Woz defends Tiger-releasing student.


yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
1
Portland, OR
Aren't you required to sign a non-disclosure agreement before getting a pre-release dev copy? In which case, 'Sunny' violated that, and no one expected Apple to do anything? Doy.
 

mixylplik3

macrumors member
Apr 29, 2004
34
0
Boston
With all due respect to Woz, who cares? Why does he need to get involved? I can only speak for myself, but who cares what he thinks. That's my 2c.
 

nagromme

macrumors G5
May 2, 2002
12,551
1,186
The article's very brief, but it sound's like Woz's issue may be whether the leak was INTENTIONAL. That could matter to a court assigning penalties, too.

I'm sure most people letting an NDA product out do so on purpose. But I suppose it's possible to negligently let someone else have access to your data, for instance, leaking something you didn't MEAN to let out.

IF (big if) something like that is the case, then I do think there would be better targets for Apple to choose than this student. He may still have violated the NDA, and accidental leakse ARE a problem--but he's not the group that's the main threat to Apple's trade secrets.

Of course, Apple wouldn't know the circumstances of the leak (intentional/accidental) when first going after the guy. If his violation was unintentional, his story may have to be told in court to convince people of that.
 

Mitthrawnuruodo

Moderator emeritus
Mar 10, 2004
13,595
142
Bergen, Norway
The Register has also picked up this one...

And I have to agree with Woz, kind of, give the lad a slap on the wrist (this time!), don't chase him around the courtroom with a pack of lawyers... spare that for the real criminals out there...
 

applekid

macrumors 68020
Jul 3, 2003
2,098
0
Make sure to check out the actual interview: http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/000369.html

So, Woz is saying the leak was unintentional and donating. Fair enough. If you read the interview, you can get a better sense of who these people being sued are. As I suspected, some are actually sounding like they didn't know, or at least that's Sunny's case.

Sunny sounds like he didn't know what he was doing. Hey, it's not like anybody wasn't ever offered a copy of software from a friend or acquaintance before and accept without knowing it's piracy. We've all been down that road. The right thing to do is reject the offer, but of course there's still some unknowingly or knowingly accept the offer. Since that kind of piracy isn't trouble on a large scale, I think we can settle on it being a lighter shade of gray, and that's the same situation Sunny was in.

Sunny, if you're story is true, just hang in there and let this thing blow over. You just make sure not to make the same mistake twice. Don't hang out with the wrong crowd. Coming from a staunch proponent of taking out every single pirate in existence, that should mean something. I do believe in forgiving, as long as you straighten yourself out from now on. However, you should've read your NDA. I'm quite sure it's the first thing to pop even before downloading the image. Saying you didn't read an agreement usually doesn't hold up well in court though. For that, Apple is going to have to do something whether it's harsh or not.

But, assuming his story is true, I want to see the jerks that helped him get a torrent uploaded and working and the acquaintance that gave him a seed key sued. I'd like to see MTKA torn apart and brought down like Suprnova. I can only hope some of those 25 John Does happen to be the guys that really made this worse. Apple should make an example of the bigger fish, like Nesscence.

Nesscence and the rest of what I consider hardcore pirate guys really deserve the punishment. Read the interview. Apparently we've caught a few MTKA bastards. Good. Lock 'em up and sue them every penny they have. It serves them right. I like how he's even trying to get some pity by saying "What did not occur to me was that it would be so aggressive and occur during the holidays - a time when most are spending time with their families." What a 'tard. Glad you're getting the book slapped in your face, jerk. You're running the tracker, so you're responsible for taking files on and off. Don't act like you did nothing wrong. I do like how he planned out every single bit of his defense. He hides his real intentions with some BS ones. For example, making it invitation-only to give it "social appeal." Look, you made a haven for pirates and want to protect it. Once we get some stats on the legal to illegal file ratio things will be quite clear. I bet there's tons of things said in their forum that will point Apple in the right direction in nabbing the rest.

I hope other companies will join Apple in suing the rest of the scumbags.

Let's have a discussion. We're sorta beating a dead horse, but we've got more light on the story now.
 

Timelessblur

macrumors 65816
Jun 26, 2004
1,086
0
I always find it intersting how people will jump on some one who give out software that not fullly legal. It a safe assumtptoin that on almost everyone of there computers they have pirated software. I still get kicks out of some people who jump on this guy for give out tiger and yet they where among the people who downloaded it.

