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alphaone
Jun 6, 2011, 10:53 PM
I'm not bashing here (I also can't tell if this hasn't been discussed before). I'm just honestly wondering if I'm missing something regarding 10.7. I've watched the video released today and read all the information, including the sticky thread in this forum. But this is the first time since OS X came out where my response for a new 10.X version has been overwhelmingly, "meh..." There aren't really any new features that have that cool factor or make me say, wow, that would be really useful. 10.6 didn't really have all that much in the way of new things but it was a step forward in speed and general usability.

-Full screen apps? I don't really have a need for them to be full screen, I think even though they say it won't, I think it will hamper quick multi tasking if you use it.

-New Apple mail design? I think I like the current one better.

-Gestures? 10.6 already pretty much has that, although admittedly, 10.7's does look more refined. Also only really useful if you use a trackpad.

-Mission control? Just another slight exposť redesign really it looks like.

-Launch pad = super sized stacks just for applications? Not very useful...

-Resume? Looks nice but not exactly a groundbreaking feature.

-Air drop? Dropbox already does this just fine for me and you don't have to be on the same network and it's not Mac only.

-Auto save? Really...? Auto save??? What year is it again?



Again, just my opinion, and it's not like they're asking a ton of money for it. But, still I wonder, am I alone here?



wangkom
Jun 6, 2011, 10:55 PM
I totally agree. I'm not sure why everyone is so worked up over our OS looking more and more like a phone operating system. Yeah, we get a few minor things here and there, but overall, it's a tiny upgrade.

alust2013
Jun 6, 2011, 10:56 PM
No, I'm with you there. I think it's reasonably cool, but it certainly isn't as amazing as I was expecting.

At least it doesn't look like windows 8.

Nermal
Jun 6, 2011, 10:57 PM
I'm not terribly excited either. I'll wait until it's been released and people have actually had a chance to sit down and use it, but it's not looking like I'll be rushing out to get it immediately.

cltitus
Jun 6, 2011, 10:58 PM
Well isn't Lion also suppose to be Lion and Lion Server in one deal that was my major impression because for a cheap up grade for 30bucks for sever compared to 130 for snow that was really my only reason for upgrading.

DudeMartin
Jun 6, 2011, 11:01 PM
Well, for starters - it is over four times less expensive. Also, I think Snow Leopard is a very refined operating system within itself, so I don't think you will find a major OS release that will be something truly revolutionary. I particularly found the little things that were added/fixed more important than the main features.

For example, in Mission Control - I liked how you could just drag an app that has a whole lot of windows into its own space just so you can separate all the windows from everything else. Or I liked how you can use different little filters in Mail to pinpoint the exact message.

alphaone
Jun 6, 2011, 11:05 PM
Hang on a sec. I realize it's been a while and I may be misremembering, but was not Snow Leopard also $29 retail?

It's good to see that I'm not completely alone in though. A lot of people seemed really pumped up about it so naturally I wondered.

cltitus
Jun 6, 2011, 11:05 PM
Well when my mom upgrades her old laptop to a new MacbookAir sometime next month I guess ill be able to play around with Lion without having to purchase it.

Jagardn
Jun 6, 2011, 11:16 PM
I'm actually looking forward to it, for the price there is a lot of features.
It's not quite as groundbreaking as Windows 7(AKA Vista SP3).:rolleyes:

Cougarcat
Jun 6, 2011, 11:18 PM
While it might not have the richest feature set we might desire, at least the price is reflective of this. And seeing as I will be reaping the benefits of the new Mail, Versions, and Autosave daily, $30 is a steal.

alphaone
Jun 6, 2011, 11:30 PM
You're right if you are going to be using those features a lot it's a good deal. I guess I had just gotten used to at least one groundbreaking new feature coming out with every new major release, such as Exposť. Honestly I don't know what I did before that feature. (10.6 was a performance release so I'm not counting that.) I'm also very leery of my computer starting to act similar to my phone (or iPad, if I had one), which appears to be the direction both Microsoft and Apple are going in. To me, computers and mobile devices like that should definitely stay separate. But that's a debate for another place.

rorschach
Jun 6, 2011, 11:33 PM
At this point it's almost like, how many more "revolutionary" features can they add? Sure there are always things to add and improve but it feels like desktop operating systems have reached a peak unless (or until) there's a radical new paradigm introduced -- if that's even necessary. Tablets and mobile devices are what's hot now. iOS devices aren't even going to need to hook up to a desktop computer anymore.

