12" powerbook too small after a while?

[Southbridge]

choosing between the "15 and the "12 powerbook... what should I go with?

[Platform]

15" defnetly if you can afford it :rolleyes:
Because it has the 3" more screen + it is a widescreen.
2 RAM slot's vs one solderd to the board.
Better GPU and option for 128MB VRAM
80GB HDD standard
Gigabit ethernet
Illuminated keyboard
DVI vs mini DVI port (you have to have an adaptor=clutter)

Can't think of any more ;)

[mcgarry]

I agree with Platform. The only reasons to prefer the 12" are if you really want something smaller than the 15" to carry around, better battery life, and of course to save money. Those can be good reasons, but by the specs the 15" is nicer.

As for the title of this thread, I have been pleased with my 12" screen. I have a 17" monitor to go with it, but I have used it far less than I thought I would. I guess it depends on what you do. Exposé helps.

[anotherjeff]

I've had my 12 for about 4-5 months now and I was worried that it would be too small. I'm really happy with the size. I carry it with me to law school everyday and I'm probably using it for about 4-6 hours a day. The small weight and size is really important for me. When you do need a portable computer, you will probably want one that's really portable (the 12). No buyer's remorse here.

However, if you are going to be doing a lot of photoshop or FCP I would consider a bigger more powerful computer or at least another monitor to enjoy the benefits of the dual screen. I do the occasional dreamweaver and photoshop work but it's not enough to need more screen.

The 12" rev. C also runs Halo really well.

[hechacker1]

yeah, i've been debatting the same thing. I have 4+ years of college ahead of me and I see a lot of use out of my next laptop. My campus is huge, it takes me about 30 minuets of fast walking (the speed of jogging for some people) to get across the campus.

The 12" seems nice, but the 15 has more options, and the lit keyboard is a really cool feature (especially in class rooms that are dimmed for presentations). When I was in the store trying them out, it seemed like the 12" could even fit easily in a backpack. I doubt you can do the same with the 15"

This will be my first mac, i hope. But I think I am going to wait for Tiger to come out because i don't feel like paying $69 (student discount) for a service pack/update. Yes, I know it adds features, but I don't see it worth the $129 that some people will have to pay.

Does any body else have input on the size of the machine?

[Maxiseller]

I've actually owned a 15" Ti Powerbook, and am now selling it because I want somthing smaller to carry around with me while I am at uni.

It's not so much the weight (The Al Powerbooks are much lighter nowadays) but the sheer size of it in a bag! The 12" is much more compact, and at the end of the day you can always link it to a nice 23" Cinema Display if you're prepared to re-mortgage the house to get one!

Go with the 12" if size is the issue. The build quality is literally second to none, and it's portable, stunning and lightweight little machine along with a fantastic battery life.

[mad jew]

If you decide on a 12 inch screen size, have a look at the iBooks too, they're heaps better value. However, the 15 inch PowerBook is much much better than the 12 inch spec-wise.

[Santaduck]

Remember that even if you think size isn't your top priority, you almost certainly will bring it with you much much more often just because it is that much more portable. People on the go (professionals as well as students) will often love the 12" for that very reason, and would never use the larger ones. A desktop replacement, it is not, and you can't really have it both ways (uberlight/small + top specs), whether Win or Apple.

[Chip NoVaMac]

The 12" is a good balance between size and power IMO. I have a rev. B that I ran PS and InDesign on for business purposes. Add an external monitor (I am driving a Dell 2001FP on mine) and keyboard/mouse and you are set (the Dell have a USB hub - 4 ports).

[Platform]

The 12" is a good balance between size and power IMO. I have a rev. B that I ran PS and InDesign on for business purposes. Add an external monitor (I am driving a Dell 2001FP on mine) and keyboard/mouse and you are set (the Dell have a USB hub - 4 ports).

So are you using your 12" as a desktop replacement or 2nd computer

[munkle]

I've got the 12" and am a big fan. It's easy to transport, which was a big consideration for me, and when I'm not using it on the go I plug in an external monitor/external keyboard/external mouse and use it like a dual screen desktop. That ability alone is why I'd recommend the PB over the iBook, even with the hack.

Basically it comes down to how important portability is too you (those extra 3" make a surprising difference) and how much screen real estate you need whilst on the go. The other benefits are nice, such as backlit keyboard, but can hardly be considered a deal breaker.

[BakedBeans]

it all depends on how your going to be using it. if it your main computer then there is no real point getting a 12 inch, a 15 is amazing - fantastic screen, however - if youve got a desktop then a 12 is perfect

[Chip NoVaMac]

So are you using your 12" as a desktop replacement or 2nd computer

Sort of both.

It was a desktop replacement before my other half gave up on the eMac that we bought as a backup for my PB 12" (since I did DTP, I could not "afford" any downtime). The PB was the first and only computer for about 6 months or so. So I connected it to an "old" 17" and did the spanning.

I then added a 20" Dell to the PB and was using that pretty exclusively till I was given a VGA adapter for the eMac. With the Dell I can switch between VGA/DVI. Now that I have had a job change, the eMac is now primary and the PB is secondary.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I've had a 12" (iBook, but still...) for more than a year, before that I used a Pismo with a 14" (same resolution as the current 12"). The screen hasn't felt too small, ever. The only thing too small is the HD, which seems to shrink... ;) I got the 60 GB BTO and even after some serious house cleaning I just have ~7 GB free (was down under 2 for a while). The screen is just fine, Expose makes it very easy to work on "small surfaces"... :)

[dotdotdot]

Sort of both.

It was a desktop replacement before my other half gave up on the eMac that we bought as a backup for my PB 12" (since I did DTP, I could not "afford" any downtime). The PB was the first and only computer for about 6 months or so. So I connected it to an "old" 17" and did the spanning.

I then added a 20" Dell to the PB and was using that pretty exclusively till I was given a VGA adapter for the eMac. With the Dell I can switch between VGA/DVI. Now that I have had a job change, the eMac is now primary and the PB is secondary.

You know how you got the dock on the 2nd screen as well as the apple bar thingy? if you unplug the PowerBook does it go on the 1st screen?

---

I think the 12" is the better deal, this is why:

If you have a 19" monitor like i do and many other people do, you can use that externally. The mini DVI actually takes LESS clutter, as it is a smaller cable.

It is less expensive for a great computer

It is very portable.

[Chip NoVaMac]

You know how you got the dock on the 2nd screen as well as the apple bar thingy? if you unplug the PowerBook does it go on the 1st screen?


I set up the 20" as the "primary" and then "arranged" the PB screen to be on the bottom. The dock just seemed to follow.

Note: I just tried it on the eMac setup I am using, and the dock moved to the bottom.

[Rubin421]

If you're going to be carrying it around, don't hesitate a single second: go for the 12". That's the one I got. It's not that small, and it's so light!
If you want a bigger screen, you can always plug it to an external monitor when at home...
In my view, the 12" PB is just the best laptop available on the market.

[h0e0h]

yeah, i've been debatting the same thing. I have 4+ years of college ahead of me and I see a lot of use out of my next laptop. My campus is huge, it takes me about 30 minuets of fast walking (the speed of jogging for some people) to get across the campus.

The 12" seems nice, but the 15 has more options, and the lit keyboard is a really cool feature (especially in class rooms that are dimmed for presentations). When I was in the store trying them out, it seemed like the 12" could even fit easily in a backpack. I doubt you can do the same with the 15"

This will be my first mac, i hope. But I think I am going to wait for Tiger to come out because i don't feel like paying $69 (student discount) for a service pack/update. Yes, I know it adds features, but I don't see it worth the $129 that some people will have to pay.

Does any body else have input on the size of the machine?

Well guy, to be honest with you most undergrads don't take their laptops to class anyway... from my observation, so the backlit keyboard would not really be much of a factor. Besides, the screen provides ample light on the keys to see them, and if you know how to type you don't look at them anyway.

As far as it fitting in a backpack, i got a PowerSleeve from Radtech.US and i slide my 12" in that sleeve and then into my backpack and i'm rollin out the door. It's the perfect size. Now if you're going to be doing video work like me, I recommend the superdrive, plenty of DVD-Rs and DVD+Rs, maybe an external HD, and a CRT monitor if you have the space (because its better for video editing). Right now i have a 17" LCD hooked up to a KVM switch to go between my 12" and my PC and I use that CRT to finalize my video stuff.

I hope this helps... and welcome aboard.

[morkintosh]

choosing between the "15 and the "12 powerbook... what should I go with?

It's not too small until you sit down and work on a 15", then you wonder how you ever used it. Go with the 15".

[stubeeef]

choosing between the "15 and the "12 powerbook... what should I go with?


What will you be using it for?

I have a 12" that I love, you get to be a good expose user! but it just fits the area I use it (kitchen) and is mostly for iTunes (wireless to stero) mail, internet. and occassional iPhoto. I also have an eMac that is mostly for the kids, but I use on occassion, but prefer the 12" over the emac, I don't normally need the extra screenestate.

If you are campus bound, not heavy photoshoper, the 12" will make you happier, you also get more room on the desk in class.

[mcgarry]

If you decide on a 12 inch screen size, have a look at the iBooks too, they're heaps better value. However, the 15 inch PowerBook is much much better than the 12 inch spec-wise.

I'll disagree with the "heaps" part. This comparison was recently discussed at great length here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=109979&page=2&pp=25) among other places (continues over many pages). In short, the 20% retail price difference is well-justified in many if not most cases, unless price is of supreme concern. Especially in terms of FSB speed, HD speed, true clamshell mode, and VRAM, I'm pretty sure that "much much better" applies more to the 12"-12" comparison than 12"-15".

Above I said the 15" is a better computer by the specs, and it is, but I will chime in for the portability of the 12" PB. If supreme portability is a concern, the 12" is the obvious choice. It does fit in almost anything (I use a Tucano second skin to make any bag a laptop bag) and goes almost anywhere with relative ease. Although personally I can't imagine the size of the 15" being that much of a disincentive to take it places, I do not speak from experience.

Again, it all just comes down to your needs/desires: more powerful/more expensive vs. more portable/cheaper.

[Southbridge]

ok... so we're all agreed then!

um... well... I hope to be using photoshop, but at the same time I dont want a desktop replacement, but I dont plan on plugging it into a monitor... Really I'm looking at the 1.5 Ghz "15 vs. the 1.5 Ghz "12 so... I dunno... the specs would be comparable... same HD space... same RAM...

it's really my brother who is like you might feel kinda cramped on the "12 after a while because he himself has a "15...

...then again is it worth the extra $400? (I'm not getting the superdrive...)

[Southbridge]

wait... this may be a dumb question but why is it called a 12" powerbook when the specs on this page:

http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index12.html

show the width as 10.9"? :confused:

[Southbridge]

ok... I figured it out... it's measured on the diagonal...

sorry... talking to myself... :(

[Artful Dodger]

Southbridge
ok... I figured it out... it's measured on the diagonal...

sorry... talking to myself...
I was just about to respond ;)

[CaptainCaveMann]

Sort of both.

It was a desktop replacement before my other half gave up on the eMac that we bought as a backup for my PB 12" (since I did DTP, I could not "afford" any downtime). The PB was the first and only computer for about 6 months or so. So I connected it to an "old" 17" and did the spanning.

I then added a 20" Dell to the PB and was using that pretty exclusively till I was given a VGA adapter for the eMac. With the Dell I can switch between VGA/DVI. Now that I have had a job change, the eMac is now primary and the PB is secondary.Does it get really hot?

[Kwyjibo]

I thought I should throw my opinion in on this one seeing as I had a very similar decision to make and finally changed my mind.

In november 2002 powerbooks we're much more expensive than iBooks and an iBook 12" was my best option, I upgrade a year later to the 12" powerbook for college and it was ok .... it was the size I was used to and it was a little faster. It got pretty warm but this was a revA which are known to do so. It also seemed pretty heavy for its size. This past week I decided to sell my powerbook and get a 15" and I love it, I desperately needed this size and I did spend like $1400 + $239 (edu prices) for my laptop originally and got $1100 for it for basically chaning my mind a year and a half later ..... I paid about $900 more now because of my changed mind which is considerable but I love the new machine, it weighs a pound more than the 12" so it seems pretty light comprably. I strong recommend the 15" if you can afford it because it just seems like a more solid machine and the extra screen real estate is definitely worth it imo. if you have anymore question feel free to PM me.

[h0e0h]

...then again is it worth the extra $400? (I'm not getting the superdrive...)



that may be a mistake... you never know when you'll miss it... especially if you have a vid project to do in some of your classes... i had to make one for a final in a freshman level class that wasn't even mass com. related... it was just a basic class. Man am i glad that i decided to go with the superdrive... it saved my grade... think about things like that and don't just go on price/impulse...

[dotdotdot]

that may be a mistake... you never know when you'll miss it... especially if you have a vid project to do in some of your classes... i had to make one for a final in a freshman level class that wasn't even mass com. related... it was just a basic class. Man am i glad that i decided to go with the superdrive... it saved my grade... think about things like that and don't just go on price/impulse...

It works perfectly for me...

My dad purchased an external DVD Burner for himself and gave it 2 me when he purchased an internal dual layer DVD burner for himself.

It turns out it is fully compatible with Mac OSX, even though it doesn't say it on the site.

So I can plug it into a 12" powerbook when i get one and then burn DVDs there - make Images on the road, its convienent. :D

[h0e0h]

It works perfectly for me...

My dad purchased an external DVD Burner for himself and gave it 2 me when he purchased an internal dual layer DVD burner for himself.

It turns out it is fully compatible with Mac OSX, even though it doesn't say it on the site.

So I can plug it into a 12" powerbook when i get one and then burn DVDs there - make Images on the road, its convienent. :D


the only problem there is for the person thinkin about buyin w/ or w/o the superdrive option is that if they need it they'll ultimately have to buy, or get lucky and be given, an external DVD Burner. But then if they need to use it on the go they'll have to lug it around... so i think that for my situation, and anyone in a similar one, the built in superdrive is the way to go, no doubt.

[puckhead193]

i think both are good, I got the 15" because its was going to my only computer. I planed on doing FC with it havn't gotten to that yet :rolleyes: The 15" is very portable. What people look at when they go the store, is they see the 12 and the 15" and think the 15" is to big, if u look at sepretly it looks alot smaller. How much traveling around are going to be doing with it? If you travel with it everyday and walk alot of city blocks of course it will get hevy.
At first when i got my pb in the mail i thought it was huge, but i got used to it now it seems small.... You will get used to the size/weight

[Southbridge]

the only problem there is for the person thinkin about buyin w/ or w/o the superdrive option is that if they need it they'll ultimately have to buy, or get lucky and be given, an external DVD Burner. But then if they need to use it on the go they'll have to lug it around... so i think that for my situation, and anyone in a similar one, the built in superdrive is the way to go, no doubt.

honestly I dont know when I'd ever have to put 4.7 gigs on a disc... I rarely use my CD burner as it is...

[Southbridge]

i think both are good, I got the 15" because its was going to my only computer. I planed on doing FC with it havn't gotten to that yet :rolleyes: The 15" is very portable. What people look at when they go the store, is they see the 12 and the 15" and think the 15" is to big, if u look at sepretly it looks alot smaller. How much traveling around are going to be doing with it? If you travel with it everyday and walk alot of city blocks of course it will get hevy.
At first when i got my pb in the mail i thought it was huge, but i got used to it now it seems small.... You will get used to the size/weight

I mean... I plan to walk around with the thing but I plan on getting a special backpack for it... I mean come on... 5.4 lbs is nothing.

[h0e0h]

honestly I dont know when I'd ever have to put 4.7 gigs on a disc... I rarely use my CD burner as it is...


well, the 4.7 gigs isn't the issue. are you currently a mac user?

