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atacinus
Jun 7, 2011, 05:58 PM
I rarely have more than 3 chrome windows open at a time...perhaps a pages document...for me mission control is overkill and because it stacks the windows it seems worse than the current expose. Can someone who has lion running now tell me if expose still exists as an optional hotkey or if mission control drinks its entire milkshake?



ErikGrim
Jun 7, 2011, 07:36 PM
Mission control replaces all window exposť.

cksubs
Jun 8, 2011, 01:00 PM
So, there's absolutely NO way to invoke "windows" Expose? If you have two Safari windows open, and nothing else, will the windows always be stacked into a single Safari app bundle? Is there any way to have it immediately display all windows, as it used to do in Leopard?

wikus
Jun 8, 2011, 01:12 PM
So, there's absolutely NO way to invoke "windows" Expose? If you have two Safari windows open, and nothing else, will the windows always be stacked into a single Safari app bundle? Is there any way to have it immediately display all windows, as it used to do in Leopard?

I'd like to know this as well, i use expose within a single app a LOT, particularly in photoshop when im working on a project with different elements.

Bear
Jun 8, 2011, 01:22 PM
Looks like the answer to your question is in this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1166326). And if I'm reading it correctly, it's still there, just that the preferences are moved.

I think that Mission Control picture that was shown replaces one of the expose modes.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 01:33 PM
Im using Lion DP4 and i can't find any way to enable this like it is in Snow Leopard. Huge disappointment. Mission Control is a step backwards.

kristoffers4
Jun 8, 2011, 01:52 PM
Expose is still there, you can enable it in the preferences pane...

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 01:57 PM
Expose is still there, you can enable it in the preferences pane...

I don't see anywhere to enable this.

Can't display all application windows like you can in snow leopard.

kristoffers4
Jun 8, 2011, 02:09 PM
I don't see anywhere to enable this.

Can't display all application windows like you can in snow leopard.

Prefs>Trackpad>More Gestures>Exposť

nicroma
Jun 8, 2011, 02:11 PM
Can you still press and hold on the application icon on the dock to show the windows just for that application?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:13 PM
Prefs>Trackpad>More Gestures>Exposť

Thats the prob then i don't have a track pad. Mouse users are forgotten by the looks of it.

Not being able to display all application windows is really frustrating.

Can you still press and hold on the application icon on the dock to show the windows just for that application?

No.

roland.g
Jun 8, 2011, 02:15 PM
You should be able to hold click on a dock icon, Safari, etc. and get an Expose of all the current windows for that app, just like in SL, whether they are minimized or not.

On another note, Apple may try to boost Trackpad sales even more in 10.8 with double trackpad 8 finger gestures. :D

kristoffers4
Jun 8, 2011, 02:19 PM
Thats the prob then i don't have a track pad. Mouse users are forgotten by the looks of it.

Not being able to display all application windows is really frustrating.



In Mission Control you can see all your application windows.. I don't see your problem to be honest....

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:19 PM
You should be able to hold click on a dock icon, Safari, etc. and get an Expose of all the current windows for that app, just like in SL, whether they are minimized or not.

On another note, Apple may try to boost Trackpad sales even more in 10.8 with double trackpad 8 finger gestures. :D

No, you can't.

This mission control is a big set backwards for me.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:21 PM
In Mission Control you can see all your application windows.. I don't see your problem to be honest....

I have 12 windows minimised into application icon there is no way to show them like you could with expose in SL.

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 02:24 PM
I have 12 windows minimised into application icon there is no way to show them like you could with expose in SL.

Right click on dock icon. Show All Windows.

Phil A.
Jun 8, 2011, 02:25 PM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/534.32 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

Right click on the icon in the dock and select show all windows or press F10 (may need fn-f10 depending on your keyboard settings). Minimized windows are shown smaller than non minimized ones in this view

kristoffers4
Jun 8, 2011, 02:27 PM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/534.32 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

Right click on the icon in the dock and select show all windows or press F10 (may need fn-f10 depending on your keyboard settings)

F10 actually works, great!

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:27 PM
There is no way to show all minimised windows like you can in SL.

ALl Application Windows no longer exists.

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 02:31 PM
There is no way to show all minimised windows like you can in SL.

The show all windows command just shows them smaller, but still shows them all exposť style.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:33 PM
Where is the show all windows command ?

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 02:35 PM
Where is the show all windows command ?

Right click the dock icon. Show All Windows.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:38 PM
Right click the dock icon. Show All Windows.