If there is one thing in this world that i hate it is hypocrits and most people who are complain about sonny and sya way to go apple are Hypocrits. You all better no have a single stolen thing on your computer always gotten all of your stuff legitly.
 

blackfox

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2003
1,208
4,029
PDX
After reading the interview with sunny, and several of the contributing opinions, I look at it like this:

legally, ignorance is not a valid defense for commiting a crime. Sunny did commit a crime by breaking the NDA. The fact that he was ignorant and confused about the whole thing and didn't read the NDA agreement, does not excuse him from accountability.

That said, I sympathize with his plight, and I feel, so should Apple. As was pointed out in various opinions, the damage done to Apple was minor - the software was already released to the public (at least to developers), so Apple did not lose any IP rights or incur any other serious breaches of their technology which could point to demonstrable revenue-loss.

As was said, his crime is more akin to shoplifting. It is a crime, but not necessarily a serious one. I feel Apple is taking the wrong tact pursuing this guy so vigorously - the point has been made, to him and to all, now let everyone get on with their lives. Propose a reasonable settlement or even drop the case altogether.

The cost to Apple to pursue this, considering (a) the unliklihood of recovering sufficient compensation from a kid with little-to-no assets, and (b) the poor publicity and subsequent PR outlay, seems high to the point of impractical and foolish.

Just an opinion. Oh, btw I gathered that sunny was a member here @MR. If you are reading, good luck mate.
 

MacConvert2008

macrumors newbie
Feb 15, 2005
29
0
University of Virginia
I think it's obvious that Apple is trying to make a point; and end which they arrived upon with much expediency. Apple has every right to enforce their rules and related laws. However, to chastise this individual with this severity and publicity is; as was stated previously; a public relations nightmare. Apple is punishing one for the sins of the many. To an extent, Apple invites piracy. Let me qualify that. In the software realm, they are quite comparable to their PC competition; the Tiger upgrade preorder costs $130 (U.S.) from Amazon.com. We all know what torrent sites are for, and they are certainly even more prevalent within the realm of PC software. In general, however, (as I step onto my soapbox), Apple and its contemporaries should consider their marketing strategy. As they fight the constant battle against music sharing, with application sharing on the rise, charging $1.00 for a song is ludacris. Excuse the digression, but the idea that one should spend $5,000 to fill up a $300 iPod with music is not only unfair, it's asinine. When I purchased my Powerbook a few weeks ago (which I am absolutely enamored with :)) I needed to obtain OfficeMac for school work. Even with a significant student discount, it was $149. The only programs I plan on using are Word and Powerpoint. I know that these are Microshit applications, but nonetheless Apple had a hand in it, and uniquely Macintosh software costs about the same. I'm drowning in student debt (and this is only my first year!) and I'm supposed to spend $149 on software that all of my friends are getting for free? Much to Apple's dismay, their behavior toward this individual has not scared anyone away from software piracy; rather it has alerted the public at large that they should get on Bittorrent and obtain the newest OS X. :p
 

applekid

macrumors 68020
Jul 3, 2003
2,098
0
MacConvert2008 said:
In general, however, (as I step onto my soapbox), Apple and its contemporaries should consider their marketing strategy. As they fight the constant battle against music sharing, with application sharing on the rise, charging $1.00 for a song is ludacris. Excuse the digression, but the idea that one should spend $5,000 to fill up a $300 iPod with music is not only unfair, it's asinine. When I purchased my Powerbook a few weeks ago (which I am absolutely enamored with :)) I needed to obtain OfficeMac for school work. Even with a significant student discount, it was $149. The only programs I plan on using are Word and Powerpoint. I know that these are Microshit applications, but nonetheless Apple had a hand in it, and uniquely Macintosh software costs about the same. I'm drowning in student debt (and this is only my first year!) and I'm supposed to spend $149 on software that all of my friends are getting for free? Much to Apple's dismay, their behavior toward this individual has not scared anyone away from software piracy; rather it has alerted the public at large that they should get on Bittorrent and obtain the newest OS X. :p
So, what you're basically saying is spending money is ridiculous, however, if you don't have money, obtaining things by illegal means is justified because of peer pressure? There's no free lunch in nature. But, wait, you're also blaming the marketing for making take these actions? No brain in that noggin'?

There's plenty, and I mean plenty of other options than Apple for your music and MS Office. I especially find it hard to believe when someone complains software is expensive when it is drastically discounted for students. And I find it even harder to believe when a student is complaining about software that pretty much every college and university I know about gives/lends this software to their students! And you even have this software in the frickin' computer labs. And top of it all, who made the financial decision of buying a PowerBook and having no cash left over? Oh no, pirating is the only option left... Boohoo. There's people in worse conditions with a computer and still choose not to pirate the software they seek.

Apple, or its marketing, aren't the ones making people make ridiculous actions. You yourself are to blame.