[Southbridge]

well, the 4.7 gigs isn't the issue. are you currently a mac user?

um... ok... what is the issue? no I dont have a mac... but sometime this week I'll be a mac user...

[h0e0h]

um... ok... what is the issue? no I dont have a mac... but sometime this week I'll be a mac user...


well, when i bought mine i said... well, since i have it maybe i'll dive off into iMovie. well from there it has heavily progressed to FCP HD and a soon to be powermac. The superdrive, and having the ability to burn dvds, is part of the reason. I love it because i've been able to do so many things with it. I made my parents a DVD slideshow for their 25th wedding anniversary. And my girlfriend loves it when i pile pictures together of us that we've taken over the past couple of years and burn them to a DVD as a slide show for her to play at her house, because she doesn't have a computer worth a crap, or to show other people how wonderful her boyfriend is to her. I mean, we send slideshows to her grandparents who live out of state and stuff like that too. And i've even done some slideshows for a class project that i played on the DVD player instead of having to hook up my powerbook and then fiddle with the projector settings and things like that. It REALLY is worth it in my opinion, even for a new switcher. I mean, you do what you have to do, but backing up files is by far not the sole reason for a superdrive.

hope that helps...

[Southbridge]

well, when i bought mine i said... well, since i have it maybe i'll dive off into iMovie. well from there it has heavily progressed to FCP HD and a soon to be powermac. The superdrive, and having the ability to burn dvds, is part of the reason. I love it because i've been able to do so many things with it. I made my parents a DVD slideshow for their 25th wedding anniversary. And my girlfriend loves it when i pile pictures together of us that we've taken over the past couple of years and burn them to a DVD as a slide show for her to play at her house, because she doesn't have a computer worth a crap, or to show other people how wonderful her boyfriend is to her. I mean, we send slideshows to her grandparents who live out of state and stuff like that too. And i've even done some slideshows for a class project that i played on the DVD player instead of having to hook up my powerbook and then fiddle with the projector settings and things like that. It REALLY is worth it in my opinion, even for a new switcher. I mean, you do what you have to do, but backing up files is by far not the sole reason for a superdrive.

hope that helps...


yeah... no I mean thats cool and all but I dont think it's worth the extra $326 for one...

[h0e0h]

yeah... no I mean thats cool and all but I dont think it's worth the extra $326 for one...


I'm sayin that i LOVE my 12" (but i guess there's no point in saying that, because every person who owns a mac loves it) and i wouldn't trade the size of it for anything. Maybe you should check out some pics and make your decision from there or something. I love my config and here's a link to my pics... http://homepage.mac.com/h0e0h and be sure to check out the 'new'er setup link at the top of the page too. I really have the ideal situation for me, going to and from class and being here at home... i LOVE it!

BTW... good luck man...

[Southbridge]

I'm sayin that i LOVE my 12" (but i guess there's no point in saying that, because every person who owns a mac loves it) and i wouldn't trade the size of it for anything. Maybe you should check out some pics and make your decision from there or something. I love my config and here's a link to my pics... http://homepage.mac.com/h0e0h and be sure to check out the 'new'er setup link at the top of the page too. I really have the ideal situation for me, going to and from class and being here at home... i LOVE it!

BTW... good luck man...

uh... I think I can tell you like your 12"... I dont think I've ever seen someone put a webpage full of photos dedicated to their computer... um... thats kinda scary... I forgot what I was going to say... oh yah... wait... but if you're doing video editing and stuff like that isnt 12" a bitch?

[h0e0h]

uh... I think I can tell you like your 12"... I dont think I've ever seen someone put a webpage full of photos dedicated to their computer... um... actually I'm kinda speechless... I forgot what I was going to say... oh yah... wait... but if you're doing video editing and stuff like that isnt 12" a bitch?


actually i took those pics for this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1284535#post1284535) (now there's some crazy ppl in there) and no, the editing isn't that bad because usually when i edit i do it on a 17" CRT (because the response time and sharpness are better). The only time really i've edited on the 12" is when i was on a bus one time and the people i was traveling back with from Orlando wanted to have a copy of the vid to take with them... so we all stopped in the mall in orlando and they bought DVD-Rs and put their names on them and by the time we got back to Louisiana (16 hours) i had finished my vid and burned 16 copies. It was really cool... and you can see it on that link of pics even though its small.

And i really like the battery life of the 12" because on that same bus ride i took a 2 hour break to sleep and let my PB charge while i was sleeping and when i woke up it was ready to rock again... and so i did all that in a matter of like 10 hours...

[Southbridge]

actually i took those pics for this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1284535#post1284535) (now there's some crazy ppl in there) and no, the editing isn't that bad because usually when i edit i do it on a 17" CRT (because the response time and sharpness are better). The only time really i've edited on the 12" is when i was on a bus one time and the people i was traveling back with from Orlando wanted to have a copy of the vid to take with them... so we all stopped in the mall in orlando and they bought DVD-Rs and put their names on them and by the time we got back to Louisiana (16 hours) i had finished my vid and burned 16 copies. It was really cool... and you can see it on that link even though its small.

yeah... I think you should keep that webpage on the d-low... as for the powerbook I dont think I'm going to be hooking it up to another screen, because I want to keep my PC as my main computer, but I still want to do some editing on the powerbook, so I'll probabaly need a bigger screen.

btw that thread is kinda creepy... which begs the question am I buying my way into a cult? :confused:

[h0e0h]

yeah... I think you should keep that webpage on the d-low... as for the powerbook I dont think I'm going to be hooking it up to another screen, because I want to keep my PC as my main computer, but I still want to do some editing on the powerbook, so I'll probabaly need a bigger screen.

btw that thread is kinda creepy... which begs the question am I buying my way into a cult? :confused:

yeh, if you surf that entire thread you'll see that i'm not the only wierd one. And you can still keep your PC as your main computer and hook up the external monitor w/ a KVM switch. Belkin makes a nice one and you can get it from newegg.com. When i bought my PB i thought that i was gonna keep my PC as my main computer and now seriously all i use it for is solitare and posting in these forums...

[notjustjay]

I really like my 12" Powerbook being used as a desktop replacement, driving an external 17" LCD which is my primary monitor.

You really should check both out.. especially sit down and type and actually use the computer. My sister has a 15" Powerbook and for some reason after getting so used to the 12", it just doesn't feel right to use her 15". Typing on its keyboard feels so incredibly different, even though they're the same identical keyboards. Something about that edge around each side of the keyboard... plus when I use my thumb to tap what I expect to be the trackpad button, on her 15" I end up hitting bare metal. Oops!

[hechacker1]

i have a kick ass pc in my dorm already. Athlon 64 3500+ @ 2.4GHz. 1.5GB of ram, dual layer dvd-rw, 6800 Ultra It has windows and linux running.

I really don't need the superdrive, or to do gaming on this powerbook. I may do some photoshop work, but as far as I can tell, the specs (FSB, cpu, ram) are essentially the same on the 12" and 15". When I get the powerbook, i plan to put at least 1GB of ram. The screen estate is not that big of a deal. Almost everything is fine under 1024x768, i used that resolution for so many years before I got my newer Samsung 710T (17"/12ms/DVI). So i guess I can always hook it up to the powerbook.

I think I am going to go with the 12" after this dicussion, it has really helped a lot from a student perspective.

@the person who made a comment about students bringing their laptops:
I actually find that a lot of people bring laptops in my classes. Perhaps that is because the teachers hardly allow time for writing anything down, and yet we are expected to take notes verbatim. I know for one that I can type a whole lot faster than I can write. The unlit keyboard on the 12" shouldn't be a problem as long as it follows standard pc config which I have memorized completely.

I actually hope to use this laptop for java/c++ programming too, because it will simply be more convient when I have 1 hour breaks between classes and going back to my dorm is counter productive because by the time I get back it's already time to leave. that is another reason why I am waiting for Tiger (java 1.5)

that reminds me, my whole campus is wireless enabled. how is the 12" or 15" reception? does the size make a difference in the atenna they use?

Thanks everybody in the mac forums.

[hechacker1]

hmmm, i just visited my schools website and they offer the superdrive for $1499, and the combo for $1399. Kinda weird considering I though apple gave $200 discount for students. the superdrive model gets the discount, but the combo only gets $100 off. The super drive is more enticing now for the "gotta have it" factor... although I really don't need it.

[Lacero]

The one thing I don't like about the 17" PB are the extremely wide trackpad button. The 12" PB button is perfect size and makes a great clicking sound. The button on the 17" is so wide that sometimes pressing the button doesn't register as a click. That's my biggest pet peeve with the 17".

[_pb_boi]

uh... I think I can tell you like your 12"... I dont think I've ever seen someone put a webpage full of photos dedicated to their computer... um... thats kinda scary... I forgot what I was going to say... oh yah... wait... but if you're doing video editing and stuff like that isnt 12" a bitch?

yeah... I think you should keep that webpage on the d-low... as for the powerbook I dont think I'm going to be hooking it up to another screen, because I want to keep my PC as my main computer, but I still want to do some editing on the powerbook, so I'll probabaly need a bigger screen.

btw that thread is kinda creepy... which begs the question am I buying my way into a cult? :confused:

Which begs the question; why are you so critical? I doubt many of us care too much whether you buy your way into the 'cult' or not. If he wants pics of his computer, let him. If I spent that money, I'd want pics - and have damn well taken pics - to remember the thing by. It won't be around forever. His reason is a fine one.

andy.

[mootpoint]

Far from being "scary" I find pictures of setups/sizes most helpful when making decisions. Other users experiences weigh things up for me and, believe it or not, these forums are here to help/advise people.

[iGary]

If you can affford t he 15" I would certainly go that route - especially if you plan on doing any Photoshop/Graphic work.

I find if I have to do any Photoshop work on the road when shooting, that the 12" is a real pain (but that's not why I got the 12" - I wanted portability).

There are times I would like 15, but I have a 40-pound camera bag as it is, the last thing I want is more weight, which is why I chose the iBook 12".

Good luck - it's all about what you'll be using it for. ;)

[Platform]

Sort of both.

It was a desktop replacement before my other half gave up on the eMac that we bought as a backup for my PB 12" (since I did DTP, I could not "afford" any downtime). The PB was the first and only computer for about 6 months or so. So I connected it to an "old" 17" and did the spanning.

I then added a 20" Dell to the PB and was using that pretty exclusively till I was given a VGA adapter for the eMac. With the Dell I can switch between VGA/DVI. Now that I have had a job change, the eMac is now primary and the PB is secondary.

Thanks

I have a 17" LCD would that with a 12" be good enough for working area or :confused:

[Chip NoVaMac]

Thanks

I have a 17" LCD would that with a 12" be good enough for working area or :confused:

I was happy with my 17" crt till I got the 20" LCD.

[h0e0h]

Far from being "scary" I find pictures of setups/sizes most helpful when making decisions. Other users experiences weigh things up for me and, believe it or not, these forums are here to help/advise people.


That's the reason that i did it. I wanted detailed pics of the ports on the side, or the iCurve and its height elevation. Or the relative side of the apple keyboard. It has helped my friends switch a whole lot easier than the standard product pics from apple...

[BigDogg]

I say 15 inch all the way BabY! More real estate for internet / other
apps is a big plus.

[Southbridge]

see... now I'm leaning towards a 12" PB mainly because I want a laptop that WONT be my main computer and that I can port around to WiFi spots...

what really is the difference in terms of ethernet speed between the two? (12" vs. 15") wouldnt it depend on your connection?

[mcgarry]

see... now I'm leaning towards a 12" PB mainly because I want a laptop that WONT be my main computer and that I can port around to WiFi spots...

what really is the difference in terms of ethernet speed between the two? (12" vs. 15") wouldnt it depend on your connection?

It does. The 15" offers gigabit (10/100/1000 BASE-T) ethernet if you have something to plug it into that's spitting out at those speeds. The 12" offers only 10/100 BASE-T. For that type of connection there is no difference.

Do you mean WiFi speed difference? Officially, there is none, and any you hear reported are probably not major and depend on individual circumstances.

[Southbridge]

Which begs the question; why are you so critical? I doubt many of us care too much whether you buy your way into the 'cult' or not. If he wants pics of his computer, let him. If I spent that money, I'd want pics - and have damn well taken pics - to remember the thing by. It won't be around forever. His reason is a fine one.

andy.

I dunno... I just feel dirty looking at his mac in various poses...

[CaptainCaveMann]

How easily does the aluminum pb dent?

[mcgarry]

How easily does the aluminum pb dent?

If you don't bang it into things, it doesn't.

But seriously, all anyone can tell you is what happened in certain situations, not what exactly will happen in your potential situation. No one can answer your question with any kind of surety, they can only speak from their unique experience. Most of the dents I hear about come from dropping. If you want to read more such stories, there are plenty in this forum.

Like any laptop, made of anything, if you hit/drop/kick/whatever it, it's not going to like it. I think that's the best thing about this anyone can tell you.

Man, you've been asking a lot of questions ... not that there's anything wrong with that. When are you just going to take the plunge? After a few recent posts about clamshell mode, I thought you got an iBook already?

Edit:
I just found a post of yours in a thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1274435) from earlier this month where you say the AlBook "dents much to easily." There you have it! We macrumors regulars are never mistaken, I swear.

[CaptainCaveMann]

If you don't bang it into things, it doesn't.

But seriously, all anyone can tell you is what happened in certain situations, not what exactly will happen in your potential situation. No one can answer your question with any kind of surety, they can only speak from their unique experience. Most of the dents I hear about come from dropping. If you want to read more such stories, there are plenty in this forum.

Like any laptop, made of anything, if you hit/drop/kick/whatever it, it's not going to like it. I think that's the best thing about this anyone can tell you.

Man, you've been asking a lot of questions ... not that there's anything wrong with that. When are you just going to take the plunge? After a few recent posts about clamshell mode, I thought you got an iBook already?

Edit:
I just found a post of yours in a thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1274435) from earlier this month where you say the AlBook "dents much to easily." There you have it! We macrumors regulars are never mistaken, I swear.Whats your point? Is that any of your business? I said it dented to easily based on what people tell me. Im always wanting new input from new people. There you have it. Sherlock. :rolleyes: Yes i have a 12 inch ibook how many times must i confirm that. Do you want pics of me standing next to it? Do you want pics of me? lol Dude get over it and stay off my nutz.

[mcgarry]

Whats your point? Is that any of your business? I said it dented to easily based on what people tell me. Im always wanting new input from new people. There you have it. Sherlock. :rolleyes: Yes i have a 12 inch ibook how many times must i confirm that. Do you want pics of me standing next to it? Do you want pics of me? lol Dude get over it and stay off my nutz.

Just trying to help. Posting lots of questions over many months in a public forum makes it all of our business ... seriously, nothing wrong with that. No nutz involved. No pix necessary.

[CaptainCaveMann]

Just trying to help. Posting lots of questions over many months in a public forum makes it all of our business ... seriously, nothing wrong with that. No nutz involved. No pix necessary.Anyone that gos back to find a members posts, seriously has way to much time on their hands. It shows a form of criticalism(if thats a word) in a person that is really annoying. I dont do that to anyone on this site since ive been a member. Im honestly to lazy and i honestly dont care. If someone wants to ask the same question 50 different ways, so be it. Ill get annoyed at 51. ;)

[mcgarry]

Anyone that gos back to find a members posts, seriously has way to much time on their hands. It shows a form of criticalism(if thats a word) in a person that is really annoying. I dont do that to anyone on this site since ive been a member. Im honestly to lazy and i honestly dont care. If someone wants to ask the same question 50 different ways, so be it. Ill get annoyed at 51. ;)

Normally, I would agree. But in this case I simply searched this forum for the word "toughness" (try for yourself if you want; it's the first result since it's recent) to find instances where I knew people had discussed PB denting. Your post turned up in one of the threads. I was not searching for posts by you, but I did find it odd that an answer to your question came from ... you, so I mentioned it in my post.

