Why are you for illegal immigration?

unlinked

macrumors 6502a
Jul 12, 2010
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It is technically, legally, and factually more accurate to describe such a person as an undocumented immigrant. Calling them an "illegal alien" is not only inaccurate, it is pejorative.
Everything is a pejorative when used as one. If in the fullness of time everyone uses the words undocumented it will be considered a pejorative. Calling them undocumented is an attempt to portray documentation as the problem not the actions of the immigrant.
 

vrDrew

macrumors 65816
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Everything is a pejorative when used as one.
Calling someone who can't start their day without a couple of cups of coffee a "drug addict" is, technically at least, accurate. But it's pejorative, and more to the point confusing and not particularly helpful when discussing the larger issue of the abuse of prescription and other psychoactive drugs.

There is a huge variety of circumstances behind the large numbers of non-citizen residents living in the United States without the appropriate visa. To categorize all of them as "illegal aliens" oversimplifies the issue to the point of meaninglessness.

Is a tourist who overstays his visa by a week or two an "illegal alien"? No: because they haven't committed a crime. Neither is the person who was brought to this country as an infant. And I think reasonable people could agree that they shouldn't be treated in the same manner as individuals who do, in fact, commit crimes in order to enter and remain in this country.
 

VulchR

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Jun 8, 2009
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Unless you are one of those people who thinks America needs more people in order to compete with China because it has a billion people I don't really get that idea.
In the near future somebody will be needed to change adult diapers in US nursing homes full of baby-boomers. And others will be needed help pay for the boomers once they've retired.
 

unlinked

macrumors 6502a
Jul 12, 2010
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And I think reasonable people could agree that they shouldn't be treated in the same manner as individuals who do, in fact, commit crimes in order to enter and remain in this country.
I don't think it makes much sense to take the time to try and convict people who commit crimes as part and parcel of their unauthorised stay in a country and then imprison them. They should just be deported if they have no right to stay in the country. The criminal justice system is appropriate for other crimes where they can serve their time and then be deported.

I don't care what they are called as long it gets across that they have no right to be in the country and they should be deported. Encouraging people to build lives they literally have no right to have and then using that as something to cry over if they get deported is terrible. Ignoring the law isn't a second best thing to do because you can't change it. It is playing with people lives.
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In the near future somebody will be needed to change adult diapers in US nursing homes full of baby-boomers. And others will be needed help pay for the boomers once they've retired.
It probably isn't the best to be making incredibly long term decisions based on very temporary transitory requirements. Or so people can have a cheap cleaner/gardener/ass wiper.
 
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oneMadRssn

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Sep 8, 2011
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The estimates show that the average illegal immigrant contributes 10K in taxes but utilizes $24k annually in welfare and services. Do the math. 62% of households headed by an illegal immigrant use at least one major welfare program. Listen, I've all ready had my health insurance premiums skyrocket for the greater good, I'm sure I could swing an extra $3 for guacamole.
If we begin deporting people by their ratio of $ contributed as taxes over $ taken as welfare, we would kick out most of the GOP. So, in that perverse sense, I'm for it!

But not really. By that logic, let's deport all of Alabama, New Mexico, and Alabama; the "takiest" states. Kick out all of Arkansas too for good measure.
 

nia820

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Jun 27, 2011
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I think people should come into the country legally. But I feel like illegal immigration has become a necessary evil. They do the jobs we Americans don't want to do.
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I just have a curious question. Why is it the United States responsibility to fix another countries economy?
With great power comes great responsibility. We are the most powerful nation on earth and it would be selfish not to help other countries.
 

rhett7660

macrumors G5
Jan 9, 2008
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I think people should come into the country legally. But I feel like illegal immigration has become a necessary evil. They do the jobs we Americans don't want to do.
[doublepost=1486651824][/doublepost]

With great power comes great responsibility. We are the most powerful nation on earth and it would be selfish not to help other countries.
I don't know if I would call the US the most powerful nation on earth anymore. With the rise of China, the amount of money the US owes to China, let alone the shear number of people they have. In my opinion the US is not the most powerful anymore. We are up there, just not number one. Again there are other factors to this equation, this is an extremely wide and broad view of it.
 

vrDrew

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I don't know if I would call the US the most powerful nation on earth anymore. With the rise of China, the amount of money the US owes to China, let alone the shear number of people they have.
Militarily the US is still, by a considerable margin, the most powerful country on earth. This is a factor not just of our physical assets of troops and equipment, by of our multitude of bases and allies. The US has bases and alliances on every continent and in every ocean. There is almost no corner of the globe to which the US could not project overwhelming force. That certainly is no true of China.