Timelessblur said:
If there is one thing in this world that i hate it is hypocrits and most people who are complain about sonny and sya way to go apple are Hypocrits. You all better no have a single stolen thing on your computer always gotten all of your stuff legitly.
I don't know about you, but I believe in people going straight and can forgive them. Hell, I once was a pirate. I was still pirating even when MTKA was around. I stopped before this whole invitation system with MTKA, so that's about two or three years ago. I think I started pirating when I was 10, so that's probably about a good 3 or 4 years of pirating.

You probably want to know why I pirated in the first place, right? Well, my parents aren't ones to give me much of an allowance, and I usually had to beg for my games or use gift money. So, pirating gave me my goods for free.

I kept telling myself it was wrong, but I went ahead and pirated anyway. I knew it was wrong even with that first game I pirated. It gets to a point where it's an addiction. You start having withdrawals and... ;) Just kidding. But, it gets to a point where you just won't stop. I can only compare it to a drug addiction because you know it's not good for you, but you do it anyway. I came to a point where I was bored with what I downloaded (almost completely games), and there wasn't that thrill anymore. My biggest reason for quitting was I started feeling bad as a programmer in-training that pirating is taking away money from my fellow software developer. The other reason I quit was there was something about buying something with your money and having the satisfaction of ownership you can't get through pirating. It never felt so good. You feel guilt and shame once these things hit you.

I bought the few games that I did like. I broke all of my burnt CDs, erased No-CD cracks and remaining disk images, etc. Some of you probably wondered just how knowledgeable I was on this piracy stuff. Well now you know :) I had a similar admittance on iDevGames.com years ago. It's a good thing to get off your chest. And something worth bringing up once in a while. It's a little hard to talk about though. Because I know there's probably people that will look at me suspiciously now. But, that's alright. It's expected.

I suppose you can call me a hypocrite for supporting Apple whenever they bring out their big guns when it comes to legal actions, considering when I myself was a pirate. So, sure, I'm guilty as charged, I suppose. However, instead of staying silent or acting like I never did anything wrong, I prefer to hope to change some other pirates views and actions. Will it work? Probably not. But, if I can get one pirate straight, then at least that's one last bootlegger to worry about. Hey, if you still want to give me the evil eye for pirating in the first place and keep accusing most of the people here have pirated as being hypocrites, go ahead. But, I prefer to forgive the ones that because they can help out instead of hurt the community.

Sure, what Sunny did was wrong. However, I don't what to see him torn into pieces for his wrong doing. He isn't the pirates I'm after. Hell, I rather like to think he's not even a pirate. It's almost inevitable what he did is going to get him some sort of punishment. I do think if he gets any punishment at all, it should be light. Heck, I'm hoping he'll get lucky and owe only an apology to Apple as his punishment.

However, the remaining two accused that have been identified don't deserve an ounce of leniency. From reading the interview, the MTKA admins are still up to their old tricks. Dodging, dancing, and prancing around hard questions. It's hard to prove because they're only implying things, but I remember them slipping up with some forum posts. I can only hope Apple digs the stuff up. I remember an admin ranting on and on about how he spent money on tons of things, but still needs to bootleg some things for reasons I didn't care to remember.

But, something much clearer I remember is this: We had an incident with a particular game an iDevGames developer made, and someone noted of how the serial key was released. (The guy this pointed it out was an ex-pirate we tried to straighten out previously. We thought we were successful. But I find it suspicious he was hanging out on the particular pirate forum...) Anyhow, the developer quickly patched it up. Some people went to that forum and yelled at the pirates. Then the pirates defended themselves by saying something along the lines, "Oh, hey, you are a talented programmer. You keep making good games and we will buy them." The thing settled for a week. We checked again to find out a new key was posted after the patch. These are the pirates that really annoy me. They like to kiss ass and act like they never did wrong and claim they have good intentions. I have little hope for those pirates that just make excuses in their imagination like that one. Somehow they find it in themselves to admit they still are pirating though. They lack that shame I found.

So, yeah, the proof is out there, and these pirates are being clever and tricky. Some punishment might put some sense back into them because that's the only choice left since they're not turning away voluntarily and not to mention won't even admit to their wrongdoings when they've been caught red-handed.

Sunny, if you are reading, you've got more balls than all the pirates in the world. I'd donate to your fund if I wasn't a poor student myself :)

Looks like I'm asking for a flame-war with yet another thread, so flame on :) I hope that all made sense. I'm getting tired typing all of that stuff! :eek:
 

angelneo

macrumors 68000
Jun 13, 2004
1,537
0
afk
I am quite cynical about this as all we can actually depends on is an account from "Sunny". I feel his relation of the events that transpired should be taken with a grain of salt since he is the actual defendant himself. I am still quite neutral about this.
 

