Harry the Nazi

[virividox]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/01/12/harry.nazi/index.html

well he does have 'german lineage'

i dont know, it doesnt take a genius to figure out this costume is always a bad idea, much less if your a public figure always under scrutiny.

[yoda13]

Yeah, that was pretty stupid, I cannot imagine what he was thinking, or why someone didn't say something to him, he has to have PR people around him most of the time.... :p

[Blue Velvet]

Absolutely disgraceful... despite the palace's constant PR efforts we see him for what he really is.

An idiotic toff.

Bring on the republic...

[Xtremehkr]

Harry got a raw deal, he not handling it well, but I don't imagine his behaviour will get much better.... wait, what am I saying? he's a Prince, get a grip Harry.

[LethalWolfe]

Yeah... mental note: When going to a "fancy dress party" don't dress up like a f'n Nazi (especially if you happen to a Prince or something).

Talk about being competely mindless...


Lethal

[virividox]

hasnt he been in enough scandals as of late? i guess he just wants to start 2005 of with a bang.

[iGav]

You never know... hopefully somebody will give him a damn good kicking when he joins Sandhurst.

We can but hope.

[absolut_mac]

An idiotic toff.

Fortunately I don't live in England, but even if I did it wouldn't bother me one iota how much of an idiotic *toff* he is.

What would make me livid though, is him being an idiotic *toff* on MY money. If he wants to act like a moron, let him do it with his own money and accept no money from our hard working overtaxed British cousins ;)

[kettle]

I look at it as a good sign he will cause trouble for that royal "house"
There are people who want Monarchy but had no say or control when this house took the throne. I would rather have a different house up there, and seeing this tells me that "Harry" isn't that impressed with the people running his life either.

As far as being a person, I think that Harry should be allowed to do what he likes, including make a lot of people angry by wearing Nazi insignia to a party. It probably feels quite good to cause an "action reaction" event all without the "permission" of the people who yank him about on a chain.

Do you really think he is a "Nazi"? Is that what is upsetting people or are only "some" people allowed to juxtapose elements to communicate ideas.

It probably feels quite horrible to know that a large proportion of people think you are a "Nazi" because of what happened in your families past.

Who exactly are we judging here.

Should we say down with the "House of Hanover" and kick the buggers out or just keep nit picking about the the way this House is destroying the "Monarchy" system in Britain.

[Blue Velvet]

Fortunately I don't live in England, but even if I did it wouldn't bother me one iota how much of an idiotic *toff* he is.

What would make me livid though, is him being an idiotic *toff* on MY money. If he wants to act like a moron, let him do it with his own money and accept no money from our hard working overtaxed British cousins ;)

Exactly. The welfare state for the rich...

[edesignuk]

Blatant stupidity. There's no excuse. You'd think someone would have piped up and said "erm...excuse me sir, are you sure that's a good idea?" :rolleyes:

[absolut_mac]

Blatant stupidity. There's no excuse. You'd think someone would have piped up and said "erm...excuse me sir, and you sure that's a good idea?" :rolleyes:

Hahaha, not going to happen when you surround yourself with *yes* men.

Just look at some of the idiotic things that our president is proposing, and nobody has the courage to say to him exactly what is in your quote above :mad:

[bartelby]

I've got to say I don't really care!
It was a fancy dress party!!!!
Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
If the press didn''t blow things totally out of proportion...well they wouldn't sell papers.

[virividox]

I've got to say I don't really care!
It was a fancy dress party!!!!
Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
If the press didn''t blow things totally out of proportion...well they wouldn't sell papers.

yes but normal ppl dont have the press on their backs 24/7 and as a future leader of the UK, at the very least a public figure he should use better judgment. sure you can argue that the nazis are so WWII and to get over it because he didnt mean anything and it was harmless fun blah blah blah, but for some ppl this remains a senstive issue, and he as a responsible public figure shouldnt be insentive to those people

[Blue Velvet]

I've got to say I don't really care!
It was a fancy dress party!!!!
Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
If the press didn''t blow things totally out of proportion...well they wouldn't sell papers.

If you can't see this for what it is, then I despair...

It's a massive insult to millions of people and their descendants. The Nazi swastika is a symbol of rascism, fascism and state-sponsored genocide. Even the BNP draw the line at openly displaying Nazi regalia... there's nothing 'ironic' or amusing about the swastika. It's a gross act of insensitivity...

Also, the point is: he's not a 'normal' person, he's 3rd in line to the throne, lives an extremely comfortable life courtesy of the UK taxpayer, and is therefore at one level, a representative of the UK nation.

[edesignuk]

Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
"Normal" people aren't possible futures Kings, and at the very least aren't already princes :rolleyes:

[iGav]

and seeing this tells me that "Harry" isn't that impressed with the people running his life either.

He doesn't have to be a part of it though if he doesn't like it, he could quite easily abdicate...

[virividox]

He doesn't have to be a part of it though if he doesn't like it, he could quite easily abdicate...

i thought you could only abdicate if you were offered the throne

well i think if harry wants to do stupid things then he shouldnt be bankrolled by the tax payer. im not a brit citizen, but i feel sorry that ppl have to pay taxes to help this guy live a cushy life where he goes around doing stupid things embarassing his country and family. cant he take a clue from his older brother who doesnt seem to get into as much trouble as harry

[kettle]

He doesn't have to be a part of it though if he doesn't like it, he could quite easily abdicate...

Purely from a human perspective, forgetting politics, I don't think it is that easy. He doesn't have to dismiss a concept like it's a multiple choice question, he has to turn on every thing he knows as "family" however twisted that may seem to people of more usual situations.

lesser :rolleyes: mortals amongst us may be able to relate to people accidentally born into family businesses. It is a huge pressure having to hear other people discussing personal future like it's already decided. Anyone who lets down their family will know that it isn't a pleasant process, different members absorbing the break in different ways and slinging blame like it's going to find "correct answers". Which member of his family is Harry supposed to let down first?

I think I'd want to be with my brother.

[iGav]

i thought you could only abdicate if you were offered the throne

No... abdicate means to relinquish. He could remove himself from Royal life and commitments if he so desired.

[edesignuk]

cant he take a clue from his older brother who doesnt seem to get into as much trouble as harryWilliam has no choice but to behave, he is future king, which maybe part of why Harry gets in to trouble all the time, maybe envy of his big brother?

[iGav]

Purely from a human perspective, forgetting politics, I don't think it is that easy.

I agree, but the option is there for him.

What really gets my back up is that the Queen shouldn't actually be the Queen. They traced the rightful 'Monarch' to a guy in Oz.

[iGav]

William has no choice but to behave, he is future king,

No... he could abdicate as well.

Can you see where this is going... they should all abdicate and make me King, I'd only ask for 5 grand a week ;) :D

[bartelby]

If you can't see this for what it is, then I despair...

It's a massive insult to millions of people and their descendants. The Nazi swastika is a symbol of rascism, fascism and state-sponsored genocide. Even the BNP draw the line at openly displaying Nazi regalia... there's nothing 'ironic' or amusing about the swastika. It's a gross act of insensitivity...

Also, the point is: he's not a 'normal' person, he's 3rd in line to the throne, lives an extremely comfortable life courtesy of the UK taxpayer, and is therefore at one level, a representative of the UK nation.

If I can't see it for what it is?
I can, a costume at a fancy dress party.
and obviously he has a concentration camp in his back garden and he's planning to invade Poland!

[bartelby]

I agree, but the option is there for him.

What really gets my back up is that the Queen shouldn't actually be the Queen. They traced the rightful 'Monarch' to a guy in Oz.


I say we don't need a bunch of freeloading toffs at all, sell em to Disney!

[Blue Velvet]

If I can't see it for what it is?
I can, a costume at a fancy dress party.
and obviously he has a concentration camp in his back garden and he's planning to invade Poland!

Oh right.

So if he'd gone in a Klu Klux Klan outfit that would have been OK as well?

[stubeeef]

What is the feeling of what things would be like if Edward had not abdicated?

It seems this line is not a great one, It is good you have Blair and not Charles eh!

[andiwm2003]

i heard the european royal families suffer from centuries of inbreeding.
i never really believed that. but now...... :D

[bartelby]

Oh right.

So if he'd gone in a Klu Klux Klan outfit that would have been OK as well?

To me it would be the same as going dressed as a clown or a fairy or the rear end of a horse, he's wouldn't be one of those would he?
So why should dressing as a nazi make him one?
It's just fancy dress, I can distinguish reality from fantasy.

Maybe it's just me.
I have no interest in what famous people do, I rarely watch TV I don't read gossip in newspaper (as gossip isn't news). I just can't believe the fuss being kicked up about it.

OK, I admit you could view it as bad taste, but does it deserve the media coverage it's getting or are there more important subjects for the front pages and lead headlines?

[virividox]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/01/13/harry.react/index.html

heres a follow up article

looks like theres more fall out, some are even calling for him to not go to sandhurst

[Blue Velvet]

To me it would be the same as going dressed as a clown or a fairy or the rear end of a horse, he's wouldn't be one of those would he?
So why should dressing as a nazi make him one?
It's just fancy dress, I can distinguish reality from fantasy.

Maybe it's just me.
I have no interest in what famous people do, I rarely watch TV I don't read gossip in newspaper (as gossip isn't news). I just can't believe the fuss being kicked up about it.

OK, I admit you could view it as bad taste, but does it deserve the media coverage it's getting or are there more important subjects for the front pages and lead headlines?

