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MacRumors
Jun 28, 2011, 11:09 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/28/apple-issuing-refunds-for-final-cut-pro-x-upon-request/)


While Apple may be working to quickly add new and restored features (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/28/evidence-of-xml-importer-found-in-final-cut-pro-x/) to Final Cut Pro X, EOSHD reports (http://www.eoshd.com/content/3198/apple-refunding-pros-for-final-cut-pro-x) (via The Next Web (http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/06/28/apple-begins-refunding-unhappy-final-cut-pro-customers/)) that Apple has begun issuing refunds to at least some customers complaining through the company's customer service channels.Here is an example of one such email a disappointed pro received from Apple:

"Moving forward, I understand that you are not satisfied with the app "Final Cut Pro". I can certainly appreciate you would like a refund, and I would be more than happy to help you out with this today. In five to seven business days, a credit of £179.99 should be posted to the credit card that appears on the receipt for that purchase.

Please note that this is a one time exception because the iTunes Terms and Conditions state that all sales are final."A thread (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3134462) in Apple's discussion forums reveals a number of other users who have successfully received refunds for their Final Cut Pro X purchases, although some customers have had to make several requests as part of their conversations with Apple support staff before being granted refunds.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2011/06/fcp_x_header_ratings.jpg


Apple does not have a blanket return and refund policy for App Store applications, although the company has reportedly been required by law to offer one (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-offering-7-day-refund-policy-on-app-store-apps-in-taiwan/) in Taiwan. Apple does offer refunds on a case-by-case basis, however, with customers having reported success gaining refunds for accidental purchases and other extenuating circumstances.

Article Link: Apple Issuing Refunds for Final Cut Pro X Upon Request (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/28/apple-issuing-refunds-for-final-cut-pro-x-upon-request/)



Schtumple
Jun 28, 2011, 11:11 AM
Be nice if they offered a demo period like they did with Aperture to be honest...

nxent
Jun 28, 2011, 11:13 AM
geez, what happened with this program?
it's good that they're at least offering refunds, i guess

Gen
Jun 28, 2011, 11:13 AM
So after they get the refund do they have to delete the app from their computer? ...

nerdo
Jun 28, 2011, 11:14 AM
Demo period sounds fair.

ABernardoJr
Jun 28, 2011, 11:14 AM
Demos and trials seem to be where some of Apple's software might be headed at this rate. I'm impressed that Apple's refunding this software though

Robincognito
Jun 28, 2011, 11:14 AM
Good on Apple. However, I'm sure they expected an angry backlash after removing so many professional features. It's clear that Apple feel that the increase in sales from consumer filmmaker enthusiasts will outweight the loss in sales from professionals.

nerdo
Jun 28, 2011, 11:15 AM
So after they get the refund do they have to delete the app from their computer? ...

Yeah or did apple build a remote un-install feature in this one :P

DirtySocks85
Jun 28, 2011, 11:15 AM
Apple does offer refunds on a case-by-case basis, however, with customers having reported success gaining refunds for accidental purchases and other extenuating circumstances.


I had this happen last year when I bought a $14.99 iPhone app as part of my wife's birthday present, and it didn't measure up to the promised description (or rather I'd say the product description was VERY misleading). I contacted Apple through the customer support section of iTunes and they issued a refund.

Mlrollin91
Jun 28, 2011, 11:15 AM
So after they get the refund do they have to delete the app from their computer? ...

I was wondering that too.. Because if you get a refund from an App Store for iOS you still get to keep the application.. I think Apple should be able to cancel the license on that account unless repurchased, because people will be scamming that all day.

Blipp
Jun 28, 2011, 11:16 AM
So after they get the refund do they have to delete the app from their computer? ...
What, you think they should be able to continue using it? I'd imagine Apple can disable your license somehow.

MacMontana
Jun 28, 2011, 11:16 AM
Wow you know some heads rolled over this one.

Can you say Job Opening?

Themaeds
Jun 28, 2011, 11:16 AM
Maybe they should change the name to "Beta Cut pro"

DirtySocks85
Jun 28, 2011, 11:17 AM
So after they get the refund do they have to delete the app from their computer? ...

If it works anything like refunds on iOS apps (based on my limited personal experience), then it appears to be on the honor system (and future updates of the app won't show up in the App Store).

rorschach
Jun 28, 2011, 11:17 AM
Not really news.

Apple gives refunds for apps all the time, not just for FCPX. It is not policy, and you probably can't do it more than once or twice, but lots of people email Apple and get a refund as a "one time exception."

It's similar to them letting you re-download your iTunes music purchases. It's not policy, but they will let you do it if you ask.

ECUpirate44
Jun 28, 2011, 11:19 AM
Just like mobile me, I can see it now in a future keynote...
Steve: "Final Cut Pro X was not our finest hour."

psxp
Jun 28, 2011, 11:19 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

zerofour
Jun 28, 2011, 11:21 AM
It seems FCPX is to FCP7 what Quicktime X is to Quicktime 7 :eek:

Glad I'm still using FCS2 to be honest. I'll wait a while before making any more judgement

BigJohno
Jun 28, 2011, 11:22 AM
I defiantly think a Demo of the software would have been nice. Especially because it was missing so many features. What goof by Apple.

WestonHarvey1
Jun 28, 2011, 11:22 AM
Wow you know some heads rolled over this one.

Can you say Job Opening?

So they should fire the father of digital video editing - and replace him with whom, exactly? That would be like NASA firing Wernher von Braun.

StephenCampbell
Jun 28, 2011, 11:23 AM
It seems FCPX is to FCP7 what Quicktime X is to Quicktime 7 :eek:

Glad I'm still using FCS2 to be honest. I'll wait a while before making any more judgement

Yup, and also what iMovie 08 and on is to iMovie 06. :(

I bet Apple will see a spike in people buying FCPX and asking for a refund, now that it's getting out that they're willing to give refunds. A lot of people will try to get it for free that way. If Apple is smart, they'll know what that spike means and stop giving refunds.

stevenshizzle
Jun 28, 2011, 11:24 AM
And Steve Jobs asked, "Can somebody tell me what Final Cut Pro X is supposed to do?"

Blipp
Jun 28, 2011, 11:25 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

Because a complete re-write of a program that took the 10 prior years to build had a bad 1.0 release after its first week on the market? I think you're reading FAR too much into this... After a year or so Apple will have either added back features and won over much of their previous user base or FCPX will be abandoned by pros and adopted by pro-ams everywhere. FCPX is going to be a success, it's just a question of which market it wins over, even both if they quickly play their cards right.

314631
Jun 28, 2011, 11:28 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

Yes.

notabadname
Jun 28, 2011, 11:28 AM
Agree on the Demo option. It seems to be such a no-brainer for this type of software. I just finished, and bought my demo of HDR Efx Pro. I would not have tried or bought the software otherwise without a demo. It starts to be too expensive to risk a no-refund option.

I am impressed that they are offering a refund, especially knowing that news of the refund will (and has) spread like an Arizona fire.

iSee
Jun 28, 2011, 11:29 AM
This is good. But it seems silly not to allow refunds in general.

If a customer isn't satisfied, why aggrevate them?
It costs little to allow returns, vs. the cost of losing a customer if they don't.

Of course they need to be able to prevent abuse. e.g., have a mechanism to deactivate software that a customer "returns".

Personally, I would never buy $300 software that I wasn't sure I could return if I needed to. $1, $5, $10, sure, but nothing as expensive as $300.

davidgrimm
Jun 28, 2011, 11:29 AM
I'd wish they'd do a 30 day trial.

Its decent that they're offering a refund to the unsatisfied, but I suspect we'll still hear whining about this for months to come.

RoboCop001
Jun 28, 2011, 11:30 AM
I guess it's like the QuickTime rewrite of QuickTime X. They didn't finish all the features on time lol.

But hopefully the "full" version of FCPX doesn't require 10.8! hah.

I'm sure they'll be adding all the "old" features back into it. A rewrite this big takes time.

But they should not have released it like this. They should have waited for more features to be finished.

notabadname
Jun 28, 2011, 11:31 AM
And Steve Jobs asked, "Can somebody tell me what Final Cut Pro X is supposed to do?"

In this case it "does it", it just does too much of it on its own. Pros want more control.

BenRoethig
Jun 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

Just like they were with this buggy feature incomplete thing called Mac OS X a decade ago. How's that turn out?

Apple made a lot of mistakes here, but moving to a new architecture for the pro video editor was no one of them. They released it too soon, didn't offer a heads up it was radically different and not feature complete, didn't offer a trial/public beta, and made it difficult to run along side the existing final cut (have to run it on a different partition) during the transition. Those were Apple's big sins.

MH01
Jun 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
Consumers and refunds aside, this is a huge kick on the guts to Media agencies, I have had a very enjoyable time this week ruffling the feathers of some of the fan boys in the media editing team. They themselves acknowledge that they are going to have to dump Final Cut. They cannot believe what Apple did with Final Cut Pro. Its useless for us, as we are one of the 2 biggest media agencies in the UK and have truck load of assets tied up in FCP and not being able to open then in FCPX is a joke. Not to mention a huge backward step in features.

