Why is it so hard to unite a nation for a cause?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Rebel, Mar 15, 2004.

  1. Rebel macrumors newbie

    Nov 15, 2003
    I posed this question in another forum, and this is a reply I received. How do you all feel about it?

    From Kenny:
    Why are Americans so passive? I think it's because people no longer think for themselves. They have been taught to think what they learned in our colleges and universities and what the news media says. They have been taught to accept everything they read and hear as truth. Some people just don't think it will happen to them because the government will protect them.
    Think about it. Who controls the books that are taught in our schools from kindergarten on up? The Dept of education. Isn't it possible they have been slowly over time brainwashing people into accepting a different way of looking at things? A different way of thinking.

    I notice this different thought process between those that never attended college and those that do. Common sense in very short supply to most college educated people. I can hear growls about that. I'm talking the plain old-fashioned down to earth sense where a person could figure things out for himself and make things work.

    Many people I meet that have the higher education, if it's out of their field they are lost. I had a college-educated lady tell me one day that I couldn't fix her leaking stool because I wasn't a plumber. Another time a person said I couldn't hook up their VCR to program TV shows because I was not an electronics technician or I could not fix the rattle in someone’s car because I was not a mechanic. They thought I was just a dumb old farmer. There is no such thing as a dumb farmer. It takes a large degree of sense and the ability to figure things out for yourself, to make it as a farmer.

    There isn't much doubt in my mind as to what's happening in this country. Either people are afraid to look ahead and see where the country is headed or they have a vague idea but don't have sense enough to figure out how to fix it. Nobody wants to get involved. Same old "The Government will protect us.” I'd better quit. I could go on and on with this topic and my many experiences with it. I probably stirred up a hornet’s nest already.

    UCAnation.org Changing the nation for you.
  2. zimv20 macrumors 601


    Jul 18, 2002
    i'm not buying the DoE(ducation) conspiracy theory.

    why is hard to unite behind a cause? 'cuz it's hard to get 292,000,000 americans to agree on anything. even anything as simple as the right to breathe clean air.
  3. pseudobrit macrumors 68040


    Jul 23, 2002
    Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
    Sounds like she needed a gastroenterologist.

    What's your point? Some people are just stupid, education or no.

    You haven't met enough farmers.

    For the last time, will you STOP with your Ponzi scheme **** already!!!
  4. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

    Jul 16, 2002

  5. Rebel thread starter macrumors newbie

    Nov 15, 2003
    Read up on the definition of a ponzi scheme.

    At least I am trying to make changes within this world of ours instead of just bitching about it in forums. Do you think your words here will really have an affect on the world at large? You are wasting your fingers for no gain whats-so-ever.

    However, it is your right as an American to post your beliefs as you see fit - and it is my right to post mine. As I ignore your ideals, feel free to ignore mine.

    History is made by the dedicated few. Effective organizations will always succeed against apathetic majorities as long as they remain pure in their efforts and do not abuse the trust that members bestow upon them. It will not take millions to stop them, but it will take many more Americans than are involved today. If everyone who is aware helps another to understand; if the newly informed also awaken others; and if many of them come together under an effective organization to challenge and expose abusive and corrupt government, the tide of battle will be turned in the American Citizens favor.

    United Citizens of America - Changing the nation for you.
  6. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Jul 4, 2003
    Terlingua, Texas
    Rebel, there is a vast difference between generating a majority opinion (Protect the Environment!, e.g.) and getting a serious majority of an entire population to believe in your cause (Get bin Laden!). Typically, it takes an external threat to really create any degree of unity.

    Either UCA doesn't have much of interest to sell, or the sales technique needs help.

  7. wwworry macrumors regular

    Mar 23, 2002
    yea we all want to get bin laden

    but the idea of rewarding the super wealthy who use all the loopholes and buy off politicians to pay less taxes with a lower tax rate is stupid. Why not just concentrate on getting rid of loopholes and money in politics? That organization seems to be typical of republican doublespeak

    Say your tying to do one thing (tax reform) and actually doing another (lower taxes for the super wealthy).

    If you really want lower taxes for the middle class first we have to spend less on stupid wars like Iraq, spend less on give-aways to big business like the medicare law and ethanol subsidies and the new oil and gas subsidies and making people less dependant on govt. programs like welfare and SS disability (which has seen surprizing growth) and prison growth which is a mark of our collective failure to educate our youth, pull our troops out of Europe and Japan, and put in some real accounting measure for the pentagon which is the number one most super wasteful government department.
    and return the top tax bracket to 39% except raise the income limit for that to $400,000

    THere, I just saved you $600 billion a year. Now we have a surplus, we can pay off some of the debt (the interest alone on our debt is 10% of the yearly budget) and we can lower middleclass taxes and put some money into schools.
  8. wwworry macrumors regular