Well, he's certainly doing a good impression of a rear of a horse at the moment...

Certain articles of clothing have a symbolic value that carry a meaning far beyond a mere costume. If you can't see that, then I believe you are being wilfully obtuse...

[edesignuk]

looks like theres more fall out, some are even calling for him to not go to sandhurst
I heard that on the news this morning. Not quite sure what sense it makes not to let him go :rolleyes:

[Mr. Anderson]

You never know... hopefully somebody will give him a damn good kicking when he joins Sandhurst.

We can but hope.

Ha! But his celebrity status will protect him from that, I'm sure.... :rolleyes:

Apology aside, I'd love to here from him *how* he went about getting a Nazi uniform and deciding to wear it in the first place.

D

[andiwm2003]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/01/13/harry.react/index.html

heres a follow up article

looks like theres more fall out, some are even calling for him to not go to sandhurst


he should be banned.

ah, no ....... that only happens at MacRumors.......

[Applespider]

Like most of the toffs and it-people around Kensington and Chelsea, he appears to have no concept of what effect his actions may provoke or what others may think - and like most of them doesn't care either. It's just something amusing that the plebs get riled up over after all...

The Palace have apologised - they probably didn't bother to wake Harry before they did so. So I doubt the furore will have any impact on him.

I know it was fancy dress and there are situations where people wear costumes that otherwise they wouldn't. See a 'guys and dolls' where some men choose to cross dress for humour's sake. But unless the party theme was 'dress as an extra from Indiana Jones' party the costume was inappropriate

The theme was apparently 'colonials and natives' - I can't even see how a Nazi officer is obvious there!

[bartelby]

Well, he's certainly doing a good impression of a rear of a horse at the moment...

Certain articles of clothing have a symbolic value that carry a meaning far beyond a mere costume. If you can't see that, then I believe you are being wilfully obtuse...


OK, so the rear end of a horse was a bad example because he, along with the rest of them, clearly is one.

Yes, I can see the symbolic value, but does wearing a certain garment as fancy dress mean you subscribe to all the meanings behind that garment.
I say no!

[Blue Velvet]

Like most of the toffs and it-people around Kensington and Chelsea...

Don't tar us all with the same brush.
Not all people who live in K&C are like that... incl. me.

[Applespider]

Certainly not - I work in K&C and most who live/work there are normal, pleasant people. I was trying to blame toffs and it-people - specifically the subset of them who live in K&C, since they come across as arrogant, uncaring jerks much of the time as they sweep out of the Rolls Royce into Jimmy Choo, little caring who happens to be walking along the pavement at the time.

[virividox]

Don't tar us all with the same brush.
Not all people who live in K&C are like that... incl. me.

here here i have some family who live in that area!!! they arent at all like that

on a lighter note think of it hes only 20 imagine the years of stupidy we will have the honor to witnessing

[VincentVega]

i heard the european royal families suffer from centuries of inbreeding.
i never really believed that. but now...... :D

It's true, actually. There are plenty of links between the various royal houses.

A lot of the connections came up in the 1400s and 1500s - Henry VIII and his six wives. Catherine of Aragon (first wife) was a Spanish Princess, her cousin was the Imperial Emperor. There's links to the soon-to-be-beheaded French monarchy as well.

Prince Phillip, the husband of the current queen, is of Greek descent. People often comment about the Germanic links of the current British royals as well.

As for Harry, I'd personally line him, blindfolded, up against the wall and show no sympathy at all. He's a complete idiot. Given that it's coming up to the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, it's particularly insensitive timing. Harry seems to have inherited his father's lack of intelligence instead of his comedy ears.

[Lord Blackadder]

I'm a huge WWII buff, but even in historical circles the Swastika is generally considered to be an item that should not be visible outside an educational context. In fact, even the guys that do WWII re-enactments are very careful about removing such insignia when they are not actually "on the field".

the Swastika was and is the standard of the Nazis and their ideological descendants, and has come to represent evil and hate to our society. It is extremely offensive, and I can hardly over-emphasize that.

So, Harry's costume was a dumb idea, and hopefully nothing more than that. Hopefully this scandal doesn't cause too much permanent damage to his public image

[Lord Blackadder]

Harry seems to have inherited his father's lack of intelligence instead of his comedy ears.

THAT made me laugh. :)

Could somebody fill this Yank in on what general public opinion of the Princes in the UK is nowadays? My knowlege on the current state of the monarchy is shaky.

[stubeeef]

Harry seems to have inherited his father's lack of intelligence instead of his comedy ears.

rofl :p

[iGav]

Could somebody fill this Yank in on what general public opinion of the Princes in the UK is nowadays?

William = Just like his Mum
Harry = Just like Hewitt... heheheheh

[absolut_mac]

Harry seems to have inherited his father's lack of intelligence instead of his comedy ears.

Thanks for brightening up my bleak California morning :)

At least if he would have inherited his father's ears people (read plebs) would just smile at him insead of being insulted by his stupidity and lack of sensitivity!

[brap]

on a lighter note think of it hes only 20 imagine the years of stupidy we will have the honor to witnessing
That boy deserves a good kicking for all he's done of late. Skanky bastard... there's definitely Hewitt blood in there.

I'm a Royalist at heart, but this guy's a moron - someone, please... kill him before he gets the throne.

[virividox]

That boy deserves a good kicking for all he's done of late. Skanky bastard... there's definitely Hewitt blood in there.

I'm a Royalist at heart, but this guy's a moron - someone, please... kill him before he gets the throne.

lets just hope he never has the oppertunity to ascend to the throne
no need for his blood, just ship him off somewhere to live in isolation

[aricher]

His mother would have been so proud to see her son grow up to be such a fine young man. The royal family is pure rubbish and needs to be taken down a notch or two - maybe start by paying taxes like real citizens, er, subjects.

[munkle]

he should be banned.

ah, no ....... that only happens at MacRumors.......

I'm sure he wishes he command-z the whole thing though!

...must step away from computer... :p

[munkle]

Harry seems to have inherited his father's lack of intelligence instead of his comedy ears.

Or his grandfather's sense of political correctness ;)

[wdlove]

Prince Harry is young and inexperience, he's done a very stupid thing. Now that he has apologized, move on. I would imagine that it isn't easy living you life under public scrutiny. His own mother suffered terribly because of all the pressure.

[munkle]

Some choice quotes from Prince Philip:

"Do you still throw spears at each other?"
(on meeting Aborigines in Australia)

"If it has got four legs and it is not a chair, if it has got two wings and it flies but is not an aeroplane, and if it swims and it is not a submarine, the Cantonese will eat it."
(as spoken at a 1986 World Wildlife Fund meeting)

"How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them to pass test?"
(Asking a driving instructor in Oban, Scotland)

"Everybody was saying we must have more leisure. Now they are
complaining they are unemployed."
(comment made during a particularly bad recession in Britain in 1981)

"We don't come here [Canada] for our health. We can think of other ways of enjoying ourselves."
(on ambassadorial trip to Canada)

"If a cricketer, for instance, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?"
(in response to to the 1996 Dunblane shootings. Insightful.)

"It looks as if it was put in by an Indian"
(upon noticing a ramshackle fusebox whilst taking a tour of a factory near Edinburgh)

"If you stay here much longer, you'll all be slitty-eyed"
(to some British students in China)

" Deaf? If you live near this, no wonder you are deaf "
(After being greeted by a steel band during a visit to a school for young deaf people. Charming.)

"Well, you'll never fly in it, you're too fat to be an astronaut."
(to a small child when inspecting the NOVA spacecraft in Salford)

Seems so obvious where Harry gets it from now, they probably came up with the idea together.

[edesignuk]

Some choice quotes from Prince Philip:
Although these are terrible, there is more understanding to his views. He is a very old man, and of a very different generation, this is only made worse my the fact he is a Royal and is so even more old fashioned about things than others of his age (IMO). Yes, he shouldn't say the things he does, but in his day there wouldn't have been a problem. This is Harry's time, and he should know what you can and can't do.

That said, I do think this is being blown out of all proportion now, it's happened, it was very stupid. Forget about it and hope he has learnt from this.

[aloofman]

I'm a huge WWII buff, but even in historical circles the Swastika is generally considered to be an item that should not be visible outside an educational context. In fact, even the guys that do WWII re-enactments are very careful about removing such insignia when they are not actually "on the field".

the Swastika was and is the standard of the Nazis and their ideological descendants, and has come to represent evil and hate to our society. It is extremely offensive, and I can hardly over-emphasize that.

So, Harry's costume was a dumb idea, and hopefully nothing more than that. Hopefully this scandal doesn't cause too much permanent damage to his public image

I have an uncle who's very much into WWII history and memorabilia. He is also into the old-style G.I. Joe figures. (I call them dolls.) Some of these dolls are German soldiers, with the full uniform. He goes to the conventions and all that, and his interest is purely in the military history. He admires the fighting spirit of both sides and likes re-enacting the battles, that kind of thing. For authenticity's sake, that means some of the dolls' uniforms have swastikas on them.

