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View Full Version : OSX Lion not worth it, not impressed, nothing new




killerbee79
Jun 7, 2011, 08:49 PM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....



ErikGrim
Jun 7, 2011, 08:53 PM
I could go on and on.

And you do. Thank you for that worthless post. Stay with Snow Leopard and be happy.

Cole JM
Jun 7, 2011, 08:53 PM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

Someone needs to watch the keynote again.

Cougarcat
Jun 7, 2011, 09:07 PM
One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.



Good news! Apple's been working on this since the late 1980s! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WdS4TscWH8) Should be any day now!

NameUndecided
Jun 7, 2011, 10:20 PM
If you're happy with the older OS and you just want some handicap-accessible features enabled, there's nothing wrong with that. But it just seems funny to confuse that with constructive criticism (???).

Controlling Your Mac With Speech Recognition. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgQ6STYCsEY)
(this video is just over two years old. these features might even be improved now, and possibly more so with Lion.)

VPrime
Jun 7, 2011, 10:45 PM
For me there are a few features that make it a huge step up from snow leopard worth the time.
Again these are just features that I am loving.
-Auto save/versions. Amazing. It is a realy simple version control. I currently manually save every 5 or 10 minutes to a new file incase I mess something up. Now built in.

-Select some files, and it makes a new fodler and stores them in it. Amazing.
-Merge content of folders
-Cut and paste of files.
-Low power wake fo file sharing. So If I need a file from another mac it won't turn on the monitor and junk. Just enough to get me my files.
-Mission control.. Makes me feel like a space man :D
-File sorting. New (much needed) additions finally make the finder more usable.

-Per user screen sharing - AMAZING. I have been really looking forward to this.

-Air drop. Depending on the speed of this, I assume this will be quite handy. Should be quicker than going and setting up a shared folder for a single file. (or moving a file to a shared folder).

rmbrown09
Jun 7, 2011, 10:57 PM
I agree with OP.
Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Look at Windows 8 videos, looks awesome. The tiling scheme (same implementation as on their new phones, which I am currently trying to get and sell my IP4) makes the OS feel fresh truly new.

Windows 8 I have a feeling is going to destroy OSX in terms of what changed from version to version this time around.

Very soon I won't be an iPhone user (been once since a week after the first one arrived) and if Windows 8 really nails it, a mac user either.

emaja
Jun 8, 2011, 12:54 AM
I agree with OP.Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Apple transitioned to Intel 5 years ago. Time to get apps that work with the new architecture.

ThomasJL
Jun 8, 2011, 01:11 AM
Apple transitioned to Intel 5 years ago. Time to get apps that work with the new architecture.

There are several useful PowerPC applications that have never been ported nor rewritten for Intel processors. Many of those applications have no Intel equivalent. Rosetta is tiny, and takes up an inconsequential amount of space. Apple should have, at the very least, included it as an install option with Lion, just as they did with Snow Leopard.

Cougarcat
Jun 8, 2011, 01:22 AM
Rosetta is tiny, and takes up an inconsequential amount of space.

That's just the enabler application. All System files in 10.6 have to be intel/ppc compatible for Rosetta to work. Now, they can be intel-only, which will make them easier to maintain and improve.

I cried about losing Alpha Centauri for five minutes, but then I realized it's just time to move on.

rmbrown09
Jun 8, 2011, 01:23 AM
There are several useful PowerPC applications that have never been ported nor rewritten for Intel processors. Many of those applications have no Intel equivalent. Rosetta is tiny, and takes up an inconsequential amount of space. Apple should have, at the very least, included it as an install option with Lion, just as they did with Snow Leopard.

The good news here is, you can guarantee a 3rd party dev is going to make a sudo Rosetta or workaround.

The bad news is, DP4 seems to have killed my sound again, time to go thread searching to see how I fixed it last time.

emaja
Jun 8, 2011, 01:33 AM
There are several useful PowerPC applications that have never been ported nor rewritten for Intel processors. Many of those applications have no Intel equivalent. Rosetta is tiny, and takes up an inconsequential amount of space. Apple should have, at the very least, included it as an install option with Lion, just as they did with Snow Leopard.

I understand that, but how long does Apple need to carry these developers along? They have had plenty of time to update.

baryon
Jun 8, 2011, 04:25 AM
One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Yeah I agree with you 100%! I mean Lion is a bad OS because it doesn't have an AI that reads your mind. Also, what I think is crap in Lion is that it's not a Ferrari. I mean what the hell? How is adding "Mission Control" going to make it like a Ferrari? How, Apple?? And how are invisible scroll bars going to make Lion behave more like a Ferrari? That doesn't even make sense!

BR485
Jun 8, 2011, 05:52 AM
-Cut and paste of files.

Now this is a truly innovative and AMAZING new feature. :rolleyes:

If Apple wants its OS to be a serious contender with, as much as it pains me to say this, Windows 7 and 8 it really, really needs to revamp OS X and keep it separate from iOS.

With Lion, unfortunately, they seem to be moving in the opposite direction and it remains to be seen how "serious" users (as opposed to iOS aficionados) will react to the new OS.

wackymacky
Jun 8, 2011, 10:34 PM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

Maybe I'm just a rich snob, but it is only $20.00 we're talking about. What does that buy you now days: A coffee, bagel and a newspaper. If you don't like it don't upgrade.

The clear point about Lion, rightly or wrongly, is it is all about trying to cloud intergrate, and if it worked well, then that's worth twenty lousy bucks!

I agree with OP.
Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Look at Windows 8 videos, looks awesome. The tiling scheme (same implementation as on their new phones, which I am currently trying to get and sell my IP4) makes the OS feel fresh truly new.

Windows 8 I have a feeling is going to destroy OSX in terms of what changed from version to version this time around.

Very soon I won't be an iPhone user (been once since a week after the first one arrived) and if Windows 8 really nails it, a mac user either.

Cool, Buy a PC with Windows 8, and a Windows based phone, and go hang out on one of those forums.

Yes you can comment on your thoughts on mac OS, but just saying that Windows is sooo much better ads no value.

NameUndecided
Jun 8, 2011, 11:08 PM
Maybe I'm just a rich snob, but it is only $20.00 we're talking about. What does that buy you now days: A coffee, bagel and a newspaper. If you don't like it don't upgrade.

Pardon me, but it's $30, not $20, isn't it? That's a coffee and a half, a bagel and a half, and a newspaper and a half. And for that price, I do think that it's reasonable to expect my OS to read my mind and be my butler too.

rmbrown09
Jun 8, 2011, 11:20 PM
Maybe I'm just a rich snob, but it is only $20.00 we're talking about. What does that buy you now days: A coffee, bagel and a newspaper. If you don't like it don't upgrade.

The clear point about Lion, rightly or wrongly, is it is all about trying to cloud intergrate, and if it worked well, then that's worth twenty lousy bucks!



Cool, Buy a PC with Windows 8, and a Windows based phone, and go hang out on one of those forums.

Yes you can comment on your thoughts on mac OS, but just saying that Windows is sooo much better ads no value.

In fact I already do. No where did I say Windows was better. I am saying Lion progressed OSX almost no where and after SL that was supposed to be an under the hood minor upgrade, this is just the same thing - the under the hood.

I am quite tired of iOS, can't wait to get off of it.
What I hate more than anything are blind Apple fanboys. Obviously a forum like this is a place ripe with a higher population of them.

Don't get upset that facts are being pointed out here.
Windows 8 = looking innovative.
Windows Phone 7 = looking innovative
OSX = still awesome but hasn't moved much in the last few years
iOS 5 = playing catch up with other OS' (android like notifications, hard button camera now) and is plain boring now after using it for 4 years.


My Assessment of Lion
*Re-skin core apps like Mail and Finder
*Update Spotlight
*Air Drop
*TRIM
*FileVault update

Seriously.... not good enough for a whole OS update, especially after SL that was a minor upgrade OS. (under the hood)

Windows 8 looks like it is stepping way out there with the newest coming version. Lion seems like it played it safe.

JKK photography
Jun 8, 2011, 11:35 PM
John Dvorak sums up my critique of Microsoft's OS in This Week in Tech. Go listen to that. I'm not about to type it all out. A major step up in the UI is worthless if it's a stupid step.

Next, you guys haven't used the Lion previews. That's cool; if you have a laptop, you're going to adore it. The combination of the fullscreen apps and the simple swipe to move between the full screen apps is beautiful for productivity. I've been off the developer previews for a full month, and I still miss that feature so much.

8CoreWhore
Jun 8, 2011, 11:36 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

Here's a list of 250 new features, most of which have not been discussed much.

NameUndecided
Jun 8, 2011, 11:40 PM
I've been on a Mac for only nearing two years now, so I certainly don't have a lot of firsthand knowledge on OSX's evolution. So that leads me to ask: years ago, was Leopard really was such a leap in progress over OSX Tiger that makes the changes happening now seem relatively pithy in comparison?

To me, Lion feels very different in its UI over Snow Leopard. Fullscreen apps and increased use of gestures and involvement of mission control and all else that could seem relatively small as individual improvements do make quite a difference. To me it very much feels like a worthwhile improvement.

Whether anyone else likes Lion or not isn't my concern and I'm not trying to argue for either side (massively silly) since I know that I'm happy with it. But I wonder if previous updates to OSX have created such precedence that could be lending to any of the disappointment that some people are feeling now(?).

kirky29
Jun 8, 2011, 11:59 PM
To me, it's the smaller changes, the changes that actually help your day-to-day productivity, like:

Right click > New Folder with selected
When you drag items, it tells you how many you're dragging
Improved Quick-look
Versions that automatically backup all the time
Auto correct typing
Hold a letter down and it'll show the alts
Right click on a word and it'll show the dictionary without opening the app
Launchpad
Full screen preview
New & improved Mail App
Loads better Spotlight with previews
Year view in iCal
New Spaces (although I did like some of the old spaces features)
Low power network usage for files
Double tap to zoom in (like on iOS)
More Quicktime tools
Resume option when you restart your Mac
Per user screen sharing
iOS like scrollbars

They're some of the things I'm liking so far!

42streetsdown
Jun 9, 2011, 12:01 AM
All this complaining about so called minor upgrades of the OS is stupid. Seriously, by the standards of the posters before me ALL OS X upgrades have been minor. Leopard just added eye candy! OS X has changed over the years, but look at 10.0, it's the same OS, and each version added things to get it to where it is today. Just because you think these new feature are small and insignificant doesn't make it so. Stop whining about it.

NameUndecided
Jun 9, 2011, 12:03 AM
All this complaining about so called minor upgrades of the OS is stupid. Seriously, by the standards of the posters before me ALL OS X upgrades have been minor. Leopard just added eye candy! OS X has changed over the years, but look at 10.0, it's the same OS, and each version added things to get it to where it is today. Just because you think these new feature are small and insignificant doesn't make it so. Stop whining about it.

I think that that's pretty much what I was seeking confirmation of with my previous post.

wankey
Jun 9, 2011, 12:15 AM
God some of you Apple users are ***** pathetic and childlike. I feel so bad that people like to own the same brand as I do. You pay $300 for over priced hardware and complain and they release a $30 COMPLETE OS UPGRADE that took hundreds of thousands of programming and graphic design hours to put together.

Spoiled brats and worthless post.

Lion has a ton of things to offer. If you are unimpressed, name some features that you'd like to be put into Lion what would impress you.

Go.

appleguy123
Jun 9, 2011, 12:23 AM
For me there are a few features that make it a huge step up from snow leopard worth the time.
Again these are just features that I am loving.
-Auto save/versions. Amazing. It is a realy simple version control. I currently manually save every 5 or 10 minutes to a new file incase I mess something up. Now built in.

-Select some files, and it makes a new fodler and stores them in it. Amazing.
-Merge content of folders
-Cut and paste of files.
-Low power wake fo file sharing. So If I need a file from another mac it won't turn on the monitor and junk. Just enough to get me my files.
-Mission control.. Makes me feel like a space man :D
-File sorting. New (much needed) additions finally make the finder more usable.

-Per user screen sharing - AMAZING. I have been really looking forward to this.

-Air drop. Depending on the speed of this, I assume this will be quite handy. Should be quicker than going and setting up a shared folder for a single file. (or moving a file to a shared folder).
How do I activate versions? It's not working for me. DP 4.

palpatine
Jun 9, 2011, 12:35 AM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

i guess we watched different feeds of the keynote address. in mine, apple radically re-engineered everything to finally make it so that computers are beginning to realize their potential as things of beauty, elegance, art, and productivity. computers have often seemed like glorified calculators and word processors to me over the years, but this is the culmination of a trend to make them something more, and this is the first operating system i am actually excited about.

the stuff that you seem to want is not ai, but voice recognition. it exists. install dragon naturally speaking or some other app like that if you want to chat up your computer. i don't really want to be hanging out in an office or coffee shop with a bunch of people yelling at their computers, but if that is your idea of a better operating system, then you can have it right now :)

personally, in terms of getting things done (gtd), i can type a lot faster than i speak. the integration of everything (ios 5, lion, icloud, the trackpad, etc.) is going to change everything. again.

EDIT: Oh, and it is only 30 dollars. Incredible.

Treeman574
Jun 9, 2011, 03:58 AM
Looks interesting, the most useful features for me will be the dropbox and autosave features. Overall more aesthetic changes than productive ones, I imagine I'll miss the scroll bar once it's gone. Hopefully there options for the older layout / design hidden in system preferences somewhere.

Launchpad just makes your screen look like an ipad, but without the touch screen (new feature for 2012 models maybe?). Not really useful if you know how to use the dock.

The lack of an install disk is annoying. If I can't do a fresh install on an ssd for my macbook pro, then I won't be upgrading until that is done.

PBF
Jun 9, 2011, 04:14 AM
Agreed with the OP 100%.

I still use Mac OS 9.2.2 and refuse to upgrade.

Bernard SG
Jun 9, 2011, 04:16 AM
This kind of thread... :rolleyes:
I watched the keynote, I'm not afraid to say: Lion is revolutionizing desktop computing.
Like they love to say at 1, Infinite Loop: "It changes everything. Again."

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 05:58 AM
Don't get upset that facts are being pointed out here.
Windows 8 = looking innovative.
Windows Phone 7 = looking innovative
OSX = still awesome but hasn't moved much in the last few years
iOS 5 = playing catch up with other OS' (android like notifications, hard button camera now) and is plain boring now after using it for 4 years.
.

Nice trolling with no clue whatsoever, pal.

Cougarcat
Jun 9, 2011, 07:22 AM
I'll miss the scroll bar once it's gone. Hopefully there options for the older layout / design hidden in system preferences somewhere.


There's an option to keep the scrollbars visible.


The lack of an install disk is annoying. If I can't do a fresh install on an ssd for my macbook pro, then I won't be upgrading until that is done.


You can do a fresh install.

admmasters
Jun 9, 2011, 07:43 AM
Now this is a truly innovative and AMAZING new feature. :rolleyes:

If Apple wants its OS to be a serious contender with, as much as it pains me to say this, Windows 7 and 8 it really, really needs to revamp OS X and keep it separate from iOS.

With Lion, unfortunately, they seem to be moving in the opposite direction and it remains to be seen how "serious" users (as opposed to iOS aficionados) will react to the new OS.


Windows 8 like a tablet OS and doesn't seem 'serious', it also looks like it's got Windows 7 underneath, great revamp! Scrolling through those tiles with a mouse is not going to be a lot of fun. At least I can use Lion with a mouse.

joelovesapple
Jun 9, 2011, 08:43 AM
John Dvorak sums up my critique of Microsoft's OS in This Week in Tech. Go listen to that. I'm not about to type it all out. A major step up in the UI is worthless if it's a stupid step.

Next, you guys haven't used the Lion previews. That's cool; if you have a laptop, you're going to adore it. The combination of the fullscreen apps and the simple swipe to move between the full screen apps is beautiful for productivity. I've been off the developer previews for a full month, and I still miss that feature so much.

Is that the In Beckys' Pants episode? Can't see anything else referring to what you mean... Got a link please?

jacobson00
Jun 9, 2011, 08:54 AM
i wished it was 19.99

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 09:03 AM
Nice trolling with no clue whatsoever, pal.

I agree with him actually though. And I like Apple products.

ri0ku
Jun 9, 2011, 09:33 AM
God some of you Apple users are ***** pathetic and childlike. I feel so bad that people like to own the same brand as I do. You pay $300 for over priced hardware and complain and they release a $30 COMPLETE OS UPGRADE that took hundreds of thousands of programming and graphic design hours to put together.

Spoiled brats and worthless post.