Manderby
Jun 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
Please note that this is a one time exception because the iTunes Terms and Conditions state that all sales are final.
They may write that even in big letters and it would still not be a valid argument. It's a contract like any other and therefore can always be disputed. At least in some countries.

Lesser Evets
Jun 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
Hope this is a violent wake-up call for Apple's Final Cut and software departments. Such a huge infrastructure and they can't get close to right with an established video editing suite?

ABernardoJr
Jun 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

lol It was just this one piece of software, let's not get carried away

FroMann
Jun 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
Didn't expect that, atleast Apple is listening to its consumers. Hopefully the software can be improved later.

MacAddict1978
Jun 28, 2011, 11:35 AM
Wow you know some heads rolled over this one.

Can you say Job Opening?

I'm just sorry Steve is still on medical leave and isn't there to tell them how much they should all hate themselves right now.

"What do people use FCP for?"
"Professional video editing, sir."
"Then why..." (as he hurls boxed copies of Mobile Me at people) "can't they f%)(#%(ing do that?"

RoboCop001
Jun 28, 2011, 11:37 AM
I'm just sorry Steve is still on medical leave and isn't there to tell them how much they should all hate themselves right now.

"What do people use FCP for?"
"Professional video editing, sir."
"Then why..." (as he hurls boxed copies of Mobile Me at people) "can't they f%)(#%(ing do that?"

lol If only there was a video of that.

Blipp
Jun 28, 2011, 11:38 AM
They may write that even in big letters and it would still not be a valid argument. It's a contract like any other and therefore can always be disputed. At least in some countries. Why is your comment quoting me? I never said anything about the iTunes agreement...

MacAddict1978
Jun 28, 2011, 11:40 AM
lol It was just this one piece of software, let's not get carried away

I wouldn't say just 1 piece of software... though this is probably the biggest kick in the pants so far.

They're showing consistency with releasing software not ready for prime time. Even in the hardware end, they have seen their share of quality control problems that they never used to have.

I think Apple is spreading themselves to thin. They are constantly pulling people from one team to assist another.

Reading comments of people using Lion, it still sounds like it's not ready for the masses. (I'm going to wait till at least the first point update.) I think they need to hire more people!

RoboCop001
Jun 28, 2011, 11:40 AM
Looks like XML importing is actually in there but hasn't been activated yet:

http://9to5mac.com/2011/06/28/import-of-previous-final-cut-pro-xml-coming-soon-to-final-cut-pro-x/#more-77569

justinfreid
Jun 28, 2011, 11:41 AM
"Everything just changed in post.*"

*Not necessarily for the better. All Sales Final.

I wonder if people would be as upset if the name Final Cut, and thus expectations based on older versions, was not used for this software.
Apple's break with the functionality of the past versions, and not deficiencies in FCP X, seem to be the source of a lot of complaints.

BillyBobBongo
Jun 28, 2011, 11:41 AM
Hope this is a violent wake-up call for Apple's Final Cut and software departments. Such a huge infrastructure and they can't get close to right with an established video editing suite?

I think it should be more of a wake up call that this distribution system that they're pushing isn't the way forward. People want to demo products like this and then buy them, especially at higher prices.

That said it's hard to imagine that they've made an update to an absolute software legend like Final Cut Pro and found themselves in this position. Nice to see people getting their money back though.

wilsonlaidlaw
Jun 28, 2011, 11:44 AM
I would have thought that if any UK buyer decided within a 7 day period from purchase, that the product did not meet expectations, they would be entitled under UK distance selling regulations, to a full refund.

I recently bought some headlights on a special offer for my classic 1977 rally RSR Porsche. The seller sent and charged me for 2 at full price (over £300 each against the special offer price of £76 each), saying he had run out of the special offer ones and claiming he had told me this. When I asked them to take them back, they said they would have to charge me 15% re-stocking fee. I told them to get on their bike, as it was covered by UK distance selling regulations and if they tried that, I would get my bank to process a re-charge. I was so angry, I would have happily seen them in court. I got a full refund ex P&P charges.

ThunderSkunk
Jun 28, 2011, 11:46 AM
I'd bet Apple would have a hard time justifying spending money on continuing development of FCS, after they thought they were in the clear of it, but it seems like FCX would be a nice prosumer option. For iMovie customers who want a lot more bang, but for a lot less buck than FCS.

It'd be a pretty kickass lineup:

Free iMovie
$300 Final Cut X(press)
$1000 FCS

They'd need to hire some more programmers tho.

Verloc
Jun 28, 2011, 11:48 AM
lol It was just this one piece of software, let's not get carried away

MobileMe, QuickTime X, iPhoto '09, iTunes 10 were all questionable "upgrades". It's a worrying trend.

Mak47
Jun 28, 2011, 11:49 AM
Consumers and refunds aside, this is a huge kick on the guts to Media agencies, I have had a very enjoyable time this week ruffling the feathers of some of the fan boys in the media editing team. They themselves acknowledge that they are going to have to dump Final Cut. They cannot believe what Apple did with Final Cut Pro. Its useless for us, as we are one of the 2 biggest media agencies in the UK and have truck load of assets tied up in FCP and not being able to open then in FCPX is a joke. Not to mention a huge backward step in features.

Just out of curiosity, not debating the quality of FCPX, but what would possess one of the two biggest media agencies in the UK to move to a 1.0 program immediately upon it's release?

I don't care who the software comes from, that's just not a good decision and disappointment is almost guaranteed.

I own an audio production company, one of the smallest in the US, and we would never in a million years jump onto a 1.0 release. When Pro Tools updates, we wait. When OS X updates, we wait. New features are exciting, but jeopardizing productivity on untested software is not a risk we're willing to take.

I can't believe so many professionals actually did this.

Small White Car
Jun 28, 2011, 11:49 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

No. Marketing.

The program is awesome. They sold it in completely the wrong way.


I can't believe so many professionals actually did this.

Yeah. I seriously doubt some of these posts. We were always looking at 2012 as the time to update to Final Cut Pro X. We're still in the 'wait and see' mode. Nothing that's happened in the past week is really upsetting to us. We'll just be waiting to see what happens either way.

odedia
Jun 28, 2011, 11:51 AM
I honestly think that Final Cut Pro X is the best thing that Apple has created in a very long time. It is just amazing to me how powerful and fluid it is to edit with it. It is more amazing to me the amount of backlash it has received.

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
I would have thought that if any UK buyer decided within a 7 day period from purchase, that the product did not meet expectations, they would be entitled under UK distance selling regulations, to a full refund.

The 7 day cooling off period doesn't usually apply to digital products, as it also doesn't for CDs, DVDs, and tapes that have been unsealed.

I'm not a professional film maker by any means but am enjoying Final Cut Pro X. Got it at half price by exchanging a lot of Tesco coupons so it's quite an incredible deal for me.

notjustjay
Jun 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
I'd bet Apple would have a hard time justifying spending money on continuing development of FCS, after they thought they were in the clear of it, but it seems like FCX would be a nice prosumer option. For iMovie customers who want a lot more bang, but for a lot less buck than FCS.

It'd be a pretty kickass lineup:

Free iMovie
$300 Final Cut X(press)
$1000 FCS

They'd need to hire some more programmers tho.

Yeah, but... that's what Final Cut Express was (already) for.

linuxcooldude
Jun 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
I find it all very strange. What professional goes out and buys a totally new rewrite of software on the first day of release? Then expects a refund? Stupid.

acurafan
Jun 28, 2011, 11:53 AM
a total MobileMe screw up. jobs' dropping F bombs at the conf. rm now, someone's crying.

*LTD*
Jun 28, 2011, 11:54 AM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

Yup. All of a sudden. Just like that. For no apparent reason. :rolleyes:

freiheit
Jun 28, 2011, 11:54 AM
Be nice if they offered a demo period like they did with Aperture to be honest...

With the App Store and DRM, Apple ought to be able to offer trial periods. Before laying down $300 (+$50 for Motion + $50 for Compressor) on a product which is getting a lot of negative reviews, it would be awfully nice to be able to try before I buy. I'm coming from Final Cut Express rather than Pro, so I might not notice anything "missing" but it is such a drastically new interface and might not even work with my existing media files.

Mr. Chewbacca
Jun 28, 2011, 11:54 AM
And Steve Jobs asked, "Can somebody tell me what Final Cut Pro X is supposed to do?"

In this case it "does it", it just does too much of it on its own. Pros want more control.

It was a joke. Thats how he started a famous tantrum about Mobile Me. When someone finally said what it was advertised to do he wanted to know they the F it didnt do that... it got a little heated. :rolleyes:

tarproductions
Jun 28, 2011, 11:55 AM
The software is in it's infancy. I believe that Apple has a road map and tricks up their sleeves and soon everyone will realize and be on board. Either way, if you're an editor, it's good to have and know how to use...sometimes its the clients calling the shots.

jdechko
Jun 28, 2011, 11:56 AM
I'm not in A/V production, but I just don't get some of these people. Sure it's incomplete, but it's a total rewrite. Large companies that have been using FCS7 shouldn't be jumping onto this right away anyway. I think John Gruber nailed it when he said that Apple should have introduced this as the new Final Cut Express. And I also agree with everyone who said that Apple should keep selling FCS7 (even if it was phone sales only). Then when FCPX was more updated and had some more support, transition FCS to the new platform.