One time I was house-sitting for the family and saw one of these German soldier dolls in my cousin's (his son's) room. My cousin is 13 years old and he likes the WWII stuff too. This particular doll had a Nazi flag, about 4" x 3" in size. I could not get my head around the idea that he had a Nazi flag in his room, even if it was in the context of this little wargames hobby. I tore the flag up and threw it away. My uncle is not an anti-Semite or a Holocaust denier or admiring of Nazi policies in any way. But he is somewhat stubborn and ignorant of other people's feelings. It's one thing to have a little swastika on the sleeve of one doll among a whole shelf-ful of other figures. But a flag that big in plain sight of anyone who might visit? My concern was that he was being too nonchalant -- and by extension, my cousin too -- about a symbol that represents hatred and suffering for many people.

Later I wondered if I should have confronted him about it instead of just throwing the little flag away. My gut feeling is that he was so casual about it that he probably didn't notice its absence. I've resolved to speak to him about it personally if I noticed something like that happening again, but the whole thing still kind of unsettles me.

[snkTab]

how is a white shirt with a armband a uniform.

[virividox]

Some choice quotes from Prince Philip:



Seems so obvious where Harry gets it from now, they probably came up with the idea together.

prince philip is a real piece of work. that's all i can say!

[VincentVega]

THAT made me laugh. :)

Could somebody fill this Yank in on what general public opinion of the Princes in the UK is nowadays? My knowlege on the current state of the monarchy is shaky.

Prince Phillip. Senile, doddering old fool. See posts above. Insensitive, out of touch, arrogant, rude, obnoxious. Racist bigot.
Prince Charles. Out-of-touch (he likes hunting with hounds (foxes, deer and the like), this is set to be banned shortly, most people disapprove of the practice). Made stupid comments about how wrong it was for common folk to want to make something out of their lives (getting ideas above their station). Talks to plants. Has hideous taste in women (Camilla Parker-Bowles). There have been newspaper articles in the past about how he should renounce his claim to the throne and pass it straight to William, his eldest son. Not terribly intelligent. Does some good work (Prince's Trust and so on), but he should stay out of politics and try and act more regal.
Prince William. I'd say he's probably fairly popular. He doesn't do much, really, least of all anything that's offensive. He's thought of as a bit of a heart throb (as a heterosexual male, I don't see it myself, but anyway). He reminds me a lot of his late mum, Princess Diana.
Prince Harry = the English version of Paris Hilton. Gets in fights with photographers. Insensitive, dresses up with Nazi regalia. Likes his alcohol. He strikes me as being quite dumb. His stock is very, very, very low at present. To me, he is the Royal Family in microcosm: past their sell by date, in need of retirement (or a mercy killing). He would probably have turned out much better if his mum was still alive. (His mum was probably the most popular Royal of them all.)
Prince Andrew. Was in the Navy, I think. Not sure what he does nowadays. He likes his taxpayer-funded trips abroad. If he vanished off the face of the earth, no-one would miss him (possibly his kids might, but that's two people out of around 9 billion or so).
Prince Edward. Utterly hopeless. Probably the least beloved of the Queen's children (the others (that I can remember) being Charles, Andrew and Anne). Ran a TV production company with no success at all. Doesn't do anything worthwhile, a waste of space.
Princess Anne, the Princess Royal. I'd say she has a pretty good reputation (relatively speaking). She does a fair bit for charity. She's a bit horsey, a trait shared by her daughter, Zara Phillips.
Princess Margaret (deceased), sister of Queen Elizabeth II. Battle axe. Admired by few, missed by even fewer. Liked her alcohol. Held dubious views (a product of her time?). Newspaper articles in the wake of her death were not terribly complementary (at least the ones I read).

There are lots of other Royals as well, but no-one really cares about them. They are hardly worth writing about. So I won't.

[rogerw]

Prince Phillip. Senile, doddering old fool. See posts above. Insensitive, out of touch, arrogant, rude, obnoxious. Racist bigot.
Prince Charles. Out-of-touch (he likes hunting with hounds (foxes, deer and the like), this is set to be banned shortly, most people disapprove of the practice). Made stupid comments about how wrong it was for common folk to want to make something out of their lives (getting ideas above their station). Talks to plants. Has hideous taste in women (Camilla Parker-Bowles). There have been newspaper articles in the past about how he should renounce his claim to the throne and pass it straight to William, his eldest son. Not terribly intelligent. Does some good work (Prince's Trust and so on), but he should stay out of politics and try and act more regal.
Prince William. I'd say he's probably fairly popular. He doesn't do much, really, least of all anything that's offensive. He's thought of as a bit of a heart throb (as a heterosexual male, I don't see it myself, but anyway). He reminds me a lot of his late mum, Princess Diana.
Prince Harry = the English version of Paris Hilton. Gets in fights with photographers. Insensitive, dresses up with Nazi regalia. Likes his alcohol. He strikes me as being quite dumb. His stock is very, very, very low at present. To me, he is the Royal Family in microcosm: past their sell by date, in need of retirement (or a mercy killing). He would probably have turned out much better if his mum was still alive. (His mum was probably the most popular Royal of them all.)
Prince Andrew. Was in the Navy, I think. Not sure what he does nowadays. He likes his taxpayer-funded trips abroad. If he vanished off the face of the earth, no-one would miss him (possibly his kids might, but that's two people out of around 9 billion or so).
Prince Edward. Utterly hopeless. Probably the least beloved of the Queen's children (the others (that I can remember) being Charles, Andrew and Anne). Ran a TV production company with no success at all. Doesn't do anything worthwhile, a waste of space.
Princess Anne, the Princess Royal. I'd say she has a pretty good reputation (relatively speaking). She does a fair bit for charity. She's a bit horsey, a trait shared by her daughter, Zara Phillips.
Princess Margaret (deceased), sister of Queen Elizabeth II. Battle axe. Admired by few, missed by even fewer. Liked her alcohol. Held dubious views (a product of her time?). Newspaper articles in the wake of her death were not terribly complementary (at least the ones I read).

There are lots of other Royals as well, but no-one really cares about them. They are hardly worth writing about. So I won't.


Dont hold back, say what you think!

[Lord Blackadder]

how is a white shirt with a armband a uniform.

It's more than just a shirt with an armband, there are other insignia sewn on. It's fairly obviously an attempt to approximate a Wermacht uniform. And that isn't just an armband, as I have explained at some length above .

Prince philip - Daaaayyyum, I can't believe he said all that! Like edesign said he IS from a different generation (although as a high profile figure he should be held to a high standard of behavior). Prince Harry should know better, but I fear that this scandal is going to be trotted out every time he commits another faux pas for the rest of his life, which is unfortunate.

aloofman:

Being too young to have seen WWII in person, I don't have the physical reaction that many of the older generations do to Nazi imagery. Perhaps it's because I've always been fascinated with history and WWII and have come to understand the events better without experiencing them, and the study of history can dull the drama or humanity of events. People fear less what they think they know well. Still, I don't think that the Swastika should ever be displayed or treated in a casual manner (as it often is these days), and one should always be sensitive to the millions of people alive today who WERE there.

By the same token, one should be careful to distinguish between carelessness/thoughtlessness (i.e. the topic of this thread) and malicious intent (racism/neo-Nazism). One is bad, but the other is FAR worse.

[GonzoRob]

He doesn't have to be a part of it though if he doesn't like it, he could quite easily abdicate...

jesus, what a clever comment! ... No, he cant abdicate from his postition.. he's a prince. That title is given to him as a birth right - he cant escape it. As he has been apointed *no* position, just a title, he therefore can not abdicate from any role....
Yes, he could run away from his family and home.. but who really does that ? AND thats not abdication anyway

go and read a book, not The Sun.

Rob

[Blue Velvet]

Princess Anne, the Princess Royal. I'd say she has a pretty good reputation (relatively speaking). She does a fair bit for charity. She's a bit horsey, a trait shared by her daughter, Zara Phillips.

Hilarious! :D

Princess Anne is also heavily involved with the Olympic movement and supports the Scottish rugby team... seems to be one of the few that actually does something useful.

[aloofman]

aloofman:

By the same token, one should be careful to distinguish between carelessness/thoughtlessness (i.e. the topic of this thread) and malicious intent (racism/neo-Nazism). One is bad, but the other is FAR worse.

I agree. And like I said, I know that it's more out of insensitivity than malice. I just fear that it will interpreted as meaning something more and would hate to see either of them judged on that.

[virividox]

i want to know where harry got that costume, i did a quick google search and didnt really find anything

[absolut_mac]

Prince Harry = the English version of Paris Hilton.

Harry is definitely not as attractive as her. And even although Paris is far less offensive than him, I wish that someone would point out to her how moronic she looks with that perpetual silly smirk on her face.

Thanks for summing up the royal family for us. We appreciate your accurate descriptions and dry wit, although they - the royals - probably don't ;)

[Mechcozmo]

well he does have 'german lineage'

Not all germans were Nazis and not all Nazis were germans.

yes but normal ppl dont have the press on their backs 24/7 and as a future leader of the UK, at the very least a public figure he should use better judgment. sure you can argue that the nazis are so WWII and to get over it because he didnt mean anything and it was harmless fun blah blah blah, but for some ppl this remains a senstive issue, and he as a responsible public figure shouldnt be insentive to those people

This is a rather sensitive topic for me and a number of my friends. There are still neo-Nazis today and this can be interpreted by them as a symbol that their leader has hidden intentions... I've studied enough of these people to know that it could be taken that way.

Prince Harry is young and inexperience, he's done a very stupid thing. Now that he has apologized, move on.

