Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by ender land, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    I am not sure how I feel about this law. I would feel a lot better if the government had not used as their reasoning
    but rather something like "this prevents us from identifying people by face" or something like that, instead of something which says to me, "we decided face veils are not tolerable, cuz, well, we did."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13031397
     
  2. torbjoern macrumors 65816

    torbjoern

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    #2
    France is the _second_ country in Europe to ban such garments. First out was Turkey in 1997.
     
  3. Rt&Dzine, Apr 11, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011

    Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #3
    The law seems discriminatory against women. What about ski masks or someone like Michael Jackson (when he was alive) and his black kerchief or when he covered his children's faces?

    EDIT: I just noticed the exceptions to the ban. The law definitely has an agenda.
     
  4. CalBoy macrumors 604

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    #4
    This is exactly how you lose the legitimacy to critique another culture.

    Now personally I really find the veils to be a misogynistic and horrid piece of culture and it's right for every rational person to openly criticize them. However, this is not something that can be legislated away. That only leads to ingrained resistance and distrust from minority groups.

    I can see how the veils might be a problem when identification and security are involved, but these women were protesting. The French should be ashamed of themselves.
     
  5. torbjoern macrumors 65816

    torbjoern

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    #5
    That would be illegal with the new law as well. AFAIK, it's now illegal in France to wear garments that conceal one's face in public - not only for women but for men too. Since it applies to women and men equally, it's not discriminatory.
     
  6. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #6
    He could have argued it was for health reasons (one of the exceptions). Ski masks are allowed (sporting activities are exceptions also).
     
  7. Heilage macrumors 68030

    Heilage

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    #7
    This is an interesting ban. I don't personally like those veils, as they represent a cultural institutionalized form of discrimination and control over women (granted, it seems that some women wear them voluntarily for reasons unknown to me). However, nothing ever gets better if you start alienating these cultures this way.

    I do see their point. If a man walked around with something that covered everything but their eyes, people would be suspicious.

    EDIT: CalBoy said it better than me.
     
  8. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #8
    I like this law. We should bring it over here to the US

    And that's a predominantly muslim country so go figure. Is it wrong for them to ban it too or is it just wrong for france because they're not predominantly muslim?
     
  9. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #9
    I don't think facial covering for religious reasons should affect the legality either way. How much of the face would need to be covered to be illegal? What about sporting a beard and wearing sunglasses at the same time?
     
  10. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #10
    I like the part of the law that gives fines, and I think jail time to anyone forcing a woman to wear one, but if someone actually wants to wear a veil they should be allowed to do it.
     
  11. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #11
    This would never get beyond the First Amendment, even with justices as conservative as Scalia. And rightly so. Clothing is a very basic way to express speech and exercise a religion.


    Turkey passed it's law with a lot more due process and equal protection relative to France. The people who are most affected by this law have a lot less voting power than those whose racist and xenophobic ideology carried this travesty forward.

    There is also a big difference between one nation trying to overcome it's history with misogyny and another trying to harshly impose a set of values on certain citizens.

    The only part of the law that has any worth is the provision that overbearing men can be held accountable. Even that wreaks of paternalism, but at least it's a first attempt at addressing the root problem rather than just an opening salvo in a new culture war.
     
  12. MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #12
    i cant see the problem , it is just common sense if you move in another country that you conform with their customs if you want to live there , if you cant conform with that then just stay at home , even applies to.. tourists .
    or whatever the nature of your visit in a another country might be
    and if common sense is missing then there have to be laws

    ok i know some tourists behave like a missing link in evolution without common sense
     
  13. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

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    #13
    I really dislike this view. If you move to a country you should conform to their laws but not necessarily to the culture. Tourists should experience our culture (that's half the reason I love going on holiday) but it shouldn't be forced!

    I don't like the idea of Islamic women wearing a veil, but it shouldn't be banned totally. Maybe restricted for security reasons (eg in airports) and maybe in schools so children can interact with their teacher better but not banned in public full stop. I do like the French law that says anyone who forces someone else to cover themselves should be prosecuted.

    I don't mind if people move to the UK and don't learn English or live in a different way to me. It can be great to have other cultures around- just look at what it has done to English food (no longer meat + 2 veg like 50 years ago).

