Why is High Sierra so horrible?

sup123a

macrumors newbie
Aug 21, 2018
4
0
Windows 10 update broke my 15 month old Dell laptop and my home built computer. I spent 4 hours on the phone with Microsoft, and they did not have a solution to fix the laptop. Thousands of users have complained about the recent Windows 10 update.

I erased the hard drive of my home built computer and installed Windows 7. The other 2 hard drives in the computer have Mac OS.
Sorry to hear that.
Actually, my "next machine" is the machine for outside work which will replace my macbook air 2014 11".
I already own 2 Windows laptop and 2 Windows desktop. They are for gaming, file server and casual internet browsing. They run Windows 10 fine in recent update. One annoying is that Sometimes Windows does not connect Wifi automatically after startup.
I also have other 3 mac machines at home and that will be all my mac. No more of them in future buying.
 
Last edited:

chucker23n1

macrumors 68030
Dec 7, 2014
2,902
3,751
How do you avoid APFS. Isn't automatic when you install HS?
As the link states, you can skip the conversion. I'm not sure this is still true as of 10.13.6, though. I also don't see it as good advice. APFS has had some problems, but by and large, I don't see at all how it is "very beta file system software".

Here are some of the issues:

  • if you use a sparse disk image with APFS inside, it will calculate available space incorrectly and write data that can't actually be preserved (because the space isn't actually there). That's a fairly severe reliability bug, but you're unlikely to use this feature.
  • performance seems a little hit-and-miss.
  • it's prone to fragmentation, which is pretty much only relevant on hard disks, not on flash storage. On Mojave, a defragmentation mechanism was added.
  • Disk Utility has various UI glitches. The command-line tooling (diskutil) doesn't appear to.
  • Both Disk Utility and diskutil, however, feel incomplete. There's no such thing as merging two containers, for example.
 
  • Like
Reactions: foliovision

alvindarkness

macrumors 6502a
Jul 11, 2009
557
392
[doublepost=1525805999][/doublepost]The new APFS is allegedly slows the startup time and enabling trim force helps, depending on what mac machine you running. you do it in terminal. very simple process. requires a reboot to enable it. the command is: sudo trimforce enable.
No its the reverse. There was a bug found quite a while ago now where having trim enabled on some APFS set ups added a good 15 to 30 seconds of boot time. It was investigated over on the hackintosh side of the fence by piker and others, but also showed up on some proper Apple configurations (with Apple SSD's). It seems the original poster has gone AWOL, but if you are around sir, temporary disable trim, and see if it solves your boot time and lagging issues.
 

Tech198

macrumors G5
Mar 21, 2011
14,309
1,731
Australia, Perth
I purposely completely wiped, re-partioned to HFS+, clean installed High Sierra..

Yes, i went that far, because i hates APFS..

I couldn't see any benifeit when copying, since its already fast with SSD anyway.

No its the reverse. There was a bug found quite a while ago now where having trim enabled on some APFS set ups added a good 15 to 30 seconds of boot time. It was investigated over on the hackintosh side of the fence by piker and others, but also showed up on some proper Apple configurations (with Apple SSD's). It seems the original poster has gone AWOL, but if you are around sir, temporary disable trim, and see if it solves your boot time and lagging issues.
..and if you enable FileVault, the boot time is tripped :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: vkd

alvindarkness

macrumors 6502a
Jul 11, 2009
557
392
I purposely completely wiped, re-partioned to HFS+, clean installed High Sierra..

Yes, i went that far, because i hates APFS..

I couldn't see any benifeit when copying, since its already fast with SSD anyway.



..and if you enable FileVault, the boot time is tripped :)
I did the same after two irreparable failures with APFS, where the container wouldnt mount at all, let alone boot. At least with HPFS there's enough tools to get you out of a tough spot.

But my previous post was aimed at the thread creator, who complained specifically about boot times after switching to HS. This was covered to death when HS was released, not sure why no one posted about it in the 11 pages of this thread already.


https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/80615

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macos-high-sierra-slow-boot-up.2075487/

https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/330430-high-sierra-slow-booting-with-trim-enabled/
 
  • Like
Reactions: Morpheo and vkd

Morpheo

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2014
1,273
1,576
Paris/Montreal
I did the same after two irreparable failures with APFS, where the container wouldnt mount at all, let alone boot. At least with HPFS there's enough tools to get you out of a tough spot.

