and undocumented aliens moving to and living in our country. And we need to be concerned about the level of violent crime in US society in general.

    But they are three completely separate issues. In other words: Mexican drug cartels are not sending killers, posing as gardeners and fry cooks, across the Rio Grande to murder us in our beds. There is no profit in it for them, so they simply don't don't do it.
     
  3. 63dot, Jul 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #3
    ^^^^^^^^^ lot's of great points!

    Trump certainly has a way of conflating stuff, and even making stuff up.

    I wish he left out the rapists and killers comments, which are statistically outliers anyway, but stuck to the issue of large numbers crossing border and how it affects jobs. The heinous killing in San Francisco and the timing of that played into the hands of Trump's ridiculous comments. When the facts come out and it's realized just how rare that case was, people may start to ask Trump about the other dozens of important GOP platform issues and he will be at a loss. I can't wait for GOP debates and see how the rest question Trump. The Donald is not used to people challenging him, but the GOP representatives, governors, and senators do this for a living and will tear him up.

    However on CNN where there was a panel of republicans and democrats slamming Trump, which is something both seem to agree on (Trump being flat out racist which the dems don't like, and Trump making GOP look bad and taking attention away from GOP issues). Trump may be a big headache but one of the democratic panelists mentioned that the issue with the border is serious and both parties have not properly addressed it. From the context of the conversation, I think they were talking about jobs where the conversation moved to, away from Trump's ridiculous rapists and killers rhetoric.
     
  4. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #4
    There is little or some truth in almost everything that's said politically. The problem is, the level of exaggeration easily turns statements of specific topics into complete nonsense. And Trump is as exaggerated as one can get.
     
  5. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #5
    What the news channels need to do is get all the heated statements he put up against the GOP just a few years ago. I am sure his GOP challengers will bring this up in the debate.

    How is Trump going to negotiate all the pictures with key democrats as friends and partners, and the monies he gave to democratic campaigns? Did Trump just become a republican overnight?

    His exaggeration is his trademark and even the bad press he gets from it turns into a plus for him. Like him or hate him, he's a master of making the people who hate him be his fuel. Bad press hurts others but for Trump it makes him look even more like "the Donald". What would totally put this to rest if we one day don't care about him and relegate him to the trash heap that are the Lyndon Larouches of politics.

    Right now in the GOP race with so many different, and qualified candidates, an unqualified man with huge name recognition is leading but that's no surprise. Sonny Bono and Arnold Swartzeneggar got far with their name recognition, but for POTUS we are talking a different game and people will go with the safe person who is an experienced politician, not a reality TV superstar.

    When it comes to foreign policy, GOP alternatives to Obamacare, trade, Wall Street regulation, fracking, and many other issues, Trump will not be able to shout his way out of that one. He's a one issue guy who is riding high while the topic of immigration is having its 15 minutes of fame on CNN.
     
  6. ElectronGuru macrumors 65816

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    #6
    That trump is making underserved points says more about the vacuum of sensibility in our political system than anything complimentary about trump himself. In the desert, even a wet rock looks delicious.
     
  7. iBlazed macrumors 68000

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    #7
    I, for one, LOVE that Trump is running. He says what every Republican wants to say but don't have the balls to. He represents pure, unfiltered, GOP values. This way, the American people can see what his party really stands for. And it seems they don't like what they see...
     
  8. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #8
    I think he's nuts. Or terminally in love with himself.
     
  9. Huntn macrumors G5

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    #9
    The problem all ready said is that primarily he is selling his brand by pandering to the right with inflammatory racially based wedge issues, spouting conflagatory ideas who no realistic solutions. I am also against illegal aliens taking construction jobs and am waiting for a real solution. A barricaded border is an imperfect, colossal waste of time and money. Create a legitimate work program for aliens, for the jobs no one in this country seems to like, and go after the employers, something I'm convinced Republicans are not willing to do.
     
  10. 63dot, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

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    #10
    With so called fence who do you think will bid for this?

    Good or bad it's what made billionaires who they are. H Ross Perot had no problem "solving" govt waste issues by having his company be in the mix, and something he had no intention of having to step down from had he become president. If a fence is built one day, expect a bad hair day skyscraper building billionaire from New York putting in a bid. ;)
     
  11. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #11
    Walls never work. Building a wall is an admission that you've run out of good ideas.
     
  12. Praxis91 macrumors regular

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    #12
    So let's rip out that spiked fence that surrounds the WH.