[CaptainCaveMann]

Normally, I would agree. But in this case I simply searched this forum for the word "toughness" (try for yourself if you want; it's the first result since it's recent) to find instances where I knew people had discussed PB denting. Your post turned up in one of the threads. I was not searching for posts by you, but I did find it odd that an answer to your question came from ... you, so I mentioned it in my post.Maybe, but i wasnt asking myself. I was asking others, not even specifically you. In context, that was not an answer to my post.

[mcgarry]

Maybe, but i wasnt asking myself. I was asking others, not even specifically you. In context, that was not an answer to my post.

???
OK

I know you weren't asking yourself. It's just not everyday you see someone answering a question in one thread and asking it in another, in that order .... you have to admit, if you stumbled across something like this you might find it a bit odd. So in the context of actually doing my best to answer your question with the bulk ofmy post (I am part of "others" here), I mentioned it as an addendum. No offense intended. No big deal.

[CaptainCaveMann]

???
OK

I know you weren't asking yourself. It's just not everyday you see someone answering a question in one thread and asking it in another, in that order .... you have to admit, if you stumbled across something like this you might find it a bit odd. So in the context of actually doing my best to answer your question with the bulk ofmy post (I am part of "others" here), I mentioned it as an addendum. No offense intended. No big deal.I wasnt answering my question. Maybe i wasnt specific enough. My question should have been "Do you guys think the aluminum pb dents to easily? Why or why not?" Is that better for you? That wasnt my question but thats what i meant.

[Spizzo]

I love my 17"...dont think it's too big to carry around. But mostly i use it as a mobile desk top computer. (Travel for work...)

I don't think that the albooks dent easy...In the year I've had mine, never dented it, and just a minor scratch or two. (Wow, I've been a Mac user for a year now. Actually, a year yesterday!!!! Happy Mac B-day to me!!) :D

[_pb_boi]

Careful, or this thread will be heading to wasteland... :rolleyes:

Just a feeling!

andy.

[Platform]

I was happy with my 17" crt till I got the 20" LCD.

Thank for that.

Might consider that then but the 15" still look's nice with the 3"extra wide inches ;)
And is the PC card slot+ FW 800 + 1 RAM slot + gfx go 5200 and the mini DVI a big loss vs the 15" specs :confused:

[h0e0h]

first of all cavemann, you need to slow your roll cause its easy to piss people off in here. Secondly, if you don't like the answers you're getting, don't argue about them, just go somewhere else for them. and last, i've had my PB for almost a month and when it leaves my desk or my iCurve i put it in a PowerSleeve from Radtech.us and then in my padded bag. I don't have any scratches or dents in it anywhere. I'm a college student and my iPod is beat to hell and back... but for some reason my PB seems to be still in pristine condition...

[Dagless]

im a student who carries his PB around every day to no less than 3 campuses. 12" for me. fair play the 15" is faster but its bigger too. if i had endless money but i could only pick one, t'would either be the 12" or the 17" if portability wasnt an issue. and even then if it came to the 17" id rather get an iMac.

[Southbridge]

I just got back from CompUSA and nobody here seemed to mention that the resolution on the 12" powerbook screen really sucks... :(

I'm starting to look at the Sony Vaio S360...

[mcgarry]

I just got back from CompUSA and nobody here seemed to mention that the resolution on the 12" powerbook screen really sucks... :(

I'm starting to look at the Sony Vaio S360...

Yeah, that's normal for a 12", it'd be more worth mentioning if it was somehow abnormal for a 12" to have 1024x768. All the Thinkpad X-series are the same, I believe. The Dell 12" "widescreen" is wider, but so is the laptop itself, not surprisingly. Similar for the 13" Sony. So you're right in general, but in the context of 12"ers, this is normal. If you don't like it, you can of course not get a 12", or live with it on the road and use it with a monitor at home.

For what it's worth, also remember that the Sony won't have Exposé to go with what still is a small screen.

[Southbridge]

For what it's worth, also remember that the Sony won't have Exposé to go with what still is a small screen.

Honestly I think for me screen resolution/color is a little bit more important than OS/Software...

[mcgarry]

Honestly I think for me screen resolution/color is a little bit more important than OS/Software...

Of course, to each his own, I wouldn't tell you not to get the Sony. If you don't like PB keyboards and screens, maybe PBs just are not for you. I mentioned Exposé specifically because it lets you sort of cheat on screen area in a way Windows doesn't. This forum has many accounts of switchers who are in love with it, esepcially for what it can do on smaller screens. Just a thought.

The Sony in consideration-- if I'm reading its page correctly-- offers no internal DVD-burner (external available for $400 from Sony) and has a 1GB RAM ceiling (and Sony's in-house RAM upgrade option makes Apple look inexpensive). All retailing for $1900 to start. But if you need it's keyboard and screen, that's what you need, or something else more like it. No problem with that.

[Southbridge]

Of course, to each his own, I wouldn't tell you not to get the Sony. If you don't like PB keyboards and screens, maybe PBs just are not for you.

The Sony in consideration-- if I'm reading its page correctly-- offers no internal DVD-burner (external available for $400 from Sony) and has a 1GB RAM ceiling (and Sony's in-house RAM upgrade option makes Apple look inexpensive). All retailing for $1900 to start. But if you need it's keyboard and screen, that's what you need, or something else more like it. No problem with that.

well... also compusa is having a sale on the S360...

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=317697&pfp=SEARCH

it definately feels and looks better than the 12" powerbook...

[wizz0bang]

I personally find 1024x768 to be just about right for a 12" screen.

The plus for other laptops are better quality screens... I LOVE Sony's xbrite technology and wish Apple would update the screens and video cards on the PBs. Not to mention the 1.7 Pentium M puts a G4 1.5 to shame in both speed, FSB, and battery life. Unfortunately, the Sony S360 won't run OSX. So I'll stick with the 12" PB for now. :)

Too bad Freescale couldn't hurry it up with the 667mhz FSB G4 dual core chips (around 2.0 ghz would be nice). Add that to a newer ATI video chipset with 128mb and a better quality 12" display, Apple would have a real winner. Of course FW800, a PCMICA slot and 2 dimm slots would be welcome too. While were at it, throw in a backlit keyboard. Do you think they could fit all of that in there? Heh :) Design it in a carbon fiber case, make it the same foot print, but only 1" thick, double the battery life and take a pound off the weight. Keep the price at $1699 as well. Hahah.

[BigDogg]

well... also compusa is having a sale on the S360...

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=317697&pfp=SEARCH

it definately feels and looks better than the 12" powerbook...

CompUsa surely has put a good price on the Sony, but I would much rather
have the Powerbook formfactor + the Mac OSX operating system.

Windoze = too many viruses for me... :eek:

[Jsmit]

If you want a Mac notebook with better resolution than you should start looking at the 15" again. If you don't care if your next computer runs a Windows or Mac OS, then by all means get the Sony.

BTW: by saying the resolution "sucks" you are insulting a lot of peoples 'books on this forum. Not a way to make a lot of friends. I realize you didn't mean anything by it but it still hurts. ;) No one mentioned the resolution to you for two reasons: 1) it is pretty comparable to the rest of the industry 2) you, yourself gave a link to the PowerBooks home-page and the tech specs, including resolution, are just one click away once you are there.

Oh and to answer the original question: No the screen does not feel to small after almost 6 months. I mostly use the iLife apps, Mail, Safari, Final Cut Express (a little cramped), Excel, and BZFlag.

[CaptainCaveMann]

first of all cavemann, you need to slow your roll cause its easy to piss people off in here. Secondly, if you don't like the answers you're getting, don't argue about them, just go somewhere else for them. and last, i've had my PB for almost a month and when it leaves my desk or my iCurve i put it in a PowerSleeve from Radtech.us and then in my padded bag. I don't have any scratches or dents in it anywhere. I'm a college student and my iPod is beat to hell and back... but for some reason my PB seems to be still in pristine condition...Ohhhhh im scared. Seriously lame. I dont care if i piss you off or anyone else for that matter. But anyway lets not get personal, back on topic. :)

[pxlshftr]

I owned a 12" of the previous revision, and to be honest, I always thought the screen was too small, and was really not happy with it. I recently made the jump to a 15" PB of the newest revision and I am very happy with the screen, however, you do give up a lot for that nice big resolution. The battery life isn't as good on the 15" which is a big deal when i spend all day on campus. I used to not even bring my power adapter with me for my 12", now i can't leave home without it. So add on that extra pound of weight that the 15" adds, plus the weight of the power adapter, and you have your new travel weight. If you think that the screen is too small now, it will get worse as you use the computer more. Also, the 12" is not nearly as bright or vibrant as the 15" screen. Just keep all that in mind.

I'd say if you're going to be getting a computer as your MAIN computer, get the 15". If you already have a desktop, go for the 12", as it makes the best damn supplementary computer you could ever want. I had a desktop with my 12" and they made a very dynamic duo, but now that i own a 15", i almost never touch my desktop, which makes me sad. (waste of money to have two computers when i only use one.)

[Southbridge]

If you want a Mac notebook with better resolution than you should start looking at the 15" again. If you don't care if your next computer runs a Windows or Mac OS, then by all means get the Sony.

BTW: by saying the resolution "sucks" you are insulting a lot of peoples 'books on this forum. Not a way to make a lot of friends. I realize you didn't mean anything by it but it still hurts. ;) No one mentioned the resolution to you for two reasons: 1) it is pretty comparable to the rest of the industry 2) you, yourself gave a link to the PowerBooks home-page and the tech specs, including resolution, are just one click away once you are there.

Oh and to answer the original question: No the screen does not feel to small after almost 6 months. I mostly use the iLife apps, Mail, Safari, Final Cut Express (a little cramped), Excel, and BZFlag.

well... It kinda sucks that I can't get an honest opinon. Everybody is like Apple is the best Apple can't do no wrong... Powerbooks are the greatest EVER. blah blah blah. I admit they're good computers but are people afraid to criticize Apple?

No... the 12" screen is really pretty sad when you compare it to the 15". But the 15" is too big to be lugging around everywhere. Apple needs to make something inbetween which isnt the low-end Ibook, which is no good either...

I think my most important criteria in a laptop are manageable size, a good screen, and OS in that order...

12" is a great size, but the resolution is bad. 15" has a great screen but its too big...

the 13.1" Sony has a great screen and great size, but the OS is not as good...

:(

[dotdotdot]

well... It kinda sucks that I can't get an honest opinon. Everybody is like Apple is the best Apple can't do no wrong... Powerbooks are the greatest EVER. blah blah blah. I admit they're good computers but are people afraid to criticize Apple?

No... the 12" screen is really pretty sad when you compare it to the 15". But the 15" is too big to be lugging around everywhere. Apple needs to make something inbetween which isnt the low-end Ibook, which is no good either...

I think my most important criteria in a laptop are manageable size, a good screen, and OS in that order...

12" is a great size, but the resolution is bad. 15" has a great screen but its too big...

the 13.1" Sony has a great screen and great size, but the OS is not as good...

:(

In that post, while I agree with it, is contradicting yourself. You said the OS is not as good [as an Apple], but before that you said you can't get an honest oppinion because everyone says 'Apple is the greatest' - which is true as this is an apple based site...

But to the technical stuff...

...I happen to think that Apple should make an inbetween screen, like a 13.x" screen - would sell well...

...but the PowerBook at 12" is great - especially when the price of CRTs has gone down so much. If you buy the base powerbook at $1,499 and a 20" CRT for like under $100, you have spent a little over sixteen hundred on an amazing system...

[mcgarry]

Southbridge,
It's hard to give you what you're looking for, from what I can tell. Anyone can say "a 1 GHz G4 is slower than a 1.5 GHz G4" because those are easily acknowledged facts based on basic specs. Similarly, we can say "a 12-inch screen is smaller than a 15-inch screen." But when you say things like (not exact quotes) "this keyboard is poorly designed" or "this screen sucks," those are subjective comments that cannot be proven or disproven. You are perfectly welcome to hold those views, but I'm not sure how you can turn around and be surprised when people offer contrasting views that are equally valid in their personal experience. Those are, for the most part, "honest opinions" even if they're not identical to yours. Why you think they're not "honest," I don't know.

A resolution cannot be inherently "bad" or "sad"-- we've been over this, the 12" PB has a perfectly normal resolution for its size-- it can only be larger or smaller than another resolution screen to which you are comparing. Different people like/need different sized screens. A 15" laptop can be "too big" for you, but not for someone else. Someone saying the 15" is just right for them is not necessarily them being a rabid fanboy, that might actually be their experience. And so on ... an iBook is "no good" for you, but perfect for many people. When someone says they like their iBook, they have not had too much Kool-Aid ... they might just be telling you how they honestly feel. You want facts, we can do that; you want opinion, we're doing that too.

You've asked a lot of questions and received a lot of answers. From what I can tell, most of them have not said "apple is the greatest EVER" or anything of the sort. I'm not trying to speak for everyone else, this is just my impression. I, for one, have tried my best to answer many of your inquiries, and I do not think mine contained any "apple can do no wrong"-stuff. Correct me if I'm mistaken about this. I even said you should get a Sony if the PB screen/keyboard don't suit you, and I wasn't just being rhetorical, I meant it. But this is a Mac-board, so you can't be too surprised to find people here that like Macs. Even so, despite your claim to the contrary, in my experience I think you can find some of the mosty piercing and meaningful criticism anywhere of Apple and their products right here on these boards, often in this forum ... there's even some in this thread.

[adamjay]

a couple years ago i had a 15" notebook computer with 1024x768, you'd think i was blind but that was the standard years ago.

as far as the 12" res being "bad", it depends on what you consider "good"
do you want less or more pixels. in terms of size of objects on screen, i think the 15" is almost directly representational to the 12", it has about as many more pixels as it does screen space to put the pixels on.

i love the 12", i owned the Rev A and now i've got a Rev D. they are great for portability, and when i need the extra screen space i can always DVI it up to the LCD 17" at 1280x1024.

mcgarry is right in that there is no good or bad, its all preference.

[Jsmit]

Southbridge: enjoy your Sony laptop, it is clear that you wont be happy with Apple alternatives. I want to try to convince you to stay with an Apple, but they don't have the right product for you. Sony does though,it has everything you want but the OS.

CaptainCaveMann: I am glad to hear you got your notebook. How is it treating you? Good, I hope.

[Southbridge]

ok... ok... look I'm sorry because I'm just a little frustrated with this whole thing... I'm just looking for the ideal notebook and I'm just not quite finding it, so its kinda pissing me off...

[areyouwishing]

ok... ok... look I'm sorry because I'm just a little frustrated with this whole thing... I'm just looking for the ideal notebook and I'm just not quite finding it, so its kinda pissing me off...

I have a 12" and this is my take. If you will be using photoshop the most out of all your applications, you need to think about what palettes you use. To me, with 1024x768 you gets me the very basic essentials: History/Actions, Layers/Channels, Info/Colors/Swatches. You can fit all that on your screen in one palette row and still have decent room for your actual image you are working on. If you personally need to see more palettes at a time go with the 15" but you are sacrificing some of that portability.

All Apple programs function flawlessly in 1024x768 (even final cut pro to an extent), but when you need to do the hardcore stuff (sitting down for longer than 1.5 hours) hook it up at home to a real monitor, and have all your palette locations saved and, "boom" you don't have to move everything around.

The 12" has the EXACT same size keyboard as the 15" so I don't know if you are worried about your hands being "cramped" but thats really not an issue between the 2.