LimitedEdition

macrumors member
Jan 14, 2005
60
0
This guy "Sunny" is a software pirate, and it appears he is also a liar.

C'mon man, the interview is totally unbelivable. He got the seed key from a stranger on the Internet and though it would be ok to Torrent Mac OS X, a commercial program? No way.

Don't be sucked in Woz. You may think you are standing up for the little guy in the face of the big corporation, but size is not the fundamental issue. Fundamentally, you are standing with the thief against the creator he has stolen from. Are you sure you're on the right side here?
 

MacConvert2008

macrumors newbie
Feb 15, 2005
29
0
University of Virginia
re:applekid

Applekid:

You make a good point, but I don't think you really understood what I was saying. Yes, I have the money. And yes, I bought the software. For the record, my University doesn't loan anyone software, and the computers in the lab have a 20-minute limit, which is down to 15 because it's exam week. Anyway, I definitely understand your position, and I tend to talk in absolutes, but you can certainly see why people pirate software. If OfficeMac were the only program I needed, I shouldn't complain. But I found out that I need Studio MX and Photoshop and we know what those cost. I'm sure this has been suggested lots, but why don't they just make software harder to hack? Some of these programs require basically no computer knowledge whatsoever to distribute. You can take an MS Office disk to 20 computers and it will install 20 times if you don't register it with Microsoft. The reason people get mad at pirates is that it sucks when you're paying for something someone else is getting for free. It isn't fair, but it's the way of things. That's how I feel, anyway, and I'm sure some of you share my sentiment. Look to the source. It's not me, as you asserted, or perhaps even Apple, as I implied (although in the case of OS X Tiger it is), but the software makers themselves. I know that hackers are always a step ahead, but most "pirates" just burn one disc to another, make/distribute ISO's or DMG's, or install on multiple systems. Even if the handful of hardcore hackers kept up with increased security measures, the majority of lay consumers would get sick of ever-more-complicated processes and might bite the bullet and buy it. In truth I'm not mad about the software prices, but rather that it's so easy for everyone around me to steal it. 10 years ago, if someone wanted to steal software they needed balls enough to walk into a store and walk out with it. At this point, there is little or no risk involved. It's a personal choice, and when I look at MS Office, I guess I take it for granted. It's always been there, and it never really changes. For that $149 I could go buy an Xbox. Instead, I bought a mostly-empty box with a crappy cd-sleeve and a big sticker saying "Do Not Distribute." Doing the right thing sucks, but I'm far more inclined to go by the book with software than music. ITunes should take a lesson from napster with the unlimited downloads thang. Anyway, I hope that helped clear things up. Peace.
 

MacConvert2008

macrumors newbie
Feb 15, 2005
29
0
University of Virginia
LimitedEdition said:
This guy "Sunny" is a software pirate, and it appears he is also a liar.

C'mon man, the interview is totally unbelivable. He got the seed key from a stranger on the Internet and though it would be ok to Torrent Mac OS X, a commercial program? No way.

Don't be sucked in Woz. You may think you are standing up for the little guy in the face of the big corporation, but size is not the fundamental issue. Fundamentally, you are standing with the thief against the creator he has stolen from. Are you sure you're on the right side here?
I totally agree, we all know how it went down. We shouldn't even pretend that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong. But this gives rise to discourse of the issue as a whole, which is certainly something worth discussing.
 

angelneo

macrumors 68000
Jun 13, 2004
1,537
0
afk
Actually the interview does ring a few alarms for me, as "sunny" serves up quite a few "choice" words that tries to get the readers' sympathy votes. I am not sure if it has been re-work by the editor for sensational reasons but the interview sounds surreal. I would like to give "sunny" the benefit of doubt as there's a tendacy for people to vote for the underdog, the little people who fought so hard against the mightly big corporations. If "Sunny" is a member of this forum, perhaps he can clarify a few things here?
 

adamjay

macrumors 6502a
Feb 3, 2004
646
0
Indianapolis
i think the main thing woz is trying to say is there are far bigger fish to fry that are negatively effecting Apple than Sunny is.

its the old "why are you pulling me over officer, aren't there some murderers you could be chasing after instead" routine. but you still shouldn't do 65mph in the 40mph zone :rolleyes:
the law is the law.
 

Koodauw

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2003
3,936
165
Madison
It makes complete sense. Steve was always in it for the money, Woz did it because it was what he loved to do. I think Apple lost alot of its heart when Woz left.
 