    All I ask is that people contribute to UK society, they don't have to contribute to my specific culture.
     
  14. TuffLuffJimmy macrumors G3

    TuffLuffJimmy

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    #14
    What an incredibly misguided law. I can't believe a western country in the 21st century could not only have such a law, but instantiate and enforce!
     
  15. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #15
    not true: belgium AFAIk already has such a law since last year and also the spanish senat approved such legislation to banning burkha

    and there is also the so called "Vermummungsverbot" in Germany, Austria, Italy ans parts of Switzerland which bans the use of ski mask, faceveils, helmets etc. during demonstrations/protests to prevent police persecution if criminal acts are performed
    those bans would for example include wearing a burkha during demonstration

    and it needs to be noted that this is hardly the first law regarding "what to wear": to see how free you are in your country just go on the streets not wearing anything ;)
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

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  17. steviem macrumors 68020

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    #17
    The use of the balaclava in sectarian violence has contributed a lot to this mistrust of covering your face.

    My fiancée is protestant, went to a Catholic High School and now teaches in both a Catholic High School and an Islamic k-12 school. When she works in the Islamic school, she wears a scarf covering her head, not out of pressure but for respect for their culture. She also lets her students know that she is Christian, but wants to show them that you should respect other people's culture. Compared with one of her colleagues who brings in Bacon sandwiches and doesn't really care, I think it's a nice outlook to have.

    The thing with a beard is that whilst it hides some features, it doesn't hide other features such as your face shape, nose, brow and forehead. I don't like talking in person to people in sunglasses or with their face obstructed, maybe this is a western habit bred into me, but I just don't feel as much trust for the person as I would if I could see their face and eyes.

    I don't really like the law being enforced, it should be a choice, but by the same token, it should perhaps be more like the rules in petrol stations and banks with crash helmets, you need to take them off before being served. I don't know what would be right though.
     
  18. MacHamster68, Apr 12, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #18
    hm i dislike that view so you think its alright too if a women from the UK is visiting Iran and walks around wearing a mini skirt :confused:

    and as i am a "immigrant" as i am German ,but i speak english as i live in the UK , not because i would be forced to , but it makes communicating with the English Scots and Welch easier and for me thats common sense , ok i speak a little french , spanish , italien too , just because i sometimes go in these countries for holiday , and as i have traveled when i was younger around the whole Mediterranean sea i speak some arab too ,as its widely understood in islamic countries , ok none of those to a high degree , but still enough to communicate and i did not learn to speak those languages because i would have been forced to , but it makes life easier if i speak the language of the country i am visiting ,i get easier in contact with the people and their culture too , and for me that's the prime reason to visit another country , and i respect their culture and would not wear shorts and t-shirt in counties where its not custom to do so , even i come from a country where its normal to wear shorts and t-shirt
    for example of customs or cultures in europe , we have a lot of nudist beaches in Germany , but i would not walk on Dover beach naked and argue i am allowed to because i am German and its part of my culture , but i could for example go shopping wearing absolutely no cloth at all in the city of Le Cap d'Agde in France as there the whole town is is an entirely clothing-optional city (population 40,000)

    and if people dont use common sense then you need laws to enforce things that are not acceptable in certain countries , just because they are acceptable in others does not make it right
     
  19. iBlue macrumors Core

    iBlue

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    #19
    There's a very small part of me that kind of has to hand it to France for having the nerve to place this ban. It is a terribly misogynistic and divisive garment and I disagree with it completely. I think France merely outlawed it with the wrong reasons in mind... at least on paper. It should be to do with banning the hiding of identity rather than it being specifically a burka and niqab.

    I live in a very diverse neighbourhood and I frequently see women in various head scarves. The burka and niqab seem quite antisocial and I find it hypocritical that totally covering one's face like that is accepted but if I walked into these same places with a motorcycle helmet, a balaclava, a mask, etc. I'd be asked to take it off, leave or some other such demonstration of being unwelcome/distrusted. If I said it was part of my religion, would it be accepted?