All in all the 12" was designed as an ultra-portable, if you are looking for just a "portable" and you don't care about battery being shorter, and you want the extra 256x86 pixels, go for the 15". PERIOD.


Edit: Oh yeah, i've had my 12" for 1.5 years and have only had 2 people ask to trade their 15" AI books for mine :) I will be honest in saying that there have been times that i said "i wish my screen was bigger" but their have been thousands more times where i said "i am so glad this is so portable."

[Southbridge]

yeah... I'm still impressed with the Sony... It really comes down to do you get the best performing machine or do you get a Mac... I get a sense that Apple is really good at software but not at hardware, while PC's are the opposite...

[mcgarry]

yeah... I'm still impressed with the Sony... It really comes down to do you get the best performing machine or do you get a Mac... I get a sense that Apple is really good at software but not at hardware, while PC's are the opposite...

Again, saying something is the "best performing" is not quite a fact in this case. "Faster FSB speed" is something we can say, for example, but there are just too many variables to make something the "best performing" overall not just for you, but for anyone else. "Best performing" can also be true in a specific context like "best performing at this particular photoshop render I like." But even then, it's usually not that simple except in some very obvious cases. Speaking BROADLY, there is not a serious hardware difference between these two laptops; any sort of task this Vaio can do, the PB can do too. Furthermore, that Vaio you mentioned lacks some features of the PBs that could be very important to some people even if not to you, the OS is just one of them (albeit a huge one for me at least).

So what I think it "really comes down to" is what laptop will serve you best: your needs, your desires, your budget. If that's the Sony, nothing says you have to get a Mac, so go ahead and get the Sony.

[Southbridge]

Again, saying something is the "best performing" is not quite a fact in this case. "Faster FSB speed" is something we can say, for example, but there are just too many variables to make something the "best performing" overall not just for you, but for anyone else. "Best performing" can also be true in a specific context like "best performing at this particular photoshop render I like." But even then, it's usually not that simple except in some very obvious cases. Speaking BROADLY, there is not a serious hardware difference between these two laptops; any sort of task this Vaio can do, the PB can do too. Furthermore, that Vaio you mentioned lacks some features of the PBs that could be very important to some people even if not to you, the OS is just one of them (albeit a huge one for me at least).

So what I think it "really comes down to" is what laptop will serve you best: your needs, your desires, your budget. If that's the Sony, nothing says you have to get a Mac, so go ahead and get the Sony.

no... like for example on a website like http://www.heavy.com which has rich media and flash the Sony just performs these tasks smoother and quicker. Also the screen has better resolution so it looks a little nicer... I'm talking versus the 15" 1.5Ghz powerbook of course... So I think in terms of hardware the vaio performs better. Now software is a different mattter... but I'm still trying to find reasons to buy a Mac. When it comes down to it OS is only one component of the overall picture of the computer...

[mcgarry]

whatever man, looks fine on my PB, don't see any problems or sluggishness. I haven't been there in a long time, and the last time I had a PC and accessed it I was on a Pentium II (if I remember correctly), so that's not really a fair comparison. But anyway, it's all context, who knows how much RAM each test machine has, which browser you use, all sorts of variables. You cannot factually state that the Vaio simply "performs better," period-- maybe in the context of a specific battery of tests or tasks or whatever, but just to state it outright as the result of viewing one website in far-from-test conditions is sort of silly. You CAN accurately say "The Vaio performs better at task x," and so on, and to be fair, that's probably what you meant. That was my point. Plus, this is not just about OS or software, aslegit as those points are. Check the specs, there are quite a few things the Vaio can't even do that the 15" PB and even the 12" can. They are different computers and how they perform depends on who you are and what you do.

[Southbridge]

whatever man, looks fine on my PB, don't see any problems or sluggishness. I haven't been there in a long time, and the last time I had a PC and accessed it I was on a Pentium II (if I remember correctly), so that's not really a fair comparison. But anyway, it's all context, who knows how much RAM each test machine has, which browser you use, all sorts of variables. You cannot factually state that the Vaio simply "performs better," period-- maybe in the context of a specific battery of tests or tasks or whatever, but just to state it outright as the result of viewing one website in far-from-test conditions is sort of silly. You CAN accurately say "The Vaio performs better at task x," and so on, and to be fair, that's probably what you meant. That was my point. Plus, this is not just about OS or software, aslegit as those points are. Check the specs, there are quite a few things the Vaio can't even do that the 15" PB and even the 12" can. They are different computers and how they perform depends on who you are and what you do.

yeah the Mac performs fine, but the Sony performs better. And I mean smoother, I mean quicker... Plus the screen looks better than the powerbook. I mean the only way to prove it is for you to go to CompUSA and see it yourself. I spent 2 hours yesterday looking specifially at the two. I spent like 3 hours today, and I'll go tomorrow and spend some time before making a final decision. The vaio... which runs at 1.7ghz and 400 fsb clearly is a better machine... I mean speaking of hardware.

See... when PC's talk about their computer the first thing they talk about is their hardware. When Mac users talk about their computer the first thing they talk about is the OS. But software and hardware are like ying and yang in a computer. The ideal computer would be Mac OS with PC hardware... But that'll never happen.

So why would I buy a Mac? I think it comes down to do I want to buy into the Mac way of thinking or not. Do I want to consider myself part of the hip, edgy and artsy crowd and get a machine thats good but not quite as good? I mean it's a tradeoff. It really is about identity and which group do you want to belong to. Thats the ultimate decision on whether to get a mac or PC... Are you in or are you out?

[mcgarry]

Where to begin with these ridiculous generalizations ...

Again, whatever man, if you think this is all about identity and being "edgy," I really can't help you. I thought I was making a good effort to help, but I guess not. It's like you didn't even read my last post. Just get whatever you like; if it's better for you, better it is.

[Southbridge]

Where to begin with these ridiculous generalizations ...

Again, whatever man, if you think this is all about identity and being "edgy," I really can't help you. It's like you didn't even read my last post. Whatever, just get a Sony.

but you can't deny it. Thats the heart of the Apple marketing strategy. Image. You can't really believe that Image of a macuser has nothing to do with it... I mean I know I'm talking about a really sensitive subject, but why not bring it out into the open? Apple has a powerful marketing scheme going on. Lets just admit it. Do they have a good product? Yes. But if nothing else Steve Jobs is a brilliant marketer and salesman.

[h0e0h]

The vaio... which runs at 1.7ghz and 400 fsb clearly is a better machine... I mean speaking of hardware.

See... when PC's talk about their computer the first thing they talk about is their hardware. When Mac users talk about their computer the first thing they talk about is the OS. But software and hardware are like ying and yang in a computer. The ideal computer would be Mac OS with PC hardware... But that'll never happen.



That's the typical PC user's response to apple's seemingly "low" processor speed, when in all actuality i believe that the g4 in the powerbooks would blow that sony away. Case in point... I have a dell laptop that actually belongs to my dad that he bought in may. It was one of the fastest at the time @ 2.6GHz (400 FSB) w/ 512mb DDR. My powerbook is 1.33GHz w/ the same 512mb DDR. The day he opened it up i installed microsoft office, photoshop 7, and AVID (a digital editing package). I opened up Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, photoshop, and avid. Then i opened up Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Entourage, photoshop, and Final Cut Pro HD on the mac. While all that was up and running I opened the calculator on the PC and AIM on the powerbook... and BAM... bluescreen on XP. The powerbook didn't suffer any crashes or anything... so don't let that processor mumbo jumbo crap get in your face... because its truly like comparing APPLES to oranges...

Oh, and since this "match made in heaven" with a PCs hardware and Apple's OS will never happened... have you ever sat down at the g5 dual 2.5GHz with 2 gigs of ram on dual 23" Cinema displays? Obviously not if you don't think there can be a combination of braun w/ the "untouchable PC hardware" and the brains of OS X...

[Southbridge]

That's the typical PC user's response to apple's seemingly "low" processor speed, when in all actuality i believe that the g4 in the powerbooks would blow that sony away. Case in point... I have a dell laptop that actually belongs to my dad that he bought in may. It was one of the fastest at the time @ 2.6GHz (400 FSB) w/ 512mb DDR. My powerbook is 1.33GHz w/ the same 512mb DDR. The day he opened it up i installed microsoft office, photoshop 7, and AVID (a digital editing package). I opened up Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, photoshop, and avid. Then i opened up Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Entourage, photoshop, and Final Cut Pro HD on the mac. While all that was up and running I opened the calculator on the PC and AIM on the powerbook... and BAM... bluescreen on XP. The powerbook didn't suffer any crashes or anything... so don't let that processor mumbo jumbo crap get in your face... because its truly like comparing APPLES to oranges...

I dont think it is... A computer is a computer. They both have generally similar structures inside. Why should it be different? I'm thinking that OS X might be better at resource management than XP, where XP might do one thing at a time really well, but multiple things not as well, where a Mac with OS X although it might not have the processing speed, can allocate the necessary resources better. Again... thats the mark of the OS and not the Hardware, and I agree OS X is better than XP.

[mcgarry]

but you can't deny it. Thats the heart of the Apple marketing strategy. Image. You can't really believe that Image of a macuser has nothing to do with it... I mean I know I'm talking about a really sensitive subject, but why not bring it out into the open? Apple has a powerful marketing scheme going on. Lets just admit it. Do they have a good product? Yes. But if nothing else Steve Jobs is a brilliant marketer and salesman.

Deny what? That Apple markets their products? Yeah, MS, Dell, and Sony do nothing of the sort. Whoever needs to spend $2k on something to feel "edgy" is beyond me ... whatever, more power to them, I thought we were taliking about computers here.

This is so silly. I hope this thread gets wastelanded. Too much moss on this stone.

[Southbridge]

Deny what? That Apple markets their products? Yeah, MS, Dell, and Sony do nothing of the sort. Whoever needs to spend $2k on something to feel "edgy" is beyond me ... whatever, more power to them, I thought we were taliking about computers here.

This is so silly. I hope this thread gets wastelanded. Too much moss on this stone.

ok... I think I touched a nerve. Lets just forget about it.

[Demon Hunter]

That's the typical PC user's response to apple's seemingly "low" processor speed, when in all actuality i believe that the g4 in the powerbooks would blow that sony away.

Um, sorry... no.

Great example of a Mac user being blinded by the facts. He "believes" the G4 is faster... you keep believing, man! It won't change the 'marks.

That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... and are you ready for this? A 2 MB L2 CACHE! Comparing the 12" PB to this machine is somewhat of a joke. In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.

I love Apple, but Southbridge, I think you're right about the whole Apple "image" thing, and the hardware/PC software/Mac thing. Most of us have a bias though, and you've realized that.

Just decide what you will be happier with.

[Jsmit]

I always find that when I use a PC, I have to be conscious not to ask the computer to do to much. I tend to ask them to do much and they hang, often. I have been having much better luck now that I have trained myself to use one program at a time in Windows. Maybe you have better luck on Windows. On the Mac, I don't have worry. Because of this, I get more work done on my 1.33 GHz PowerBook then my Bosses 3.something GHz Pentium 4 Compaq Desktop (in the interest of full disclosure: I have 1.25 GB RAM to his 512 MB RAM).

I was at the Apple Store today, and you are right, the keyboards just don't feel as nice until you are sitting. It is strange.

You are also right, Macs really are about the software. The software is probably the number 1 reason to get a Mac. However, I don't see the big difference in hardware that you see. PC don't inherently have better hardware. That said, it might still be the better hardware for you.

I switched to a Mac back in 2001. OS X was not the driving force behind my decision (I admit it, I didn't even know about it when I made my decision). Back then the software was fine but not the dominate reason it is today. I pulled my PC off the web before popups, spy-ware, etc were the problem they are day, I never had to worry about them). I just liked the form factor of the old CRT iMacs (it also fit my budget). That being said, I stayed because of the software.

Do you have a Mac now? You have PCs now right? I don't think you can fully appreciate the importance of the software on a Mac.

[mcgarry]

... [snip]

That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... and are you ready for this? A 2 MB L2 CACHE! Comparing the 12" PB to this machine is somewhat of a joke. In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.
... [snip]

hmmm, well, it's also larger and more expensive than the 12" PB, so it better be faster in certain ways ... though it still doesn't offer internal DVD-burning and more than 1GB of RAM. Compare to the 15" for more such unfavorable comparisons, like double the RAM and VRAM ceilings, for starters ... yeah, those can affect performance a wee bit sometimes. Raw speed as experienced by the user depends on a lot of things. I will never disagree with you on the FSB/Cache stuff, but to say this Vaio is a better performer simply because of those facts just ignores too much reality. It is a better performer in some things, maybe in most things I don't disagree, but it is not simply a better performer, period, end of story. As we seem to agree, to each his own (computer).

And by the way, can we get off this ridiculous "image" thing? EVERY company has some sort of image, and if you want to buy based on whatever that is, go ahead, I just don't think it's worth discussing here.

[shane-o-mac]

Apple's focus is really on the user and for the vast majority of users how you interact with the product is more important then clock speed and a slew of preformance specs. Ask Apple users how many would go back to pc's. Apple's market share is growing at a rapid pace. The reason, users are tiring of all the additional head aches associated not only with XP but mass produced form factors that are a hodgepodge of uncompatable hardware. Owning a pc just takes more effort. A mac is designed to make the computing experience enjoyable and elegant. Afficandos will always argue for performance numbers while the rest of us just want to buy a machine that works well and is a pleasure to use. Apple has hit its stride and I hope it continues to get better.

[Southbridge]

Um, sorry... no.

Great example of a Mac user being blinded by the facts. He "believes" the G4 is faster... you keep believing, man! It won't change the 'marks.

That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... and are you ready for this? A 2 MB L2 CACHE! Comparing the 12" PB to this machine is somewhat of a joke. In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.

I love Apple, but Southbridge, I think you're right about the whole Apple "image" thing, and the hardware/PC software/Mac thing. Most of us have a bias though, and you've realized that.

Just decide what you will be happier with.

hey man. thanks. I'm glad there's someone out there who sees things a little more objectively. I was actually comparing the Vaio S360 with the 15" combo drive powerbook.

here are the specs on the vaio S360P:
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=VGNS360P&Dept=cpu_VAIONotebookComputers&CategoryName=cpu_VAIONotebookComputers_SSeries

here are the specs on the 15" powerbook:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71102/wo/ds2Rz30L4gST23VBC3q1AI4dWgC/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.1.1.1.0.0.1.0

The S360P is clearly faster.

All the advantages that the Mac has are in the software. I'm not making light of software in general because it's just as important as the hardware... but at the same time hardware is important too.

[mcgarry]

[snip]

The S360P is clearly faster.
[snip]


at what ?

if you want someone to be "objective" give them an objective set of test criteria. You're looking at GHz numbers and drawing blanket conclusions. That's not "objective," unless you're just talking about the specific component whose speed the GHz measures.

Look, I am not saying and have never said that the PB is faster. Which laptop performs better depends on ... I know this is crazy ... what you do with it. As has been said, the 15" PB, especially, has its own set of serious hardware advantages over the Vaio, but whatever, if it's MHz you want, get the Sony.

[Southbridge]

at what ?

if you want someone to be "objective" give them an objective set of test criteria. You're looking at GHz numbers and drawing blanket conclusions. That's not "objective," unless you're just talking about the specific component whose speed the GHz measures.

Look, I am not saying and have never said that the PB is faster. Which laptop performs better depends on ... I know this is crazy ... what you do with it. As has been said, the 15" PB, especially, has its own set of serious hardware advantages over the Vaio, but whatever, if it's MHz you want, get the Sony.

