Why can't we admit there's no Russiagate?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by FrenchRoasted, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. FrenchRoasted macrumors regular

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    #1
    "Talk by Ray McGovern, 27-Year Veteran of the CIA and co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, on "Russia-gate: Can You Handle the Truth?" recorded August 4, 2018 at the Common Good Cafe, University Temple United Methodist Church, Seattle."


    Hate Trump all you want (I didn't vote for him), but go after him for the right reasons, like spending further into debt, continuing the wars (N Korea being the exception), orange hair, etc.

    This Russia nonsense is not just a waste of time, but a dangerous witch hunt.
     
  2. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #2
    These are confirmed facts:

    1. 14 members of the Trump campaign, businesses or family reached out to Russian officials for assistance during the campaign.

    2. Trump was involved in trying to do a real estate deal in Russia throughout the campaign.

    3. Trump and the campaign lied repeatedly about those two facts.

    4. The Russian government organized and implemented numerous criminal operations to help the Trump campaign.

    5. Trump repeatedly denied those Russian operations, even after US intelligence agencies concluded that they took place. He even sided with Putin over his own intelligence agencies.

    6. As the FBI investigated these matters, Trump fired the head of the FBI and admitted that he did so to relieve some of the pressure from these investigations.


    I would conclude that those facts alone demonstrate a scandal of historic proportions and grounds for impeachment, and we have no idea what else Mueller will end up uncovering.
     
  3. FrenchRoasted thread starter macrumors regular

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    #3
    Given the timestamps, am I to conclude you didn't listen to the whole video?
     
  4. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #4
    I didn’t watch it. I don’t know what he says, but he cannot contradict what I wrote.
     
  5. ericgtr12 macrumors 65816

    ericgtr12

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    #5
    How anyone rational can look at all this and still call it a witch hunt is beyond me. These are all facts that resulted from fully vetted investigations. It's almost like trying to reason with climate change deniers.
     
  6. FrenchRoasted thread starter macrumors regular

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    #6
    1. Hillary's camp reached out to nefarious folks looking for dirt as well. All campaigns to this. Not great, but not illegal.
    2. Guess what, Trump is a real estate developer. He tries to do deals everywhere.
    3. FBI excels at entrapment lies, means nothing. You can be prosecuted for lying (miss remembering) something that isn't remotely illegal. That's just BS. Oh, and they can lie to you all day.
    4. Pure BS. Facebook ads? really?
    5. See #3
    6. In case you didn't know, the President can fire the head of the FBI anytime they want to. He should have done so from day one, as Comey is a sleazy operative.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 19, 2018 ---
    Was wondering when the conflation would come in. Can't prove your case, link it to climate deniers. Next you'll be lumping this in with flat earthers.
     
  7. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #7
    So you post something that pre-dates the latest round of convictions and expect us to believe it? With all due respect, that does not make sense. The Mueller investigation is not completed yet. We should let it run its course. Until then, I, for one, am glad that the investigations have removed now-convicted felons from the President's inner circle. Clearing the swamps indeed.
     
  8. ericgtr12 macrumors 65816

    ericgtr12

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    #8
    Well, there's a pretty well known direct link.
     
  9. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #9

    1. Hillary isn’t president. She’s irrelevant.
    2. Then why did he lie about it for two years?
    3. Lying about your campaign’s involvement with a foreign adversary during a campaign (in which they committed numerous felonies on your behalf) isn’t BS. And no one was “entrapping” Trump to lie about these things during press conferences.
    4. How about the theft of Democratic campaign emails and release of that stolen information to the public? Also very serious felonies committed by Russian operatives. Again, not BS.
    5. Again, who was forcing Trump to stand there in Helsinki and side with Putin over his own intelligence agencies?
    6. He admitted to Lester Holt and to the Russian ambassador that he fired Comey becasue of the Russian investigation. That’s called obstruction of justice and grounds for impeachment (ask Nixon about whether he had the legal right to fire Archibald Cox).
     