It can't be done like in SL.

In SL you minimise Mail, iTunes, Calendar, Address Book and 4 Safari windows then select All Application Windows and all them windows would show on the screen. This is no longer possible.

This made working with many windows open very easy having the function assigned to the middle mouse click. Now having to right click and select show all windows and only for individual apps is extremely frustrating.

Phil A.
Jun 8, 2011, 02:44 PM
It can't be done like in SL.

In SL you minimise Mail, iTunes, Calendar, Address Book and 4 Safari windows then select All Application Windows and all them windows would show on the screen. This is no longer possible.

This made working with many windows open very easy now it's very frustrating.

Mission control does show the same information (+ spaces) as All Application Windows does in SL, but in a different format where windows from the same application are grouped together. I personally never really used the All Application Windows function but can see that it could be frustrating getting used to a new way of working. You can assign a shortcut to All Windows so you could use your middle mouse button to view all windows for an app, which isn't quite as flexible as showing all application windows but better than right clicking on the dock, I guess

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 02:46 PM
It can't be done like in SL.

In SL you minimise Mail, iTunes, Calendar, Address Book and 4 Safari windows then select All Application Windows and all them windows would show on the screen. This is no longer possible.

This made working with many windows open very easy now it's very frustrating.
I guess I'm confused with what you are looking to do. What you described is Exposť in SL. In Lion it is mission control now, but you still can get an overview of your current app windows by right clicking the dock icon and using Show All Windows. If you want to see every window of every app use mission control.
If I'm misunderstanding your point, please explain.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:50 PM
It can be frustrating when the new way is much slower and half baked.

In SL i never had to use the dock. Now having to right click every app individually is so cumbersome and slow. For me a huge step backwards.

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 02:53 PM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/534.32 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

Right click on the icon in the dock and select show all windows or press F10 (may need fn-f10 depending on your keyboard settings). Minimized windows are shown smaller than non minimized ones in this view

It can be frustrating when the new way is much slower and half baked.

In SL i never had to use the dock. Now having to right click every app individually is so cumbersome and slow. For me a huge step backwards.

Like Phil A. said you can use F10. No dock right clicking needed if that was your concern.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:55 PM
@mrapplegate, I'll try explain it better, i have bad English.

If you minamise 5 applications to your dock how can you have all the windows to them applications show on screen like you can in SL with "All Application Windows" function in expose.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 02:56 PM
Like Phil A. said you can use F10. No dock right clicking needed if that was your concern.

f10 does not do what I'm after.

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 03:00 PM
@mrapplegate, I'll try explain it better, i have bad English.

If you minamise 5 applications to your dock how can you have all the windows to them applications show on screen like you can in SL with All Application Windows function in expose.

No problem. I'm not a writer :D
Lets take Safari for example. If I have 10 windows open or minized F10 will show all windows for that app. If you want to look at all use mission control or command-tab to another app and use F10 to look at it's open windows.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 8, 2011, 03:09 PM
There are ways to display the windows indiviually for one app at the time, this is so slow and frustrating.

It's a shame they took this feature from SL and dropped it in Lion. I honestly don't know how I'm going to deal with out it. This has totally buggered up my work flow.

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 03:18 PM
There are ways to display the windows indiviually for one app at the time, this is so slow and frustrating.

It's a shame they took this feature from SL and dropped it in Lion. I honestly don't know how I'm going to deal with out it. This has totally buggered up my work flow.

Understandable. Change is hard to adjust to.

Mac iAm
Jun 8, 2011, 07:50 PM
There are ways to display the windows indiviually for one app at the time, this is so slow and frustrating.

It's a shame they took this feature from SL and dropped it in Lion. I honestly don't know how I'm going to deal with out it. This has totally buggered up my work flow.

I agree with Mango. It looks like minimized apps do not show up in expose or mission control. I hope they bring that back in the final build.

RT2020
Jun 8, 2011, 08:28 PM
There are ways to display the windows indiviually for one app at the time, this is so slow and frustrating.

It's a shame they took this feature from SL and dropped it in Lion. I honestly don't know how I'm going to deal with out it. This has totally buggered up my work flow.

Then don't upgrade.

I haven't seen any compelling reasons to upgrade to Lion. Now I have another reason NOT to upgrade.

cherfizzle
Jun 9, 2011, 01:04 AM
So i do not have a trackpad.

When you go into Mission Control with 5 Safari windows open...
You want to SPREAD THEM OUT like i saw in the keynote...
They use a quick GESTURE... A SWIPE.

