You Can’t Beat Trump without Throwing a Punch

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Rogifan, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. Rogifan macrumors Core


    Nov 14, 2011
    This 100%

    Politico’s mid-day summary reflected this bottomless passivity among Democrats, reporting that the hearing “missed the mark for pro-impeachment Democrats … Those who wanted to begin impeachment proceedings needed bombshells from the former special counsel. Mueller gave them nothing besides affirmation about what was in his report, and a series of sidesteps when he did not want to answer questions.”

    In other words, pro-impeachment Democrats wanted Mueller to make the decision for them, to take responsibility for moving public opinion in their favored direction. This is not how impeachment works under the Constitution, and it is not how political conflict works anyway.

    Just as spectators of the political game, it should be obvious by now that this is the signature mistake that all of Trump’s opponents have made. A fear of direct
    confrontation with Trump and his base leads his opponents to hope that Trump can be defeated without hard fighting. Perhaps circumstances will change, or the media will finally pin him. Or maybe some other Trump opponent will pick the perfect kamikaze maneuver and reopen the political field.

    This is a vain hope. Like Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, and Hillary Clinton before them, House Democrats will lose any contest with Trump so long as they are unwilling to sustain political damage in the act of inflicting more damage to him.
  2. FrankieTDouglas macrumors 65816

    Mar 10, 2005
    How appropriate that an article about defeating Trump, cites the need to "throw a punch."
  3. vrDrew macrumors 65816

    Jan 31, 2010
    Midlife, Midwest
    What, exactly, would constitute "throwing a punch" in defeating Donald Trump?

    Trump, for all his loathsomeness, is but a symptom of the moral, intellectual, and emotional bankruptcy that permeates much of modern American society. He is the distilled essence of decades of self-involved ignorance, the product of too much reality tv and rampant Facebook onanism.

    Voting for Donald Trump was an act of deliberately uninformed self-harm.

    How are you gonna talk people out of that sort of behaviour?
  4. Zenithal macrumors G3

    Sep 10, 2009
    And here I was thinking this was an op-ed on Booker's fragile masculinity second to Trump's.
  5. roland.g macrumors 603


    Apr 11, 2005
    The moral bankruptcy etc that you quote permeates American society on both sides of the aisle and through the entirety of the political spectrum. Voting for Donald Trump was 2 things: a natural political swing back to the right after 8 progressive Obama years and a rejection of Clinton. It is arguable that any likeable Democrat could have beaten Trump, which would have bucked the 8 year political pendulum effect, and that Trumps victory was not deliberate harm as you suggest but rather a deliberate attempt to avoid Clinton.

    If history proves anything and it likely will, Trump will win in 2020 followed by 8 years of Democratic rule. Bush senior and Carter are the only two presidents in the last 43 years not to win as incumbents.
  6. Rogifan thread starter macrumors Core


    Nov 14, 2011
    For one thing if he did all the Dems say he did then impeach him already. S—t or get off the pot.
  7. LizKat macrumors 603


    Aug 5, 2004
    Catskill Mountains
    Show them the link for the Federal Register and tell them sit down and read through the rule changes for the last two and a half years? It won't be quite as thrilling as a noir beach read but all the same pretty startling and extremely educational.

    Or maybe Trump himself will talk people out of voting for him again. It's early days for the 2020 season, and some days with Trump are like a week in a theme park (of his tangential choosing). He's bound to create a few "teaching moments" between now and next spring.
  8. niji, Jul 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019

    niji Contributor


    Feb 9, 2003
    not impeaching rump simply is about trying to maintain some kind of theorized political advantage in winning election districts in 2020.

    this inaction however, at such a critically meaningful moment in the history of the American republic, is significant.

    studying how empires fall throughout history is fascinating.
    all have at least some common reasons.
    common points have been the failure of moral will, and, the ability to move forward programs that push improvement.
    roads dont get improved, infrastructure falls apart, groups factionalize, common good is not recognized.

    the so-called American Century lasted for more than 100 years.
    i have always thought that the American Empire began around the time that the trans-continental railroad was completed. we have just celebrated 150 years since this milestone.
    it allowed America to fully become a Pacific Ocean facing power as well as an Atlantic facing power.

    has rump has destroyed so much?
    no, he and his co-conspirator so-called "base" have just allowed the racial prejudices that have been present to come to the surface and seem to be gaining ground.
    but even now, these people represent "only" 30% to 40% of USAmericans.
    i dont think these people or their numbers are increasing.
    they have been allowed to crawl out from under the rocks they have been hiding under.
    now they say their hate speech wherever. even on white house grounds.
    they themselves are in power now. ala Stevie Miller.