It shouldn't have happened in the first place. It really shouldn't have. This is not a very good thing to have happen for him, the royal family, and for Jews living in England. If taken the wrong way it could be bad. Taken on the light-er side, its just a stupid mistake that shouldn't have been made but was.

how is a white shirt with a armband a uniform.
The symbol on the armband, they style of the clothing, and the position of the armband make it a uniform.

[maya]

Just when I thought the royal family could not sink any lower this appears. :mad:


When will this child acquire some common sense? :mad:

[wdlove]

When a person apologizes we should be able to forgive. Being that he isn't an adult, he deserves a break. Like any other teenager it is tough to monitor them 24/7.

[takao]

When a person apologizes we should be able to forgive. Being that he isn't an adult, he deserves a break. Like any other teenager it is tough to monitor them 24/7.

isn't prince harry already 20 ? that's hardly teenager ;)

[blackfox]

Rather off-topic( since most of my sentiments on the matter-at-hand have been mentioned), but I am again reminded of the brilliance of whomever designed the German/Nazi-era uniforms.

Without a doubt, they are the most attractive-looking uniforms ever worn by a country's military forces. Even the swastika was a stroke of design/marketing genius.

Sadly, this is all ruined by association with what the Nazis represented and perpetrated against their fellow humanity.

It is curious how sensitive we in the West are to the Nazis and Hitler, in the context of them/him being behind at least Stalin and Mao in number of people killed/crimes against humanity, and possibly behind Amin and Pol Pot as well. I suppose it is a reminder that the West is not immune from such desptic tendencies.

Sorry to ramble, just thinking out loud...

[chanoc]

What if he went dressed as a Catholic Priest? See where I am going with this? The church has murdered more people than the Nazis, and not to mention the pedophiles. Oh, I hope that does not upset anybody, but I am not a prince with the media on my royal a$$, so it does not matter. :D

[virividox]

Rather off-topic( since most of my sentiments on the matter-at-hand have been mentioned), but I am again reminded of the brilliance of whomever designed the German/Nazi-era uniforms.

Without a doubt, they are the most attractive-looking uniforms ever worn by a country's military forces. Even the swastika was a stroke of design/marketing genius.

Sadly, this is all ruined by association with what the Nazis represented and perpetrated against their fellow humanity.

It is curious how sensitive we in the West are to the Nazis and Hitler, in the context of them/him being behind at least Stalin and Mao in number of people killed/crimes against humanity, and possibly behind Amin and Pol Pot as well. I suppose it is a reminder that the West is not immune from such desptic tendencies.

Sorry to ramble, just thinking out loud...

i have to agree with you here, the WWII uniforms of the germans were REALLY good looking, sharp, clean lines, very professional looking and imposing.

i know when i visit re-enactments sometimes they dont weaer the nazi swastika, but aside form that the uniform is complete

[Applespider]

When a person apologizes we should be able to forgive.

Except that the 'apology' has come in the form of a printed statement from the press officer at Clarence House and there's no evidence that Harry wrote it or saw it before its release. People are asking for a public apology so they get some idea that Harry is genuinely sorry and understands the upset he caused.

[kettle]

Ha! But his celebrity status will protect him from that, I'm sure.... :rolleyes:

Apology aside, I'd love to hear from him *how* he went about getting a Nazi uniform and deciding to wear it in the first place.

D

It's not difficult or illegal, what are you implying? I thought it would be obvious that a fancy dress would be an expression of wit, why would it become a personal affirmation of political ideology?

Are people actually concerned that because a public figure wears a Nazi uniform to make fun of his supposed family skeletons, the who country might turn into political undesirables?

otherwise what is the problem? Is it cover for the government to slip out some more "Bad News"? Is it distraction from the struggle between number 10 and 11?


There are lots of other Royals as well, but no-one really cares about them. They are hardly worth writing about. So I won't.

It's quite obvious you don't, thanks for your balanced opinion. :rolleyes:


As for Harry, I'd personally line him, blindfolded, up against the wall and show no sympathy at all. He's a complete idiot. Given that it's coming up to the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, it's particularly insensitive timing. Harry seems to have inherited his father's lack of intelligence instead of his comedy ears.

Are you deliberately trying to show how disgusting you can be? Presumably this is humour? It's not like he has attended a dinner in remembrance of the liberation of Auschwitz is it? He was at a private party, and personally in that context I find in very amusing that someone frequently referred to as a Nazi (among other derogatory names) because of his accident of birth, can see beyond the self importance of accidental position.

You're out for one thing and that's blood. What would you say to his family after you had personally lined him up, blindfolded, against the wall and shown no sympathy at all? Would you pull the trigger or would you order someone else to do it?

[virividox]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/01/14/harry.charles.reut/index.html
more follow up

looks likes hes going to the camp for sure. william is going too

[brap]

20-20 HINDSIGHT

“It just reaffirms that he is as stupid as everyone else our age.”
Marguerite Metz, age 20, textile design student, from Cambridge
Healthy, happy Brits we all are!

The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1439991,00.html) has a couple of interesting points, but nothing special. Of note, they mention that Michael Howard was (understandably) none too pleased.

[hob]

I've got to say I don't really care!
It was a fancy dress party!!!!
Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
If the press didn''t blow things totally out of proportion...well they wouldn't sell papers.

If you can't see this for what it is, then I despair...

It's a massive insult to millions of people and their descendants. The Nazi swastika is a symbol of rascism, fascism and state-sponsored genocide. Even the BNP draw the line at openly displaying Nazi regalia... there's nothing 'ironic' or amusing about the swastika. It's a gross act of insensitivity...

Also, the point is: he's not a 'normal' person, he's 3rd in line to the throne, lives an extremely comfortable life courtesy of the UK taxpayer, and is therefore at one level, a representative of the UK nation.

Sorry I'm late to the discussion, but I've been talking with people I know about this for a little while and to be honest I can see every angle:

1. It was a fancy dress party
2. He knew exactly what he was doing
3. It's hard being born into public scrutiny like he has been.
4. Even as 3rd in line to the throne, he's doubtful ever to take any position of massive responsibility
5. As a British male of a similar age to him I can understand his "rebellious" feelings
6. If anyone turned up to a "fancy dress" party at my house in a Nazi costume, they wouldn't be there for long.

Hob

[Peterkro]

i want to know where harry got that costume, i did a quick google search and didnt really find anything Cotswold Costumes in Nailsworth(I have friends there,quite a nice place actually fairly alternative).About the royal family,given their history I'm surprised they didn't have them in stock(see princess michael of Kent and edward the VIII).My Personal opinion they should all be strung up on lamposts(Regent street would be good,outside the Apple store.Diana was the only vaugely human one and she(as they constantly harped on about) was a commoner.(hey I've been up and working for 18 hours) :mad:

[Blue Velvet]

...this morning was reporting that he tried to order a SS uniform but that the costumers didn't have one in his size.

SS Uniform?

Slightly fetishistic and also a little troubling.

[iGav]

jesus, what a clever comment! ... No, he cant abdicate from his postition.. he's a prince. That title is given to him as a birth right - he cant escape it. As he has been apointed *no* position, just a title, he therefore can not abdicate from any role....
Yes, he could run away from his family and home.. but who really does that ? AND thats not abdication anyway

go and read a book, not The Sun.

Rob


Whoopsie daisy... I knew when I originally typed abdicate something clicked in the back of my head, I just couldn't think what. I mean renounce from his royal responsibilities.

He won't do of course, my point though was in answer to a post, that if he's so fed up from having his strings pulled, he could walk away from it all as opposed to behaving like a total tit.

Anyway it's not the first mistake I've made and it won't be the last... ;)

[takao]

...this morning was reporting that he tried to order a SS uniform but that the costumers didn't have one in his size.

SS Uniform?

Slightly fetishistic and also a little troubling.

while i would consider a wehrmacht uniform extremly stupid thing a SS uniform (while not being much different on the lower ranks) is "playing in a different league" ...

(and then i would consider it as rather sick and disturbing)

[kettle]

Whoopsie daisy... I knew when I originally typed abdicate something clicked in the back of my head, I just couldn't think what. I mean renounce from his royal responsibilities.

He won't do of course, my point though was in answer to a post, that if he's so fed up from having his strings pulled, he could walk away from it all as opposed to behaving like a total tit.

Anyway it's not the first mistake I've made and it won't be the last... ;)

No worries, luckily we all (most of us) :rolleyes: knew what you meant and understood the implied dynamic of the situation. If everyone had picked up on that point we would be discussing eligibility for abdication rather than what makes third on the bench act like a nut job. :) :rolleyes:

[groovebuster]

I've got to say I don't really care!
It was a fancy dress party!!!!
Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
If the press didn''t blow things totally out of proportion...well they wouldn't sell papers.
Actually in Germany you go straight to prison if they catch you in a "fancy dress" like this. Showing the swastika like this is breaking the law here...

groovebuster

[takao]

Actually in Germany you go straight to prison if they catch you in a "fancy dress" like this. Showing the swastika like this is breaking the law here...

groovebuster

yeah it would be hard to claim educational purpose with having a beer in your hand ... ;)

(reminded me of the thing one guy did in austria 5 years ago at the "wiener opernball" where he got himself driving in front of the red carpet in a rented white rolls royce, wearing a hitler costume (with makeup, fake moustache and complete uniform) as a protest against the opernball which costs lots of taxpayer money every year)

[MentalFabric]

Should it really be such a big deal if he dresses as a nazi to a fancy dress party? The royal family barely have any power these days anyway, but I don't think Harry's a Nazi. He just happens to be a little more open minded than most of the royal family and "the Sun" :-P I say let him do what he wants.