But my previous post was aimed at the thread creator, who complained specifically about boot times after switching to HS. This was covered to death when HS was released, not sure why no one posted about it in the 11 pages of this thread already.
I also posted this a few days ago in our own "slow boot" thread:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/slow-boot.2072585/page-13#post-26352691


The root cause is APFS does TRIM all the free space while booting.
That might take some time for some third party disks.
SSD needs implementing "background TRIMing" to make things done fast.
And I know some SSD simply doing FAKE TRIMMING if it cannot finish the task within a time period.
There's no data integrity issue for this kind of faking.

Basically I think this is a bad design of Apple. Considering you have a big SSD (say 4TB), even a SSD faking all the TRIM command, it might take quite a while for tons of requests go back and forth.

It seems the only solution to this is to switch to either a "background TRIMMING" SSD, or using "fake trimming" SSD. You cannot tell......
 

25ghosts

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2008
280
388
A simple answer to that question is.... Jobs is dead and no one other than him had the magic.

Apple's team has proven that they are no innovative than Microsoft and everyone else...

MacOS HS and Mojave are worse with simple and dumb bugs than Window's latest version...

But Hey --- The man who will go down in history as a Emoji Craig ensures that with each horrible upgrade that OS has childish Emojis........ Because Apple want to appeal to the younger people and they honestly believe that this is the way to do it....

I am getting SO disgusted with this company that I wanna puke !@
 

OriginalAppleGuy

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2016
620
548
Virginia
Hey @25ghosts then just leave! If it's making you that sick, go. As someone who has supported various versions of Windows over the years I'll agree the latest versions are somewhat better than in the past (don't upgrade at each new release if you like your files though ;-) ) But to call Windows better than these past versions of Mac OSX? No way, not even close. But seriously, leave. Stop putting yourself through the mental anguish!
 
  • Like
Reactions: crjackson2134

grandIOSe

macrumors member
Sep 17, 2017
48
22
Buenos Aires
As someone who comes from Linux / Unix environment, I much rather use MacOS than Windows. Yes, it's not perfect. There are bugs and design flaws, but so are there in any other software platform you can think of. That's what updates are for.

From a standpoint of Privacy, Security, and to be frank, ease of use, I would much rather be using a Mac with MacOS, than one of tens of thousands of laptops with Windows.

I am on a MBA early 2015 model, and I am still very happy. If you're not, I suggest you move and be happy.
 

Crunch

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2008
701
74
Crazy L.A.
Yes, and apparently, Mojave makes things worse by no longer supporting the font smoothing because of an expired agreement with Microsoft. This is only relevant for those on less-than-4K panels, but there's a ton of people with those still.

By the way, where can one download High Sierra 10.13.6 now that Mojave is out?? I can't find it in my Purchased section. Even THAT is being made difficult for us.

And there are no more iPhones that you can use with one hand anymore either. WTFFFFFFFF....
 

chucker23n1

macrumors 68030
Dec 7, 2014
2,902
3,751
Yes, and apparently, Mojave makes things worse by no longer supporting the font smoothing because of an expired agreement with Microsoft.
Wut?

First of all, Mojave still has font smoothing. What it no longer has is subpixel rendering.

Second, given that Microsoft is also phasing out subpixel rendering, I don't see what an agreement has to do with anything.

Lastly, there are technical reasons. Apple never implemented subpixel rendering in the GPU, so it never worked in Core Animation-backed views, which is also why iOS never had it (since anything in iOS is Core Animation-backed, whereas on macOS, most traditional views are Core Graphics-backed). In Mojave, almost anything gets opted into Core Animation where possible.

Implementing subpixel rendering in the GPU is hard, and on retina displays, the returns are small. So, Apple didn't bother.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tromboneaholic

watpomp

macrumors newbie
Jun 5, 2019
4
4
Reading this thread made my blood boil to the point where I decided to make an account just to comment. First of all, the last time my mid 2010 13" mbp 2.66, 16gb ram and 1TB 850EVO ran smooth was Mavericks. Mavericks is super smooth and fast. Since then, its become a laggy dumpster fire.

In fact, I am gonna go back and reinstall Mavericks and call it a day. I am sick of having all my apps disappear into the circle of death, for USELESS features I do NOT need or want.

According to the majority of you, I should just pitch my 3 13" mbps, my 3 11" mbas, my Mac pro and others directly into the trash, because they are suddenly incapable of working normally after an OS upgrade. This is also why my iphone 6s + 128gb is on iOS10. I don't CARE about new features, what i DO CARE ABOUT is my phone being as fast as the day I bought it, which, thanks to my refusal to update, it 100% is.