    there is hope.

    demographics is destiny.
    in just a few more years, Texas, Georgia, and many other states will become safely Blue States.
    Citizen's United, and Political Gerrymandering have been declared Constitutionally OK.
    it will take 4 or 5 more four-year terms of Presidential elections before the Supreme Court is again a Warren kind of court. where freedom is evident.

    the Republican Party has morphed itself into a Nationalist party.
    It has aligned itself with Dictators.
    its not about rump.
    rump has shown them a way to win that traditional R people never thought of before.
    and they like the taste of power.

    stay strong and retain hope for about 20 to 25 more years.
    but the stain of a D controlled House not impeaching rump will remain, however, forever.
    and i think in the future, it will be able to pointed out to be a decisive point in American history.
    representing a failure of will.
  9. jkcerda macrumors 6502a


    Jun 10, 2013
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    Trump will win just based on the clowns the left hasta the front
  10. Eraserhead macrumors G4


    Nov 3, 2005
    Take cash bail. Declared unconstitutional by the 1689 bill of rights. Still a thing in 21st century America.

    The needs of the poor have been ignored for too long.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 25, 2019 ---
    No left wing candidate would satisfy you :(.
  11. vrDrew macrumors 65816

    Jan 31, 2010
    Midlife, Midwest
    Au contraire!

    The needs of America's white rural poor have been amply satisfied, courtesy of a century and a half of structural racism. Substandard wages and lack of healthcare were accepted for the satisfaction of knowing that they were better off than the equally poor black families living on the wrong side of town.

    But eventually that system broke down. Rural and suburban white America woke up to the sad reality of a broken social contract. They nursed their pain with guns, NASCAR, and oxycontin for a while.

    But lately they've been donning red caps, and congregating at televised rallies where they can holler their rage to the cosmos (or Fox satellite trucks) in chilling choruses of "Lock her up!" and "Send them back!"

    That's what "Make America Great Again" is all about.

    The Affordable Care Act (ie. the dreaded Obamacare) was a genuine attempt to address the needs of America's poor. Among whom the "middle class" must now be counted. But because it helped the black or brown poor equally well - it was rejected as the wages of Satan. Or Socialism.
  12. Rogifan thread starter macrumors Core


    Nov 14, 2011
    So Adam Schiff says this morning they’re not moving forward on impeachment because the senate wouldn’t convict. Sorry that’s a cop-out. If House Dems believe Trump did impeachable things then they need to impeach him regardless of what the Senate might do. And if the public is behind them that will change what the Senate does, because at the end of the day what a political cares about most is being re-elected.
  13. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040


    Mar 3, 2010
    I thought that Schiff had conclusive evidence...
  14. roland.g macrumors 603


    Apr 11, 2005
    Ok. But let’s talk about that. The House, or to the point the Democrats in the House don’t necessarily believe he did impeachable things (not as a group, though I’m sure a few honestly do believe he did), because the talk of impeachment, while I’m sure there was always a hope of some smoking gun on the election, or Stormy, or obstruction (or whatever the angle of the week is), the talk was always about two things:

    1. Optics. How can we look good to our base and in the media and take the House in 2018 and hope to take the White House in 2020.

    2. Killing Time/Resistance. How can we as a group (Democrats in the House) do as much as possible to kill time during Trump’s presidency so as to look like we are doing something but not actually legislating and doing what we can to thwart the legislative agenda of his administration by miring it in this distraction. Essentially bring his ability to get things done to a crawl. If you look at the border, much of the rhetoric there is driven by the same playbook.

    Is this effective? 2020 will tell.
  15. Rogifan thread starter macrumors Core


    Nov 14, 2011
    That might be their strategy but I’m not sure it will be effective. The only thing that might save them is once more debates happen and the primary season gets under way that’s what the media will be focusing on and it will be like Mueller never existed.
  16. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040


    Mar 3, 2010
    Well, we have to wait on the IG report to see if the Mueller fallout will fade away. If the IG paints a damning picture of the FBI and DOJ in relations to the Steele dossier you can bet that Trump and the Republicans will use it until the end of time.
    Two of Mueller's answers yesterday really disturbed me, but I'll wait the IG report for any true judgment of the situation.
  17. jkcerda macrumors 6502a


    Jun 10, 2013
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    Tulsi is the only one I am willing to take a chance on.
  18. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Feb 14, 2004
    OBJECTIVE reality
    Please bear with me; this will take a bit of explanation.