I gave an example. At handling flash animation the vaio is clearly faster the the 15" PB, but you dont seem to believe me. I didnt try it but I'm sure for stuff that takes large frame rates, the Vaio might be better. I get a sense that Mac might be better at managing various programs that are open at the same time... I'm not even talking about MHz... 1.7 isnt that much faster than 1.5... or even the bus speed... 400Mhz vs. 166Mhz... ok... if hardware performance isnt important to you and I'm sure it's not important to like 90% of computer users then I'd recommend a Mac... In fact I actually helped a guy in CompUSA buy a iBook today. He saw that I was looking at the powerbook, and he asked me about it. He said he was looking to do some film stuff, and he wasnt that up to speed on computers in general. I said Macs would be perfect for him. I pointed him towards the iBook and as he walked out with one I assured him that he'd like it. My point is I'm trying to buy a computer without any hang ups and in a purely objective way, because ****in-a its a lot of money, and I dont buy computers that often. I'm trying to give both PC's and Macs a totally fair shot and I really apreciate everybody's comments and stuff because it gives me a chance to see all sides.

[mcgarry]

Fair enough. I appreciate your trying to be objective (that's why we should leave this "image" stuff aside-- we could hardly get more subjective).

I never said hardware isn't important. I more or less said you seem to be privileging FSB & MHz, for example, over other aspects of hardware that the PB offers but not the Vaio: FW800, BT2, a larger screen, plus options for far more RAM, double the VRAM, a backlit keyboard, more HD, DVD-burning, and maybe others I'm forgetting at the moment (what speed is the VAIO HD-- Sony doesn't say). Now none of these might be important to you in your specifc case, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If FSB, for example, is important to you, maybe you should buy based on that, but don't pretend it's the only "objective" variable when it comes to hardware. And by the way, though I will not argue that the PB doesn't have a slower FSB-- I'm sure it does-- these double- and quad-pumped intel FSBs do not always have their performance translate directly when compared to the G4. 400 is not necessarily 2x 200 in a given application, for example. Again, too many variables to be making blunt, blanket statements.

As for your flash example, I replied that there were too many variables to consider, andthat it was far from test conditions. RAM, browser, other open apps, what the person in the store before you did with them, etc. could all have an effect. I also said it looked fine on my computer, only a rev. C 12" PB, no complaints here. Hardware performance is important to me: that's a big part of why I got a Mac, actually, but I don't expect everyone else to feel that way.

I will humbly suggest that you seem overly concerned with receiving "objective" advice, when in fact that applies little in the sorts of discussions we have had in this thread. So much depends on the individuals' use, their needs, their desires, their budget. You seem too ready to see a lack of objectivity in everyone else, when in fact you-- like me or any other consumer-- is operating from their own personal viewpoint, not some magical ground of objectivity on which you alone stand. Your views on macs and who uses them are based on the subjective perspective of someone who hasn't used them a lot. Spend some more time with the computers and I'd guess these generalizations and stereotypes will melt away. I could be wrong, but you have to agree you are not speaking from much experience when it comes to Macs, and that might undermine your attempt at objectivity in your own statements about them and their users. Anyway, I'm not trying to be harsh, I am trying to help, and throwing around "objective" without much care makes that harder to do.

[h0e0h]

That Sony has a Radeon 9700, faster FSB, it's lighter, has a better display... In performance, the Sony will kick the PB in the nuts. In design, the PB makes the Sony look like an ugly toaster oven.




ok... so did you stand in compusa and run a hardware diagnostic test to prove to me that the sony has a better display... or are you just assuming that higher resolution equates to better display? See its things about people who make ignorant comments... if you're going to argue something... why don't you have a personal experience. Do you own this sony in question... probably not. But i'm willing to go out on a limb here to say that the other residents of your trailor park have some beer in the fridge that you can get on. Besides, does the hardware really matter if its blazingly fast or ridiculously slow if its operating a windows OS. Probably not. And had you read my post in its entirity, i wasn't just referring to my 12" PB, but Macs in general. Go get your best alienware PC and i guarantee you won't be thinkin the same when you put it up against that dual 2.5 PM.

But to get back on topic and to hope to salvage this thread from its inevitable home in the wasteland... My 12" has yet to get to small. If you think that it will be, fell free to lug the 15" all across campus, or even the sony for that matter. I know that the 12" is best for my situation, and everyone that has seen it says that if they buy another one, it'll be a 12"er

good luck on your quest to find a suitable computer

[dotdotdot]

decided to check in on this thread and am completely lost :confused:

[Jsmit]

Can anyone find the speed of the Sony's hard-drive?

[Demon Hunter]

Since we're on the subject, mcgarry makes some very valid points, mainly that Macs utilize a completely different architecture from PCs. The G4 uses a very efficient data process, which keeps it in competition with PCs whose numbers get higher but don't see much performance increase.

It's also important to realize that, because of Apple's product lineup and how they release new machines, industry innovations take longer to be used in Macs.

Examples: PCI Express, DDR, Dual-Layer, logical/physical dual threads, SLI to name a few.

However, Mac users also enjoy a lot of industry firsts. They tend to be the more important advances that cause the rest of the industry to follow, such as: 64-bit processing, Bluetooth 2.0, dual processors, the touchpad, etc.

That being said, some users will find exception to a few things. I personally take great exception to the fact Apple still ships a 5200FX with a 2.5 GHz PowerMac.

[Demon Hunter]

if you're going to argue something... why don't you have a personal experience. Do you own this sony in question... probably not. But i'm willing to go out on a limb here to say that the other residents of your trailor park have some beer in the fridge that you can get on.

Those kinds of comments have no place in this thread or on this forum. I do not own the Sony, but it is a well known fact that the Pentium M vastly outperforms the G4 in many respects. Personal experiences and judgements mean nothing... they make poor arguements because they are subjective.

i wasn't just referring to my 12" PB, but Macs in general. Go get your best alienware PC and i guarantee you won't be thinkin the same when you put it up against that dual 2.5 PM.

You were referring to the G4 processor, which the Dual 2.5 PowerMac does not use... keep it up kid, you're on a roll here.

[h0e0h]

You were referring to the G4 processor, which the Dual 2.5 PowerMac does not use... keep it up kid, you're on a roll here.

yes, at first i was referring to the g4 processor which is in the current powerbooks, but then when i mad a comment about alienware, i was referring to the g5s that are in the PMs. That comment was directed towards the hardware and software comparison... not towards powerbooks or processors specifically...

[mcgarry]

Since we're on the subject, mcgarry makes some very valid points, mainly that Macs utilize a completely different architecture from PCs. The G4 uses a very efficient data process, which keeps it in competition with PCs whose numbers get higher but don't see much performance increase.

It's also important to realize that, because of Apple's product lineup and how they release new machines, industry innovations take longer to be used in Macs.
[snip]....

On the subject of laptops and Apple innovation, let's remember they were the first with 15" widescreen and 17" screens. Anybody could have done it, but nobody did, and now everybody does. They were also the first to integrate 802.11b into laptops, years before Centrino came to market. Neither of these are super-inventions on Apple's part-- they didn't invent 15" and 17" LCDs or 802.11x, but their putting them in a laptop first led to serious benefits for laptop users of every platform. I think they were also first to offer a built-in DVD-burner in a laptop (and a thin one at that). Even before this modern stuff, Apple has been huge with firsts in portables. See the recent buzz over the [i]Mobile PC article naming the PB 100 the #1 gadget of all time, for example. So, dferrara, I'm not sure how much your generalizations applies to Apple in general, but I personally wouldn't apply it to their portables.

I also forget to mention earlier that the PB offers Gigabit ethernet and S-video-out, both also absent on the Sony. DVI, too, requires some sort of optional add-on. These might all be totally unimportant to any given user, and I'm not saying they somehow outweigh the magical FSB, but they nonetheless count as "hardware" advantages.

[mcgarry]

Can anyone find the speed of the Sony's hard-drive?

It's 4200rpm. So, since the PBs have 5400 rpm drives, that could tip a serious speed advantage against the Sony. How serious depends on what you do.

[hechacker1]

it's amazing how this forum quickly turns into a PC vs MAC debate. Especially when people like me are looking for information regarding if a 12" is too small.

Thanks to all the people who have kept on subject. I have decided that when the time comes around, I will be getting a 12" powerbook. The 15" might be too big for me to take around the campus comfortably.

Now a quick question. AFAIK, Tiger is going to have an interface that allows the OS to use the GPU for processing power. But, the 12" powerbook has lackluster video performance compared to the 9700.

Do you think that apple will upgrade the video in the 12" to take advantage of the enhanced performance? or will tiger simply make the gap even wider between the 12" and 15" for example?

[mcgarry]

it's amazing how this forum quickly turns into a PC vs MAC debate. Especially when people like me are looking for information regarding if a 12" is too small.

Thanks to all the people who have kept on subject. I have decided that when the time comes around, I will be getting a 12" powerbook. The 15" might be too big for me to take around the campus comfortably.

Now a quick question. AFAIK, Tiger is going to have an interface that allows the OS to use the GPU for processing power. But, the 12" powerbook has lackluster video performance compared to the 9700.

Do you think that apple will upgrade the video in the 12" to take advantage of the enhanced performance? or will tiger simply make the gap even wider between the 12" and 15" for example?

I'd like to think I've been doing a good job staying on AND off topic, all 5 of them we've had in this thread! But anyway ...

The 12" PB GPU will officially support all the Tiger features. Will it perform them as well as the 15"? probably not, as expected. If support expands to include the current iBooks' 9200, the 12" PB should do better than those, on the other side of things. What exactly the differences will be is hard to say at this point, for obvious reasons, though their are GPU comparisons out there you can look up to get an idea. Personally I don't have a deep technical understanding of Tiger's requirements and how they play out with the various GPU characteristics.

I don't think there will be a PB update before Tiger, but who knows. Most here would agree, however, that the next PB updates of the 12" (or whatever the small one is then) will not use the Go5200.

[CaptainCaveMann]

Apple's focus is really on the user and for the vast majority of users how you interact with the product is more important then clock speed and a slew of preformance specs. Ask Apple users how many would go back to pc's. Apple's market share is growing at a rapid pace. The reason, users are tiring of all the additional head aches associated not only with XP but mass produced form factors that are a hodgepodge of uncompatable hardware. Owning a pc just takes more effort. A mac is designed to make the computing experience enjoyable and elegant. Afficandos will always argue for performance numbers while the rest of us just want to buy a machine that works well and is a pleasure to use. Apple has hit its stride and I hope it continues to get better.Why doesnt apple just close the gap and own the world by using p4's and pm's in all its computers???????

[Jsmit]

Why doesnt apple just close the gap and own the world by using p4's and pm's in all its computers???????

Heh... Let's not go there, at least in this thread.

This thread started on as debate between a 12" and 15" PowerBooks based on screen-size. Considering that, I would say we have strayed completely from the original stated purpose of this thread, but this is Southbridge's thread and I respect his (or her) right to guided it in any direction to help him (or her) make a decision that he (or she) will be happy with. I wish that I knew the proper pronoun to use.

To review the Pros of each machine (at least for Southbridge) here are the lists of some Pros. I tried to keep subjective statements in line with Southbridge's expressed beliefs. I personally do not agree with them all.

Sony s360:
better screen
better keyboard
faster processor
better flash performance previously stated site
better GPU
lighter

12" PB combo:
better software
faster hard-drive
higher RAM limit
DVI out
smaller on every dimension
cheaper

I guess that is the objective/subjective list for your particular comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit.

[mcgarry]

12" PB combo:
better software
faster hard-drive
higher RAM limit
DVI out
smaller on every dimension
cheaper

I guess that is the objective/subjective list for your particular comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit.

Good summary. But for the 12", let's not forget BT2 and HD drop protection, while we're at it. On the Vaio side, it has a Memory Stick slot. Plus the option of a DVD-burner for the PB, and it would still stay cheaper (with edu prices vs. CompUSA quoted sale price, otherwise they're about the same price). I'm not saying these things are critical or even necessarily important to Southbridge or not, just in the interests of full objectivity, you know ...

[Platform]

Since we're on the subject, mcgarry makes some very valid points, mainly that Macs utilize a completely different architecture from PCs. The G4 uses a very efficient data process, which keeps it in competition with PCs whose numbers get higher but don't see much performance increase.

It's also important to realize that, because of Apple's product lineup and how they release new machines, industry innovations take longer to be used in Macs.

Examples: PCI Express, DDR, Dual-Layer, logical/physical dual threads, SLI to name a few.

However, Mac users also enjoy a lot of industry firsts. They tend to be the more important advances that cause the rest of the industry to follow, such as: 64-bit processing, Bluetooth 2.0, dual processors, the touchpad, etc.

That being said, some users will find exception to a few things. I personally take great exception to the fact Apple still ships a 5200FX with a 2.5 GHz PowerMac.

Apple does not ship the 2.5 Ghz G5 with the gfx 5200 but the ATi 9600

[Platform]

How good in "real life work" is the Gfx Go 5200 and how much better is the ATi Mobility 9700 :confused:
Also what is the difference between a normal gfx 5200 and a "Go" 5200/ ATi "mobility" series is it just the names or :confused:

[Southbridge]

Heh... Let's not go there, at least in this thread.

This thread started on as debate between a 12" and 15" PowerBooks based on screen-size. Considering that, I would say we have strayed completely from the original stated purpose of this thread, but this is Southbridge's thread and I respect his (or her) right to guided it in any direction to help him (or her) make a decision that he (or she) will be happy with. I wish that I knew the proper pronoun to use.

To review the Pros of each machine (at least for Southbridge) here are the lists of some Pros. I tried to keep subjective statements in line with Southbridge's expressed beliefs. I personally do not agree with them all.

Sony s360:
better screen
better keyboard
faster processor
better flash performance previously stated site
better GPU
lighter

12" PB combo:
better software
faster hard-drive
higher RAM limit
DVI out
smaller on every dimension
cheaper

I guess that is the objective/subjective list for your particular comparison. Feel free to modify as you see fit.

thanks... that helps. So here's what it comes down to for me: Right Machine/Not Quite Right Software vs. Right Software/Not Quite Right Machine (And mcgarry when I say 'right' and 'not quite right' I dont mean for everybody I mean subjectively for me)

and... um... I'm a dude... :cool:

[Southbridge]

well folks... at some point today I'll get a new laptop... Still up in the air as to which one...

[h0e0h]

go up in compusa with the oldest and dirtiest set of clothes you have and ask for a "compruter" and see where they point you... that should be your final decision

good luck BTW... and let us know what you decide to go with

[Demon Hunter]

How good in "real life work" is the Gfx Go 5200 and how much better is the ATi Mobility 9700 :confused:
Also what is the difference between a normal gfx 5200 and a "Go" 5200/ ATi "mobility" series is it just the names or :confused:

Yeah my bad, it does ship with the 9600XT... but the 2.0 GHz still ships with the 5200.

I don't know the exact differences, but the desktop version has a higher clock (5200 Ultra). It's the same with ATi; for example the 9700 Mobility has 4 pixel pipelines and the 9700 desktop version has 8 I believe. The 9700 Mobility translates to a 9600XT on a desktop card, for example.

So, dferrara, I'm not sure how much your generalizations applies to Apple in general, but I personally wouldn't apply it to their portables.

Uh... what? You're making the same point I was. :confused: See the rest of my post.

[attic salt]

I just got my new PB and right now it's only running with 512MB RAM, but I do plan to go up to 2G as soon as possible.

My question is...

I was working on a file last night in Photoshop that is 36in wide x 24in high and 400 ppi...the thing was taking FOREVER to do anything on the Powerbook...on my dell at work it was faster...so I'm a little upset because I didn't expect the PB to be slower, but could this be a result of the low RAM? Would increasing that make it run faster?

:confused: Please help!

