You thought the NSA was bad? Consider the UK authorities

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by VulchR, Nov 6, 2014.

  1. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #1
    BBC news story: MI5, MI6 and GCHQ 'spied on lawyers'

    OK so since I've been in the UK, the right to a jury trial has been rescinded, the right to silence was removed (but that was declared illegal by the European Courts), freedom from double jeopardy was rescinded, etc. etc. etc. Now lawyers defending the UK surveillance agencies from lawsuits about violating human rights were given privileged communication between the complainants and their lawyers.

    And yet, there has been rather muted reaction to this in the UK - it should cause the government to fall and legislation to protect the client-attorney privilege. I wonder if this is how people felt in the 1930's.
     
  2. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #2
    England is being subsumed into a Orwellian nightmare of universal government surveillance.
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #3
    the GOVT must save your from yourself, anyone who disagrees with the GOVT is a traitor.............
     
  4. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #4
    Certainly in this case they either did that or the criminal justice system lost all credibility with the black community. And in reality losing the freedom from double jeopardy hasn't caused any issues at all.
     
  5. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #5
    It is actually getting a little scary. Frankly that only thing currently that prevents the Orwellian nightmare is the generally good character of the public servants. However, that cannot be relied upon forever and already there are ugly xenophobic political movements (e.g., UKIP), flagging respect for conventional politicians and the law, the widespread perception of threat that is stoked by the press, etc. It seems to me to be close to the tipping point, and it would only take an economic shock - like a suicidal withdrawal from the EU followed by tensions with the EU - to push things over the edge.
     
  6. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #6
    Juries are expensive.

    At least in Britain the poor can usually get reasonable lawyers to defend them (although the current coalition has made that less clear), unlike in the US where only the rich really get any access to justice.

    These problems are hard :(.
     
  7. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #7
    Not yet. But what if the government decides to get its way in a case by simply bankrupting somebody by repeated trials and thereby depriving them of legal representation? Mark my words - this will come back to haunt the UK (well, England (possibly Wales as well?). Scotland has a verdict of 'not proven' which allows a case to be retired if there is new evidence. Not sure about NI).

    Justice is not a commodity that state should skimp on just because it is inconvenient or costly. Parliament is costly, but the UK has not reverted back to being ruled by one person. Yet.
     
  8. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #8
    Reminds me:

     
  9. Eraserhead, Nov 6, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2014

    Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #9
    You had to figure out whether it was better for the justice system to be utterly discredited by millions of people or to save this principal which as caused no issues whatsoever over the last fifteen years.

    Besides the government can still screw you over by giving you a bad credit rating and by getting social services to take your children away (which is only protected by balance of probabilities).

    Which countries don't skimp on justice?
     
  10. satcomer macrumors 603

    satcomer

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    #10
    Didn't Pink Floyd warn of this?
     
  11. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #11
    ASBOs would be another good thing that the government could use to screw you if it chose.
     
  12. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #12
    The US Constitution grants the right to a jury trial in criminal cases, for one.
     
  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #13
    Great. But if you arent rich in America you can't get a decent lawyer. So while the U.S. justice system is better in theory in reality the U.S. justice system fails vastly more people than the British one.
     
  14. VulchR thread starter macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #14
    Erm... hasn't the funding been cut for legal aid in the UK? Perhaps the UK is not so enlightened after all.... All I am saying is that in the Uk there is a complacency about human rights, as though they always existed and will continue to exist without due vigilance. I'm just a guest here, so I cannot vote in UK elections. I just wish those who can vote in the UK would wake up and smell the coffee.

    And in other news: UK censorship - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-29918326
     
  15. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #15
    Fixed that for you. Now face your telescreen, because it's time for your two minutes hate.:eek:
     
  16. Roric macrumors regular

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    #16
    Someone had to take over now that News of The World is gone. :D
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #17
    I agree that the legal aid cuts are bad.

    True, but I don't think losing double jeopardy and trial by jury are good examples of that.
     
  18. DonJudgeMe macrumors regular

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    #18
    Just 10 more steps toward a world government. Yikes.
     

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