Why don't you move out of your overcrowded glass house?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Chew Toy McCoy, Jul 25, 2019.

  1. Chew Toy McCoy macrumors regular

    Chew Toy McCoy

    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    #1
    One of the many nice things about being politically independent is you don't live in a glass house with hundreds of millions of other people the opposing side thinks you need to take personal responsibility for. I see some rational independent thinkers on here who still insist on hitching their wagon to the corpse of the Democratic or Republican party and I'm not sure why.

    I can see Trump opening diplomatic relationships with North Korea as a great thing in avoiding war. I can also see his blanket dislike of Muslims and Hispanics as keeping him from doing the same with Iran, Venezuela, and Cuba. I still respect his resistance to the war hawks he's surrounded himself with.

    I can accept violence as part of "all options are on the table" when the government fails it's people. But I can also say antifa is an anarchist organization adopting leftist propaganda claiming to fight fascists while using fascists tactics. They're a bunch of political larpers who need to get laid, to use clinical terms.

    That's how it works. You just call things as you see them on an individual basis. No party line to tow or defend. No renegades you have to claim as a dependent.
     
  2. Huntn macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #2
    What group do you operate in cooperation with that makes a blip on any opinion poll? Not intended to be a hostile question, but if you or a group of like minded people are going to be players in big decisions, you need an organizational means to make, something, anything happen.
     
  3. Chew Toy McCoy thread starter macrumors regular

    Chew Toy McCoy

    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    #3
    That is a very valid point which is why we need more people breaking from the duopoly system we have now. On some level I see it on par with the equal rights movement. I'd like to see a situation where there is an extremely low voter turnout for a federal election and independents band together and file a federal lawsuit with the supreme court for giving us 2 **** candidates and colluding to suppress both no establishment candidates within their party and a third (or more) party option.
     
  4. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #4
    Granted I am looking at things from a biased position, but you aren't saying anything a moderate on the right already says, with more criticisms of the left than right. You haven't so much left any glass houses, just shaded/tinted your windows, and called yourself independent for hanging drapes.
     
  5. Chew Toy McCoy thread starter macrumors regular

    Chew Toy McCoy

    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    #5

    I can be metaphorical too, but I'm not sure what you are saying. What exactly defines an independent to you? I think you are coming off more as jaded than biased.
     
  6. velocityg4, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019

    velocityg4 macrumors 601

    velocityg4

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2004
    Location:
    Georgia
    #6
    I forget the term. Some people have a hook belief. While they may disagree with a lot of a parties policies. There is one or two issues which are all important to them. So, they latch onto the party which represents those issues.

    While they may disagree with much else being done. Everything else is less important than that hook issue. So they'll keep voting just to push or protect their hook issue.

    This is how prohibition got through. Most people didn't care much about temperance. For enough people this was the most important issue. That any politician who stood up against temperance would get defeated in an election. Whether they were Democrat or Republican. Do to the temperance swing vote. They didn't care much else what they represented. As long as they were for temperance.

    That's at least what I think latches an independent thinker to one party.
     
  7. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #7
    My belief, jaded as it may seem, would be by your examples, make one more critical of both sides. If you point out one, you point out the flaws of the other. Without such balance it just seems like you are indeed not so much independent, but someone who leans one side more than the other, but doesn't want to be referred to as belonging to either side.

    What's the point of that?

    Or as asked, how does that move the needle in any positive direction?
     
  8. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Location:
    OBJECTIVE reality
    #8
    Who says belonging to a party means you have to defend the party line? I'm a Democrat. Always have been, since days before the party was pulled to the right by the Reagan era blue dog types. I agree with a lot of what my party stands for, disagree with other things.

    I know one or two guys who have this disdain for both the Republicans and the Democrats. There's this attitude that comes across, as if they're above the fray. To me, though, it's like being that guy who says, "Let's you and he fight. I'll hold your coats." You don't want to be that guy.
     
  9. LizKat macrumors 603

    LizKat

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    #9
    I've already said I'd be an indie if not for the fact NYS has closed primaries. I'd rather try to influence the Dem party's nominee selections than those of any other registered party in the state at the present time (although I occasionally vote Green or Working Party for some slots in general elections). I was elated at the federal elections in 2008, and from 2010-2016 cognizant of the difficulties for Obama in some headwinds from the Republicans, and regretful that concessions at center-right have became sucn an ongoing thing for the Dems.

    In 2016 I was disappointed at how the Dems ran things inside the party, so I'm still pretty much on track to vote in the 2016 Dem primaries and then register independent after that. It's time for younger folk to try to get the Dems to move more towards more of the people, and leave the banks and insurance companies to the hand that a bigger middle ground party will deal them out one of these days.