[pepita]

Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?

That's an interesting question. Funnily enough my answer is exactly opposite from yours. Not only would there be a "fuss", a "normal" person dressing up like a nazi to go to a fancy dress party would probably get a well-deserved kicking or at the very least be booed and jeered and shamed into seclusion for the next two weeks.

Unless he was going to a neonazi-only meeting, of course.

I'd understand if he was 14. At 20 you're supposed to be a bit less clueless and stupid. Obviously growing up so privileged means no one tells you when you're being a moron!

Anyway. At least he had the sense not to add moustaches... ! Here's one of the other highly sensitive fancy dress choices he was considering:

http://www.wobshite.co.uk/b3ta/prince_harry_tidal_wave.jpg

[absolut_mac]

...this morning was reporting that he tried to order a SS uniform but that the costumers didn't have one in his size.

SS Uniform?

Slightly fetishistic and also a little troubling.

Only if he wanted the matching hand-cuffs :rolleyes:

[Lord Blackadder]

They really had it splattered all over CNN last night. One of the anchors was interviewing a Rabbi and asked why there was such a big deal about it since Broadway was currently running Mel Brooks' "The Producers", which featured a musical number called "Springtime for Hitler". The Rabbi answered to the effect that Mel Brooks wasn't an English Prince (there's a thought!), and it was in bad taste anyway. I thought the coverage was a little overdone, though.

Now I hear that Harry is planning to make a trip to Auschwitz to make amends.

BTW, those of you wishing to see Nazi humor in it's proper place, check out the Three Stooges film "I'll never Heil again". Moe plays Hitler, Curly Goering, and Larry Goebbels. It was filmed before America entered the war, and totally rips on Hitler and the axis. The best part was Hitler was known to have watched Stooges shorts, so it is slightly possible that he saw this parody.

Rather off-topic( since most of my sentiments on the matter-at-hand have been mentioned), but I am again reminded of the brilliance of whomever designed the German/Nazi-era uniforms.

Without a doubt, they are the most attractive-looking uniforms ever worn by a country's military forces. Even the swastika was a stroke of design/marketing genius.

I once got in a discussion with a professor about this. We concluded:

German uniforms: Overall best looking, very martial and frightening especially in the case of the black SS uniforms. Paratrooper uniforms had best camo.

Italian uniforms: Excellent style, but too fancy, almost effeminate. Best as a dress uniform.

French Uniforms: They looked like firemen with those helmets, even if Churchill swore by them. Meh.

American: Plain, but well made and functional. fairly boring except for Patton's personal modifications.

British: cf. American for infantry, though their officer's uniforms were probably the best of the allies, until Italy switched sides (nice to have a good tailor about). Best Naval uniforms, though the Germans were close.

Soviets: Well, they certainly LOOKED proletarian. Higher officers had more fruit salad on their chest than anyone except Mussolini or Goering. Very utilitarian.

Japanese: most old-school, with the leggings. Officers carried swords, though.

[Benj]

Diana was the only vaugely human one and she(as they constantly harped on about) was a commoner.(hey I've been up and working for 18 hours) :mad:

Diana - a commoner? Errrm - no.

She was also a toff - Lady Diana Spencer - before she married Charles. If anything, her family is more establishment than the Windsors. She was also a cynical publicity hound.


Nobody seems to have mentioned that the party was themed on "Colonials and Natives" which begs two questions:
1. Isn't this worse (a bit like a "Masters and Slaves" pary in America)?
2. What in god's name was Harry doing dressing as a German soldier?

[hob]

1. Isn't this worse (a bit like a "Masters and Slaves" pary in America)?
2. What in god's name was Harry doing dressing as a German soldier?

1. So he chose to go as "the master race" :rolleyes:
2. Maybe it was a bit of a Bridget Jones moment... He turned up in a Nazi uniform, expecting some kind of Military re-enactment only to be told "oh, didn't anyone call you to tell you we changed the theme?"

Sorry, I know this whole thing's been quite offensive to some people, but it's gettin really old really quick... He's apologised, I think he should be left well alone...

Hob

[railthinner]

I've got to say I don't really care!
It was a fancy dress party!!!!
Would there be a fuss if a 'normal' person went dressed the same?
No!
If the press didn''t blow things totally out of proportion...well they wouldn't sell papers.

I live in Chicago and while I can't speak for everyone here by a long shot... but..... look, if someone showed up wearing that shizzle at the kind of parties I go to he'd be lucky to make it out alive. A sound beating in the press is nothing.

[VincentVega]

It's quite obvious you don't, thanks for your balanced opinion.

Yes, it is my opinion, and no, it wasn't supposed to be balanced. I dislike the Royal Family. I don't think they provide value for money and I think they are an anachronism. Lords of the realm are no longer allowed to sit in the House of Lords (the British second chamber of Parliament, similiar to the U.S. Senate) on the basis of hereditary - it's seen as old fashioned and hence has been abolished. If hereditary Lords are no longer appropriate for 21st century Great Britain, why is a hereditary monarchy? Both are equally steeped in tradition. People should get where they are based on merit, not on the basis of long-dead family members who were favourites of Henry VIII or Elizabeth I, or who their parents happen to be.

When Harry dresses up in Nazi regalia, fights with photographers outside nightclubs, smokes cannabis, I disapprove. When Prince Charles laments the state of the British education system and protests against it giving children what he perceives as ideas above their station, I disapprove. When Prince Phillip makes racist, insensitive comments, I disapprove. When Prince Edward runs a vanity TV production company (losing lots of (presumably taxpayer) money) and interviews his nephew Prince William in violation of a press agreement (which includes his media company) not to harass William, the heir to the throne and his wife makes ill-advised comments to press members who are dressed as Arab sheiks, I object. Ought not they, the Royals, be an example to the rest of us? The Queen never does anything distasteful or stupid. Princess Anne is very well behaved and does a lot for charity. Why can't the male members of the House of Windsor be more like the female ones?

My views are not supposed to be balanced. I did not intend to present them as such. They are tainted by my belief that we should not have a monarchy and should allow the Windsors to live out their existence in private, without the press harrassing them. In addition, my comments were supposed to be light-hearted. I think some readers got that impression. Evidently you did not.


Are you deliberately trying to show how disgusting you can be? Presumably this is humour? It's not like he has attended a dinner in remembrance of the liberation of Auschwitz is it? He was at a private party, and personally in that context I find in very amusing that someone frequently referred to as a Nazi (among other derogatory names) because of his accident of birth, can see beyond the self importance of accidental position.


Errr, no. You really are hypersensitive aren't you (but then again, you find it "amusing" that he prances around wearing a Nazi armband and attends a party called "Colonials and Natives")? I was angry with Prince Harry. I found his action, to coin an expression, "disgusting". I thought he made an unforgivable error of judgement, especially crass when we're about to commemerate the liberation of Auschwitz. Acts committed by the Nazis are still fresh in the minds of many survivors of the death camps, including those of British citizens. The Third Reich was, to my mind, one of the worst eras in human history. I've read a 1600 page two-part biography of Hitler. I've read about the Nazis. I have a copy of "Mein Kampf", a truly hideous, despicable book that I dare not read. I don't believe you should make light of the atrocities committed by the Nazis, especially if you are an heir to the throne, supposedly a responsible, mature adult who provides leadership and inspiration for millions of Britains and other people across the world. Prince Harry showed an alarming naivity in his actions. I hope he learns something from them and becomes a better person. Whether he does remains to be seen. I hope he goes to Auschwitz with the British delegation and takes some time to learn what happened and reflect upon it.


You're out for one thing and that's blood. What would you say to his family after you had personally lined him up, blindfolded, against the wall and shown no sympathy at all? Would you pull the trigger or would you order someone else to do it?


No. I'm out for responsible behaviour from our so-called "betters". Harry and his family should behave in an appropriate manner for members of a monarchy. He does not do that. As for the rest of your comment, I have already mentioned I wrote in the heat of the moment. I do not believe Prince Harry (or any of the Royals) should be shot. I believe in a peaceful transition to a republic and allowing the Royal Family to live in peace. Do you ever have the red mist descend, when you're particularly riled by something and happen to write something that you would not, in normal circumstances do? Are you really that perfect? Sure, maybe it was a bit over the top, but what's done is done.

We live in a free society. I am entitled to my views. You are entitled to yours. Each person's views are just as valid. You may not like my opinions. So be it.

Will you be admonishing Peterkro for his "hang 'em from the lampposts in front of the Apple Store" comment? I look forward to reading your views on that post.

Apologies to Kettle and all for the length of this rebuttal.

[virividox]

hey guys just to remind you, its okay to have diff views on the royals and harrys actions lets keep it civil now, no need to attack each other if somoene doesnt agree with your opinion. we dont want to get wastelanded or even banned :D

[Mechcozmo]

BTW, those of you wishing to see Nazi humor in it's proper place, check out the Three Stooges film "I'll never Heil again". Moe plays Hitler, Curly Goering, and Larry Goebbels. It was filmed before America entered the war, and totally rips on Hitler and the axis. The best part was Hitler was known to have watched Stooges shorts, so it is slightly possible that he saw this parody.

Moe was actually placed on Hitler's death list for that one. Apparently, Hitler wasn't too fond of the Stooges although he knew of them.