FasterQuieter
Jun 28, 2011, 12:00 PM
Because a complete re-write of a program that took the 10 prior years to build had a bad 1.0 release after its first week on the market? I think you're reading FAR too much into this... After a year or so Apple will have either added back features and won over much of their previous user base or FCPX will be abandoned by pros and adopted by pro-ams everywhere. FCPX is going to be a success, it's just a question of which market it wins over, even both if they quickly play their cards right.

I agree, I think the app is wonderful, I cannot believe how smoothly it handles my un-transcoded 5D Mark 2 footage. Even though I am still rather baffled by a lot of it, I was able to do a quick edit in no time. All that background rendering and analysis it does whilst you are working is a thing of real beauty. I think many pros will buy it as a toy for quick edits and then once the features they need are added back in, they won't be able to resist moving over completely. That is what I would do if my main job was editing anyway. I'd actually be so impatient I'd be searching for 3rd party solutions to all the missing features already.

mopppish
Jun 28, 2011, 12:03 PM
This is idiotic.
It's not like Apple was hiding the fact that a lot of professional functionality had not yet been implemented.
They completely changed the video editing paradigm.
So, the attitudes SHOULD break down as such:

"Neato! A new Final Cut Pro. It's missing a lot of the stuff that I need, but I'll throw down $300 to try it out while continuing to use the old version for my professional work. I can't wait until they bring it up to par with the features of the old one."

OR

"Hmm, a new Final Cut Pro. Looks like it's not quite ready for prime time yet, so I'll continue using the old version while keeping an eye on update releases. Once they add in such and such, then I'll switch over."

Anything else is just stupid/short-sighted/etc.
I haven't used the program yet myself, but my girlfriend does editing in Final Cut Pro 7 all the time. The fact that rendering happens in the background and import/sequence settings don't have to be futzed with (she works with a LOT of found footage) is literally life changing. Yes, LITERALLY.

HiRez
Jun 28, 2011, 12:04 PM
I'm guessing this is not quite the same type of excitement Apple was expecting from FCPX...

Looks like a really nice start, they just should have waited. Honestly, Apple should know better. Professional artists (including editors) are some of their most loyal and hard core users, it's not wise to piss them off, and Apple should have foreseen that a lot of missing functionality that puts them at a competitive disadvantage would do just that. I know, they can still use FCP7, but that's not how they sold it.

Jcoz
Jun 28, 2011, 12:05 PM
I wouldn't say just 1 piece of software... though this is probably the biggest kick in the pants so far.

They're showing consistency with releasing software not ready for prime time. Even in the hardware end, they have seen their share of quality control problems that they never used to have.

I think Apple is spreading themselves to thin. They are constantly pulling people from one team to assist another.

Reading comments of people using Lion, it still sounds like it's not ready for the masses. (I'm going to wait till at least the first point update.) I think they need to hire more people!


I don't agree with this assessment. I don't believe they have shown a recent pattern of consistancy with releasing software not ready for prime time.

Clearly there have been some misteps with how theyh have handled FCP here. Not disputing that.

Concerning the hardware quality control, my feeling would be that you seem to be exaggerating the present and minimizing past, without adjusting for the increase in number of devices that apple produces now as opposed to say, 10 years ago.

As far as constantly pulling people from one team to another, as I understand it that is 100% by design, and one they'd been following for quite some time.

I can't comment on Lion, but I don't even know why you mentioned it in the first place, given it is not released.

Gemütlichkeit
Jun 28, 2011, 12:06 PM
Dooms day keyboard jockies going nuts in this thread.

Let's step back into reality. Did apple mess up? yes. does this spell the end for apple? no

will they rebound in a future update? yes

BC2009
Jun 28, 2011, 12:07 PM
The new Final Cut Pro looks like an amazing app. However, Apple released this the wrong way. Let's face it.... the new version of Final Cut Pro will open up video editing to a large number of people, but it should have been released in one of the following ways:

1) As a "beta" or "preview" release
--> Then pro users would feel like they are getting an early hands on, but would have a bit more reassurance that the final version would have all the features they know and love (including import capability from FCP7).

2) Branded as Final Cut Studio X (not Pro)
--> This may have been a bit tough since some features in FCPX are clearly pro features, but so many things the pros need are still missing. I prefer option (1) here.

3) With the ability to import the FCP7 files.
--> The biggest scare factor is not being able to import your old files. Eventually Apple will abandon FCP7 which will eventually mean it won't run on the latest version of Mac OSX. I think the FCP X release should have at least included the ability to import the old projects WITHOUT modifying the old projects (i.e.: leave the old projects so that they will still work in FCP-7, but let users try them out in FCP-X).

This is a case of great leap in software that is suffering from some resistance to change and from some gaping holes that are left to be filled. Its like a new eight-lane freeway, but with potholes and some exits closed.

If it was simply labeled "Preview" or "Beta", Apple could have avoided much of the backlash they are seeing.

dvkid
Jun 28, 2011, 12:07 PM
...and made it difficult to run along side the existing final cut (have to run it on a different partition) during the transition.

Got it running on the same partition right now. Only limitation is that they cannot run simultaneously. Not a big deal, though, since I've shelved FCPX for a couple months until I have time to pour into it and learn to at least try it the way it was meant to be used.

sined13
Jun 28, 2011, 12:09 PM
Because a complete re-write of a program that took the 10 prior years to build had a bad 1.0 release after its first week on the market? I think you're reading FAR too much into this... After a year or so Apple will have either added back features and won over much of their previous user base or FCPX will be abandoned by pros and adopted by pro-ams everywhere. FCPX is going to be a success, it's just a question of which market it wins over, even both if they quickly play their cards right.

I'm sure Apple will be quite successful with the average consumer that FCPX is targeting. However, the pros will see it differently -- they have seen that at any given time, Apple can pull the plug on an already established product, with no warning.

Apple has shown its true colors, with big flashy neon signs. If I were a pro who is depending on one of their products right now (say Logic Pro), I'd be very concerned about when/if Apple is going to pull the rug from under my feet.

Jcoz
Jun 28, 2011, 12:12 PM
I'm sure Apple will be quite successful with the average consumer that FCPX is targeting. However, the pros will see it differently -- they have seen that at any given time, Apple can pull the plug on an already established product, with no warning.

Apple has shown its true colors, with big flashy neon signs. If I were a pro who is depending on one of their products right now (say Logic Pro), I'd be very concerned about when/if Apple is going to pull the rug from under my feet.

LOL.

Very few "average consumers" will be purchasing $300 video editors.

VERY few. Can promise you that much.

sined13
Jun 28, 2011, 12:12 PM
Yup. All of a sudden. Just like that. For no apparent reason. :rolleyes:

Yeah because Apple issuing refunds on a product that people are unhappy about qualifies as "no apparent reason" :rolleyes:

Popeye206
Jun 28, 2011, 12:13 PM
Hummm.... looks like some product manager is not having a good day.

sined13
Jun 28, 2011, 12:13 PM
LOL.

Very few "average consumers" will be purchasing $300 video editors.

VERY few. Can promise you that much.

By "average" I'm referring to non-professionals.

reel2reel
Jun 28, 2011, 12:16 PM
For gawd sake, what were people expecting?? So someone has got to have something on the first day just cause it's new and then they whine to Apple about it???

Stella
Jun 28, 2011, 12:17 PM
And Steve Jobs asked, "Can somebody tell me what Final Cut Pro X is supposed to do?"

And Jobs should then apologize for poor leadership.

Apple presented FCPX as a replacement for FCP7, and clearly it isn't according to the people who use the software day in and day out. Apple have discontinued FCP7, which is another irritation for the Pros ( companies can buy no more 'seats' ).

I've bought FCPX and think its rather good - I'm just a hobbyist. This initial release is clearly aimed at the pro-consumer at the most. Apple should have communicated this beforehand and issued a public roadmap for its continued development, and finally, kept FCP for sale.

ebatalha
Jun 28, 2011, 12:18 PM
Guys!! Come on! It's not the end of the World!!!
I use Final Cut Pro 7 every day, it's my job and Apple didn't wrote a letter telling us that we got to change our version of Final Cut immediately! Do you even know how many people in the World still using Windows XP?! Jeez!! I know too that Apple products are highly desirable but let's wait for the updates.
I'm not trying to invert this Apple big fail. Apple needs to fix this quickly!

notjustjay
Jun 28, 2011, 12:18 PM
LOL.

Very few "average consumers" will be purchasing $300 video editors.

VERY few. Can promise you that much.

I did. Several times over.

Back in the early 2000's I started with some Pinnacle "hold your hand" package like Video Studio or something, on my PC. It was a complete "edit video on your PC" kit including the Firewire PCI card to plug into your computer. It cost maybe $125 in total.

I think within about a month I had already outgrown it and wanted to buy something a little more powerful. I ended up buying Ulead Media Studio Pro, for something in the range of $300.