Just look at the price. OS X has dropped from $129 to $29. That's cheaper than even a lot of relatively small apps.

alphaone
Jun 6, 2011, 11:36 PM
At this point it's almost like, how many more "revolutionary" features can they add? Sure there are always things to add and improve but it feels like desktop operating systems have reached a peak unless (or until) there's a radical new paradigm introduced -- if that's even necessary. Tablets and mobile devices are what's hot now.

Just look at the price. OS X has dropped from $129 to $29. That's cheaper than even a lot of relatively small apps.

I definitely hear you there. I have a feeling that's generally what's happened here. But.. it's Apple here.. Masters of the magical! :) Surely they can think of something. I hope.

Thunderbird
Jun 6, 2011, 11:38 PM
Hang on a sec. I realize it's been a while and I may be misremembering, but was not Snow Leopard also $29 retail?


Yes, S.L. was also $29. There wasn't as much hype for Snow Leopard either.

While it might not have the richest feature set we might desire, at least the price is reflective of this. And seeing as I will be reaping the benefits of the new Mail, Versions, and Autosave daily, $30 is a steal.
Yup, Apple was smart in keeping the price to the same as Snow Leopard. To be fair, I think Lion has more new features than S.L. So, $29. is a good price.

With Snow Leopard and now Lion, I wonder if there's a trend for new Mac OS releases to be more modest and incremental, instead of the larger leaps forward we saw between Tiger and Leopard, for example?

In any case, Apple software is falling behind Windows again as Win 8 looks pretty interesting. Mac OS really needs an overhaul, starting with a new file system like ZFS. Resolution Independence should also be on their to-do list, along with Blu-Ray support, USB 3.0 support and a revamped more universally consistant GUI. It's 2011, and Apple has now only added things like resizing windows from any edge, and full screen apps. That's not good enough.

With $60 B in the bank, you'd think Apple could afford to be more progressive with their Mac OS features than they currently are.

Cougarcat
Jun 6, 2011, 11:47 PM
In any case, Apple software is falling behind Windows again as Win 8 looks pretty interesting. Mac OS really needs an overhaul, starting with a new file system like ZFS. Resolution Independence should also be on their to-do list, along with Blu-Ray support, USB 3.0 support and a revamped more universally consistant GUI.

ZFS got canned due to licensing issues, but I think there was a rumor or two that Apple was writing their own (which is needed). But that'll take a while. Resolution Independence got abandoned in favor of their retina display support, which has poked its head in Lion. Blu-Ray will never happen for obvious reasons, and USB 3.0 support will come when it is included in intel's chipsets next year.

Apple doesn't care about consistency like they used to; just look at the new Address Book and iCal, and custom app interfaces everywhere in iOS. Whether or not you like this approach is a matter of taste. Personally I find them a bit gaudy, but I don't care all that much.

poobear
Jun 7, 2011, 01:13 AM
It's 2011, and Apple has now only added things like resizing windows from any edge, and full screen apps. That's not good enough.

They implemented the features that most people want.


In any case, Apple software is falling behind Windows again as Win 8 looks pretty interesting. Mac OS really needs an overhaul, starting with a new file system like ZFS. Resolution Independence should also be on their to-do list, along with Blu-Ray support [...]
When does HFS Plus limit your day-to-day work? I really donít see the problem with it.
Resolution independence is still not needed for some years until we have better screens.
We all know that Blueray is a "bag of hurt" and that digital downloading will triumph Blueray.

Seriously, how does these things improve your daily work more than autosave, resume and mission control??

GoKyu
Jun 7, 2011, 01:15 AM
After watching the entire keynote, I was more impressed and hyped to get iOS 5 on my iPhone and iPad than I was to get Lion on my Mac.