[mcgarry]

How good in "real life work" is the Gfx Go 5200 and how much better is the ATi Mobility 9700 :confused:
Also what is the difference between a normal gfx 5200 and a "Go" 5200/ ATi "mobility" series is it just the names or :confused:

I'll pile on to what dferrara said with some more detail that may or may not be helpful ...

Here's one review (http://www.rojakpot.com/default.aspx?location=3&var1=74&var2=0) of the Go5200. Note that their tested version uses only 32MB VRAM, and the testing site lists some other caveats and conditions that may not apply to the PB. I don't know how trustworthy this site is, but at least it's something. Also check out various tests on www.barefeats.com and www.macspeedzone.com for comparisons of the Go5200 and the 9700 as used in the computers we're talking about here.

The general consensus seems to be that while the 9700 is clearly superior by most performance metrics we can throw at it, the aged Go5200 is not all that out of place in a notebook the size of the 12" PB. I have not looked a lot at this, so I could be wrong, but many if not most of the small-ish 12" PC notebooks I've seen still don't even have dedicated GPUs, or have only 32MB VRAM. So compared to other notebooks its size, the 12" doesn't lag too much, at least on paper, in graphics performance. But compared to almost everything larger, the opposite is probably true.

[mcgarry]

thanks... that helps. So here's what it comes down to for me: Right Machine/Not Quite Right Software vs. Right Software/Not Quite Right Machine (And mcgarry when I say 'right' and 'not quite right' I dont mean for everybody I mean subjectively for me)

and... um... I'm a dude... :cool:

No problem, that's the only "right" that matters!

And seriously, the HD speed difference could make up for a lot of the FSB/CPU gains of the P-M in this particular case. I/O can be a much bigger bottleneck in many cases, of course it all depends on what you're doing.

[Southbridge]

No problem, that's the only "right" that matters!

And seriously, the HD speed difference could make up for a lot of the FSB/CPU gains of the P-M in this particular case. I/O can be a much bigger bottleneck in many cases, of course it all depends on what you're doing.

hey man... this is for you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4170591.stm

:p

yeah... but the HD speed only matters when you're loading, copying or saving stuff... not when the program you're using is already in memory

[mcgarry]

hey man... this is for you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4170591.stm

:p

yeah... but the HD speed only matters when you're loading, copying or saving stuff... not when the program you're using is already in memory

whoa wow wait ... some people, somewhere, like some product, made by some company? Stop the presses! This is amazing news!

I know, I'm being a dork about this, it's just I personally don't feel this stuff should have any influence on people's decision as to what computer to buy. Of course, I realize it does. These are computers, tools, machines, after all, and whatever cultural significance someone chooses to attach is entirely up to them. It's so supremely subjective, I just don't think it really has anything to do with what anyone can say to anyone else about buying a particular computer or not. But if this stuff interests you, I know, I should just give it a rest. Sorry for making a big deal out of it, for taking the bait. I won't mention it again in this discussion, and I hope you'll join me, but of course that's totally up to you.

as for the 2nd part, yeah, like I have said all along, it depends on what you're doing.

[Southbridge]

whoa wow wait ... some people, somewhere, like some product, made by some company? Stop the presses! This is amazing news!

I know, I'm being a dork about this, it's just I personally don't feel this stuff should have any influence on people's decision as to what computer to buy. Of course, I realize it does. These are computers, tools, machines, after all, and whatever cultural significance someone chooses to attach is entirely up to them. It's so supremely subjective, I just don't think it really has anything to do with what anyone can say to anyone else about buying a particular computer or not. But if this stuff interests you, I know, I should just give it a rest. Sorry for making a big deal out of it, for taking the bait. I won't mention it again in this discussion, and I hope you'll join me, but of course that's totally up to you.

as for the 2nd part, yeah, like I have said all along, it depends on what you're doing.

you're really offended by the whole marketing aspect huh? Thats interesting... Ok... no more. I was just kidding with posting the link.

ok... I'm off to compUSA.

[mcgarry]

Well, by this thread's standards, this is on-topic, so why not post it:

I just used a friends's Vaio Z1 (http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_VAIO_Z1_series/4507-3121_7-21116464.html?tag=tab) for a while. Yes, it is an older model, but it does have a P-M at 1.3 GHz, FSB at 400MHz, and 1MB L2. The CPU speed is nearly identical, numbers-wise, to my PB, and the FSB and Cache are of course better. Also, his had only 512MB RAM installed, and mine has 768.

My time on it left me wondering why this Vaio felt so dog-slow, and by a LOT, not just slightly. By the numbers, it should have at least felt as good as my PB. And mine doesn't even have the faster HD. We weren't doing anything intense on it, some file copying between partitions, a little iTunes playing, nothing really unusual at all. But this thing was struggling perceptibly, choppy and halting at every task, and launching apps--even just IE-- took forever. General system use was painful. Trying to do more than one thing at once sent the computer lurching.

Also, on a minor note, the speakers on my PB sounded a lot better and more clear to me than those on the Z1, playing both speech and music. Having the third speaker might help, and could be important to some people, though personally I think most use will be when plugged in to a nice set of powered speakers. Still, it's worth mentioning that the PB's built-in speakers are pretty good for their size.

I suspect the spyware/virus program he has running may have been a drain. But we were on a public campus network, so it's probably wise to have it on. Of course they are unnecessary on my PB, and that may translate to a real, tangible advantage even in terms of everyday speed, but that is just one of so many factors to consider when talking about performance.

My point is NOT that because of this experience I will leap to the conclusion that P-M laptops are slower than G4-- I don't at all believe that to be the case. My point, as I've been saying all along about these speed comparisons, is that there are so many variables involved, and we are not talking about anything near test conditions, in my example, or in almost anything you'll find at CompUSA. Different experiences can get different results, and what works for you can be totally different than what works better for others.

Southbridge, I sincerely hope you enjoy your new computer, whatever it is. For the legwork you've put in researching your purchase, you deserve nothing less.

[Southbridge]

Goddamnit! I still cant decide. I started out at CompUSA and now I'm here at the Soho Apple Store posting this on a 12" PB... okay... hypothetical question... (maybe I should start a new thread) If you had to give up one of the following three qualities in a laptop what would it be:


1) Portability/Size/Battery Life
2) OS
3) Screen Quality

You can only choose 2 of the 3.

[mcgarry]

Goddamnit! I still cant decide. I started out at CompUSA and now I'm here at the Soho Apple Store posting this on a 12" PB... okay... hypothetical question... (maybe I should start a new thread) If you had to give up one of the following three qualities in a laptop what would it be:


1) Portability/Size/Battery Life
2) OS
3) Screen Quality

You can only choose 2 of the 3.

Personally, I think 1 is inherenly important to a laptop. If I'm getting a laptop, that has to be a priority, to some extent. 2 is very important to me, as it affects everything I do with the computer in at least some way. You never turn off the OS, within reason. 3 is the least important to me because I have a monitor I can hook up at home for stuff that needs more space (that has turned out to be incredibly rare). My PB functions as a portable desktop replacement, which sometime means just a desktop. I also think screen quality, like everything else, can be subjective. I've played with the X-Brite screens and such (at Best Buy, no less) and wasn't that impressed. I wanted to turn them down in a way that I couldn't, but that's just a personal taste thing, and probably has to do with me not being used to them and maybe not even knowing how to adjust everything about them properly.

[Southbridge]

Personally, I think 1 is inherenly important to a laptop. If I'm getting a laptop, that has to be a priority, to some extent. 2 is very important to me, as it affects everything I do with the computer in at least some way. You never turn off the OS, within reason. 3 is the least important to me because I have a monitor I can hook up at home for stuff that needs more space. My PB functions as a portable desktop replacement, which sometime means just a desktop. I also think screen quality, like everything else, can be subjective. I've played with the X-Brite screens and such (at Best Buy, no less) and wasn't that impressed. I wanted to turn them down in a way that I couldn't, but that's just a personal taste thing, and probably has to do with me not being used to them and maybe not even knowing how to adjust everything about them properly.

this wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you have a 12" powerbook would it?

no... you're right though...

to pose my questions a little differently:

Is it easier to get used to a computer that is a little bulkier and whose battery doesnt last as long?

Is it easier to get used to a computer where the OS is not as engaging?

Is it easier to get used to a computer where it doesn't have the greatest screen?

[mcgarry]

this wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you have a 12" powerbook would it?

no... you're right though...

Well, of course it does. Of course what my priorities are in a laptop has something to do with what I bought: how else did I decide to buy it, even when compared to other Macs? Just as whatever you buy will, in your opinion, suit your needs and priorities best.

[h0e0h]

i'm using the 12" right now and for what im doing (adium x, and forums) i seem to have more than ample space. In your list of 3 though, i would definatley say that number 3 is the least important to me. The most important wouldn't even be size, but simply battery life. Then the OS, then the size. Think about the battery. Being a college student always on the go, especially w/ my PB right next to me, the battery life is more than important. And when i say right next to me, one time i made my GF ride in the back seat because my PB was riding shotgun as i was burning a DVD (for a project that i was on my way to present) and playing iTunes through my stereo. There's my take... good luck man

[CaptainCaveMann]

Anyone know why the 12 inch pb gets hotter than my 12 inch ibook?? Seems odd.

[h0e0h]

Anyone know why the 12 inch pb gets hotter than my 12 inch ibook?? Seems odd.


if i were to speculate its because that aluminum is a better conductor of heat than plastic...

[mcgarry]

Anyone know why the 12 inch pb gets hotter than my 12 inch ibook?? Seems odd.

yeah, like h0e0h said; it's the same reason you can't use the iBook in true clamshell mode -- the plastic does not have the same conductivity qualities.

Check around on the product pages of some high-end external HDs. You'll note that a lot of them are aluminum encased, and tout their heat-dissipating qualities. Some of that's marketing, sure, and trying to match other designs, but there is certainly some truth to it.

On the other hand, I don't think the difference is that major, though my experience with G4 iBooks is minimal. My PB doesn't get that hot compared at least to most PC laptops with which I have experience, although to be fair I almost never use it directly on my lap. The spot that I've noticed gets the warmest is on top, by where the power cord plugs in, and obviously I don't normally have a need to be touching it there.

Also, yeah, maybe just that there's more going on in the PB: faster stuff, etc.

[h0e0h]

The spot that I've noticed gets the warmest is on top, by where the power cord plugs in, and obviously I don't normally have a need to be touching it there.

Also, yeah, maybe just that there's more going on in the PB: faster stuff, etc.


Where my 12" gets the hottest seems to be where the display and the keyboard connect. I don't know why I was touching it, but i was curious after about 4 hours of heavy and continual use and i found that that, and right where the HD seems to rest are the 2 warmest spots.

[Jsmit]

I believe the PB actualy stays cooler inside, because as heOeh said the aluminum conducts the heat away. I would rather the term warmer than hotter since the latter PowerBook revisions never actuaaly get hot.

For a laptop, I would say the screen has to be the least important of the three qualityes you listed... perhaps why I also chose the 12" PB.

I would then give up a little portabily in order to get the OS I wanted. When you enjoy one OS over another the way I enjoy OS X or Windows, you will sacrafice a lot forit.

Are refering to the 15" PB when talking about portability, since the Sony and 12" PB to be about equal in regards to portability? In regards to battery life of the 15" PB remember the batteries are hot swappable meaning you can put the PB to sleep and swap the battery with a fully charged one, then wake it up andyou are where you started. The 12" does not have this function. Only problemis you have to lug that extra battery around.

[h0e0h]

since i started using the iCurve though, the temperature (to the touch) has seemed to decrease significantly. I highly recommend it... i mean it's only 30 bucks from jr.com and i can easily store my vid camera and cardreader under it. I love it, and i love the bluetooth keyboard from apple that i purchased to accompany it. You really should give it a shot.

[CaptainCaveMann]

if i were to speculate its because that aluminum is a better conductor of heat than plastic...The vents on my ibook are huge. Theres one in the back and its a big rectangle of vents. the pb seems like it has smaller vents.

[mcgarry]

The vents on my ibook are huge. Theres one in the back and its a big rectangle of vents. the pb seems like it has smaller vents.

Maybe, the PB itself is also a bit smaller; more importantly, the entire length of the hinge has a vent under it, I don't think you can tell from the pix on the website, but maybe you have seen this. It spans more than half the width of the back of the PB. In any case, since its case conducts-- rather than blocks-- heat, it might not need as many vents. That's why it can operate fully closed, but the iBook needs the kb area to vent still more.

[CaptainCaveMann]

Maybe, the PB itself is also a bit smaller; more importantly, the entire length of the hinge has a vent under it, I don't think you can tell from the pix on the website, but maybe you have seen this. It spans more than half the width of the back of the PB. In any case, since its case conducts-- rather than blocks-- heat, it might not need as many vents. That's why it can operate fully closed, but the iBook needs the kb area to vent still more.Thats so strange. I never feel any heat from my keyboard. :confused:

[CaptainCaveMann]

I didnt want to start a whole new thread for this. So ill just ask it here. My friend has a ti pb 1gh, and he just recently went to the apple store and got a whole new case!? I didnt know this was possible. He said he got it because the paint was chipping. He paid like 300 bucks i think. Can you do this for the aluminum pb to? Isnt there a lot involved in replacing the whole case of a pb?

[jackieonasses]

Thats so strange. I never feel any heat from my keyboard. :confused:But it happens. Okay? The argument on what gets hotter is definitely a tough question to answer. Just use the program "Temperature Monitor" to give a good basis on everything. Every one of your posts has something to do with ibook vs. powerbooks and heat.


The newest of the Powerbooks has MUCH better heat dissipation and the fans come on much less.


kyle

[CaptainCaveMann]

But it happens. Okay? The argument on what gets hotter is definitely a tough question to answer. Just use the program "Temperature Monitor" to give a good basis on everything. Every one of your posts has something to do with ibook vs. powerbooks and heat.


The newest of the Powerbooks has MUCH better heat dissipation and the fans come on much less.


kyleAnd every single one of your posts is bad mouthing somebody else for their post. Get a life dude and stay off my nutz. :rolleyes:

[Southbridge]

ok guys. I bought a laptop. I'll tell you about it later.

[Demon Hunter]

ok guys. I bought a laptop. I'll tell you about it later.

How can you leave us hanging like that!!! :D

Stay tuned for previews from the next episode of Southbridge on FOX...

[h0e0h]

ok guys. I bought a laptop. I'll tell you about it later.


that is pretty freakin wrong...

[mcgarry]

I didnt want to start a whole new thread for this. So ill just ask it here. My friend has a ti pb 1gh, and he just recently went to the apple store and got a whole new case!? I didnt know this was possible. He said he got it because the paint was chipping. He paid like 300 bucks i think. Can you do this for the aluminum pb to? Isnt there a lot involved in replacing the whole case of a pb?

Yes, it can be done, and yes, apparently it is not easy. Search the forums for more info, this has been discussed before a few times. Others have posted their experiences with this elsewhere. Here (http://www.pbfixit.com/cart/catalog/) is a place that sells the parts.

As far as I can tell, there is usually little reason to change the case; it is not a common thing to have to do for any reason other than catastrophic damage, which usually doesn't just damage a case anyway. That applies to all types of cases. The AlBooks do not chip, by the way, with anything approximating reasonable use.

[CaptainCaveMann]

ok guys. I bought a laptop. I'll tell you about it later.More info dude!

