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NoSmokingBandit
Jun 6, 2011, 02:28 PM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:

Lets say something goes horribly wrong and i have to reinstall my OS. It happens to the best of us. Instead of popping in my Lion disc and installing like normal i'll have to...

1) Install Snow Leopard
2) update to the newest 1.6.X if my disc version is before the App Store was introduced.
3) Download Lion (~an hour depending on one's connection)
4) Install Lion
5) Update Lion

This could take a large part of your afternoon.

If there were a disc i'd simply:

1) Install Lion
2) Update Lion

and be done in an hour or so.

I suppose for people who have full Time-Machine backups they could just restore and keep going, but i find that backing up everything wastes space so i just back up personal files and media.

Anyway, thats just my thoughts on it, flame away.



aramosc
Jun 6, 2011, 02:31 PM
I agree with you.. theres a peace of mind that having the disc or usb flash drive that a appstore download doesn't

r0k
Jun 6, 2011, 02:33 PM
I agree. Lion should be available on a disc. I assume it will and that app store only thing is a trial to see who is willing to go that way. I just reloaded OS X on a machine last week after upgrading the HDD and I would hate to have to through 3 "hoops" as you describe, though I should also mention that there are rumors that if you have use a Time Capsule as your router, updates are cached so the download time is drastically reduced.

Here's another scenario...

Do I shell out $29 per itunes account in my house or simply buy the family pack dvd and update them all?

rorschach
Jun 6, 2011, 02:35 PM
Well, there is a Recovery partition, which should be fine in most cases. The only issue is if you replace your hard drive.

Maybe it's possible to clone the Recovery partition onto a DVD. Seems like that would work.

harlem
Jun 6, 2011, 02:36 PM
the fact that lion is only going to be available trough the app store is just ridiculous and mega ignorant!

just to give a fact...i have some close friends in south America and know for a fact that for example they can't even get there hands on a credit card or visa card...due to policies for people with low income, how are the less fortunate going to get there hands on a copy of the new OS when they don't even are allowed access to the app store?

once again this proofs Apple is probably the most ignorant company around.

astroot
Jun 6, 2011, 02:37 PM
the fact that lion is only going to be available trough the app store is just ridiculous and mega ignorant!

just to give a fact...i have some close friends in south America and know for a fact that for example they can't even get there hands on a credit card or visa card...due to policies for people with low income, how are the less fortunate going to get there hands on a copy of the new OS when they don't even are allowed access to the app store?

once again this proofs Apple is probably the most ignorant company around.

How did they get a Mac in the first place?

r0k
Jun 6, 2011, 02:38 PM
Another possibility is that Apple (or a 3rd party) provides a utility to burn your own recovery DVD.

dukebound85
Jun 6, 2011, 02:39 PM
How did they get a Mac in the first place?

could be gifts, craigslist or a variety of other ways

What about people under 18 who cant have credit but do have jobs?

Blipp
Jun 6, 2011, 02:39 PM
While I totally agree that Lion's availability being limited to the AppStore has some pretty strong negative implications we don't know the whole story yet. All Apple has to do is allow the downloading of the Lion .dmg from the AppStore so we can burn our own DVDs if we want and all of our concerns go away in one sweep.

bigjnyc
Jun 6, 2011, 02:39 PM
How did they get a Mac in the first place?

cash money :D

astroot
Jun 6, 2011, 02:42 PM
cash money :D

Likely true : )

But I was really referring to the "low income" part of that post. If you're identified as "low income" you might want to look at a cheaper option than a Mac.

RafaelT
Jun 6, 2011, 02:43 PM
It sounds bad right now but I think we all need to wait for the full story before passing judgment. There may be an easy way to make some sort of recovery disk or something of that nature.

harlem
Jun 6, 2011, 02:43 PM
How did they get a Mac in the first place?

i was expecting these kind of intelligent reply's :rolleyes:

they buy them just like you do...Its not that those people are dead broke they do have money its just that in certain country's (same goes for allot of north african country's by the way) you need to have a certain amount of income or certain amount of savings money to get a credit card or visa.

Phil A.
Jun 6, 2011, 02:44 PM
i was expecting these kind of intelligent reply's :rolleyes:

they buy them just like you do...Its not that those people are dead broke they do have money its just that in certain country's (same goes for allot of north african country's by the way) you need to have a certain amount of income or certain amount of savings money to get a credit card or visa.
Can't they use iTunes vouchers if they don't have a CC?

SanderEvers
Jun 6, 2011, 02:44 PM
But wouldn't you be able to download OSX Lion through the App Store, and then burn it to a Disc yourselfs?

astroot
Jun 6, 2011, 02:44 PM
could be gifts, craigslist or a variety of other ways

What about people under 18 who cant have credit but do have jobs?

When I was young and needed a credit card for some purchase, I had my parents purchase it and I paid them back. Easy solution.

dukebound85
Jun 6, 2011, 02:45 PM
When I was young and needed a credit card for some purchase, I had my parents purchase it and I paid them back. Easy solution.

regardless, it is an additional barrier that wasn't there before....

yetanotherdave
Jun 6, 2011, 02:46 PM
Even worse, if you have a snow leopard upgrade disc, you have to install leopard, upgrade to snow leopard. update snow leopard, d/l lion, update.

Hellhammer
Jun 6, 2011, 02:47 PM
What about people under 18 who cant have credit but do have jobs?

You don't need a credit card. I'm 17 and I have my Visa Electron in iTunes. I got it when I was like 13.

Even worse, if you have a snow leopard upgrade disc, you have to install leopard, upgrade to snow leopard. update snow leopard, d/l lion, update.

There is only one SL disc. The "upgrade" version can be used to perform a clean install.

stefan1975
Jun 6, 2011, 02:51 PM
i think this is just plain annoying, i am getting a vertex3 SSD next month and was waiting for lion to come out and do a fresh install.

i don't like doing upgrades at all and prefer clean OS installs anyway, but now i have to install snow leopard 10.6.x and then upgrade to 10.6.8 with the @#%$#$% app store integrated which i cannot disable even if wanted to and after that upgrade to lion.

that will take the better part of a day, leave unwanted traces of the old OS versions, fragmentation and i don't even know how my SSD will like that process, my OSX 10.6 disc doesn't even support TRIM so i am hoping at least that will fix itself during the install.

i just hope that there will be bootable downloads available after the release like the dev previews are now. I am more then willing to pay EUR 23 for lion but i *really* don't want the hassle of doing multiple upgrades.

any thoughts if this will be fixed?

stefan

siurpeeman
Jun 6, 2011, 02:51 PM
Instead of popping in my Lion disc and installing like normal i'll have to...

1) Install Snow Leopard
2) update to the newest 1.6.X if my disc version is before the App Store was introduced.
3) Download Lion (~an hour depending on one's connection)
4) Install Lion
5) Update Lion


not to disagree with your point, but it's likely the downloaded version of lion will be the most up to date, eliminating the need to install then update.

jav6454
Jun 6, 2011, 02:54 PM
It should be on a disc because not everyone can download 4GB in less than 5 hours... I can, but can average Joe on a T-1ish line can? Or for that matter people on Satellite connections or slow DSL setups?

Not to mention people who are still on dial-up... although if you are on dial-up its time to upgrade (seriously)

RRmalvado
Jun 6, 2011, 02:55 PM
I am confident that Apple will have a utility to create a USB or DVD copy from the downloaded version.

yetanotherdave
Jun 6, 2011, 02:58 PM
You don't need a credit card. I'm 17 and I have my Visa Electron in iTunes. I got it when I was like 13.



There is only one SL disc. The "upgrade" version can be used to perform a clean install.

I've needed to install leopard and update before. It was very annoying.

Cole JM
Jun 6, 2011, 03:02 PM
I am confident that Apple will have a utility to create a USB or DVD copy from the downloaded version.

This is my thought too.

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 6, 2011, 03:04 PM
I've needed to install leopard and update before. It was very annoying.

You could have saved yourself the trouble. SL upgrade disks are indeed full retail verisons.

OllyW
Jun 6, 2011, 03:10 PM
I've needed to install leopard and update before. It was very annoying.

You could have saved yourself the trouble. SL upgrade disks are indeed full retail verisons.

If you have a Drop-In DVD version that came in the box with Macs sold just after Snow Leopard came out, the installer will search the hard drive for Leopard (or Snow Leopard) before it lets you install the OS.

eagandale4114
Jun 6, 2011, 03:11 PM
could be gifts, craigslist or a variety of other ways

What about people under 18 who cant have credit but do have jobs?
App store gift cards.

NoSmokingBandit
Jun 6, 2011, 03:39 PM
I'm hoping the download is a bootable DMG and not a PKG. That would make it soooo much nicer, but still not great for those with slow connections. Apple better have their servers ready on launch day or it is going to get ugly.

MacTech68
Jun 6, 2011, 03:56 PM
I have another scenario to ponder.

Ma & Pa Kettle have an Intel iMac, shipped with 10.4.x. They've not purchased Leopard or Snow Leopard and won't in the next few months.

They then learn about Lion and decide to "take the plunge".

If Apple follow they're usual path, the previous version of MacOS will not be available for purchase. They don't know anybody else with a Mac.

What can they do?

Sure, IF they knew somebody running 10.6, surely they could purchase a downloadable/burnable/bootable disk image, but they don't.

Sure, they could purchase a second hand or old stock from the usual places ( eBay, CraigsList etc) but shouldn't Apple offer a path directly, ie physical media?

I agree with several posters that we don't yet know the full details, but the info so far does raise a few questions.

wikus
Jun 6, 2011, 04:01 PM
Most Canadians have a 25gb bandwidth cap and $2.00/gb over charge, and not everyone has 5Mbit connection, the fastest connection speed in my area is 2Mbit, therefor, 250kbps download speeds.

This is disgusting.

hugodrax
Jun 6, 2011, 04:06 PM
MAybe the next gen Apple computers will come with no optical drive.

To do a clean install you do a netboot which connects to icloud and downloads OS X Lion

Bear
Jun 6, 2011, 04:10 PM
I have suggestions for everyone who has a slow connection or a bandwidth cap.
If you have one near by, go in to your local Apple Store and ask if it's okay for you to bring your system in to download Lion when it is released and explain why.
Provide feedback to Apple via Mac OS X - Feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html). Remember to be polite and state your concerns.
Do both. Be polite. Maybe if Apple hears it from enough people, they will also provide the option to buy a physical copy. Do it soon so Apple can respond soon (maybe).

MacTech68
Jun 6, 2011, 04:15 PM
I wonder if the wording here is key.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/how-to-buy/

"To upgrade on day one:" (emphasis is mine).

