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ScubaCinci
Jun 6, 2011, 07:21 PM
Any confirmation of non-Apple SSD TRIM? Supposedly it had been mentioned that SandForce SSD's will be supported but nothing documented has surfaced that I could find. Thanks to anyone who has insight. :)



bugout
Jun 8, 2011, 08:51 AM
I have a vertex 3 in my 11 MBP and trim's not activated on it in DP4

ScubaCinci
Jun 8, 2011, 10:08 AM
I have a vertex 3 in my 11 MBP and trim's not activated on it in DP4

Thanks. I wonder if the TRIM tweak that works on Snow Leopard works on Lion?



BTW - why would you put a Vertex 3 in there - the MBP is SATA II yes?

nickcao
Jun 8, 2011, 10:25 AM
BTW - why would you put a Vertex 3 in there - the MBP is SATA II yes?

there are one or two SATA III ports in 2011 mbp

ScubaCinci
Jun 8, 2011, 10:32 AM
Ah...bummer that I have a 2010 model. Thanks.

aldejesus
Jun 8, 2011, 12:38 PM
I have a OWC Mercury 6gs on my MPB 2011, and No Trim. I tried using the "TRIM support enabler" it enables TRIM on lion DP4, but after a few minutes beach balls started appearing. So I disable it.

ScubaCinci
Jun 8, 2011, 12:53 PM
That's disheartening. :mad:

wikus
Jun 8, 2011, 01:17 PM
4 years Apple has been selling macs with SSDs, and only recently do they add TRIM support but ONLY on their own (crappy) Toshiba drives. Windows has had it for 2+ years.

This is ridiculous.

Killerbob
Jun 23, 2011, 10:45 AM
Hi,

Using DP4, with ver. 1.1 of the Trim enabler SW, my C300 has had Trim enabled the last 30 boots, and all is fine.

Bo

roland.g
Jun 25, 2011, 01:36 PM
The whole TRIM thing is new to me, but I have been reading up on it a little. Plan on getting a 27" iMac SSD + HDD next month. So it will be Apple's Toshiba SSD in there. With TRIM enabled in Lion on an Apple SSD, do you need to run a TRIM enabler/software too, or does the system take care of it?

Cougarcat
Jun 25, 2011, 01:43 PM
With TRIM enabled in Lion on an Apple SSD, do you need to run a TRIM enabler/software too, or does the system take care of it?

The system takes care of it.

roland.g
Jun 25, 2011, 01:58 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Cool. Thanks. Also, I plan on getting my iMac once they come 10.7 preloaded. Typically the first thing I do when I get a new machine is to wipe the drive by booting off the install DVD, which in this case would be a partition maybe, and then reinstalling the OS without all the stuff I don't need. Things like additional language support and fonts, printer drivers, X11, etc. This usually cuts down my install size. But people also say that the 256 SSD is more than you need for the OS, Apps, and even Home directory given that the iTunes library will be on an external drive. Probably will keep the iPhoto library on the SSD though I have heard people argue both ways on that. I would assume that TRIM will make that ok to do.

Question is would I really want to wipe the preloaded SSD of the OS, and reinstall it and iLife just to save a little space (which for 10.5 or 10.6 came in at about 4-5 GB saved) or will the wipe be bad for the SSD?

Cougarcat
Jun 25, 2011, 02:48 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Question is would I really want to wipe the preloaded SSD of the OS, and reinstall it and iLife just to save a little space (which for 10.5 or 10.6 came in at about 4-5 GB saved) or will the wipe be bad for the SSD?

It won't harm the SSD. That said, I'd just use Monolingual to remove language files. As of 10.6 OS X no longer installs unused printer drivers, and things like X11 aren't installed by default.

Atarikid
Jun 25, 2011, 03:34 PM
I have a OWC Mercury 6gs on my MPB 2011, and No Trim. I tried using the "TRIM support enabler" it enables TRIM on lion DP4, but after a few minutes beach balls started appearing. So I disable it.

FYI a SSD with a Sandforce controller has hardware 'trim' support. No need for software TRIM. So, it will not be displayed as 'TRIM support' in the System Profiler.

And OWC uses Sandforce controllers.

Killerbob
Jun 25, 2011, 04:49 PM
So, if the C300 has "trim" in the HW, and I also turn it on in the SW, will that create problems?

