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zorinlynx
Jun 8, 2011, 01:44 PM
I contacted our Apple sales rep, asking him how licensing will be done for Mac OS X 10.7 in institutional environment, especially since Apple IDs are only issued to individuals, not companies. I also inquired about the availability of physical install media and stand-alone licenses that don't depend on a download.

He responded today basically saying that he has no idea and will get back to me.

Apple, you are failing hard. Keeping us all in the dark about BASIC LICENSING PROCEDURES like this is not good for business.

So there ya go, not even Apple seems to know what they're doing when it comes to Lion. I think this is going to be the most botched OS release ever in Apple's history.



miles01110
Jun 8, 2011, 01:50 PM
So there ya go, not even Apple seems to know what they're doing when it comes to the enterprise market in general.

Fixed... I think it's comical every time an "Apple is moving into the enterprise market!" article comes out. Then the announcement that Lion is App Store only for the debut... what a joke.

mrapplegate
Jun 8, 2011, 02:00 PM
He responded today basically saying that he has no idea and will get back to me.



How is Apple failing you? The rep does not have an answer and he is doing the needed research and getting back to you. Seems responsible to me.

zorinlynx
Jun 8, 2011, 06:23 PM
I apologize for this thread. You're right, he's probably going to get back to me. I'm just a bit pissed at Apple lately for having such a "fog of war" about how things are going to work and be distributed.

I wish they had a public roadmap of what they're up to, so that we could make planning decisions based on that. Other companies do, why not Apple?

BlackMangoTree
Jun 9, 2011, 09:49 AM
I apologize for this thread. You're right, he's probably going to get back to me. I'm just a bit pissed at Apple lately for having such a "fog of war" about how things are going to work and be distributed.

I wish they had a public roadmap of what they're up to, so that we could make planning decisions based on that. Other companies do, why not Apple?

No need. Steve Jobs knows what you want, need and feel.

Consultant
Jun 9, 2011, 10:15 AM
I apologize for this thread. You're right, he's probably going to get back to me. I'm just a bit pissed at Apple lately for having such a "fog of war" about how things are going to work and be distributed.

I wish they had a public roadmap of what they're up to, so that we could make planning decisions based on that. Other companies do, why not Apple?

So you are in enterprise and would upgrade all your computers to .0 version of new software?

Why don't you wait until official release, and test? Is testing against your company policy? :rolleyes:

Meyvn
Jun 9, 2011, 10:57 AM
So because Apple hasn't personally informed you of every detail of the release PRIOR TO the release, it's going to be the most botched OS ever, and the whole thing will automatically be awful. That makes sense. Seriously, I'm sure Apple appreciates your excitement about their software and desire to get an early jump on its release, but when you're talking about a business, it's often a good idea to wait a bit anyway just to make sure all the new software is compatible and there aren't game-changing bugs out of the gate.

zorinlynx
Jun 10, 2011, 02:13 PM
So you are in enterprise and would upgrade all your computers to .0 version of new software?

Why don't you wait until official release, and test? Is testing against your company policy? :rolleyes:

Yes and no. That brings up another problem with Apple; once Lion is released you can't BUY systems with Snow Leopard preinstalled anymore. So for any new Macs we have no choice but to move to Lion.

We don't plan to upgrade to Lion right away; we just want to have some idea of how to buy it so we can start testing right away. Big difference. :)

Blipp
Jun 10, 2011, 02:53 PM
Yes and no. That brings up another problem with Apple; once Lion is released you can't BUY systems with Snow Leopard preinstalled anymore. So for any new Macs we have no choice but to move to Lion.

We don't plan to upgrade to Lion right away; we just want to have some idea of how to buy it so we can start testing right away. Big difference. :)

You are 100% correct. Since it's looking like new MB Airs and Minis are on the horizon with the Lion release chances are they'll never be able to be rolled back to Snow Leopard. This a total headache for IT departments and can really force your hand in how quickly you end up having to adopt a new OS. Also the OPs questions are entirely legitimate as this App store distribution model is a total nightmare in the enterprise.

My hope is that Apple allows us to pull a DMG from the installer, distribute Lion ourselves and then true up our licensing after the fact. I also don't understand how Apple can feel that this information needs to be restricted. Typically enterprise licensing agreements are not the kind of thing that can just be dealt with once the product is released if you're in any kind of a situation where you may need to support the OS quickly.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 10, 2011, 05:38 PM
Sadly, I think Lion marks the end of Mac OS--as a workstation OS, in an institutional/education/lab environment and in research. Jobs clearly has zero interest in the professional and/or workstation market; his vision for Apple is as an infotainment company. He wants to compete with and beat out the media cartels and simply collect kickbacks for every application/song/show/book sold.

larkost
Jun 10, 2011, 10:41 PM
If you are in IT, and are worried about this then you need to have your employer plunk down the $99 ('s worth of your local currency), and get you in the developer program so that you have early access to do your testing. That is both obvious and straightforward. $99 is a lot easier to justify than the $2000 or $3500 that the old dev programs cost, but even those were worth it to be prepared for deployment.