After "day one", perhaps physical media will be available. Apple is just taking the opportunity to push it out digitally as soon as the gold master is finalized? :confused:

Phil A.
Jun 6, 2011, 04:16 PM
I wonder if the wording here is key.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/how-to-buy/

"To upgrade on day one:" (emphasis is mine).

After "day one", perhaps physical media will be available. Apple is just taking the opportunity to push it out digitally as soon as the gold master is finalized? :confused:

I noticed that too, and tend to agree with you: I'm sure it will be available on DVD eventually

bamf
Jun 6, 2011, 04:20 PM
I have another scenario to ponder.

Ma & Pa Kettle have an Intel iMac, shipped with 10.4.x. They've not purchased Leopard or Snow Leopard and won't in the next few months.

They then learn about Lion and decide to "take the plunge".

If Apple follow they're usual path, the previous version of MacOS will not be available for purchase. They don't know anybody else with a Mac.

What can they do?

Sure, IF they knew somebody running 10.6, surely they could purchase a downloadable/burnable/bootable disk image, but they don't.

Sure, they could purchase a second hand or old stock from the usual places ( eBay, CraigsList etc) but shouldn't Apple offer a path directly, ie physical media?

I agree with several posters that we don't yet know the full details, but the info so far does raise a few questions.

Exactly the scenario I was about to post. Surely there will be something later that comes on physical media.

I wonder if the wording here is key.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/how-to-buy/

"To upgrade on day one:" (emphasis is mine).

After "day one", perhaps physical media will be available. Apple is just taking the opportunity to push it out digitally as soon as the gold master is finalized? :confused:

I think you may be right.

The other scenario here is what do corporate Mac shops do - have each machine download the Lion installation separately. That's not going to be an option. There just has to be physical media available at some point.

ThE.MeSsEnGeR
Jun 6, 2011, 04:25 PM
But wouldn't you be able to download OSX Lion through the App Store, and then burn it to a Disc yourselfs?

that IS the problem: downloading the OS! it's over 4GB! I'm on a limited bandwidth DSL service (3GB per month!!) with a speed of 30KB/s :mad:

It should be on a disc because not everyone can download 4GB in less than 5 hours... I can, but can average Joe on a T-1ish line can? Or for that matter people on Satellite connections or slow DSL setups?

Not to mention people who are still on dial-up... although if you are on dial-up its time to upgrade (seriously)

exactly.... [refer to the comment of the previous quote]

I wonder if the wording here is key.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/how-to-buy/

"To upgrade on day one:" (emphasis is mine).

After "day one", perhaps physical media will be available. Apple is just taking the opportunity to push it out digitally as soon as the gold master is finalized? :confused:

I really do hope you are right!! *cross fingers*

TheAppleDragon
Jun 6, 2011, 04:26 PM
I see three things happening here:

1) Users who will burn copies of Lion to a disc and sell it online.
2) Users who will turn to illegal sites because they cannot get the Mac App Store in the first place.
3) Users will never get Lion.

I should say SOME users, not all. Odds are that the amount of users who can and cannot get Lion the normal way are near or at half and half. Nevertheless, it does seem foolish for Apple to not release a DVD.

Perhaps at a later date, they will release a version of the MAS that is compatible with Leopard? That might not work out since the apps would be of different comparability, but it would be nice for those who cannot get the App Store.

Or at the very least a download link from the Apple Store.

This is of course assuming a disc is never released officially.

qacjared
Jun 6, 2011, 04:26 PM
Exactly the scenario I was about to post. Surely there will be something later that comes on physical media.



I think you may be right.

The other scenario here is what do corporate Mac shops do - have each machine download the Lion installation separately. That's not going to be an option. There just has to be physical media available at some point.

Solution: Mac Box Set. It was upgraded for iLife '11. Why not for new version of OS X and the new iWork Demoed?

bamf
Jun 6, 2011, 04:29 PM
Solution: Mac Box Set. It was upgraded for iLife '11. Why not for new version of OS X and the new iWork Demoed?

I already own iLife and iWorks - I don't want to pay for those again. That's not a real solution unfortunately.

There will have to be a separate retail set for Lion at some point. Day 1 - I get that it will only be available digitally, but a few weeks in it will have to be on DVD.

qacjared
Jun 6, 2011, 04:35 PM
I already own iLife and iWorks - I don't want to pay for those again. That's not a real solution unfortunately.

There will have to be a separate retail set for Lion at some point. Day 1 - I get that it will only be available digitally, but a few weeks in it will have to be on DVD.

I was proposing it was a solution to the problem presented by MacTech68, for those without Snow Leopard. But I imagine it would work for that situation as well.

bamf
Jun 6, 2011, 04:37 PM
I was proposing it was a solution to the problem presented by MacTech68, for those without Snow Leopard. But I imagine it would work for that situation as well.

Got ya. It would fix the 10.4/10.5 crowd - unless they've already paid for iLife and iWorks and are happy with the version of those applications they are currently running.

Cougarcat
Jun 6, 2011, 04:43 PM
I'm hoping the download is a bootable DMG and not a PKG. That would make it soooo much nicer, but still not great for those with slow connections. Apple better have their servers ready on launch day or it is going to get ugly.

It's a PKG, but there's a dmg you can extract inside.

baryon
Jun 6, 2011, 04:44 PM
This is how I imagine it:

You download the 4 GB file, launch it, and it creates a recovery partition. That recovery partition acts as an install DVD, containing the Lion install and Disk Utility. With that you can format or upgrade your OS, the same as with a DVD. Is this not the way it was already with the preview?

linuxcooldude
Jun 6, 2011, 04:51 PM
While I can see the down side of this, I see a lot of benefits as well. Pay just one price and install as many macs as you own. Currently I have 4 of them so I only pay one price.

Doing it as a download, keeps costs down. No packaging costs or distribution to stores ect.

Depending on how they are downloaded, I'm wondering if it will prevent hackintoshes from using lion.

Its too easy to get pay as you go credit cards, so not getting access to app store is moot.

iCheddar
Jun 6, 2011, 05:00 PM
The two major problems I see with Mac Store only for Lion is that

A) Leopard users are forced to upgrade to Snow Leopard via disc (so they can get the App Store), then they've got to download and upgrade to Lion.

B) You're left with no options for doing an install to a fresh HDD. Apple has touted that with Time Machine, after a drive failure you can simply pop in a new drive into your machine, and restore your data...but how the devil are you supposed to get the OS onto that new drive? Not only that, but what about people that upgrade their machines with new drives? In the Macbook Pro line and Mac Pro line are considered user serviceable, and HDD upgrades are common. Are they honestly going to force users to install 10.6 and then 10.7?!

At the end of the day, I'm all for making Lion available via the cloud, I think it's the best way for people to get the new OS...but there are certain situations in which that physical copy of the OS would be needed, even by the average user.

slb
Jun 6, 2011, 05:16 PM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:

Lets say something goes horribly wrong and i have to reinstall my OS. It happens to the best of us.

Lion sets up a recovery partition during installation. The world is moving away from physical media.

Fuchal
Jun 6, 2011, 05:17 PM
I'd imagine they're doing this through the App Store because they're planning on shipping SSDs with new Macs going forward, which (at least the Apple ones) have a very low failure rate and are unlikely to be replaced with an empty drive.

dukebound85
Jun 6, 2011, 05:19 PM
Lion sets up a recovery partition during installation. The world is moving away from physical media.

A recovery partition does no good if your hdd fails...

Besides, I cant recall the last time I just installed a the same os over what I had and not change out a hdd

Saturn1217
Jun 6, 2011, 05:19 PM
IMHO I think apple will release a dvd (or usb) version later. For all of the just in case situations that people immediately realized. Literally every forum on the mac os x lion release that I have looked through today (and it has been too many) looks exactly like this thread with everyone going OMG I can't download 4gb or ZOMG what if my hard drive crashes etc.

I find it VERY hard to imagine that in all the time apple spent working on this OS the situations EVERYONE here and on all the other tech forums immediately thought of did not occur to them. Although of course they probably also should have foreseen this response to their presentation today hmmm....

I'm not usually one to defend apple. They make plenty of mistakes but I really do believe that in this case we will at least have the option of making our own bootable version of lion and some kind of physical media will be available eventually cause otherwise they will have to sell physical media of an older operating system indefinitely which wouldn't make sense...(I'm on tiger/leopard and I missed 10.6 but I want lion)

What is more interesting is that this strongly suggests apple will be killing optical drives in the rest of the laptop line soon! (I have mixed feelings about this but overall I think it should be a good thing)

newfoundglory
Jun 6, 2011, 05:22 PM
Its going to be fine. You will be able to restore the disk image to an external hdd or burn to a dvd, and boot from those. I did this will the developer preview and installed it on my mac mini server which has no optical drive. Okay for personal/private use, but the problem is it doesnt solve (legally) how I install it on the non-internet connected macs at work. I am thinking that dvd's will probably be made though business and volume license channels.

MacTech68
Jun 6, 2011, 05:27 PM
...I find it VERY hard to imagine that in all the time apple spent working on this OS the situations EVERYONE here and on all the other tech forums immediately thought of did not occur to them. Although of course they probably also should have foreseen this response to their presentation today hmmm......

I whole-heartedly agree. I think in the process of attempting to produce a "wow" factor in being able to get Lion BEFORE physical media is pressed, boxed & shipped, that Apple discounted the "OMG I can't blah" factor. I think it was a calculated risk and one that hasn't paid off.

The sad result is more panic about the announcement than "wow" response. :(

Physical media still seems to be important to the majority of users when it's a Major OS. Apps are a different kettle of fish. Perhaps there should be a new phrase coined for "AppStore Phobia" ;)

jw2002
Jun 6, 2011, 05:30 PM
The app store option will be impossible for OS X computers that are never connected to the open internet. An example would be a mac in a classified US government or contractor facility.

Idgit
Jun 6, 2011, 05:41 PM
I hope the hidden recovery partition can be disabled. Because hidden partitions are perfect places to hide malware.

:eek:

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 6, 2011, 05:42 PM
I think the words "To upgrade on day one" could indicate that there will be a physical option coming sometime after.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/how-to-buy/

blackburn
Jun 6, 2011, 05:50 PM
I really hope that there's and install media. I don't have a credit card (bank want's to give me one, but expenses for a student are too much to be justified), there aren't itunes gift cards for sale. So either somebody buys lion and I get an illegal copy or I have to wait for an official media.
But let's hope when 10.7.2 gets released it has already it the stores, I really doubt that the only path will be the app store.