    Me, I'll see what the indie reform parties have to say as time goes on and probably still end up voting Dem in general elections for the rest of my life -- unless a third party gets some traction that's less a down-middle than progressive reform party.

    I meant it when I've said that I'm not voting for a Republican candidate of the stripe of this GOP again in my lifetime. I follow the evolution of the Stand Up Republic and neverTrumper conservatives out of interest, although more just to see how they diverge from this current GOP than out of conviction I could end up supporting their eventual policy assertions.

    Bottom line for now I still do see a big difference in the two major parties' outlooks and legislative efforts, and there's not enough time in my "late afternoon" for this iteration of the GOP to get off their current dime and recapture my interest. I await with interest the focus of the growing "indie center" if they decide to stop being this-or-that at the polls and decide to become a "new other". I'm probably getting too old to get out there and try to help shape it. My stash of books invested in and yet to be read reminds me to divide my time more selfishly now. :)
     
  10. Chew Toy McCoy thread starter macrumors regular

    Chew Toy McCoy

    Joined:
    May 13, 2016
    #10
    Are you trolling? Seriously.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 25, 2019 ---
    You didn't answer what you think defines an independent, but I don't think that was a deflection. You kind of clarified things for me. Centrists and independents could easily be defined as the same thing. Centrists/lefists should break off from the left and right.

    You've also shown something I've only other seen mentioned in political youtube videos.

    Criticize the right - you must be left
    Criticize the left - you must be right
    Criticize both - you must be right

    I lean left and I find it disturbing the left feels they are above criticism or self reflection.
     
  11. LizKat macrumors 603

    LizKat

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    #11
    It does bother me that the Dems have seemed to dismiss rural voters for so long. In my county it's only been since 2016 that they bothered to field candidates for posts as high as state assemblyman. That's pretty defeatist, I used to think. Then I realized it's mostly because they got caught up in the top tier high donor star system and it was convenient to figure "well we're gonna lose those state legislature seats anyway."

    Post-2016 some of Bernie's and Nina Turner's energy has rubbed off on the Dems and they have started to work harder again with some success in red states at grass roots levels. It's the only thing going to pressure the DNC to move left even a little, really.

    The success of progressives in blue districts is not going to be enough to move the needle inside the DNC, in fact that may be having an opposite effect in the national committee, they are not happy at lefties primarying the incumbent blues. The banks and insurance companies have got some big IOUs out there with Dems over the years and the left aisles in Congress except for maybe the last round of freshman can act pretty beholden to those interests.

    I was interested to see the former North Dakota Senator Heidi Heitkamp turning along with former Indiana Senator Joe Donnelly to get rural voters and the Democratic Party more aware of each other again. Their One Country Project is a worthy effort. No clue how that will turn out and let's face it, both of those former senators were necessarily blue dogs, and defeated by Republican challengers well to their right, but it's high time some fairly high profile conservative-leaning Democrats from rural states are making the effort. It's one thing for presidential candidates to campaign de rigueur at least a little in rural states and it's another for non candidates who are former elected officials to stand up and basically tell the DNC hey you're messing up here, missing educational opportunity, what's wrong with ya, prove you run a big tent or get outta the way.
     
  12. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Location:
    Velvet Green
    #12
    You call yourself divorced from parties, yet you continue to subscribe to the failed premise. Some 35 years ago, I cast my vote in the election: for president, I checked the blank line and wrote “No”. Not, you understand, because the candidates were unthinkably bad, but because the very office itself is a misguided notion.

    Choose the one guy who should represent the nation and its people (or at least its important people). One guy, for all of us. Yeah, that idea is not working and has not worked for longer than I have been alive. Even if there were a half dozen equally viable options, any one of whom could become president, it still ends up being one person to stand for all of us, which simply makes no sense. Fix that problem and you have made leaping strides toward improving the political lot of the US.
     
  13. JayMysterio, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019

    JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #13
    I thought I did, as you pointed out, to you it seems centrist.

    I envision an independent as someone who truly has issues with other two major options, and is critical of both equally.

    What you went on with, isn't anything I haven't heard from my right leaning friends.

    Your very specific examples betray a leaning of one side over the other, but wanting to play 'the cool kid', and claim to be an independent.

    I thought I was very clear, in my mind if you are going to stake out the position of being an independent you are critical of both sides. Does it mean one 'hates' both sides? No. Obviously there are things to like on both sides, just the same as if one does lean towards one side over another. But if you are leaning heavily more towards one, perhaps you are on that side of the political fence.

    Your observation of what I said makes my point. You see what I am saying as if you criticize the right you must be left, but criticism of other positions make you right. I was trying to make the point that if you criticize both, you are independent. There's been plenty of those on the left on PRSI, websites, progressives like Young Turks, and more who've expressed their issues with the left numerous times, with Obama, the Clintons, all the candidates running for office, MSNBC, and goodness knows heaps for Pelosi. If you somehow managed to miss this, I don't know how much you are leaning.