Being part of that program also gets you onto the NDA-friendly dev forums where people have already answered many of these sorts of questions with information provided in the labs at WWDC.

Note that none of that is appropriate to then share outside of those forums. But if you need it for planning, then get on it now.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 10, 2011, 11:38 PM
^^^
Just having access to the beta builds to test them in an institutional environment does not address the fact that Lion is not being distributed on any sort of physical medium with a model that would be appropriate for a large institutional and/or lab setting.

larkost
Jun 11, 2011, 12:15 PM
^^^
Just having access to the beta builds to test them in an institutional environment does not address the fact that Lion is not being distributed on any sort of physical medium with a model that would be appropriate for a large institutional and/or lab setting.

Re-read my second paragraph. And slow down... Lion has not shipped. Don't jump to "the sky is falling" conclusions based on incomplete information.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 12:33 PM
Yes and no. That brings up another problem with Apple; once Lion is released you can't BUY systems with Snow Leopard preinstalled anymore. So for any new Macs we have no choice but to move to Lion.

We don't plan to upgrade to Lion right away; we just want to have some idea of how to buy it so we can start testing right away. Big difference. :)

You can easily boot as the super user and install snow leopard without any issues.

But what you are saying is effectively the same thing. If you now go and buy a windows machine, you'd get a windows 7 installation disk. How is this bit any different from the present-future mac situation?

baryon
Jun 11, 2011, 12:33 PM
Just create a new Apple ID account, and sign in with that ID onto all of your institution's computers, and buy and download Lion. Done. Pay once, download as many times as you like, as they've already said.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 12:35 PM
Just create a new Apple ID account, and sign in with that ID onto all of your institution's computers, and buy and download Lion. Done. Pay once, download as many times as you like, as they've already said.

Isn't that for 5 users only?

Blipp
Jun 11, 2011, 12:37 PM
Just create a new Apple ID account, and sign in with that ID onto all of your institution's computers, and buy and download Lion. Done. Pay once, download as many times as you like, as they've already said.

We have over 5,000 Macs, there is absolutely no way this is an acceptable option. Further more until our licensing departments see the legal documents they're never going to believe that Apple is licensing an OS upgrade to our entire fleet of Macs for a grand total of $29.99.

If you are in IT, and are worried about this then you need to have your employer plunk down the $99 ('s worth of your local currency), and get you in the developer program so that you have early access to do your testing. That is both obvious and straightforward. $99 is a lot easier to justify than the $2000 or $3500 that the old dev programs cost, but even those were worth it to be prepared for deployment.

Being part of that program also gets you onto the NDA-friendly dev forums where people have already answered many of these sorts of questions with information provided in the labs at WWDC.

Note that none of that is appropriate to then share outside of those forums. But if you need it for planning, then get on it now.You're both right and wrong. Just because you can get to the DMG in the developer build of Lion does not mean that the TOS in the final build will allow altering the installer in such a way as legal. Being in the developer program allows you to test the OS but it does not offer any insight in any way when Apple completely changes distribution methods like they have in this case. Now I'm not assuming the sky is falling but it'd be nice to have a little more information on the matter. To this point neither the dev forums or our Apple enterprise representatives have been able to answer any questions on licensing.

baryon
Jun 11, 2011, 12:41 PM
We have over 5,000 Macs, there is absolutely no way this is an acceptable option.

There will probably be a better solution, but why would this be unacceptable? Before you had to manually install the new OS on each machine from a DVD, now you only need to sign in and click Download, and then it's the same install process as with a DVD... or am I missing something?

thejadedmonkey
Jun 11, 2011, 12:50 PM
How is Apple failing you? The rep does not have an answer and he is doing the needed research and getting back to you. Seems responsible to me.
For a product that was announced how long ago? Apple should be able to answer simple questions like volume licensing agreements by now.

You can easily boot as the super user and install snow leopard without any issues.

But what you are saying is effectively the same thing. If you now go and buy a windows machine, you'd get a windows 7 installation disk. How is this bit any different from the present-future mac situation?

The difference is, if I go to Dell.com, I can order a computer with XP mode. I can still use a site license agreement from Microsoft to install Windows XP on all of my laptops. Even the ones that come with Windows 7 preinstalled.