The US culturally and politically is still - by a considerable margin - the most powerful nation on earth. Hundreds of millions of people around the world tune in to watch Game of Thrones and Modern Family. I doubt the same could be said of any Chinese TV show. They listen to Beyonce and Lady Gaga in a way that no Chinese pop star can match. The US is still the most desired nation that people aspire to emulate. Hundreds of millions f people in Africa and Asia would like to have a law-abiding, multi-party democracy, with free and open elections, free of graft and corruption, the way we do in the United States. I don't think too many of those people would aspire to a One-Party state, with heavy censorship of thought and expression, like they do in China.

And the US is still the financial powerhouse of the world. Investors and businesses still trade stocks and bonds in New York over Shanghai. Investors, small and large, still prefer the openness and liquidity of US markets over the secrecy and double-dealing of Chinese ones. And wealthy Chinese investors want to buy houses in Manhattan and Beverly Hills, in a way that very few rich Americans would want to buy apartments in Shanghai and Beijing.

The iPhone might be assembled in China. But it designed and engineered in California. And that is where the vast majority of the money, and the value is created.

The US is still, by a large margin, the most powerful nation on earth. Donald Trump and his supporters ought to think very carefully about the factors that make that so. Walling us off from the very allies, partners, suppliers and markets that make that so, seems like a very poor strategy indeed.
 

HEK

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Sep 24, 2013
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The combined tribes of the American indian nations calls for the complete removal and deportation of all illegal aliens and their descendent children from the Americas. Primarily white anglo-saxon refugees brought over by the boat load full in the last several hundred years.

None of these refugees were properly vetted nor did any have a visa to enter the sovereign indian nations. It is further noted that these terrorist immigrants, committed mass murders, and stole indian lands.
 

BarracksSi

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I'll wander in with a remark about one aspect --

Another thing illegal immigrants lack here is legal protections. This is most manifest when it comes to housing and workplace conditions -- basic stuff.

One example from my home state involved workers at meatpacking plants. Not the daytime workers, but the ones who came in overnight to clean the machines. These are machines designed to cut up cows and pigs, mind you, so you can imagine what they'd do to a human. The workers would get hustled by their shift managers, who would skip over safety protocols just to speed things up, and they-- mostly undocumented and/or illegal -- would get injured or killed.

They had no legal recourse to help themselves. No ability to unionize, no way to seek legal counsel or representation, and definitely no ability to launch lawsuits. They were getting flat-out abused by the companies and had no way to speak up.

I do mind that they were here as undocumented, I do mind that some don't pay income taxes, but I want them to feel like they will be welcomed and have a real chance at building a better life for themselves.
 
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rjohnstone

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The combined tribes of the American indian nations calls for the complete removal and deportation of all illegal aliens and their descendent children from the Americas. Primarily white anglo-saxon refugees brought over by the boat load full in the last several hundred years.

None of these refugees were properly vetted nor did any have a visa to enter the sovereign indian nations. It is further noted that these terrorist immigrants, committed mass murders, and stole indian lands.
:rolleyes:

First, there were no immigration laws or visas in the 1400's.
Second, they were defeated. To the victor go the spoils.
Just like elections having consequences, so do wars.

If we were to follow that model, most of Europe and the middle East would have to be cleared of all non indigenous people.
 

mac_in_tosh

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Nov 6, 2016
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illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do.
I'm wondering if this is less and less true as time goes by and more and more people find themselves left out of our economy. Also, I assume illegal immigrants are paid less than Americans for similar work, because employers have the threat of deportation as a bargaining chip.
 
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HEK

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I'll wander in with a remark about one aspect --

Another thing illegal immigrants lack here is legal protections. This is most manifest when it comes to housing and workplace conditions -- basic stuff.

One example from my home state involved workers at meatpacking plants. Not the daytime workers, but the ones who came in overnight to clean the machines. These are machines designed to cut up cows and pigs, mind you, so you can imagine what they'd do to a human. The workers would get hustled by their shift managers, who would skip over safety protocols just to speed things up, and they-- mostly undocumented and/or illegal -- would get injured or killed.

They had no legal recourse to help themselves. No ability to unionize, no way to seek legal counsel or representation, and definitely no ability to launch lawsuits. They were getting flat-out abused by the companies and had no way to speak up.