[Benj]

1. So he chose to go as "the master race" :rolleyes:
2. Maybe it was a bit of a Bridget Jones moment... He turned up in a Nazi uniform, expecting some kind of Military re-enactment only to be told "oh, didn't anyone call you to tell you we changed the theme?"

Sorry, I know this whole thing's been quite offensive to some people, but it's gettin really old really quick... He's apologised, I think he should be left well alone...

Hob

I agree - if the Board of Jewish Deputies can accept the apology and move on then I don't see why the media can't.

Hilarious quote earlier from someone saying British soldiers died to protect our freedoms and this is a big insult etc etc. Errrm - wouldn't one of those freedoms be to act like a pillock?

For me the irony is that the biggest critics of Harry are the usually guardedly anti-semitic left-wing media (Grauniad, Indie, BBC) who never miss a chance to try and nail Israel. Oh well.

[Sol]

To everyone here pointing their fingers at Prince Harry and saying 'How awful' I have to ask this: have you played Medal of Honour or Call of Duty and selected to fight for the 'Axis' online? If the answer is yes then you have no right to think yourself better than Prince Harry.

This is a press-created scandal. They took a photograph out of context (a military-themed fancy dress party) and printed it on their front pages next to big letter headlines. Is it any surprise that Jewish organisations and Israel are upset about this? No, of course not. Would they be equally upset if the story was about Prince Harry playing as an 'Axis' soldier in Medal Of Honour? You can bet on it.

Prince Harry is not the anti-semite the media has made him out to be. Dressing up as a Nazi in a fancy dress party does not say anything substantial about his political opinions. Likewise, attending a fancy dress party wearing the Scream mask does not make you a serial killer, but it would upset anyone who has been affected by such a killer as much as Jews are upset about the costume Prince Harry wore.

Royal scandals like this are politically motivated. In England a lot of people resent the Monarchy and stories like this give them the opportunity to express their opinions.

[spikeovsky]

It's amazing that any (non-Nazi) members of the western world would still consider wearing a Nazi outfit not to be in anything but incredibly bad taste. On the other hand, it's amazing what you see people wearing in places where the Nazis were never really an issue:

http://www.brezhnev.net/media/misc/macauguy.jpg

Yes, that says "White Power", and yes, that guy is Chinese. I took that photo (a bit blurry because I needed to take it quickly before the guy disappeared) in Macau over the summer - the guy was just walking around, and no one seemed to notice or care what he was wearing.

There's a Hong Kong clothing company called "http://www.izzue.com/" that, about a year or two ago, decided to do a series of military-inspired designs. They did US Army Rangers, then went straight to WWII Germany. Their stores were decorated with giant swastika banners and most of their clothes had some sort of Nazi insignia on them. The Israeli and German consulates were both *very* unimpressed, and demanded the company stop selling the clothes. The company's response was "the only people who care a foreigners", and only after a week or two of haranguing did they switch their designs to something else.

I'm sure some day I'll hear a report of some poor Hong Kong teenager getting beaten up after wearing his Nazi gear, quite unaware of its meaning, on an overseas trip.

[virividox]

It's amazing that any (non-Nazi) members of the western world would still consider wearing a Nazi outfit not to be in anything but incredibly bad taste. On the other hand, it's amazing what you see people wearing in places where the Nazis were never really an issue:

http://www.brezhnev.net/media/misc/macauguy.jpg

Yes, that says "White Power", and yes, that guy is Chinese. I took that photo (a bit blurry because I needed to take it quickly before the guy disappeared) in Macau over the summer - the guy was just walking around, and no one seemed to notice or care what he was wearing.

There's a Hong Kong clothing company called "http://www.izzue.com/" that, about a year or two ago, decided to do a series of military-inspired designs. They did US Army Rangers, then went straight to WWII Germany. Their stores were decorated with giant swastika banners and most of their clothes had some sort of Nazi insignia on them. The Israeli and German consulates were both *very* unimpressed, and demanded the company stop selling the clothes. The company's response was "the only people who care a foreigners", and only after a week or two of haranguing did they switch their designs to something else.

I'm sure some day I'll hear a report of some poor Hong Kong teenager getting beaten up after wearing his Nazi gear, quite unaware of its meaning, on an overseas trip.

its unfortunate that some people arent senstive, i wouldnt dare wear any thing like that ever.

[Counterfit]

Moe was actually placed on Hitler's death list for that one. Apparently, Hitler wasn't too fond of the Stooges although he knew of them. I have to see that! :D

And on the Producers, Springtime for Hitler was the name of the musical produced by the main characters (played by Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder in the movie). The audience was disgusted, until "Hitler" came on stage. For those who haven't seen it, just try to imagine this: Hitler, speaking like a hippy. ;)

As for the "royal" family, we got rid of that problem 230 or so years ago, and look where it's gotten us :D



oh **** look where it's gotten us :(

[virividox]

on a side note i loved the play the producers.

if you were harrys parents, on in this case dad what would you make him do as punishment.
actually i think that the apology and visiting the camp are pretty good punishments.

[Peterkro]

To everyone here pointing their fingers at Prince Harry and saying 'How awful' I have to ask this: have you played Medal of Honour or Call of Duty and selected to fight for the 'Axis' online? If the answer is yes then you have no right to think yourself better than Prince Harry.

This is a press-created scandal. They took a photograph out of context (a military-themed fancy dress party) and printed it on their front pages next to big letter headlines. Is it any surprise that Jewish organisations and Israel are upset about this? No, of course not. Would they be equally upset if the story was about Prince Harry playing as an 'Axis' soldier in Medal Of Honour? You can bet on it.

Prince Harry is not the anti-semite the media has made him out to be. Dressing up as a Nazi in a fancy dress party does not say anything substantial about his political opinions. Likewise, attending a fancy dress party wearing the Scream mask does not make you a serial killer, but it would upset anyone who has been affected by such a killer as much as Jews are upset about the costume Prince Harry wore.

Royal scandals like this are politically motivated. In England a lot of people resent the Monarchy and stories like this give them the opportunity to express their opinions.

I haven't seen any reports calling him anti-semitic(at least in the broadsheets in U.K.) they are just pointing out what a ignorant twat he is.As several people pointed out what sort of people have a colonist and native themed party,These people dont live in the real world.By the way that photo was taken by one of his yahoo mates and touted round the tabloids with the Sun buying it and then flogging the rights around the world.So the dirty digger is the main player.

[kettle]

In addition, my comments were supposed to be light-hearted. I think some readers got that impression. Evidently you did not. ditto. Which must mean your bit about - There are lots of other Royals as well, but no-one really cares about them. They are hardly worth writing about. So I won't. was humorously untrue too.
Which perhaps indicates that more than your politics would like there to be, actually care about the royal family.


My biggest worry is when people forget what allowed the "holocaust" or any of the "other holocaust" to happen. It's a dynamic usually propagated by the controlling media of the day. The controlling media starts to make rules which stop people from thinking for themselves.

35 million people voted for the nazi party, and that was just second position, it seems quite obvious to me if people got out of the habbit of doing something because someone else is doing it. The powers that make it inappropriate to make reference to the nazis in any way but the "proper" way, have the same dynamics that will allow the next despicable abuse of popular consent.

Of all people I think those of greater influence should show people how to think outside the "proper" box. It is exactly this sort of behavior that makes him better than those who just follow the "correct" behaviour.

If you want to analyse it, Harry has done a good thing by making people approach the subject from another angle, deliberate or not, any strike against the feeble minded who "do what they're told" is a good thing, even at the expense of consideration to victims of holocaust.

How could so few bad people control the will of so many supposedly "indifferent" people.

In terms of "political correctness", the ideals of PC are admirable, but until people actually learn and know why they need to have PC ideals, all we are doing is training a huge number of people to "do what they're told". (a very dangerous weapon to leave lying around)

I think many people are kicking Harry because it furthers their political opinions. I think these people know something is wrong with what Harry did but for all their reasoning can't think why it is actually wrong. Worse than that they will not spare a moment to wonder why Harry is exactly the sort of person who should do this.

Apologies to Kettle and all for the length of this rebuttal.
your sincerest... :rolleyes: ..apologies accepted.

[spikeovsky]

its unfortunate that some people arent senstive, i wouldnt dare wear any thing like that ever.
I'm not sure it's a matter of that guy being insensitive - the fact that he was a Chinese guy wearing a "white power" shirt in a Chinese city suggests he thought it looked cool and had no idea what it was about. I'm not inclined to assume that it was intended as an ironic reference, since that sort of irony doesn't really exist in China the way it does in the west.

[iGav]

I haven't seen any reports calling him anti-semitic(at least in the broadsheets in U.K.) they are just pointing out what a ignorant twat he is.

Exactly... ;)

[Mechcozmo]

actually i think that the apology and visiting the camp are pretty good punishments.

Visiting a death camp shouldn't be a punishment. It shouldn't be something like "Oh, I did something bad so daddy made me go here." It should be a visit that makes you really think at what evil there is. There are still scratches in the walls, made with their own fingernails, in the rooms where people were tortured. You can see a pile of ash there, dozens of feet tall.

I'm not attacking you, I just wanted to point this out.

[virividox]

Visiting a death camp shouldn't be a punishment. It shouldn't be something like "Oh, I did something bad so daddy made me go here." It should be a visit that makes you really think at what evil there is. There are still scratches in the walls, made with their own fingernails, in the rooms where people were tortured. You can see a pile of ash there, dozens of feet tall.