I figured you could use the scroller on the Magic Mouse or something.
But you CAN'T.
Anyone know a way around this without a damn trackpad?

They've gone too far now giving laptops such an advantage..
Im poor and will never get one.

Mac iAm
Jun 9, 2011, 01:40 AM
So i do not have a trackpad.

When you go into Mission Control with 5 Safari windows open...
You want to SPREAD THEM OUT like i saw in the keynote...
They use a quick GESTURE... A SWIPE.

I figured you could use the scroller on the Magic Mouse or something.
But you CAN'T.
Anyone know a way around this without a damn trackpad?

They've gone too far now giving laptops such an advantage..
Im poor and will never get one.

Try better touch tool. I believe it will let you set up custom gestures for the magic mouse

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:45 AM
So i do not have a trackpad.

When you go into Mission Control with 5 Safari windows open...
You want to SPREAD THEM OUT like i saw in the keynote...
They use a quick GESTURE... A SWIPE.

I figured you could use the scroller on the Magic Mouse or something.
But you CAN'T.
Anyone know a way around this without a damn trackpad?

They've gone too far now giving laptops such an advantage..
Im poor and will never get one.

That's App Expose (show App Windows) and F10 on the keyboard does the same thing

cherfizzle
Jun 9, 2011, 06:52 AM
Try better touch tool. I believe it will let you set up custom gestures for the magic mouse

deff.. will check that out. updated for Lion?

That's App Expose (show App Windows) and F10 on the keyboard does the same thing

no its not the same..
if you watch the keynote it spreads them out while staying in mission control so you can just see them a little better.
every review of mission control shows it and addresses it.

"You can quick look windows for a closer peek before opening them entirely, as well as spread out windows from a specific application with a multitouch gesture." - http://lifehacker.com/5770609/screenshot-and-feature-tour-of-mac-os-107-lion

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 12:52 PM
If you want to see every window of every app use mission control.
If I'm misunderstanding your point, please explain.

What I'm asking is if there's a way to see "every window of every app" **without** it first grouping all the windows into stacks of applications.

Basically, I want classic Expose from OS X Leopard and below. I want to set a hotcorner to show this immediately:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3194/2387682004_3b01b9e093.jpg

Is this functionality still in Lion?

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 01:01 PM
What I'm asking is if there's a way to see "every window of every app" **without** it first grouping all the windows into stacks of applications.

Basically, I want classic Expose from OS X Leopard and below. I want to set a hotcorner to show this immediately:


Is this functionality still in Lion?
You can assign Mission Control or Application windows to a hot corner. I don't think Apple will be able to please everyone with this topic. So your hot corner can either show Application windows, which I'm going to call old exposť or Mission control, Apple's new exposť. There is no way Apple can please everyone with this move.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:11 PM
You can assign Mission Control or Application windows to a hot corner. I don't think Apple will be able to please everyone with this topic. So your hot corner can either show Application windows, which I'm going to call old exposť or Mission control, Apple's new exposť. There is no way Apple can please everyone with this move.


Thanks. Would you be able to post pics of the results of hitting those hotcorners?

So:
1. Open 3 Safari windows
2. Open 3 Finder windows
3. Open some other windows
4. Set active app to Safari

Hit "Mission Control" hotcorner, take pic

Hit "Application Windows" hotcorner, take pic

Hit "Desktop" hotcorner, take pic

I'd also be interested in what "Mission Control" does when ONLY the 3 Safari windows are open.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:13 PM
Also, "All Windows" Expose was present in an early Lion beta build:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12712949&postcount=2

Based on the hack that allowed old-style Leopard Expose in Snow Leopard, I'm hopeful that means we'll be able to get "All Windows" in Lion no matter what the final build ships with.

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 01:15 PM
Thanks. Would you be able to post pics of the results of hitting those hotcorners?

So:
1. Open 3 Safari windows
2. Open 3 Finder windows
3. Open some other windows
4. Set active app to Safari

Hit "Mission Control" hotcorner, take pic

Hit "Application Windows" hotcorner, take pic

Hit "Desktop" hotcorner, take pic

I'd also be interested in what "Mission Control" does when ONLY the 3 Safari windows are open.

