You cannot say "straighten up!".

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sydde, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #1
    Court upholds ban on "gay cures"

    LOS ANGELES — A federal appeals court on Thursday upheld California’s ban on therapies that aim to change the sexual orientations of gay and lesbian minors.

    In a unanimous decision, a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that the ban on “conversion therapy,” the first such law in the country, did not violate the free speech rights of counselors or people seeking treatment. The state has an interest in banning professional treatments that it deems harmful, the court ruled.

    “The First Amendment does not prevent a state from regulating treatment even when that treatment is performed through speech alone,” the opinion said.
    ...

    Last week, Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, widely viewed as a Republican presidential hopeful, signed a ban on gay conversion therapy, making his state the second to ban the practice. Bans have been introduced in Massachusetts and New York.

    Kind of a technicality, but homosexual orientation has not been considered a defect by mental health professionals for decades. Hence, those seeking to "cure" it can only be viewed as charlatans.

    Yet, we do not specifically enjoin deceitful business practices (for instance, it is not illegal to cajole a person into a mortgage that will almost certainly fail), so it is not clear whether these laws have any teeth to speak of. Certainly, professionals could face sanctions if they were to try this, but the people who provide anti-gay "therapy" are not accredited mental health professionals, so it is not obvious that they could be prosecuted.

    Are first amendment rights (like religious freedom) being compromised here? Or does the law fail to go far enough?
     
  2. AhmedFaisal, Sep 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2013
  3. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #3
    Just like Intelligent Design. "It's science, honest!" :rolleyes:
     
  4. Zaid macrumors 6502

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    #4
    I think the point is that this is prohibiting a deceitful pseudo-medical practice that has been shown to be harmful to potential patients. So this is more akin to banning a shampoo that claims to 'cure' baldness but ends up causing skin cancer.
     
  5. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #5
    Since the American Psychological Association had long ago declared "conversion therapy" totally ineffective and unproven treatment...and, therefore unethical to provide it, any Psychologist providing it could be sanctioned.

    In Mass, the title "Psychologist" is a legal designation and can only be used by licensed practitioners, once again sanctions could be applied. However, the designation "psychotherapist" is NOT regulated, and anyone can call themself a psychotherapist...so, as Sydde pointed out, one wonders what sanctions could be applied.
     
  6. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #6
    Well, perhaps we could de-portmanteau the title and handle these psycho therapists appropriately. Institutionalization sounds like the best course of action.
     
  7. xShane macrumors 6502a

    xShane

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    #7
    What's important to note is that they are banning a "treatment" that is actually harmful, instead of helpful.
     
  8. Michael Goff macrumors G4

    Michael Goff

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    #8
    Rights are not absolute, something people need to remember. You can't yell fire in a crowded movie theatre, for example. There are always supposed to be "common good" limits.
     
  9. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #9
    Additionally, a licensed practitioner cannot provide a treatment the is not only ineffective, but known to be both ineffective AND harmful...as is "conversion therapy".

    I'm not sure how the issue could even be interpreted as a freedom of speech issue.
     
  10. Michael Goff macrumors G4

    Michael Goff

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    #10
    No, no, they're actually arguing that it is a freedom of religion issue, where their religion gives them the right to hurt people. I was just giving an example where freedoms aren't absolute.
     
  11. aerok macrumors 65816

    aerok

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    #11
    I don't mind the existence of such ''treament'' if it exists for both sides (Gay to straight, straight to gay)
     
  12. Michael Goff macrumors G4

    Michael Goff

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    #12
    So that we could then cause long-term psychological damage to everyone?
     
  13. aerok macrumors 65816

    aerok

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    #13
    Makes it fair :p
     
  14. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #14
    Glad it's banned in my state. Christie actually did something right.
     
  15. APlotdevice macrumors 68040

    APlotdevice

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    #15
    You get emotionally scarred!
    And you get emotionally scarred!
    And you get emotionally scarred!
    Everyone gets emotionally scarred!
     
  16. ThisIsNotMe macrumors 68000

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    #16
    Don't see an issue with someone being encouraged to abandon a niche lifestyle in favor of something normal.
    The state shouldn't be in the business of social engineering.
     
  17. chrf097 macrumors 68040

    chrf097

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    #17
    But wait...

    How can you cure something that's not a disease?
     
  18. ThisIsNotMe macrumors 68000

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    #18
    So you would support laws which would make it illegal for health care professionals to encourage alcoholics to give up alcohol?
     
  19. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    #19
    Wouldn't this qualify as upholding a ban on a specific type of social engineering? They don't have the studies available to peddle such a thing as legitimate medical treatment.
     
  20. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #20
    Hello!?

    You jest, of course.

    If not, scientific source for assertion that gay affectional orientation is nor "normal".

    This is actually my silliest post today...:p
     
  21. chrf097 macrumors 68040

    chrf097

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    #21
    No, because Alcohol Poisoning is a real disease and Alcohol is also the direct cause of multiple diseases as well as brain disorders/issues.

    Homosexuality...that doesn't cause anything.
     
  22. Xgm541 macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    Just to be clear, the second part about the psychotherapist varies by state. In NY one cannot call themselves a psychotherapist or a mental health counselor without a proper license. This is something implemented within the last couple of years.
     
  23. chrono1081, Sep 15, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013

    chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #23
    If it was a "niche lifestyle" that could so easily be changed you wouldn't see near as many gay people as you do.

    As for your definition of "normal" its estimated between 8 - 10% of the population is gay, and homosexuality has been studied in pretty much every species on the planet.

    I'd say although not common, its completely normal, just like redheads aren't common but they're normal.

    EDIT: To be more clear a large amount of "gay therapy" involves straight up sexual abuse (being forced to masturbate in front of others, smell jars of feces, watch porn, etc). There is even a company that "kidnaps" your gay kid and forces them into free child labor at one of their camps. I wish that was as far fetched as it sounds but its not. Children should never be subject to that kind of abuse. Fake therapy needs to always be banned.
     
  24. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #24
    it is an unforgivable situation here, and a much more sensible approach in NY. Having a situation as we have in Mass leads to much confusion among the public. Also, since unlicensed "practitioners" cannot bill insurance. Medicare, Medicaid, etc., it leads to folks paying a lot of money to unqualified charlatans.
     
  25. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #25

    Being gay is not a choice.

    Being a bigot is. It's also not normal and is a niche lifestyle.
     

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