I'm not attacking you, I just wanted to point this out.

if he is really sincere about going, then i think its a good thing. i mean if you think about it what he did was stupid, not necessarily wrong/criminal.

[3Memos]

To err is human, to forgive, divine. He apologized, end of thread, nothing to see here.

[Xtremehkr]

Just think of all of things the UK would be able to do if it wasn't subsidizing the Royal Family?

If they disappeared tomorrow, would anything really change?

William is very photogenic, but really, what is he going to do for anything?

Royalty in Europe are like a third nipple, interesting, but completely worthless really.

[kettle]

Just think of all of things the UK would be able to do if it wasn't subsidizing the Royal Family?

Probably subsidising an even larger less controllable bureaucracy in its place.

The good thing about a Monarchy is it has a lot less avenues of corruption than regular representatives of power. I think it's quite cost effective compared to other systems.

I wonder how may people would actually like another "House" in our monarchy rather than an end of Monarchy.

[spikeovsky]

Probably subsidising an even larger less controllable bureaucracy in its place.

The good thing about a Monarchy is it has a lot less avenues of corruption than regular representatives of power. I think it's quite cost effective compared to other systems.

I wonder how may people would actually like another "House" in our monarchy rather than an end of Monarchy.

I agree - if the Monarchy were to be abandoned, it's not like something wouldn't have to be created to fill in the vacuum. And anyway, she's my [Canada's] Queen too, so you'd better not get rid of her without asking!

[virividox]

Probably subsidising an even larger less controllable bureaucracy in its place.

The good thing about a Monarchy is it has a lot less avenues of corruption than regular representatives of power. I think it's quite cost effective compared to other systems.

I wonder how may people would actually like another "House" in our monarchy rather than an end of Monarchy.

would you even need to replace the monarchy? iv heard arguments for just abandoning the monarchy without replacement.

maybe in the future, but certainly not over this :)

[brap]

I wonder how may people would actually like another "House" in our monarchy rather than an end of Monarchy.
To do so would spell the end of our constitution (it is simply not allowed, even after 1689), and render those in place privileged governmental puppets. King Anthony the first, if you will.

Which would you rather pay for, hm?

[MOFS]

Just think of all of things the UK would be able to do if it wasn't subsidizing the Royal Family?

If they disappeared tomorrow, would anything really change?

William is very photogenic, but really, what is he going to do for anything?

Royalty in Europe are like a third nipple, interesting, but completely worthless really.

I agree partly with your statement about the royals, but only to a degree. I would have no problem with them if they were in touch with their people (eg the Spanish royal family, who sent their children to state schools) or approached their populace with dignity (the Dutch royal family). I get exceedingly pissed off by Charles' disdain of modern Britain, William's constant snobbishness ("lets go to university and become head-honcho of St Andrew's Royal Golf Club") or Harry's persistent stupidity. This is probably the first time the press have let rip at Harry despite various misdimeanours, and hopefully this pulls the entire Royal Family out of their glass coccoon and into the real world. Only Anne has shown any sense of sense, and perhaps Fergie and Andrew by trying to remain together for the kids, but I for one wouldn't be unhappy if they suddenly all left the country. :mad:

[Jimong5]

I don't have that much of a problem with it, because i see there's a natural distain against the NAZI party, mainly because they were our enemy. I found this about our great allies in WWII, the soviets.

The monstrous Union of Soviet Socialist Republics killed 62 million people, three times as many millions of people as did the National Socialist German Workers' Party (21 million). However, any Google news search on any date will show similar results to the random date above: that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is referenced 486 times, or one-twelfth the number of times (5,740) of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.* The use of the full phrase "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" is once in every five uses of the abbreviation "U.S.S.R."* The use of the full phrase "National Socialist German Workers' Party" is once in every 1900 uses of the abbreviation "Nazi."

I'm willing to bet that if he went in a soviet uniform, the uproar would have been non-existant, even though stalin killed more, started a 40 year cold war, the korean war, the vietnam war, and now is responsible for installing north korea, a nuclear enabled place with no respect for its citizens.

oh, but he was our ally in WWII. thats ok.

[MOFS]

I don't have that much of a problem with it, because i see there's a natural distain against the NAZI party, mainly because they were our enemy. I found this about our great allies in WWII, the soviets.



I'm willing to bet that if he went in a soviet uniform, the uproar would have been non-existant, even though stalin killed more, started a 40 year cold war, the korean war, the vietnam war, and now is responsible for installing north korea, a nuclear enabled place with no respect for its citizens.

oh, but he was our ally in WWII. thats ok.

Actually, I believe the main thing is that the Nazis instigated a ruthless genocide of not just the Jews, but also homosexuals, gypsies, the mentally handicapped and the deformed, to say the least. At this point of time, at approximately the 60th anniversary of the closing of Auchwitz, for anyone of any political importance (however small or young) to be doing something that makes a mockery of these facts is seen to be doing something horrific.

Perosonally I don't think anyone should dress up as any mad dictator (Stalin, Hitler - even Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden) at a fancy dress party. As a decent part of satire, maybe, but I wouldn't say dressing up as a nazi is fancy dress.

[iMurc]

Well, Harry seems like the type of person who would say that famous German Saying "Erzähl mir keine Märchen" that means: "Don't pi$$ down my back and tell me it's raining!"... He just simply has no common seances when it comes to things like that... That was total in appropriate and you'd think that a person such as him would know better... Well, I will admit I too have done complete dumb things too, but well not something that dumb.

Well, it seems he has "dran glauben müssen" (he has his "@$$ on the line") with some very important people... I still can not believe that one would not know something line that is not only politicly incorrect but complete dumb.

[njmac]

The royal family is NOT supported by taxpayers, they haven't been for some time now.

On the other hand, they bring in tens of millions of dollars for England (tourist related)

[Xtremehkr]

What exactly do the royal family do? They've done a good job of preserving themselves but constantly prove that they are all too human.

Just look at Prince Phillip, despite the titles, uniforms and supposed good breeding, the guy is a complete ass.

[Xtremehkr]

The royal family is NOT supported by taxpayers, they haven't been for some time now.

On the other hand, they bring in tens of millions of dollars for England (tourist related)

No? (http://www.btinternet.com/~brentours/ROYAL32.htm)

According to the same link though they generate more than they cost as a tourist attraction. That's kind of sad in a way.

[Blue Velvet]

On the other hand, they bring in tens of millions of dollars for England (tourist related)

People come here for the history and the sights. If there wasn't a monarch in Buckingham Palace people would still queue to see it... don't people tour the White House? No royals there...

But more importantly, this is not an valid argument for deciding upon a system of government and society...

[rogerw]

come the day of the revolution!

[Xtremehkr]

Yeah, I doubt it would matter whether there are Royals there or not. Hearst Castle was interesting without W.R. being there.

[Mechcozmo]

if he is really sincere about going, then i think its a good thing. i mean if you think about it what he did was stupid, not necessarily wrong/criminal.

I know that he did a stupid thing. I know he apologized. But if he just looks at this as punishment, as a stupid trip dad is making him do, then that is wrong on so many levels. If he goes to the death camps with a more open mind than he did that party, and he really sees what went on there, then thats good. That shows that he understands something. But if he goes to whatever death camp it is and makes a comment, he will catch so much hell for it.

[rainman::|:|]

okay, while i'll agree that this was a pretty stupid thing to do, i don't think it's worth raking him over the coals for. He made a bad decision, but kept out of the military academy? i may not be jewish, but i am gay, and a lot of my people were murdered in those same concentration camps... but quite frankly, i don't know what Harry was thinking, and i don't know the circumstances. Perhaps in proper context, he meant no disrespect at all. That's what seems to be missing, intent. If he had appeared on national television, instead of a private party, wearing such an outfit, sure he'd be trying to cause trouble.

As i recall, the problem with the Nazi's wasn't their uniforms; it was the mass slaughtering. Until Harry advocates that, I don't think the guy should be punished.

And I'm deeply troubled by the calls for a ban on nazi symbols in Europe. How much artwork will be rendered illegal because of a kneejerk reaction? Surely there are bigger anti-sematic issues to be dealt with than mere symbolism...

[Blue Velvet]

....Surely there are bigger anti-sematic issues to be dealt with than mere symbolism...

Symbols are the most potent carrier of ideas.

The words, the very letters that you read at this moment are all symbols.
The dreams you have at night are expressed symbols.

Language is symbolism – the sounds you make with your mouth are audible representations of your ideas...

Sorry for getting carried away – but any designer knows the value of symbols... the phrase 'rallying around the flag' means a lot...

And this is what Harry was messing with...

[rainman::|:|]

Symbols are the most potent carrier of ideas.

The words, the very letters that you read at this moment are all symbols.
The dreams you have at night are expressed symbols.

Language is symbolism – the sounds you make with your mouth are audible representations of your ideas...

Sorry for getting carried away – but any designer knows the value of symbols... the phrase 'rallying around the flag' means a lot...

And this is what Harry was messing with...

At least in the US, the current situation aside, we know that in order to maintain a free society, symbols (and moreso the ideas that they represent) shouldn't be punishable... actions should. Why not spend this energy combatting the anti-sematism that's so widely reported in France, rather than squabbling about a private party that shouldn't have even been public.