Fast forward a few years later -- I had a nice new PowerBook, I liked iMovie, but felt there were things I wanted to do that it couldn't, so I bought Final Cut Express and loved it.

I'm not a "video editor" by trade (although perhaps by hobby), for the most part an average guy looking to make a nice video or two.

And that was years before YouTube and Facebook and the ubiquity of digital cameras and cell phones made it fashionable for everyone and his kid to shoot, edit and share their own videos. I'd argue that there are even more people now willing to pay a reasonable amount of money for a reasonably powerful, but not quite pro-level, video editing package.

Jcoz
Jun 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
By "average" I'm referring to non-professionals.

Even using "prosumers" or whatever you want to call them, it isn't priced correctly for that IMO.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 12:21 PM
I find it all very strange. What professional goes out and buys a totally new rewrite of software on the first day of release? Then expects a refund? Stupid.

Those that want to start evaluation and certification processes in order to start planning internal migrations of systems since the older version was also announced as EOL/EOS'ed. Basically, anyone who wanted to retain support for their professional level product and didn't want to be left unsupported.

Was that stupid ? Usually vendors will offer evaluation licenses to customers that want to do this, I know we've had HP/VMware/Microsoft issue us free licenses to multi-thousand $ software packages for months to evaluate and plan implementations.

The only stupid thing here is the people that want to stop the pros from voicing their concerns, concerns it seems Apple is taking very seriously if they are issuing refunds.

And Jobs should then apologize for poor leadership.

Apple presented FCPX as a replacement for FCP7, and clearly it isn't according to the people who use the software day in and day out. Apple have discontinued FCP7, which is another irritation for the Pros ( companies can buy no more 'seats' ).

Sounds like when Apple presented the Mac Pro Server as a replacement for the Xserve... ;)

Seriously, Apple wants to be in the consumer market, they don't think there's money to be made on the high-end "profesional" sector. It's more and more apparent every day.

alent1234
Jun 28, 2011, 12:24 PM
apple is making you pay for demo software and they are going after the enterprise market?

sclawis300
Jun 28, 2011, 12:24 PM
And Jobs should then apologize for poor leadership.

Apple presented FCPX as a replacement for FCP7, and clearly it isn't according to the people who use the software day in and day out. Apple have discontinued FCP7, which is another irritation for the Pros ( companies can buy no more 'seats' ).

Not necessarily. Can you really expect one man, who may or may not be very close to his death bed, to have his hands in everything? A good leader delegates. I am 99% sure there was a point man on this thing who was supposed to be overseeing it. Probably met with Steve and said something like, "Working great." "Getting great feedback." "Going to be magical."

Microsoft could really use a marketing genius right now.

conigs
Jun 28, 2011, 12:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, not debating the quality of FCPX, but what would possess one of the two biggest media agencies in the UK to move to a 1.0 program immediately upon it's release?

I don't care who the software comes from, that's just not a good decision and disappointment is almost guaranteed.

I own an audio production company, one of the smallest in the US, and we would never in a million years jump onto a 1.0 release. When Pro Tools updates, we wait. When OS X updates, we wait. New features are exciting, but jeopardizing productivity on untested software is not a risk we're willing to take.

I can't believe so many professionals actually did this.

It has less to do with jumping on the release right away, and more with a general feel for where the platform is going. And they didn't say they installed FCPX on all their machines. To me it sounded more like they got a seat of it, tested it, and found out that it won't suit their needs.

Many organizations (especially those with multiple editors) have workflows that just won't work with FCPX. I agree that I think people should wait to see how Apple responds to the lack of essential features, but it's also not unwise to begin looking at other platforms that currently have those features.

GQB
Jun 28, 2011, 12:25 PM
It does seem that Apple has screwed the pooch on this rollout, and that's unfortunate.
Seems to me that FCPX is a LOT more useful to the much larger number of corporate and small-time filmmakers who aren't trying to make $100 million blockbusters. From everything I've seen this release is a MUCH stronger tool for the 95% market.
As others have noted, they should have released this as iMovie Pro and put FP onto the maintenance track if the intent was get out of the highest end.

But this disproves the meme of Apple as 'all marketing'.

Jcoz
Jun 28, 2011, 12:26 PM
I did. Several times over.

Back in the early 2000's I started with some Pinnacle "hold your hand" package like Video Studio or something, on my PC. It was a complete "edit video on your PC" kit including the Firewire PCI card to plug into your computer. It cost maybe $125 in total.

I think within about a month I had already outgrown it and wanted to buy something a little more powerful. I ended up buying Ulead Media Studio Pro, for something in the range of $300.

Fast forward a few years later -- I had a nice new PowerBook, I liked iMovie, but felt there were things I wanted to do that it couldn't, so I bought Final Cut Express and loved it.

I'm not a "video editor" by trade (although perhaps by hobby), for the most part an average guy looking to make a nice video or two.

And that was years before YouTube and Facebook and the ubiquity of digital cameras and cell phones made it fashionable for everyone and his kid to shoot, edit and share their own videos. I'd argue that there are even more people now willing to pay a reasonable amount of money for a reasonably powerful, but not quite pro-level, video editing package.

Just because there are more people MAKING videos and uploading them doesn't mean there are more people willing to pay $300 ($400 if you include some semi-neccessary add ons) for making youtube videos.

I mean look at how aggressively priced Lion is so that it will be attractive for people to upgrade. I get that you in particular got into editing in 2000. I think because of it you could be grossly overestimating the market for people buying ANY piece of software for $300 or more.

Chris Blount
Jun 28, 2011, 12:27 PM
Guys!! Come on! It's not the end of the World!!!
I use Final Cut Pro 7 every day, it's my job and Apple didn't wrote a letter telling us that we got to change our version of Final Cut immediately! Do you even know how many people in the World still using Windows XP?! Jeez!! I know too that Apple products are highly desirable but let's wait for the updates.
I'm not trying to invert this Apple big fail. Apple needs to fix this quickly!Agree. I don't know the big deal either. I'm not going to bother with a refund. I've already spent the money and been enjoying playing around with FCPX. When Apple sends the updates, I'll just end up spending the money again later.

nostaws
Jun 28, 2011, 12:29 PM
Honestly, I think this is a bad move by Apple (the refunding of money - the release of a non-ready FCP X is worse).

1. Come on, people either new what they were buying or should have waited and researched.

2. Apple admits that this is trash. They should stand by their product, and polish it (which I am sure they will).

3. $300 is the big scheme of things isn't that much money. I am poorer than anyone posting on this board. I understand $300 isn't chump change, but think about how you are spending your money: cable, data plan, etc.

Jcoz
Jun 28, 2011, 12:30 PM
How do you reconcile this:

concerns it seems Apple is taking very seriously if they are issuing refunds.


With this:
Seriously, Apple wants to be in the consumer market, they don't think there's money to be made on the high-end "profesional" sector. It's more and more apparent every day.

alent1234
Jun 28, 2011, 12:30 PM
It does seem that Apple has screwed the pooch on this rollout, and that's unfortunate.
Seems to me that FCPX is a LOT more useful to the much larger number of corporate and small-time filmmakers who aren't trying to make $100 million blockbusters. From everything I've seen this release is a MUCH stronger tool for the 95% market.
As others have noted, they should have released this as iMovie Pro and put FP onto the maintenance track if the intent was get out of the highest end.

But this disproves the meme of Apple as 'all marketing'.


it's the microsoft marketing from the 90's

SGI, Sun and others were obscenely expensive. MS pushed NT as a workstation OS. NT and Intel Pentium weren't as good but for the price more than good enough for most of the market. SGI and others went bankrupt while Intel and Microsoft moved up the enterprise food chain.

same here, they may be going after the market that thinks it's too much to pay Avid or whoever all the time. by the time the big expensive guys figure out what happened most of them will be bankrupt from trying to milk their customers

skellener
Jun 28, 2011, 12:34 PM
Be nice if they offered a demo period like they did with Aperture to be honest...Exactly. Trial or demo versions of apps (like many other developers do in the iOS app store) would go a long way to solving the issue with unhappy customers. :)

edoug
Jun 28, 2011, 12:35 PM
Because a complete re-write of a program that took the 10 prior years to build had a bad 1.0 release after its first week on the market? I think you're reading FAR too much into this... After a year or so Apple will have either added back features and won over much of their previous user base or FCPX will be abandoned by pros and adopted by pro-ams everywhere. FCPX is going to be a success, it's just a question of which market it wins over, even both if they quickly play their cards right.

Maybe they just shouldn't have released it until it was more feature complete. Problem Avoided.

ArtOfWarfare
Jun 28, 2011, 12:39 PM
Has Apple been issuing a lot more refunds in recent years than in the past?

The iPhone 4... Mobile Me... FCPX...