I want my macs to run like they used to so I can use them for menial tasks while my main work rig renders. I am not expecting miracles, like Mojave to work great, BUT, if you are gonna allow OS updates, DON'T MAKE THEM RUIN PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE ON THEIR HARDWARE AS FORCED OBSOLESCENCE.

My old computers don't owe me anything anymore, BUT, they are far from useless, regardless what Apple and its crappy new OSes say. Yosemite, Sierra and High Sierra have all ran like A DUMPSTER FIRE.

All of you know better tho! I hope you have $6000+ for your new 2019 mac pros to run a OS with normal speed, and I have a SNEAKING SUSPICION, half of you can't even afford a car.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: foliovision and vkd

watpomp

macrumors newbie
Jun 5, 2019
4
4
Oh, and in addendum, even with 10.5 my upgraded G4s ran QUICK. They were made obsolete by the switch to Intel, not by a simple os update.

All hail the mighty "blue" apple!!!!! Throw your computers in the trash and buy imac pros and mac pros!! buy buy buy!!!!!
There hasn't been ANY significant leap in Consumer cpus for the last decade, but all your c2ds, i5s and i7s are garbage! LOL.
 

chucker23n1

macrumors 68030
Dec 7, 2014
2,902
3,751
what i DO CARE ABOUT is my phone being as fast as the day I bought it, which, thanks to my refusal to update, it 100% is.
I mean, great.

As long as you disconnect your devices, never install anything, and also don't use the batteries, ever, you can accomplish that.

Otherwise, that's a really silly expectation. Your device is connected to the Internet. The Web has gotten more complex. Sites have gotten slower to load. Apps have gained new functionality. Your batteries wear down. Technologies get added. Other technologies get deprecated.

The world of computers moves at a breathtaking pace. That's both a blessing and a curse. And there's nothing Apple can do about it. You want a 2010 computer to work the same as on day one? Good luck with that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: three and smirking

watpomp

macrumors newbie
Jun 5, 2019
4
4
I mean, great.

As long as you disconnect your devices, never install anything, and also don't use the batteries, ever, you can accomplish that.

Otherwise, that's a really silly expectation. Your device is connected to the Internet. The Web has gotten more complex. Sites have gotten slower to load. Apps have gained new functionality. Your batteries wear down. Technologies get added. Other technologies get deprecated.

The world of computers moves at a breathtaking pace. That's both a blessing and a curse. And there's nothing Apple can do about it. You want a 2010 computer to work the same as on day one? Good luck with that.
Hilarious. The only thing I don't have are NEW EMOJIS which I do NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT, EVERYTHING ELSE WORKS PERFECTLY. ALL MY APPS ARE STILL UP TO DATE SINCE DEVELOPERS HAVEN'T BEEN FORCED INTO BLOCKING OFF OLDER iOS.

The ONLY app that has ANY issues is youtube, RIGHT AFTER AN UPDATE features are broken that worked perfectly right before the update, but that's just normal google imitating apple. Lets add features NO ONE WANTED, and "fix" features people use by adding bugs to them! Yeah! Epic, lets add forced youtube music pop ups, and make playlists randomly pause waiting for your interaction with the phone, so your battery doesn't drain playing youtube when you dropped dead from a heart attack.

I never said I want my 2010s to run like BRAND NEW MODERN computers, They will never keep up with my 6 core i7 ROG, but, I do want them to work as well as they did BEFORE an OS update that artificially cripples them. I want them to be responsive like they were BEFORE an update. Its not just the boot times ( which have been solved above and elsewhere) its things like preview lagging, scrolling in any web browser lagging, long load times for files to generate preview thumbnails, all things that worked perfectly quick and smooth before the crippling in newer osx happened.

My mba 11" late 2010 1.6ghz 4gb 128ssd runs circles around my mbp mid 2010 2.66ghz 16gb 1th ssd. It exibits zero of the lag that the 13" does. The difference is that the mba has 10.9, the mbp has 10.13. When the 13" was on 10.9, it was butter smooth as well. 10.10 is where suddenly my 13" could no longer keep up with simple mundane tasks like file preview.

So, kiddo, how is it that a computer with half the specs runs circles around a much faster computer with decked out specs???? I know, my 13" MUST be broken! That's the ONLY explanation! Unfortunately for you, I happen to own 3 identical mbas, so I installed 10.13 on another. MOLASSES. became unusable. I even swapped the ssd into my 10.9 machine to eliminate the fact that all my computers "must be broken" and guess what? It wasn't pleasant to use.

CC 2019 and my favorite software runs JUST FINE under 10.9, so I can work on the go without lugging around a brick.