    Mar 23, 2002
    personnally I would put all the non-violent drug offenders (which we pay $30,000/year to incarcerate each) to work in community service cleaning things.

    maybe 30 days plus community service. 2nd time 90 dayss plus community service. 3rd time stricter.
  9. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    when i was young, i used to think that college would make a person more well rounded...well, it does in some very narrow topics ;)

    being self employed and a college graduate, i have found that the common sense concepts i have learned in having my own business are things that could never be learned in college

    college gave me some level of confidence and helped me in other ways but one thing i didn't like was the "specialization" of thinking within different majors...it is true to a degree that one is taught that they are a specialist in their field but nowhere else...so many become educated idiots being proficient in their field but nothing else and it appears that sometimes their brain shuts off on topics outside of their field of expertise ;)

    but in the end, we all cannot do all things and it is good that we have self taught experts and college educated experts...without college, or some form of formal education, our society would not have a well organized group of doctors, dentists, educators, etc

    but if everyone had to go to college, i suspect we would lose our american know how because a lot of what made our country great were people who thought outside of the box, and that is something that can not be taught in a classroom

    btw...great thread and great points made
  10. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000

    the day all americans agree on anything is the day we are not america, as we know it

    let's suppose all americans became green party members in the next century and the party became the only political voice for our nation...who would police the green party with their use of, let's say, vehicles that pollute the environment?

    would a political party police itself when there was nobody out there to oppose them? would anybody point out hypocrisies made by the green party if they polluted in any way?

    what would most likely happen is that the party would become unrecognizeable from the party it started out to be when it was not the only one out there...having at least one major opponet to oppose your ideas and point out your inconsistencies and blow the whistle is a good thing because it brings in checks and balances
  11. numediaman macrumors 6502a

    Jan 5, 2004
    Chicago (by way of SF)
    It is hard to have a serious discussion in this country when flinging slime is the norm (see below). Bush just released ads that claim Kerry voted against pay for the military and vests for the troops. The ads claim this because Kerry voted against the $87 billion bill on Iraq. In fact, the war was already over (at least the invasion stage).

    By the way, the claim that Kerry said he had the support of "foreign" leaders was completely wrong. The reporter from the Boston Globe admitted his error -- but you don't see the Republicans stopping in their attacks.

    Kerry Pushed on Claim as Reporter Corrects Quote
    Senator referred to 'more leaders,' not 'foreign leaders,' who want Bush out. GOP is demanding names.

    WASHINGTON — The Bush administration and its supporters Monday continued to pressure Sen. John F. Kerry to identify the foreign leaders he claims want him to defeat President Bush this November, adding that if he doesn't name names, his claim must be untrue . . .

    . . .The Boston Globe reporter who was covering a Florida fundraiser for Kerry on March 8 wrote in a pool report, which was distributed to the rest of the press corps, that Kerry said he had spoken with "foreign leaders" who had indicated they want him to beat Bush.

    But on Monday, the reporter said that, upon review of his tape, he realized that Kerry had in fact said "more leaders" want him to beat Bush.​

    Attached Files:

  12. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    it's amazing how that cartoon paints kerry as a friend of the dictators when it is the gop who backed saddam and noriega
  13. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Jul 4, 2003
    Terlingua, Texas
    Just reading this thread--as well as many others--should provide a clue as to why it's difficult to create unity.

    :D, 'Rat
  14. zimv20 macrumors 601


    Jul 18, 2002
    no it shouldn't!

  15. jennyjennydz macrumors newbie

    Mar 2, 2004
    My first guess is there's something in the water.

    My second guess is that it's a direct consequence of 25 years of wedge politics by both parties. She is a white, Republican, conservative, pro-life, pro-gun, anti-tax, pro-death penalty, affluent, educated SUV owner. He is a black, Democrat, liberal, pro-choice, anti-gun, socially conscious, anti-death penalty, middle class, educated Ford owner. Oh but they're both American. Yeah they'll get along.

  16. wwworry macrumors regular

    Mar 23, 2002
    the GOP wants Kerry to name names but they still won't reveal

    who outed the CIA agent Palme
    who broke into the DNC computers
    who was at the energy policy meetings
    what was said in Cheney's private meeting with Justice Scalia
    what was in the intelligence breifings the president had before 9/11
    why they lied about Iraq
  17. Rebel thread starter macrumors newbie

    Nov 15, 2003
    The UCA has a partnership with another organization called the United States Patriots. In discussion with this organization, the general feeling is; Americans just are not angry enough to get involved. Which is shocking because we all see the massive abuse going on at every level of our governments institutions. The UCA will stay the course and someday Americans will wake-up and get involved.