Doesn't sound like a good choice to me... but maybe Apple shouldn't have pushed FCPX out so quickly? It seems like they would have been better off offering it as a trial beta and leaving the option of buying FCPS3... and then in a year when it eclipses FCPS3 in functionality, they could make people pay for FCPX and discontinue FCPS3.

skellener
Jun 28, 2011, 12:40 PM
It does seem that Apple has screwed the pooch on this rollout, and that's unfortunate.
Seems to me that FCPX is a LOT more useful to the much larger number of corporate and small-time filmmakers who aren't trying to make $100 million blockbusters. From everything I've seen this release is a MUCH stronger tool for the 95% market.
As others have noted, they should have released this as iMovie Pro and put FP onto the maintenance track if the intent was get out of the highest end.

But this disproves the meme of Apple as 'all marketing'.Yup. If you aren't going to tape or aren't using multiple cameras or not looking to import old projects, etc... Then FCPX is probably fine. But in that case they should have not released it as FCPX. It should have been released as Final Cut Express X (FCXX ???). Anyway, they could have still sold FCP 7 and still been working on adding the features back into FCXX that Pros need and eventually put out FCPX that would work for Pros in a year. I think they jumped the gun. There does look like some cool stuff is in there, but's it's crippled.

Yamcha
Jun 28, 2011, 12:41 PM
Good to see Apple issuing refunds, I think its clear that Apple really screwed up with this one :P.. Anyway from what I can understand most professionals are not happy with the new Final Cut, but a lot of the new users are happy with it as I hear its easier to use..

myca
Jun 28, 2011, 12:41 PM
I'm glad that people are getting refunds, after all this release has been an absolute disaster (at least for what it's core market is supposed to be).

Apples Pro division needs a good slap around the chops, and maybe new management, they should really talk with their customers more, they still haven't given a statement about this mess.

Apple do sometimes give us software/hardware that we didn't even realise we needed, and a lot of the time it works, but sometimes they royally screw up like this and leave a lot of their customer base unhappy.

Some of the people I know who work in film and TV do like the new features and workflow elements that FCPX has introduced, but the fact that in omitted so much, and you cannot work in collaboration with almost any commonly used workflow or pipeline in post production, means that the software for many is absolutely useless. Plus the fact that Apple were not forthcoming with telling customers that these features were not present. Likewise dropping FCS3 on the same day leaves a lot of larger post houses in a tricky situation where they can no longer get licences if their needs grow.

They should really have dropped a few features and released this as the new Final Cut Express, whilst keeping the old FCS3 available, meanwhile telling the people who need XML/OMF/Multicam and all the other missing features that these would be present in an upcoming Pro version.

Looking at this mess I'm almost glad that for professional use I have to use Pro Tools, even though for personal use I prefer Logic, I don't know if I could trust Apple not to screw that up in the future, even if the last update was pretty spiffing IMHO.

Apple do really need to come out and made a proper public statement about this, instead of hiding behind a journalist, or else the larger (of the 2 million) customers will start to think about jumping ship, it has been 4 years after all since the last noteworthy update to this piece of software.

RobQuads
Jun 28, 2011, 12:43 PM
Maybe they just shouldn't have released it until it was more feature complete. Problem Avoided.

This sort of hits the nail on the head.

if they said "We are bringing out FCPX as the replacement for FCP but its going to take a while to get all the feature there"

Kept support/sale for FCP until it was a *proper* replacement.

Then most would be much happier

scottgroovez
Jun 28, 2011, 12:45 PM
Does anyone know how distance-selling regs (in the UK at least) works (if at all) with downloadable content?

You get a statutory 7 days cooling off period with all physical objects.

BuzzMega
Jun 28, 2011, 12:46 PM
There is no way to buy shoes on the internet. Software is like that, too. With advanced internet distribution methods like the App Store, there MUST be a policy equivalent to "they simply don't fit."

AppleDroid
Jun 28, 2011, 12:46 PM
Guys!! Come on! It's not the end of the World!!!
I use Final Cut Pro 7 every day, it's my job and Apple didn't wrote a letter telling us that we got to change our version of Final Cut immediately! Do you even know how many people in the World still using Windows XP?! Jeez!! I know too that Apple products are highly desirable but let's wait for the updates.
I'm not trying to invert this Apple big fail. Apple needs to fix this quickly!

Isn't a big issue here professional studios that are concerned about Apple EOL Final Cut Studio and the lack of a real time-table on getting features they had, back?

Think about it from their point of view say you rely FCS for your workflow and you just hired 3 more people. Well you need to get them setup but oh wait you can't buy the old version so now what? You cannot use FCPX with older FC files so they are screwed. Awesome.

While I have no issue with Apple going in a new direction they shouldn't have EOL'd FCS 3/ FCP 7 for studios that cannot migrate until the newest version is a real pro app.

CFoss
Jun 28, 2011, 12:48 PM
I just hope Apple doesn't screw up with Logic Studio...

space1nvaders
Jun 28, 2011, 12:49 PM
Even with all the bad ratings, FCPX is #1 in Top Grossing and #8 in Top Paid.

scottgroovez
Jun 28, 2011, 12:50 PM
Will Lion too come with a load of missing features? Early adopters always end up getting burned one way or another. You basically pay to be beta testers.

That doesn't just apply to Apple btw.

robwormald
Jun 28, 2011, 12:51 PM
I find it all very strange. What professional goes out and buys a totally new rewrite of software on the first day of release? Then expects a refund? Stupid.
exactly. all these so called "professionals" are acting like ubilos personally walked into their editing suites and uninstalled all their current copies of FCS. if FCS fulfilled your needs the day before the FCPX launch, it still did the day after.

maclaptop
Jun 28, 2011, 12:52 PM
Be nice if they offered a demo period like they did with Aperture to be honest...

I absolutely agree. It's the sensible thing to do, which would go a long way in the goodwill department as well.

Overall looking at Apple, the company, if they eased up just a bit on some of their hard line stances and denials, they would receive so much good will in return it would take nearly every concern I have away.

After all it's R&D, moving forward they cannot make every decision just right, and therefore if they were a bit more willing to step up, admit fault (not defeat, but mere fault which is fleeting) as they are on this product... Apple would be even more cash rich.

There are people that don't raise a fuss, or author a post in this forum, they just don't buy the product. These are people who's business would be very easy to earn if shown the respect, appreciation and clear cut communication they deserve.

RobQuads
Jun 28, 2011, 12:53 PM
Does anyone know how distance-selling regs (in the UK at least) works (if at all) with downloadable content?

You get a statutory 7 days cooling off period with all physical objects.

I don't think distance selling act holds with downloaded software but "Fit for purpose" does still hold so you could use that avenue.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 12:53 PM
How do you reconcile this:

With this:

It doesn't mean that because they are taking the concerns seriously that moving forward they will fix them quickly, if they even fix them. They just understand they grossly mis-marketed this probably and are issuing refunds in order to do damage control maybe ?

In my head, both statements were not contradictory.

I wouldn't put a cent on Apple fixing these issues in the long term if I were in a position of using this product, I'd start evaluating the competition and just move forward to another vendor with a roadmap to prevent this mishaps.

myca
Jun 28, 2011, 12:54 PM
I just hope Apple doesn't screw up with Logic Studio...

My sentiments.

But it looks like it's gonna be app store only if I had to guess, and with STP2 being canned by the looks of it I'd imagine that Mainstage and Waveburner will be sold separate.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Waveburner gets canned, after all in Apples eyes no-one uses CDs anymore.

I'm not too sad about loosing STP2, as it was at best a mediocre wave editor, and a poor DAW with features that should have been implemented into Logic. Thankfully with Adobe and Steinberg releasing wave editors on the mac my reliance on Windows has diminished greatly.

soLoredd
Jun 28, 2011, 12:54 PM
What would have been the better route for Apple:

1) release FCPX with a demo
2) lengthen FCP7/Express EOL (maybe 6 months post-FCPX release)
3) provide insight as to the big picture plan for FCP

To me, #3 is the biggest screw up. I think people wouldn't be as angry as they are if they had some kind of idea of what is coming down the pipeline. Yes, Apple said multi-camera support and some other items are in progress but that was AFTER the uproar started.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 12:56 PM
exactly. all these so called "professionals" are acting like ubilos personally walked into their editing suites and uninstalled all their current copies of FCS. if FCS fulfilled your needs the day before the FCPX launch, it still did the day after.

When you EOS/EOL a product, it's as good as the vendor walking in and uninstalling the product. That's just how businesses work. We need these support contracts.

If Apple had kept FCP7/FCS around and announced a later EOS/EOL for these products, giving firms time to make the transition to FCPX, they probably would've burned a few less bridges.

Serge88
Jun 28, 2011, 12:57 PM
Imagine Adobe releasing Photoshop CS6, a complete rewrite of the software, you cannot open all of your PSD file, your plugins don't work anymore, CMYK and lab are gone and Adobe doesn't understand why pro are complaining.


Sergio

tdar
Jun 28, 2011, 12:59 PM
LOL.

Very few "average consumers" will be purchasing $300 video editors.

VERY few. Can promise you that much.

And NO professionals should have ASSUMEed (you know what they say about that word) that a $300 video editor software would do what they need.

Apple is moving the product to a new market, as it fits the new way they see the world. Sorry Pro's they are not just into you any more.

robwormald
Jun 28, 2011, 01:00 PM
When you EOS/EOL a product, it's as good as the vendor walking in and uninstalling the product. That's just how businesses work. We need these support contracts.