Your arrogance is hilarious. I was building computers before you were even born. My power mac dual g4 was modded to the point where it could run Prey, an xbox 360 port, in full resolution, with high to max settings at over 60fps in 10.5.... Funny, that computer was 10 years old when Prey came out with G5s recommended as minimum specs.

You are mentioning things that have zero relevance on performance. Battery life? The battery in my iphone 6s+ is degraded to 70% of its initial value, yeah, i know how to check those stats, imagine that... and has had ZERO impact on the phone's performance. You know why? I AM ON AN IOS VERSION THAT DIDN'T HAVE APPLE's BATTERY PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT. Its as quick at 10% battery as it is fully charged, with a degraded battery.

Apps haven't added ANY load. What has ACTUALLY happened is that programmers got LAZY and started to program with insane overheads in modern ram and cpu. Why make light code that is easy to execute when you can just poo out whatever crap you want and depend on core i7s and 32gb of ram to run at 100% to crunch it out, looking at you, Youtube and google chrome.

That reminds me, I have the perfect new "app" for you, its called Bonzai Buddy! You should totally download it! zomgs

I hope you have $5999 for a new mac pro, you're gonna need it with Catalina and Emoji update 3!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

These aren't the days of the Commodore 64. There hasn't been ANY significant overhaul of architecture between a C2D and a core i7 that renders the C2D obsolete in basic tasks. As a "computer expert", you should be well aware of that.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: foliovision

smirking

macrumors 68020
Aug 31, 2003
2,417
1,833
Silicon Valley
Hilarious. The only thing I don't have are NEW EMOJIS which I do NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT, EVERYTHING ELSE WORKS PERFECTLY. ALL MY APPS ARE STILL UP TO DATE SINCE DEVELOPERS HAVEN'T BEEN FORCED INTO BLOCKING OFF OLDER iOS.

Apps haven't added ANY load. What has ACTUALLY happened is that programmers got LAZY and started to program with insane overheads in modern ram and cpu. Why make light code that is easy to execute when you can just poo out whatever crap you want and depend on core i7s and 32gb of ram to run at 100% to crunch it out, looking at you, Youtube and google chrome.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Wow. Where do we even start with this? It was breathtaking both in its lack of awareness and lack of decorum. To top it all off, even SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS for the win.

At least he didn't subject us to an emoji storm.
 

foliovision

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2008
39
28
Bratislava
I mean, great.

As long as you disconnect your devices, never install anything, and also don't use the batteries, ever, you can accomplish that.

Otherwise, that's a really silly expectation. Your device is connected to the Internet. The Web has gotten more complex. Sites have gotten slower to load. Apps have gained new functionality. Your batteries wear down. Technologies get added. Other technologies get deprecated.

The world of computers moves at a breathtaking pace. That's both a blessing and a curse. And there's nothing Apple can do about it. You want a 2010 computer to work the same as on day one? Good luck with that.
Your ideas are those of a silly Pavlovian dog trained to bark at Apple's command. You are aware that there's been 15% drop in productivity over the last seven years or so in the United States. The direct reason is the endless "moving of the cheese" of these idiot OS manufacturers. Five new versions of Android, seven new version iOS, six new version of Mac OS. For almost zero improvement.

If you were intelligent, you'd just throw away your smartphone. I did. And now I have enough time to requalify myself as a pro photographer in my spare time. It's a hell of a lot more satisfying than updating pointless apps for their even more pointless improvements. Better for your privacy as well. Ironically – as privacy should tumble when making photographs.

It's so sad to see you kool-aid drinking punks fighting to defend Apple as if that stock market price driven behemoth (it was a personal company and a mission with Steve Jobs) could care less about its users at this point as it pumps out non-improvements and $1200 iPhones. What is it with you lot, Stockholm syndrome?
 
  • Like
Reactions: maverick28

watpomp

macrumors newbie
Jun 5, 2019
4
4
Wow. Where do we even start with this? It was breathtaking both in its lack of awareness and lack of decorum. To top it all off, even SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS for the win.

At least he didn't subject us to an emoji storm.
Wow is right, Ostrich. Lack of awareness? LOL. We? Us? Sorry, do people refer to themselves as plural now? Are you the official spokesperson for the forum? Are you the borg? All hail apple royalty!

[doublepost=1559864193][/doublepost]
What is it with you lot, Stockholm syndrome?
Emojis and your laptop mimicking your iphone during an incoming call ( because picking up the phone is too hard) are more important than a OS that doesn't lag when you are in the middle of mission critical work that earns you your bread and butter! DUH
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: foliovision