    Walls do work, but they should never be the sole method. You could also issue massive fines on illegal aliens and their employers. You can also then refuse funding to sanctuary cities since they are ignoring laws.

    I guess we can all ignore laws of our choosing now, right?
     
  13. ElectronGuru macrumors 65816

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    #13
    You could also change the US policies that are shredding the countries these refugees are escaping from.
     
  14. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #14
    You're focusing on enforcement, which is a band-aid at best.

    You're ignoring the causes of the problem because they are complicated and hard to fix. Building walls and throwing people back out of the country is simple and easy to understand, so it appeals to many. Helping to solve problems in Mexcio and Central America that we've contributed heavily to, and that create the conditions that push people to become illegal immigrants? Now that's hard...

    As long as Mexico remains poor and stratified, a convenient backyard sweatshop for the US with a corrupt government and a terrifyingly powerful criminal element feeding off the US's insatiable appetite for illicit recreational drugs, many Mexicans have little to lose by trying their luck in the US as illegal immigrants.
     
  15. impulse462 Suspended

    impulse462

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    #15
    What is the point of this thread? In the John McCain thread you were lamenting at Trump because how dare anyone question someone like McCain who served in the military and chastising him for the fact that he grew up in wealth. Wow god forbid he use every advantage given to him to transfer to a better school and become more successful. I guess we should just be content with where we are in life and not try to go further, because really who are we to ask that? What if he didn't become super rich despite being born with a silver spoon? I wonder what you'd say about that. No doubt you'd whine and complain some BS about how "to whom much is given, much is expected" Now in this thread you're saying Trump isn't elegant in the way he expresses his views, that he's incapable of winning any primaries, and that his stance on many issues (except for one) is wrong.
     
  16. 63dot, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #16
    Trump is going to say everything that comes to his mind and that's his style. It works well sometimes and other times it backfires.

    On the negative, well, we saw what he said about McCain and how furious many republicans got. Interestingly, and probably for self serving reasons, liberals seemed very quiet on this issue knowing that Trump damaged the republican brand more than any liberal could hope to do. I certainly believe Hilary Clinton is very happy with what is going on. Just as Clinton was losing ground to Sanders and hurting Clinton's overall polls, her numbers took an upward turn for the first time after the gaffs from Trump. People who were on the fence, but liberal or moderate, decided to put their vote in for Hilary as probably a reaction against Trump.

    At the same time, Ted Cruz's small but built-in numbers that were in existence from his strong stance against illegal immigration dropped as supporters changed their vote to Trump. Naysayers who think Trump is just a flash in the pan are not looking at how profoundly he is affecting the GOP in a negative way and actually helping Hilary Clinton. All the talk about Hilary being the establishment candidate and other criticisms are taking a backseat to all the attention that is on Trump.

    But on the positive Trump may bring up issues politicians in both parties are too scared to bring up.

    Trump may have permanently destroyed his chances in the GOP with his attack on McCain and most recently saying that Rick Perry wears glasses as to look smart, and that Lindsey Graham is an idiot and (allegedly) giving out his cell number. Many may hate Perry and Graham and think that they are in fact stupid, but Trump's style has helped cement a solid 31% percent of registered republicans who said in a Fox News survey that they will never vote for Trump in the general election. There's nobody out there who is more polarizing that Trump and his ability to divide is even more profound than that of other republicans like John Boehner now, or Ron Paul a few years ago.

    At the same time the original issue he started with, illegal immigration, continues to be a huge issue that both parties have a long record of inactivity on and this issue will live on long after the 2016 election and Donald Trump. If there ever is a much better approach to this problem solved by the democrats or republicans, or both, some may one day thank Mr. Trump for bringing this up to the forefront.

    Trump's racist sounding remarks towards Mexicans won't be celebrated, but the serious focus on the issue of illegal immigration at the Mexican border.

    To me the issue is neither racist nor politically correct, and it's neither republican nor democrat, but a serious issue that every American should look at based solely on economics. What jobs Americans lose due to illegal immigration and not democratic jobs or republican jobs, but jobs, period.
     
  17. rdowns macrumors Penryn

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    #17
    So Lindsey Graham called Trump a jackass and Trump, while campaigning in SC gave out his cell phone number. What a dick.
     