[Southbridge]

ok so here's the story... I've spent the last week going in and out of CompUSA trying to decide which frikin laptop to get. Anyways... the past two days I had left the place really being impressed with the Sony Vaio, and I was positive that I was going to buy one today. I go with my friend into CompUSA today, and for some reason the Vaio just didnt seem that good... so I'm like this sucks. So for the hell of it we head down to the Apple store in Soho just to check the 12" and the 15". I mean they're both pretty impressive computers and I posted here at with the 12". Anyways so... I almost get the 12" but the screen really bugs me so I'm like screw this, I'm going home. I'll decide tomorrow. I leave and its snowing and I'm frikin pissed off because honestly I'll have to comprimise something: screen, OS, or portability. I get on the subway and go home. On the subway I'm listening to Morrissey and I decide to get the Sony. But then I think about my PC that I've had for 6 years and I start to feel sorry for it. I start to get sorta emotional that I would want to ditch my computer that has worked hard for me for so long... I thought about it and considered which laptop would I be least likely to ditch my PC for... The 15" was just too nice and crisp and too fast... I'd use it all the time and never my desktop. The Vaio also was too fast and also a PC so I'd totally ditch my old computer. So I finally decided on the 12" because it wasnt THAT good, and because there would still be areas that my desktop would out perform it. So with complete love and respect for my PC I chose the one laptop that I thought wouldnt outperform it. Thus the 12" powerbook.

I suddenly felt calm that my decision had been made, so I hopped off the subway and went back 40 minutes in the opposite direction back to the Apple store and I bought the 12" powerbook.

Now you're thinking to yourself WHAT THE HELL KIND OF DECISIONMAKING IS THAT $h1T?? Essentially the whole time I was looking for the 'Best' computer when in fact I decided in the end that I wanted the most mediocre of the three. I couldnt LOGICALLY make a decision between the three. I had to go purely on an emotional level, and the love of my PC.

I dont know what the hell it was but my decision made sense in the weirdest sort of way. It might of been I think I was kinda losing it after wracking my brain so much between the three...

So... That being said... I am sitting here typing this on my new 12" G4 Powerbook with Superdrive, which I must say KICKS ASS! (why didnt anybody tell me this computer was going to kick ass?) I really love it. So... although I'm sure all of you will probably disagree with the process of my decision (I'm not sure it makes sense at all) I'm really happy with the outcome. I mean thats what matters... right?

[h0e0h]

congratulations. I have this feeling deep down that you will be separating with the PC in the future. Congratulations... in my opinion you made the best choice... but i'm a little biased. Enjoy the new machine...

I would offer my sugggestions for some accessories...
the BT 500 mouse from RadTech.Us
a ScreensaveRz from Radtech
a PowerSleeve from Radtech
a backpack from Targus
an iCurve from jr.com
an Apple BT keyboard

I also went with a card reader and new external HD. Like i said earlier... congratulations... and enjoy... you know that its going to be more than worth your money and time it took to make a decision...

[kretzy]

Congratulations...after all that! LOL

I'm glad to hear that you're thrilled with your new machine!

I hope i will be too once i have mine!! :)

[Platform]

Yeah my bad, it does ship with the 9600XT... but the 2.0 GHz still ships with the 5200.

I don't know the exact differences, but the desktop version has a higher clock (5200 Ultra). It's the same with ATi; for example the 9700 Mobility has 4 pixel pipelines and the 9700 desktop version has 8 I believe. The 9700 Mobility translates to a 9600XT on a desktop card, for example.


Oh thank you.
but how much difference is there in the two cards

[mcgarry]

So... That being said... I am sitting here typing this on my new 12" G4 Powerbook with Superdrive, which I must say KICKS ASS! (why didnt anybody tell me this computer was going to kick ass?) I really love it.

Ok, who slipped this guy the kool-aid?

Congratulations, I hope it works out.

I'll second h0e0h on the iCurve. Search this forum for more comments on it and that BT500, if you're interested, they've ben discussed a lot. Do be sure to pick a good case or sleeve from the many options.

[Jsmit]

I am in trouble? I undersand your twisted logic. That is how I usually make purchase decisions, with my gut. I do all the research, then pick out the information that supports what I want. Any facts that don't support me are incorrect or over exagerated anyway. Congrats...

I believe we did try otell you how nice that machine is. :D

Now what are the odds that he hooks the PC's monitor to the PB and the PC starts collecting dust? Maybe just a KVM switch since he like his PC a lot.

Enjoy.

[Southbridge]

I am in trouble? I undersand your twisted logic. That is how I usually make purchase decisions, with my gut. I do all the research, then pick out the information that supports what I want. Any facts that don't support me are incorrect or over exagerated anyway. Congrats...

I believe we did try otell you how nice that machine is. :D

Now what are the odds that he hooks the PC's monitor to the PB and the PC starts collecting dust? Maybe just a KVM switch since he like his PC a lot.

Enjoy.

nah... I like having two computers and two monitors... (I'm posting from my PC right now) I also like to do gaming and stuff, so my PC is great for that... Thats the beauty of having both platforms. I can pretty much do everything than one can do with computers. If my PC doesnt do something well, my mac will... if my mac doesnt do something well, my PC will... I mean I really do love the PB because it really is beautiful... :D

[Southbridge]

oh and I found a link about the 12" screens for mcgarry

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2005/02/is_apple_using.html

the screen definately isnt as good...

not that I'm complaining. I love my 12" PB...

[mcgarry]

oh and I found a link about the 12" screens for mcgarry

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2005/02/is_apple_using.html

the screen definately isnt as good...

not that I'm complaining. I love my 12" PB...

ummm, I'm not sure what you mean. What exactly did I say about the screen to which this responds? I never said it wasn't the same screen as the iBook (the article doesn't say that it is, by the way). In fact, I've said in the past that I think it is (but I have about as much direct evidence as that site). I have also said the video card being used can have an effect on how the display looks: this would at leats partly explain how the 12" PB would look better than a 12" iB, but not as good as a 15" PB, and so on.

What I have also said is that screen quality has major subjective elements. Not everyone likes x-brite etc. or resolutions above 1024x768 on a 12" screen. And that's still true.

: I just followed the links form the link you posted. It first refers to a French site, which says it heard the news from xlr8yourmac.com. That site had nothing more than a couple user reports (site was down, but cached), including this gem: "As for screen brightness it seems very similar to the iBook, as I have not had much experience with the powerbooks I can't really say if it is much better or worse than other powerbooks." Wow, there's some real investigative reporting.

I think this is a non-story. The news would be if the rev. Ds were getting worse screens than the rev. Cs, in other words if there was a C-->D downgrade, but there is no evidence in any of these posts to support that idea. More likely it is people disappointed with the screen.

Led my macrumors member maya, who some months ago reported that someone who should know the truth told her that the 12" laptops use the same screen, this forum seems to have at least tacitly accepted as fact that the screens are the same. I haven't seen anyone argue based on actual technical knowledge whether or not that is true, although I may have missed it.


I'm glad you are enjoying your new purchase. It was well-researched.

[CaptainCaveMann]

ummm, I'm not sure what you mean. What exactly did I say about the screen to which this responds? I never said it wasn't the same screen as the iBook (the article doesn't say that it is, by the way). In fact, I've said in the past that I think it is (but I have about as much direct evidence as that site). I have also said the video card being used can have an effect on how the display looks: this would at leats partly explain how the 12" PB would look better than a 12" iB, but not as good as a 15" PB, and so on.

What I have also said is that screen quality has major subjective elements. Not everyone likes x-brite etc. or resolutions above 1024x768 on a 12" screen. And that's still true.

I'm glad you are enjoying your new purchase. It was well-researched.I dont really know what hes talking about either. Or why he felt the need to show you that. Its been said time and time again that Apple uses the same screen for the 12 inch ibook and PB. The better video card in the PB might contribute to the idea of the PBs screen looking "brighter", but like mcgarry said its all relative and subjective to each individual user. Everyone sees color and light levels differently. Thats just a fact of basic human anatomy. Personally ive had the 12 inch PB and my 12 inch ibook next to eachother several times and they look exactly the same to me.

[adamjay]

i'm happy that you're happy.
but what happened to all the "the resolution is bad" comments from before about the 12" (not that i agree(d) with you) ?
how do you go from "bad resolution" to "i love my 12" powerbook" ?


re: pb vs. ibook screens.
i will say that my new 1.5ghz 12"'s screen is indeed much brighter than my girlfriend's 1 year old ibook G4 800's screen. That could be because her backlight is dimming. i've compared them side by side, and with three different color calibration settings that match each other on both 'books, i'd say hers is about 2/3's the brightness of my 1.5ghz PB. Could be the newer screens, could be they are diff screens, could be a dimming backlight, could be the fact that she's a smoker... i dunno its just an observation, nothing more nothing less.

[Southbridge]

The fact is I made a tradeoff. The tradeoff was a screen that wasnt as nice as the 15" or the X-Brite. Overall the decision was great because I love the PB 12" and after a while the screen doesnt bother me as I thought it would... If the screen on the 12" had looked like the 15" I think there wouldnt be any thought put into which computer i wanted... but as it is I really had to think about each of them and consider which I really wanted. The 12" was the perfect compromise between the three.

[Southbridge]

ummm, I'm not sure what you mean. What exactly did I say about the screen to which this responds? I never said it wasn't the same screen as the iBook (the article doesn't say that it is, by the way). In fact, I've said in the past that I think it is (but I have about as much direct evidence as that site). I have also said the video card being used can have an effect on how the display looks: this would at leats partly explain how the 12" PB would look better than a 12" iB, but not as good as a 15" PB, and so on.

What I have also said is that screen quality has major subjective elements. Not everyone likes x-brite etc. or resolutions above 1024x768 on a 12" screen. And that's still true.

: I just followed the links form the link you posted. It first refers to a French site, which says it heard the news from xlr8yourmac.com. That site had nothing more than a couple user reports (site was down, but cached), including this gem: "As for screen brightness it seems very similar to the iBook, as I have not had much experience with the powerbooks I can't really say if it is much better or worse than other powerbooks." Wow, there's some real investigative reporting.

I think this is a non-story. The news would be if the rev. Ds were getting worse screens than the rev. Cs, in other words if there was a C-->D downgrade, but there is no evidence in any of these posts to support that idea. More likely it is people disappointed with the screen.

Led my macrumors member maya, who some months ago reported that someone who should know the truth told her that the 12" laptops use the same screen, this forum seems to have at least tacitly accepted as fact that the screens are the same. I haven't seen anyone argue based on actual technical knowledge whether or not that is true, although I may have missed it.


I'm glad you are enjoying your new purchase. It was well-researched.


all I'm saying is that I love my PB, but the screen really is not as nice as even the 15" PB. You'd really have to go and put your 12" next to the 15" to really get a sense of it...

[mcgarry]

all I'm saying is that I love my PB, but the screen really is not as nice as even the 15" PB. You'd really have to go and put your 12" next to the 15" to really get a sense of it...

I'm glad you love your PB. I have used the 15", the previous rev (top at 1.5 GHz). I liked the extra screen space, but as for picture quality I didn't notice a difference. Maybe with more time, use, and/or tests I could tell a difference; I am not denying there is one.

More importantly, the link you posted compares to the iBook ... thus I addressed that comparison, not the one you just mentioned, in the bulk of my post.

[Southbridge]

I'm glad you love your PB. I have used the 15", the previous rev (top at 1.5 GHz). I liked the extra screen space, but as for picture quality I didn't notice a difference. Maybe with more time, use, and/or tests I could tell a difference; I am not denying there is one.

More importantly, the link you posted compares to the iBook ... thus I addressed that comparison, not the one you just mentioned, in the bulk of my post.

:p

[Southbridge]

I'm glad you love your PB. I have used the 15", the previous rev (top at 1.5 GHz). I liked the extra screen space, but as for picture quality I didn't notice a difference. Maybe with more time, use, and/or tests I could tell a difference; I am not denying there is one.

More importantly, the link you posted compares to the iBook ... thus I addressed that comparison, not the one you just mentioned, in the bulk of my post.

but seriously... you have to put one PB next to the other and run some video or something... and you'll see a richness of color and detail on the 15" that you wont on the 12". Same between the 15" and the X-Brite although it's a little more subtle... I'd say the 15" is like between 90-95% as good as the X-brite.

[Passante]

12" powerbook too small after a while?

My 12" powerbook is a year old and has not changed size :eek:

[speleoterra]

I could have purchased any one of the 3 sizes,...
I "LOVE" my 12", Powerbook that is.
Because of it's size, I take it everwheres I go, even if I am not "planning" on using it. Kind of like a an oversized iPod. Then, when I have a few
minutes of waiting for something to happen, I surf if I can or whatever, pack it away and off I go. Besides, the POWERbook has much more suave than an 12" iBook. I once had a cute waitress run her hand over the lid and comment; "Mmmm,...smooth" To which I quickly came back with; "Not as SMOOOOTH as the owner to which she giggled at my flirting. Sweet!

[Southbridge]

great... I found a defect in my 12" screen... the top row of pixels from the center to the right hand side of the screen flickers whenever I go to fullscreen mode (Like in a slideshow or when playing WCIII FT). It looks like a thin flickering bar at the to right hand side of the screen...

Now I have to decide if I want to take it get fixed, get a new one or just suck it up.... :(

[CaptainCaveMann]

I could have purchased any one of the 3 sizes,...
I "LOVE" my 12", Powerbook that is.
Because of it's size, I take it everwheres I go, even if I am not "planning" on using it. Kind of like a an oversized iPod. Then, when I have a few
minutes of waiting for something to happen, I surf if I can or whatever, pack it away and off I go. Besides, the POWERbook has much more suave than an 12" iBook. I once had a cute waitress run her hand over the lid and comment; "Mmmm,...smooth" To which I quickly came back with; "Not as SMOOOOTH as the owner to which she giggled at my flirting. Sweet!Hahaha thats awesome! Did you get her number? Was she hot? Nice job!

[jdebeer]

I've had a 12 for 6 months -- I take it EVERYWHERE and love it. I have a crumpler school hymn sleeve for it, toss that in my briefcase & go. I can't say, because I haven't tried, but I think the powerbook would be a pain to put inside another bag -- in other words, you'll probably want to haul that separately. If that means carrying 2 bags, it will suck. Otherwise you'll have to throw books, etc in your laptop bag. You decide.

[Southbridge]

I've had a 12 for 6 months -- I take it EVERYWHERE and love it. I have a crumpler school hymn sleeve for it, toss that in my briefcase & go. I can't say, because I haven't tried, but I think the powerbook would be a pain to put inside another bag -- in other words, you'll probably want to haul that separately. If that means carrying 2 bags, it will suck. Otherwise you'll have to throw books, etc in your laptop bag. You decide.

I love when people come in at the end of a thread and dont read where the conversation has gone :rolleyes:

[kanpachi]

great... I found a defect in my 12" screen... the top row of pixels from the center to the right hand side of the screen flickers whenever I go to fullscreen mode (Like in a slideshow or when playing WCIII FT). It looks like a thin flickering bar at the to right hand side of the screen...

Now I have to decide if I want to take it get fixed, get a new one or just suck it up.... :(

SouthBridge,
I read through a lot of this thread, but I didn't read through all of it, so I don't know when you bought your PowerBook. Your comment worries me because I just bought a Rev. D 12" PowerBook and I am getting a bit apprehensive about the display issues that may arise after longer periods of usage. How long have you had your PB for?

I don't know how to say this, but quite frankly, I think the display for the 12" PB is pretty darn bad. Compared to PC desktops and ThinkPad laptops that I have used, I think that the screen's quality is inferior to them by comparison. Does anyone have any advice on whether the new 15" PBs have better displays? I won't be doing any design work on this computer or anything crazy like you artists out there, but I am very dissapointed in the display. If the display on this computer was excellent, then I would definitely give this laptop a 10 because it is awesome in all other ways! Man, what would you guys do? The portability and performance of this laptop kicks so much butt, but yet the display is no good. Also, the antialiasing of the fonts make reading much more difficult with respect to the sharp, crisp fonts on Windows machines, though I'm sure there are many of you out there that prefer this "softer" look.