There is no need to post pics. When Safari is the active app moving the mouse to Application windows shows every Safari window.
When Desktop is picked, your desktop from space 1 is shown. Mission control does just that, shows mission control. The finder is only shown in Mission Control. Application windows only shows the windows from the current app. It's not that complicated.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:22 PM
There is no need to post pics. When Safari is the active app moving the mouse to Application windows shows every Safari window.
When Desktop is picked, your desktop from space 1 is shown. Mission control does just that, shows mission control. The finder is only shown in Mission Control. Application windows only shows the windows from the current app. It's not that complicated.

The things that pics would help with:

1. Is "Application Windows" expose the _grid based_ expose from Snow Leopard? Or the _spatial_ expose from Leopard and older versions of OS X?

2. What does Mission Control look like when only one app is open?

3. What did "All Windows" look like in that earlier beta build? (from that link to the thread I posted)

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 01:25 PM
Mission Control is a step backwards, Apple **** me trying to turn their desktops into ios's.

There is simply no way to show all application windows, totally sucks.

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 01:27 PM
The things that pics would help with:

1. Is "Application Windows" expose the _grid based_ expose from Snow Leopard? Or the _spatial_ expose from Leopard and older versions of OS X?

2. What does Mission Control look like when only one app is open?

3. What did "All Windows" look like in that earlier beta build? (from that link to the thread I posted)

1. Grid based.
2. Mission control shows your desktops/Spaces up top, and the finder as well as your one open app. If Safari has more than one window open they are all shown.
3. I don't have an earlier build as I have updated everything to DP4.

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 01:34 PM
Mission Control is a step backwards, Apple **** me trying to turn their desktops into ios's.

There is simply no way to show all application windows, totally sucks.

This debate is like the Rosetta one. Things change. Lion's mission control and the sub controls available via hot corners or pressing F10 in the current app will satisfy most people. There will never be a OS that pleases everyone.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:36 PM
If Safari has more than one window open they are all shown.

So the Safari windows are shown "spread out" and individually clickable?

What if you have 2 finder windows open, 2 safari windows open. Make the windows really small. Can you ever invoke Mission Control and have all 4 windows individually selectable? No app grouping.

Basically at what point does Mission Control start grouping things into app bundles?

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 01:39 PM
What I'm asking is if there's a way to see "every window of every app" **without** it first grouping all the windows into stacks of applications.

Basically, I want classic Expose from OS X Leopard and below. I want to set a hotcorner to show this immediately:

Image (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3194/2387682004_3b01b9e093.jpg)

Is this functionality still in Lion?

Im curious about this.... BUT

Does lion display windows like this for a single application? I usually have 3-8 documents open in photoshop and switch between them via expose but ONLY display photoshop documents.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 01:41 PM
This debate is like the Rosetta one. Things change. Lion's mission control and the sub controls available via hot corners or pressing F10 in the current app will satisfy most people. There will never be a OS that pleases everyone.

Hot corners or f10 will not reproduce the function that are available in Snow Leopard. Why remove functionality, i see no reason what soever. It seems that want to turn their desktops into ios's.

Lion at it stands now has very poor window management. This is one area Apple can take some advice from MS

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:41 PM
Im curious about this.... BUT

Does lion display windows like this for a single application? I usually have 3-8 documents open in photoshop and switch between them via expose but ONLY display photoshop documents.

It sounds as if that functionality (application expose) is definitely in. Unfortunately it's the grid-based version from Snow Leopard, not the spatial version from Leopard.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:42 PM
Hot corners or f10 will not reproduce the function that are available in Snow Leopard. Why remove functionality, i see no reason what soever. It seems that would to turn their desktops into ios's.

Lion at it stands now has very poor window management. This is one area Apple can take some advice from MS

This definitely is a step back. Leopard's "All" and "App" expose modes were PERFECT. It's slowly been getting worse ever since.

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 01:43 PM
This debate is like the Rosetta one. Things change. Lion's mission control and the sub controls available via hot corners or pressing F10 in the current app will satisfy most people. There will never be a OS that pleases everyone.

this could be easily solved if apple gave its consumers CHOICE. something theyve never been comfortable with.

how difficult is it to give us the option to revert back to old expose, or keep expose as an extended method of display windows?

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 01:45 PM
So the Safari windows are shown "spread out" and individually clickable?

What if you have 2 finder windows open, 2 safari windows open. Make the windows really small. Can you ever invoke Mission Control and have all 4 windows individually selectable? No app grouping.

Basically at what point does Mission Control start grouping things into app bundles?