With Apple, the day that Lion is released, you cannot install 10.6 (let alone 10.5) on any new hardware.

For the OP, if they want to purchase any new hardware in the fall, they need to know that 10.7 Lion is going to be compatible with their current infrastructure. This means asking questions now, and it's appalling that Apple doesn't know what's going on yet.

Blipp
Jun 11, 2011, 01:04 PM
There will probably be a better solution, but why would this be unacceptable? Before you had to manually install the new OS on each machine from a DVD, now you only need to sign in and click Download, and then it's the same install process as with a DVD... or am I missing something?

The single largest reason would be bandwidth. That solution requires us to download 20TB+ worth of data.

Cougarcat
Jun 11, 2011, 01:09 PM
The single largest reason would be bandwidth. That solution requires us to download 20TB+ worth of data.

You just have to download it once. You can copy the installer to a flash drive and install it on as many Macs as you'd like. No need to access the dmg, even. The question remains how AppleIDs for institutions will work, though.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 01:49 PM
For a product that was announced how long ago? Apple should be able to answer simple questions like volume licensing agreements by now.



The difference is, if I go to Dell.com, I can order a computer with XP mode. I can still use a site license agreement from Microsoft to install Windows XP on all of my laptops. Even the ones that come with Windows 7 preinstalled.

With Apple, the day that Lion is released, you cannot install 10.6 (let alone 10.5) on any new hardware.

For the OP, if they want to purchase any new hardware in the fall, they need to know that 10.7 Lion is going to be compatible with their current infrastructure. This means asking questions now, and it's appalling that Apple doesn't know what's going on yet.

Why is that so?

Cougarcat
Jun 11, 2011, 01:55 PM
Why is that so?

You'd have to ask Apple that, but it's probably something to do with them wanting people to be using the latest OS. It's also easier for them to support.

BLACKFRIDAY
Jun 11, 2011, 01:59 PM
You'd have to ask Apple that, but it's probably something to do with them wanting people to be using the latest OS. It's also easier for them to support.

I have got Snow Leopard installed over Lion (I did that after DP3). :|

Cougarcat
Jun 11, 2011, 02:08 PM
I have got Snow Leopard installed over Lion (I did that after DP3). :|

That's because your Mac shipped with Leopard or Snow Leopard. Macs can run any release as long as it's the same or newer that it shipped with. So once Lion is released, Macs shipping in July will be limited to Lion and future releases.

8CoreWhore
Jun 11, 2011, 05:17 PM
Fixed... I think it's comical every time an "Apple is moving into the enterprise market!" article comes out. Then the announcement that Lion is App Store only for the debut... what a joke.

Is there any reason to believe that once we download Lion we can not burn it to a DVD?

If we can, then people can stop being hysterical about it. I love that if my copy gets scratched or missing, I can simply DL another copy for free.

Of course Apple will make it easy for large customers. Sheesh. Relax people.

42streetsdown
Jun 11, 2011, 05:30 PM
it's appalling that Apple doesn't know what's going on yet.
just because the sales rep doesn't know doesn't mean it hasn't been thought about.

Cougarcat
Jun 11, 2011, 06:07 PM
Is there any reason to believe that once we download Lion we can not burn it to a DVD?



Well, the way you make a copy now is cumbersome and not intended by Apple. So Apple could very well break this method in the future, either intentionally or not.

It's unlikely they will change the installer this late, though.

Darien Red Sox
Jun 11, 2011, 10:07 PM
Most Institutional Licensing I have seen is distributed and imaged to computers from an Image Server, this image includes both the OS and any needed software. I would suspect that Lion will be able to be deployed this way.

jayhawk11
Jun 11, 2011, 10:20 PM
Most Institutional Licensing I have seen is distributed and imaged to computers from an Image Server, this image includes both the OS and any needed software. I would suspect that Lion will be able to be deployed this way.

I don't understand this mass hysteria. If you have a need to image more computers than what is feasible via the Mac App Store, you should be be doing it via NetBoot/NetInstall/NetRestore.

I'm just gonna keep on enjoying the fireworks from all these people freaking out. :cool:

freedom42
Jun 12, 2011, 08:06 AM
A point people are missing is that there are closed systems / networks using OSX that will never connect to the internet. And in many cases the only media allowed inbound into that environment is readonly.

I'm just gonna keep on enjoying the fireworks from all these people freaking out. :cool:

mrapplegate
Jun 17, 2011, 03:32 PM
OP, here is some info incase the rep did not get back to you.
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/17/apple-details-lion-purchase-process-for-business-and-education/