It's already no secret that I think they screwed up big time with Mission Control and messed up the great functionality in Spaces, but maybe with enough of the new smaller features, I might be willing to upgrade, especially at that price.

iCloud may be worth upgrading for; I just have one question (for any devs who may be trying it out) - is it going to be possible to limit this "auto-sync" stuff? I don't like the idea of re-jailbreaking my iPhone, for instance, and to have absolutely every app I've ever purchased re-downloaded automatically (even the ones I've deleted because they weren't useful or whatever...)

I'd give iOS 5 a 5 out of 5; Lion gets a 3 out of 5 after what I saw today.

DudeMartin
Jun 7, 2011, 01:20 AM
I think you're all judging Lion too quickly. The video only showed 10 key features of the (apparently) over 250 new features added in. Even if it's not something big, I believe that little things can make a big difference in the long run.

ErikGrim
Jun 7, 2011, 01:30 AM
I just have one question (for any devs who may be trying it out) - is it going to be possible to limit this "auto-sync" stuff? I don't like the idea of re-jailbreaking my iPhone, for instance, and to have absolutely every app I've ever purchased re-downloaded automatically (even the ones I've deleted because they weren't useful or whatever...)Where on earth did you pick up the idea that it would automatically re-download deleted apps. :confused:

Also: Apple doesn't give a flying copulation about jailbreakers.

GoKyu
Jun 7, 2011, 01:48 AM
Where on earth did you pick up the idea that it would automatically re-download deleted apps. :confused:

Also: Apple doesn't give a flying copulation about jailbreakers.

Steve seemed to imply when he talked about "setting up a brand new device" (or if you need to do a full restore) that "you type in your Apple ID and password, and everything gets downloaded to your device" (happens around 89:20 into the keynote.)

Maybe I mistook what he said, that's absolutely possible, that's why I'm asking for clarification.

The only reason I even brought up jailbreaking is that that's one time I might have to do a "full restore", which relates back to my question.

I think you're all judging Lion too quickly. The video only showed 10 key features of the (apparently) over 250 new features added in. Even if it's not something big, I believe that little things can make a big difference in the long run.

I agree with you completely - there might be a lot of small features that I'd value enough to upgrade at such an affordable price, but I won't do it immediately. I'll find out what more of the smaller features are, and make a decision at that point.

Tech198
Jun 7, 2011, 01:59 AM
No fret .... your not the only one who has the little tif about Lion.. I do to..

Or at least I do for the part of WWC on apple I saw :P... Half way through the stream, safari froze (beach ball) had to "force quit".

From what i've seen so far. Lion looks ok, might have to get used to IOS style on a Mac, but apart from that its looks good.

All these "automatic" features that "make life easier" like Autosave is good, and Previous versions. But wait...... didn't I remember Windows 7 already has previous versions .....Its probably more basic on Windows, but its still there. I wonder why Apple couldn't have included something in comparison with Snow Leopard.

While its all good with Auto save as well, there are situations you may not want to autosave... Previous versions would take you back from the applications window. But heres the thing : If a user already know even before you launch an app that you do want to start again from scratch. why would you have to open it, just to "tell it" I want to discard everything. This don't makes sense.

I sure hope these auto things can be disabled, because how much space would they take up, and how for how long ... 1 year worth of documents.

Its becoming like Gmail.

Also, for $29.99 10.7 is cheaper than 10.6, by only $10.. I'm guessing the lack of the physical disc did that. But heres the downside i see, since its only available on the Mac App store, one must already have an OS (10.6 with App store app) already on to upgrade. Unless it can be burt to a disc it wouldn't be of any use BUT upgrades, as who would want to install an obsolete OS just to get 10.7 at the App store?

As for a blank hard disk... I guess you'd be out of luck yes?

If Apple charged $10 for the disc, same price then basically as 10.6 eg (about $39.) I would pay that.

Mission Control looks good, but the Expose stuff yo can do that now on 10.6. Its only looks more enchanted with everything in one place.

As i started before, i probably would of said more if Safari didn't hang.

ANyone know why that would be ?

Kasalic
Jun 7, 2011, 02:29 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

While there might not be any major new features I see Lion as being what Apple does best. Refining the User experience further and adding features that the general users find useful.