  10. FrenchRoasted thread starter macrumors regular

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    #10
    Now we're getting to the heart of the matter. I trust the word of a CIA officer over you on this. It was an internal leak within the Democrat party which was sent Wikileaks. No one is discussing the contents of the emails by design. Hillary stole the nomination from Sanders pure and simple. And yes, Hillary lost the election, but she is still VERY much relevant to this discussion.
    Because the intelligence agencies are against him. The Deep State is real, no one is talking about that.

    I'm still baffled how in one election, the Left did a 180 and now embrace the military industrial complex and foment fear/hatred of Russia.
     
  11. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #11
    Yikes! Does the letter Q mean something to you, too?
     
  12. Loki.Mephisto macrumors 6502a

    Loki.Mephisto

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    #12
    Calling Comey sleazy disqualifies you utterly.

    Even Comey's pinky toe is more honorable and morally sound than you know who
     
  13. FrenchRoasted thread starter macrumors regular

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    #13
    Yikes, I have no idea what this means. It sounds smart though.
     
  14. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #14
    It’s a QAnon reference (a group that believes similarly ridiculous conspiracy theories). The bottom line is that we have no basis for rejecting the conclusions of the CIA, DOJ and FBI that it was Russian government operatives who stole the Democratic emails and had them released by Wikileaks. And the content of those emails is irrelevant. Was Nixon’s culpability for Watergate somehow dependent on what the burglars might have found in the DNC files if they hadn’t been caught?
     
  15. FrenchRoasted thread starter macrumors regular

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    #15
    QAnon is a non sequitur then.
    The DNC didn't provide the FBI/CIA/... with the computers to evaluate the hacking claim. No direct evidence at all.
    The contents of the emails don't matter? You claim anything about Hillary isn't relevant, yet Nixon from 45 years ago is?
    The contents of the emails matter most of all.
     
  16. BaldiMac macrumors 604

    BaldiMac

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    #16
    One conspiracy theory after another. :rolleyes:
     
  17. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #17
    The point about Nixon is that the contents of the DNC files in the Watergate were irrelevant is assessing the culpability of Nixon related to the attempted burglary of those files. Similarly, if Trump had anything to do with covering up the Russian theft of Democratic emails, the contents of those emails are of no relevance to Trump’s culpability.
     
  18. Altis macrumors 68030

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    #18
    Weren't those the same people who sent the U.S. to the middle east over muh 'WMDs'?

    Didn't Vault 7 show that the CIA leaves Russian 'fingerprints' (digitally) to make it look like they were the ones to access information?

    The whole thing is just such a mess of corruption.
     
  19. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #19
    The US intelligence agencies never believed in WMDs.
     
  20. Altis macrumors 68030

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    #20
    Even CNN seems to think they did...

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/04/opin...er-cia-fiasco-like-iraq-wmd-bergen/index.html

    But most interesting is the whole 'fingerprints' aspect (from the article):

    Yet we know from Vault 7 that the CIA knows perfectly well how to leave the 'fingerprints' of other groups which will be interpreted as those groups.
     
  21. RichardMZhlubb, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018

    RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #21
    It’s worth remembering that Trump’s own hand-picked DNI, FBI director and Deputy AG have all confirmed the conclusions that it was a Russian operation.
     
  22. ericgtr12 macrumors 65816

    ericgtr12

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    #22
    The best people.
     
  23. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #23
    Or in this case, the best we could hope for under the circumstances. Coates, Wray and Rosenstein are not great, but they appear to at least have more integrity than the president or a lot of his other political appointees.
     
  24. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #24
    All leftover cold warriors. These people all have histories you know. There’s a reason America’s foreign policy operates more or less the same (with varying degrees of ruthlessness) regardless of president or party in power.

    Obama has a term for this unelected power, he referred to it as “the blob”.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 19, 2018 ---
    Yet their directors, many whom have been promoted since, had no problem stovepiping information to make sure only the official narrative made its way up the chain and out to the American people.

    For ****s sake, the head of the CIA is a torturer.

    Alphabet soup agencies aren’t your friend. Never have been, never will be.
     
  25. jerwin macrumors 68020

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    #25
    Sure does.

     

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79 December 19, 2018