Yes, in mission control with one app open(Safari) and it has multiple windows open you can choose a Safari window. The finder is shown as well, but you can't close that only relaunch it. If there are multiple finder windows, you can also choose one.
If the Safari windows are minimized, only the active ones are able to be selected in mission control.
I don't know what Apple's thoughts are but I don't have a problem with the process. Your choice is simple, buy or not buy.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 01:47 PM
I can have 15 windows open at any one time and have 8 minimised, there is simply no way to show them all on screen at once. like in SL. SUper Huge step backwards.

MISSION FAILED!!!!

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 01:49 PM
So the Safari windows are shown "spread out" and individually clickable?

What if you have 2 finder windows open, 2 safari windows open. Make the windows really small. Can you ever invoke Mission Control and have all 4 windows individually selectable? No app grouping.

Basically at what point does Mission Control start grouping things into app bundles?

It always groups windows from the same app together. You can hover over a window and press space to quick view it and you can also separate the windows out a bit with a gesture (thanks to cherfizzle for pointing that out above): On the magic mouse its a swipe upwards.

I actually prefer the new way as it keeps things easier to find: With the old all windows expose it could be difficult to find anything if you had a lot of small windows. With the new one, you can quickly identify the app you are interested in and then zero in on the specific window you want

Edit:
I've just dug out an old mighty mouse, and you can also spread the windows out by hovering over them and scrolling up, so it doesn't seem like you have to have a multi-touch device to get all the functionality

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 01:49 PM
this could be easily solved if apple gave its consumers CHOICE. something theyve never been comfortable with.

how difficult is it to give us the option to revert back to old expose, or keep expose as an extended method of display windows?

Progress is about moving forward. I think it gets to a point where you can't move forward and always give people choices to stay in the past. Just my opinion since I don't think Mission control or that lack of an old style Exposť will hinder my daily workflow.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 01:53 PM
Yes, in mission control with one app open(Safari) and it has multiple windows open you can choose a Safari window. The finder is shown as well, but you can't close that only relaunch it. If there are multiple finder windows, you can also choose one.
If the Safari windows are minimized, only the active ones are able to be selected in mission control.
I don't know what Apple's thoughts are but I don't have a problem with the process. Your choice is simple, buy or not buy.

I don't get people who have the "Apple can do whatever they want to do with their software, users don't have to buy it" mentality. Not just with Apple, but for any company. I love reviewing things, complaining about things, etc. Seems strange when people don't have a preference, are just ok with whatever is given to them. Not an insult, I just don't get it.

Anyway, can anyone confirm what I'm asking about "at what point does it start grouping windows into app bundles?"

For example, can I have 3 apps, containing 8 total windows, and it will still show all windows spread out?

But then when I add a 9th window it will start grouping things into app bundles?

Could someone post a screenshot of Mission Control **without** app grouping?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 01:54 PM
With no way of displaying all windows including minimised windows for me this is huge step backwards just like when they removed the list view from folder in the dock in Leopard. Due to so many complaints that had to re-add the feature. Why on earth remove features.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:01 PM
I don't get people who have the "Apple can do whatever they want to do with their software, users don't have to buy it" mentality. Not just with Apple, but for any company. I love reviewing things, complaining about things, etc. Seems strange when people don't have a preference, are just ok with whatever is given to them. Not an insult, I just don't get it.

Anyway, can anyone confirm what I'm asking about "at what point does it start grouping windows into app bundles?"

For example, can I have 3 apps, containing 8 total windows, and it will still show all windows spread out?

But then when I add a 9th window it will start grouping things into app bundles?

Could someone post a screenshot of Mission Control **without** app grouping?

As I said above, Mission control always groups windows from the same app that are on the same screen / desktop together in the "all windows" view. All App windows is a separate view and shows all the windows from a specific app spread out

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:03 PM
It sounds as if that functionality (application expose) is definitely in. Unfortunately it's the grid-based version from Snow Leopard, not the spatial version from Leopard.

Thats really stupid. If im working with 5+ documents, i dont want to see thumbnails, i want to know which document to go to.

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:06 PM
Progress is about moving forward. I think it gets to a point where you can't move forward and always give people choices to stay in the past. Just my opinion since I don't think Mission control or that lack of an old style Exposť will hinder my daily workflow.

Progress is also not fixing things that aren't broken. You can see already the amount of dissatisfaction for mission control. This will only increase once lion goes public. Apple pulled a similar stunt with list view folders when put into the dock. They eventually brought it back.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 02:07 PM
As I said above, Mission control always groups windows from the same app together in the "all windows" view. All App windows is a separate view and shows all the windows from a specific app spread out

Ok, mrapplegate seemed to be saying something different. It's the overlapping part that I find so weird. Wish it would separate the windows out, when there's room.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:09 PM
Thats really stupid. If im working with 5+ documents, i dont want to see thumbnails, i want to know which document to go to.

