Why is Circumcision of a Baby legal?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by lostngone, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #1
    Don't get me wrong I have googled it and it appears it is still legal because there is no legal standing to make it illegal.


    However....
    Medically this is a completely elective surgery. Why does the hospital perform this surgery and not others at birth, why can't a parent request a newborns ears be pierced(for example)? Yes, I know many people will say it is done for general sanitary/cleanliness reasons as the child grows up. However the same thing could be said for removing fingernails/toenails at birth.

    Then we have the religious variable to this equation. I think it is strange for people to make claims a religion like scientology is a bunch of crazy people but another that requires(or encourages) you to mutilate a newborns genitals as part of a belief somehow gets a pass and is even more mainstream is just plain crazy!

    How about waiting until he is old enough to decide for himself?
     
  2. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

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    #2
    Cos all politicians are pussies (pun included for free).

    A few years ago this actually did pop in german politics and public discussion and it was made legal by emphazizin religious freedom. Whose religious freedem I may ask, surely not of the infant boy.
     
  3. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

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  4. obeygiant macrumors 68040

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  5. lostngone thread starter macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #5
  6. TPadden macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    Yep, infant boys got rights. There should be a government form with 2 questions for all adolescent male's: Would you like to be aborted? If not, how about a circumcision?
     
  7. Mildredop macrumors 68020

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  8. Chew Toy McCoy macrumors regular

    Chew Toy McCoy

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  9. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #9
    I don't know why in the US circumcision is still so popular.
    Pediatrician was so happy when we told him that we weren't going to do it on our American born kid. He went on a rant that most people do it without even knowing why.
     
  10. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

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    #10
    I sensed that was your feeling which prompted me to add mine.
     
  11. Gjwilly macrumors 68030

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    #11
    Parents CAN get babies ears pierced.
    They can also get breast implants and vaginoplasty for their minor daughters.
    In all cases, circumcision included, the parents pay the bill.
    Is your question why are hospitals doing it (the answer is money) or why are hospitals allowed to do it?
     
  12. MacNut macrumors Core

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    #12
    It's not that big.
     
  13. Zenithal macrumors 68040

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    #13
    The issue of circumcision is incredibly personal and no government oversight is required in the US unless there's illegal female circumcision. Though, I don't believe this is common in the Americas whereas it is in Europe and often witnessed in ME immigrants and similar cultures that place little value in females. It can be argued that if a child or rather an infant is not capable of providing consent, then the surgery should not take place, and that the parent should not purposefully mutilate their child's penis for whichever reason they hold, be it religious or cleanliness. However, it could be argued that a parent shouldn't have control over their minor's body. The reason no attorney or politician wants to breach the subject is because it'll set off a wave of lawsuits that will then attempt to ban parental oversight when it comes to medicine. This, of course, has zero effect if the minor in question is emancipated by the courts. The law sees the minor as one who isn't looked after by an adult and is capable of making their own decisions and doesn't need adult consent to do anything.

    It shouldn't surprise anyone when I saw that circumcision falls under the purview of religious freedom, and that a Republican senator authored a bill that passed the house that protected the religious rights of Christians, Muslims and Jews when it came to animal slaughter as a holy ritual or circumcision.
     
  14. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. SLC Flyfishing, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016

    SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #15
    As I mentioned in the mega-thread that was linked to above...circumcision has a number of documented medical benefits. Chiefly lowering the rate of UTI, which in the neonatal stage is most common in boys and is more likely to become serious and lead to severe morbidity or even mortality.

    Circumcision reduces the rate by ~10x.

    And the complication rate overall is vanishingly small.

    We can wait till a boy turns 18 and can give legal consent for himself, but that eliminates the ability to protect against neonatal UTI, and waiting till then comes with a complication rate that is higher.

    As a result, we let the parents decide and consent for their child; just like we do with all other aspects of medical care.
     
  16. lostngone, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016

    lostngone thread starter macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #16
    Wait, so we as a society are okay with mutilation as long as it falls under "religious freedom"?
    --- Post Merged, Dec 9, 2016 ---
    It is mutation of the human body.
    So how many children suffer and get infections from ingrown finger/toe nails. Look at the studies that show how much bacteria lives under our finger nails. How many infants have scratched their own eyes with their finger nails. Should we give parents an option to have those removed after birth as well?
     
  17. steve knight macrumors 68020

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    #17
    Isn't it just a matter of learning good hygiene for the parent then the child? I mean we seemed to have done done dine for millennia without it.
     
  18. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #18
    This post is probably not worth replying to TBH, but OK...

    You do realize that humans don't have a tube that's open to the environment going from their fingernails directly to a pair of vital internal organs, right? Fingernails and foreskins can't be compared the way you are trying to compare them.

    If you can show evidence of a risk of sepsis and death from paronychia or corneal abrasion then I'm very interested.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 9, 2016 ---
    Nope, apparently not. Most male neonates don't get UTI; but when they do, a big chunk of them end up septic; and a not insignificant number of those end up dying.

    Circumcising reduces the rate of these UTI's by 10x
     
  19. tshrimp macrumors 6502

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    #19
    From the Mayo Clinic:

    Circumcision might have various health benefits, including:

    • Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. Washing beneath the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis is generally easy, however.
    • Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The overall risk of urinary tract infections in males is low, but these infections are more common in uncircumcised males. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.
    • Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men might have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Still, safe sexual practices remain essential.
    • Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of the foreskin or head of the penis.
    • Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men. In addition, cervical cancer is less common in the female sexual partners of circumcised men.

    Some people like to say it is cruel, and IMO it is more cruel if you don't have it done. Either way...leave it up to the parents.
     
  20. lostngone, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016

    lostngone thread starter macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

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    #20
    Numbers/facts please. You make the claim that "not insignificant number of those end up dying". I did a quick search and did not find any data on adolescent males dying from UTIs diretly linked to being uncircumcised.

    However here is a study from 2010 that states 117 male infants die every year from issues related to circumcision. Does 117 babies meet your "not insignificant" qualifier or does it need to be larger?

    http://www.academia.edu/6394940/Lost_Boys_An_Estimate_of_U.S._Circumcision-Related_Infant_Deaths
     
  21. SLC Flyfishing, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016

    SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #21
    Your "study" reads more like an opinion piece, is not published in a major respected journal, and leans incredibly heavily on assumptions and case reports from as far back as the mid-1800's. In other words, it's essentially complete tripe.

    Numerous other high quality studies, published in respected and widely cited major journals have shown the complication rate for circumcision to be very very low.

    With respect to adolescent UTI's, I'm not sure why you're rattling on about that. I clearly pointed out that it's neonatal UTI's we're most concerned about. Neonatal meaning those occurring in those 3months old or less. It's in that age group that UTI is actually more common in boys than girls, and it's in that age group that UTI has a much higher chance of progressing into a systemic infection and/or death.

    Anyway, it's all detailed in the following link (from the circumcision megathread a year or two ago):

     
  22. ibookg409 Suspended

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  23. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #23
    Like vaccinations?
     
  24. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #24
    Yes
     
  25. obeygiant macrumors 68040

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    #25
    All this talk of foreskin has put me off my tea..
     

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