    Now I can't be sure if that was an attempt to be clever, or what political videos you are watching, but my observation would be...

    From your opening statement I got the impression more that you liked the idea of being referred to as an independent, while still espousing the rhetoric of one side. It's a wonderful position to take as you can criticize both sides, while avoiding the same criticisms of whatever party you are actually leaning towards. You're not so much independent...

    If you think it's just the left that imagines themselves above self criticism & reflection, I once again have to wonder if you are as independent as you imagine.

    Question though, do "independents" such as yourself have a name for those on the right, like you had for "leftists"?
     
  14. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
  15. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #15
    That's independent.

    Not particularly helpful, but my definition of independent.
     
  16. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #16
    Most members of congress greed along with the last 3 clowns should be in GITMO
     
  17. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #17
    Still NOT particularly helpful.
     
  18. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    #18
    The thing is at this point in time, it should be obvious that the GOP as a party doesn’t believe in democracy or the concept of governance itself beyond being used as a weapon against the masses on behalf of a small entrenched group of right wing billionaires and interest.

    So if that’s a *given* as a starting point, why would I have to call out whatever nonsense spills out of McConnel/Cruz/Graham’s mouth just to voice a valid criticism of Democratic Party ties and actions that also keep obscene wealth and power entrenched? My main annoyance in American politics is that the Democratic Party itself stands as some “good guy” foil to the GOP. Given that The GOP should never be voted for why do I have to expend energy pointlessly calling them out for their ******** in order to point out Schumer’s shilling for Facebook through the years or the Democratic Party’s ties and support for the tech giants running privatized surveillance platforms?

    I’m obviously way more left oriented than most self assigned democrats here, yet under your odd metric I’m a right winger because I take issue with the democrats most of the time ( purely because I’ve completely dismissed the GOP as anything I’d ever consider).

    I want our government itself to be better and more representative of its citizens, both parties have been major drivers of how we got to today regardless of who’s in the driver’s seat. Partisan allegiance to me seems to be a way to overlook that reality because it’s more important to root for your team than it is to actually push the boundaries beyond what both corporate corrupted institutions allow to even be discussed.
     
  19. OdT22 macrumors regular

    OdT22

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    #19
    In spades.

    The entire notion that either party represents anyone besides themselves, is juvenile. Party lines are contradictions of themselves, at best. Entertainment, for would-be activists, and the unemployed.

    I met an old guy last year who told me that he voted for Kennedy when he was old enough to vote. “And they shot him! So, I quit voting.” Kinda puts things in a different light to hear him say that. (Self made, self employed type of man. Hell of a life story)

    Intriguing topic OP. As a ‘political atheist’ I like the questions and perspective.
     
  20. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #20
    No.

    I believe as I was trying to point out, you prove that the left is and can be self critical & capable of self reflection. Despite the claims of the OP that it seems the left feels it's above such things.

    Which is necessary for both parties, as well as those imagining they are independent.
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #21
    The op meant mostly the clowns in charge. Goes fir BOTH sides. Sickening to see many believe e their clown can do no wrong
     
  22. JayMysterio, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019

    JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #22
    I took the whole thing to be about those who vote for such "clowns", and those calling themselves independent. Even if I disagreed whether they are really independent.

    I thought "the clowns" themselves weren't really relevant. It's about those of us put those "clowns" in office, from either side of the aisle.

    Like how I see some people wanting to call themselves "independent" so they can complain about both sides of the U.S. political coin, but not have to face the criticism that goes along with being on either side. Just saying every politician is 'bad' or "clowns" isn't very helpful. It's just being nihilistic, because it seems cool. You learn in art classes early on, there's a big difference between criticism & constructive criticism. You always want to provide constructive criticism, otherwise in critiques, you're just wasting people's time to hear yourself talk.

    You often seem to always want to go on about how all politicians are ( usually with a greater focus on anyone named Clinton or Obama ) bad, which after the umpteenth time sounds a lot like static on a radio. We've heard it before, the sound never changes, doesn't mean you need to hear it over & over again. Nor that's it become anymore helpful or insightful after the 1000X time.
     
  23. OdT22 macrumors regular

    OdT22

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    #23
     
  24. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Location:
    Velvet Green
    #24
    No, that is evident for factions of the Right. The US has never had Left-ish leadership (FDR almost), so you cannot guess how “the Left” would behave if they had full or partial control of the government.
     
  25. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Rock Ridge, California
    #25
    But hey, I haven't called myself an independent...
     

Share This Page

58 July 25, 2019