Lion has a ton of things to offer. If you are unimpressed, name some features that you'd like to be put into Lion what would impress you.

Go.

Agreed

If they were charging £130 for it I could slightly agree with some of the moaning..however its $30 which will likely be £29 here in the UK. That is a fantastic price for a whole OS update. Especially when windows 7 versions are costing around the £120 and upwards mark.

ri0ku
Jun 9, 2011, 09:39 AM
i guess we watched different feeds of the keynote address. in mine, apple radically re-engineered everything to finally make it so that computers are beginning to realize their potential as things of beauty, elegance, art, and productivity. computers have often seemed like glorified calculators and word processors to me over the years, but this is the culmination of a trend to make them something more, and this is the first operating system i am actually excited about.

the stuff that you seem to want is not ai, but voice recognition. it exists. install dragon naturally speaking or some other app like that if you want to chat up your computer. i don't really want to be hanging out in an office or coffee shop with a bunch of people yelling at their computers, but if that is your idea of a better operating system, then you can have it right now :)

personally, in terms of getting things done (gtd), i can type a lot faster than i speak. the integration of everything (ios 5, lion, icloud, the trackpad, etc.) is going to change everything. again.

EDIT: Oh, and it is only 30 dollars. Incredible.

I agree with most of this too, but you can type faster than you speak? Really?... that is a bit farfetched. Unless you have a speaking disorder I guess.

paulsalter
Jun 9, 2011, 09:43 AM
Definitely worth the price and has lots of new features

apart from that I am not impressed, the only feature that is making me want to upgrade is getting iCloud so i can keep my devices in sync like they do now

other features/new looks to things i will want to turn off as many as possible

Duluth Baptist
Jun 9, 2011, 11:52 AM
For those complaining that Lion is taking some iOS features, have you seen what Windows is doing? They are actually designing an OS that is intended both for desktops and tablets.

I was skeptical when I saw that there were going to be iOS-like features in Lion, but following the keynote I am pleased. The first major feature is the application screen, which isn't normally visible and is easily selectable. The second major feature is the increased use of gestures, which to me is a brilliant direction for Apple to be taking.

The issue with touchscreen computers has been discussed, but it bears repeating: in practical terms, it isn't easy to hold your arm up to touch a computer monitor with any frequency. Tablets can rest in your lap or be held like a book, which makes some more sense, but on a desk a touchscreen computer gets old in a hurry. Apple has spoken of this, and their solution is to fully integrate gestures into the computing experience. It looks great. With a Magic Trackpad I can manipulate the UI in a number of helpful ways without even moving the cursor. The primitive multi-touch offered on Windows computers pales in comparison.

I think Windows 8 is intriguing, but they are trying to accomplish two things at once. Lion upgrades some things, but it doesn't re-invent the wheel. That suits me--I like OSX already.

Thunderbird
Jun 9, 2011, 12:42 PM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

Not sure if serious.

I'm not overly impressed with Lion either, but to say "there is nothing new" is pretty silly. There are lots of new features, big and small, certainly more than Snow Leopard had when it debuted.

Lion is a bargain at $30.

MindlessJD
Jun 9, 2011, 12:45 PM
God some of you Apple users are ***** pathetic and childlike. I feel so bad that people like to own the same brand as I do. You pay $300 for over priced hardware and complain and they release a $30 COMPLETE OS UPGRADE that took hundreds of thousands of programming and graphic design hours to put together.

Spoiled brats and worthless post.

Lion has a ton of things to offer. If you are unimpressed, name some features that you'd like to be put into Lion what would impress you.

Go.

Very well said.

I started using Macs back when Tiger was around because I preferred it to Windows. Considerably more. Leopard was a welcome improvement to a great OS. Snow Leopard was a great improvement to a great OS. See where I'm going? Lion is the next step and at a great price. I for one will certainly be buying Lion and will enjoy using it.

Windows is still Windows to me and I will stay a Mac user. :D

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 12:45 PM
Overall, I'm not very impressed with the features in Lion, however, since it is £20, there is no reason why not to upgrade. As long as I can do a clean install that is. If not, I'll be sticking to Snow Leopard.

wankey
Jun 9, 2011, 01:15 PM
There is simply too much fail and pathetic idiocracy crap in this thread.

The new animations and touch gestures are great. The complete revamp of the overall graphics in Lion are also great. What more do people want? A completely new experience? A completely new UI? Why break something that works well? Don't use the iPad interface if you don't want. Nobody is forcing it down your throat. Don't upgrade if you're not impressed. Stay with Snow Leopard.

The problem is with most people on this thread is that they are living in the era of spoiled children.

Instant satisfaction, no patience and little to no actual tolerance of what things really mean.

Things that take extremely talented programmers 8 hours a day to work on, 5-7 days a week to finish, and scoffed at and shove away. Who do you people think you are?

You understand that for the price of working 4 hours at McDonalds, you can get the most modern operating system that exists on the planet right? For the price of cutting someone's lawn, you can have a million lines of code in your finger tips.

It's ridiculous how people are so quick to justify whether they are impressed or not. For the price of a good dinner, you can own a modern operating system.

MindlessJD
Jun 9, 2011, 01:48 PM
There is simply too much fail and pathetic idiocracy crap in this thread.

The new animations and touch gestures are great. The complete revamp of the overall graphics in Lion are also great. What more do people want? A completely new experience? A completely new UI? Why break something that works well? Don't use the iPad interface if you don't want. Nobody is forcing it down your throat. Don't upgrade if you're not impressed. Stay with Snow Leopard.

The problem is with most people on this thread is that they are living in the era of spoiled children.

Instant satisfaction, no patience and little to no actual tolerance of what things really mean.

Things that take extremely talented programmers 8 hours a day to work on, 5-7 days a week to finish, and scoffed at and shove away. Who do you people think you are?

You understand that for the price of working 4 hours at McDonalds, you can get the most modern operating system that exists on the planet right? For the price of cutting someone's lawn, you can have a million lines of code in your finger tips.

It's ridiculous how people are so quick to justify whether they are impressed or not. For the price of a good dinner, you can own a modern operating system.

Well said again. People make it sound like Lion is stripping away features that are in Snow Leopard. It's not. It just has many new and better features with all the same stuff as Snow Leopard.

Like you said, tons and tons of coding and work has gone into this and for just $30 or £21 people are moaning.

To put it in perspective, I bought RapidWeaver from the Mac App Store for around £20. For roughly the same amount, I can have the most modern operating system available.

Outsider
Jun 9, 2011, 02:03 PM
AGREE WITH OP One Bazzillion %!

1. Apple WANTS $29 for this??? They should be paying ME!

2. What about all my System 6 apps!! I have dozens of apps that will be obsolete when Lion comes out!

3. I heard on cnet that when Lion comes out, it will seek out 68K and PPC apps on your computer and delete them, even if you NEVER LOADED it on your computer! WTF Apple!

4. Marketing fail! Unlike a real lion, it will not growl and chase down prey on the savannah! What the triple fist flying EFF, Apple!

5. No cure for cancer in Lion yet? How long have we been waiting for that one simple feature? WHO doesn't want that? How much longer do we have to wait???

That's it. I just through my iPhone and iPad out the window and am getting DROID'd up as soon as possible. As soon as I hit submit on this comment, this MacBook Pro is going in the wood chipper as well.

GOOD RIDDANCE, CRAPPLE!

:mad::mad::mad:

FroMann
Jun 9, 2011, 02:19 PM
^ Hahaha! Best post in the thread.

I don't see why people are looking at Lion to be a huge upgrade, its just a good upgrade for 2011 at a cheap price, Apple is probably more focused on iOS since it is making them more money compared to OSX.

MindlessJD
Jun 9, 2011, 02:23 PM
^ Hahaha! Best post in the thread.

I don't see why people are looking at Lion to be a huge upgrade, its just a good upgrade for 2011 at a cheap price, Apple is probably more focused on iOS since it is making them more money compared to OSX.

"A good upgrade for 2011" - I couldn't agree more. It is the start of making computers do some of the simple things for us that they ought to do - such as autosaving and cloud syncing and all that. It's a good step forward.

I sometimes wonder if people would moan less if each new update had a different UI. Then it would LOOK different and obviously better. IDK.

I think people forget that this is 10.7 technically it is only an update to 10.0. And I'll tell you what, it's a bloody good update and significantly so for the price point. I'd take an upgrade like this each year at this price point without question.

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:24 PM
I'm not all that impressed by Lion either. Its basically just an applications update, the low price reflects that so I'm not pissed.

HOWEVER,

The lack of TRIM for non-apple branded SSD drives and lack of Expose's spatial view between windows and application windows is ridiculous.

petvas
Jun 9, 2011, 02:33 PM
"A good upgrade for 2011" - I couldn't agree more. It is the start of making computers do some of the simple things for us that they ought to do - such as autosaving and cloud syncing and all that. It's a good step forward.

I sometimes wonder if people would moan less if each new update had a different UI. Then it would LOOK different and obviously better. IDK.

I think people forget that this is 10.7 technically it is only an update to 10.0. And I'll tell you what, it's a bloody good update and significantly so for the price point. I'd take an upgrade like this each year at this price point without question.

I have been using Lion for quite a while and I appreciate some of the features. I had to restore my Snow Leopard installation today because of some major issues with the mail.app, so now I am (temporarily) back to Snow Leopard. The feeling of using Snow Leopard after having used Lion is unexpectedly good. Don't get me wrong here. I am certainly getting Lion, because I believe in evolution of things in general and because of some features, but Snow Leopard is the last OS that reminds me of the PC era. I feel better using it, especially Expose and Spaces.
I am not a big fan of mission control, launchpad and resume. I understand why they had to come and I am sure that people with no computing background will find Lion much easier to use, but I am a power user and I want more than that. Having said that, when I install Lion again, I will disable Resume and try to make Mission Control work for me. Apple has listened to its beta testers who wanted a global switch for Resume, and the latest dev preview has it! Now Resume can be disabled...
The things I love in Lion are the new Safari, Mail and iCal. The new spotlight is also great, as are the multitouch gestures. I still prefer the old Finder compared to the new one though. Apart from the aforementioned features, I don't see many things that are better than Snow Leopard.

Another great thing about Lion is that the server components are an add on which I will certainly use.

I have mixed feelings about Lion: Some things I love, other things I hate. Maybe when Lion loses the beta feeling it currently has, I will like it more. In the meantime I will use Snow Leopard, because there won't be a way to update from Developer Preview 4 to the final version of Lion. People that don't know that are apparently no beta testers, or haven't read the release notes. (which I have :) )

ClearRPG
Jun 9, 2011, 02:35 PM
I do agree with you on some, except I hate the fact they are making the computers more simple and like phones. Yes great it is easy to use, but you lose features actually. Anyone know what I mean?

MindlessJD
Jun 9, 2011, 02:37 PM
I do agree with you on some, except I hate the fact they are making the computers more simple and like phones. Yes great it is easy to use, but you lose features actually. Anyone know what I mean?

Are the features actually being lost or just alternative and simpler ways to do things are becoming more prevalent?

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:39 PM
Are the features actually being lost or just alternative and simpler ways to do things are becoming more prevalent?

Expose is lost. Thats a huge con.

MindlessJD
Jun 9, 2011, 02:43 PM
Expose is lost. Thats a huge con.

I thought Mission Control was like Expose in SL with the spaces/full screen apps bit at the top. I'm guessing it's completely different then?

Truffy
Jun 9, 2011, 02:46 PM
John Dvorak sums up my critique of Microsoft's OS in This Week in Tech. Go listen to that. I'm not about to type it all out.
You don't have to type it all out, but a link and/or episode details would've been helpful. :rolleyes:

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 02:46 PM
I thought Mission Control was like Expose in SL with the spaces/full screen apps bit at the top. I'm guessing it's completely different then?

Its different, yes. Grouped items within applications and when viewing windows within an application, it displays them in a grid, rather than spatial organization.

Windows also overlap. Its really stupid.

petvas
Jun 9, 2011, 02:47 PM
I thought Mission Control was like Expose in SL with the spaces/full screen apps bit at the top. I'm guessing it's completely different then?

It works differently. It is similar but it changes the way Spaces are used. That might be for most people an advantage, but for me having used Spaces for a long time, I prefer the old way of doing things. I also don't like that there is no indication on the system bar which space I currently use. I filed a bug report and the answer was "works as designed"...
What I also miss is the ability to have an expose of all apps among spaces. With mission control I have to move from space to space in order to see the apps. There is also no preference pane where I can see in which space my apps are currently configured to start.

MindlessJD
Jun 9, 2011, 02:48 PM
Its different, yes. Grouped items within applications and when viewing windows within an application, it displays them in a grid, rather than spatial organization.

Windows also overlap. Its really stupid.

Ahh :/ Leave Apple some feedback!

Cougarcat
Jun 9, 2011, 02:52 PM
All Apple needs to do re: Expose is bring back the all windows expose (and assign it a new hotkey), while leaving Mission Control alone, just as they've done with the Application-Specific Exposé. That would quell the complaints. I think I would use Mission Control most of the time and it's superior in most cases, but for when you have a ton of windows open, the overlapped windows become a serious issue.

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 03:06 PM
2. What about all my System 6 apps!! I have dozens of apps that will be obsolete when Lion comes out!
What the hell are you on about? System 6 Apps have been obsolete for years. The classic environment hasn't been supported since 10.5.

There is simply too much fail and pathetic idiocracy crap in this thread....blahblahblah
Your posts are opinions. And people's opinions tend to differ. I see no real appeal in getting Lion, and if it wasn't so cheap, I'd probably not bother until I came across an App I wanted that needed it.

I hate to say it, but having seen a preview of Windows 8, I'm more excited about that. And I don't even use Windows.

However, these are my opinions. They differ to yours. Does not mean I'm posting 'pathetic idiocracy crap'. Please, have some tolerance for people and their opinions. And btw, 'idiocracy' is not a real word.

Cougarcat
Jun 9, 2011, 03:08 PM
[QUOTE=Outsider;12724116]2. What about all my System 6 apps!! I have dozens of apps that will be obsolete when Lion comes out!/QUOTE]

What the hell are you on about? System 6 Apps have been obsolete for years. The classic environment hasn't been supported since 10.5.

Sarcasm detector broken?

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 03:09 PM
Heres a youtube clip showing expose, but not with a lot of windows open though....

http://youtu.be/L_V0AqAG6bE

roadbloc
Jun 9, 2011, 03:13 PM
Sarcasm detector broken?

Ah... I get it now. :o
My bad.

petvas
Jun 9, 2011, 03:24 PM
There are also some other higly touted features which aren't that great, at least not for all people. Full screen mode is great if you have a small screen and want to concentrate in something, but for people with big monitors and resolutions, having Full screen mode is just ridiculous. I have an Apple Cinema Display 27" and I really tried using Safari and Mail and iCal in full screen mode. It was really too much...
So, if we examine the top ten Lion features, there isn't many things left that I look forward to be using in the future (apart from the better system apps).
Resume and autosave should be configurable per app.

rmbrown09
Jun 9, 2011, 03:39 PM
I'm just saying.
Samsung Series 9 = MacBook Air for the PC world.
Windows 8 looks awfully good from the preliminary showings.

I love the tiles in Windows Phone 7 and love that they are also bringing that tile scheme to the Xbox 360 dashboard.

After 8, all of their major software platforms will have a unifying and cool tile OS that works well in touch environments.

I am sad to know that everything Lion is has been realized and have to wait years more to hopefully get a drastic and game changing update like Windows 8 seems to be.

I wish they would have done that this time around.

petvas
Jun 9, 2011, 03:45 PM
I'm just saying.
Samsung Series 9 = MacBook Air for the PC world.
Windows 8 looks awfully good from the preliminary showings.

I love the tiles in Windows Phone 7 and love that they are also bringing that tile scheme to the Xbox 360 dashboard.

After 8, all of their major software platforms will have a unifying and cool tile OS that works well in touch environments.

I am sad to know that everything Lion is has been realized and have to wait years more to hopefully get a drastic and game changing update like Windows 8 seems to be.

I wish they would have done that this time around.

Windows 8 won't be exactly so revolutionary. At least wait and see what Microsoft announces. Maybe it will become a great OS, but I have my doubts.

Phil A.
Jun 9, 2011, 03:48 PM
There are also some other higly touted features which aren't that great, at least not for all people. Full screen mode is great if you have a small screen and want to concentrate in something, but for people with big monitors and resolutions, having Full screen mode is just ridiculous. I have an Apple Cinema Display 27" and I really tried using Safari and Mail and iCal in full screen mode. It was really too much...