I do mind that they were here as undocumented, I do mind that some don't pay income taxes, but I want them to feel like they will be welcomed and have a real chance at building a better life for themselves.
To the best of American traditions when legal recourse is not available or is denied, then illegal action becomes necessary. Just as the founding fathers of this country took violant action into their own hands, breaking the law and waging violent conflict. I would council that if some managers, executives and owners of these plants happened to find their way into these machines, things would have a better chance of changing.

Patriots start out as criminal lawbreakers, until they win. Sometimes violent revolution is the last recourse of a free people that find their backs against the wall. Read the declaration of independence. When a government, local, state and federal do not step in to prevent human abuse. Those abused need to take action into their own hands.
 

VulchR

macrumors 68020
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...
It probably isn't the best to be making incredibly long term decisions based on very temporary transitory requirements. Or so people can have a cheap cleaner/gardener/ass wiper.
Not sure what you mean - the demographics are that for many years in the future the ratio of old people to young people will be too high, and this will cause a burden on the young people (who, fed up with the antics of the elders, might just opt for social and nursing care austerity until they pay off their college loans). this is a problem in the West and also Japan. Indeed, it is often described as a 'demographic time bomb'. If we continue to ignore our future needs, it is likely we will be unable to meet our future needs. Even if robots begin to take over manual jobs, there will still need to be an economy in which people are earning enough wages to pay for pensions, social care, nursing care, and medical care.
 

HEK

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:rolleyes:

First, there were no immigration laws or visas in the 1400's.
Second, they were defeated. To the victor go the spoils.
Just like elections having consequences, so do wars.

If we were to follow that model, most of Europe and the middle East would have to be cleared of all non indigenous people.
No laws or visas that the illegal white refugees recognized. But did they as the people living here already have laws they followed. Of course.
I bet you dollars to donuts that the indians for sure had understanding with other tribes as to where they could settle. You make the mistake of thinking only law is that written down on a piece of paper.

And if might makes right, if ISiS prevails by shear numbers and overthrows countries, then they must be right by your ethics. So ISIS becomes legitimate if they are the Victors.
 
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MaulRx

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Why? We can produce babies here and all that stuff. Sure, adding some quality people is a good thing but ONLY if they come here to abide by our rules and way of life, not to try and shove their "culture" down our throats.

As for illegal immigration? It sucks and needs to be stopped. Punish companies that hire them and deport those that come here illegally. Easy - but it takes set of BALLS to do it and politicans have none of those.
Why? Simple put we as a nation, for lack of better terms, are too lazy and too stupid, to advance the areas of industry that will be necessary for our survival. Mainly the science fields.
 

CaptMurdock

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Why? We can produce babies here and all that stuff. Sure, adding some quality people is a good thing but ONLY if they come here to abide by our rules and way of life, not to try and shove their "culture" down our throats.
Yeah...good thing those Irish, Japanese, Chinese and Italians came over here and didn't shove their "cultures" down our throats.

Which reminds me: what shall I have for lunch: pizza, fried rice, sushi or corned beef?
 

BarracksSi

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To the best of American traditions when legal recourse is not available or is denied, then illegal action becomes necessary. Just as the founding fathers of this country took violant action into their own hands, breaking the law and waging violent conflict. I would council that if some managers, executives and owners of these plants happened to find their way into these machines, things would have a better chance of changing.

Patriots start out as criminal lawbreakers, until they win. Sometimes violent revolution is the last recourse of a free people that find their backs against the wall. Read the declaration of independence. When a government, local, state and federal do not step in to prevent human abuse. Those abused need to take action into their own hands.
Right --

What happened in this particular situation was a months-long investigation by a local newspaper (yes, ~the media~..) published with clear, even-handed facts and multiple interviews. Many of the plant owners were not aware of the abuses that had been occurring, but they didn't yell at the newspaper after the story was published, either. Last I heard, reforms were being put into place, and the overnight workers doing cleanup (imagine going into these big machines and pulling out hunks of cow parts) were getting better safety protections.
 

HEK

macrumors 68040
Sep 24, 2013
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Right --

What happened in this particular situation was a months-long investigation by a local newspaper (yes, ~the media~..) published with clear, even-handed facts and multiple interviews. Many of the plant owners were not aware of the abuses that had been occurring, but they didn't yell at the newspaper after the story was published, either. Last I heard, reforms were being put into place, and the overnight workers doing cleanup (imagine going into these big machines and pulling out hunks of cow parts) were getting better safety protections.
I'm glad to hear the reporting caused possitive action. Every so often things work like they ought to.

