Withdrawal from Iraq - Is it the right move?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by OldCorpse, May 15, 2007.

  1. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    compost heap
    #1
    Most Americans think we should withdraw. However, there is a significant minority that thinks withdrawing will make the situation in Iraq worse. Surprisingly, some of that minority are Democrats.

    So is withdrawal from Iraq the right move? Many people pretend to have the answer. Here, a very interesting person who does not pretend to have clairvoyance, has his view:

    http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php/post/2786/Rory_Stewart_Discusses_Withdrawal

    Quote:

    "What would I do in Iraq now? I am not an expert, but I believe that the time has come to withdraw, that our presence is infantilizing the Iraqi political system. That we're like an inadequate antibiotic. We are sufficiently strong to have turned what might have been a conventional civil war into a highly unconventional neighborhood conflict. But we're not strong enough to eliminate it entirely. At the same time I fear that, without intending to, we have discredited democracy in the eyes of many Iraqis. We have created a situation in which many Iraqis now feel that the only way to keep security is to bring back a strongman. They are extremely skeptical of our programs and suggestions for development.

    I think that Iraqi politicians are considerably more competent, canny, and capable of compromise than we acknowledge. Iraqi nationalism, in my view, can trump the Shiite–Sunni divisions. Our continuing presence is encouraging Iraqi politicians to play hard-ball with each other. Were we to leave, they would be weaker and under more pressure to compromise. In our relations with the Iraqis we often blocked negotiations with Moqtada al-Sadr or Sunni insurgency leaders, or the offer of troop withdrawals and amnesties for former Baathists and insurgents, among others. Yet these will probably be elements in any kind of settlement.

    And therefore, my belief—and I emphasize this is my belief, not a certainty—is that were we to withdraw, things would improve. I say belief because that may not be the case. I can't predict the future. Iraq and its neighbors and its internal forces are extremely difficult to understand."
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #2
    Of course things will get worse when we withdraw. I think that's a given. The only issue is when we withdraw. Nothing can stop the bloodshed that's going to occur once we leave, no matter when that is. Nothing is going to stop the hatred amongst the Sunnis and Shiites nad the Iraqi government won't even begin to worry about security until we leave.
     
  3. emw macrumors G4

    emw

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    #3
    My belief is that if we were to withdraw, things would immediately get better.

    For our troops, that is. Which is why, I think, most Americans favor withdrawal. Truth be told, I don't think most of us consider the impact on Iraq. We don't really care. We're pissed that we were misled into this war and simply want to get our troops out of there so we can stop burying them.

    For the Iraqis, I think things would get much worse in the short term as factions fight for power in the space we leave behind. Longer term, things will improve - although I tend to think that democracy as we live it (such that it is) will not take hold in Iraq for some time, if ever. That's a significant cultural change, and isn't something you simply go and put into place and expect it to work immediately.

    This is why withdrawal is more complex. We screwed up their country. Maybe it wasn't the best place before; Saddam was a ruthless dictator. But he was their dictator to dispose of, not ours. As a result of our interference, we've likely left them worse off than they were before we got there. And so simply pulling out and telling them "sorry we screwed you over; we'll be leaving now" makes some people uneasy. Although I'd tend to believe that it's the best thing we could do, both for Iraq and for ourselves.

    Of course, I could be surprised - the Iraqis could be so happy we got the hell out that they'll actually work together just to spite us. But I doubt it.
     
  4. princealfie macrumors 68030

    princealfie

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Location:
    Salt Lake City UT
    #4
    We should leave immediately regardless of the consequences. Shouldn't have entered the cookie jar in the first place.
     
  5. Dr.Gargoyle macrumors 65816

    Dr.Gargoyle

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2004
    Location:
    lat: 55.7222°N, long: 13.1971°E
    #5
    The Iraq situation is really interesting since no matter what you do, it will end in a huge disaster.
    If there is a pull back, al-Quida controlled groups would be able to operate freely in the Sunni controlled areas. Moreover, it would leave Iraq open up for Iran to move forward their positions in the shiite areas and make Iran the controlling peace in the Mideast.
    Somehow that prospect just doesn't appeal to me.