The advantage of Mission control grouping windows together into apps is that the windows tend to be bigger (as there isn't as many to fit onto the "grid"). You can easily spread the windows from an app out to see them all clearly and quick view one or open it.
Mission control is definitely different to expose and some things (such as no minimized windows showing in all window view, which may just be a bug) are slightly annoying but I personally think it's a big improvement over expose in SL

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:11 PM
The advantage of Mission control grouping windows together into apps is that the windows tend to be bigger (as there isn't as many to fit onto the "grid"). You can easily spread the windows from an app out to see them all clearly and quick view one or open it.
Mission control is definitely different to expose and some things (such as no minimized windows showing in all window view, which may just be a bug) are slightly annoying but I personally think it's a big improvement over expose in SL

Like i said earlier, mission control needs more OPTIONS. I want and pretty much NEED expose to run just like it does in Snow Leopard. Its the best way for me to be productive. Mission Control is going to be extremely counter productive.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:12 PM
Ok, mrapplegate seemed to be saying something different. It's the overlapping part that I find so weird. Wish it would separate the windows out, when there's room.

I think you're getting confused between All Windows view (i.e. Mission control, the replacement for all windows expose) and All app windows view.

The first is the desktop overview that groups app windows together. They are overlapped but you can spread them out with the mouse (scroll wheel / ball or swipe up) or touchpad and you can also quickview them

The second shows all windows from a specific application and shows minimized windows as thumbnails below all non-minimized windows. This view never overlaps windows

mrapplegate
Jun 9, 2011, 02:13 PM
Progress is also not fixing things that aren't broken.
Debatable as well :D

Progress is also not fixing things that aren't broken. You can see already the amount of dissatisfaction for mission control. This will only increase once lion goes public. Apple pulled a similar stunt with list view folders when put into the dock. They eventually brought it back.

I feel for all those that are annoyed at Apple and only time will tell if it gets changed. It is all about percentages. How many people are truly inconvenienced by the change?.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 02:15 PM
The second shows all windows from a specific application and shows minimized windows as thumbnails below all non-minimized windows. This view never overlaps windows

How is this enabled ? for the life of me i can't get this happening.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:16 PM
How is this enabled ? for the life of me i can't get this happening.

F10 (or fn-F10 if you don't have "use all F1, F2 etc. keys as standard function keys" set in keyboard prefs) when you are in an application

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 02:17 PM
F10 (or fn-F10) when you are in an application

Doing this does not display all windows including minimised.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 02:18 PM
The second shows all windows from a specific application and shows minimized windows as thumbnails below all non-minimized windows. This view never overlaps windows

Yeah, exactly. This is good familiar behavior, a holdover from Snow Leopard.

I think the main complaint in this topic is that this view now only exists for a single application at a time. No way to do it for all open windows.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 02:21 PM
This makes it even worse if you minimise windows into application icon there is simply no way to display them. So one has no idea what windows they have. Apple have completely screwed up here.

One can hope the functionality is restored in the final release of Lion.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 02:24 PM
This makes it even worse if you minimise windows into application icon there is simply no way to display them. So one has no idea what windows they have. Apple have completely screwed up here.

One can hope the functionality is restored in the final release of Lion.

This one seems more like a bug to me. It'll probably make it in to the final version.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:26 PM
Doing this does not display all windows including minimised.
It does - have a look at the attached screenshot. The five windows at the bottom are minimized ones and the three larger ones are non-minimized

ClearRPG
Jun 9, 2011, 02:30 PM
It can be done I have DP4 right now. You go to settings and change mission control to app exposť and it looks the same as in SL. The mission control is obviously replaced until you switch it back.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 02:31 PM
Now try that with multiple application with multiple windows have some active and some minimised. It's a no go.

cksubs
Jun 9, 2011, 02:32 PM
It does - have a look at the attached screenshot. The five windows at the bottom are minimized ones and the three larger ones are non-minimized

What function is this, App Expose?

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:32 PM
I'm almost tempted to just acquire a DP4 copy of Lion and see it for myself. But I know things can change until the final release.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 02:36 PM
Now try that with multiple application with multiple windows have some active and some minimised. It's a no go.

