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HomeBru Studios
Jun 10, 2011, 05:43 PM
Why has no one asked how much disk space is going to be eaten up by continuous backups of edited files, or if there is a method available to tell the OS to not backup the edits of this file or that file or turn off backups all together? Can the user choose the backup location? Where is the default backup location? Main hard disk? Time Machine disk? iCloud? A single central directory or next to the file being edited? Are ALL edited files backed up regardless of their extension or only certain file types created by specific applications?

I, personally speaking, am not keen on handing my disk free space over to countless backup copies that, more often than not, will never be needed or used.



HelveticaNeue
Jun 10, 2011, 06:01 PM
I assume you are talking about the Versions feature in Lion. I don't know if the feature can be turned off. However, documents can be locked to forbid backing up of the versions. And each Version only saves the differences between the files to minimize the size of the backups, it doesn't re-save the entire file. I think this will take up minimal disk space.

HomeBru Studios
Jun 11, 2011, 03:39 PM
Thanks for your answer. Yes, it is Versions that I was referring to. I realize that they are delta backups but still, over time, it amounts to a waste of space.

I guess I'll just wait for Lion and have a play around with what's available and how badly the system breaks if I purposefully remove backups.

NT1440
Jun 11, 2011, 03:41 PM
Thanks for your answer. Yes, it is Versions that I was referring to. I realize that they are delta backups but still, over time, it amounts to a waste of space.

I guess I'll just wait for Lion and have a play around with what's available and how badly the system breaks if I purposefully remove backups.

If its just the delta, which is true, how does that result in tons of wasted space?

MikhailT
Jun 11, 2011, 04:00 PM
Thanks for your answer. Yes, it is Versions that I was referring to. I realize that they are delta backups but still, over time, it amounts to a waste of space.

I guess I'll just wait for Lion and have a play around with what's available and how badly the system breaks if I purposefully remove backups.

Delta backups are extremely tiny if you’re working with mostly text. You’d generate more used space in a day worth of web browsing than using textedit to make changes to dozens of files in a week.

cube
Jun 11, 2011, 04:03 PM
It is not backup, it's version control.

It will not eat a ton of space. What is saved are the differences, as usual.

MikhailT
Jun 11, 2011, 04:07 PM
It is not backup, it's version control.

It will not eat a ton of space. What is saved are the differences, as usual.

The problem with that is that the general public is not going to understand what version control really is. To them, it is a backup solution because when you take the other features in consideration, it looks like Time Machine for documents. Versions + Autosave + Resume = easy backup + restore.

Apple has basically just integrated a simple powerful version control system for the general public without them knowing all the technical stuff that’s required to use it.

cube
Jun 11, 2011, 04:20 PM
The problem with that is that the general public is not going to understand what version control really is. To them, it is a backup solution because when you take the other features in consideration, it looks like Time Machine for documents. Versions + Autosave + Resume = easy backup + restore.

Apple has basically just integrated a simple powerful version control system for the general public without them knowing all the technical stuff that’s required to use it.

It's not powerful. How do you share, branch, tag, check out sets of files? it's just automatic.

It is interesting for all the individual files that you don't bother to put under version control.

Even if you are using version control, it is interesting for automatic saving of individual file histories between commits.

basher
Jun 11, 2011, 04:23 PM
Can the user choose the version location?

Is there a way to 'purge' old versions when you no longer want/need them?

MikhailT
Jun 11, 2011, 04:25 PM
It's not powerful. How do you branch, tag, check out sets of files? it's just automatic.

It is interesting for all the individual files that you don't bother to put under version control.

Even if you are using version control, it is interesting for automatic saving of individual file histories between commits.

Powerful doesn’t have to be about advanced features. It’s about how it affect people on a daily basis. It’s powerful enough that people will no longer have to worry about saving files or making bad changes (for apps that work with Versions, unfortunately)

Powerful can be a small and simple thing. For an example, the message: “It just works” is a powerful concept that Apple wants so bad to be known for.

baryon
Jun 11, 2011, 04:56 PM
But only applications that have Versions built in will actually make "delta backups", right? Photoshop won't start saving giant PSD backups in Lion, I guess, unless Adobe actually implements it in the future.

I don't think this is a big deal as almost no applications have this implemented at the moment, and I'm not sure if many of them will...

mrapplegate
Jun 11, 2011, 05:00 PM
But only applications that have Versions built in will actually make "delta backups", right? Photoshop won't start saving giant PSD backups in Lion, I guess, unless Adobe actually implements it in the future.

I don't think this is a big deal as almost no applications have this implemented at the moment, and I'm not sure if many of them will...

Correct the app will have to be updated to take advantage of the Lion APIs. I expect most will eventually. They could have a preference to disable it if they build it in.