    If US tries to tough it out, the bloodshed will go on forever. Just look at a similar conflict Israel/Palestine. The will soon celebrate their 60th anniversary.

    What did Rumsfeld say now again? "they will greet us in the streets with flowers and flags."

    I am most likely one of few people that actually have been to Iraq just before Desert war. I was in Fao at the build up before the Kuwait invasion. How it was possible to miss the massive gathering of troops and tanks is still a mystery to me.
    Iraq at the time was like another country ruled by a insane paranoid dictator. Any opposition, religious movements as well believed political opponents were killed without a trial. How anyone in their right mind could have believed Saddam supported a religious group that despised him is beyond me, or even worse being able to sell the idea without any noticeable resistance.
     
  6. geese macrumors 6502a

    geese

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Location:
    London, UK
    #6
    I cant imagine what that would have been like! Trifles, Ice-creams and jelly being thrown all over the shop:D

    Sorry, couldn't help it.:eek:
     
  7. Dr.Gargoyle macrumors 65816

    Dr.Gargoyle

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2004
    Location:
    lat: 55.7222°N, long: 13.1971°E
    #7
    LOL, I had that one coming...Too much emotions makes my spelling even worse than normal.
     
  8. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Location:
    New York, NY
    #8
    I think this is unfair for the Iraqis. I mean they did not do anything wrong. Their country gets invaded. Their industries, goverment, entire economy is turned upside down. And then you leave. How much do you really need to hurt Iraqis? It wasnt enough that America helped bring Saddam to power. That America supplied Saddam with Chemical weapons and allowed him to use them against Iraqis while vetoing any UN investigations into the use of them. Set up useless sanctions throughout the 90s. And finally invaded. ****ed up the entire country. And then left. Like seriously, is it any wonder why Iraqis think we are *******s? Like how deep to you need to penetrate their asses before you say they have been f**** over enough.

    So you think thats fair to the Iraqis? We ****ed up. So... ah yeah I'm just going to leave now. Thats like accidently knocking up a girl since you were half drunk and half forgot to use a condom (I didnt draw up the war plans!) and then bolt the minute she looks at u with that face. Is that the kind of person you want to be?
     
  9. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Location:
    toronto
    #9
    "half?"

    is that like taking it out of the package but not putting it on? or maybe it's putting on the wrapper by mistake...
     
  10. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Location:
    New York, NY
    #10
    Its sort of like knowing you need troops to invade a country, you really did not plan past that point. I guess taking it out and just leaving it on the floor would be a good analogy.
     
  11. geese macrumors 6502a

    geese

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Location:
    London, UK
    #11
    Its not fair at all. But do the coalition forces have the ability to improve things in Iraq at this point? That was the thrust of the original article.

    Leaving might not be the most 'just' thing to do, but it might be the only thing the coalition is actually *able* to that might help Iraq.
     
  12. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    compost heap
    #12
    Interesting.

    Now let us see if we can make the analogy more accurate. If Iraq is the girl in this scenario, then it's clearly more accurate to say she wasn't willing. It was therefore rape.

    As to plans not drawn up carefully - well, what can you say, our charmer is a spontaneous kinda guy. He doesn't do careful planning, he just makes up some lies and steps out for the night. He didn't plan out all the details. He thought he'd just pounce on her, deliver a few blows, she'd go into shock and awe, and give him her flower. Unfortunately he didn't plan on her resisting. She's still fighting. I guess he'll have to keep bludgeoning her until she no longer moves. That's when he'll be satisfied and can slink out with a clean conscience - cause you know, he doesn't want her to follow him home. Anyhow, she was asking for it, right? She provoked him, right? And you know how they are - she likes it! Besides, what if the whole neighborhood gets up in arms... there's that Syria guy, the Iran guy and so on - if he leaves now, they'll see him defeated by a girl, and his honor just can't stand that, cause as Cheney said "we want to come back with honor", see it's honor that keeping the rapist from leaving. Honor. Gotta keep raping. The night is still young.
     
  13. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Location:
    New York, NY
    #13
    No I do believe the forces can still help Iraq. Probably not in their current numbers. Nah scratch that, probably still in their current numbers they can help Iraq. They really do would be smart to go after UN help. Like seriously.
     