I agree - I've got an 11" Macbook Air and full screen view makes perfect sense on there. However, I've also got an iMac with an additional screen attached and full screen view is something I'll probably never use on it (not least because the second screen is not even used in that view)




I'm just saying.
Samsung Series 9 = MacBook Air for the PC world.
Windows 8 looks awfully good from the preliminary showings.

I love the tiles in Windows Phone 7 and love that they are also bringing that tile scheme to the Xbox 360 dashboard.

After 8, all of their major software platforms will have a unifying and cool tile OS that works well in touch environments.

I am sad to know that everything Lion is has been realized and have to wait years more to hopefully get a drastic and game changing update like Windows 8 seems to be.

I wish they would have done that this time around.

Windows 8 won't be out until next year at the earliest, by which time Apple will be well on the way to the next OS X release. Personally, I hate the look of Windows 8 (but then again I hate the look of Windows phone 7). It's not just about being anti-microsoft as I quite like Windows 7, but something about WP7 and Windows 8 just grates for me.

42streetsdown
Jun 9, 2011, 03:51 PM
There's an option to keep the scrollbars visible.


And if you have a pre magic mouse mouse it does this automatically

slb
Jun 9, 2011, 04:16 PM
There is nothing new.

A falsehood right out of the gate.

danrees
Jun 10, 2011, 08:15 AM
There are also some other higly touted features which aren't that great, at least not for all people. Full screen mode is great if you have a small screen and want to concentrate in something, but for people with big monitors and resolutions, having Full screen mode is just ridiculous. I have an Apple Cinema Display 27" and I really tried using Safari and Mail and iCal in full screen mode. It was really too much...
So, if we examine the top ten Lion features, there isn't many things left that I look forward to be using in the future (apart from the better system apps).
Resume and autosave should be configurable per app.

I think on full screen mode we have to remember that 75% of the systems Apple sells are notebooks. Even on a 17" MBP I expect it would be useful.

aeaglex07
Jun 10, 2011, 08:50 AM
I agree with OP.
Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Look at Windows 8 videos, looks awesome. The tiling scheme (same implementation as on their new phones, which I am currently trying to get and sell my IP4) makes the OS feel fresh truly new.

Windows 8 I have a feeling is going to destroy OSX in terms of what changed from version to version this time around.

Very soon I won't be an iPhone user (been once since a week after the first one arrived) and if Windows 8 really nails it, a mac user either.

Windows 8 is competing with the iPad more than OS X

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 09:15 AM
Windows 8 is competing with the iPad more than OS X

Windows 8 will come in 2 versions desktop and touch screen.

nuckinfutz
Jun 10, 2011, 08:38 PM
Pro tip:

If your thesis statement is "Windows 8 is better, revolutionary or [insert adjective here]"

Try to add some supporting evidence or discovery so that your post actually makes sense.

For example:

"I think Windows 8 is better because I'm really digging the tile user interface which is similar to what they have on their Win based phones"

All too often you get these threads where a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions are tossed around. No one's asking for a manual or anything but rather a bit more info about how you came to your conclusion.

Do I think that Lion contains whopping new functionality? No I don't. I think at this point computing is moving from the computer as the central piece to more the network. We rely on the internet to communicate on a wide scale and Wifi and Ethernet to communicate on a local scale.

I can't think of many missing features that are forehead slappers.

Yamcha
Jun 10, 2011, 10:02 PM
Well I clearly see a lot of hate towards the OP, but I can totally understand what he posted, the features are not going to be relevant to everyone, so that is to be expected, personally the feature that I admire and use most is Launchpad, others that I also like would be mission control & resume, apart from that the rest for my needs are useless, I have not once found any use for the full screen apps, auto save or versions, and I think the last three only work on native apple applications..

So it's understandable, unless you use all Apple's native applications often then about half the features you cannot take advantage of...

Mackilroy
Jun 10, 2011, 10:10 PM
So it's understandable, unless you use all Apple's native applications often then about half the features you cannot take advantage of...
Both Chrome and Firefox already support full-screen usage.

Schmitty11
Jun 10, 2011, 10:22 PM
Agree the features are nothing big and mind blowing. There simple yet useful, which is what i'll say 98% of people want. Simplicity. I bought my MBP back in January, but have worked with Macs running Tiger, Leopard, and SL, and with each one came the little changes that have made one great operating system.

I look at Windows 8 and I looks like as big of a fail as Vista was, I don't want to remember those days. People say they want a Major over hall with the OS. IMO, we will see this with OSXI or whatever it shall be called, and that will be an interesting day, because I personally am not much for this iOS integration into OSX but its happening so it is what it is.

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 10:23 PM
Windows 8 on Desktop machine will look like WIn 7. The touch interface is for other devices.

Schmitty11
Jun 10, 2011, 10:25 PM
Windows 8 on Desktop machine will look like WIn 7. The touch interface is for other devices.

I noticed that myself

gr8tfly
Jun 10, 2011, 10:31 PM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

Though not huge, the new UI behaviors and guestures are bringing some of the polish and fluidity of iOS to OS-X. Even though they're not an earth shattering feature set, they are a welcome improvement to the user experience. Personally, I won't be using LaunchPad, but I can see the tie-in for users transisitioning from iOS. I'm reserving judgment on Mission Control, though I can agree that some form of integration between Spaces and Exposè was needed. There are other nice, though small improvements, that I also welcome.

At any rate, $30 is trivial for an OS upgrade.

Btw: even though there is no speech to text built-in, OS-X has had voice control of many parts of the system for years. You can, for instance, launch apps by name. You can also use voice to access any menu item. Voice Over is available to read many items on screen such as buttons, menus, and dialog box text.

Yumunum
Jun 10, 2011, 11:12 PM
To me, it's the smaller changes, the changes that actually help your day-to-day productivity, like:

Right click > New Folder with selected
When you drag items, it tells you how many you're dragging
Improved Quick-look
Versions that automatically backup all the time
Auto correct typing
Hold a letter down and it'll show the alts
Right click on a word and it'll show the dictionary without opening the app
Launchpad
Full screen preview
New & improved Mail App
Loads better Spotlight with previews
Year view in iCal
New Spaces (although I did like some of the old spaces features)
Low power network usage for files
Double tap to zoom in (like on iOS)
More Quicktime tools
Resume option when you restart your Mac
Per user screen sharing
iOS like scrollbars

They're some of the things I'm liking so far!

^perfect list.

There's nothing too MAJOR besides the iCloud syncing.

But that's not what will really matter, I think that it's the amazing amount of small things added in Lion that will truly make people more productive. I'd pay $100+ for Lion, I really would. It's the small things that make OS X better than Windows, and it's the small things that will make it even better.

chris2k5
Jun 10, 2011, 11:21 PM
I don't mind the small features that make an OS better but what kinda ticks me off is that Apple fixed things that didn't need fixing.

Expose was fine how it was. Mission Control is kind of a pain to use now. The new added gestures are more difficult than before as well. I find it difficult to launch "Launch Pad" with the 4 finger gesture they have too.

Apple needs get back to basics. No need to make it more complex.

YourHerojb
Jun 11, 2011, 01:12 AM
Dear OP:
I think the introduction of rubberband scrolling will change your mind <3

jeanlain
Jun 11, 2011, 03:08 AM
People complaining that Lion brings little probably never used OS X < 10.6.
Lion is a bigger update than 10.6 (for the same price), and is comparable to every other OS X paid update in terms of new features (except 10.1, which brought mostly bug fixes), but at a much lower price. :roll eyes:

wesleyh
Jun 11, 2011, 06:15 AM
Are there any gestures for the magic mouse?

C64
Jun 11, 2011, 06:41 AM
Hold a letter down and it'll show the alts

How does this work with repeating? When I hold a key I usually want it to keep adding that key, not show alternatives.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 09:59 AM
It's not worth it really.

It's worth more than the price of Leopard really. ;)

petvas
Jun 11, 2011, 10:02 AM
It's not worth it really.

It's worth more than the price of Leopard really. ;)

Actually for someone that doesn't have Snow Leopard, Lion costs 60$. Snow Leopard must be installed in order to be able to install Lion.

killerbee79
Jun 11, 2011, 01:30 PM
Well I clearly see a lot of hate towards the OP, but I can totally understand what he posted,

The reason I'm receiving so much hate for what I posted when I started this thread is because there are a lot of Apple fanboys out there that will rip anyone apart for saying anything bad about Apple. At least I've noticed that recently. It's like these fanboys think Apple can do no wrong or something.

Don't get me wrong, I like Apple products and have used them for years....but come on. With these fractional updates and taking things that already exist and making them "look" new just to get more money from you??

Apple is not impressing me anymore.....my first post says it all.

They just better keep supporting Snow Leopard which is what I have because not only will I not give them my money for the joke called "Lion", I really can't as I use Quicken 2007 extensively which requires Rosetta.

Thank god I got my new MacBook Pro a few weeks ago before this came out.

And before you start, no, the loss of Rosetta isn't fueling my hate towards Lion. Just the fact that there is no innovation in it what so ever. I don't care what Apple says, it is not anything revolutionary like they are trying to say through their PR.

emaja
Jun 11, 2011, 01:40 PM
...the fact that there is no innovation in it what so ever. I don't care what Apple says, it is not anything revolutionary like they are trying to say through their PR.

There is plenty of innovation as people have listed. If it doesn't seem to matter to you, then fine. To flatly say it is a waste of money and not an improvement is your opinion.

I think $30 is a pittance and really not worth complaining about.

...and for the love of all that is holy, get a newer version of Quicken already! It's 2011 :D

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 01:46 PM
The reason I'm receiving so much hate for what I posted when I started this thread is because there are a lot of Apple fanboys out there that will rip anyone apart for saying anything bad about Apple. At least I've noticed that recently. It's like these fanboys think Apple can do no wrong or something.

Dare if you say a word, I'm going to turn into a merciless butcher and go for the final kill, next friday. Mind you that.

:apple:

Don't get me wrong, I like Apple products and have used them for years....but come on.

First you try to be an ass****, then you try and explain that we shouldn't misunderstand?

With these fractional updates and taking things that already exist and making them "look" new just to get more money from you??

For some of you people, the look of the system is more important than any thing. If something doesn't change from outside, you believe that everything is the same.

Apple is not impressing me anymore.....my first post says it all.

You are surely free to go to Windows and ask for their help and use other devices and ecosystems.

They just better keep supporting Snow Leopard which is what I have because not only will I not give them my money for the joke called "Lion", I really can't as I use Quicken 2007 extensively which requires Rosetta.

Keep ignoring the posts in this thread, calling out our opinions for so called 'apple jerks'.

Thank god I got my new MacBook Pro a few weeks ago before this came out.
And before you start, no, the loss of Rosetta isn't fueling my hate towards Lion. Just the fact that there is no innovation in it what so ever. I don't care what Apple says, it is not anything revolutionary like they are trying to say through their PR.

I don't know what to say. You clearly haven't used the system yet and counting the so called flaws.

From AutoSave to Resume, everything is awesome and revolutionary. If full screen apps are not revolutionary to you, you are just no developer to understand the usefulness of this feature. Full screen apps aren't any easy to code and it takes a lot to actually understand the pixel count for UI size variations. You may be way smarter than all of us after all.

Clearly, the system is way easy to use in itself with good UI tweaks which overall improve the functionality and use of the system.

killerbee79
Jun 11, 2011, 02:25 PM
...and for the love of all that is holy, get a newer version of Quicken already! It's 2011 :D

Quicken versions after 2007 remove a lot of functionality I use, especially in tracking investments. Intuit completely ruined Quicken for Mac after the 2007 version. Most people that use Quicken will tell you that.

Soliber
Jun 11, 2011, 02:25 PM
Maybe I'm wrong in asking this, but why does every OS have to be so massively revolutionary?
I like it when Apple tries to make my day-to-day work more pleasant through all sorts of minor improvements. I was also a bit underwhelmed after the keynote, but then I asked myself what really needed changing in OS X that badly? Couldn't really think of anything outside of the things Lion addresses.
Windows 8 on the other hand does seem to be massively different, but one has to ask how much this is wise? I've seen a lot of Microsoft clientele that can't even get used to the dock-like taskbar in Windows 7. Imagine them being flabbergasted over having to switch between 2 types of UI interfaces, namely tiles and classic.
I'm very progressive minded, but such a thing would probably annoy me a fair bit. They have yet to show their vision on how they're going to marry their tiles (which I like from an aesthetic point of view mind you) with productivity apps like Office. Whatever the end product may be, I can see a lot of office clerks cursing on that one, wishing everything was just a bit less revolutionary...
At the end of the day we have to decide what we want out of our computers, a tool or a hobby. For me, it's a tool.

killerbee79
Jun 11, 2011, 02:30 PM
First you try to be an ass****, then you try and explain that we shouldn't misunderstand?

When was I trying to be an ass****??? For saying something bad about Apple??


You are surely free to go to Windows and ask for their help and use other devices and ecosystems.

I do use Windows, a lot actually right on my MBP..... I'd say I use Windows 40% of the time and Mac 60%. It's great having 2 OS's in one machine.

emaja
Jun 11, 2011, 02:38 PM
Quicken versions after 2007 remove a lot of functionality I use, especially in tracking investments. Intuit completely ruined Quicken for Mac after the 2007 version. Most people that use Quicken will tell you that.

I know...hence the :D

...but it kinda proves one of my previous points. This is another case where Apple is being asked to shoulder the responsibility for another company. Intuit messed up their program for many MANY users. Why it is up to Apple to make sure that a 5 year old program made by another company still works on their computers when they have long completed the transition to an entirely different system architecture?

This is Intuit's issue and not Apple's.

You say that you use Windows a lot on your Mac. Does Quicken for Windows offer the functionality that you want? Just asking since I do not use Quicken.

emaja
Jun 11, 2011, 02:43 PM
Why it is up to Apple to make sure that a 5 year old program made by another company still works on their computers...

...and yes, I made the same argument when people blamed Microsoft when older programs didn't work with Vista. It was not their problem that software publishers didn't update their programs to work with Vista.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 02:48 PM
When was I trying to be an ass****??? For saying something bad about Apple?? Like I said, Apple fanboys.........:rolleyes:


I do use Windows, a lot actually right on my MBP..... I'd say I use Windows 40% of the time and Mac 60%. It's great having 2 OS's in one machine.

Calling all the people in this thread 'apple fanboys' and much more in the quoted post, who don't seem to agree is being an ass and further an *******.

Good if you use windows. Go for maximum windows usage so that you don't regret Mac OS X at all.

Cheers

/thread

killerbee79
Jun 11, 2011, 02:58 PM
I know...hence the :D

Ah....gotcha ;)

...but it kinda proves one of my previous points. This is another case where Apple is being asked to shoulder the responsibility for another company. Intuit messed up their program for many MANY users. Why it is up to Apple to make sure that a 5 year old program made by another company still works on their computers when they have long completed the transition to an entirely different system architecture?

This is Intuit's issue and not Apple's.

You say that you use Windows a lot on your Mac. Does Quicken for Windows offer the functionality that you want? Just asking since I do not use Quicken.

I'm not going to switch to using Quicken in Windows even if it did keep the functionalities. I only go into Windows when I absolutely have too. Mainly for college, work. I prefer Mac over Windows any day.

killerbee79
Jun 11, 2011, 03:05 PM
Calling all the people in this thread 'apple fanboys' and much more in the quoted post, who don't seem to agree is being an ass and further an *******.

Good if you use windows. Go for maximum windows usage so that you don't regret Mac OS X at all.

Cheers

/thread

I never once stated "Everyone in this thread are Apple fanboys"... I was merely implying the odds were good that there were some in this thread as negative views of Apple on most forums draws lots of hate and attacks against the OP poster of said thread. I didn't see anything else ass****lyness in my posts...

I've obviously touched a nerve with you for the use of "Apple fanboy" which leads me to believe you've been labeled this before. Hmmmmmmmm

So hows this. YOU ARE AN APPLY FANBOY. Now I'm just an ass**** to you :p Good day unkind sir :D

cube
Jun 11, 2011, 03:12 PM
I think the only thing I'm interested in is the automatic consumer version control.

But first I want an Install DVD.

It doesn't help either that it doesn't have Rosetta.

LizKat
Jun 11, 2011, 03:16 PM
i wished it was 19.99

Price-driven wishing is certain to be met in the marketplace by SOMETHING OR OTHER. That's why it's hard to find high-quality dishtowels nowadays. At any given time for any given item, there's a price point below which it's not economically feasible to design, manufacture and deliver a market-worthy product. Yet if people persist in demanding such an item, the market may oblige in the only way it can, which is to reduce the quality of design, durability of materials and the level of workmanship. So... be careful what you wish for ;)

advil0
Jun 11, 2011, 05:41 PM
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that in the latest dev preview there is a global switch to disable resume, can someone tell me where that is?