If Apple had kept FCP7/FCS around and announced a later EOS/EOL for these products, giving firms time to make the transition to FCPX, they probably would've burned a few less bridges.
its no longer on sale, but support remains - http://store.apple.com/us/product/MA698 is still available.

purchasing a new, retail copy of FCS3 direct from apple is the only thing that's changed.

jdredline
Jun 28, 2011, 01:00 PM
Apple's "Final Cut Pro X" it's so bad we'll have to start calling it "Windows Vista."

bushido
Jun 28, 2011, 01:01 PM
i'm surprised apple isn't forced to offer the 14 weeks return policy on their apps in the EU tbh

BJMRamage
Jun 28, 2011, 01:02 PM
so what was all the Apple Buzz about FCPX?

I remember reading articles saying hollywood video guys were shocked and in awe...was it not a good shock and awe?


DEMO should be the way to go! I know I am hesitant about a $15 dollar purchase as they only really show a couple screens for some apps

Stella
Jun 28, 2011, 01:02 PM
Not necessarily. Can you really expect one man, who may or may not be very close to his death bed, to have his hands in everything?

If job's health is that bad then he should resign.

ender21
Jun 28, 2011, 01:02 PM
Just out of curiosity, not debating the quality of FCPX, but what would possess one of the two biggest media agencies in the UK to move to a 1.0 program immediately upon it's release?

I don't care who the software comes from, that's just not a good decision and disappointment is almost guaranteed.

I own an audio production company, one of the smallest in the US, and we would never in a million years jump onto a 1.0 release. When Pro Tools updates, we wait. When OS X updates, we wait. New features are exciting, but jeopardizing productivity on untested software is not a risk we're willing to take.

I can't believe so many professionals actually did this.

I'm not sure where the poster you quoted said they made a wholesale switchover. The inference I took from the post was that FCP is EOL for them, so they'll eventually (today, tomorrow, 24 months from now), be forced to switch to something else.

myca
Jun 28, 2011, 01:02 PM
And NO professionals should have ASSUMEed (you know what they say about that word) that a $300 video editor software would do what they need.

Apple is moving the product to a new market, as it fits the new way they see the world. Sorry Pro's they are not just into you any more.

Well seeing as they first demoed the software at a trade show in-front of a bunch of professional editors, it's pretty safe to assume that they were trying to market it to these pros, who would in turn be expecting a professional piece of software that suited their needs.

RobQuads
Jun 28, 2011, 01:03 PM
its no longer on sale, but support remains - http://store.apple.com/us/product/MA698 is still available.

purchasing a new, retail copy of FCS3 direct from apple is the only thing that's changed.

Which means your stuffed if you want to make any new hardware purchases.

Flaxxx
Jun 28, 2011, 01:05 PM
I don't use FCP but I have a question.

WHO ARE THE PEOPLE seeing overwhelming negative reviews from professionals on the App Store and are still buying it?

You'd think that the negative reviews would stop around the 100s or so. But no... nearly 600.

Is this how it works? :

"Oh yeah, I can see here that the vast majority of people hated this but I will spend $299 because it will work fine for me. I'm a professional!"

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 01:05 PM
its no longer on sale, but support remains - http://store.apple.com/us/product/MA698 is still available.

purchasing a new, retail copy of FCS3 direct from apple is the only thing that's changed.

Does this support include bug fixes/security updates ?

Purchasing extra seats is still a problem, a transition period, not unlike what OS9 got when OS X was released half-finished in its 10.0 form would've been better.

As I'm not an FCP/FCS user, I don't know all the details of what is missing/what got removed exactly. I just understand that the people dismissing any criticism as a "whine" are here to either stir the pot for fun (ie, baiting for answers, living under a bridge) or don't really understand the reality of running enterprise/business type IT.

lshaner
Jun 28, 2011, 01:06 PM
Yep... I got my refund a couple of days after the purchase. There were no questions asked.

NOW, I don't mind beta testing this new "iMovie HD 2011" (as I think it should be called)...since I am not being asked to pay for it while I beta test it.

BlindMellon
Jun 28, 2011, 01:12 PM
Must have been a shortage of unicorn dust on the assembly line...

itsokay
Jun 28, 2011, 01:13 PM
i dont know why, but I feel sad for those guys who gave up on the product early. playing around with fcpx, its so simple yet extensive, just like the mac and the objects connected to its operating system. you just have much time being attentive to what is before you, like pointing your attention to your woman as you look for her ticklish parts. but, oh well, whatever makes you happy guys. :)

robwormald
Jun 28, 2011, 01:15 PM
Does this support include bug fixes/security updates ?

Purchasing extra seats is still a problem, a transition period, not unlike what OS9 got when OS X was released half-finished in its 10.0 form would've been better.

As I'm not an FCP/FCS user, I don't know all the details of what is missing/what got removed exactly. I just understand that the people dismissing any criticism as a "whine" are here to either stir the pot for fun (ie, baiting for answers, living under a bridge) or don't really understand the reality of running enterprise/business type IT.

That's a valid question, but I think security updates / bug fixes are less scary on a product as mature as FCS3, as opposed to say OS X or Safari.

I agree with the general consensus that FCPX was positioned incorrectly, but there's hordes of editors complaining that "Apple has forgotten us!!!" and "Apple doesn't care about pro users anymore!!!" when in fact, Apple has just released by FAR the fastest video editing tool on the market.

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 01:18 PM
I don't think distance selling act holds with downloaded software but "Fit for purpose" does still hold so you could use that avenue.

Wow, I'd like to see someone use that in court for most commercial software.
Eg. Word doesn't do professional typography like LaTeX, is it unfit for purpose then?

Seems a good way to get laughed out of court.

robwormald
Jun 28, 2011, 01:19 PM
Which means your stuffed if you want to make any new hardware purchases.
I don't follow - i'm running FCS3 on a 10.7 beta install, and i've seen no issues so far. So it follows that an updated MacPro running 10.7 would run FCS3 no problem.

Plenty of online retailers will be happy to sell you FCS3 retail boxes I'm sure.

AppleDroid
Jun 28, 2011, 01:19 PM
exactly. all these so called "professionals" are acting like ubilos personally walked into their editing suites and uninstalled all their current copies of FCS. if FCS fulfilled your needs the day before the FCPX launch, it still did the day after.

Again you aren't thinking about STUDIOS who rely on this software. You can't buy the older suite since Apple EOL'd it so if they add editors to their company they are screwed because they can't get FCPX and have them work together.

I'll also repeat it isn't so much that FCPX was released as a paid Beta but more the pulling of the previous version off the market BEFORE the new one is up to professional standards.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 01:24 PM
That's a valid question, but I think security updates / bug fixes are less scary on a product as mature as FCS3, as opposed to say OS X or Safari.

I have 5 year old HP software I still regularly find bugs in, and with our contract, these bugs get patched. ;)

If a user can't migrate to FCP X for whatever reason and come up on a project where they unearth a bug in FCP7 that prevents them from completing the project, without support, they are SOL. Applecare is not the kind of support we're talking about here.

I agree with the general consensus that FCPX was positioned incorrectly, but there's hordes of editors complaining that "Apple has forgotten us!!!" and "Apple doesn't care about pro users anymore!!!" when in fact, Apple has just released by FAR the fastest video editing tool on the market.

If FCPX is was positioned incorrectly but is Apple's only editing tool right now, and before they had a tool that answered more needs, then I'd say those editors complaining that Apple has forgotten them aren't so far off now are they ? Where do they fit in the FCP X strategy ?

Remember, there's no more FCP7/FCS. Only FCP X.

Jelite
Jun 28, 2011, 01:26 PM
Are people too lazy to do a bit of research before they drop $300 on something?

Vienna44
Jun 28, 2011, 01:26 PM
i dont know why, but I feel sad for those guys who gave up on the product early. playing around with fcpx, its so simple yet extensive, just like the mac and the objects connected to its operating system. you just have much time being attentive to what is before you, like pointing your attention to your woman as you look for her ticklish parts. but, oh well, whatever makes you happy guys. :)

I agree -- it's amazing how many people relish the past and avoid every paradigm shift they face. As an old guy I remember the uproar by the "professionals" when the GUI based operating systems (Windows & Mac) were threatening DOS, when Windows Word was about to replace the DOS based Wordperfect, when FrontPage simplified web page development, when Apple chose to dump the inefficient Flash, etc. No one is forced to buy Final Cut Pro X - the current Final Cut will continue to be be viable for a decade in its current form. Change is a bitch but inevitable -- get over it.

anim8or
Jun 28, 2011, 01:27 PM
I find it all very strange. What professional goes out and buys a totally new rewrite of software on the first day of release? Then expects a refund? Stupid.

I don't think i have read any posts where a professional has intimated that they bought FCPX and immediately dumped FCP7...