Also, has anyone out there experienced any problems with dead pixels in the new 15" PB? Getting a dead pixel is my worst fear of all, as I'm sure is the same for many of you out there.

[iPlm]

wait... this may be a dumb question but why is it called a 12" powerbook when the specs on this page:

http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index12.html

show the width as 10.9"? :confused:

Dude 12.1" is diagonal screen size.

Edit: Oops, sorry for the post! Didn't see the next pages :)

[Southbridge]

I don't know how to say this, but quite frankly, I think the display for the 12" PB is pretty darn bad. Compared to PC desktops and ThinkPad laptops that I have used, I think that the screen's quality is inferior to them by comparison.
I think so too... but dont let McGarry hear you say that. :rolleyes:

Honestly after a while the 12" screen quality doesnt bother me. It's not beautiful but I can live with it. Basically when I was looking at computers the Vaio XBrite was the best screen. the 15" PB was like 95% as good as the XBrite while the 12" is probably 85% as good. But you only notice it if you put all the screens next to eachother. After a week and a half of using this PB I think the screen is great for what I do with it.

Does anyone have any advice on whether the new 15" PBs have better displays? I won't be doing any design work on this computer or anything crazy like you artists out there, but I am very dissapointed in the display. If the display on this computer was excellent, then I would definitely give this laptop a 10 because it is awesome in all other ways!
No... I think the 15" has a really nice screen. I would have definately gotten the 15" over the 12" but I really wanted something small and portable.

Man, what would you guys do? The portability and performance of this laptop kicks so much butt, but yet the display is no good.
well the screen on the 12" isnt TERRIBLE. If portability is your main issue then I'd definately recommend the 12". I love the size and of course OS X...

Also, has anyone out there experienced any problems with dead pixels in the new 15" PB? Getting a dead pixel is my worst fear of all, as I'm sure is the same for many of you out there.
honestly I think the problem with my 12" is not exactly with the screen but more a minor software glitch. It has to do with rendering fullscreen images that are animated. I think actually it's an OS X problem that nobody really talks about. A lot of powerbooks if you run like iPhoto with the Ken Burns effect or transitioning between photos will flicker in the upper right hand corner. I decided that it was more trouble than it was worth to try to get it fixed. It doesnt really happen that often so... I think I can live with it. But yeah.. it has nothing to do with the screen per se...

[spacehog371]

Looks like I might be a little late on this one...but I have the 15" al powerbook and I carry it in the brenthaven backpack made specifically for it. It works perfect and the backpack can fit nearly everything I need it to. Plus it feels like and looks like a normal backpack.

[mcgarry]

Southbridege,
Yes, you know how I feel about the 12" PB screen, and about x-brite; anyone else who's interested, just read this wonderful, brief, consistently on-topic thread we're in.

As for the flicker, I have never seen an issue like you describe on my rev. C 12". I don't play games, but I use full screen with iMovie, DVD Player, and others, and have never had that problem.

[Southbridge]

As for the flicker, I have never seen an issue like you describe on my rev. C 12". I don't play games, but I use full screen with iMovie, DVD Player, and others, and have never had that problem.

yeah... it doesnt do it with imovie or a dvd player... try it with iPhoto with the Ken Burns affect, or without it right when the pictures fade in and out with each other and tell me if you see like a pixel flutter in the upper right hand side of the screen...

[true777]

I bought the 12" Superdrive about a year ago because of its portability, and almost from day one found the screen to be too small, and the whole Powerbook to look and feel more like a consumer laptop than a pro-level machine. I got so sick of the 12" that just a month after I bought it I sold it and bought a 15" Superdrive model. I have had the 15" for almost a year now and couldn't be happier. The 15" really makes the 12" look like a toy. The 12" screen is just too small for serious work, and there are so many other features that are more professional in the 15" than in the 12" (say, lack of PCI expansion slot, etc).

The 12" really is more of an iBook with a silver enclosure IMHO.
I would definitely spend the few hundred extra dollars to get a a serious workhorse with an adequate screen. Plus, the 15" is really just about as easy to carry around - ther difference in effort is minimal. And it looks so much more elegant since it's slimmer.

[Lacero]

12" PB really is only good for web surfing, emails, and general purpose computing. The screen size limits which types of apps you could run comfortably. Not comfortably would include pro apps such as FCP, DVD Studio Pro, Motion, Photoshop or even After Effects. You'll spend so much time moving around windows, that it becomes more work.

A 15" is the perfect size for professional work.

I use my 12" mainly for the things as described above, plus as an encoding machine and for audio capture and DVD burning. The LCD screen is not good enough for serious photoshop work.

[itsbetteronamac]

OK... I am in a little bit of a deliema. I right now have my own iMac 17" G4800. And, it is totally cool, and fast enough for me. I am going to be traveling a lot this summer and am getting a job at a coffee shop this semister, and am now thinking about notebook. I was going to wait for a 15" G5 PB, as a desktop replacement, but I want an notebook for the summer. if i get a powerbook this sumer, I would most likely give up my imac and make it a family computer (I am 14). And, I could still use my imac at home when ever i wanted.

So, my question is do i get the 12" or the 15"? I really like the portability, and the price of the 12", but I like the screen size and backlit keyboard of the 15". I really don't want to spend the more than $2000 w/ extras, and I would go over that with the 15". So, is the extra screen size and the backlite really worth it?

[shane-o-mac]

OK... I am in a little bit of a deliema. I right now have my own iMac 17" G4800. And, it is totally cool, and fast enough for me. I am going to be traveling a lot this summer and am getting a job at a coffee shop this semister, and am now thinking about notebook. I was going to wait for a 15" G5 PB, as a desktop replacement, but I want an notebook for the summer. if i get a powerbook this sumer, I would most likely give up my imac and make it a family computer (I am 14). And, I could still use my imac at home when ever i wanted.

So, my question is do i get the 12" or the 15"? I really like the portability, and the price of the 12", but I like the screen size and backlit keyboard of the 15". I really don't want to spend the more than $2000 w/ extras, and I would go over that with the 15". So, is the extra screen size and the backlite really worth it?

This is an age old debate my man. A familiar debate for me. Ultimatley you will make the final call, but from my experience this is the conclusion I made:

I too loved the display on the 15", the richness and fullness of text and screen realestate is amazing. Often comparing the 12 inch next to the 15" is just unfair to the smaller computer for ..well..obvous reasons. But when it comes time to lay down cold hard cash you really invest yourself into why you need in a machine vs. what you want. The backlit keyboard is nice, but for many unessecary if you touch type because you never really look at the keyboard and in most cases the screen light is enough (but man-o-man it is such a cool feature.) The size and portablility often become the key issues. Yeah sure I can carry the 15 inch around with me, I debated that for a while. But when push comes to shove loading a large machine like that in you bag day in and out and being sure to bring the powerbrick is not as practical as just throwing the 12inch in a sleave and right in your bag. The size and batterly life make it ideal for portability. As far as the screen I have learned to master the zoom in features and expose. I do only veiw text and dvds which the screen works very well with. I also realized for the cash I saved I could load up on the much needed acessories most people do not buget for. Yeah the 15 inch is nice! But the 12inch fits the bill for a vast majority of people's needs and a beautiful machine as well! But it is your money, go with your instincts. Either way you end up with great systems. I now look forward to saving up for an Imac next year!!

[itsbetteronamac]

This is an age old debate my man. A familiar debate for me. Ultimatley you will make the final call, but from my experience this is the conclusion I made:

I too loved the display on the 15", the richness and fullness of text and screen realestate is amazing. Often comparing the 12 inch next to the 15" is just unfair to the smaller computer for ..well..obvous reasons. But when it comes time to lay down cold hard cash you really invest yourself into why you need in a machine vs. what you want. The backlit keyboard is nice, but for many unessecary if you touch type because you never really look at the keyboard and in most cases the screen light is enough (but man-o-man it is such a cool feature.) The size and portablility often become the key issues. Yeah sure I can carry the 15 inch around with me, I debated that for a while. But when push comes to shove loading a large machine like that in you bag day in and out and being sure to bring the powerbrick is not as practical as just throwing the 12inch in a sleave and right in your bag. The size and batterly life make it ideal for portability. As far as the screen I have learned to master the zoom in features and expose. I do only veiw text and dvds which the screen works very well with. I also realized for the cash I saved I could load up on the much needed acessories most people do not buget for. Yeah the 15 inch is nice! But the 12inch fits the bill for a vast majority of people's needs and a beautiful machine as well! But it is your money, go with your instincts. Either way you end up with great systems. I now look forward to saving up for an Imac next year!!

OMG,thanks so much! That was exactly the response I was looking for. I think that I will go with the 12", (if I get one ;-)) And I am really looking for something I can just tote around with me for most of the day, even if I don't plan on using it much. And, I feel that the 15" would just be to much of a burden, if I was to carry it around all the time.

[adamjay]

indeed. i think 12" PB and iBook users are the most fluent in the language of Expose'

;)

[adamjay]

The 12" screen is just too small for serious work, and there are so many other features that are more professional in the 15" than in the 12" (say, lack of PCI expansion slot, etc).

last i checked there's never been an apple laptop with a PCI expansion slot.
and i doubt there ever will be. the cards are pretty big.

unless of course you mean pcmcia cardbus?

as far as the 15" PB being more "professional"
only if you have a superiority complex. its what you do with your tool, not what tool you use.

[h0e0h]

what would you need a PCI card for anyway?

[mcgarry]

yeah... it doesnt do it with imovie or a dvd player... try it with iPhoto with the Ken Burns affect, or without it right when the pictures fade in and out with each other and tell me if you see like a pixel flutter in the upper right hand side of the screen...

I tried iPhoto (4.0.3), and I did see it .... sometimes. It didn't happen every time, but during some of the transitions between photos, I noticed a slight 1-pixel-height flutter in the upper right.

I don't think this is a big deal, but it is a bug, and shouldn't be happening. However, I would be surprised if it was that model-specific, and not an iPhoto problem, since I don't see it in other fullscreen applications.

If you haven't already, maybe you could start a thread outside this forum (maybe in general tech discussion, or software) specifically about this.

[Southbridge]

I tried iPhoto (4.0.3), and I did see it .... sometimes. It didn't happen every time, but during some of the transitions between photos, I noticed a slight 1-pixel-height flutter in the upper right.

I don't think this is a big deal, but it is a bug, and shouldn't be happening. However, I would be surprised if it was that model-specific, and not an iPhoto problem, since I don't see it in other fullscreen applications.

If you haven't already, maybe you could start a thread outside this forum (maybe in general tech discussion, or software) specifically about this.

thats it. I'm taking it back.

[mcgarry]

thats it. I'm taking it back.

Seriously? for what reason exactly (did Apple tell you it was not something they'd fix)? for what in exchange?

did you ever start another thread about it?

I tried the Warcraft III demo that came with my PB, and had no pixel issues even in the highest settings. I really think this is an iPhoto issue, but I guess if you've seen it elsehwere ...

[Southbridge]

Seriously? for what reason exactly (did Apple tell you it was not something they'd fix)? for what in exchange?

did you ever start another thread about it?

I tried the Warcraft III demo that came with my PB, and had no pixel issues even in the highest settings. I really think this is an iPhoto issue, but I guess if you've seen it elsehwere ...

i'm going to take it back and get the sony vaio instead...

[h0e0h]

i'm going to take it back and get the sony vaio instead...


bad idea in my opinion, but that's ok... i'm happy w/ my 12". Good luck man...

[Chrispy]

i'm going to take it back and get the sony vaio instead...

I tried going back to a windows PC for awhile after Apple reallllly pissed me off. I couldn't stay away... I now own a 12" powerbook again. I say sleep on it before you jump to any conclusions. Whatever you do I hope it makes you happy in the end :)

[mcgarry]

i'm going to take it back and get the sony vaio instead...

Sorry to hear that.

Vaio con dios.

[matticus008]

Sorry to hear that.

Vaio con dios.

Ha! I was about to correct your Spanish, and then I realized the joke.

I must say that I figured that he would end up with the Vaio, but the last straw being a flickering pixel in iPhoto (for what it's worth, Windows XP does the same thing in the top left corner on my now-decommissioned Dell Latitude when running any OpenGL screensaver) greatly entertains me. I mean no offense to the OP, of course, because sometimes all it takes is just one more little thing before you can't stand something anymore. I hope the Sony serves him well.

[Southbridge]

Sorry to hear that.

Vaio con dios.

Just kidding. :p

I think if this computer broke in two I probably still wouldnt take it back... I'm that attached to it...

Yeah... the screen thing is pretty minor. I can live with it... :)

[Chrispy]

Just kidding. :p

I think if this computer broke in two I probably still wouldnt take it back... I'm that attached to it...

Yeah... the screen thing is pretty minor. I can live with it... :)

Haha... don't scare us like that :eek:

[tricki]

I tried iPhoto (4.0.3), and I did see it .... sometimes. It didn't happen every time, but during some of the transitions between photos, I noticed a slight 1-pixel-height flutter in the upper right.

I don't think this is a big deal, but it is a bug, and shouldn't be happening. However, I would be surprised if it was that model-specific, and not an iPhoto problem, since I don't see it in other fullscreen applications.

If you haven't already, maybe you could start a thread outside this forum (maybe in general tech discussion, or software) specifically about this.

hi....I have the new rev D 12" PB too and noticed that same flickering when i use iPhoto....brought it back to apple and they said it was due to iPhoto itself....wrote a feedback and they just redirected me to their support website which did not help........has anyone gotten a definite explanation from apple regarding this issue?

[Southbridge]

hi....I have the new rev D 12" PB too and noticed that same flickering when i use iPhoto....brought it back to apple and they said it was due to iPhoto itself....wrote a feedback and they just redirected me to their support website which did not help........has anyone gotten a definite explanation from apple regarding this issue?

yeah... i dunno... i called up tech support and they gave me a lot of BS... Its not just iPhoto because it also happens when I boot like WCIII Frozen Throne... I think it has to do either with the video driver or Quartz which does the video rendering... i mean I can live with it, but I wish they'd fix it...

[Southbridge]

yeah... i dont know how good apple service and support is...

[mleok]

I've had a 15" Rev A Powerbook on loan for over a year and a half, and I recently had to buy a replacement machine because I had to return it. I tried out a 12" iBook G4 for a few months, and I finally ended up selling that and buying a 12" Powerbook instead.

My reasoning for this is that performance-wise, the 12" Powerbook and the 15" Powerbook is comparable, and the main difference is the screen real estate. I found that I primarily used my 15" Powerbook as a desktop replacement, hooked up to a Dell 2005FPW 20" LCD screen, and as such, for my purposes, a 12" machine would be most cost effective, since I have the portability I crave on the road, while having the ability to drive a large display while I'm back at my desk.

I am aware that there is a hack to allow the iBook to drive an external monitor, but it would only allocate 16 MB of VRAM to the external, making it very choppy when used with Expose. In addition, when connected to an external display, I prefer to use my machine in clamshell mode, thereby disabling the internal display. With the hack, the iBook display is off, but it is still logically there, meaning that it is possible to move your mouse pointer to a phantom off-screen position, which I found to be quite a disorienting experience.

Ultimately, the decision on 15" vs. 12" depends on a number of factors, whether you have an external monitor, and whether your application needs differ substantially on the road vs. the desktop.

If you're like me, and my on the road needs typically involve giving presentations, and minor editing of documents, and office productivity applications, and with most of the graphics intensive work done in the office, then the 12" might be a good fit for you. This seems to be a typical experience for students and academics.

If on the other hand, you're a graphics professional who needs to be able to run creative applications on the road, then a 15" or 17" Powerbook would make far more sense.