*LTD*
Jun 11, 2011, 06:09 PM
I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....


One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.



Ones imagination is the limit with this.


You're all over the place. First you moan about it, then you concede there's only so far you can go with an OS, then you go into a bunch of AI stuff and other ideas that would be a total usability nightmare (especially at this stage.)

Yes, sometimes there's not a whole lot of new things you can do to an OS given the *usable* technology that's out there. Walking the line between "new" and "familiar" is difficult to do at the best of times. OS X Lion is not a complete ground-up rewrite, nor is it meant to be, nor should it be. It simplifies, it streamlines certain tasks, etc. That's why it's like $30 and not $130. You can't even buy a decent dinner for two for $30 these days. And if you can, it's gone. You ate it. At least with OS X you're getting not just an application but an entire OS that'll last you around two years and probably provide some lasting enjoyment.

Cougarcat
Jun 11, 2011, 06:12 PM
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that in the latest dev preview there is a global switch to disable resume, can someone tell me where that is?

general preferences

Fraaaa
Jun 11, 2011, 06:25 PM
There are several useful PowerPC applications that have never been ported nor rewritten for Intel processors. Many of those applications have no Intel equivalent. Rosetta is tiny, and takes up an inconsequential amount of space. Apple should have, at the very least, included it as an install option with Lion, just as they did with Snow Leopard.

Is not a big deal. Apple need to push further and you can still run Snow Leopard as main OS or on a partition.

Jagardn
Jun 11, 2011, 06:50 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

Here's a list of 250 new features, most of which have not been discussed much.

That list is pretty impressive to me for $29.99! Look how much people paid for Vista :D
I've come to realize that some people on this forum just like to cry about everything.:rolleyes:

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 11, 2011, 07:24 PM
I understand that, but how long does Apple need to carry these developers along? They have had plenty of time to update.

A really great one dimensional view! Congratulations!

We talk here about developers AND users! Btw, my favorite PowerPC-application is SpeedSearch X (http://www.smartcache.net/speedsearch/index.html).

labaom
Jun 11, 2011, 07:24 PM
That list is pretty impressive to me for $29.99! Look how much people paid for Vista :D
I've come to realize that some people on this forum just like to cry about everything.:rolleyes:

Just because there are alot of features and it is pretty cheap doesn't mean it is good or usable. I REFUSE to "pay" for an Operating System where I can't do what I was comfortable with in Snow Leopard. I probably won't even get it let alone pay for it. I am not trying to be a hater I love Macs. But Lion is just bad. If I wanted a grey operating system I would just go to Windows 98.

ratzzo
Jun 11, 2011, 07:27 PM
While Apple can't please everyone, at the very least they made it easy and possible for most people to upgrade if that's what they wanted, through their affordable price tag. After this point it's only up to you whether you upgrade or not. Snow Leopard is an amazing OS as it is, and if you are good with it, I recommend you don't upgrade.

I personally find many Lion features more annoying than they are useful, such as the scrollbars issue, and the fact that every time I open Word my previous documents opens all the time:mad:

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 11, 2011, 07:59 PM
Maybe I'm just a rich snob, but it is only $20.00 we're talking about. What does that buy you now days: A coffee, bagel and a newspaper.

A clear case of a miscalculation.

The clear point about Lion, rightly or wrongly, is it is all about trying to cloud intergrate, and if it worked well, then that's worth twenty lousy bucks!

While at the same time, most worldwide network connections do not have the capacity for cloud services. So you say cloud services which are with a high probability not available, make Lion a superior OS? And how much have you to pay (monthly) for your 3G or 4 G network connection? Not included the fact that no Mac (mobile or not) has a 3G/4G-modem (many users requested this feature over several years, in the EU, the US and many other countries). I use an external USB-device for 3G-network connections.

Yes you can comment on your thoughts on mac OS, but just saying that Windows is sooo much better ads no value.

Mac OS? You mean "OS X Lion"? And Btw. Windows is the best OS for many applications (Videoediting, Audioproduction and so on). If you need to decode WMV or other MPEG-formats, where do you find reference decoders on the Mac-platform? Flip4Mac? Buggy as hell! No reference at all. And Apples MPEG-2, MPEG-4 and H.264-decoders? Even ffmpeg is better (has a floating point IDCT, for example). Under Windows it is easy. This makes the production workflow much better in my view. The good thing is, that Macs support Windows XP-Windows 7 SP1, so i do not need to switch my machines, if i have serious work.

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 11, 2011, 08:12 PM
Is not a big deal.

It is. Just one example of inconsistencies in the Lion GUI:
If you activate the Launchpad (http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/launchpad.html), all icons appear colored (as normal) on a colored semi-transparent background (also colored). It would make more sense to make the background grey and to leave the icons colored. This would be much easier for most users.

...and you can still run Snow Leopard as main OS or on a partition.

Probably not on the newest models, which should appear soon.

labaom
Jun 11, 2011, 08:24 PM
It is. Just one example of inconsistencies in the Lion GUI:
If you activate the Launchpad (http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/launchpad.html), all icons appear colored (as normal) on a colored semi-transparent background (also colored). It would make more sense to make the background grey and to leave the icons colored. This would be much easier for most users.



Probably not on the newest models, which should appear soon.

I agree. But in theory, Snow Leopard should be supported as long as Lion is. This is because there are no internal groundbreaking features. It is the same OS as Snow Leopard. Just less useful, uglier, and inconsistent. But I am sure after at least three years we will have to upgrade.

emaja
Jun 11, 2011, 08:40 PM
A really great one dimensional view! Congratulations!

We talk here about developers AND users! Btw, my favorite PowerPC-application is SpeedSearch X (http://www.smartcache.net/speedsearch/index.html).

I really want to play Maelstrom that works on System 7. Who do I complain to?

I have found alternatives to PowerPC apps that I used to use that are often better than the PowerPC apps.

I am not saying it is not a problem. Some people are making it sound like it is Apple's problem and that they are being big meanies in dropping Rosetta. Apple has done a great job of making the transition from PPC to Intel go as smoothly as could have been expected. I think 5 years is long enough to allow developers and users to move on from PPC.

Mr. Retrofire
Jun 11, 2011, 09:21 PM
I really want to play Maelstrom that works on System 7. Who do I complain to?

You missed the topic.

I have found alternatives to PowerPC apps that I used to use that are often better than the PowerPC apps.

Good for you! Different people, different demands.

I am not saying it is not a problem. Some people are making it sound like it is Apple's problem and that they are being big meanies in dropping Rosetta.

Apple did choose the transition from PowerPC to Intel, not the users. Apples Mactel-sales mean nothing, if you consider:
1. Apple does no longer sell PowerPC-Macs, so the only possibility to use a Mac and PowerPC-apps is a Mactel-machine with SL (including Rosetta). It is always better to have a choice. Apple limits this choice. Why do they not offer a "Snow Leopard Mode", just like Microsoft does it for Windows 7 with a "free" Windows XP Mode (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx)? Is it really that difficult?
and
2. Many iOS-users do not own old PowerPC-app licenses (Photoshop CS1, for example), and have therefore no problem to buy Mactel-machines and Intel-only Lion.

emaja
Jun 12, 2011, 12:15 AM
You missed the topic.

No, you missed my way of pointing out that things change - and change often - in computing.

Here are your choices...


Upgrade to Lion and get the new features, but lose Rosetta while finding alternative programs that run on Intel based Macs.

Do not upgrade to Lion and stay on Snow Leopard or earlier and continue to use your PPC apps.


If you choose the second option you will have to consider that eventually you will need to buy a new computer. That computer will come with the latest version of OS X and you will be back in the same "my apps don't work with OS X 10.9 Honey Badger."

Change happens. You can either deal with it now or later, but you will have to face it eventually.

VPrime
Jun 12, 2011, 12:46 AM
I find that mac users are the most nostalgic and change opposing community ever.
I don't think I have ever seen a community fear change like this.. It isn't just lion it is EVERY new OS, every hardware change. Then 6 months later the whiners are running the next great thing as if there was never an issue.. Ready to complain about the next new thing.

Computers change RAPIDLY. Apple gave PLENTY of time for people to port their PPC programs to x86. If they software you use is not ported complain to the developer.
If apple was to keep support for old technologies for ever then no one would use their new APIs and frame works. Why port to Coca, if my software still works? There would be little to no inovation as developers would rather just save time and money to work with their existing code.

wankey
Jun 12, 2011, 03:22 AM
It's clear to me now how much the jobs Reality Distortion Field is.

Steve Jobs introduced Snow Leopard, an arguably useless and pointless release that only tidied up the code base and did pretty much nothing new in terms of usability, interface design or anything. Yet nobody complained.

This time, Steve wasn't on stage, and people aren't impressed, not interested. Considering the vast amount of new things coming out in Lion and the lack of things that came out in Snow Leopard (I mean one of their features was RESTORE FROM TRASH, that only works sporadically). The new mail has a vastly new and tidied up interface. The new mission control is great. The launchpad idea is a neat quick launcher which may or may not be used (you don't have to use it). The new gestures and safari are excellent additions. Resume is an amazing new way of doing things. How many times have I wish I didn't delete something and had to ctrl-z 50 times to get it back, copy it, then ctrl-shift-z to redo it back to the front and paste something I once wrote.

It's clear many people are pathetically hooked onto the reality distortion field and most of just mindless zombies and it's clear that Apples day's ahead will be hard when people like you lose that distortion field, even when Apple releases arguably good evolutionary stuff.

People complaining about having to buy a $30 dollar OS should seriously reconsider what they do in life. Considering they own an incredibly overpriced computer where a computer half the price can do what their computer can do, it's hilarious for these people to complain when Apple comes out with such a cheap OS.

It's also clear that Apple works on the illusion of price similar to super car makers. The more expensive things get, the more valuable they seem to be, even if the actual value is meaningless.

$30 bucks is 2 x $15 dollar lunches, or a $2 bagel, a $2 coffee every morning for a week.

It's laughable to think people are complaining about this.

Cougarcat
Jun 12, 2011, 03:30 AM
It's clear to me now how much the jobs Reality Distortion Field is.

Steve Jobs introduced Snow Leopard, an arguably useless and pointless release that only tidied up the code base and did pretty much nothing new in terms of usability, interface design or anything. Yet nobody complained.


Nobody complained?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=766420

And there are many more like it for every release. This is nothing new.

roadbloc
Jun 12, 2011, 04:48 AM
Steve Jobs introduced Snow Leopard, an arguably useless and pointless release that only tidied up the code base and did pretty much nothing new in terms of usability, interface design or anything. Yet nobody complained.

Um... yeah they did. The forums were filled with Snow Leopard complaints. And they did when Leopard was introduced. And Tiger. And Panther. And Jaguar. Hell, people even complained when OS X was first introduced, but rightly so, as Cheetah was a bug ridden cat.

I for one, wouldn't be getting Lion if it wasn't so cheap. But since it is, there is no reason not to.

G-Force
Jun 12, 2011, 06:01 AM
I must say, I'm also not that impressed by Lion. I use a normal mouse (and don't want to use Magic Mouse or Magic Trackpad) so I don't notice all the new gesture stuff. However, because the price is low and the interface had a cleanup, I will buy it. If it was $ 129 I would not buy it.

Fraaaa
Jun 12, 2011, 06:17 AM
Actually for someone that doesn't have Snow Leopard, Lion costs 60$. Snow Leopard must be installed in order to be able to install Lion.

And those on Tiger...better buy a new Mac :rolleyes:

Windows 8 won't be exactly so revolutionary. At least wait and see what Microsoft announces. Maybe it will become a great OS, but I have my doubts.

Windows 8 is a redesigned interface using Metro UI over Windows 7. And is ment for tablets.

So far Lion has much more than that.

seong
Jun 12, 2011, 06:33 AM
Again, people still complaining. For pete's sake, it's still a beta. Start complaining when the actual one is released and there is some kind of a major bug. If you don't like it, don't upgrade to Lion. No one is forcing you.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 06:35 AM
Again, people still complaining. For pete's sake, it's still a beta. Start complaining when the actual one is released and there is some kind of a major bug. If you don't like it, don't upgrade to Lion. No one is forcing you.

Application developers will force you, as it's always the case with Macs.

VPrime
Jun 12, 2011, 07:14 AM
Application developers will force you, as it's always the case with Macs.

Haha I find this funny. Application developers are not forcing you to do any thiing.
If you want new applications that take advantage of new technology you have tl uograde.
If not then you dont have to upgrade at all. The only thing forcing you to uograde is your desire to be up to date. Wether it be up to date operating system, up to date softawre, or up to date hardware.

Schtumple
Jun 12, 2011, 07:25 AM
I feel as though Lion is the most impressive OSX release since Tiger to be honest...

The new feature set is pretty awesome, all things that I've wanted to see implemented, I can't see why $30 isn't worth it, compare that to the cost of installing a fresh copy of Windows 7 Ultimate, it's peanuts...

But I guess there'll always be someone who complains about something, no matter how menial.

Fraaaa
Jun 12, 2011, 07:43 AM
I feel as though Lion is the most impressive OSX release since Tiger to be honest...

The new feature set is pretty awesome, all things that I've wanted to see implemented, I can't see why $30 isn't worth it, compare that to the cost of installing a fresh copy of Windows 7 Ultimate, it's peanuts...

But I guess there'll always be someone who complains about something, no matter how menial.

The only thing I don't understand is the need of the previous OS to install the new OS. Beside Leopard, to upgrade to Snow Leopard you need Leopard; To upgrade to Lion you need Snow Leopard, which needs Leopard. I just don't understand why is not a stand alone OS.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 07:45 AM
Haha I find this funny. Application developers are not forcing you to do any thiing.
If you want new applications that take advantage of new technology you have tl uograde.
If not then you dont have to upgrade at all. The only thing forcing you to uograde is your desire to be up to date. Wether it be up to date operating system, up to date softawre, or up to date hardware.

In other platforms, application updates will support old OS versions for a long time.

The Mac is notoriously bad in this respect.

petvas
Jun 12, 2011, 07:47 AM
In other platforms, application updates will support old OS versions for a long time.

The Mac is notoriously bad in this respect.

That isn't correct. There are many programs that don't run correctly under Windows XP.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 07:49 AM
That isn't correct. There are many programs that don't run correctly under Windows XP.

Who is talking about Windows, even if it is indeed better in this respect?

seong
Jun 12, 2011, 08:39 AM
I think (?) the tech geeks that we are, Windows XP is far more older than Tiger, right? XP was released in 2001, where as Tiger was released in 2005. Big difference there. I really don't see a point of supporting a 10 years old OS.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 08:59 AM
I think (?) the tech geeks that we are, Windows XP is far more older than Tiger, right? XP was released in 2001, where as Tiger was released in 2005. Big difference there. I really don't see a point of supporting a 10 years old OS.
For many Windows Vista wasn't a viable upgrade though, so they stuck with XP. Especially businesses. So since a lot of people were still using XP, even though Vista was already there, a lot of applications still supported XP. Even Microsoft kept supporting XP up till not too long ago. But now that W7 is a perfectly fine upgrade, most applications will drop their XP support as well.

As for OS X; after a while it's just not worth it anymore to support an older OS. Newer versions of applications want to make use of new technologies, and if they need to hold back because a few people are still using an older OS, that's just bad for everyone in the long run.

But I don't really see how this is a problem in the first place. If you have an older Mac with Tiger and you don't want to upgrade for whatever reason, just accept that you can't run the latest and greatest versions of all the applications. Earlier versions of all these apps that were made for Tiger don't suddenly stop working. So...

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 09:05 AM
You shouldn't run old versions of applications with bugs.

Developers do not need to hold on new features to support old OSes, they just need to fix the old branches.

maflynn
Jun 12, 2011, 09:14 AM
I feel as though Lion is the most impressive OSX release since Tiger to be honest...

The new feature set is pretty awesome, all things that I've wanted to see implemented, I can't see why $30 isn't worth it, compare that to the cost of installing a fresh copy of Windows 7 Ultimate, it's peanuts...

But I guess there'll always be someone who complains about something, no matter how menial.

While I agree with the price, its quite low, can you expound upon why you believe the new features are on par with the Tiger upgrade. I disagree as it appears that apple is dumbing down OSX and making it more iPad like. I'm interested in the specifics that you think cause it to be a major upgrade. I do think apple added/updated lots of little things, no really large major change.