This fact doesn't make the pill any easier to swallow that the new version simply doesnt cut the mustard.

wiz329
Jun 28, 2011, 01:28 PM
when did Apple become a halfass company? it always seems as though they have waited to role out new products until they were sure they were ... quality, not to mentioned, FINISHED.

iMaci7
Jun 28, 2011, 01:30 PM
There may be issues with Final Cut, but i wouldnt hold at value at all the stupid "1 star" reviews.

bushido
Jun 28, 2011, 01:31 PM
Are people too lazy to do a bit of research before they drop $300 on something?

well it's not like they have a choice to buy the previous edition anymore

jonnysods
Jun 28, 2011, 01:34 PM
Looks like everything really did just change in post.

newfoundglory
Jun 28, 2011, 01:35 PM
Steve is not going to be happy about this....

... But long-term I see updates and big improvements coming to FCP X

FCP X is a bit like version 1.0 of iPhone OS... anyone remember that... it was great but lacked several critical features.

KnightWRX
Jun 28, 2011, 01:35 PM
Are people too lazy to do a bit of research before they drop $300 on something?

Or for a lot of people, buying 1 seat was their research. Apple could've probably prevented a lot of backlash by offering trials to bigger customers through their representatives.

CIA
Jun 28, 2011, 01:38 PM
Final Cut Pro X has an amazingly powerful foundation for video editing.
Is it a true replacement for Final Cut Pro 7? No, and this was Apple's major blunder.

Had they released this software as simply Final Cut X, and left sales/support for the older Final Cut Studio in place, there wouldn't be the massive uproar about this.

I like the promise of what Final Cut Pro X offers, but I work in TV, and we deal with tape. A lot of tape. Someone said elsewhere "As long as the history channel exists, there will be a need for tape support". I don't like using tape, but when you need to archive hours and hours of footage on a stable long (years) term format, tape is great.

I'm sure over the next 2 years FCPX will mature into a better program for true professionals, but right now, the niche pro's aren't happy.. And the niche pro's are the ones who create witty clips that will lampoon this release, that consumers will laugh at, even if they don't know why.

The bottom line is this could have been partially avoided through better marketing and planning. Killing the FCS3 outright was a very poor choice. They literally dropped 30,000 pro users in hopes of getting 3,000,000 prosumers on board.

Yesterday I filed for a refund.


Finally to the people screaming "It's a 1.0 release! What did you expect?!"..... Yes, it's a 1.0 release, but it's a 1.0 release with 11 years of research behind it. It should have been very close to feature parity of the existing FCS7 at release, not super stripped out like it is. Screw the color correcting other new features and release a stable product that mimics it's predecessor closely. Then later add these new features in. I don't need stupid title creation cloud bubbles, I need multicam. Later on add the silly comic title tools, but multicam should be a part of the 1.0 release. Christ, FCPX 1.0 could have been exactly the same as final cut 7 with zero new features, but based on the new ultra fast core and people would have been ecstatic, then roll out new features in the future releases.

milo
Jun 28, 2011, 01:39 PM
It's not like Apple was hiding the fact that a lot of professional functionality had not yet been implemented.

Where exactly in Apple's product information is that information available? Where on their website does it make mention that features in the previous version aren't there?

For gawd sake, what were people expecting?? So someone has got to have something on the first day just cause it's new and then they whine to Apple about it???

People were expecting at least the same functionality and features as the previous version? I don't see why that's an unreasonable expectation. And I don't see why being a X.0 version should magically make any release immune from any and all criticism. Of course later versions will be better, but if it's not worth $299 yet, they shouldn't be selling it yet.


There is no way to buy shoes on the internet.

Off topic, but yeah there is. And they're doing extremely well.

milo
Jun 28, 2011, 01:46 PM
So I wonder if when they issue a refund, they are able to remove the (probably 1 star) review? If that's the case, could they be trying to buy their way out of a bad rating?

Thunderhawks
Jun 28, 2011, 01:47 PM
"Everything just changed in post.*"

*Not necessarily for the better. All Sales Final.

I wonder if people would be as upset if the name Final Cut, and thus expectations based on older versions, was not used for this software.
Apple's break with the functionality of the past versions, and not deficiencies in FCP X, seem to be the source of a lot of complaints.

No need to go "post"al.

It will all be fine in the end. Everybody's current stuff is working
with all the features, right?

So, why switch?

Don't buy for now, so they have to accelerate development !

DakotaGuy
Jun 28, 2011, 01:49 PM
How necessary is this product to Apple these days anyhow? Apple decided it was time to make this software more user friendly for the average prosumer and although that upsets the professionals Apple is just following the money. I bet there are a lot more prosumers to sell to then true professionals.

The consumer iDevice market is where the money is and spending a lot of time and money on the professional markets is better left to the PC hardware and software makers in this "post PC" industry.

ranReloaded
Jun 28, 2011, 01:52 PM
Maybe they should change the name to "Beta Cut pro"

Definitely NOT "Final"... perhaps not even GM:)

Intarweb
Jun 28, 2011, 01:52 PM
There is no way to buy shoes on the internet.

There are plenty of ways such as Dicks offering free returns on sneakers.

K42
Jun 28, 2011, 01:55 PM
Wow, I'd like to see someone use that in court for most commercial software.
Eg. Word doesn't do professional typography like LaTeX, is it unfit for purpose then?

Seems a good way to get laughed out of court.

Well, I don't know about laws in other countries, but in the Netherlands you have the right to a refunds if a product does not do what can reasonably be expected from it. Provided that the seller does not fix it in another way. This is also the case for software.

So yes, complaining about Word not doing LaTeX style typography will not get you very far.

But an "update" that lacks important features of its predecessor? I suspect that you have a good chance.

And, if that means that Apple's "contract" does not adhere to Dutch law, they might even get their entire contract declared invalid, not just the particular passage that deals with refunding and such.

bigjohn
Jun 28, 2011, 01:59 PM
MR should open up a thread just so everyone can get their feelings out.

i get the impression that most of the commenters hear feel like they haven't been heard on this topic.

lol.

CIA
Jun 28, 2011, 02:00 PM
How necessary is this product to Apple these days anyhow? Apple decided it was time to make this software more user friendly for the average consumer and although that upsets the professionals Apple is just following the money.

The consumer iDevice market is where the money is and spending a lot of time and money on the professional markets is better left to the PC hardware and software makers in this "post PC" industry.

That's kinda it. Apple isn't hurting these days. They could have released FCPX as something else and made a lot of people happy.. With $70+ billion in the bank they could still have made boat loads of cash off the consumers/prosumers with iMovie pro and all the idevices, but still poured money into R&D geared towards true film/broadcast professionals who still buy MacPro's. I can imagine that FCPX, on the rumored new 32 virtual core MacPro's coming in the next few months would be a mindblowing combination. To bad my planned purchase to replace my somewhat aging MacPro has been re thought since I won't be running FCPX for at least another 18months until it reaches somewhat close to feature parity of 7. Without tape support, I might never upgrade.. Then what are my long term options?

Apple is profitable enough to have made both pro's and prosumers happy. Pouring $200 million over the course of a year into developing a true pro version of Final Cut would have made next to no dent in the cash machine that Apple is these days.

benpatient
Jun 28, 2011, 02:00 PM
I defiantly think a Demo of the software would have been nice. Especially because it was missing so many features. What goof by Apple.

No need for defiance!

People sure are over-reacting here!

Sander
Jun 28, 2011, 02:06 PM
Eg. Word doesn't do professional typography like LaTeX, is it unfit for purpose then?

Well... since you asked: Yes, it is.

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 02:07 PM
But an "update" that lacks important features of its predecessor? I suspect that you have a good chance.

So all software sold in the Netherlands needs to support all the features of its predecessors? The courts must have their hands full deciding these cases!

I can think of dozens of examples. Think Windows Mobile 7 vs 6.5 for instance...

hayesk
Jun 28, 2011, 02:08 PM
It seems FCPX is to FCP7 what Quicktime X is to Quicktime 7 :eek:

Oh yeah, people are still lamenting the fact that they can't compress with Cinepak any more. :rolleyes:

ericmooreart
Jun 28, 2011, 02:08 PM
Apples arrogance has finally backfired. They are always so eager to tell people what they want and not listen to what people want. Perhaps this experience will humble them and they'll go back to the company they once were. The refund is a start.

hayesk
Jun 28, 2011, 02:09 PM
Personally, I would never buy $300 software that I wasn't sure I could return if I needed to. $1, $5, $10, sure, but nothing as expensive as $300.

Go buy an Adobe suite and see how far you get in returning it.

Of course, they do offer demos. Which the App Store should have.

jim2008
Jun 28, 2011, 02:10 PM
Apples arrogance has finally backfired. They are always so eager to tell people what they want and not listen to what people want. Perhaps this experience will humble them and they'll go back to the company they once were. The refund is a start.

Agree, but I doubt they will change a bit as long as Jobs still in control.

hayesk
Jun 28, 2011, 02:11 PM
Maybe they just shouldn't have released it until it was more feature complete. Problem Avoided.