J@ffa
Jun 6, 2011, 05:54 PM
The early adopters (that's most of us!) are almost certain to already have Snow Leopard. They'll jump on, grab the release, and then a fortnight/month later, physical copies will be in stores. There'll have to be a way for Apple to provide physical copies to people — as has already been said, slow/non-existent internet connections, mass installs and so on. The other indication of this is the precedent that was set with Snow Leopard — once it was available, Apple stopped selling Leopard. If they discontinue Snow Leopard in the same fashion, they'll have no way to upgrade or reinstall people in store. Blowing someone off with 'You can download it off the Mac App Store' when without an OS they might not have a way of doing so is silly.

What could happen is that the physical copy is a fair amount more expensive ($49.99, perhaps). That'd incentivise people to get it from the MAS if possible and accomodate Leopard —> Lion switchers.

iLucas
Jun 6, 2011, 06:00 PM
I think it should be on a disc for those of us that do not have the best internet connection and have a bandwidth cap, and like me do not live near an apple store. The closest one for me is a solid 3 hour drive. I hope the posters before me are right and it does indeed come on DVD

rmbrown09
Jun 6, 2011, 06:17 PM
I would bet that the lion installer you download will in fact be a dmg. In which case you need just restore the dmg to a USB via Disk Utility or burn it on your own DVD.

Basically this cuts out you having to go buy this at the store, but you do need to use your own DVD.. if you want a bootable copy.

MacinJosh
Jun 6, 2011, 06:41 PM
The world is moving away from physical media.

Hmm... The world I live in currently has no unlimited internet connection, mine is capped at 2.5GB for $100. Speed is about 80kbps, yes, kilobits.

So, how the heck am I supposed to download a 4GB OS?

Now, I am *from* the world you're talking about, but I hate when third-world countries that are starting to have a significant internet userbase get shafted with this kind of progress. Everything is dropbox this, dropbox that, cloud this, cloud that. I wasn't exactly jumping for joy with the iCloud announcement.

I'm all for this sort of development but let's not let the superfast unlimited internet connections "cloud" our eyes to the fact that a significant portion of the world still has a mediocre internet infrastructure. Apple needs to cater for both.

Here's a good example. I had my sister download the 4.3.1 iOS update for both my iPhone and iPad as it was impossible for me to get them here (I had a 500MB cap then). She put it in a flash drive and sent it by mail. After a long wait I received the flash drive and excitedly started to update. Well, turned out that by the time I received the flash drive, iOS 4.3.3 had arrived and there's no way of course that Apple will let you install an older iOS on your device even though it would have been an upgrade for me, not a downgrade. Thanks Apple!

baryon
Jun 6, 2011, 06:46 PM
B) You're left with no options for doing an install to a fresh HDD. Apple has touted that with Time Machine, after a drive failure you can simply pop in a new drive into your machine, and restore your data...but how the devil are you supposed to get the OS onto that new drive? Not only that, but what about people that upgrade their machines with new drives? In the Macbook Pro line and Mac Pro line are considered user serviceable, and HDD upgrades are common. Are they honestly going to force users to install 10.6 and then 10.7?!

Yeah that's strange. What if Lion has the ability to create a restore disk, or a restore partition on an external drive (even a USB pen drive) that you can use to do basic things such as restore from Time Machine, Disk Utility, or even contain the 4GB of OS install files to reinstall the OS from scratch? Maybe this function could be already in Disk Utility somehow? Can't you just turn the downloaded disk image into a bootable USB drive already somehow?

If not, I'm sure a 3rd party will instantly come up with a simple solution that will turn the downloaded package into a bootable USB drive.

iamspoonbender
Jun 6, 2011, 06:58 PM
A four gig download is horrendous. An idea would be to set it up like a torrent. It would make things alot easier. Granted, I know, apple will never do this. Instead, we'll be sitting at home waiting for about three hours for the download to finish. I really hope they release a dvd. I'm happy to pay twice the price for a physical copy.

Cougarcat
Jun 6, 2011, 07:43 PM
The app store option will be impossible for OS X computers that are never connected to the open internet. An example would be a mac in a classified US government or contractor facility.

USB drive?

A four gig download is horrendous. An idea would be to set it up like a torrent. It would make things alot easier. Granted, I know, apple will never do this. Instead, we'll be sitting at home waiting for about three hours for the download to finish. I really hope they release a dvd. I'm happy to pay twice the price for a physical copy.

4 GB is nothing. It's the size of a small game nowadays. Steam handles big game launches with file sizes of 9GB+ just fine, and I routinely get dl speeds of 1+Mbps, all without torrenting. (Gabe Newell of Valve was asked about torrents once, and he said that they decided it wasn't necessary.)

It will be the same with Apple. They didn't build that data center for nothing.

lewis82
Jun 6, 2011, 07:46 PM
You don't need a credit card. I'm 17 and I have my Visa Electron in iTunes. I got it when I was like 13.

It's not available everywhere. I was dependent on my parents for all my purchase until last year, when I got 18. My credit union doesn't have that kind of card.

joelovesapple
Jun 6, 2011, 07:47 PM
USB drive?



4 GB is nothing. It's the size of a small game nowadays. Steam handles big game launches with file sizes of 9GB+ just fine, and I routinely get dl speeds of 1+Mbps, all without torrenting. (Gabe Newell of Valve was asked about torrents once, and he said that they decided it wasn't necessary.)

It will be the same with Apple. They didn't build that data center for nothing.

Quoted for TRUTH.

Also you don't need to burn to ISO because from what I understand, there is going to be a recovery partition which is created once you have downloaded Lion.

They have also said in the keynote that you only need to download it once.
:apple:

lewis82
Jun 6, 2011, 07:50 PM
Quoted for TRUTH.

Also you don't need to burn to ISO because from what I understand, there is going to be a recovery partition which is created once you have downloaded Lion.

They have also said in the keynote that you only need to download it once.
:apple:

Is it going to be installed via Wi-Fi? The transfer speed is so slow, it's going to be insanely long unless you have 802.11n (I don't) or use an ethernet cable.

joelovesapple
Jun 6, 2011, 07:52 PM
Assuming you have a router which you wirelessly connect to, which is connected to your ISP, it would be retrieved through there and then wifi/ethernet to your computer, depending on how you're connected.

A fast connection to your ISP would help though. ;)

swingerofbirch
Jun 6, 2011, 07:54 PM
I agree that it doesn't make sense.

The Mac App Store is for apps, not operating systems. If anything, it should be through Software Update, which is more the right place, although I realize it doesn't have a mechanism to accept credit cards.

I was planning on replacing my MBP's hard drive this summer and was going to buy the Lion Box Set to get the newest iLife (and was hoping there would be a new iWork, as well) to install on the new drive. Fresh and clean.

Now, unless Apple gives users a way to burn a disc of the download (which is a bit funky even if they did let you do that, a bit "Windows" like), I suppose I would have to install Snow Leopard on the brand new hard drive, update Snow Leopard to get the Mac App Store, and then buy Lion. Roar! That makes me angry. Plus I wouldn't get to install iLife and iWork at the same time.

I think for a lot of people not having a disc doesn't make sense, but I think for people upgrading hard drives, it particularly does not make sense and is a step backward. If they don't offer an alternative, I think I'll even have to buy a copy of Snow Leopard as they last time I looked, I couldn't find any copies around the house.

Not only that, the Mac App Store is NOT ready for the onslaught of downloads. If you need evidence of the lack of customer support from the Mac App Store, I can post long threads of e-mails I have had with them over account bugs I have experienced. The Mac App Store customer support is horrible. The only support is by e-mail, and the problem is that they simply don't read the e-mails! They send me canned responses that have nothing to do with the issue I wrote in about. I have stopped buying from the Mac App Store because I have had so much trouble updating apps I have bought (it really is buggy for me), and I also don't like that I can't download demos. I have found it a far better experience to download directly from developers who offer demos in some cases and much more reliable updating.

swingerofbirch
Jun 6, 2011, 07:58 PM
Quoted for TRUTH.

Also you don't need to burn to ISO because from what I understand, there is going to be a recovery partition which is created once you have downloaded Lion.

They have also said in the keynote that you only need to download it once.
:apple:

But if you can't burn to ISO, how do you install on a new drive?

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 6, 2011, 07:58 PM
Spectacular demonstration of ignorance coming from people with super-fast unlimited connections here... Guess what : in the world outside there are places where the internet is super-shi**y and totally limited.

SerrQ
Jun 6, 2011, 08:13 PM
If apple is gonna make Lion only available on app store, at least make all country able to use the app store.

I live in Iceland and there's not even Iceland on the app store. So, how are we gonna be able to install Lion? Currently i set my adress to US, don't even know if I'm able to put my credit card number on that account because its an Icelandic credit card..!

That's the reason why I'm not using the App Store.

lewis82
Jun 6, 2011, 08:14 PM
Assuming you have a router which you wirelessly connect to, which is connected to your ISP, it would be retrieved through there and then wifi/ethernet to your computer, depending on how you're connected.

A fast connection to your ISP would help though. ;)

You obviously didn't get what I meant ;)

You said: Also you don't need to burn to ISO because from what I understand, there is going to be a recovery partition which is created once you have downloaded Lion.

They have also said in the keynote that you only need to download it once.

I wasn't talking about the download part. Rather, I was referring to the installation on multiple computers.

According to you, one doesn't need to burn the disk image nor to download multiple times. But how does one transfer the file from one computer to another in an efficient way, that everyone can do? AirDrop isn't on 10.6, 802.11g (the most common) is way too slow and using ethernet isn't the most practical way. There is the good old sneakernet, but it's not very typical of Apple.

wangkom
Jun 6, 2011, 10:54 PM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:

Lets say something goes horribly wrong and i have to reinstall my OS. It happens to the best of us. Instead of popping in my Lion disc and installing like normal i'll have to...

1) Install Snow Leopard
2) update to the newest 1.6.X if my disc version is before the App Store was introduced.
3) Download Lion (~an hour depending on one's connection)
4) Install Lion
5) Update Lion

This could take a large part of your afternoon.

If there were a disc i'd simply:

1) Install Lion
2) Update Lion

and be done in an hour or so.

I suppose for people who have full Time-Machine backups they could just restore and keep going, but i find that backing up everything wastes space so i just back up personal files and media.

Anyway, thats just my thoughts on it, flame away.

I totally agree. This is one of the downsides on being part of the cult of the Mac. Jobs tells us how we should use our computers and we're just supposed to cheer every time he takes away our options.