The cost is mind blowing but its also highly restrictive - download only.

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 09:16 AM
cube, it's called progress, it's a good thing :-)
Having to support too many older OS's is a huge pain in the proverbial backside and actually stifles innovation, because you're stuck with the lowest common denominator. Just ask any software developer.
@maflynn: could you expand on the "Apple is dumbing down OS X" sentiment a bit please? I only see Apple making things more pleasant, not dumber...

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 09:19 AM
cube, it's called progress, it's a good thing :-)
Having to support too many older OS's is a huge pain in the proverbial backside and actually stifles innovation, because you're stuck with the lowest common denominator. Just ask any software developer.
@maflynn: could you expand on the "Apple is dumbing down OS X" sentiment a bit please? I only see Apple making things more pleasant, not dumber...

It's not progress when there's no install DVD and older hardware ceases to be supported.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 09:22 AM
It's not progress when there's no install DVD and older hardware ceases to be supported.
Tell us, for how long should older hardware be supported? Five years? Ten? 20? Should Lion still be able to run on an Apple 1 from 1976 in your opinion?

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 09:27 AM
Uhm, yeah it is, that's the very definition of progress, you drop the legacy stuff, you up the lowest common denominator.
It may sound harsh, but if you don't evolve, you get left behind.
I think it's a lot more faire this way, than the other way around, where a certain group of people sticks with their older hardware/software, all the while holding the rest of the group back.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 09:27 AM
Tell us, for how long should older hardware be supported? Five years? Ten? 20? Should Lion still be able to run on an Apple 1 from 1976 in your opinion?

I can tell you that G5 hardware should still be supported.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 09:30 AM
Uhm, yeah it is, that's the very definition of progress, you drop the legacy stuff, you up the lowest common denominator.
It may sound harsh, but if you don't evolve, you get left behind.
I think it's a lot more faire this way, than the other way around, where a certain group of people sticks with their older hardware/software, all the while holding the rest of the group back.

Nobody is holding anybody back. As long as there are enough legacy customers that want to pay for support, they should be accomodated.

roadbloc
Jun 12, 2011, 09:32 AM
I can tell you that G5 hardware should still be supported.

As should PPC Apps.

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 09:38 AM
Yes they are holding everyone back.
I see this type of stuff happening every day, where we as software developers cannot use the latest and greatest of APIs and such, just because they are not accessible on older systems.
It's all basic logistics really: if you want to keep everything manageable, you aim for a common code base, so you're stuck with the lowest common denominator of supported features and APIs.
You could of course set up a branch for the legacy customers, but then it begins. If a bug that resides in both the normal and the legacy branch needs fixing, you have double work on your hands, the same with other maintenance updates.
Since you have to commit more resources to keep all the branches in sync, you have less resources left for actual innovation, so again, legacy stifles innovation.
The mere act of laying down money does not fully compensate this; sometimes you have to think of the bigger picture.
If you want examples of how unfortunate legacy stuff can be, you have but to look at Microsoft.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 09:40 AM
I can tell you that G5 hardware should still be supported.
And for how long?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 12, 2011, 09:42 AM
And for how long?

Until Steve Jobs says so.

Blakeasd
Jun 12, 2011, 09:47 AM
Seems like the 250+ new features are not worth $30? I'd pay the regular $129 for Lion.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 09:47 AM
And for how long?

New OSes until they no longer perform acceptably, milestone old OSes security updates "for ever" (Leopard, Tiger).

ratzzo
Jun 12, 2011, 09:49 AM
I can tell you that G5 hardware should still be supported.

Well, Apple had to draw a line. Whether it's too soon or not, unfortunately it's up to them to decide. You can still just keep your PPC Mac with its PPC apps at the cost of running slower

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 09:54 AM
As should PPC Apps.

Precisely when the Intel switch was announced, I saw doom in the Xcode architecture build selection switch. This should have never been there, but always force the build for all architectures.

Kyahx
Jun 12, 2011, 09:54 AM
The only thing I don't understand is the need of the previous OS to install the new OS. Beside Leopard, to upgrade to Snow Leopard you need Leopard; To upgrade to Lion you need Snow Leopard, which needs Leopard. I just don't understand why is not a stand alone OS.

Snow Leopard technically required Leopard if you read the licensing agreement. It just wasn't enforced on the software side, and Lion actually doesn't either.

The only reason you "need" Snow Leopard is to get the App Store, however there is nothing stopping you from using a friend's Mac to purchase it and then creating your own installer media.

There is no reason to think you won't be able to burn your own installer and do a clean install with the final build, as this has been possible with ALL versions of the Developer Preview so far. You download the Installer via the App Store, show Package contents, find the InstallESD.dmg and use Disk Utility burn it to a DVD or restore to a partition on an external drive.

Granted I don't expect someone like my mother to figure those steps out -- but part of what you pay for when you do things "the right way" is support.

People need to understand that just because the recommended and supported path to Lion requires Snow Leopard, it's not the ONLY path.

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 09:58 AM
New OSes until they no longer perform acceptably, milestone old OSes security updates "for ever" (Leopard, Tiger).
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you seem out of touch with the economics of software development. What you're proposing, if I'm not mistaken, is supporting a computer which is almost 7 years old, consisting of a completely different processor architecture no less.
Surely you're jesting?
And what do you mean with "for ever"? Try selling a support contract to a bunch of product managers: "yeah, the products we're selling now, we're going to commit to our customers to support them forever". Best case scenario: you'll give them a good chuckle.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 10:01 AM
I really don't get this discussion.

Newer systems have better hardware and a newer OS with newer APIs that can do newer things, or things in a better way. So, newer versions of applications will only work with these newer systems.

So how and why does one expect them to work with older systems as well? If you don't want to upgrade your system that's fine, but just keep using the older versions of the software that run fine on these older systems.

Nobody is holding anybody back. As long as there are enough legacy customers that want to pay for support, they should be accomodated.
Yes, they are. Say you're a developer and you need to support all this older hardware. This means you spend a lot of time and money on developing and updating many different versions of an application. An old one, running on old hardware and only able to do certain things, and a new one, able to make use of all kinds of new APIs and what not.

For many developers this isn't an option, period. And what do you mean with "pay for support"? Do you really think people will suddenly start to pay a monthly fee for an application that's e.g. 5 years old, just so that the developer keeps updating it? Of course they're not. But without it, it's simply not economically viable to keep working on ancient software.

New OSes until they no longer perform acceptably, milestone old OSes security updates "for ever" (Leopard, Tiger).
Whether an OS is supported is up to the developer of a certain application. Read what I said about that above. For security updates the same applies. The developers of Apple can't keep spending all their time writing for older versions less and less people are using. It's just not worth it.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 10:04 AM
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you seem out of touch with the economics of software development. What you're proposing, if I'm not mistaken, is supporting a computer which is almost 7 years old, consisting of a completely different processor architecture no less.
Surely you're jesting?
And what do you mean with "for ever"? Try selling a support contract to a bunch of product managers: "yeah, the products we're selling now, we're going to commit to our customers to support them forever". Best case scenario: you'll give them a good chuckle.

The architecture change was a sudden Apple decision. As such, they should take better care of their legacy customers.

I wrote "for ever" in quotes meaning "for a long time", but I didn't write that precisely because when the Intel switch was announced, SJ said the PowerPC was going to be supported "for a long time".

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 10:09 AM
The architecture change was a sudden Apple decision. As such, they should take better care of their legacy customers.

I wrote "for ever" in quotes meaning "for a long time", but I didn't write that precisely because when the Intel switch was announced, SJ said the PowerPC was going to be supported "for a long time".

Tell us, what kind of important work are you still doing on this PowerPC Mac that requires you to run the latest software?

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 10:14 AM
Tell us, what kind of important work are you still doing on this PowerPC Mac that requires you to run the latest software?

I don't have a G5, other people do and they are not happy to be stuck with Leopard.

I have a G4 with Leopard and what I want are security updates for the OS. That's said, I'm not sure Snow Leopard would run worse, so maybe it should still be installable there.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 10:23 AM
I don't have a G5, other people do and they are not happy to be stuck with Leopard.

I have a G4 with Leopard and what I want are security updates for the OS. That's said, I'm not sure Snow Leopard would run worse, so maybe it should still be installable there.

I'm sure they are, and I'm sure you do. But do you really don't see how spending time and money on ongoing support for these older systems isn't going to work in the long run? Time and money better spent on new software and systems that the majority is using and are actually paying for? It's not like these people with their G5 and you with your G4 are paying Apple to keep updating Leopard. People buy new software, and thus they spend their time creating and updating this new software.

By now you've gotten everything out of the $129 you paid for Leopard. If you want more: upgrade. If you don't want to upgrade: deal with it.

ResPublica
Jun 12, 2011, 10:27 AM
The architecture change was a sudden Apple decision. As such, they should take better care of their legacy customers.

I wrote "for ever" in quotes meaning "for a long time", but I didn't write that precisely because when the Intel switch was announced, SJ said the PowerPC was going to be supported "for a long time".
Apple's support for PowerPC isn't fantastic, but they haven't entirely abandoned the architecture yet, like many companies already did. You can still use Safari 5, iTunes 10, iWork '09, iLife '09... and have a good and quite up-to-date experience. I find the lack of support for great software like Office 2011, Firefox 4, Google Chrome, Transmission, MS Messenger 8, Adobe Flash 10.3 a lot more problematic. And obviously the situation isn't ever going to improve...

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 10:33 AM
I'm sure they are, and I'm sure you do. But do you really don't see how spending time and money on ongoing support for these older systems isn't going to work in the long run? Time and money better spent on new software and systems that the majority is using and are actually paying for? It's not like these people with their G5 and you with your G4 are paying Apple to keep updating Leopard. People buy new software, and thus they spend their time creating and updating this new software.

By now you've gotten everything out of the $129 you paid for Leopard. If you want more: upgrade. If you don't want to upgrade: deal with it.

I have an MBP with Snow Leopard, which I don't want to "upgrade" to Lion unless there's an install DVD.

I don't want to switch off my Cube forever just because there would be no more security updates.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 10:38 AM
I have an MBP with Snow Leopard, which I don't want to "upgrade" to Lion unless there's an install DVD.Then you burn the installer you download to a DVD. Don't you get tired of yourself?

I don't want to switch off my Cube forever just because there would be no more security updates.And what kind of terrible security flaws are there that can't be patched on the OS your Cube is running? And what kind of things are you still doing with your cure that could be affected by this?

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 10:44 AM
Then you burn the installer you download to a DVD. Don't you get tired of yourself?

And what kind of terrible security flaws are there that can't be patched on the OS your Cube is running? And what kind of things are you still doing with your cure that could be affected by this?

It seems one cannot burn an installer anymore.

I said "would", if Apple stops supporting Leopard when Lion is out, according to their custom (unless they keep Leopard as a special case because it's the last PPC release).

iindigo
Jun 12, 2011, 11:11 AM
People need to stop expecting total operating system overhauls between versions. It's not realistic, especially once said operating system has matured; most of the necessary features are already in place, leaving only much more minor, less game-changing things to implement.

In other words, Apple is going to have a really hard time pushing out something as drastic as 10.1->10.2 or 10.3->10.4 with newer versions unless they skip two or three releases and take 4-6 years between releases...

Also, don't forget that while some may want radical changes of some sort, there is a much larger crowd of less technically literate people who would rather not have to relearn computer usage every time a new OS comes out.

jeanlain
Jun 12, 2011, 11:35 AM
People need to stop expecting total operating system overhauls between versions. It's not realistic, especially once said operating system has matured; most of the necessary features are already in place, leaving only much more minor, less game-changing things to implement.

In other words, Apple is going to have a really hard time pushing out something as drastic as 10.1->10.2 or 10.3->10.4 with newer versions unless they skip two or three releases and take 4-6 years between releases....
For me, 10.7 is just as significant as those previous releases. And you could have included 10.5 in the list (QuickLook is HUGE).
Resume and Versions in particular are tremendous features that will profoundly change the way we interact with computers.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 12:13 PM
I agree. A "huge" update doesn't necessarily mean a completely new way of doing things. Windows 8 might look completely different with their touch UI for touch devices, but who cares when the rest for desktops, which is still basically Windows 7 as far as we know at this point, is still the same and hasn't changed much.

I don't want to see a sudden complete overhaul of OS X where everything is different. Look at these boards. Everyone is already freaking out because Missing Control is a new kind of Exposé. Not that big of a change, as far as "complete overhauls" go, but still big enough to change people's work flows, and thus effecting them in an important way.

And the same can be said for all the little upgrades in Lion; it simple takes what's already there, and keeps improving it. That's the beautify of user interface design: there are so many little things you can change to make things easier, simpler and better.

Apple is constantly striving to do just that, and they're giving developers the means to do the same thing. A new shortcut for this, a new gesture for that, and a whole lot of new functionality to make everything more and more seamless. In the end the whole of Lion is greater than the sum of its parts, and all these "little" changes will have a huge, and I believe for the most part very positive, impact on how you use a computer.

*LTD*
Jun 12, 2011, 12:17 PM
I agree. A "huge" update doesn't necessarily mean a completely new way of doing things. Windows 8 might look completely different with their touch UI for touch devices, but who cares when the rest for desktops, which is still basically Windows 7 as far as we know at this point, is still the same and hasn't changed much.

I don't want to see a sudden complete overhaul of OS X where everything is different. Look at these boards. Everyone is already freaking out because Missing Control is a new kind of Exposé. Not that big of a change, as far as "complete overhauls" go, but still big enough to change people's work flows, and thus effecting them in an important way.

And the same can be said for all the little upgrades in Lion; it simple takes what's already there, and keeps improving it. That's the beautify of user interface design: there are so many little things you can change to make things easier, simpler and better.

Apple is constantly striving to do just that, and they're giving developers the means to do the same thing. A new shortcut for this, a new gesture for that, and a whole lot of new functionality to make everything more and more seamless. In the end the whole of Lion is greater than the sum of its parts, and all these "little" changes will have a huge, and I believe for the most part very positive, impact on how you use a computer.

Posts like OP's happen every time a new version of OS X is released. When Leopard was released they said they're sticking with Tiger. When SL was released they said they're stick with Leopard, etc. Meanwhile everyone migrates to the new OS anyway

Same thing all the time.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 12:47 PM
Posts like OP's happen every time a new version of OS X is released. When Leopard was released they said they're sticking with Tiger. When SL was released they said they're stick with Leopard, etc. Meanwhile everyone migrates to the new OS anyway

Same thing all the time.

Yup :)

I do think some people seriously don't see the bigger picture at first though. If you look at every separate update apart, it's very easy to dismiss it as "just a different way of doing x" or "just another gesture for doing y". And for some it's just hard to see how they can benefit from all these updates until they're actually using it.

emaja
Jun 12, 2011, 12:49 PM
I find the lack of support for great software like Office 2011, Firefox 4, Google Chrome, Transmission, MS Messenger 8, Adobe Flash 10.3 a lot more problematic.

I am asking this seriously since I do not know, but are these cases of Apple leaving those apps and the tools for developing them behind, or that the developers have dropped them from being able to run on older versions of OS X?

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 01:26 PM
The architecture change was a sudden Apple decision. As such, they should take better care of their legacy customers.
The architecture change was out of necessity and we should all thank our lucky stripes that they chose to go Intel. From what I read over the years, PPC wasn't going anywhere.
As far as I'm concerned, it's been almost 7 years, I'd say it's been long enough.
I'm sure any company invested in Macs could have conjured up the necessary funds to upgrade from somewhere during those 7 years. If you haven't concocted a migration plan after all this time, you haven't been on top of things.
As a company these days, you have to be nimble; if a move like Apple dropping support for PPC puts your company in a tough spot *after all this time*, I cannot help but wonder how your company reacts to new moves from their competition.
@emaja: no-one bothers anymore with PPC, that's the simple truth of it. It's simple economics, no-one sees any added value in still supporting PPC, be it Apple or other software manufacturers. I don't even think you can still write PPC code with the latest XCode, but I'm not sure.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 01:28 PM
The architecture change was out of necessity and we should all thank our lucky stripes that they chose to go Intel. From what I read over the years, PPC wasn't going anywhere.
As far as I'm concerned, it's been almost 7 years, I'd say it's been long enough.
I'm sure any company invested in Macs could have conjured up the necessary funds to upgrade from somewhere during those 7 years. If you haven't concocted a migration plan after all this time, you haven't been on top of things.
As a company these days, you have to be nimble; if a move like Apple dropping support for PPC puts your company in a tough spot *after all this time*, I cannot help but wonder how your company reacts to new moves from their competition.