Bo

ScubaCinci
Jun 27, 2011, 12:01 PM
There is no such thing as hardware TRIM on the SandForce controllers or any other controller that I'm aware of including Intel, Indilinx, Samsung and Marvell. There's NAND laundering (aka Garbage Collection) which is not the same as TRIM. TRIM is a function of the OS which is executed by the controller on demand.

I've tested over 30 SSD's in the past 2 years and no manufacturer has ever mentioned anything about "hardware TRIM" or anything like it other than GC. There's a lot of misinformation about SSDs on the web so it's not surprising that there is confusion around this. If TRIM is not enabled/supported, the drive will slow down over time, period. The only way to stave this off for as long as possible without TRIM is to fill as small a % of the drive as you can.

roland.g
Jun 27, 2011, 12:32 PM
Apple Tax or not. I've decided that in replacing my 2007 rev. A aluminum iMac, I will be getting a 27" SSD + HDD. I want the speed, and if this will be machine for the next 4 years or so, while it isn't cheap, I don't want to regret not having it. But I am also waiting for those iMacs to ship with 10.7 pre-installed. Up-to-date code or not, I don't want to deal with that. I can wait 4-6 weeks after the Lion release for that machine to ship 10.7 imaged.

Killerbob
Jun 27, 2011, 01:21 PM
I know that the C300 does not have "Hardware TRIM", but Garbage Collector, I just didn't remember the name when I posted.

My question is still though: Does it negatively affect performance if I have Garbage Collector on the C300, as well as enabled TRIM in the OS?

Bo

Atarikid
Jun 27, 2011, 01:43 PM
There is no such thing as hardware TRIM on the SandForce controllers or any other controller that I'm aware of including Intel, Indilinx, Samsung and Marvell.

That is why I quoted 'TRIM'. Yes, there is no hardware TRIM but the Sandforce controllers have DuraClass technology. As I mentioned elsewhere I had a long chat with one of the OCW devs guys who did many tests with DuraClass and Trim. It seems DuraClass was more efficient compared to Trim. On top of this, enabling Trim with a Sandforce controller will slow down the SSD considerably in short time.
The dev emphasizes many times there are two things to keep in mind with Sandforce controllers : Do NOT use TRIM and have at least 7% free space. OCW SSD have this by default (a 240GB SSD has actually a capacity of 257GB).

ScubaCinci
Jun 27, 2011, 01:49 PM
That dev is smoking crack IMO. I have spoken to SandForce directly several times and this has never come up. I'll ask them though and see what they say.

I know that the C300 does not have "Hardware TRIM", but Garbage Collector, I just didn't remember the name when I posted.

My question is still though: Does it negatively affect performance if I have Garbage Collector on the C300, as well as enabled TRIM in the OS?

Bo
It sounds like it depends who you ask but I say definitely not.

faacplh
Jun 30, 2011, 05:54 AM
http://www.betanews.com/article/Get-what-Apple-wont-give-TRIM-support-for-3rdparty-SSDs/1301330225

Worked for me. :)

haravikk
Jun 30, 2011, 08:32 AM
TRIM is basically just a command that a supported SSD can accept from the OS. It differs from garbage collection in that the burden of tracking and clearing unused blocks is on the OS, rather than the drive doing it all by itself.

That said, TRIM can be superior to garbage collection as an OS with an intelligent driver can make more informed decisions about whether to TRIM a block or not, whereas garbage collection will usually be fairly simplistic (if it's unused for X amount of time then it gets trimmed).

KJmoon117
Jul 1, 2011, 09:29 PM
Has TRIM for all drives been included in the GM build of Lion?

bugout
Jul 1, 2011, 11:15 PM
Has TRIM for all drives been included in the GM build of Lion?

No.

axu539
Jul 1, 2011, 11:52 PM
Has TRIM for all drives been included in the GM build of Lion?

Nope. I'd thought it would, but after a couple months of discussing and researching, I don't think it will happen. Initial TRIM support in Windows actually caused a lot of headaches (eating data, corruption, etc) due to the inconsistency between different SSDs. Apple is probably trying to avoid risking any of this data loss, so they are only supporting TRIM on hardware that they are actually testing themselves. This sucks for the more geeky end-user, but in a way, saves the less tech savvy user some trouble if something does go wrong. Those of us with 3rd-party SSDs can just run the script ourselves to activate TRIM if we really need it.

KJmoon117
Jul 2, 2011, 12:40 AM
ugh.