Simplicated
Jun 7, 2011, 03:36 AM
please delete this

Northgrove
Jun 7, 2011, 03:51 AM
I think it'll be worthwile and will definitely get it for $29.

As for the other "250" features not being noticeable, I disagree there. Merging folders in Finder is definitely noticeable, and an all too long time overdue. Encrypted Time Machine backups? Yes, please! Should also have been there from the start. A stolen non-encrypted 1 TB backup is not a happy thought. Versioning support so you don't lose overwritten data will change how I treat, and especially worry about, document storage.

I also think you misunderstood Air Drop. That's there to simplify network sharing. It's not a cloud service. Compare to Windows 7's HomeGroups. Both features for easier local networking.

Also, as for auto-save. I'm not sure what you meant with that comment, but not all apps support auto-saving, anyway. And then it's useful for the OS to do this. It's such a common thing the user wants.

wangkom
Jun 7, 2011, 04:07 AM
No fret .... your not the only one who has the little tif about Lion.. I do to..

Or at least I do for the part of WWC on apple I saw :P... Half way through the stream, safari froze (beach ball) had to "force quit".

From what i've seen so far. Lion looks ok, might have to get used to IOS style on a Mac, but apart from that its looks good.

All these "automatic" features that "make life easier" like Autosave is good, and Previous versions. But wait...... didn't I remember Windows 7 already has previous versions .....Its probably more basic on Windows, but its still there. I wonder why Apple couldn't have included something in comparison with Snow Leopard.

While its all good with Auto save as well, there are situations you may not want to autosave... Previous versions would take you back from the applications window. But heres the thing : If a user already know even before you launch an app that you do want to start again from scratch. why would you have to open it, just to "tell it" I want to discard everything. This don't makes sense.

I sure hope these auto things can be disabled, because how much space would they take up, and how for how long ... 1 year worth of documents.

Its becoming like Gmail.

Also, for $29.99 10.7 is cheaper than 10.6, by only $10.. I'm guessing the lack of the physical disc did that. But heres the downside i see, since its only available on the Mac App store, one must already have an OS (10.6 with App store app) already on to upgrade. Unless it can be burt to a disc it wouldn't be of any use BUT upgrades, as who would want to install an obsolete OS just to get 10.7 at the App store?

As for a blank hard disk... I guess you'd be out of luck yes?

If Apple charged $10 for the disc, same price then basically as 10.6 eg (about $39.) I would pay that.

Mission Control looks good, but the Expose stuff yo can do that now on 10.6. Its only looks more enchanted with everything in one place.

As i started before, i probably would of said more if Safari didn't hang.

ANyone know why that would be ?

I used to use safari exclusively. That was until it started crashing. Now it has gotten so bad, I have switched to chrome. Chrome crashes (which are rare) at least re-open the closed tabs (in safari I have to hunt through my history to find the tabs I want to re-open).

I'm beginning to think that Apple cares more about phones and stupid phone operating systems than their desktop OS and computer business.

Look at all the problems with their computers (overheating, yellow screens, poor build quality).

Northgrove
Jun 7, 2011, 04:34 AM
All these "automatic" features that "make life easier" like Autosave is good, and Previous versions. But wait...... didn't I remember Windows 7 already has previous versions .....Its probably more basic on Windows, but its still there. I wonder why Apple couldn't have included something in comparison with Snow Leopard.
Windows Vista's new "shadow copies" feature is simply a representation of the versions made at the last System Restore point. So you don't get a new version to revert to if you save files even in Windows 7. You need a system restore point for that, and those are generally only rarely created (I earlier thought daily but it seems like not even that), or at installation of new software. This makes that feature IMHO pretty weak and I remember how often I've thought there should be a previous version available in Windows 7 when there hasn't been. Pretty confusing feature if you don't keep track of when you make restore points. I think Windows 8 is supposed to have something better that'll work more like this new feature in Lion, from leaked screenshots.

vladi
Jun 7, 2011, 05:46 AM
Lion is an OK update nothing spectacular most of it is cosmetics but as long as they tweaked some of the features and corrected some of the bugs its worthy of an upgrade.

paulsalter
Jun 7, 2011, 05:49 AM
Also not too impressed by Lion

If it gets offered on DVD at a reasonable price I will probably try it

Otherwise it will be if I get a new mac when i upgrade machines

daneoni
Jun 7, 2011, 06:18 AM
It's just enough and the $29 tag makes it a no-brainer. Tiger/Panther remain the biggest milestone updates IMHO.