What company? I'm talking about consumers who spent thousands on a PPC Mac.

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 01:36 PM
I think that could be properly described as "bad luck".
If you think Apple would support customers with 7 year old computers, you've got another thing coming... Frankly, I would start to question their judgement if they actually did so after Lion.
Let's drop the legacy and move forward shall we; after 7 years, those consumers will also have been able to find funds somewhere for a new Mac. If they chose not to for whatever reason, I feel for 'em, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
By the way, you could see it this way: because of their sacrifice, we can now buy Macs that only cost "thousands of dollars" in the more extreme cases. My first entry-level MacBook Pro was over 2000€. My second, mid-level MacBook Pro was 1600€. I like it when stuff becomes cheaper; such things would not have happened if they had stuck with PPC.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 01:38 PM
I think that could be properly described as "bad luck".
If you think Apple would support customers with 7 year old computers, you've got another thing coming... Frankly, I would start to question their judgement if they actually did so after Lion.
Let's drop the legacy and move forward shall we; after 7 years, those consumers will also have been able to find funds somewhere for a new Mac. If they chose not to for whatever reason, I feel for 'em, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

It's not about not having money for new Macs. It's about Macs being nice objects which are not crap after 3 years like PCs.

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 01:46 PM
Apple announced at WWDC 2005 that the transition would happen, so for argument's sake, we'll say 6 years. So not 3 years, but 6 years.
These things happen from time to time, one buys a product just before it becomes obsolete. Such matters are unfortunate, that's about all that can be said about it.

cube
Jun 12, 2011, 01:55 PM
Apple announced at WWDC 2005 that the transition would happen, so for argument's sake, we'll say 6 years. So not 3 years, but 6 years.
These things happen from time to time, one buys a product just before it becomes obsolete. Such matters are unfortunate, that's about all that can be said about it.

The G5 was discontinued in 2006. Snow Leopard was released in 2009. So Apple just took 3 years to make it obsolete.

C64
Jun 12, 2011, 01:55 PM
It's not about not having money for new Macs. It's about Macs being nice objects which are not crap after 3 years like PCs.

When Lion comes out, and doesn't run on an older Mac, it doesn't mean this older Mac suddenly stops working. Or that you can't do everything with it that you have been doing with it for years. The same goes for PCs. Many people still use 10 year old PCs running XP and they can do everything they need just fine. Windows Vista, Windows 7 and 10 years of newer hardware don't change that fact.

You say you're concerned that you don't get new security updates. But I'd like to know which specific security problems these might be. Usually these updates are for patching the current OS, not an older one where this problem might not even exist. Also, without talking about something specific, this whole "I don't want to be forced to turn off my Apple Cube forever because it doesn't get updates anymore" is rather pointless and shortsighted.

I'd imagine a Cube is still perfectly capable of browsing the web, emailing, office work and playing music. I don't see how Lion not supporting this system changes that in any way. And as far as I know there are no security holes in Leopard or even Tiger that'll blow up your Cube when you connect it to the internet.

Soliber
Jun 12, 2011, 03:45 PM
The G5 was discontinued in 2006. Snow Leopard was released in 2009. So Apple just took 3 years to make it obsolete.
Oh right, I forget to account for the foolhardy who bought PPC Macs after WWDC 2005, knowing full well that their thousands of dollars would eventually yield them an obsolete relic of IT history.
The first Intel iMac was launched in the beginning of 2006, the other product lines followed suit soon after. That's more than 5 years ago.
So basically, you want the entire Mac community to suffer, albeit indirectly, for people who could not wait a small half year?
Granted, some of those people may have needed to buy one in that timeframe just because their old one broke down, so I'll grant you that.
But you'll have to come to terms with reality and economics, if you feel justified in demanding extended legacy support, at no extra charge no less, for a group of people who were either unfortunate of foolhardy.
As the saying goes: take one for the team (and buy a new Mac).
Apple has already proved they're willing to compensate people for buying something which just became obsolete, like with certain MobileMe subscribers, or with those people who bought an iPhone just before Apple cut the prices. But not 5-6 years after the fact.

gumblecosby
Jun 13, 2011, 01:15 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Don't forget that Leopard still receives security updates. So technically, support is still ongoing for ppc users.

quasinormal
Jun 13, 2011, 01:31 AM
Surely the server features are worth $30, not that i have any idea what those features are. I probably won't upgrade till it gets to version 10.7.5. SL is still new to me.

petvas
Jun 13, 2011, 01:56 AM
Surely the server features are worth $30, not that i have any idea what those features are. I probably won't upgrade till it gets to version 10.7.5. SL is still new to me.

The Server will cost 49.99$ on top of Lion and you have to own a license of Snow Leopard Server in order to update.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/how-to-buy/

Schtumple
Jun 14, 2011, 10:10 AM
The only thing I don't understand is the need of the previous OS to install the new OS. Beside Leopard, to upgrade to Snow Leopard you need Leopard; To upgrade to Lion you need Snow Leopard, which needs Leopard. I just don't understand why is not a stand alone OS.

That's not necessarily true, you can install SL over older OSs, but you'd need to install as new and use Time Machine to install all your folders and settings back into the correct places.

dustinsc
Jun 14, 2011, 11:50 AM
I agree with OP.
Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Look at Windows 8 videos, looks awesome. The tiling scheme (same implementation as on their new phones, which I am currently trying to get and sell my IP4) makes the OS feel fresh truly new.

Windows 8 I have a feeling is going to destroy OSX in terms of what changed from version to version this time around.

Very soon I won't be an iPhone user (been once since a week after the first one arrived) and if Windows 8 really nails it, a mac user either.

Windows 8 isn't real yet. Lion is. Plus, all we've seen of Windows 8 is an iOS-like skin. Windows 8 will undoubtedly be better than Windows 7, but I just have a hunch it's not going to be the killer next-gen OS people are making it out to be.

nuckinfutz
Jun 14, 2011, 10:29 PM
Windows 8 isn't real yet. Lion is. Plus, all we've seen of Windows 8 is an iOS-like skin. Windows 8 will undoubtedly be better than Windows 7, but I just have a hunch it's not going to be the killer next-gen OS people are making it out to be.

Same people said Vista was going to destroy OS X ...then it became Windows 7 and now it's Windows 8.

LOL.

Apple is ahead of Microsoft in every area they "want" to be.

Fraaaa
Jun 17, 2011, 01:06 PM
Snow Leopard technically required Leopard if you read the licensing agreement. It just wasn't enforced on the software side, and Lion actually doesn't either.

The only reason you "need" Snow Leopard is to get the App Store, however there is nothing stopping you from using a friend's Mac to purchase it and then creating your own installer media.

There is no reason to think you won't be able to burn your own installer and do a clean install with the final build, as this has been possible with ALL versions of the Developer Preview so far. You download the Installer via the App Store, show Package contents, find the InstallESD.dmg and use Disk Utility burn it to a DVD or restore to a partition on an external drive.

Granted I don't expect someone like my mother to figure those steps out -- but part of what you pay for when you do things "the right way" is support.

People need to understand that just because the recommended and supported path to Lion requires Snow Leopard, it's not the ONLY path.

Sorry can you just explaining the enforce part better for me please?

SumoHamster
Jun 17, 2011, 01:18 PM
Sorry can you just explaining the enforce part better for me please?

It means even though Snow Leopard was sold as an upgrade, you could install it as a full version and it didn't check to see if Leopard was already installed.

ajvizzgamer101
Jun 17, 2011, 01:52 PM
Personally, I like Lion. The OS is overall cleaner and has small changes that just make it work overall better. With that said, 100+ dollars would have been to much though. I believe Apple priced it right.

BinaryTim
Jun 21, 2011, 02:43 AM
I agree with OP.
Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Actually, the fail is on the developers who can't get off their butts to update their fracking software to work on a modern OS without NEEDING Rosetta (They've had over 5 years now to do so). Go ahead and switch to Windows 8, but you'll have buy all new software (not just upgrade your current stuff)... if you think Microsoft is going to do a better job of supporting old software titles (their own or 3rd party), guess again. Even Windows 7 can't run some stuff that ran on XP. I'm sure Windows 8 will be even less backwards compatible.

But switch or stay, have fun with what ever you do get. :)

stevemr123
Jun 21, 2011, 03:01 AM
I've been using Lion since DP1 as my main OS on my iMac and Air as a developer. I had some hard times with the betas, but DP4 is very usable now. There are several minor improvements all over the OS which makes the overall Lion experience much better than Snow Leopard. Now whenever I use a SL machine, it just feels rough and unpolished compared to Lion. I like visible stuff like the new mail, ical, address book apps, but what I really appreciate are the under the hood changes like the full disk encryption for my Air or the new low power mode which enables to charge my iPhone with the iMac even when it is sleeping, and stuff like that. So IMHO it's a great upgrade for $30. I'd pay $30 for a seamless full disk encryption software only, but I get that and many more.

JimKirk
Jun 22, 2011, 12:11 AM
it has more bugs than dp4

roadbloc
Jun 22, 2011, 02:23 AM
Same people said Vista was going to destroy OS X ...then it became Windows 7 and now it's Windows 8.

I think you'll find that Windows has the majority market share. It already has destroyed OS X, it did it years before OS X was made.

Gamoe
Jun 22, 2011, 05:20 AM
Windows 8 isn't real yet. Lion is. Plus, all we've seen of Windows 8 is an iOS-like skin. Windows 8 will undoubtedly be better than Windows 7, but I just have a hunch it's not going to be the killer next-gen OS people are making it out to be.

Only thing I disagree here is the "undoubtedly" part. I remember having a conversation with a rather angry individual about Operating Systems. I was telling him about the Mac OS and he was very angrily telling me of how "Longhorn" was going to leave everything else in the dust. Comparing upcoming software with current or to a very-soon-to-be-released software is silly and plainly unfair.

Microsoft uses this all the time, though. They use the anticipation to build up expectations and keep people from going with the alternative. By the time the real product rolls around it isn't quite what everybody expected, and the competition probably has an even better product by then, but now everybody's been waiting all this time and already committed to the M$ product.

I will agree with the poster that Lion is not an earth-shattering in some respects and some people will not think it worth the upgrade. The anger against him for saying so is really ridiculous.

Apple touting full screen is a little hilarious. Pressing F11 will toggle full screen in Linux the way it always has. I mean, this is an ancient feature. Same goes for resizing from any corner. Reminds me of when Apple *finally* added a "Window" menu and a proportional scroll bar. I don't understand why they held out so long. iOS users have no idea how lucky they are to get copy and paste so soon.

That said, even though they are new only to the Mac, they are little features that are worthwhile, especially for $30. I have been wanting a system-wide full screen for some time now and things like versions, while not "new" ideas are indeed great features. An upgrade to Mail.app will be welcome. Software is not just about ideas. It is about actually taking the time to implement, test and debug them. And then there are features that are more novel as well. Airdrop reminds me a little of Sugar's ad-hoc networking visualization (http://www.sugarlabs.org/index.php?template=gallery&page=media_03), though the former is obviously more focused in function.

maflynn
Jun 22, 2011, 05:28 AM
Same people said Vista was going to destroy OS X ...then it became Windows 7 and now it's Windows 8.

Why would windows need to destroy OSX when they had the marketshare already? Windows 7 and 10.6 are on par with each other and using either one is a personal preference. To be fair the rumored win8 updates appear to be significant but are only rumored at this point, so its unfair to compare 10.7 where we have a released feature set and win8 where we don't

smallnshort247
Jun 22, 2011, 07:43 AM
After reading what everyone said, I'm kind of scared to voice my opinion. Anyway, I see both peoples points. After watching some demo videos of Windows 8, it does look pretty cool. However, I don't see me switching back to Windows. I'll most likely install a copy of it via Bootcamp on my Mac. As for the people saying Lion is nothing new.. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".. That's how I think of Mac OS X. It usually just gets the job done. Ever since I've been a "hardcore" Mac user, I've gone through two of their OS', Leopard and Snow Leopard. I was highly impressed with both. I like how Snow Leopard just works for me. So since Lion won't be too much different, that's fine by me. I'm happily looking forward to the new features in Lion though.

It does scare me a little that Mac OS X will be mixed with iOS a bit now, but I haven't even used Lion yet, so I think it's a bit too early to panic about what I or we don't like about it. On top of that, it's only 30 bucks! I can see if they were charging more, but I've blown $30 in less useful ways.

Bear
Jun 22, 2011, 08:33 AM
It does scare me a little that Mac OS X will be mixed with iOS a bit now, but I haven't even used Lion yet, so I think it's a bit too early to panic about what I or we don't like about it. On top of that, it's only 30 bucks! I can see if they were charging more, but I've blown $30 in less useful ways.Even before blowing the $30, go in to an Apple store and play with Lion when it's released. Make sure it won't break anything badly for you. Also, remember don't rush to upgrade as you don't know about every app that will break with Lion.

Biolizard
Jun 22, 2011, 08:54 AM
It does scare me a little that Mac OS X will be mixed with iOS a bit now, but I haven't even used Lion yet, so I think it's a bit too early to panic about what I or we don't like about it. On top of that, it's only 30 bucks! I can see if they were charging more, but I've blown $30 in less useful ways.

Indeed. £21 (the Lion price across the pond) is basically two small rounds of drinks in London. They're hardly breaking the bank with OS prices anymore, and why should they when they're making so much money from hardware and the App Stores?

haravikk
Jun 22, 2011, 10:22 AM
Windows 8 = looking expensive.
Corrected you there, as you of course realise that Windows sells for over $150 for a full copy or over $100 for an upgrade.

For $30 in Lion you get a slew of features, some of which are nearly worth the price on their own! All of the core usability apps (Finder, Mail, iCal, Safari, Address Book, more?) are new and improved, which is great, as I use these things all the time.

Auto-save and Versions, as well as Pause and Resume for apps are all features that apps can give us today, and yet by building them into the OS Apple is setting a new trend for more usable applications across the board. And this can only be a good thing; they may seem minor but it's this kind of forward thinking that means in a few years time, all of OS X will be better, not just the operating system. Even the improved fullscreen feature, which at first I thought "hang on, don't apps do fullscreen already?" sets a new precedent for richer applications that do more with your screen-space, and allows OS X to actually depart in a way from the old, permanent menu-bar that has served us so well, by hiding it till we need it, just like we've enjoyed with the Dock for so many years.

FileVault 2 I would pay $30 for on its own, in this age of security and paranoia over data theft, why wouldn't I want full-volume encryption that can be performed live on my startup drive? Add in the further improved sand-boxing and other security features and Lion is showing a keen desire to keep up to date on the security issues that threaten modern computer users.

Hell, even a bunch of the other things are big improvements; I hate having to use spaces and Exposé separately when they both perform a very similar task, so Mission Control might seem like a tiny improvement, but for something that I use all the time it is a massive improvement to the way I use my computer day-to-day. So are other seemingly innocuous things like scroll-bars that hide themselves; saving screen-space for what matters, i.e - the things I actually want to do with my computer.


So to be honest; I love the direction of Lion, sure it doesn't have any huge marketable features, it has lots of little ones. And this heap of little features is exactly what I need, an OS that lets me do what I want, and provides me, and the developers of the applications that I use, the tools with which to do it.

jaw04005
Jun 25, 2011, 12:32 AM
As operating systems age, we tend to get a little nostalgic about the previous changes that came with each update.

In reality, Mac OS X has always had fairly evolutionary OS releases in terms of user features. In fact, Apple has spent a tremendous amount of effort over the years putting marketing spin on developer-centric features like Core Image and Quartz Extreme (or my personal favorite the Pixlet codec --- who ever used that?) to beef up each update's feature list.

There have been a few major OS X releases (like 10.4 Tiger and 10.5 Leopard with the latter being the most ambitious OS X update to date), but the vast majority of OS X updates had three or four new user features and that's it (go back and read the feature list for Puma, Jaguar, Panther and Snow Leopard).

Lion is not the exception in that regard. I do think if Apple would have held off on the App Store and just released it for Lion, it would appear to be a bigger release.

There are a lot of things to like about Lion. However, it seems like a stop gap for the moment between iOS and OS X.

As for Windows 8, yes Microsoft is really trying to change the desktop GUI paradigm. However, by the time it's finally released (they're shooting for 2012 likely a summer RTM so OEMs can get it ready for the 2012 holiday season) Apple will probably have already started discussing 10.8.