Timelessblur

macrumors 65816
Jun 26, 2004
1,086
0
Can some one explain how what apple doing is any diffent that the scumming thing the RIAA and the MIAA is forcing on people.

Far as I can tell apple playing the I am huge and you are small. I will crush you because I can.

If you thow any stones on this you computer better be 100% free of all pirated and stolen stuff other wise well everything you say about how way to go apple is meanning less because the 2nd that a compiany turns on you for you stealing their stuff you going to start complaining and yet you support it being done to others.

Basicly Way to go as long as I am not the target.
 

applekid

macrumors 68020
Jul 3, 2003
2,098
0
First off, to the skeptics about Sunny:

It crossed my mind. Maybe Sunny is trying to get sympathy. I thought to myself getting a seed-key through a stranger was iffy, too. It would help him and probably the rest of us if he showed us where and how he got the help for placing the torrent on MTKA. There's definitely a smattering of bogus to it. The story doesn't hold together completely.

I think I'm giving the mate the benefit of the doubt here though. I'll stick by that for now, but cautiously. Saying he's got balls may be overstating a bit, but I'll stick by it for now. Maybe things will unfold with this article.

If he gets ass-rammed, I won't have too much sympathy because the back of my mind is saying he's gotta be bluffing. Maybe I'm in too much of a forgiving mood. :p

But, I'm more psyched about the iPod Mini update ;)

Now to my mate MacConvert2008. Hey, first off, no hard feelings. I may have come off a bit harsh. But, we're having an intelligent discussion so I just must reply :D But I will reply tomorrow... I have to sleep. :eek:

Maybe someone like Duff_Man will speak on my behalf on this one. That guy helped me out when that twit asked what would happen if he installed Tiger. Stirred up a bit here at MR. Good thing, too. Anyways, g'nite.
 

Keynoteuser

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2003
149
0
Columbus, Ohio area
hmmm

I think Sunny is lying about some things. He probably didn't think it would get out of hand, but I think the whole seed thing is bad bad bad. Who gives out their ADC keys to just anyone off the net? Either he's lying, or the guy who GAVE it to him is a complete moron.

And as far as MTKA is concerned. That guy is not even a GOOD liar. I've been told every single one of my products is on MTKA. The friends I know who have access to that site rave about all the free stuff they get off it.

I think Apple should smack Sunny around a bit, but I think someone finally needs to take MTKA down for good.
 

jsw

Moderator emeritus
Mar 16, 2004
22,819
41
Andover, MA
I completely agree that MTKA should die. It serves no valid purpose, period.

However, as far as Sunny is concerned, I think the possible punishment far exceeds the harm inflicted. Anyone - anyone - can get legal access to Tiger betas for $500. I have it. I paid, and I got five keys. I could see someone who only needed one key deciding that it wasn't so bad to hand out one of the spare ones - not technically legal, but I know it happens, and it's hard to pursue legally. I wouldn't hand one out to a stranger, but I might have if I were younger.

In any event, thousands and thousands of people have legal access to the Tiger betas, and anyone who could even remotely be considered a threat to Apple (i.e., MS) has, I'm sure, legal Tiger beta copies.

So, regardless of Apple's legal notices, it seems extraordinarily heavy-handed to argue that the release of a Tiger beta in any way - any way - harms the company. I have no idea why Apple's being such a pain about this stuff. I understand how a leak about, say, the Mac mini could cause problems. But Tiger is out there, everywhere, and Apple has sent it to any registered, paying developer. I got two copies in the mail today - two builds that were apparently and for some odd reason sent at the same time.

So how can Apple claim any damages? Sorry, but I cannot side with them on this one. It's bullying, clear and simple. If this were a release version of Tiger - or even close to a release version - I'd understand. But the versions which were described in the suit are not even vaguely good enough to be used as a default OS. They're cool to play with, but very buggy.
 

broken_keyboard

macrumors 65816
Apr 19, 2004
1,144
0
Secret Moon base
jsw said:
If this were a release version of Tiger - or even close to a release version - I'd understand.
The release version costs $129 and legal beta access costs $500 and you are saying you understand how a final release would be damaging but not a beta?
 

Santaduck

macrumors 6502a
Oct 21, 2003
627
0
Honolulu
Well it does seem Apple has turned a corner and is pursuing wrongdoers, even its own ardent fans, with increased litigational vigor.

I've read the above, but what I'd really like to hear more of is Woz & his justifications. I wonder if he's worried about the kid's overall 'harmlessness' or if Woz is really worried about Apple hurting its corporate image (in the eyes of most consumers) as the nice guy.

The drunkenblog URL was great...
I especially liked Jason Harris & Wilfried de Kerchove's comments.