Good thing it wasn't fake news. Now how do we get this kind of response at the federal level?
 

rjohnstone

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No laws or visas that the illegal white refugees recognized. But did they as the people living here already have laws they followed. Of course.
I bet you dollars to donuts that the indians for sure had understanding with other tribes as to where they could settle. You make the mistake of thinking only law is that written down on a piece of paper.

And if might makes right, if ISiS prevails by shear numbers and overthrows countries, then they must be right by your ethics. So ISIS becomes legitimate if they are the Victors.
Tribes stole land from each other... they were not this united group you portray.
They fought and took land from each other long before the early settlers came over.

Comparing the actions of ISIS to the actions of the European settlers when they came to the Americas is not that far of a stretch. They were pretty damn brutal to the natives once they decided to take the land.

Ethics has nothing to do with the legitimacy of a government.
Annexing land by force is never "ethical".

In a nut shell, if the Indian tribes want back what was once theirs, they have to take it back.
And we all know they simply lack the resources to do so.
 

pdqgp

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Mar 23, 2010
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View attachment 687806
I have a second question: why do so many here oppose legal immigration? FWIW my ex came to the US on a scientist training visa, I met her, we married, and had a kid. Then her visa ran out, and that's why I am now in the UK. The fact we were married, had a kid who was a US citizen, and that my ex was an promising scientist made no difference - she had to leave the US, and thus so did I. (I'm no slouch either - the US government invested more than $500,000 to train me through various competitive scholarships and fellowships, an investment lost to the UK) So if anybody thinks getting visa's and permanent residencies in the US is easy, I suggest you educate yourself. Moreover, meddling with perfectly legal immigration, like Trump attempted, disrupts families that are vulnerable enough as it is.
I support immigration but not just simply for the sake of it. Many people in the US don't want to simply take in tens of thousands of people who can't support themselves. Some yes, but lots, no. We aren't the crazy cat lady taking in strays. We are at a point where it's critical that the country needs to be fiscally and socially responsible to our citizens first. Clearly you and your ex don't fit in that bucket.

Finally, what has hurt American workers is the behaviour of the top 1% who own and manage companies, not illegal immigrants. If we want illegal immigrants to stop taking jobs, to the extent they actually do, then we should prosecute and jail the people who hire illegal immigrants and get rich exploiting them. The same applies to slime-ball landlords renting out overcrowded apartments and houses to illegal immigrants.
Agree, but I think both need punished. Employers need a huge crack to hurt them and deter them from being hired but we can't just overlook people who enter and work here illegally.
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It is technically, legally, and factually more accurate to describe such a person as an undocumented immigrant. Calling them an "illegal alien" is not only inaccurate, it is pejorative.
The legal term as applied and used by the SCOTUS is Illegal Alien. It's not inaccurate or and if anyone feels it's pejorative then good, it's mean to be. We don't need to be "sensitive" to law breakers feelings. They put themselves in the position of being called an illegal alien so they need to own what comes from it, including being branded the legal term. If they want to be termed an immigrant then apply for and receive US citizenship legally. Do that then they are no longer an alien.

immigrant-alien.png
 
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kobalap

macrumors 6502
Nov 30, 2009
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Serious question.

Between reports on news outlets and conversations I have had, I have to wonder why some people are so accepting of illegal immigration. So why?

I remember being in a thread on another board about "keep right except to pass" laws and there were a good number of people who were completely against anyone speeding on the Interstate, even 5 mph over. Yet others are fine allowing who knows who to just stroll into the country.

This is not about the wall and if it will or won't be effective. But why some people are willing to allow anyone to come here without following the rules.
Well, if I could ask a parallel question, why are you (or maybe I should say, why are conservatives) for certifiably crazy people and violent felons having the right to own guns?
 

BeeGood

macrumors 68000
Sep 15, 2013
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I'm not sure I've ever met someone who was in favor of illegal immigration. I've met plenty of people who are indifferent towards it though. I think the disagreement stems from differing opinions on how much effort and how many resources need to be expended to secure the southern border.

IMHO, the more important question is what needs to happen to the millions of undocumented individuals who are living here.
 

pdqgp

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Mar 23, 2010
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IMHO, the more important question is what needs to happen to the millions of undocumented individuals who are living here.
Agree that it's a problem that will eventually need addressed. IMO, felons should be deported and not allowed back. If their family wants to go with them, that's their choice. I would be open to allowing the good ones to become permanent residents but I would not give them full citizenship with the right to vote. To do that they need to go through the full process just like anyone.