Morod
Jun 7, 2011, 06:38 AM
Granted, it's not for me as I have only an iMac, no iDevices that need syncing. But so far, Lion looks like a merging of OS X and iOS, something I do not want!
Here are the new changes for Lion:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

Sorry, Launchpad reminds me of my friend's Windows screens. No likey.

grahamnp
Jun 7, 2011, 06:45 AM
I am not impressed either but I don't really expect too much from an OS upgrade. I'd rather have the upgrade focus on improving the core functionality of the OS (Finder, Time Machine etc.) and then find external apps to supply any additional functionality I need. Unfortunately for me, Lion doesn't do this and it seems more like Apple taking the first steps to merge iOS with OSX. However, as long as it works well and as promised, I won't be complaining.

ramzhh
Jun 7, 2011, 09:03 AM
No fret .... your not the only one who has the little tif about Lion.. I do to..

Or at least I do for the part of WWC on apple I saw :P... Half way through the stream, safari froze (beach ball) had to "force quit".

From what i've seen so far. Lion looks ok, might have to get used to IOS style on a Mac, but apart from that its looks good.

All these "automatic" features that "make life easier" like Autosave is good, and Previous versions. But wait...... didn't I remember Windows 7 already has previous versions .....Its probably more basic on Windows, but its still there. I wonder why Apple couldn't have included something in comparison with Snow Leopard.

While its all good with Auto save as well, there are situations you may not want to autosave... Previous versions would take you back from the applications window. But heres the thing : If a user already know even before you launch an app that you do want to start again from scratch. why would you have to open it, just to "tell it" I want to discard everything. This don't makes sense.

I sure hope these auto things can be disabled, because how much space would they take up, and how for how long ... 1 year worth of documents.

Its becoming like Gmail.

Also, for $29.99 10.7 is cheaper than 10.6, by only $10.. I'm guessing the lack of the physical disc did that. But heres the downside i see, since its only available on the Mac App store, one must already have an OS (10.6 with App store app) already on to upgrade. Unless it can be burt to a disc it wouldn't be of any use BUT upgrades, as who would want to install an obsolete OS just to get 10.7 at the App store?

As for a blank hard disk... I guess you'd be out of luck yes?

If Apple charged $10 for the disc, same price then basically as 10.6 eg (about $39.) I would pay that.

Mission Control looks good, but the Expose stuff yo can do that now on 10.6. Its only looks more enchanted with everything in one place.

As i started before, i probably would of said more if Safari didn't hang.

ANyone know why that would be ?

Actually, if you had listened carefully to Steve, you would've known that the auto saves/versions only save the CHANGES you make to your document. That saves a hell lot of space!

As for mission control, I like the redesign - which is, generally, what it is. You could already open expose while you're in spaces in Snow Leopard, but this redesign looks sweet. It's simpler.

Varigon
Jun 7, 2011, 10:45 AM
You guys must be kidding...

I have been running Lion since DP1 and it leaves Snow Leopard in the dust. I could never go back.

joelovesapple
Jun 7, 2011, 10:55 AM
You guys must be kidding...

I have been running Lion since DP1 and it leaves Snow Leopard in the dust. I could never go back.

And I can't wait to get my mucky paws on it... pardon the pun! :p

In all honesty though, I bought Brothers in Arms the road to Hill 30 from the App store not too long ago - it was about 3.2 gigs in total to download and took a couple of hours max. There are games on there that are 7 gigs so really 4 is not a huge deal. If you cannot download this at home then go somewhere where you can... let's face it, there should be more places you can download this sort of thing from because it's the 21st Century.

I do feel for those who are stuck on dial up or satellite though...

Varigon
Jun 7, 2011, 11:05 AM
It took me 20-30 minutes on my ‹ber fast fiber connection.

It's all good.