Jagardn
Jun 6, 2011, 11:25 PM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:

Lets say something goes horribly wrong and i have to reinstall my OS. It happens to the best of us. Instead of popping in my Lion disc and installing like normal i'll have to...

1) Install Snow Leopard
2) update to the newest 1.6.X if my disc version is before the App Store was introduced.
3) Download Lion (~an hour depending on one's connection)
4) Install Lion
5) Update Lion

This could take a large part of your afternoon.

If there were a disc i'd simply:

1) Install Lion
2) Update Lion

and be done in an hour or so.

I suppose for people who have full Time-Machine backups they could just restore and keep going, but i find that backing up everything wastes space so i just back up personal files and media.

Anyway, thats just my thoughts on it, flame away.

You should not need all those steps...
Boot to SL DVD
Disk utility, format the drive
Restore from backup(Time Machine Disk)
Done.
Just did it with my wifes Macbook after installing a new HDD last week.
Her's was just an upgrade and had nothing wrong with the OS.

Even after all you described, its still easier than re-installing Windows.:D

SavMBP15
Jun 6, 2011, 11:26 PM
not to disagree with your point, but it's likely the downloaded version of lion will be the most up to date, eliminating the need to install then update.

I am here to disagree on your point. Why? Because manyof the apps on the App store are not the most current versions of software out there. Apple or third party vendors.

Cougarcat
Jun 6, 2011, 11:33 PM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:

Lets say something goes horribly wrong and i have to reinstall my OS. It happens to the best of us. Instead of popping in my Lion disc and installing like normal i'll have to...

1) Install Snow Leopard
2) update to the newest 1.6.X if my disc version is before the App Store was introduced.
3) Download Lion (~an hour depending on one's connection)
4) Install Lion
5) Update Lion

This could take a large part of your afternoon.



You are forgetting about the recovery partition. Reboot into the partition, click "reinstall lion," (wait as it downloads, this part would suck--maybe it will be able to see the installer if you have it on a usb stick) done.

In the event of a total hard drive failure, as I've said before, I think Apple wants you to take it to them to fix. I don't like this at all.

You should really consider backing up all your stuff. Hard drives are dirt cheap and it makes it so much easier to restore in the case of hard drive failure.

dirt farmer
Jun 7, 2011, 12:11 AM
Ok, so it's $29.99 from the App Store; but after "day one", what do you think it will cost on DVD??

iCheddar
Jun 7, 2011, 12:11 AM
You should really consider backing up all your stuff. Hard drives are dirt cheap and it makes it so much easier to restore in the case of hard drive failure.

The backup doesn't matter if you're dealing with drive failure because you have no way to get the OS on the replacement drive to then pull the backup from.

Also, I know that Apple has greatly expanded their retail offerings in the past decade, but it's just foolish to think that a customer will be able to bring their Mac in for something common enough like drive failure. I live in the midwest, I'm at least a 5 hour drive from a corporate Apple store, and a 3 hour drive from an authorized retailer (we have 3 in the state). Do they honestly expect me to mail in my machine when its out of warranty to get a drive replaced and have 10.7 installed on it?

siurpeeman
Jun 7, 2011, 12:15 AM
I am here to disagree on your point. Why? Because manyof the apps on the App store are not the most current versions of software out there. Apple or third party vendors.

i honestly don't have a lot of experience with mac app store apps, but the ios app store will only download the most up to date versions. it's curious it wouldn't be the same for mac apps.

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 12:21 AM
The backup doesn't matter if you're dealing with drive failure because you have no way to get the OS on the replacement drive to then pull the backup from.

You would if you had a superduper clone, but that's not as convenient as Time Machine and almost no one will have one. But I was talking about full backups in general being a good idea, not about addressing this specific issue.


Also, I know that Apple has greatly expanded their retail offerings in the past decade, but it's just foolish to think that a customer will be able to bring their Mac in for something common enough like drive failure. I live in the midwest, I'm at least a 5 hour drive from a corporate Apple store, and a 3 hour drive from an authorized retailer (we have 3 in the state). Do they honestly expect me to mail in my machine when its out of warranty to get a drive replaced and have 10.7 installed on it?

I agree, this is a problem.

ErikGrim
Jun 7, 2011, 12:29 AM
Ok, so it's $29.99 from the App Store; but after "day one", what do you think it will cost on DVD??

$129 going by the difference between physical Aperture and App Store Aperture.

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 12:49 AM
Ok, so it's $29.99 from the App Store; but after "day one", what do you think it will cost on DVD??
$129 going by the difference between physical Aperture and App Store Aperture.

Watch the keynote, 34:56, then come back.

I don't think they could have made it any clearer.

MacinJosh
Jun 7, 2011, 01:53 AM
Watch the keynote, 34:56, then come back.

I don't think they could have made it any clearer.

Could you please tell us what it says? My crappy internet won't let me watch it...

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 02:00 AM
Could you please tell us what it says? My crappy internet won't let me watch it...

Schiller says that in the past, OS X has always been on a DVD, and he has every DVD release on the screen. Then he said Lion was going Appstore-only, as the DVDs behind him disintegrated. "That allows us to make it the easiest upgrade you've ever seen." 4GB download, the size of an HD movie. Installs in place.

Tech198
Jun 7, 2011, 02:19 AM
It better be only a trial thing otherwise i won't be there.

As I said in another post, if Apple charges $10 extra for the disc (I think this could be why its cheaper), then I would be happy to be that..... ok,, so i'm basically paying the same price then i got for 10.6, but hey,..... the disc is everything.

Unless Lion in the Mac App install can be prevented, and it downloads a dmg image you can burn, this would be good, but still... you need an OS there to even do that, or access to another mac. so ya i agree. disc is the only way to go. Bootable usb key etc is also good, but without the OS (particularly on a blank hard drive) your stuffed.

swingerofbirch
Jun 7, 2011, 02:23 AM
Maybe we should start a petition for an optical disc option, or a boycott of the download version. When Apple announced the original iMac with a 33.6K modem, it received enough feedback that it switched it to a 56k modem before its actual release.

MacinJosh
Jun 7, 2011, 02:38 AM
Schiller says that in the past, OS X has always been on a DVD, and he has every DVD release on the screen. Then he said Lion was going Appstore-only, as the DVDs behind him disintegrated. "That allows us to make it the easiest upgrade you've ever seen." 4GB download, the size of an HD movie. Installs in place.

Thanks mate!

Well, seems like bad news for me.

However, I find it *highly* unlikely that Apple would drop physical media just like that. It would be conceivable that they phaze it out bit by bit. One way of doing it is not talking about it. I'm sure down the road there will be ways to buy a DVD with Lion on it. They will just not market it.

If they don't come up with any way for us backward people to get Lion, they are *forcing* us into piracy. Ok, ok, we could buy the thing from the AppStore and then have someone torrent it for us and send it over on a DVD.

All that said, my money is on a Lion DVD being available down the road otherwise Apple would really be hurting themselves. The day when Apple doesn't provide physical media for their applications is the day when they start shipping computers without optical drives.

MacinJosh
Jun 7, 2011, 03:12 AM
I though I'd add some more thoughts on the Lion distribution method based on Apple's history.

All of Apple's OSes up until 7.5 were on floppies. IIRC OS8.0 and up were CD only. No transition with OS8 available on floppies as well as CDs. This was understandable because of the sheer amount of floppies required to install the OS.

I'm not entirely sure when installation DVDs becames available but at least Jaguar (10.2), Panther (10.3) and Tiger (10.4) were available on DVDs as well as CDs to cater for those with no DVD drives. Leopard was the first OS to be DVD-only. That's an example of Apple transitioning distribution methods.

With Leopard and Snow-Leopard being DVD-only and then jumping to Lion which supposedly is download-only makes no sense and does not follow Apple's style.

Other examples of Apple transitioning is with PowerPC/Intel. Tiger was the first to support Intel and was a hybrid system. Leopard was the same. Only in Snow Leopard did Apple drop PowerPC support.

I'm just trying to make sense of this.

EDIT: I guess it boils down to how Apple looks at Lion. Is it an *update* or a full blown OS? All incremental OSX updates have been download only unless I'm mistaken. Some combo updates are fairly hefty in size, over a GB.

So if it's an "update" for Snow Leopard then I guess I can't expect an installation DVD. If it's meant to be a full-blown OS in it's own right then it's a mafor inconvenience for many folks.

superAl1394
Jun 7, 2011, 03:17 AM
I though I'd add some more thoughts on the Lion distribution method based on Apple's history.

All of Apple's OSes up until 7.5 were on floppies. IIRC OS8.0 and up were CD only. No transition with OS8 available on floppies as well as CDs. This was understandable because of the sheer amount of floppies required to install the OS.

I'm not entirely sure when installation DVDs becames available but at least Jaguar (10.2), Panther (10.3) and Tiger (10.4) were available on DVDs as well as CDs to cater for those with no DVD drives. Leopard was the first OS to be DVD-only. That's an example of Apple transitioning distribution methods.

With Leopard and Snow-Leopard being DVD-only and then jumping to Lion which supposedly is download-only makes no sense and does not follow Apple's style.

Other examples of Apple transitioning is with PowerPC/Intel. Tiger was the first to support Intel and was a hybrid system. Leopard was the same. Only in Snow Leopard did Apple drop PowerPC support.

I'm just trying to make sense of this.

I think its a bit of a power play. Remind people the mac app store is there, thumb their noses at Comcast and the like, plus its Apple being 'advanced' and 'cool'.

Also; to reduce costs. This will be significantly cheaper for Apple.

Remember that Linux has been distributed via the internet since the dawn of time, and Windows Vista and 7 were available as downloads. (7 wider than Vista by a large margin though)

linuxcooldude
Jun 7, 2011, 04:13 AM
All that said, my money is on a Lion DVD being available down the road otherwise Apple would really be hurting themselves. The day when Apple doesn't provide physical media for their applications is the day when they start shipping computers without optical drives.

Window OEM PC's haven't had install disks for years. Usually have a hidden partition. But often it will let you make back up disks.

Apple not putting optical disks in their computers may not be that far off.

Blues003
Jun 7, 2011, 04:45 AM
Apple is trying to end the need for optical physical media in their lines. The iTunes store, the iTunes-match service, the MBA keynote's reference "This is the laptop of the gureu", and now this... all of that is too much to ignore.

I think Apple will eventually be forced to provide some sort of physical media, simply because installing on new Hard Drives isn't supposed to be an issue to anyone.