Jagardn
Jun 25, 2011, 09:24 AM
Corrected you there, as you of course realise that Windows sells for over $150 for a full copy or over $100 for an upgrade.

it should be cheap, MS spent YEARS with Vista(Longhorn), and it was crap. Vista was expensive and not even remotely worth it. Then they magically came up with the greatest marketing scheme in history. Lets fix our Vista bugs change the look and feel so no one recognizes it as Vista and call it Windows 7. W7 was still expensive somehow, much more stable and user friendly than Vista but since they screwed everyone it should have been free.:rolleyes: Now they are slapping a screen with some pretty tiles on there with a few more features and it's the most groundbreaking thing since man discovered fire.:rolleyes:

I have been turned off my MS for years. I used their software since Windows 3.1. Every few releases are a flop like Windows ME, and Vista. I switched to Linux in about 2004 and Mac OSX about a year and a half ago. I have been happy with pretty much everything so far with OSX, and to me Lion looks like it's going to be a winner.:D

Tmelon
Jun 25, 2011, 11:13 AM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

I personally like Lion quite a bit more than Snow Leopard. No one is forcing you to upgrade, but honestly, for $30 it would be ignorant not to.

rmbrown09
Jun 25, 2011, 01:41 PM
I personally like Lion quite a bit more than Snow Leopard. No one is forcing you to upgrade, but honestly, for $30 it would be ignorant not to.

Losing Rosetta.. that'll stop a lot of people. And piss off the rest that don't know what Rosetta is or why their programs won't run.

Lion should have a huge warning label on the front.

FroMann
Jun 25, 2011, 03:23 PM
What important apps use Rosetta? I recently switched to a Mac and have downloaded a few other apps like VLC, Gimp, Chrome, Steam, Dropbox, Caffeine, iMousefixit, OnyX, AppCleaner, etc. None of which require Rosetta.

I think the only piece of software I was going to use that requires Rosetta was Unreal Tournament 2004, which I can play on Windows.

Soliber
Jun 25, 2011, 03:35 PM
Losing Rosetta.. that'll stop a lot of people. And piss off the rest that don't know what Rosetta is or why their programs won't run.

Lion should have a huge warning label on the front.
Which should read:
"Caution: may enable the industry to move forward by ditching ye old legacy crap. Shake your fist and frown if this upsets you."

Cougarcat
Jun 25, 2011, 03:35 PM
What important apps use Rosetta? I recently switched to a Mac and have downloaded a few other apps like VLC, Gimp, Chrome, Steam, Dropbox, Caffeine, iMousefixit, OnyX, AppCleaner, etc. None of which require Rosetta.

I think the only piece of software I was going to use that requires Rosetta was Unreal Tournament 2004, which I can play on Windows.

If you recently switched, that would explain it. Apps written 2005 and earlier need Rosetta unless they have been updated with intel support. Games are rarely maintained long after release, so that's one of the biggest losses. Quicken, Freehand, and older Adobe CS releases are also important to many people.

Mackilroy
Jun 25, 2011, 03:36 PM
Losing Rosetta.. that'll stop a lot of people. And piss off the rest that don't know what Rosetta is or why their programs won't run.

Lion should have a huge warning label on the front.
How many people have switched to Macs since 2005 though? I would daresay a larger number than people who have been long-term Mac users and have pre-Intel software that needs Rosetta. And even then not every one of the latter has an issue – I've been using Macs from 1995 but I haven't touched Rosetta since perhaps 2009.

I think if you really need Rosetta, you should either stick with Snow Leopard, find alternative software that doesn't require it, or petition Apple to make it a part of Lion (though the last is unlikely to work).

wesleyh
Jun 25, 2011, 05:23 PM
There's a lot of printer & scanner software (epson) that is rosetta.

Anyone know if epson is actively building a new version of this for lion?

roadbloc
Jun 25, 2011, 05:26 PM
it should be cheap, MS spent YEARS with Vista(Longhorn), and it was crap. Vista was expensive and not even remotely worth it.

The first OS X was exactly the same. Always the same when you're pretty much starting from scratch with an OS.

calcvita
Jun 25, 2011, 06:49 PM
well, here are my thoughts on lion….

i can understand why apple did what they did. there are far more ios users out there than os x users and by bringing some of ios'eses features over to mac os x they make a possible transition of a windows user with an i-device a much more pleasant experience. as long as i can turn some of that ios features off, fine by me :)

but, i expected to see an improved finder. it would be really nice to have tabbed finder windows. another feature i miss and would come really handy especially on small screens are things like aero snap or window previous. i know there are 3rd party apps that do things like that, but it would be nice if they were integrated into the os.
one other thing i miss is the customization of how lion looks. don't get me wrong, i think the aqua interface looks pretty nice, but after seeing for three years the same gray windows and blue folders, i got a bit tired of that. it would be nice if apple gave us 3-4 themes to choose from or, even better, give us a theme manager and let the people create some nice themes, which you can then download and apply. there are many creative people working on the mac platform and i'm pretty sure some really good things would come out of this.

these are just small things, which would have a huge impact………at least i think they would.

Azadre
Jun 25, 2011, 08:32 PM
In my opinion, Snow Leopard wasn't a monumental release, and it is appearing Lion won't be either. The best features Apple have added in the past 5 years include Spotlight, Time Machine, and implementing multitouch gestures. Everything else has had no obvious impact on my daily usage. Then again, desktop OSes are getting mature and the industry will move away from the keyboard and mouse paradigm to a touch based platform.

NJRonbo
Jun 25, 2011, 08:44 PM
I am in here 8 pages too late but here
are my thoughts after having LION installed
on my system for the past month.....

It's the most enjoyable OS I have ever used.

First and foremost, I think those that will mostly
benefit from LION are trackpad owners -- specifically
MagicTrackpad. LION is all about gestures. It's
really amazing how much finger swiping improves the
overall OS experience. You swipe through browser
windows and zoom in and out of open windows across
your desktop. It's just amazing.

Those with a MagicMouse will be able to use most of
the gesutres, but I think the MagicTrackpad takes it
to a whole new level.

Secondly, the animations are spectacular. You swipe
through browser pages as if you were moving from one
picture to another. Scrolling is greatly enhanced, and
there's a "Rubber Band" effect that makes the motion more
realistic.

My favorite enhancement is Apple Mail. This was a much
needed overhaul that Apple ignored for years. It's going
to put the WIDEMAIL plug-in and SPARROW out of business.
The mail now looks exactly as it does on iOS. It's rather
astonishing to see how nicely threaded replies are handled
whereas each reply is properly numbered and all the text
junk is removed, leaving only the important parts of the
message. It's hard to explain, but those who have seen
the keynote now get it.

Since I had been using a program called WINDOWSHADE X
for the past few years, I was rather pleased that LION now
enables you to have several windows open at once and you
can immediately get to whatever is behind another window
simply by using a 3-finger gesture downwards to zoom out
and give an "ariel view" on your desktop and then zoom back
in on any window that you want.

Those of you who think this is just a minimal upgrade to
Snow Leopard have got it all wrong. Apple has done an
excellent job of giving us an operating system that works
very close to iOS 5. At first, I did not like the concept of
having a desktop OS that looked like a mobile one -- but
now seeing that I can arrange my application icons into
folders just like I do on the iPhone, I am really pleased.
After all, iOS is a very successful and popular platform and
I can totally understand Apple's attempt to have all their
devices work as one.

Really, I think LION is pretty incredible. Again, I think
anyone with a Macbook or MagicTrackpad is going to see
the immediate benefits.

I can't wait for the final release, and I wish Apple would
throw out a date for us to salvate over.

Gamoe
Jun 26, 2011, 05:48 AM
one other thing i miss is the customization of how lion looks. don't get me wrong, i think the aqua interface looks pretty nice, but after seeing for three years the same gray windows and blue folders, i got a bit tired of that. it would be nice if apple gave us 3-4 themes to choose from or, even better, give us a theme manager and let the people create some nice themes, which you can then download and apply.

How new are you to the Mac? Apple never gives you a choice, and I think the trend is getting stronger. I wish the same thing you do, but it's not going to happen, because unnecessary choice appears to be against Apple's ethos. Not that I agree. But that's why we power users have the Terminal, ThinkerTool (http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html) and third party apps.

BTW, I meant no condescension or insult. I am merely expressing my own frustration with Apple's choice of excluding choices for the user.

That aside, I am encouraged by your Lion report and am really looking forward for the upgrade.

calcvita
Jun 26, 2011, 06:45 AM
How new are you to the Mac? Apple never gives you a choice, and I think the trend is getting stronger. I wish the same thing you do, but it's not going to happen, because unnecessary choice appears to be against Apple's ethos. Not that I agree. But that's why we power users have the Terminal, ThinkerTool (http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html) and third party apps.

BTW, I meant no condescension or insult. I am merely expressing my own frustration with Apple's choice of excluding choices for the user.

That aside, I am encouraged by your Lion report and am really looking forward for the upgrade.

i'm a mac user for almost three years. i know there was a tool for customizing the appearance of leopard (apply themes and so on), but that tool stopped working on snow leopard. i can't understand why apple makes it so hard to customize the os, i mean even microsoft lets you do that! coming from linux, this feature is something i really miss.

as you pointed out, the terminal and tools like tinkertool or onyx are always good to have around ;)

MrRoyksopp
Jun 26, 2011, 07:28 AM
1. Watch keynote again.
2. There's about 250 new features, you mentioned like 2 features, and those were the most similair to SL that you possibly could find.
3. 30$ For an all new operating system? I thing that it's a pretty good deal.

GGJstudios
Jun 26, 2011, 05:14 PM
AppCleaner
App removal software doesn't do a thorough job. Read this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12527023&postcount=6).

SumoHamster
Jun 27, 2011, 08:26 AM
i know there was a tool for customizing the appearance of leopard (apply themes and so on), but that tool stopped working on snow leopard.

I think the tool you're thinking of is/was Shapeshifter (http://unsanity.com/haxies/shapeshifter). I liked it a lot.

Cristian
Jun 27, 2011, 08:37 AM
The title of this thread made me LOL...

BryanBensing
Jun 27, 2011, 08:37 AM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

Here's a list of 250 new features, most of which have not been discussed much.

- New Desktop Pictures
- Full screen Chess

W00t! Best 2 NEW features ever! Worth the $29.99 upgrade price :rolleyes:

-Minsc-
Jun 27, 2011, 03:09 PM
Read the first couple pages then got bored.

My debate is whether to get the Snow Leopard and Lion upgrades for $60 or the Mac Box Set for $130. I have no use at all for iLife though iWork may be useful. Even then I can get along with out it. The two upgrades are looking more and more like the best deal.


As for the $30 for Lion, try to get a Windows upgrade for that cheap.

roadbloc
Jun 27, 2011, 03:23 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/features.html

Here's a list of 250 new features, most of which have not been discussed much.

Personally, I'd say the majority of them are tweaks rather than new features. If Lion was £120, I doubt I'd upgrade. However, at £20.99, I simply cannot find a reason why not to. The actual new features look good, certainly looking forward to full-screen apps the most.

vvswarup
Jun 27, 2011, 10:15 PM
I agree with OP.
Lion brings a handful of new features, none of witch are groundbreaking or incredibly important.
It also drops Rosetta, fail.

Look at Windows 8 videos, looks awesome. The tiling scheme (same implementation as on their new phones, which I am currently trying to get and sell my IP4) makes the OS feel fresh truly new.

Windows 8 I have a feeling is going to destroy OSX in terms of what changed from version to version this time around.

Very soon I won't be an iPhone user (been once since a week after the first one arrived) and if Windows 8 really nails it, a mac user either.

Just out of curiosity, what is different about Windows 8 other than the Metro Tile UI, which makes it more touch-friendly? The UI under the tile UI is eerily similar to Windows 7. What's different about that?

Windows 8 may destroy OSX but OSX will have a year's head start. At this point, Windows 8 has yet to be demoed in person on an actual device and no release date has been set-in other words, vaporware.

superstrikertwo
Jun 28, 2011, 02:04 AM
Just out of curiosity, what is different about Windows 8 other than the Metro Tile UI, which makes it more touch-friendly? The UI under the tile UI is eerily similar to Windows 7. What's different about that?

Windows 8 may destroy OSX but OSX will have a year's head start. At this point, Windows 8 has yet to be demoed in person on an actual device and no release date has been set-in other words, vaporware.

... How is Windows 8 vaporware? It is coming out. MS is aiming for a 2012 release. And it has been demoed in part.

No one knows what the difference between 7 and 8 will be we'll find out when MS formally shows it off next year.

DJJAZZYJET
Jun 28, 2011, 03:59 AM
Its not meant to be a 'major upgrade', osx is 10.6.8, ad a 00.0.2 and u get lion, just that it costs £20.99 or $30. I think its a worthy upgrade, they have added over 250 features or something... I dont have to pay for it (got my mac after the keynote) but even if i had to pay for it i would.

iMJustAGuy
Jun 28, 2011, 05:43 AM
It's definitely "worth it" because it's only $29 which is an extraordinary price. It is however, just a small upgrade. Before we knew anything, I thought it would be much bigger, but it's great nonetheless.

dethmaShine
Jun 28, 2011, 06:26 AM
Just out of curiosity, what is different about Windows 8 other than the Metro Tile UI, which makes it more touch-friendly? The UI under the tile UI is eerily similar to Windows 7. What's different about that?

Windows 8 may destroy OSX but OSX will have a year's head start. At this point, Windows 8 has yet to be demoed in person on an actual device and no release date has been set-in other words, vaporware.

Just look at his post history. He doesn't like iOS. He doesn't like OS X.

In all his previous posts, you can clearly see that he believes that Windows is more productive and innovative than OS X.

I seriously don't know why people like those come to these forums to address these things. If they are so not bothered about OS X, just stay in the news section or whatever. To him, the tile interface is an innovation but is not able to see the wonderful features like Resume, Gestures, etc in Lion.

I understand his intentions and have crossed his opinions in various other threads. In a nut shell it is:

1. Windows is more productive than OS X. It is definitely more innovative.
2. iOS is no innovation as the silly notifications were copied from Android. From the entire iOS keynote, he was able to pick this up and starts blabbering on any topic. Doesn't realise that the notifications are just a drop down menu implemented in Windows Mobile or even SBSettings or clearly the Mac OS X status bar.

There's too much one can argue here. Windows 8 might be a success; but seriously, MS has just stopped innovating with Windows operating system. It's the stale underlying architecture since XP. Obviously it has been beautified or one would say glorified but that's about it. Loving OS X with new features in every release. The only thing that bothers me is the Expose which is gone. I hope it comes back as there is no reason why Apple cannot implement it in Mission Control.

Too much fanboy **** as mrbrown claims so I'll troll at some other place.

NJRonbo
Jun 28, 2011, 06:30 AM
I don't know why Windows lovers participate
here either. If you are throwing stones at OS X
and praising Windows in a MAC forum you are
simply trolling.

From my personal usage, I think LION offers
users a far more enjoyable computing experience
than Windows ever could.

The poster above is quite correct: Microsoft stopped
being innovative with its operating system long ago
while Apple has been slowly changing and enhancing
the way people interact with their PCs.

tkermit
Jun 28, 2011, 06:39 AM
Its not meant to be a 'major upgrade', osx is 10.6.8, ad a 00.0.2 and u get lion, .

eh...that isn't really how it works. Lion isn't 10.6.10. :rolleyes:

paulsalter
Jun 28, 2011, 06:50 AM
There's too much one can argue here. Windows 8 might be a success; but seriously, MS has just stopped innovating with Windows operating system. It's the stale underlying architecture since XP. Obviously it has been beautified or one would say glorified but that's about it. Loving OS X with new features in every release. The only thing that bothers me is the Expose which is gone. I hope it comes back as there is no reason why Apple cannot implement it in Mission Control.



Can you expand about why windows as you mention above is different to OS X

Not really used anything later than XP, been OS X for last 4 to 5 years

you say windows is the same but with a nicer GUI
OS X is the same unix style OS underneath with a slightly changed GUI on each release

dethmaShine
Jun 28, 2011, 07:32 AM
I don't know why Windows lovers participate
here either. If you are throwing stones at OS X
and praising Windows in a MAC forum you are
simply trolling.

From my personal usage, I think LION offers
users a far more enjoyable computing experience
than Windows ever could.

The poster above is quite correct: Microsoft stopped
being innovative with its operating system long ago
while Apple has been slowly changing and enhancing
the way people interact with their PCs.

People have all the right to come here and say that Windows 8 is better than OS X LionPuppy. Point is, they have nothing in return to explain: 'Why' or 'How'.
There's an argument but that argument is void of all reasoning and facts.