  14. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Location:
    New York, NY
    #14
    Umm... well I think a great deterrent to the "continual rapage" of small, third world country were if the US actually had to clean up the mess after they made it. They've been smart in recent times to merely pay off terrorist groups to do their dirty work in Afghanistan, Columbia, Kosovo. Then you never have to worry about the mess-up afterwards cause it looks like it wasn't you who raped them. But you see on this positive ID of US as rapee, I think a great motivation to stop is to have to deal with the child.
     
  15. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    compost heap
    #15
    I think a great deterrent to the rapist would be to remove his balls, not give him an opportunity to molest the child of his rape victim.

    Here's how you remove: we pass laws which prohibit war unless we are attacked, or another country is attacked. Any president who breaks that law by conspiring to forge evidence and lie us into a war should face mandatory trial with execution if found guilty. Same consequences for war profiteers, and their wealth is then confiscated and paid as reparations.

    That would go a lot further in stopping the criminals than giving them more chances to steal from the till in the guise of "helping" the 3rd world country they raped in the first place.
     
  16. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Location:
    New York, NY
    #16
    I believe those checks and balances as we like to coin them are present in the constitution. But when a president walks all over them.... well checks and balance really just became fancy little words.

    I definitely think a trial is in order. Death penalty. Nah... I prefer recuitment into the army and he foots the bill of the war or as much as the repo man can snatch.



    Helping. LOL. This is trying to clean up a mess, little different form helping.
     
  17. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    compost heap
    #17
    The constitution is not frozen as it was 200 years ago. We've had amendments. Clearly when there is so massive a failure, it is time to address the issue. We did that with voting, civil rights, slavery etc. The issue of war and peace clearly needs to be addressed - we have failed repeatedly (Vietnam etc.). Time to address the issue in a more comprehensive way.

    Watch the documentary I linked to in the other post. There you'll see a perfect illustration of how "helping", "cleaning up", or that fashionable word du jour "rebuilding" is being done - all theft with no benefit to anyone except the war profiteers. Call it what you want - it's theft, pure and simple. Truly illuminating.
     
  18. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #18
    Right now I don't think that there is a right choice, the time for making the right choice came and went when we first invaded, now no matter what we do it will continue to get worse, but I of all of the bad choices out there, leaving now is the least bad, since less of our troops will be killed for no reason.
     
  19. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Location:
    New York, NY
    #19
    Well then we should stop the theft and start actual re-building. It really isnt that hard to build wells, roads, bridges. Like seriously.... talk about woefully bad mismanagement. If we cant help at all in Iraq, then I think this is our last escipade as a world power.
     
  20. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Location:
    compost heap
    #20
    Under the present structures not to mention this administration, it is not possible to "actually start rebuilding". Theft and corruption is deeply institutionalized (again, see the documentary I linked to in the other thread) and not fixable without pretty much a wholesale political revolution in this country. You may as well wish for a magic wand to make everything right. Ain't happening.

    As to our no longer being a world power - it's like the samurai film image. The sword slices through the neck so fast, that the guy still looks just as he had before - until the moment, when the head slides off and rolls on the ground. GWB has just decapitated the empire. It may look quite the same from the outside for some time yet. Only as an empire - it is dead. With time, we'll slide down the rankings as an economic and military power - it is now happening. By the time the head is rolling around in the gutter, even the average redneck will feel something is not quite right. Until then, party on, just don't make any sudden movements, so as not to accelerate the head sliding (i.e. any more such "adventures" will merely speed up the process). The end result will be a mediocre country under a mountain of debt, and the world will yawn. A few historians will point to GWB's portrait and shake their heads, as they do these days with Nero and Rome. But the kids, nah, they won't pay attention - they rarely find history books inspiring :)
     
  21. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2002
    Location:
    Denver
    #21
    Staying will not help. All it will do is make certain people richer. Not you or me, BTW. It will kill more Americans and Iraqis, it will cost tens of billions of more dollars and it will further drag America into the sewer.