It's already been established earlier in this thread that it currently doesn't include minimized windows in mission control view. It could well be a bug or it could be by design

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 02:37 PM
It's already been established earlier in this thread that it currently doesn't include minimized windows in mission control view. It could well be a bug or it could be by design

Lets hope it's a bug and the the shipping version of LIon has this functionality back.

alerus
Jun 9, 2011, 03:41 PM
Their keynote gives a prime example of why Mission Control sucks compared to the old all windows. He starts off by talking about how usually his desktop has tons of windows open and then says mission control address this. This is the image we get:

http://www.onesouthdesign.com/random/missionControl1.png

How is that a better solution to this problem?? With Snow Leopard (and back all the way to 10.3) you press one button and *all* windows are visible. The third preview window in mission control has a tiny corner visible... This demo does not demonstrate that mission control more successfully solves this problem than previous iterations. On the contrary, it demonstrates that it is not as good as solution as previous iterations.

To add insult to injury, their "app preview" which requires two steps, *still* doesn't replicate the same functionality for even the previewed app.

http://www.onesouthdesign.com/random/missionControl2.png

The third window is *still* largely obscured. Massive fail Apple.

I know bitching can be annoying, but I feel a big stink about this has to be made if there is to ever be hope that Apple leaves the old expose in as at least an option.

gumblecosby
Jun 10, 2011, 04:49 AM
Their keynote gives a prime example of why Mission Control sucks compared to the old all windows. He starts off by talking about how usually his desktop has tons of windows open and then says mission control address this. This is the image we get:


How is that a better solution to this problem?? With Snow Leopard (and back all the way to 10.3) you press one button and *all* windows are visible. The third preview window in mission control has a tiny corner visible... This demo does not demonstrate that mission control more successfully solves this problem than previous iterations. On the contrary, it demonstrates that it is not as good as solution as previous iterations.

To add insult to injury, their "app preview" which requires two steps, *still* doesn't replicate the same functionality for even the previewed app.


The third window is *still* largely obscured. Massive fail Apple.

I know bitching can be annoying, but I feel a big stink about this has to be made if there is to ever be hope that Apple leaves the old expose in as at least an option.


A better solution for displaying those 3 windows would be to show them in a 10.5 expose manner when you spread them, i.e. you see all of the 3 windows fully at their relative size.

Sort of like this:
http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/sta/Expose3.png

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 04:52 AM
We should all switch all to WIndows 7

richard.mac
Jun 10, 2011, 06:28 AM
This has got way too complicated, lets set this straight:

- Mission Control has replaced Snow Leopard's 'All Windows' expose
- You can still do 'Application Windows' expose by right clicking an app Dock icon and choosing "Show All Windows" or set a keyboard shortcut in Mission Control preferences (or F9, which is an old shortcut). This will also show minimised windows.
- There is no more hold the Dock icon or scroll up for Application Windows expose :(
- Few tips for Mission Control: press space bar over a window to zoom it and scroll up on a group of windows to 'peek' at them

CrzyCanuck72
Jun 10, 2011, 08:08 AM
A better solution for displaying those 3 windows would be to show them in a 10.5 expose manner when you spread them, i.e. you see all of the 3 windows fully at their relative size.

Sort of like this:
Image (http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/sta/Expose3.png)

This is all I want. 10.5 Expose was perfect. None of this "mission control" crap.

roland.g
Jun 10, 2011, 12:31 PM
I have to side with BlackMango on this one. I too am a creature of the minimize habit. Spaces have always bugged me a bit because even though I will set certain apps to them, they sometimes don't behave quite like I want them to. However, I do use all windows Expose to see all my open app windows, which I am fairly certain shows all windows from all spaces. Whereas the Lion Mission Control way seems to show all windows expose/stacked style of that space, but you have to change to a new space and reinvoke to see the windows of that particular space.

And it sounds like a real bummer if you don't get minimized windows in that view. But it may just require that I change my approach. Most likely I will try to eliminate minimizing if I can, use the F10 method for some apps like safari where I truly have multiple windows open, and try to relegate almost all windows to my main desktop, saving the spaces for full-screen apps.

There are too many great features in Lion not to upgrade. The new mail with conversations, LaunchPad which I personally like, full-screen apps, enhanced gestures, Safari Reading List, new iCal, Resume, full-screen screen sharing. I like the swipe gestures, though in Safari I would prefer that it go from tab to tab rather than forward and back. Some people are knocking LaunchPad but I like the idea of better stack-like organization for apps than the current way. With LP I can decide not to use folders and set each page of apps for certain apps and swipe across pages. I would like the folders more if they were visually represented by a stack or a customizable OS X folder rather than an icon filled iOS folder with a name. That just bothers me.