NT1440
Jun 11, 2011, 05:01 PM
But only applications that have Versions built in will actually make "delta backups", right? Photoshop won't start saving giant PSD backups in Lion, I guess, unless Adobe actually implements it in the future.

I don't think this is a big deal as almost no applications have this implemented at the moment, and I'm not sure if many of them will...

They've made it incredibly easy for devs to implement the service. I don't know how it would work for something big like Photoshop, but its amazing for people writing papers, or if you're like me researching proposed bills (while marking them up) in pdf format.

I think its an awesome feature that most devs will implement seeing as apple has made it easy as possible, just like the full screen implementations.

djrod
Jun 11, 2011, 05:26 PM
Zero extra space, they are stored in the time machine volume.

I mean zero as in zero extra bytes on your Macintosh HD volume

cube
Jun 11, 2011, 05:30 PM
Zero extra space, they are stored in the time machine volume.

I mean zero as in zero extra bytes on your Macintosh HD volume

What?? I don't use Time Machine, I use Retrospect.

This is the only feature that I found interesting in Lion, provided I can have an Install DVD on hand.

mrapplegate
Jun 11, 2011, 05:32 PM
Zero extra space, they are stored in the time machine volume.

I mean zero as in zero extra bytes on your Macintosh HD volume

The local snapshots are not stored on your time machine volume.

djrod
Jun 11, 2011, 05:41 PM
The local snapshots are not stored on your time machine volume.

I know,but he is talking about Versions, if you use time machine the Versions features uses the time machine disk, if not uses the local snapshots that is sort of time machine in the main hard drive.

Just to be clear, Versions do not need you to use time machine to work, but if you use time machine then Versions stores the data in the time machine disk.

Cougarcat
Jun 11, 2011, 06:10 PM
I know,but he is talking about Versions, if you use time machine the Versions features uses the time machine disk, if not uses the local snapshots that is sort of time machine in the main hard drive.

Just to be clear, Versions do not need you to use time machine to work, but if you use time machine then Versions stores the data in the time machine disk.

What if your time machine disk isn't always connected to your mac? Will versions stop working, if it had previously set itself up on your TM disk?


Can the user choose the version location?

Is there a way to 'purge' old versions when you no longer want/need them?

No.

mrapplegate
Jun 11, 2011, 06:15 PM
What if your time machine disk isn't always connected to your mac? Will versions stop working, if it had previously set itself up on your TM disk?

Versions will display , "locked" in the title bar, and you won't be able to view past versions on old documents. If you make a new document, versions will save things locally and you can see different versions.

mrapplegate
Jun 11, 2011, 06:18 PM
Scratch that. There is no other version of the document I choose as a test. My bad.

mrapplegate
Jun 11, 2011, 06:20 PM
A TM machine volume being connected or not has no effect on versions.

Jagardn
Jun 11, 2011, 07:01 PM
I don't know what people are so worried about. How big are Hard Drives these days. You could create a folder with 100 documents with 100+ changes each and it would probably take up less space than 1 Album in your iTunes library. It's not going to eat up all your drive space, and so far only iWork and native apps support it.

capoeira4u
Jun 12, 2011, 02:28 AM
How do you disable this feature for specific apps? This feature is very dangerous for Quicktime...

So last night I was watching some "vacation videos of my wife and kids". I had 4 clips opened at once, don't ask me why but I just like to watch several things at once... To turn it off, I press cmd+Q. So today at work, I opened Quicktime, and BLAMMM!!!!...all four clips popped right up on screen. So I cmd+Q again to shut it down before my boss sees it. I realize to clear the history, you have to close each window individually before quitting the app. But that's still not the end of it. When ever I do App Expose (4 finger swipe down) for Quicktime, the bottom of the screen shows a history of all the clips I've opened and I can't erase it. I tried going to Quicktime>File>Open Recent>Clear Menu, but that still didn't work.

djrod
Jun 12, 2011, 03:04 AM
How do you disable this feature for specific apps? This feature is very dangerous for Quicktime...

So last night I was watching some "vacation videos of my wife and kids". I had 4 clips opened at once, don't ask me why but I just like to watch several things at once... To turn it off, I press cmd+Q. So today at work, I opened Quicktime, and BLAMMM!!!!...all four clips popped right up on screen. So I cmd+Q again to shut it down before my boss sees it. I realize to clear the history, you have to close each window individually before quitting the app. But that's still not the end of it. When ever I do App Expose (4 finger swipe down) for Quicktime, the bottom of the screen shows a history of all the clips I've opened and I can't erase it. I tried going to Quicktime>File>Open Recent>Clear Menu, but that still didn't work.

That feature is Resume, not the one discussed here.

I'm not sure but I think there is some key combo like cmd alt/option Q or something