Then shouldn't the manufacturers write their own drivers to enable TRIM on various operating systems? Just like how graphic card manufacturers do.

One thing I'm curious is, how was Windows/Microsoft able to implement TRIM while OSX/Apple can't?

MikhailT
Jul 2, 2011, 01:15 AM
ugh.

Then shouldn't the manufacturers write their own drivers to enable TRIM on various operating systems? Just like how graphic card manufacturers do.

One thing I'm curious is, how was Windows/Microsoft able to implement TRIM while OSX/Apple can't?

TRIM requires support on all three points, from the OS to the drive controller to the drive’s firmware. The OS needs to understand the TRIM draft standard, the firmware on SSD needs to pass the TRIM commands and between them, the drive controller has to passthrough the TRIM commands.

Apple knows and validate every SSDs that are sold as BTOs in their Macs, so they can feel safe about supporting the TRIM between the OS/controller and the SSD without any issues.

Windows has genetic TRIM drivers for most of the popular drive controllers and support any SSDs with TRIM support but Microsoft can’t validate all of the SSDs, it is up to the manufacturers to provide the firmware updates to fix any issues with TRIM.

You may have heard that many SSDs have to be flashed a couple of times to fix any issues. SSDs are still famous for firmware issues but they’re getting much better over time.

Eventually over time, TRIM will become an official standard (maybe on its own) and Apple can safely enable it for all incoming new SSDs but I doubt they’ll enable that support any time soon.

axu539
Jul 2, 2011, 02:03 AM
TRIM requires support on all three points, from the OS to the drive controller to the drive’s firmware. The OS needs to understand the TRIM draft standard, the firmware on SSD needs to pass the TRIM commands and between them, the drive controller has to passthrough the TRIM commands.

Apple knows and validate every SSDs that are sold as BTOs in their Macs, so they can feel safe about supporting the TRIM between the OS/controller and the SSD without any issues.

Windows has genetic TRIM drivers for most of the popular drive controllers and support any SSDs with TRIM support but Microsoft can’t validate all of the SSDs, it is up to the manufacturers to provide the firmware updates to fix any issues with TRIM.

You may have heard that many SSDs have to be flashed a couple of times to fix any issues. SSDs are still famous for firmware issues but they’re getting much better over time.

Eventually over time, TRIM will become an official standard (maybe on its own) and Apple can safely enable it for all incoming new SSDs but I doubt they’ll enable that support any time soon.

This is a perfect answer. I'm still a little baffled as to why the entire TRIM thing wasn't initially introduced as more of a standard from the get-go. Clearly, it's a beneficial and sometimes necessary function, and we'd be way ahead if manufacturers had some sort of standardization.

Atarikid
Jul 2, 2011, 04:44 AM
Eventually over time, TRIM will become an official standard (maybe on its own) and Apple can safely enable it for all incoming new SSDs but I doubt they’ll enable that support any time soon.

Can you explain why the OWC devs do not advice you to enable TRIM support for their SSDs? As far as I know the Sandforce controller does support TRIM.
It is said OWC SSD do perform lesser when you enable TRIM afterall (with TRIMenabler)

haravikk
Jul 2, 2011, 05:46 AM
Can you explain why the OWC devs do not advice you to enable TRIM support for their SSDs? As far as I know the Sandforce controller does support TRIM.
It is said OWC SSD do perform lesser when you enable TRIM afterall (with TRIMenabler)
Do their drives have garbage collection? In theory you don't need TRIM and garbage collection, and the two features may actually interfere if activated at the same time.

MikhailT
Jul 2, 2011, 06:13 PM
Can you explain why the OWC devs do not advice you to enable TRIM support for their SSDs? As far as I know the Sandforce controller does support TRIM.
It is said OWC SSD do perform lesser when you enable TRIM afterall (with TRIMenabler)

Do their drives have garbage collection? In theory you don't need TRIM and garbage collection, and the two features may actually interfere if activated at the same time.

I don't know the full story or what OWC have said but haravikk is right, if Sandforce have IGC (idle garbage collection), TRIM isn't that important to have on and to make it stable, they could recommend it to be turned off. IGC isn't a replacement for TRIM but it is fairly effective.

The other reason might be that there is a known issue with some firmware that would not be compatible with Macs. A small group of people get BSODs on Windows using Sandforce-based SSDs and I believe I have heard of similar issues on Macs.