Who will the libs side with in this case?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Herdfan, May 20, 2018.

  1. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #1
    So we have a trans woman (has man parts) and a Muslim esthetician. The trans woman wanted a waxing at a Canadian Spa. When told that she could not be accommodated because the only esthetician on duty was a Muslim woman who could not touch men who were not her husband due to religious reasons, the trans woman filed a complaint and has sued the spa.

    https://windsor.ctvnews.ca/human-ri...axing-business-by-transgender-woman-1.3925911

    So we have Liberal Darlings A vs Liberal Darlings B. Which side will the libs come down on.

    What is funny about this is during the whole cake baking thing when posited about what would happen if someone tried to get a Muslim cake baker to bake a cake for a gay wedding, the left kind of pushed the idea under the rug as not relevant. Well, this is a very similar circumstance in that a person is claiming religious reasons for not performing a public service. The main difference is that the religion is Islam, not Christianity. So is the left going to crucify the Muslim woman to the level it has crucified the bakers?

    Or is the left going to side with the Trans woman against a protected religion?

    Going to fun to watch.
     
  2. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #2
    The main difference is that the "service" includes body contact with the costumer here.
     
  3. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3
    So:

    Muslim Woman 1
    Trans Woman 0

    Wanted to do a poll, but forgot and couldn't do it after the fact.
     
  4. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #4
    Uh, false equivalence, baking a cake does not violate anyone’s religion. I think you are expecting more fun than you are going to get if this is just another attempt to belittle liberalism. :) In the case you cited abouve, the trans women would have to wait for someone who does not observe a general religious prohibition of touching someone of the opposite sex (using traditional standards of sexual identification).
     
  5. juanm, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #5
    You really find the strangest things to worry about. You seem to be the one who cares about it, not "the libs".
     
  6. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #6
    This is the result of the predictable collision of two very flawed ideas:

    1.) The idea that whenever a man imagines himself to be a woman, the rest of the world is obligated to ignore reality and play along and
    2.) The idea that businesses have to serve everyone, regardless of the personal convictions of the people who own/work in the business.

    It’ll be interesting to see how people side here, but I’m going to side with the actual woman who is a part of an actual protected class.
     
  7. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #7
    Whew, you dodged the accusations of being biased. :p
     
  8. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #8
    I thought this was a no-no. She identifies as a woman so to the world, she is a woman. Right?
     
  9. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #9
    Not trying to insult you by this question, but do you have a basic understanding of the physiology and brain chemistry involved in these cases and why the categories of LGBT exist?
     
  10. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #10
    Is that relevant? She claims to be a woman. End of story. Or at least that was what the rule was last week.
     
  11. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #11
    Wrong, it’s complicated, it’s not a blanket standard in combination with religious freedom. Is this a transvestite or a person who has physically had a sex change? Even with a sex change, this is nothing like your comparison of a baker refusing to bake a cake.
     
  12. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #12
    Go ahead and assume I don’t and explain it to me. Then explain to me how that matters in an instance of someone with a penis being expected to be treated as someone with a vagina.
     
  13. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #13
    It is relevant to the statement, any man who thinks he is woman. This does not take away from the general religious based prohibition, but I was addressing what I perceived as possibly an uninformed opinion on the subject.
     
  14. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

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    #14
    Trudeau will soon chime in... offering both parties a $million dollars each while lecturing the rest of the country to be more tolerant.
     
  15. cmaier macrumors G4

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    #15
    ```
    Businesses are artificial entities. If you incorporate you get benefits from society. You are not personally liable for debts, etc. In exchange for receiving these benefits from society, you owe certain obligations to society. That’s only fair. One of those obligations is to treat everyone equally.

    If you don’t like it, feel free to operate your business without claiming the benefits of a corporation, partnership, or other artificial business entity.
    --- Post Merged, May 20, 2018 ---
    “I want the right to be taxed at a lower rate, deduct my expenses, and be free from personal liability for torts and other legal infractions. And I want these benefits without having to give anything in return.

    And it’s those damned *******s that always want handouts from the government.”

    - Conservatives
     
  16. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #16
    Hence the question has the person undergone a sex change...
    If you don’t know, and/or say I am assuming, instead of me wasting time with an explanation to an unwilling recipient, I’ll suggest you read up on it. :) As is, the issues goes far beyound people fancying themselves as belonging to the opposite sex. There is a psychological and psychology aspect that exceeds fantasies.
     
  17. cmaier macrumors G4

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    #17
    The idea that you need to know what body parts a person has in order to determine how to treat a person is bizarre. People who think like that are mentally ill.
     
  18. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #18
    Correct.

    Also correct. Businesses employee people and spur on economic growth in a legal and ethical fashion. That’s how they meet their obligation to society.

    No it’s not. Businesses discriminate all the time. Try being a man and telling your auto insurance company that you’re a woman so you can get a lower premium. Or an elderly person who imagines themselves to be a 20 year old for a cheaper life policy.
     
  19. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #19
    For my conservative (for lack of a better label) friends, things are not as simple as you might think. :)
    Well there is a tradional history based on preconceived simplistic notions, that sexual parts identify you, but let’s just forget about the cases of people who are born with ambiguous genitalia (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/ambiguous-genitalia). My understanding is when doctors intervene it’s easier to snip parts off, than more extensive surgery. The baby has no say.

    And I don’t want to hear anything about God being involved in conditions at birth as in I chose to give you a birth defect. The Earth Simulator is a crap shoot in all aspects. :)

    Then there are new terms in the dictionary: Agender, bigender, gender-fluid.

    Not all people identify as male or female. Take a look inside the world outside the gender binary.
    http://www.upworthy.com/not-all-peo...ok-inside-the-world-outside-the-gender-binary
     
  20. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #20
    It says pretty clearly in the article that the shop denied service because of the complainant’s male genitalia. So your points about psychology don’t seem particularly relevant to me.

    If you have a penis, don’t be expecting people to ignore the fact that you have a penis. Why is this so difficult?
     
  21. raqball macrumors 68000

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    #21
    Agree.. This thread should be a blast to read and follow...
     
  22. Huntn, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018

    Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #22
    I questioned your comment critical of the transvestite and the subject as I perceived it. If I misread your attitude my apologies. Psychology is very much a part of this discussion if it is to be an informed discussion. I agree with the shop’s decision and would rule in favor of the shop.

    It could be that this person will make the leap and get an operation. What then regarding prohibitions of the Muslim religion? That might depend on individual. In that case I might find in favor of the transgender person, but this is much different than baking a cake and I’d still consider the feelings of the Muslim Esthetician. It would be better to have someone who does not mind based on religion of not having to,give you intimate service.

    I can mention another example in line with the cake case, the Muslim taxi driver who refused to transport acholol. That’s a case where the consumption of alchohol is different than transporting it. For that, the driver should find another job, or the company should always have someone available who can transport alcohol without objection.
     
  23. alex2792 macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    This is one of those catch 22 scenarios with 2 members of victim groups facing off and they can only pick one. Siding with the Muslim means they’re transphobic while siding with the tranny makes them islamaphobic. Decisions, decisions....
     
  24. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #24
    They can’t discriminate indiscriminately. There are outstanding Federal prohibitions regarding discrimination regarding sex, ethnicity, religion, and to a lesser degree LGBT.
     
  25. cmaier macrumors G4

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    #25
    You don’t get to decide what the quid pro quo is. The duly elected government does. And if they decided that part of the quid is you don’t get to discriminate, than that’s that.
     

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