I was planning on getting my new iMac after Lion's release so it would come preloaded, however, BlackMango made me think I might want it now so I can revert to SL if I don't like it. Who am I kidding, too many things in 10.7 that I find useful, so while I am bummed that Mission Control doesn't show minimized apps or all app expose across every space like SL, I will probably find a better workflow that fits with the way it is designed, and get used to that pretty quickly.

fredcintra
Jun 10, 2011, 12:35 PM
This has got way too complicated, lets set this straight:


- There is no more hold the Dock icon or scroll up for Application Windows expose :(

In DP4 they changed the scroll up to double-tap with two fingers
An scroll down with 3-4 fingers is back but disabled by default

capoeira4u
Jun 11, 2011, 12:49 PM
Give me Lion, but without Mission Control please! I often work on documents, and edit photo and clips, and I need to see and compare my work side-by-side. Mission Control doesn't allow that and I'm seriously considering downgrade back to SL.

labaom
Jun 11, 2011, 01:15 PM
Give me Lion, but without Mission Control please! I often work on documents, and edit photo and clips, and I need to see and compare my work side-by-side. Mission Control doesn't allow that and I'm seriously considering downgrade back to SL.

There is no problem staying at Snow Leopard. I am confident Snow Leopard will be supported for at least 2-3 years (leaning toward 3). There is no REAL reason it shouldn't compared to Lion as the only differences are bad gestures, useless features, and removal of the great all app expose while replacing it with Mission Control (Apple's attempt to foce spaces down our throats).

Tiger can still be used alright. However, many applications are not supported like Chrome, Firefox ect. Leopard is holding strong and is turning 4 years old. Because Snow Leopard is turning 2 years old, I know it has life in it. Since Snow Leopard made Leopard better, I believe it could last longer. Since Lion brings no internal features, there is no reason Apple couldn't support it at long as Lion is supported.

I understand Lion can still change. But we have a month until it is released and they are only fixing bugs now. What we see now is what we will probably get. Therefore, I am sticking with Snow Leopard as long as I can or until Lion lets me do everything Snow Leopard is able to let me do. Besides... the UI in Lion is really ugly.

alerus
Jun 12, 2011, 04:22 PM
A better solution for displaying those 3 windows would be to show them in a 10.5 expose manner when you spread them, i.e. you see all of the 3 windows fully at their relative size.

Sort of like this:
Image (http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/sta/Expose3.png)

Yeah, at a bare minimum the "app preview" of mission control should do that. It boggles my mind that the preview button *still* won't show all the windows like in your above image. Ideally of course, they should keep the all windows mode intact as another option. There is absolutely nothing wrong with options. If some people prefer Mission Control, I wouldn't care that they added it in. Just let me do things the way I prefer and the way I've been doing them since 10.3!

gumblecosby
Jun 13, 2011, 01:36 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

2 finger double tapping a dock icon does not activate application expose on older trackpads (whereas 2 finger swipe up worked fine in dp2). There is also no proper preference to change is back. The Trackpad preference pane is different for older models.

Also, the worrying thing is that apple will not listen to any complaints regarding mission control. They ignored complaints made about expose in Snow Leopard.

Fortunately there was an early 10.6 developer build that contained a Dock.app with old expose. I use that Dock.app still to this day.

cksubs
Jul 20, 2011, 01:59 PM
Bump now that Lion is officially out. I'll buy a beer for the first person to successfully hack Leopard-style Expose back in :)

Porco
Jul 21, 2011, 11:53 AM
This thread makes me sad... Leopard Exposť + hot corners was perfect, and one of my favourite features on the mac since Panther. Snow Leopard made it slightly less good, but certainly still great. Mission Control looks like a real kludgy mess by comparison, though I guess I should reserve judgement until I use it. *sigh*

Chronolemon
Jul 21, 2011, 02:07 PM
Exposť has been changed to App Exposť. As far as I can tell when you do perform it it only exposes the windows for that particular app...

Jeordeon
Jul 21, 2011, 02:42 PM
System prefs, hot corners, app windows. Bam.

In mission control, scrolling on applications spreads them out a bit.

Porco
Jul 21, 2011, 05:42 PM
System prefs, hot corners, app windows. Bam.


Yeah, but it was all Windows that was the really useful one to me. Hopefully they'll add it back later.

Stacks 2011 edition. :rolleyes: