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ErikGrim
Jun 8, 2011, 06:09 AM
iTunes 10.5 is a headscratcher. It runs in 64 bit, yet has the same god awful Carbon-like faux UI. Now with even fauxer Lion scrollbars. Complete without elastics and an insanely low framerate. I can literally see the steps in the fade out animation when I stop scrolling. (New SSD iMac BTW in case you think my system is at fault).

Can anyone explain these discrepancies? (First one to pipe up with "it's beta" gets the lead pipe).



bizzle
Jun 8, 2011, 06:34 AM
iTunes 10.5 is a headscratcher. It runs in 64 bit, yet has the same god awful Carbon-like faux UI. Now with even fauxer Lion scrollbars. Complete without elastics and an insanely low framerate. I can literally see the steps in the fade out animation when I stop scrolling. (New SSD iMac BTW in case you think my system is at fault).

Can anyone explain these discrepancies? (First one to pipe up with "it's beta" gets the lead pipe).

Looks fine on my Early 2008 MacBook Pro.

robbieduncan
Jun 8, 2011, 06:38 AM
iTunes 10.5 is a headscratcher. It runs in 64 bit

Can ou provide a screenshot of this? I've seen it stated multiple times but mine certainly is not running in 64 bit mode (as confirmed Activity Monitor).

Chundles
Jun 8, 2011, 06:42 AM
Can ou provide a screenshot of this? I've seen it stated multiple times but mine certainly is not running in 64 bit mode (as confirmed Activity Monitor).

Mine runs 64bit.

bizzle
Jun 8, 2011, 06:43 AM
Can ou provide a screenshot of this? I've seen it stated multiple times but mine certainly is not running in 64 bit mode (as confirmed Activity Monitor).
There you go.

robbieduncan
Jun 8, 2011, 06:47 AM
Mine runs 64bit.

There you go.

Are you guys running Snow Leopard or Lion? I am slightly confused as to why the version I downloaded from the iOS developer site is only 32 bit :confused:

In the Finder info window mine claims to be "iTunes 10.5b27". Are yours the same?

bizzle
Jun 8, 2011, 06:48 AM
Are you guys running Snow Leopard or Lion? I am slightly confused as to why the version I downloaded from the iOS developer site is only 32 bit :confused:

In the Finder info window mine claims to be "iTunes 10.5b27". Are yours the same?

Same build, running in DP4. If you notice this thread is in the Lion section.

robbieduncan
Jun 8, 2011, 06:58 AM
Same build, running in DP4. If you notice this thread is in the Lion section.

Oops: did not notice as I came in via the Forum Spy :o

The lipo results are quite interesting:


unknown-58-b0-35-73-32-00:MacOS robbie$ lipo -info iTunes
Architectures in the fat file: iTunes are: ppc i386 x86_64

So clearly this version is 64-bit compatible but will not run as 64-bit on an older OS (I don't even get the "Open in 32-bit mode" option in the info window in the Finder).

The "Application priority" key in the Info.plist correctly has 64 bit before 32 bit but the "Minimum system versions, per-architecture" key indicated 64-bit mode is for 10.7 only (see attachment). This would indicate that there is a framework that is in 10.7 or is 64-bit in 10.7 that is not there in 10.6...

Beavix
Jun 8, 2011, 07:05 AM
Yes, it works as 64-bit only in Lion. I have it installed on both 10.6 and 10.7. In SL is 32 bit.
The curious thing is iTunes seems to be the only (?) Apple app which is still updated to run on G4 and G5 Macs. Is there another one?

robbieduncan
Jun 8, 2011, 07:11 AM
To get back to the original question it would still seem to be Carbon (see screenshot). If you look at a pure Cocoa app (like Aperture) that Carbon key is not there.

So my conclusion is that Apple has enabled 64-bit Carbon in Lion and all that work Adobe and Microsoft did porting their huge Carbon UI codebases to Cocoa was a bit of a waste!

PurrBall
Jun 8, 2011, 07:14 AM
I thought full-screen mode was a cocoa-only feature, though?

bizzle
Jun 8, 2011, 07:17 AM
Yes, it works as 64-bit only in Lion. I have it installed on both 10.6 and 10.7. In SL is 32 bit.
The curious thing is iTunes seems to be the only (?) Apple app which is still updated to run on G4 and G5 Macs. Is there another one?