  18. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #18
    I totally can't stand either person, and any liberal or moderate who doesn't know who Graham (another GOP warmonger) is, they only need to use Wikipedia or Google. And be ready to be thoroughly disgusted. He, he, I may call Graham just to tell him how much I don't like his stances. ;)

    They are both dicks. A
    ctually I don't like any of the republicans.
     
  19. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #19
    Trump's popularity is a reflection of the bigoted views of a certain segment of the population (which he voices) rather than any political savvy on his part.

    Politically though, Trump is a flash in the pan, a flash kept burning far beyond its time through his own personal fortune.
     
  20. SwiftLives macrumors 65816

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    #20
    Trump's supporters really want a president who is going to be arrogant, cocky, and an overall jackass. Many people equate that sort of attitude with strength.

    I mean, if Trump can criticize a war hero and dox a fellow candidate and still stay in the lead, then there's absolutely no incentive for him to anything differently.
     
  21. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #21
    As I said before, people like it because they flatter themselves that they are in on the joke, when they are in fact the butt of it.
     
  22. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #22
    An American President said many years ago: Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick.

    Its not, perhaps, the most profound piece of oratory ever uttered by a Chief Executive; but there is a great deal to be said for its fundamental wisdom- especially as it relates to the American Presidency.

    And I'm afraid that ideal - speaking softly - is utterly lost on today's Republicans; and especially a large subset of their voters. Whenever I hear someone calling for "toughness" on any issue - be it ISIS, illegal immigration; crime; welfare dependency; government spending; Iran; etc. - thats usually what they mean: tough talk. But little practical action.

    Iran is the perfect example. Republicans think its good politics to talk tough about Iran: likening the Islamic Republic to Nazi Germany; "Axis of Evil"; and all the rest. But their talk of action necessarily falls short. Because the political reality is that American voters are smart enough to know that starting another war in the Middle East would be a disaster.

    Tough Talk is stupid. It simply paints you into a political corner you cannot get out of.

    Far better to follow the Obama approach. Diplomatic words, unambiguous about what will - and will not - be tolerated. Obama doesn't have to threaten to bomb Iran. The Mullahs and Republican Guard are quite smart enough he has that option. But they also don't have warlike words hanging over their heads as a convenient excuse for them to justify the enormous economic and political costs of pursuing a nuclear weapon.

    Bullies and fools talk tough. Beware of anybody who makes it a corner of their campaign.

    Donald Trump never got that memo.
     
  23. giantfan1224 macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    Coming from someone who has been to Mexico quite a bit--and lived there for a stint--the Mexicans themselves have the power (but not the will) to rid their country of the corruption that pervades almost every aspect of life down there. It's nearsighted to want to blame Mexico's ills on the U.S. Mexico tolerates and even embraces corruption, sort of like a warm blanket. When the government declared war on the cartels, it wasn't long before the populace was calling for a return to the status quo with the Cartels in power to "keep the peace". They had no stomach for the messiness that it would require to cut out the cancer.
     
  24. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #24
    I hope Trump is around long enough to totally lay waste to the out of touch republican field of candidates and party. Being a liberal, I don't want Trump to go away doing what he has to the GOP in terms of destroying the republican brand.

    I had no doubt that before Trump the democrats would easily take 2016, like they easily did in 2008 and 2012. But with Trump, either one of two big things could happen. Trump could become president or Trump could pave the way for Hilary to win huge. She was going to win huge imho, but Trump only makes the independents pull the "D" lever.

    I am not worried about the other big possibility. There's no way Trump could go all the way. There are too many independents who happen to be either 1) Hispanic, 2) military/veterans, and 3) Christians/Jews/Muslims who believe in a God they feel a need to ask forgiveness from time to time.

    I think other republicans who have a candidate besides Trump may either sit this one out or write in a vote if Trump gets the GOP nomination. I can't think of any state Trump can win except for Alaska, maybe.
     
  25. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

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    #25
    The cartels as we know them would not exist were it not for the massive US market for illicit drugs. Without the cartels, there is far, far less motivation for corruption in government, no kidnappings, no massive turf wars, no massacres. Your entire argument deals with the present, but history explains why things are the way they are, and who is responsible - and the US is a key part of that story, say what you like. We helped birth this monster.

    This is all so early in the election cycle that it will be forgotten when the business end of the campaign gets going. Right now the goal of the serious candidates is to say as little as possible, which is why they sound so bland and the media is forced to hype up Trump to keep ratings going. But it's all nonsense. You're going to have to wait till fall 2016 to experience the next 47% moment.
     

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