Shivetya
Jun 7, 2011, 11:24 AM
I know, full screen apps, wow, that is so Microsoft Windows like. Mission Control (or whatevah) is so like pressing with Windows Key and Tab simultaneously.

Launchpad, back to crappy looking desktops. I strive to keep my desktop clean and now they want to explode icons on it instead of the acknowledging that many of us only keep on the bar what we know we will use. If anything OS/2 had it more right.

Whats next, having to connect to the web to update my os? oops

Varigon
Jun 7, 2011, 11:27 AM
Seriously, don't make a fool out of yourself. Mission Control and full screen are totally different from what you have on Windows. Full screen doesn't equal maximize.

And Mission control... geez, if you can't see the point in that then don't upgrade.

Donza
Jun 7, 2011, 01:03 PM
Am I the only one seeing these posts emerge with every OS X release...

Is anyone actually happy with Leopard .. ?? (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=388081)

Installed Snow Leopard, not that impressed. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=800863)

Thunderbird
Jun 7, 2011, 01:12 PM
ZFS got canned due to licensing issues, but I think there was a rumor or two that Apple was writing their own (which is needed). But that'll take a while.

I know Apple failed to reach a licensing agreement with Sun. But there is an open source version called MacZFS being worked on by a couple of groups, one of which includes former Apple engineers. It's still in beta but available now.

http://code.google.com/p/maczfs/

http://tenscomplement.com/

Besides, I wasn't necessarily meaning ZFS specifically, but other file systems in general. HFS+ is getting old.

Resolution Independence got abandoned in favor of their retina display support, which has poked its head in Lion.

And R.I. poked it's head in Leopard, but never materialized either.

Blu-Ray will never happen for obvious reasons, and USB 3.0 support will come when it is included in intel's chipsets next year.

The only obvious reason for Blu-ray is Steve doesn't like it is because it interferes with the maximization of profit from cloud based streaming. Hopefully next year's Macs will carry USB 3.0 ports in their refresh with Ivy Bridge chipsets, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Apple doesn't care about consistency like they used to; just look at the new Address Book and iCal, and custom app interfaces everywhere in iOS. Whether or not you like this approach is a matter of taste. Personally I find them a bit gaudy, but I don't care all that much.

The Mac GUI is still nicer to look at than Windows, but consistancy is still an area they could improve on. My point was that for a new OS release, things like GUI consistancy across apps might be a higher priority than, say, new wallpaper.

They implemented the features that most people want.

Yes, people have wanted them for only about 10 years :rolleyes:


When does HFS Plus limit your day-to-day work? I really donít see the problem with it.

It isn't a big problem on a day to day level. But there are more secure and safe file systems out there.

Resolution independence is still not needed for some years until we have better screens.

The screens aren't the issue. Windows has partial R.I. already, and there are threads on M.R. where people complain about not being able to read certain menu texts on their 27" iMacs very well.

We all know that Blueray is a "bag of hurt" and that digital downloading will triumph Blueray.

Does 'we all" include the millions of people who already own Blu-ray discs?

Seriously, how does these things improve your daily work more than autosave, resume and mission control??

Have you used autosave, resume and mission control yet, and compared them? So far, there are already mixed feelings by many posters (who are developers) about Mission Control at least.

Nishi100
Jun 7, 2011, 01:47 PM
no, i'm with you there. I think it's reasonably cool, but it certainly isn't as amazing as i was expecting.

at least it doesn't look like windows 8, for now.

ftfy

wikus
Jun 7, 2011, 02:15 PM
I know Apple failed to reach a licensing agreement with Sun. But there is an open source version called MacZFS being worked on by a couple of groups, one of which includes former Apple engineers. It's still in beta but available now.

http://code.google.com/p/maczfs/

http://tenscomplement.com/

Besides, I wasn't necessarily meaning ZFS specifically, but other file systems in general. HFS+ is getting old.

Does ZFS offer any benefits in terms of speed or stability? My main expectation with every OS release is that it becomes more optimized (like Snow Leopard was).

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 02:17 PM
Does ZFS offer any benefits in terms of speed or stability? My main expectation with every OS release is that it becomes more optimized (like Snow Leopard was).

It would be enourmously beneficial for time machine. Read this: http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits/2006/08/4995.ars