    We should leave. Yes, we ****ed up Iraq. There is nothing we can do now that will fix that. Our continued presence is only making things worse.

    For my own analogy, I'd like to put forth the boy who burned down the house of the bully at school and ended up killing not only the bully, but his family as well and of course, destroying the house.

    The boy can't rebuild the house. He can't bring the family back to life. He just wanted to stop the bully but he played with fire. He will always have those deaths on his conscience and will never be able to forget them. He can't fix what he's done. He can only serve his time and try to live better, more honestly and less violently in the future.

    How will the US serve it's time? By being an international pariah. We won't pay reparations, we won't rebuild the country. We'll simply be that country at the end of the block that killed somebody. And it'll suck. And maybe one day, far in the future, if we don't blame anyone else or try to weasel out of our guilt, we may become a credible world-stage player again. Instead of just the new bully.
     
  22. FFTT macrumors 68030

    FFTT

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Location:
    A Stoned Throw From Ground Zero
    #22
    At this point, I think the only way we could hope to stop the fighting over there, would be to send them Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz in return for a complete cease fire.

    Face it folks, any chance we had to gain their trust was destroyed when all the jobs they needed so badly went to Halliburton and other corrupt entities and Abu Ghraib justifiably enraged them.

    All that twisted political spin about bringing freedom and democracy to
    the Iraqi people.

    With friends like these, who needs enemies?
     
  23. macmama macrumors regular

    macmama

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Location:
    New Jersey
    #23
    So it appears that at least one right-wing columnist is taking the stance that withdrawing will be bad for Americans because it will mean "we lost". And that "We must win. The only thing worse than a long war is a lost war."

    But we would do well to slog this war through. The consequences of defeat are too great for anyone who loves America -- Republican, Democrat, or Independent -- to allow that to happen. The troops in Iraq are not fighting for the ungrateful Iraqis as claimed by the demoralizers. They are fighting for America. They are fighting to avoid the worst-case scenario: defeat and its disastrous aftermath.


    :rolleyes:
     
  24. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #24
    Toward the end of the Vietnam war, a reported asked Admiral Zumwalt, head of the Joint Chiefs, "Why can't we win this war"? His response was, "What should we do, bomb Saigon"?

    The point was, the war existed in every Vietnamese citizen. It was part of them. They had known it their whole life. It started with the Siamese, then the Mongols, then the Chinese, then the French, then the Japanese, then the French again, and finally the Americans. It was on their homeland, in the air they breathed, and every acre was stained with their blood.

    Vietnam and Iraq do not share a common history. However, they do have important things in common. They are ancient cultures. Their histories go back so far that America is just a recent 'flash in the pan' to them. Americans look at them as backward. They see us as children.

    I was leading a one-man crusade (locally) not to invade Iraq. I take zero pleasure in being able to say, "I told you so". There was no 'genius' required to see this catastrophe coming. There were no special hidden clues, which only the clever could see. This was as obvious as a 'fart in a space suit'. But, the sell job was in-place and America bought it.

    This 'war' was over when Bagdad raised the white flag. It was at that moment, the Iraqi people had a chance to decide their fate. If they indeed wanted Hussein, and his party, out of power, they could have taken the matter into their 'majority' hands. Yet, they did not. That should have sent out a loud, clear message; we do not have this figured out right. We did not then, and we do not now.

    It is unlikely we will figure it out until historians review the aftermath of what went wrong. But, we have a much higher responsibility today. We cannot breath life back into those we have lost forever. We will spend a couple generations repairing the mental anguish that has, or will be returning back to the world our young men left (but will never find again). Each day that passes, the casualties mount. They are not statistics. Imagine the person who means the most to you in life, suddenly dying. Every war casualty is effecting someone exactly that way.

    We cannot escape this fast enough! Write your congressional delegation. Do what you can. I informed my employer I was going to half-time in January. I am going to work in Iraq veteran outreach. Those poor young men are going to need a lot of empathetic friends to help them re-enter their lives again.
     
  25. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #25
    I think Safari just seizured when I hit that site. Ann Coulter...hmmm..I wonder if that was paid for in a barter arrangement? You know..services rendered.
     

Share This Page