Safari and Quicktime have PPC support still because of Leopard.

joelovesapple
Jun 8, 2011, 07:24 AM
I think this might be one reason they don't want Core Solos or Core duos to work with this... so that the apps can be true 64-bit.

Just a thought...

ErikGrim
Jun 8, 2011, 06:53 PM
To get back to the original question it would still seem to be Carbon (see screenshot). If you look at a pure Cocoa app (like Aperture) that Carbon key is not there.

So my conclusion is that Apple has enabled 64-bit Carbon in Lion and all that work Adobe and Microsoft did porting their huge Carbon UI codebases to Cocoa was a bit of a waste!

Is Adobe going to be pissed or what? :P

ErikGrim
Jun 8, 2011, 06:54 PM
Cocoa or Carbon, they REALLY need to fix scrolling on Lion. It's atrocious.

Cromulent
Jun 8, 2011, 07:37 PM
Cocoa or Carbon, they REALLY need to fix scrolling on Lion. It's atrocious.

What's wrong with it?

NameUndecided
Jun 8, 2011, 07:53 PM
Does this beta version of iTunes have a fullscreen mode? (I figured I would have heard mention of it if it did.)

kirky29
Jun 8, 2011, 07:58 PM
Does this beta version of iTunes have a fullscreen mode? (I figured I would have heard mention of it if it did.)

Yep, it does.
They've also moved the traffic lights back to the top.

NameUndecided
Jun 8, 2011, 08:01 PM
Yep, it does.
They've also moved the traffic lights back to the top.

Excited squee noise! Thanks for the confirmation on that.

Lukeit
Jun 8, 2011, 08:44 PM
There you go.

Wow only 88.9 Mb of memory usage for iTunes 5...
I have noticed a much increased use compared to previous version ... mine for instance, start at 150Mb

Bear
Jun 8, 2011, 08:56 PM
Wow only 88.9 Mb of memory usage for iTunes 5...
I have noticed a much increased use compared to previous version ... mine for instance, start at 150MbMine is closer to 200MB (10.3.1) - it all depends on the size of your library.

lewis82
Jun 8, 2011, 09:21 PM
Wirelessly posted (iPod touch 2nd gen: Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; fr-fr) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

Does this beta version of iTunes have a fullscreen mode? (I figured I would have heard mention of it if it did.)

Yep, it does.
They've also moved the traffic lights back to the top.

Meh. I actually liked them on the side, it took less vertical space.

tkermit
Jun 8, 2011, 09:26 PM
Meh. I actually liked them on the side, it took less vertical space.

And the whole header area looked nicely symmetrical :(

TheAppleDragon
Jun 8, 2011, 10:34 PM
Maybe it's because it's paired with Lion DP4, but it runs very smoothly for me. A lot better than 10.2.2 did. :p

But I do not doubt what you are referring to is true in some cases.

jeanlain
Jun 9, 2011, 05:37 AM
What's wrong with it?
For me it scrolling performs poorly and use a lot more CPU tan in Snow Leopard.
Actually, the issue might be that the window contents redraw at each incremental step, whereas it's more lazy in 10.6, drawing just the rectangle that become visible. Not sure if it's an intentional change, something that will be fixed, or a tradeoff they had to make, but my Macbook isn't too happy with that.

bushido
Jun 9, 2011, 05:48 AM
is the beta multilingual or english only?

Firen
Jun 9, 2011, 05:53 AM
is the beta multilingual or english only?

Seems to be english only. Lion running german, iTunes english.

Žalgiris
Jun 9, 2011, 06:02 AM
So my conclusion is that Apple has enabled 64-bit Carbon in Lion

64 bit Carbon was axed a very long time ago (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2007/06/64-bit-support-in-leopard-no-carbon-love.ars).

I very much doubt they are now coming back with 64 bit carbon support in Lion.

slb
Jun 9, 2011, 04:43 PM
Complete without elastics and an insanely low framerate. I can literally see the steps in the fade out animation when I stop scrolling. (New SSD iMac BTW in case you think my system is at fault).