    Once upon a time it was good enough that you showed up at a debate and knew your stuff. Then came Kennedy-Nixon, and suddenly you had to not only know your stuff, you had to look good doing it. That's what television got us.

    Then TV warped the game even more. For something like two decades now, millions of us have been glued to our TVs watching reality shows, slowly being trained to view everything in life as a competition. Survivor gives us Machiavellian players who are BS artists who are willing to double-cross each other and don't mind everyone knowing it, all in the pursuit of a bunch of moola. Big Brother is much the same. Even freaking Love It or List it is a competition between David and Hillary. Someone has to come out dominant, and the more so the better. America loves a winner.

    Except that too many of us have forgotten that we're all in this country together, and we're supposed to be trying to make it better. Instead we've gone tribal like Survivor. To the point where people who were never that upright to begin with, like Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham, have become ever-more-evil caricatures of themselves. They no longer care about the country; they just care about making the other side ****ed off.

    I think it explains why Trump's most ardent fans love him and stick with him. He's the biggest, most reckless bully in politics, and although being a huge bully doesn't necessarily translate into being either a patriot or a winner, they see it that way. To these particular fans, politics isn't a means toward a better nation; politics is WWF Wrestling.

    What's that got to do with how we throw a punch back at him? Simple. We've got to take what he's been dishing out and start throwing it back at him.

    The Democratic Party unfortunately is notoriously bad at this...and this attitude of "When they go low, we go high" just doesn't do it. We've got to fight Trump on his own level.

    That means, yes, name calling. That means throwing around "scare terms". Whatever Donald throws at you, you've to to throw it back, and do it worse.

    That's not to say you go to the Democratic convention and act like the total buffoon that Trump already is. You win over Democrats (and hopefully some Republicans) by having policies which appeal to their needs. But after spending 90% of your talk on serious matters, you have to leaven it with some crowd-pleasers. To show that you're just as tough. If Trump calls you Pocahontas, you have to call him a Whiny Little Bitch.

    Repeatedly. Again and again and again, until it sticks to him the way he tries to make Pocahontas stick to Warren. Until the tabloidy media start picking it up. And when it makes the jump from the media to everyday conversation, you've hit critical mass. You've shown you won't let him get away with bullying you. America loves a winner.

    Imagine a Warren-Trump debate in which, amid some serious policy talk, she slips in something like:

    You know, he keeps telling you he's a good businessman. Yet if you talk to people he's dealt with, he's such a loser. People tell me, "Liz. You can't imagine what a loser this guy is. Biggest loser ever. Big, big loser. The biggest. Lost money on casinos. Takes the biggest, the best businesses, and runs them into the ground. People said they've never seen anything like this! They say, 'How can one person lose so much money?'" He's lost so much people just can't believe it. It's the most unbelievable thing ever!
    You see, of course, what I did there. I had Warren talking like Trump, basically mocking him out in the same puerile speech style he uses all the time.

    And I think pretty much everybody would recognize that that's not Warren's style of speech, that she was, in effect, making fun of him in front of the nation, letting the country know that she won't take any crap off him.

    And this, i stress for the third time, this should not be the meat and potatoes of the Democrats' talks, but a change-up, a little leavening. Democrats by and large want to hear mostly substantive talk. While they are not above enjoying a little theater, this kind of theater is not aimed at the Democratic base so much as it is aimed at everybody else. Non-base voters need to see that Democrats are not a bunch of pantywaists who'll take guff from a buffoon like Donald.

    Oh -- I mention scare terms. Hell yes, start throwing the word fascist around. Or are you gonna just sit there and let him call you socialists all the time (as if that were a bad thing)?

    Stop running from the term socialism. Emphasize that this is a capitalist-socialist society. If they don't believe you, tell them to return their Social Security checks and ACA subsidies, and the next time a hurricane comes through, they're on their own.

    I wish I could tell you that we didn't have to stoop to the same level as Donald Trump, but that's the age we live in now. I do hope that at some point in the future we will all tire of this and return to a more restrained type of political discourse. But for now, that won't work. We are truly in the era of nice guys finishing last.

    There's a lot more you could say to conservatives about how ill-used they've been by their leaders, but that's enough for now.
  19. samcraig macrumors P6

    Jun 22, 2009
    Well what we know is Trump will say and do anything as shown from 2016 to present. Now imagine this upcoming election with him knowing that if he doesn't win, he'll likely be prosecuted up the wazoo since he won't be President. Expect a clown show to end all clown shows.

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18 July 24, 2019