I think they will eventually give it out. However, they won't do it from the start. I also believe they might give it in the form of a USB flash drive, instead of a DVD, just like do with Snow Leopard in their MBAs:

a) To allow MBAs to update.
b) To better "justify" an (even) higher price on the physical copy than on the App Store (flahs drives are more expensive than DVDs), and thus slightly demotivate people from buying it.
c) To somehow justify an hypothetical Optical Disk Drive removal from their laptop lines.

AQUADock
Jun 7, 2011, 04:49 AM
Hmm... The world I live in currently has no unlimited internet connection, mine is capped at 2.5GB for $100. Speed is about 80kbps, yes, kilobits.

So, how the heck am I supposed to download a 4GB OS?

Now, I am *from* the world you're talking about, but I hate when third-world countries that are starting to have a significant internet userbase get shafted with this kind of progress. Everything is dropbox this, dropbox that, cloud this, cloud that. I wasn't exactly jumping for joy with the iCloud announcement.

I'm all for this sort of development but let's not let the superfast unlimited internet connections "cloud" our eyes to the fact that a significant portion of the world still has a mediocre internet infrastructure. Apple needs to cater for both.

Here's a good example. I had my sister download the 4.3.1 iOS update for both my iPhone and iPad as it was impossible for me to get them here (I had a 500MB cap then). She put it in a flash drive and sent it by mail. After a long wait I received the flash drive and excitedly started to update. Well, turned out that by the time I received the flash drive, iOS 4.3.3 had arrived and there's no way of course that Apple will let you install an older iOS on your device even though it would have been an upgrade for me, not a downgrade. Thanks Apple!
I have the same problem, if apple think that there too "cool" for physical media then they will not be getting there money from me, and if they keep on being inconsiderate and short sighted like this than the mac im on now will be the last.

kppolich
Jun 7, 2011, 04:50 AM
x2 for the flash-drive. it would even help out the people who want the next gen macbook/pros to get rid of the optical drive for more battery/performance/storage.

Weaselboy
Jun 7, 2011, 04:56 AM
If the Lion DL from the app store creates a recovery partition as we have been told, it seems like it would be fairly simple to create a USB thumb drive image of the recovery partition and that could be used for a new drive install.

silexh
Jun 7, 2011, 05:06 AM
Window OEM PC's haven't had install disks for years. Usually have a hidden partition. But often it will let you make back up disks.

Apple not putting optical disks in their computers may not be that far off.

Not having a disk with your computer can be a real pain - in case of a hard disk failure all is lost. I think it's very important to either have a physical disk or a burnable image, I don't mind downloading the latter, though I still think a physical disk is required for the majority of the people.

Giuly
Jun 7, 2011, 05:16 AM
You want Lion on a DVD? Seriously?

I may introduce you to the year 2011, we have much faster and dirt cheap USB sticks. :rolleyes:


Besides, Lion in the App Store comes as bootable DMG, which you can restore to any hard drive/USB stick/DVD DL you want.

MacinJosh
Jun 7, 2011, 05:32 AM
You want Lion on a DVD? Seriously?

I may introduce you to the year 2011, we have much faster and dirt cheap USB sticks. :rolleyes:


Besides, Lion in the App Store comes as bootable DMG, which you can restore to any hard drive/USB stick/DVD DL you want.

You should really read the thread fully to get an answer to your question. Not all of us have superduperhighspeed internet...

vladi
Jun 7, 2011, 05:33 AM
You want Lion on a DVD? Seriously?

I may introduce you to the year 2011, we have much faster and dirt cheap USB sticks. :rolleyes:


Besides, Lion in the App Store comes as bootable DMG, which you can restore to any hard drive/USB stick/DVD DL you want.

DVD is still cheaper than stick right? There is no reason to take one 8GB stick (you cant use 4GB) format it as sys drive and store it away.

Like you said DMG will probably be able to go to straight to a stick or a disc so I wouldn't be worried. If for some reason that doesn't happen I am sure people on internetz will find a way to do it :)

lars666
Jun 7, 2011, 06:53 AM
Is this already fact that you will be able to create a bootable copy from the download? Would be important also e.g. when repairing the system hard disk with the "Utility" program after a kernel panic / hard reset ... And if I sell my computer, will I be able to sell it with "Lion" too, or will it stay connected to my Apple ID / password - worst case: The new owner doing illegal pirating stuff with it - or even NEED my Apple ID / password to "activate"?

rikscha
Jun 7, 2011, 07:11 AM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:

Lets say something goes horribly wrong and i have to reinstall my OS. It happens to the best of us. Instead of popping in my Lion disc and installing like normal i'll have to...

1) Install Snow Leopard
2) update to the newest 1.6.X if my disc version is before the App Store was introduced.
3) Download Lion (~an hour depending on one's connection)
4) Install Lion
5) Update Lion

This could take a large part of your afternoon.

If there were a disc i'd simply:

1) Install Lion
2) Update Lion

and be done in an hour or so.

I suppose for people who have full Time-Machine backups they could just restore and keep going, but i find that backing up everything wastes space so i just back up personal files and media.

Anyway, thats just my thoughts on it, flame away.

only problem with that is, it is not going to be like that. there is going to be a much more elegant solution.

yugushen
Jun 7, 2011, 07:28 AM
I am confident that Apple will have a utility to create a USB or DVD copy from the downloaded version.

This should be the way for people who can't purchase from Mac App Store.

beosound3200
Jun 7, 2011, 08:29 AM
im absolutely positive that >90 % of the mac users wont have problems updating their systems, apple wont wait for all those 'legacy' users to update their systems and habits and thats good.

also, i think yesterday we were all witnesses of death of the optical drive, at least in macbooks and macbooks pro, and that makes me very happy :)

Blues003
Jun 7, 2011, 08:38 AM
also, i think yesterday we were all witnesses of death of the optical drive, at least in macbooks and macbooks pro, and that makes me very happy :)

After such an iTunes-store success, A Optical Drive-less MBA, Snow Leopard as a USB Flash Drive, and quotes such as "this is the future of notebooks" on the MBA Keynote, boy do I wish you're right!

jyoung96
Jun 7, 2011, 08:45 AM
when you buy a mac, what's going to be in the box? at least they should offer usb drive versions

Riemann Zeta
Jun 7, 2011, 09:02 AM
I don't know why everyone is so thrilled about no longer having the option of a disc or an optical drive in their computer. What does it hurt to have the ability to read optical discs or reinstall the OS if need be? Also, if Lion requires registration with an Apple ID in order to install or use, then Apple just effectively killed off the Mac as a platform in business, research and development, educational and lab settings. Moreover, what will become of new Apple machines: will they require over-the-air activation before being usable, like iOS devices? Will Apple machines no longer come with real OS discs and instead only have the half-assed "hidden system reimage" partition like cheap Windows machines?

Blues003
Jun 7, 2011, 09:07 AM
I don't know why everyone is so thrilled about no longer having the option of a disc or an optical drive in their computer. What does it hurt to have the ability to read optical discs or reinstall the OS if need be? Also, if Lion requires registration with an Apple ID in order to install or use, then Apple just effectively killed off the Mac as a platform in business, research and development, educational and lab settings. Moreover, what will become of new Apple machines: will they require over-the-air activation before being usable, like iOS devices?

It's not about not having the option of having a disc. It's about the implications: the hypothetical removal of Optical Drives in their laptops, and use of that space for a bigger battery, a dedicated GPU in the 13'' case, a SSD (SO +Apps) + HDD (Files) hybrid combo, a lighter laptop overall, an improved cooling system... any one of those would be far more likely with the removal of the ODD. And for more useful as well.

jnpy!$4g3cwk
Jun 7, 2011, 09:15 AM
lion should really be on a disc ...

+1

AQUADock
Jun 7, 2011, 09:22 AM
im absolutely positive that >90 % of the mac users wont have problems updating their systems, apple wont wait for all those 'legacy' users to update their systems and habits and thats good.

also, i think yesterday we were all witnesses of death of the optical drive, at least in macbooks and macbooks pro, and that makes me very happy :)

I think your wrong, your missing the big picture. How about other people around the world with slow capped internet connections? If they want to kill optical media, fine but at least give us a usb stick so the other say 50% of the world can update to lion easily.

Apple Expert
Jun 7, 2011, 10:11 AM
If they don't put it on DVD, at least offer it on USB like the MBA.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 7, 2011, 10:43 AM
Optical disc aside, it simply seems foolish that an OS would be distributed as a .app file, would require a credit card and an ultra-fast internet connection to install or use and cannot be installed without a pre-existing Snow Leo partition. These requirements ensure that Lion cannot be used in an institutional or lab environment and officially ends the viability of Mac OS as a corporate/educational/government workstation OS.

Of course, Microsoft seems to be taking a similar approach with Windows 8. What the hell happened to the multi-function, multitasking workstation OS? Contrary to what Steve thinks, some people still need and/or want a real workstation computer rather than just an iPad.

NoSmokingBandit
Jun 7, 2011, 11:46 AM
only problem with that is, it is not going to be like that. there is going to be a much more elegant solution.

Based on what? Throwing around buzz words like "elegant" doesnt mean anything.

I'm almost certain Apple will put it on disc eventually (after enough people complain), but until then it will be a huge PITA.

Patrick J
Jun 7, 2011, 12:07 PM
Based on what? Throwing around buzz words like "elegant" doesnt mean anything.

I'm almost certain Apple will put it on disc eventually (after enough people complain), but until then it will be a huge PITA.

NO PITA at all.

Use Finder to locate the Mac OS X Lion installer, right-click and select "Show Package Contents"
Find the SharedSupport folder and look for a file names "InstallESD.dmg". This is the Lion Boot Disc image.
Copy the "InstallESD.dmg" file to another folder such as your desktop.
Launch Disk Utility and click the burn button
Select the "InstallESD.dmg" copy as the image to burn, insert a DVD, and in a few minutes you will have a brand new Lion Boot Disc.

Source - http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 12:12 PM
That's not a viable solution, Patrick, because your average user will have no idea they can do that.

RafaelT
Jun 7, 2011, 12:21 PM
It really is to early to complain about this... who knows what Apple will do, they could have something built in that offers to burn a boot disk.

Atarikid
Jun 7, 2011, 12:34 PM
My bet is Lion will be available on DVD some months later.

lewis82
Jun 7, 2011, 12:35 PM
It's not about not having the option of having a disc. It's about the implications: the hypothetical removal of Optical Drives in their laptops, and use of that space for a bigger battery, a dedicated GPU in the 13'' case, a SSD (SO +Apps) + HDD (Files) hybrid combo, a lighter laptop overall, an improved cooling system... any one of those would be far more likely with the removal of the ODD. And for more useful as well.