Cocoa isn't magically going to fix framerate issues. Much of Cocoa is built on top of Foundation (Carbon) APIs anyway, so it ends up calling the same code.

wikus
Jun 9, 2011, 05:06 PM
I hope the guy behind Vox (http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/24852/vox) hurries up and releases it with a library.
iTunes is bloat, and the name is misleading, not everyone cares for ipod, ipad, iphone, aTV, itms, and all that other junk inflating an application JUST to play music.

ErikGrim
Jun 9, 2011, 05:15 PM
Cocoa isn't magically going to fix framerate issues. Much of Cocoa is built on top of Foundation (Carbon) APIs anyway, so it ends up calling the same code.

It is not using the native list view, which causes the poor performance. So yes, using the native view would give you "magically" better performance. If you've used Twitter on the DPs you'll remember when they switched to the native scroll list view.

oiuh151
Jun 9, 2011, 10:16 PM
So iTunes is finally a cocoa app or has Apple removed the 32-bit carbon limitation?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 11:28 PM
Who cares, right now im using iTunes on a 2010 MacMini and performance is excellent. I don't see how it could perform any better.

bluesloth
Jun 9, 2011, 11:34 PM
Anyone care to post of screen shot of full screen?

Is there anything unique in full screen as far as how the app behaves?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 11:39 PM
I don't see any way to make iTunes fullscreen under Lion, unless i am blind.

Sneakz
Jun 10, 2011, 12:27 AM
Don't you see an arrow in the top right corner?

ErikGrim
Jun 10, 2011, 12:29 AM
I don't see any way to make iTunes fullscreen under Lion, unless i am blind.Do you have iTunes 10.5b more to the point :P

BlackMangoTree
Jun 10, 2011, 12:46 AM
That would be why. Downloading now.

Macs4u
Jun 10, 2011, 09:49 AM
Hi,

How do you get 10.5 beta to run on 10.7??

All i get is error -50

Matt

slb
Jun 10, 2011, 11:24 AM
It is not using the native list view, which causes the poor performance.

A Carbon table view isn't going to cause any noticeably poor performance. iTunes' bottleneck while scrolling is most likely in its database access. A Cocoa application would require the same manual pre-fetching performance work that a Carbon application would, so switching to Cocoa wouldn't suddenly make scrolling faster. If you're talking about actually drawing to the screen, both Cocoa and Carbon are going through Quartz.

So yes, using the native view would give you "magically" better performance. If you've used Twitter on the DPs you'll remember when they switched to the native scroll list view.

Twitter has always been a Cocoa application.

Sevenfeet
Jun 12, 2011, 05:51 PM
I'd reckon the reason iTunes 10.5 says it needs Carbon is that the 32-bit versions need it, not necessarily the x64 version. If you built this app as a 64-bit only app, it might report it's need for Carbon differently.

hopejr
Jun 12, 2011, 07:08 PM
I had a thought: maybe the fact that the 64 bit version doesn't work pre-10.7 is because Lion may have 64 bit Carbon. Unlikely, but it is slightly possible.

ddoolin0
Jun 12, 2011, 11:26 PM
Idk if anyone mentioned it but it only runs in 64-bit on Lion, not SL or below...

Just throwing that out there. *Hides*

Firen
Jun 13, 2011, 02:35 AM
Fullscreen mode:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1831/bildschirmfoto20110613u.th.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/232/bildschirmfoto20110613u.png/)

Not much different from normal window mode.

joelovesapple
Jun 13, 2011, 03:54 AM
Fullscreen mode:
Image (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/232/bildschirmfoto20110613u.png/)

Not much different from normal window mode.

Fullscreen iTunes?

Does it have any way of utilising the now-defunct remote, seeing as they axed Front Row?

ErikGrim
Jun 13, 2011, 07:28 PM
A Carbon table view isn't going to cause any noticeably poor performance. iTunes' bottleneck while scrolling is most likely in its database access. A Cocoa application would require the same manual pre-fetching performance work that a Carbon application would, so switching to Cocoa wouldn't suddenly make scrolling faster. If you're talking about actually drawing to the screen, both Cocoa and Carbon are going through Quartz.



Twitter has always been a Cocoa application.
That's not the point. What iTunes and Twitter have (or had) in common is that they both roll their own table view.

It's easily identifiable by the jerky scrolling and the fact that there is no elasticity (i.e. no bounce at the end).