Can you expand about why windows as you mention above is different to OS X

Not really used anything later than XP, been OS X for last 4 to 5 years

you say windows is the same but with a nicer GUI
OS X is the same unix style OS underneath with a slightly changed GUI on each release

OS X has changed drastically over the years. If you look at the GUI, the basic interpretation of window and screen still remains intact but each and every control has changed during the existence of OS X.
Point is it hasn't been over down. I use windows 7 everyday but honestly I hate the looks of it. It really bothers me. I have dumb it down to absolutely zero gloss so I can work without being bothered. Windows7 is glossified to a very large extent. There are some animations to enhance user experience but that's about it. The user experience is quite poor when using Windows7 comparing it to OS X. Animations and functionality of those animations matter a lot and adds to the user experience. Windows lacks them altogether.

Look at different OS X elements. The scroll bars, option control, check boxes, slider, etc. all have evolved since the beginning. They have never been over done. They have just been bettered keeping things in well defined limits. User facing features like MissionControl/Expose/Spaces/dashboard, a good user interface and tonnes of other features have always been missing from windows.

That's the reason I call it stale. There's very less that has changed. And the changes are just glorified to make them intense and provide a sense of feeling that the OS has been improved majorly. It's not.

paulsalter
Jun 28, 2011, 08:03 AM
People have all the right to come here and say that Windows 8 is better than OS X LionPuppy. Point is, they have nothing in return to explain: 'Why' or 'How'.
There's an argument but that argument is void of all reasoning and facts.



OS X has changed drastically over the years. If you look at the GUI, the basic interpretation of window and screen still remains intact but each and every control has changed during the existence of OS X.
Point is it hasn't been over down. I use windows 7 everyday but honestly I hate the looks of it. It really bothers me. I have dumb it down to absolutely zero gloss so I can work without being bothered. Windows7 is glossified to a very large extent. There are some animations to enhance user experience but that's about it. The user experience is quite poor when using Windows7 comparing it to OS X. Animations and functionality of those animations matter a lot and adds to the user experience. Windows lacks them altogether.

Look at different OS X elements. The scroll bars, option control, check boxes, slider, etc. all have evolved since the beginning. They have never been over done. They have just been bettered keeping things in well defined limits. User facing features like MissionControl/Expose/Spaces/dashboard, a good user interface and tonnes of other features have always been missing from windows.

That's the reason I call it stale. There's very less that has changed. And the changes are just glorified to make them intense and provide a sense of feeling that the OS has been improved majorly. It's not.

Fair enough, it's all personal preference how you like the look of it, thats why there are mostly options to change how things look

I personally hate many of the new looks in Lion, and will be turning these off when I get it

iOS scroll bars - no thanks
No Dock Indicator for running apps - no thanks
Launchpad - no thanks
Dashboard - never liked - so again no thanks
lack of colour in os - have no choice - but would put colour back if i could
versions - no thanks
auto save - the way it works - no thanks

cant say I ever found features missing from windows when i have used it

roadbloc
Jun 28, 2011, 08:06 AM
The poster above is quite correct: Microsoft stopped
being innovative with its operating system long ago
while Apple has been slowly changing and enhancing
the way people interact with their PCs.
I guess that is why Windows 7 had a lot of innovative new features such as Aero Snap and Peek and Snow Leopard had no new features.

Swings and roundabouts. And all down to peoples opinions at the end of the day. Some people will be excited for the new features that Lion will bring. Other people, such as myself, are more intrigued about what Windows 8 will bring and think Lion as a bit of a meh.

Don't get me wrong, Lion has some good features (like Fullscreen, Autosave and Resume), but some rather terrible ones as well (like Launchpad and Mission Control). £20 for it makes it a 'why not?' purchase, however, if it was £120, I don't think I'd be purchasing it.

maflynn
Jun 28, 2011, 08:13 AM
I don't know why Windows lovers participate
here either. If you are throwing stones at OS X
and praising Windows in a MAC forum you are
simply trolling.
So I'm prevented from issuing my opinion that windows is not a bad operating system because I'm on a mac board :rolleyes:

At this point in product development, both OSX and windows are very similar and it all boils down to personal preference. There are some things that windows does better then OSX. There are some other things that OSX does better then windows. Neither one is inherently bad at this point and you use which tool best suits your needs and helps you get your work done.

emaja
Jun 28, 2011, 08:18 AM
I personally hate many of the new looks in Lion, and will be turning these off when I get it

iOS scroll bars - no thanks
No Dock Indicator for running apps - no thanks
Launchpad - no thanks
Dashboard - never liked - so again no thanks
lack of colour in os - have no choice - but would put colour back if i could
versions - no thanks
auto save - the way it works - no thanks

cant say I ever found features missing from windows when i have used it

Just asking, but what features of Lion are you looking forward to? Seems to me that you named some of the biggest features and aren't interested in them.

Stok3
Jun 28, 2011, 08:22 AM
To me the multi touch gestures alone justify the $30 price tag.

jjatie
Jun 28, 2011, 08:23 AM
Buying Lion is a complete waste of $30. There is nothing new. Plus Rosetta is not in there so that means 2 apps I use all the time would be worthless. But even if it did have Rosetta, still not worth it.

Mission Control is nothing more than a re-named Expose that adds switching to different Spaces. Not impressed.

Multi-touch gestures are already present in Snow Leopard. I can already go back and forward in Safari using gestures now...they just added a little effect of seeing the old page scroll off to the right or left of the screen. whoopi.... Now Safari doesn't have a scroll bar. WOW!!! Innovation (sarcasm)

I use gestures right now for everything. To bring up Dashboard, Expose, Spaces, Navigating in windows (safari, finder)..... again nothing new.

I could go on and on.

I think Apple is running out of ideas of innovation in an operating system and are just re-naming things after making them look a little different. Kind of disappointing. But then yet, what else can one really do to an OS....

Apple won't be getting any money from me. I'll stick with my Snow Leopard thank you very much until I see something really new.

One thing they could do is make the OS have an artificial AI that you interact with. Now that would be cool! Tell the Mac to open up Text Edit and have it type what you say like a secretary would, or tell it to Google something and it instantly opens up Safari and does the search for you. Ask it what the weather's like and it opens up The Weather Channel in Safari and tells you the current conditions + forecast (using voice) while you look at it.

Ones imagination is the limit with this. The OS would even have it's own voice that responds to you. Now that's innovation....

Clearly, you've pirated the Lion DP. If you obtained it legally, you would have access to many WWDC videos outlining exactly what's new, and there is a LOT, well beyond what is advertised in the 250 features. When Apple said they were taking things they learned from iOS and bringing it to the Mac, Launchpad and Multi-touch gestures weren't really what they were talking about. Part of this is in the revised API set, but a lot of it is in the design philosophies of application development, and it will create a much better user experience. Lion feels a lot like a stepping stone, much in the same way Snow Leopard was (I'd say Lion or Snow Leopard are as big stepping stones as 10.0-10.4 combined), which brings us to a $30 price point, partially because it would be hard to convince the majority of their user base to upgrade, but also because they can. I don't feel there was ever an OS upgrade worth $130, let alone the $300 Windows costs.

Even if you just take the visible feature set, are you getting less per dollar than if you were to spend the $300 on Windows?

paulsalter
Jun 28, 2011, 08:26 AM
Just asking, but what features of Lion are you looking forward to? Seems to me that you named some of the biggest features and aren't interested in them.

iCloud syncing the same as I do now with MobileMe

Stok3
Jun 28, 2011, 08:29 AM
Even if you just take the visible feature set, are you getting less per dollar than if you were to spend the $300 on Windows?

Well said. What was the major selling point of Windows 7? "Hey its not Vista!"

LOL

WiBu
Jun 28, 2011, 08:41 AM
To me the multi touch gestures alone justify the $30 price tag.

Give BetterTouchTools a look.

maflynn
Jun 28, 2011, 08:46 AM
Regardless of what changes/improvements that Lion brings to the table. The price alone means that a lot of people will be embracing the upgrade.

Also, the MAS approach, love it or hate it means for the consumer a very easy process update their OS.

I question the features that 10.7 has, and that's my opinion but apple has made a very seductive upgrade with the price and ease of installation.

maclaptop
Jun 28, 2011, 02:05 PM
Regardless of what changes/improvements that Lion brings to the table. The price alone means that a lot of people will be embracing the upgrade.

Also, the MAS approach, love it or hate it means for the consumer a very easy process update their OS.

I question the features that 10.7 has, and that's my opinion but apple has made a very seductive upgrade with the price and ease of installation.

Well said. Not only does it make it very easy for the mainstream consumer, but it removes a lot of tech support calls to Apple from those who have gotten in over their heads with a more conventional upgrade method.

We enthusiasts and professionals, tend to forget how much we know as compared to the "average buyer" (if there is such a thing) so, indeed you have pointed out the true value of the path that Apple has chosen to take, with the download model via the Mac App Store.

Dale Sorel
Jul 2, 2011, 06:54 AM
I must say, I'm also not that impressed by Lion. I use a normal mouse (and don't want to use Magic Mouse or Magic Trackpad) so I don't notice all the new gesture stuff. However, because the price is low and the interface had a cleanup, I will buy it. If it was $ 129 I would not buy it.

I'm pretty sure I'll buy Lion for my 2008 iMac as well, for the reasons you've mentioned. Though I'm still very much on the fence as to if I'll buy a Magic Trackpad once Lion hits the streets. Sure would be nice if Apple gave Lion updaters a break on a new Magic Trackpad.

NJRonbo
Jul 2, 2011, 07:12 AM
I'll say this again....

Magic Trackpad makes all the difference in the world
when it comes to Lion. It's the perfect marriage.

I can understand the hesitation to move to a Trackpad.

I hated trackpads of years gone by. Don't necessarily
like them on my Macbook Pro. However, the Magic
Trackpad is a totally different animal. Very large surface
area, and using it on Lion is very much like using iOS 5
on an iPhone or iPad. I love the way your fingers allow
you to zoom in and out of different windows.

Mr Rogers
Jul 2, 2011, 09:14 AM
I'm agnostic here, I've only recently upgraded all my Macs and have them all on 10.6.8 - have trackpad and mighty mouse, but currently prefer mighty mouse for all my work.

I've not upgraded straightaway to a new OS since 10.4 and worry about stability issues and other general little issues that are usually ironed out by build 2.

However, with two new quad core 27in Imac i7's perhaps it may be a good idea to take the plunge early and upgrade everything to Lion in one go - this requires 4 instals though - 2 iMacs, Mac Mini and Boot-drive external that I run mac mini off.

Still downloading Lion GM, so will worry about it Sunday.

BlackMangoTree
Jul 2, 2011, 02:06 PM
Regardless of what changes/improvements that Lion brings to the table. The price alone means that a lot of people will be embracing the upgrade.

Also, the MAS approach, love it or hate it means for the consumer a very easy process update their OS.

I question the features that 10.7 has, and that's my opinion but apple has made a very seductive upgrade with the price and ease of installation.

This update is going to piss so many people off with it's mission control overtaking spaces and expose. Apple have screwed up here.

tokyojerry
Jul 4, 2011, 06:33 PM
For me there are a few features that make it a huge step up from snow leopard worth the time.
Again these are just features that I am loving.
-Auto save/versions. Amazing. It is a realy simple version control. I currently manually save every 5 or 10 minutes to a new file incase I mess something up. Now built in.

-Select some files, and it makes a new fodler and stores them in it. Amazing.
-Merge content of folders
-Cut and paste of files.
-Low power wake fo file sharing. So If I need a file from another mac it won't turn on the monitor and junk. Just enough to get me my files.
-Mission control.. Makes me feel like a space man :D
-File sorting. New (much needed) additions finally make the finder more usable.


-Per user screen sharing - AMAZING. I have been really looking forward to this.

-Air drop. Depending on the speed of this, I assume this will be quite handy. Should be quicker than going and setting up a shared folder for a single file. (or moving a file to a shared folder).


Thanks for the heads up on these items. I was not even aware of some of them. (like creating a new folder for multi-selected files).

Waverunner
Jul 23, 2011, 08:32 AM
The changes the Lion has brought to me are merely cosmetic. Mission control is now an icon that duplicates F3. Safari suffers a slow down. Mail looks awful and yes I realize I can change that back. I lost the functionality of MS Office... and yes I use that b/c I can share work with every MS user I work with. Launchpad is nothing more than a application folder made pretty. Now when I use Dashboard, my background is no longer available... instead, I now see a rubber floor mat. Address book looks awful.

I truly wanted a faster, leaner OS. A shake up of Safari to give it lightning fast loading. Give iPhoto an injection of go juice. I am more concerned about the engine than I am the fenders on my Macs. All the superficial makeovers are fine but I’d rather that stayed on my iPhone and iPad not on my Mac Pro or iMac. I wonder if I can get my $30 back?

petvas
Jul 23, 2011, 09:06 AM
On my Mac Pro Lion is a decent update, nothing revolutionary but it offers nice enhancements, better security and it works well. On my new Macbook Air Lion really thrives and I have to say that today I understood what Apple did for laptop users with small screens. For such users Lion is much better than Snow Leopard. Full screen mode is godsend and it is not the same as maximizing a window...Mission Control works really well on my Macbook Air. My only complain is that on my Mac Pro the advantages aren't that much, but I can understand and accept it, since most Macs are laptops nowadays...

johnhw
Jul 23, 2011, 09:10 AM
I thought Snow Leopard was a good deal at $29. Lion is a way better deal at $29. On a Desktop Mac some of the features don't make sense (ex: Launchpad, Full-screen) but on small-screen MacBooks they do

NJRonbo
Jul 23, 2011, 09:22 AM
Actually, on a desktop it makes perfect sense if you buy a MagicTrackpad.

Lion is designed for trackpad (gestured) use. Even the Magic Mouse is almost just as good.

adjuster
Jul 23, 2011, 09:27 AM
The best feature for me is the built in full disk encryption and the ability of Time Machine to function with it. Time Machine was useless with Filevault.

Also, one of the reports said the security features of Lion are like Windows 7 plus, plus, plus.

This, by itself, is worth the upgrade.

petvas
Jul 23, 2011, 09:30 AM
Actually, on a desktop it makes perfect sense if you buy a MagicTrackpad.

Lion is designed for trackpad (gestured) use. Even the Magic Mouse is almost just as good.

I have both the Magic Trackpad and the mouse but still, Lion's major features (that are user related) work much better on a small screen. Having Launchpad on my 27" Cinema Display taking the whole screen is ridiculous. On my MBA it is great though. The same goes for full screen apps. Of course Lion is not only about Full screen apps and the launchpad. It brings so many new features that even a power user is happy. I have Lion Server installed and I use it as a Webdav and VPN server, something I couldn't really do before without additional software.
Mission Control also works well and I like it, so I would say that it is a power user feature, even if it lacks some of the functionality of Exposé.
The new Mail, Safari and iCal are also great, especially Safari which I absolutely love on Lion. The multitouch gestures are very tightly integrated in the OS and they work great.
Resume, Autosave and Versions are also great features and even for a power user it is nice to know that the ability to save the state of an app is a nice thing to have.
Overall I am very happy with Lion despite some small bugs that will eventually get solved.

Eric-PTEK
Jul 23, 2011, 09:33 AM
How is this...Apple made a bigger deal out of Lion than they should have.

If it has all these great new features it has done a poor job showing how to implement them, a list is nice, but showing how it can be useful is another.

It was $30, and it covered all the computers. My wife loves the touchpad now, she never touched it before.

I miss my scroll bars.

Safari is screaming fast.

Launchpad is a great idea but for all of Apple's user testing did they ever try to do the gesture from a sitting position?

Still Launchpad is useless though for most, its too cluttered. I installed CS5 and you cannot delete the helper apps from Launchpad, in fact it seems you can only delete apps installed by the App Store.

IMO there is too much of a push to merge iOS and OSx. Fine if that is the master plan OK but doing something just for the sake of doing it does not make it a good thing.

The internal apps may have been greatly improved but never use any of them.

Eric-PTEK
Jul 23, 2011, 09:37 AM
OK here is a bone.

Lion re-connects no problem to connections its lost on Windows shares after sleep/loss of connection.

Of course that is something that should have worked from the start but it even works in apps.

I lost my wireless connection(because of Lion) and when it re-connected I could sync my iPhone without having to restart iTunes which means it reconnected to the server and the library with no interaction. Usually iTunes crashes when this happens and you cannot reconnect to the share without rebooting.

plexdk
Jul 23, 2011, 09:43 AM
I miss my scroll bars.




You can enable them in settings..

Eric-PTEK
Jul 23, 2011, 09:50 AM
You can enable them in settings..

Thanks...I haven't taken the time to sit down and get it back to the way I wanted. I did add the Applications folder back to the Dock though.