All of the above would still be possible if Lion was distributed on both the Mac App Store and DVD. Or, the Mac App Store and USB. There's absolutely no reason to make things harder for the part of the population who doesn't have access to good internet, just so that next laptops have no ODD.

(Don't get me wrong, I'd love a MBP withoud a Superdrive. However, I like physical copies of my operating systems ;))

Morod
Jun 7, 2011, 12:40 PM
It looks like Amazon will be selling Lion:

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Mac-OS-L...7447007&sr=8-1

I don't think it'll be via download, so maybe a disk version will be made available.

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 12:44 PM
It looks like Amazon will be selling Lion:

http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Mac-OS-L...7447007&sr=8-1

I don't think it'll be via download, so maybe a disk version will be made available.

That was there a while ago. It's also gone now.

SomeSwede
Jun 7, 2011, 01:05 PM
I agree with the original poster to 100%.

Instead of dumbing down the operating system and making it cute they should be working on making a more powerful working environment for people who know how to use a computer. Instead of looking at iOS they could look at developers making OS X better, one good example being how much more powerful file managers than the Finder there are out there, or how i am forced to use third party hacks to change the system menu font or scroll bar colour.

But Apple has been working hard the last five years to turn the Mac in to a shiny fashion device for computer illiterate meterosexuals.

RobT
Jun 7, 2011, 01:06 PM
Here's an article that may be helpful...

http://eggfreckles.net/tech/burning-a-lion-boot-disc/

wonderspark
Jun 7, 2011, 01:36 PM
Here's an article that may be helpful...

http://eggfreckles.net/tech/burning-a-lion-boot-disc/

Very cool.

Sky Blue
Jun 7, 2011, 01:50 PM
My bet is Lion will be available on DVD some months later.

In the keynote, Schiller says that previous versions of OS X were on disc. "no more. Lion will be available only on the App Store."

RobT
Jun 7, 2011, 02:19 PM
In the keynote, Schiller says that previous versions of OS X were on disc. "no more. Lion will be available only on the App Store."

I'm OK with getting the OS from the app store as I long as I can put together a method of installing it on a new or blank HD WITHOUT having to install Snow Leopard first (such as by burning my own DVD).

Apple Expert
Jun 7, 2011, 02:20 PM
I'm OK with getting the OS from the app store as I long as I can put together a method of installing it on a new or blank HD WITHOUT having to install Snow Leopard first (such as by burning my own DVD).

Me too. But at the moment it looks like only in the App Store. :(

lewis82
Jun 7, 2011, 02:40 PM
I just sent feedback to Apple and you should all do. Apple can change position on such subjects: let's not forget the new "sunk" tab controls in the first Lion DP, which were removed due to massive complaints.

Sky Blue
Jun 7, 2011, 03:42 PM
Spoke with an Apple engineer today who said new Macs after Lion, will not come with physical restore media. They will use the restore partition.

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 03:43 PM
Makes sense. Did he say what you are supposed to do in case of a hard drive failure, though? And how does the recovery partition reinstall work, does it re-dwonload the OS?

Bear
Jun 7, 2011, 03:47 PM
Spoke with an Apple engineer today who said new Macs after Lion, will not come with physical restore media. They will use the restore partition.That means a disk failure requires a visit to an Apple Store. This This would mean repairs are required to go through Apple which is an issue.

Secondly if the engineer meant the "Recovery Partition" that others have mentioned. It's not large enough to store OS X or the iApps you get with the system as it is supposedly only 800 Meg. IAnd many people don't have the time it would take to download the software from Apple over their net connection. If the systems come without DVDs, there better be a way to create them.

Reach9
Jun 7, 2011, 03:54 PM
What if I want to do a clean install of Snow Leopard to get ready for Lion? How would i do a clean install if i'm upgrading Lion off the Mac App Store?

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 03:56 PM
What if I want to do a clean install of Snow Leopard to get ready for Lion? How would i do a clean install if i'm upgrading Lion off the Mac App Store?

You can still do that.

thejadedmonkey
Jun 7, 2011, 03:56 PM
Another possibility is that Apple (or a 3rd party) provides a utility to burn your own recovery DVD.

Uh.. you mean how Dell and Toshiba do it? Seriously, when Dell and Toshiba do it people bitch, but if it's Apple you'll cheer?

Bear
Jun 7, 2011, 03:58 PM
Uh.. you mean how Dell and Toshiba do it? Seriously, when Dell and Toshiba do it people bitch, but if it's Apple you'll cheer?Oh there are a lot of people complaining.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 8, 2011, 11:21 AM
Spoke with an Apple engineer today who said new Macs after Lion, will not come with physical restore media. They will use the restore partition.
Yuck! All low-end Windows machines have this BS "factory restore partition" feature because the manufacturer is too cheap to include a real copy of Windows 7.

So I guess Lion is the official end of Mac OS as "software" that you can actually buy and own. From here on out, it is going to be more akin to the iOS "firmware" model--no more customizable installations or upgradable hardware, just computer-like disposable appliances. I give it six months before Apple discontinues the Mac Pro desktop (possibly also the iMac) and switches all of its products to proprietary Apple-designed ARM CPU/GPU system-on-a-chip designs. I hate to see the concept of a real workstation computer disappear from the industry, but it looks like both Apple and Microsoft are striving to be "infotainment" companies.

MyDesktopBroke
Jun 8, 2011, 12:28 PM
I live in a rural area of New England, and the prospect of downloading Lion on our internet connection gives me the willies.

lewis82
Jun 8, 2011, 12:52 PM
[...]I give it six months before Apple discontinues the Mac Pro desktop (possibly also the iMac) and switches all of its products to proprietary Apple-designed ARM CPU/GPU system-on-a-chip designs. I hate to see the concept of a real workstation computer disappear from the industry, but it looks like both Apple and Microsoft are striving to be "infotainment" companies.

I don't think so. Forcing developpers to write new apps for a new architecture would take months, if not years (think of Adobe who adapts VERY slowly). During these years, there would be close to no content on Mac. (I'm not talking of fart apps or Twitter clients here, but rather "real", content creation apps. Apple did not forget these, otehrwise there would be no Final Cut Pro X.)

And no, you can't use a system similar to Rosetta because ARM processors are much less powerful than X86-64. You'd have a HUGE performance penalty which would render pretty much impossible running software with even the slightest amount of graphics.

Sodner
Jun 8, 2011, 12:53 PM
I find it VERY hard to imagine that in all the time apple spent working on this OS the situations EVERYONE here and on all the other tech forums immediately thought of did not occur to them. Although of course they probably also should have foreseen this response to their presentation today hmmm....

AMEN!!! Trust in Apple. It will, as they say "Just work!" ;)

zorinlynx
Jun 8, 2011, 12:58 PM
Spoke with an Apple engineer today who said new Macs after Lion, will not come with physical restore media. They will use the restore partition.

I'm not sure I like this. Even though I can easily make a backup of the system to another drive using CCC or another utility (or back up the recovery partition itself), it still feels good to have an official install disc to use if I have a hard drive failure.

Also, if a user fails to do this and their primary hard drive fails, then what? Take the machine to the store for a failed hard drive? That's a bit excessive especially if you're using a Mac Pro.

Not smart, Apple. A pressed DVD costs like 2 cents to make. Just give us boot media with new machines like you always have. :P

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 01:01 PM
Makes sense. Did he say what you are supposed to do in case of a hard drive failure, though? And how does the recovery partition reinstall work, does it re-dwonload the OS?

I booted into the recovery partition and erased my main drive and to re-install Lion it needs to be downloaded again. I think this is so stupid.

xgman
Jun 8, 2011, 01:36 PM
Here's an article that may be helpful...

http://eggfreckles.net/tech/burning-a-lion-boot-disc/


OP should add these instructions to the first post. Would probably help some folks.

Apple Expert
Jun 8, 2011, 01:39 PM
OP should add these instructions to the first post. Would probably help some folks.

Nice! Can someone confirm this does work that has Lion?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 01:43 PM
Nice! Can someone confirm this does work that has Lion?

Yes, it works.

Would be nice if Apple gave us an option to burn it to dvd.

ssdeg7
Jun 8, 2011, 01:56 PM
Lion should really be on a disc, and this is why i think so:


If there were a disc i'd simply:

1) Install Lion
2) Update Lion



If it were in a Disc you'd still have to install Snow Leopard, so you just have to download Lion which is less time than it takes to order it and wait for the box to arrive to your home.

Mal
Jun 8, 2011, 02:00 PM
If it were in a Disc you'd still have to install Snow Leopard, so you just have to download Lion which is less time than it takes to order it and wait for the box to arrive to your home.

What? If Lion shipped on a disk, why would you need to install Snow Leopard first? Please just take a moment and realize how stupid that sounds.

jW

Apple Expert
Jun 8, 2011, 02:06 PM
It's good that at least we have found a way to burn a disc for a clean install. :) Of course an official way by Apple is always welcome.

Reach9
Jun 8, 2011, 03:41 PM
You can still do that.

How?

Cougarcat
Jun 8, 2011, 04:40 PM
How?

Via the recovery partition that gets created.

iFanboy
Jun 8, 2011, 04:52 PM
This recovery partition seems like just another way for apple to take control from the users.

Example: I recently upgraded my Macbook Pro Unibody with an SSD. In a new mac with Lion i'd be stuffed. How can I install OSX on that?

Cougarcat
Jun 8, 2011, 04:55 PM
This recovery partition seems like just another way for apple to take control from the users.

Example: I recently upgraded my Macbook Pro Unibody with an SSD. In a new mac with Lion i'd be stuffed. How can I install OSX on that?

You'd have to put it in a case, install it from your old hard drive, and then swap the drives. Or extract the dmg and burn to a disk/partition/thumb drive.

ri0ku
Jun 8, 2011, 05:13 PM
forgive me if what I am about to say is beyond stupid but... didnt they mention something about delta updates for ios where when a new firmware is available instead of downloading the entire OS again it only downloads the upgraded/updated files.

Is this something that is possible with Lion? could the lion download be a delta download and only upgrades parts of snow leopard that have been rewritten in Lion?

:s Even reading what I just said seems madness to me but its 2011 anythings possible.

I mean... Wii U ... anything is possible...these days companies think adding a U to the end of an already insane name is normal.

Jahnsrud
Jun 8, 2011, 05:22 PM
Where I live, I only got 470 KB/s at most. :(

It would be better to replace the DVD with a USB flash disk and also have the Mac App Store Version.

Cougarcat
Jun 8, 2011, 07:34 PM
Is this something that is possible with Lion? could the lion download be a delta download and only upgrades parts of snow leopard that have been rewritten in Lion?


No, it's a full install.

Tech198
Jun 8, 2011, 08:23 PM
Where I live, I only got 470 KB/s at most. :(

It would be better to replace the DVD with a USB flash disk and also have the Mac App Store Version.

So your saying Apple shouldn't sell Lion DVD? Instead they should sell a bootable USB stick with Lion and you use to boot up with that?

Sounds good to me. I'd go with that too.

ThE.MeSsEnGeR
Jun 8, 2011, 08:42 PM
Where I live, I only got 470 KB/s at most. :(

so you can download it in 2.5 hours!

Where I live, I only get 30KB/s at most.
I can download it in 37 hours! [again: THIRTY SEVEN HOURS!!!]

Plus, I have a bandwidth limit of 3GB download per month! (at a monthly fee of 30$)
and further upgrades are jokes...

so, is Apple really making this easier/cheaper for us third-world country customers? I don't think so... :(

arkmannj
Jun 8, 2011, 08:48 PM
My question is, when you buy a new computer will Apple stil provide a restore/Lion DVD or USB drive? And with the Mini server will they drop the price since server is now a lot cheaper?

henry72
Jun 8, 2011, 09:27 PM
What I would do is clone the Lion installation file into my 8GB USB. It will be all good.

But no I don't agree with you. Disc is OVER, we should move on!! ;)

vtgts300kw
Jun 8, 2011, 10:25 PM
DVD's are relegated to the past for installs. They will go the way of the mini-USB thing that comes with the Macbook Air ( if they supply it physically at all ).

tom vilsack
Jun 9, 2011, 12:44 AM
problem solved....make your own thumbdrive install version from lion.dmg

if you don't know how this site explains

http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/11807/os-x-lion-convert-os-x-lion-dmg-installer-to-a-bootable-usb-thumbdrive-install-without-an-optical-drive/

California King
Jun 9, 2011, 03:35 AM
There is no need for discs for Lion.

Under "Internet Restore and Utilities"
"OS X Lion includes a built-in restore partition, allowing you to repair or reinstall OS X without the need for discs."

"OS X can be reinstalled on your Mac from recovery mode."

Link: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

MacinJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 03:48 AM
There is no need for discs for Lion.

Under "Internet Restore and Utilities"
"OS X Lion includes a built-in restore partition, allowing you to repair or reinstall OS X without the need for discs."

"OS X can be reinstalled on your Mac from recovery mode."

Link: http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

That's all fine and dandy. Reality is though, that Hard Drives fail. I'm waiting for my third HD to ship for this MacBook. Two HDs died on this MB alone in less than 2 years. Numerous others in the past 20 years. Search my previous posts. It's an all-too-common problem for me and no "Restore Partition" is going to help me one bit. Unless that partition is on a mini 8GB SSD built into the logic board on every new mac. Now there's an idea...

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 06:10 AM
Jesus christ …

For people that don't understand this they will just download from the app store and open damn app, hit the install and that's all.

if you want your precious DVD disk open the download applications (show package contents) and look for a very big dmg file (almost 4 GB in size).

THAT IS YOUR NORMAL BOOTABLE LION IMAGE THAT CAN BE BURNED WITH DISK UTILITY OR RESTORED TO A FLASH DRIVE, SD CARD OR HDD WITH THE SAME DISK UTILITY.

Can we please stop the useless whining now?

MacinJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 06:36 AM
Jesus christ …

For people that don't understand this they will just download from the app store and open damn app, hit the install and that's all.

if you want your precious DVD disk open the download applications (show package contents) and look for a very big dmg file (almost 4 GB in size).

THAT IS YOUR NORMAL BOOTABLE LION IMAGE THAT CAN BE BURNED WITH DISK UTILITY OR RESTORED TO A FLASH DRIVE, SD CARD OR HDD WITH THE SAME DISK UTILITY.

Can we please stop the useless whining now?

No, can YOU be a little more understanding for people that will have problems downloading it?? Sure, we're a minority but in this day and age of so-called tolerance, why should we be left behind?

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 9, 2011, 06:41 AM
No, can YOU be a little more understanding for people that will have problems downloading it?? Sure, we're a minority but in this day and age of so-called tolerance, why should we be left behind?

Exactly, there's a fine display of ignorance in this thread as to the quality of people's internet connections around the world. Some people have ultra fast unlimited connections, many others have ultra shi**y connections with a cap that a 4GB download does not go down well with.

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 06:55 AM
Truth to be told, I'm wondering how am I gonna upgrade to Lion without a disc.
Is it okay to leave my 15" MbP 8,2 on for over 24 hours? I'm worried about overheating and I wouldn't want a US$4000 laptop to just blow up.
And is it possible to burn Lion into a USB or DVD?
Thanks.

MbP 8,2 15", 2.3Ghz i7, 8GB DDR3 1333Mhz RAM, 1GB AMD HD6750M + 512MB Intel HD 3000, Apple 512GB SSD

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 9, 2011, 06:58 AM
Is it okay to leave my 15" MbP 8,2 on for over 24 hours?

You can leave it on for 24 weeks if you like.

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 06:59 AM
No, can YOU be a little more understanding for people that will have problems downloading it?? Sure, we're a minority but in this day and age of so-called tolerance, why should we be left behind?

No i can't, because it doesn't make sense at all. 5 years ago best i could get was Edge where i live. It's ~30 KB/s. I managed to download linux dvd images 3-4 GB in size, games and so on. Are you in hurry that it's a problem? Anyone with at least 2-3 Mbps internet will be just fine.

I also would like many things to go different way, but i too often am in the minority so i shut up, stop wasting my time, because i know it's useless.

In this case it's even a non-issue.

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 9, 2011, 07:02 AM
In this case it's even a non-issue.

For you.

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 07:09 AM
For you.

And my internet sucks too.

For Snow Leopard i had to drive 50 km to buy it and when it was 29 USD in US i payed more like 45 USD here. So i payed more + gas + time wasted (while it's downloading i can do other things, while i drive i can't).


And i didn't say a word that it's inconvenient for me.


Now it's your turn to feel inconvenience. That's just life. Suck it up and move on.

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 07:11 AM
I would also appreciate a Lion DVD. Hopefully there is a way you can burn it.

For Snow Leopard i had to drive 50 km to buy it and when it was 29 USD in US i payed more like 45 USD here. So i payed more + gas + time wasted (while it's downloading i can do other things, while i drive i can't).
Why didn't you just order it online? For me, it was £25 + £2 delivery. Two days wait.

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 07:16 AM
I would also appreciate a Lion DVD. Hopefully there is a way you can burn it.


Why didn't you just order it online? For me, it was £25 + £2 delivery. Two days wait.

Because this option was unavailable at that time. My village is not that advanced as yours in this respect.

I was happy to get it.

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 07:17 AM
You can leave it on for 24 weeks if you like.

But then will it have any serious consequences to my MbP? I don't want US$4000 to just go up in smoke.

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 07:19 AM
But then will it have any serious consequences to my MbP? I don't want US$4000 to just go up in smoke.

My MacBook is coming onto 4 years old, it is often left on permanently, still working as well as it ever did

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 9, 2011, 07:20 AM
Now it's your turn to feel inconvenience. That's just life. Suck it up and move on.

My internet connection is OK. I just happen to not be completely oblivious to the outside world. Some people's connections are capped at less than 4GB, it's not even a question of how long the download will take.

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 07:21 AM
My MacBook is coming onto 4 years old, it is often left on permanently, still working as well as it ever did

Do you leave it in an air-conditioned room or what?

MacManiac76
Jun 9, 2011, 07:22 AM
But then will it have any serious consequences to my MbP? I don't want US$4000 to just go up in smoke.

You can leave it on 24/7/365 if you want with no serious risk of damage to the system. I have left my MacBook on virtually all the time over the past 3 years and it still runs great. Pretty much the only time it is off is when I am traveling with it.

lamina
Jun 9, 2011, 07:23 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

We Gould be able to buy Lipn on the app store and (easily) put the image on a flash drive. 4GB flash drives can be had for $15 in retail stores and even less online. That would fix the issue and allow customers to have a somewhat hard copy of Lion.

hrishidev
Jun 9, 2011, 07:26 AM
After reading at several places about Lion OS is available only on App store , I have found people are talking considerably about
Making own DVD
Extracting Installer from App store and then distributing
Posting links of articles about extracting apps downloaded from Mac App store


I think Apple is indirectly forcing people to bypass official approach and making them aware that there are alternative available for them ....



With both App store download and DVD set , people would have both option to choose their next OS

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 07:27 AM
Do you leave it in an air-conditioned room or what?

nope, just a standard room sitting on a desk

they are very robust machines

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 07:28 AM
My internet connection is OK. I just happen to not be completely oblivious to the outside world. Some people's connections are capped at less than 4GB, it's not even a question of how long the download will take.

And some people have to drive to get it and even pay more, What about them? Digital downloads put the OS in way more user hands and that's what matters. It also reduce the price. 'completely oblivious to the outside world' … give me a break.

zombierunner
Jun 9, 2011, 07:29 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

So what happens when macs come with lion pre installed with lion .... Would there be no back up disc or USB drive provided???? Or will macs never come with lion ?? lol

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 07:30 AM
And some people have to drive to get it and even pay more, What about them? Digital downloads put the OS in way more user hands and that's what matters. It also reduce the price. 'completely oblivious to the outside world' … give me a break.

so why not give people an option ?

cheaper price if you download it
more expensive to have a dvd

everyone is then happy

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 07:30 AM
And some people have to drive to get it and even pay more, What about them? Digital downloads put the OS in way more user hands and that's what matters. It also reduce the price. 'completely oblivious to the outside world' … give me a break.

Are you quite far from Vilnius?

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 07:31 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-gb) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

So what happens when macs come with lion pre installed with lion .... Would there be no back up disc or USB drive provided???? Or will macs never come with lion ?? lol

they come with a recovery partition that you can boot from to fix problem (similar to what some windows machines have been doing for years)

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 07:32 AM
so why not give people an option ?

cheaper price if you download it
more expensive to have a dvd

everyone is then happy

Because it doesn't make sense for Apple. I bet 99% of Lion copies will be sold through App Store.

Are you quite far from Vilnius?

Yes.

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 9, 2011, 07:33 AM
Sounds about right to me. On the one hand we have a whole bunch of people for who there clearly is a problem, and on the other you saying "This is not a problem".

MacinJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 07:36 AM
No i can't, because it doesn't make sense at all. 5 years ago best i could get was Edge where i live. It's ~30 KB/s. I managed to download linux dvd images 3-4 GB in size, games and so on. Are you in hurry that it's a problem? Anyone with at least 2-3 Mbps internet will be just fine.

I also would like many things to go different way, but i too often am in the minority so i shut up, stop wasting my time, because i know it's useless.

In this case it's even a non-issue.

Wow. Can I just suggest you read this thread over? No? Ok, I'll spell it out for you.

It's not about speed, even though I get 10 kilobytes per second at best.

I get only 2500MB per month for $100. See the problem here?

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 07:36 AM
It says that I can install Lion on any Mac I own.
So does this mean that I can install it on a friend's MbP without paying extra?

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 07:37 AM
It says that I can install Lion on any Mac I own.
So does this mean that I can install it on a friend's MbP without paying extra?

Do you own your friends MBP? ;)

Jolly Jimmy
Jun 9, 2011, 07:39 AM
Wow. Can I just suggest you read this thread over? No? Ok, I'll spell it out for you.

It's not about speed, even though I get 10 kilobytes per second at best.

I get only 2500MB per month for $100. See the problem here?

This is exactly the kind of situation I'm talking about. Still think it's a non issue Žalgiris?

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 07:39 AM
Do you own your friends MBP? ;)

Of course not.
But it is possible, isn't it?

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 07:41 AM
Because it doesn't make sense for Apple. I bet 99% of Lion copies will be sold through App Store.



should be 100% as there are no other options

be interested what the take up rate is, if most people on SL do upgrade then fair enough I will have to think whether to upgrade or not

I am waiting it out to se if other options become available

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 07:42 AM
Of course not.
But it is possible, isn't it?

You would have to sign on to the Mac App Store on their computer using your Apple ID.

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 07:46 AM
You would have to sign on to the Mac App Store on their computer using your Apple ID.

Then I'll take it as a yes. At least I don't have to pay another 30 bucks to install it on another Mac.
Apple, apple...this is encouraging software distribution without charging extra I guess.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 08:01 AM
same as many other here

slow internet
capped also

no options to get anything faster

I could drive to the nearest apple store and install it from the dvd (300 mile round trip) quicker than i could download it

OllyW
Jun 9, 2011, 08:01 AM
Then I'll take it as a yes. At least I don't have to pay another 30 bucks to install it on another Mac.
Apple, apple...this is encouraging software distribution without charging extra I guess.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

In theory yes.
Since it is yet to be released we still don't know exactly how it is going to work.

MacinJosh
Jun 9, 2011, 08:08 AM
I could drive to the nearest apple store and install it from the dvd (300 mile round trip) quicker than i could download it

Same here, but I would have to fly to Australia from Papua New Guinea. Steep price. Sure, I could have someone send it to me but third-world postal service is unreliable at best. DHL shipping would cost more than Lion itself.

But no worries mates! Our Lithuainian friend here says that it's a non-issue and we should stop complaining. I guess he will work things out for us. He seems to be such a nice guy...

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 08:15 AM
Same here, but I would have to fly to Australia from Papua New Guinea. Steep price. Sure, I could have someone send it to me but third-world postal service is unreliable at best. DHL shipping would cost more than Lion itself.

But no worries mates! Our Lithuainian friend here says that it's a non-issue and we should stop complaining. I guess he will work things out for us. He seems to be such a nice guy...

lol, that makes my situation feel very minor, that would suck having to do a trip like that (but for me in uk, sounds like it could be combined with a nice holiday)

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 09:05 AM
they come with a recovery partition that you can boot from to fix problem (similar to what some windows machines have been doing for years)

Windows machines you can install the OS without the need to download . Restoring Lion from the recovery partition it needs to download. Apple assume everyone has big data caps and fasts speed internet.

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 09:12 AM
Windows machines you can install the OS without the need to download . Restoring Lion from the recovery partition it needs to download. Apple assume everyone has big data caps and fasts speed internet.

sorry, might have been my bad wording

I was meaning after its downloaded it creates a recovery partition, or does it need to download again if you use the recovery tool :confused:

I agree on last point, i have slow, capped broadband, so none of this is very practical, hoping for a decent solution from apple in the future

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 09:15 AM
sorry, might have been my bad wording

I was meaning after its downloaded it creates a recovery partition, or does it need to download again if you use the recovery tool :confused:

I agree on last point, i have slow, capped broadband, so none of this is very practical, hoping for a decent solution from apple in the future

Yes, it needs to re-download if you use the recovery partition, thats how Lion DP4 works at least. IMO it's such a silly idea, why not just give users an option to burn it to DVD officially. Most people wouldn't have a clue how to burn it to dvd otherwise.

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 09:17 AM
Yes, it needs to re-download if you use the recovery partition, thats how Lion DP4 works at least.

:(, cheers

kule
Jun 9, 2011, 09:28 AM
I'm just curious as to how well Apples servers are going to hold out on day one. I mean there's always big issues just doing iPhone activations for at least the first day (maybe that's just the mobile providers systems though?).

With however many thousands (or maybe even millions?) downloading their 4Gb copy of Lion on day one - it's gonna be interesting!

eagandale4114
Jun 9, 2011, 04:38 PM
For multiple computers this will be a good idea.
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

ErikGrim
Jun 9, 2011, 05:27 PM
One interesting thing: Even if you are installing from an external hard drive it will create a boot partition on the same disk you are installing to and install from that.

Found that out when I accidentally ripped out the cord of the external hard drive I installed from. (Another hint was that I couldn't do disk repairs on it).

easy4lif
Jun 9, 2011, 08:49 PM
For multiple computers this will be a good idea.
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/

linking this for later use.

Tech198
Jun 9, 2011, 09:20 PM
oh well... not as bad as it seemed after all...

But hey, we all 'make the best of a bad situation' even at the best of times.

Sneakz
Jun 9, 2011, 09:46 PM
For multiple computers this will be a good idea.
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/06/07/how-to-burn-a-lion-boot-disc/
No longer works as of DP4. Works on DP3. Or at least I haven't been able to make it work on DP4. I have been able to make a bootable USB drive using DP4 though.

Tech198
Jun 9, 2011, 10:18 PM
Thats what you guys are here for.... right ? to take the rap for me when I don't have to :)

It'll probably be few weeks anyway before i decide to install Lion... as I've got allot to ATV stuff to do.

Maybe sooner .... but hopefully later.

yjchua95
Jun 9, 2011, 11:40 PM
nope, just a standard room sitting on a desk

they are very robust machines

Plugged into the wall jack or what?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 02:01 AM
No longer works as of DP4. Works on DP3. Or at least I haven't been able to make it work on DP4. I have been able to make a bootable USB drive using DP4 though.

I have burnt DP4 to a dvd and install it on 2 Macs.

paulsalter
Jun 10, 2011, 03:09 AM
Plugged into the wall jack or what?

yup, just plugged into a standard wall socket, nothing special

lewis82
Jun 10, 2011, 02:35 PM
I'm just curious as to how well Apples servers are going to hold out on day one. I mean there's always big issues just doing iPhone activations for at least the first day (maybe that's just the mobile providers systems though?).

With however many thousands (or maybe even millions?) downloading their 4Gb copy of Lion on day one - it's gonna be interesting!

For occasions like these they rent servers from Akamai, a company specialized in high-volume hosting solutions.

McGiord
Jun 10, 2011, 09:44 PM
More traffic to their Apple Stores so the Geniuses will be even more busy.
You go there to get something fixed, and alway get out buying something extra.

What will happen with the Hardware test that used to be in the discs?

How is the Hardware Test done in a MacBook Air?

So, Lion is an incremental update to Snow Leopard?

I do also prefer to have an independent way to installing Lion.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 10:27 PM
To do a clean install one must re download Lion what a joke.

Cougarcat
Jun 10, 2011, 10:48 PM
To do a clean install one must re download Lion what a joke.

...or restore to a flash drive/HD/DVD. Not that that's much better.

db1408
Jun 11, 2011, 08:27 AM
You can either fresh install through boot holding alt down, this gives time machine etc and the option to WiFi a new Lion, or alternatively use the boot file, there are threads showing it's location following install of Lion or download a torrent DMG and use that as your boot, you could burn it to a DVD or even easier, put it on a flash drive if you want a non WiFi boot.

The new method has all the original means of booting OSx's plus the new WiFi method, you just have to do a bit of burning/file transfer to have the physical version.

I installed Lion straight from DMG in SnowLeopard, after 8 mins of configuration, reboot, 20 mins later booted into Lion.

As long as you backup through TimeMachine (files not the OS) you can slide back to an alternate OS through a full format through Utilities and TimeMachine restore using the Flashstick/DVD of your old boot OS. If you have a pretty full hard drive the TimeMachine option would take a few hours, but in the end you can always get back to the start.

swingerofbirch
Jun 11, 2011, 10:06 PM
More traffic to their Apple Stores so the Geniuses will be even more busy.
You go there to get something fixed, and alway get out buying something extra.

What will happen with the Hardware test that used to be in the discs?

How is the Hardware Test done in a MacBook Air?

So, Lion is an incremental update to Snow Leopard?

I do also prefer to have an independent way to installing Lion.

Just start up holding the T key. It will load without the disc, even on my MBP which has an optical drive, so I think it would work for all modern Macs, not just MBAs. I think I was told it's built into the BIOS, but I don't know if that's right. Somehow it loads without accessing the hard drive I guess. But however it works, I can confirm it works without the disc.

jayhawk11
Jun 11, 2011, 10:31 PM
What will happen with the Hardware test that used to be in the discs?

How is the Hardware Test done in a MacBook Air?


It's built into the Boot Partition now. Start up holding the D key; Voila, Apple Hardware Test.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 06:51 AM
Each time it looks more and more like I will have to throw away all the Apple-related stuff I have bought over the years.

yjchua95
Jun 12, 2011, 08:08 AM
Now that I'm using Snow Leopard, should I upgrade to Lion? How is it better than SL (apart from Launchpad and Mission Control)? I would appreciate it if you guys would let me know.
I use my MbP mainly for photo/video editing and graphic-intensive tasks.

ECUpirate44
Jun 12, 2011, 08:11 AM
But wouldn't you be able to download OSX Lion through the App Store, and then burn it to a Disc yourselfs?

That has yet to be seen. I hope so.

Cougarcat
Jun 12, 2011, 11:44 AM
Now that I'm using Snow Leopard, should I upgrade to Lion? How is it better than SL (apart from Launchpad and Mission Control)? I would appreciate it if you guys would let me know.
I use my MbP mainly for photo/video editing and graphic-intensive tasks.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html Also, OpenGL 3.2.