    UCAnation - Changing the nation for you.
  18. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    i hope it is a sound organization

    some so called patriots in america are traitors and want anything from a violent communist overthrow of the usa to a statist neo nazi america, both of which are nowhere in the same neighborhood as the america the founding fathers found

    at least today's democrats and republicans, no matter how tasteless and crass they can be, are still in the same neighborhood as the founding fathers

    sure, they have strayed but they are not the extremists on the left and right that pop out of the woodwork from time to time who look to hitler, mao, stalin, or castro as a role model
  19. jennyjennydz macrumors newbie

    Mar 2, 2004
    Part of the brilliance of the founding fathers is their clear and unambiguous acceptance of their own fallability. They understood the had not achieved a utopia in the U.S. or its Constitution, but they felt it offered a framework for positive growth.

    Please do not make the intellectually dishonest mistake of lumping all those outside the mainstream parties into the categories of "extremist" and "traitor" and "violent."

    If we're mentioning paragons of evil, it would be wise to add a western name or two to the list. Just ask the families of millions of dead Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians/Hmong, the hundreds of thousands of dead latinos, or the victims of the Irish potato famine and I'm sure they'd come up with one or two or three to go with the madmen you listed.


  20. Rebel thread starter macrumors newbie

    Nov 15, 2003

    I don't know if I would go so far as say, "they are in the same neighborhood". However, they are still Americans - which is a very good thing. But, they are far too removed from the lives of the ordinary man to be considered neighborly.

    You have to remember that the primary reason our nations founders went to war was due to increasing monarchy taxation. Our founders felt that the tax burden was stifling colonial-mans ability to make a better life for themselves and their families. Their thinking was - why bust their backs to make the monarchy wealthier. The original taxation guidelines that our founders initiated states:

    "No captivation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken". (Meaning that they cannot tax citizens without a citizen census being taken first.)

    This law held for 201 years until our modern politicians felt they knew better than our founders did. Coincidently, it is roughly around this timeframe that government spending sharply increased along with our nation’s debt. In 1977, our modern day politicians instituted the following amendment.

    1977 Amendment XVI "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration". (Meaning that they could care less what the citizens think if they want to tax us, they can and there is not a darn thing we can do about it.)

    Unbelievably, we are at the same crossroad today that our founders faced in our nations beginning. On average, 43% of our income earnings go into government coffers today. The average person is barely staying even - let alone even thinking of moving to a better position in life. Our founders knew that excessive taxation was stifling a person’s ability to achieve their dreams, and this fact was very bad for the dream they had for our nation. It is up to us citizens, united under one voice, to bring this faded dream back into focus.

    UCAnation.org If we hope to succeed, everything we do must be based on morality and for the betterment of all American citizens - forever more.
  21. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    it's shocking how much our govt taxes people and sometimes i think our president, favoring the very rich, wants to make a caste system and a monarchy style govt where the working man cannot catch up with the rich...he is against a fair wage and he lets medical insurance go haywire while his pharmaceutical friends laugh all the way to the bank

    i hope america does not come to a point where we have two classes, rich and poor, like colonial era england, which we escaped from in the first place

    i did a google search on united states patriots and all i got were either terrorist organizations or illegal crime groups...i hope you don't deal with those people to try and change the problems of america

    i do admit that sometimes the us government could be no better than an extremist group or illegal crime gang...one example is the fbi under j edgar hoover...now i admit he was as bad as they get

    i saw an interesting set of shows on the history channel and they got into the dirt of his organization's activities and his exploits rivaled those of the mob and the kkk

    while trying to take down the mob, he just moved in and basically took over as the next mobster

    while fighting the kkk, he infiltrated the organizations but his men were seen beating and intimidating black civil rights people

    while fighting civil rights, yes he also fought them too as he did against the kkk, his fbi agents tried to stop martin luther king and threatened his life with written death threats

    so with the exploits of a gangland style leader of the fbi, like hoover, and some the the death squad exploits of the cia and their friends abroad, it is no wonder that those govt groups outrage regular american citizens like you and me

    where i draw the line is fighting fire with fire...i think the right and left wing extremist groups armed to the teeth with weapons or an illegal crime gang are not the way to counteract the more violent groups of our government...then they would end up being the same darn thing as the abomination *ie-hoover's fbi, and it would make no sense

    i have seen some left wing extremist groups up close since i live near berkeley, ca and some of those people, while small in number, are true believers and very dangerous...some are actually mentally ill, some are ex-patriots from the jungles of vietnam via special forces, and with the combination of hyper liberalism and anger that can overtake some groups around the college campus, it is not hard to find some outright communist groups armed and ready to strike...many have thought that some of these groups just disbanded at the end of the sixties, but i tell you now, they are alive and wedged underground just under the surface

    equally dangerous are the right wing groups angry at the govt and while not likely to be hanging around in berkeley, they are prolly found in the more conservative cities in the us

    if ever both these sides, who have the us govt in common as an enemy, ever got together in an organized fashion, i think there would be a small, but violent war