How many of us here have done things that, if broadcast on national news, would convey an image much more sinister than originally intended? I know he has to be held to a higher standard, because he's a powerless figurehead (ok, that might be a cheapshot) but if there's one thing that family has shown us, it's that even royalty makes embarassing mistakes from time to time. I don't think it's fair to bar him from entering the academy because of a childish blunder... A lot of 20-year-old princes have done a lot worse...

[Blue Velvet]

I don't think it's fair to bar him from entering the academy because of a childish blunder... A lot of 20-year-old princes have done a lot worse...

I've never argued for that. I'm just trying to attempt an explanation as to why so many people have become upset...

These symbols have a power, a potency that touches people deeply. Someone in that position (and more importantly, his advisers) should have made him aware of this.

To me, it demonstrates an insensitivity and a crass ignorance that is reprehensible in someone who has had access to the best education & upbringing that money & privilege could buy...

I can just imagine the delight on the face of BNP members when they saw that photo -- I mean it hardly counts as a condemnation, does it?

[takao]

And I'm deeply troubled by the calls for a ban on nazi symbols in Europe. How much artwork will be rendered illegal because of a kneejerk reaction? Surely there are bigger anti-sematic issues to be dealt with than mere symbolism...

hm the banning laws which are in place here and in germany are not that easy like "every use of the swastika is forbidden"

while walking through the streets waving a NS-flag is asking for trouble... using it in historical sense like theather acts concering with that time is allowed ... same with other forms of art

it is more a law against glorification of "the third reich"

the NSADP, all it's suborganization etc. are forbidden since when ? 1945-46 ? not only those groups alone but also any organizations which sympatisize with their ideals goals et. are forbidden as well etc.

the bureau responisble for police etc. has an online form to inform them about propaganda websites etc. just like they have a form about child-pornography

(and as far as i know US host providers are still making problems with taking down homepages made illegally made by austrians)

[Peterkro]

Diana - a commoner? Errrm - no.

She was also a toff - Lady Diana Spencer - before she married Charles. If anything, her family is more establishment than the Windsors. She was also a cynical publicity hound.


Nobody seems to have mentioned that the party was themed on "Colonials and Natives" which begs two questions:
1. Isn't this worse (a bit like a "Masters and Slaves" pary in America)?
2. What in god's name was Harry doing dressing as a German soldier?

This is a bit of a tricky one.Diana was a commoner although also a aristorcrat.The history of Europe is such that the monarchy usually only married other members(hence the interbreeding).Although she was a member of a old family she is still a commoner(a fact as I said the royal family harked on about Ad Nausuem).Only titled royalty are noncommoners.(sorry if this is obscure, but it is nevertheless true). .For instance, Lady Diana Spencer was a commoner of noble birth. Her father was the Viscount Althorp and 8th Earl of Spencer.

[clayj]

I'm not only disturbed by Prince Harry's moronic action (and that's what it was, moronic), but also by the kneejerk reaction that the EU is proposing with respect to a total ban on all Nazi periphernalia.

Don't get me wrong... I think the Nazis were by far the worst people (or almost so) ever to walk the face of the Earth. But since none of the nations in the EU have an equivalent to the US' First Amendment (as far as I know), it seems like the PC (politically correct) Thought Police are about to gain some traction over in Europe.

Makes me glad to be an American and live in the United States, where I have the right to make as big an ass of myself as I want and I only have to put up with the ridicule I create for myself. :)

[3Memos]

Has anyone seen the skit on SNL? They had a home movie of Harry making out with a Nazi dominatrix sporting a Hitler-style moustache. Then we see Harry socializing with his brother, who was wearing a KKK headdress. I'll leave it to you if you found it funny. ;)

[takao]

I'm not only disturbed by Prince Harry's moronic action (and that's what it was, moronic), but also by the kneejerk reaction that the EU is proposing with respect to a total ban on all Nazi periphernalia.

Don't get me wrong... I think the Nazis were by far the worst people (or almost so) ever to walk the face of the Earth. But since none of the nations in the EU have an equivalent to the US' First Amendment (as far as I know), it seems like the PC (politically correct) Thought Police are about to gain some traction over in Europe.

Makes me glad to be an American and live in the United States, where I have the right to make as big an ass of myself as I want and I only have to put up with the ridicule I create for myself. :)

hm such laws are in place the only difference (for free speech) is that if your accountable if your "speech" is breaking laws like the law against "Volksverhetzung" (aka. "systematic hate speech" against minorites etc.) for example... such laws were made because of the lessons learned from history (and mostly during times were the _occupiers_ decided over the laws anyways ;) )

[virividox]

Has anyone seen the skit on SNL? They had a home movie of Harry making out with a Nazi dominatrix sporting a Hitler-style moustache. Then we see Harry socializing with his brother, who was wearing a KKK headdress. I'll leave it to you if you found it funny. ;)

i guess il dl it now that u mentioned.

[Counterfit]

This is a bit of a tricky one.Diana was a commoner although also a aristorcrat.The history of Europe is such that the monarchy usually only married other members(hence the interbreeding).Although she was a member of a old family she is still a commoner(a fact as I said the royal family harked on about Ad Nausuem).Only titled royalty are noncommoners.(sorry if this is obscure, but it is nevertheless true). .For instance, Lady Diana Spencer was a commoner of noble birth. Her father was the Viscount Althorp and 8th Earl of Spencer. We have it much simpler over here. This is what you need to know about that major players in American politics that are/were related: John Adams was John Quincy Adams' father. Theodore (Teddy) Roosevelt and Franklin Delano Roosevelt: cousins. John F Kennedy (president), Robert F Kennedy (Attorney General, senator, presidential candidate) and Edward (Ted) Kennedy (senator) were brothers (Ted's still alive though ;)). Also, Patrick Kennedy is a Representative from Rhode Island (my district even), and is Ted's son. There are plenty more of them though :rolleyes: . Then there's George Herbert Walker Bush, and his sons Jeb (Governor of Florida) and George W (some guy.... ;)). That's pretty much it here. Er, anything I missed?

[whooleytoo]

At least in the US, the current situation aside, we know that in order to maintain a free society, symbols (and moreso the ideas that they represent) shouldn't be punishable... actions should. Why not spend this energy combatting the anti-sematism that's so widely reported in France, rather than squabbling about a private party that shouldn't have even been public.

Agree wholeheartedly, all sense of perspective seems to have been lost in this issue. I found the 'hope Harry dies' messages particularly interesting. It means nothing what he wore at a fancy dress party (now, there's a clue), unless anyone has evidence of anti-semitism or other racism on his part, this would seem like a knee-jerk reaction to me.

[MongoTheGeek]

We have it much simpler over here. This is what you need to know about that major players in American politics that are/were related: John Adams was John Quincy Adams' father. Theodore (Teddy) Roosevelt and Franklin Delano Roosevelt: cousins. John F Kennedy (president), Robert F Kennedy (Attorney General, senator, presidential candidate) and Edward (Ted) Kennedy (senator) were brothers (Ted's still alive though ;)). Also, Patrick Kennedy is a Representative from Rhode Island (my district even), and is Ted's son. There are plenty more of them though :rolleyes: . Then there's George Herbert Walker Bush, and his sons Jeb (Governor of Florida) and George W (some guy.... ;)). That's pretty much it here. Er, anything I missed?

Yeah. A few. Kennedy's niece is married to the governor of cali-forn-ya. :). His father was a kingmaker back in the 30s. Brother-in-law ran for Veep in '72.

[TimDaddy]

I can't say much about that. My white wife and her black friend, Shaneen, seriously considered going out as master and slave last year. After reminding my wife that she is carrying my child and has no right to get her killed, she decided to wait until a time when she is no longer with child. Whew! I think if they are going to do it, though, they should reverse it and let my wife be the white slave.

Actually, Harry is an idiot. I mean, my wife isn't a prince or famous or anything. So, Harry is far more demented than my wife.

[Peterkro]

Heres a link to an article that came out around 3rd of december which astounds me 45% of brits(adult) haven't heard about death camps.

http://globalfire.tv/nj/04en/history/auschwitz.htm

this is abetter link to the Telegraph story
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/03/nausch03.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/03/ixhome.html

[kdawg]

It was a Freaking costume for a PARTY!!! So he went as an image that had tried to destroy an entire race and take over the world... sounds rather roman in a way.... Would you rather that we burry any trace of this image so that it is forgotton!?!?! The dude should be able to dress as the pope for all I care.... Remember it's a COSTUME PARTY... Good on him for making a statement... At least he got a reaction.

[Mechcozmo]

It was a Freaking costume for a PARTY!!! So he went as an image that had tried to destroy an entire race and take over the world... sounds rather roman in a way....

Yeah, he wore an image that tried to destroy my religion (not race, there is a distinction between the two). I don't exactly look kindly on people that massacre others, especially kin. And not to mention the 5 million additional people that were murdered. 6 million Jews (1 million children) + 5 million Gay/Lesbian/Gypsies/Political Enemies/Unwanted = 11 million. Not good.



Would you rather that we burry any trace of this image so that it is forgotton!?!?!

History repeats itself unless we learn from it. If we forget it, then we repeat it. Thus, we should always remember what happened during the Holocaust so that we don't repeat it.

[Peterkro]

Mechcozmo,I fully agree with your post.One interesting fact is that nobody knows how many Gypsies died.I've seen academics put the total as high as 5 million.Because of their lifestyle nobody even knows how many there were.Nice distinction between religon and race by the way.