    I find many Islamic beliefs particularly frustrating because many of the beliefs and or believers are SO inflexible but often expect total flexibility for themselves. I'm fed up with religious beliefs being unchallenged and so quickly accepted simply for being religious. Now in general letting people believe what they want is great policy but I think it can go too far. E.g., cases of women wanting to wear burkas and niqabs in identification photos. Come on! :-/ If I go to Dubai on holiday and bring a codeine painkiller that you can buy over the counter here, I could go to jail. Or if my husband gives me a little kiss in public, jail. Yet, hey, come to the UK and do whatever the hell you please and even try to change our laws or litigate if you don't get your way. On one hand the UK's openness is wonderful but the other hand is being walked all over.

    Someone somewhere has to draw a line, but carefully. I don't want to see beliefs outlawed but I am not so against certain practices being outlawed. There are a lot of really horrible religious practices taking place right under our noses and I'm not accepting it simply because it's someone's cherished religious belief.
    Read up on "African witch children" for some really disturbing material, just so I'm not accused of picking solely on Muslims. I'll pretty much pick on any religion you put in front of me.


    I don't know how or when it will happen but I long for a day when people themselves outgrow religion. Not governments banning it, but people learning their way past it. I know this idea may be upsetting to some but it will happen eventually and the stubborn clingers on will only look crazy. Sorry to say that many already do.
     
  20. MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #20
    i guess you are right, in Germany we have for example a law to prevent demonstrators from covering their face , for my passport picture i was even asked to take off my glasses because of light ,really light reflections
    i am a Biker , i have a a flip up helmet
    but even opening it complete i was asked to take it off at a lot of filling stations , despite everybody could see my complete face ,while women with a full veil or burka is not asked to take it off when entering a petrol station
     
  21. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #21
    I think it would be a very good idea not to do that- surely that is illegal in Iran?!

    There are many aspects of other cultures that I think are great. There are some I don't like (Islamic veils, head scarves fine), but I don't think they should be banned. The point is, I have no desire to keep some kind of strict "English culture", I welcome having a diverse range of people.

    I agree it is common sense to be able to speak the language of the country you are in. Even when going away to a country where most people speak English as a 2nd language I learn the basics of the native one. However, it shouldn't be required. If you decided not to learn English I wouldn't be angry you living here without knowing it. (Just don't expect anything more than a confused face if you spoke German to me!)

    Here law overlaps with culture. It isn't really in English culture to walk around naked (just like it isn't to wear veils) and it is against the law. Laws of the country you are in should be obeyed.

    The law is there to say that is legal and what isn't. It shouldn't be equated to what is right and wrong. I would prefer it if Islamic women wore headscarves not veils, but I don't think it should be forced (except in some circumstances I mentioned earlier- like security checks). The law will adapt, but we must be careful not to use it as a way of preserving a whole culture and resisting change.

    This is a very difficult issue, and hard to draw a strict line. Laws, moral values and culture are linked, but are not the same. For example, I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses should be able to deny blood transfusions to their children (there is no factual grounds for this). This may be part of their culture, but I consider it an act of omission causing harm to another.
     
  22. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

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    #22
    Please, they are on the ski slopes.

    You walk into a bank, wearing a balaclava, you should be shot, for being stupid.
     
  23. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #23
    I see your point. Like the burqa, a nun's gown covers her face. And like Muslim women, nuns are often forced to wear their robes because they are forced to by their husband with rape and/or beating as possible punishment for non-compliance.

    Solid analogy.
     
  24. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #24
    [​IMG]

    We all know about the enforcement side of the burka, but we have yet to dissect the reason for same, as considered by the founders of the religion.

    I have a few.

    1) Stops 'grass is greener' by your neighbour

    2) Stops laughing at his 'Cracker Jack' surprise.

    3) Makes sure that no womb goes unused, in the service of Allah.

    Any others come to mind?

    I will let the women at MR discuss this from the female side.
     
  25. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #25
    Are you talking about nuns, like in a convent? :confused: I thought they lived a life of chastity, and considered themselves married to God. I'm pretty sure God doesn't beat them or rape them, or otherwise punish them for non-compliance.

    On a side note, can we impose a mandetory bikini rule anytime the temperature permits? Probably not; the list of exceptions would be huge, no pun intended.
     

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