    i have no doubt that the us govt would prevail, but many innocent civilians would die and nothing would be achieved in the end...the govt would crack down and in doing so, they would implicate totally innocent civilians and in that case the us govt and the extremist groups of the left and right would all be equally at fault

    what is great about america is if we don't like it, we can vote...carter pissed us off so we put in reagan...bush sr pissed us off so we put in clinton so if one day neither a dem or a republican can capture our imagination, then i am sure we will bring in a third candidate

    i think perot, ventura, and nader were serious wake up calls and the great thing about democracy is that there is no limit to how many parties can be formed

    i hope W does not abuse his homeland security act, otherwise he will be sent home packing and will have to return to being daddy's never do well offspring ;)
  22. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    i totally agree that the founding fathers knew that they were fallible and this leads to a great and "changing for the better" nation

    i definitely will not lump all groups outside of the mainstream as violent and i know many of them, like moveon.org, are angry and wanting legitimate change peacefully

    there are many groups on the left and right, and center for that matter, that are not mainstream and great for america's continued evolution and growth

    at the same time, we cannot let illegal and violent groups of the left and right gain the upper hand and distinguish democracy and freedom in america

    it's a very delicate political eco-system and it does not always weed out dictators from the mainstream...like i mentioned in previous post, i think j edgar hoover, former head of the fbi through seven us presidents, was the worst enemy to freedom...perhaps in us history

    i think our legislators have to see to it that no one person, like hoover, can ever gain that type of power in the us government and treat it like his own tin horn dictator playground
  23. Rebel thread starter macrumors newbie

    Nov 15, 2003
    You can find the link to the USP at the United Citizens of America partner links page http://www.ucanation.org/partner links.htm

    They have a slightly different view than the UCA on how to change things. The UCA's view is very peaceful but aggressive at the same time. We feel that an income only taxation system, at every level of government, is the only way to get our elected leaders working for the people again.

    As far as our homeland security act. My personal belief is - it will not be abused too badly in the near future. But if it is not repealed in the long run, the future citizens of our nation will be seriously abused by government institutions.
  24. jefhatfield Retired


    Jul 9, 2000
    i hope the homeland security act gets those terrorist bastards of al qaeda

    i will never forgive or forget what bin laden has done to us and if he is alive, we should do everying in our power to get him...wasting time on saddam in iraq with our money and troops was a horrific waste, especially since there is no wide consensus that he had ties to bin laden or wmd's...all we really know for sure is saddam killed many kurds, the same kurds who are loyal and friendly to bin laden so i doubt there is a serious bin laden-saddam link there ;)

    though i am a democrat, i do not share in many of my fellow democrat's big fear of W's homeland security act as a way to gain an upper hand...now with nixon, i would not be so sure ;)

    but you are right, if the homeland security act stays up too long, somebody will abuse it horribly and then the terrorists would have won...they wanted to scare the usa into dropping its freedoms and no longer being the usa as we know it...we can't let al qaeda change our way of life and there is no way this groups, rumored to be just in the tens of thousands worldwide, is going to bring us 300 million americans and billions of free citizens in the world to our knees

    that being said, since most of their terrorist cells are small and even one person operations, it is hard to catch them and it will take a homeland security being operational for a long time to catch all the al qaeda cells until they are rendered ineffective

    how long will dismatling al qaeda take? maybe decades and if in the end it takes giving palestine their own homeland like bin laden fights for, among other things, then so be it

    but that in itself, is a separate issue and while most terrorist activities among arabs can ultimately be traced to hating israel, we may need to give palestine their own land just for the human rights angle

    even colin powell, in W's staff, has mentioned that palestine should have a homeland...but i don't think w totally agrees with that...but time will tell

    man, i got off topic but when anger, terrorism, and al qaeda pop up, so does the plo, arafat and a palestinian homeland

    gee, no wonder why people think the third world war will be in the middle east over this issue or one closely related to it
  25. Rebel thread starter macrumors newbie

    Nov 15, 2003
    UCAnation - Changing the nation for you.

    Just to comment on the above point.

    I recently attended a wedding and was intrigued to hear numerous discussions regarding taxes. I mainly listened, and interjected comments here and there to keep the discussion flowing. (which became very colorful as the night and drinks flowed along) When I suggested ways in which they could get involved to help change happen, it seemed like I was talking in a different language.

    This just helps prove the point that every American is feeling the weight of budonsome taxation, and is disgusted with our abusive government spending habits, yet when a chance comes to get involved, they run like dear.

    With the Hugh debt facing our nation and every community in-between, our governments are going to have to raise taxes to extreme levels in the not too distant future - even higher than the current average of 43% per citizen. Maybe then, Americans will become angry enough to get involved. On the other hand, maybe people just like to be economic slaves to our abusive government.

    United Citizens of America

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