The problem there is people were already starting to wonder if Apple was abandoning the product. In my opinion, Apple needs to be a little less secret in the pro lineup. There's no harm in saying "we are working to return feature X" to the product, when the competition already has feature X. I can see them being secretive about new features, but not old ones.

scottishwildcat
Jun 28, 2011, 02:13 PM
Consumers and refunds aside, this is a huge kick on the guts to Media agencies, I have had a very enjoyable time this week ruffling the feathers of some of the fan boys in the media editing team. They themselves acknowledge that they are going to have to dump Final Cut.
Why? What on earth has happened to Final Cut Pro 7 that it's become unsuitable overnight?

gkarris
Jun 28, 2011, 02:17 PM
I would like my money back for that atrocity called "Windows Millenium"... :eek:

and as far as Dell, I don't even want to go there... :eek:

scottishwildcat
Jun 28, 2011, 02:18 PM
With the App Store and DRM, Apple ought to be able to offer trial periods. Before laying down $300 (+$50 for Motion + $50 for Compressor) on a product which is getting a lot of negative reviews, it would be awfully nice to be able to try before I buy.
If you're anywhere near an Apple Store, I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to play with it as much as you like in there before buying anything. Not the same as trying it in your own environment, but you'd be able to spot any major gotchas.

caddisfly
Jun 28, 2011, 02:19 PM
After all I have read about this, I think this is mostly a failure of marketing, not product.

FCX is at least a code branch if not a completely different product than old FCP.

Kinda like pagemaker to indesign in the olden days

if they had come up with a new name or new marketing scheme, you wouldn't have had all the "auto-update" traffic followed quickly by shock and disappointment because it "...wasn't what I had before and its different"

there really doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the product...it is just a different paradigm and doesn't yet have all the pro-tools or pro-sumer tools that the older product have...but it appears that this is the future

THX1139
Jun 28, 2011, 02:19 PM
Just out of curiosity, not debating the quality of FCPX, but what would possess one of the two biggest media agencies in the UK to move to a 1.0 program immediately upon it's release?

I don't care who the software comes from, that's just not a good decision and disappointment is almost guaranteed.

I own an audio production company, one of the smallest in the US, and we would never in a million years jump onto a 1.0 release. When Pro Tools updates, we wait. When OS X updates, we wait. New features are exciting, but jeopardizing productivity on untested software is not a risk we're willing to take.

I can't believe so many professionals actually did this.

You don't understand the situation. I don't know of any professionals who dumped FCS and went to FCX. Even the original poster didn't say anything about migrating to FCX. What all the pros are saying is that with the lack of professional features in FCX, and that Apple has stopped updating and selling Final Cut 7, that the Final Cut Platform as it stands now is dead. That leaves them with thousands of dollars invested in equipment/training (millions at some places) and being forced to migrate to another NLE that meets their requirements. They can hold off for a short while, but Apple has made no time commitments to when the "fixes" are coming, or whether those fixes will allow them to affectively use FCX. It's a waiting game that most studios can't afford to play. Apple really screwed this up because they basically pulled the rug out from under all of their loyal professional users. How would you feel about Apple right now if you were the owner of a major editing studio and the software that you have relied on for the past decade suddenly went away?

Thunderhawks
Jun 28, 2011, 02:20 PM
Apples arrogance has finally backfired. They are always so eager to tell people what they want and not listen to what people want.

Henry Ford: If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse".

Apple became Apple, because they don't ask. They research!

I don't understand the uproar and whining.

When all your stuff works and there is a possibility to really upgrade in the sense that what I have is made easier, I would upgrade.

But, once I did my homework and a new version of anything doesn't do what I need, I wouldn't. And, what I have still works, no harm , no foul.

I'll keep checking out a little later if there is anything better.

Plenty of examples: Photostudio from Arcsoft., Quicken, Quickbooks

Not only Apple, but all developers should allow trial downloads for stuff that is rewritten from the ground up.

So far, whenever I read "from the ground up" it's cringe time.
Never works usually!

emulator
Jun 28, 2011, 02:25 PM
Are people too lazy to do a bit of research before they drop $300 on something?
They were assured it's magical.

faustfire
Jun 28, 2011, 02:25 PM
I agree -- it's amazing how many people relish the past and avoid every paradigm shift they face. As an old guy I remember the uproar by the "professionals" when the GUI based operating systems (Windows & Mac) were threatening DOS, when Windows Word was about to replace the DOS based Wordperfect, when FrontPage simplified web page development, when Apple chose to dump the inefficient Flash, etc. No one is forced to buy Final Cut Pro X - the current Final Cut will continue to be be viable for a decade in its current form. Change is a bitch but inevitable -- get over it.

What's really amazing is how many people seem to have an irrational need to offer an opinion when they they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

The uproar is not about editors having to learn the new FCP X interface, it is about Apple removing features that are a must have in a professional broadcast environment. These are not features that are the preferred way of doing things, but the only currently available way of doing things! An EDL is the only way I can get my project sent out for color correction, an OMF is the only way I can get my audio sent out to our audio house, an external broadcast monitor is the only way I can check the true quality of my project image, etc.

And Final Cut Pro will not be viable for "a decade in its current form." It has been falling behind the curve for years now, and many simply made due because they were led to believe that Apple was working on a viable professional next gen replacement for it.

franswa za
Jun 28, 2011, 02:26 PM
let's not be too hasty, judging...........

resilience shall prevail.........

:)

anim8or
Jun 28, 2011, 02:27 PM
But, once I did my homework and a new version of anything doesn't do what I need, I wouldn't. And, what I have still works, no harm , no foul.

What many people fail to realise is that what the professionals and the editing houses have does currently work, but for how much longer?

Apple has basically said that FCP7 will no longer be supported by EOL the suite.... in an industry that is in constant flux and new technologies emerging day by day, one simply cannot rely on an integral part of their workflow being allowed to stagnate... thus they have to look elsewhere for a replacement so they can continue to grow and evolve with the times.

THX1139
Jun 28, 2011, 02:27 PM
Why? What on earth has happened to Final Cut Pro 7 that it's become unsuitable overnight?

A successful business doesn't operate on a day to day basis. They have to forecast long term needs to handle upcoming projects, equipment, and hiring needs. How are they going to do that when the software that they rely on is no longer available (legally) and development has stopped? You think that FCX is going to be up to standards in the next month or two? How about by next year? Would you be willing to bet the success or failure of your business on that assumption? They still don't know if the new work paradigm that Apple is trying to sell them is going to work without spending thousands of dollars testing. Most studios are going to be rushing to Adobe and AVID and it will be a long time before Apple can get them back... if ever.

fred1
Jun 28, 2011, 02:33 PM
I heard the new upgrade of FCPX will have a "Request Refund" button, right next to the send to You-tube link.....

Blacklabel34
Jun 28, 2011, 02:33 PM
For some of us who do not know. What features were removed to make everyone upset? I'm still running version 5.0. I'm sure its outdated but it works fine for me.

DisMyMac
Jun 28, 2011, 02:37 PM
Wow you know some heads rolled over this one.

Steve Jobs can roll his own head then. If FCP X had been popular, he'd be given the credit. But now it's suddenly some un-named person(s) at Apple getting blamed.

:apple: = CULT

kingtj
Jun 28, 2011, 02:41 PM
Apple has ALWAYS been secretive and the type of company that says, "Trust us. We have years of experience giving you great things." When have they EVER really outlined a "roadmap" ahead of time?

Plenty of software developers have gotten VERY irate with Apple for this, including Adobe, but it's one of those things you have to accept if you want to develop for the platform. (Right now, they're removing Rosetta from Lion so anyone relying on that code gets to do a rewrite of their app, or see it no longer supported.)

When I hear the editing pros whining about this situation, I think it's more of the usual, really. (Musicians went ballistic when Apple decided to ditch firewire ports on some of the machines too. Remember that?)

FCP X hasn't even been out for more than about a WEEK now, and people are all worked up about it. Come on.... if you went with Apple for Final Cut in the first place, you should have been willing to accept that you might be kept "in the dark" for a while as they make changes. That's the "Apple way".


You don't understand the situation. I don't know of any professionals who dumped FCS and went to FCX. Even the original poster didn't say anything about migrating to FCX. What all the pros are saying is that with the lack of professional features in FCX, and that Apple has stopped updating and selling Final Cut 7, that the Final Cut Platform as it stands now is dead. That leaves them with thousands of dollars invested in equipment/training (millions at some places) and being forced to migrate to another NLE that meets their requirements. They can hold off for a short while, but Apple has made no time commitments to when the "fixes" are coming, or whether those fixes will allow them to affectively use FCX. It's a waiting game that most studios can't afford to play. Apple really screwed this up because they basically pulled the rug out from under all of their loyal professional users. How would you feel about Apple right now if you were the owner of a major editing studio and the software that you have relied on for the past decade suddenly went away?

andiwm2003
Jun 28, 2011, 02:44 PM
Apples arrogance has finally backfired. They are always so eager to tell people what they want and not listen to what people want. Perhaps this experience will humble them and they'll go back to the company they once were. The refund is a start.

Agree, but I doubt they will change a bit as long as Jobs still in control.

+1 so true. apple messed up quite a bit. imovie, mobileme, icloud, final cut, iphoto, trim commands, this entire locked down system.........

Are people too lazy to do a bit of research before they drop $300 on something?

with professional software you expect consitency to be a given. and there is no trial for final cut.

iSimx
Jun 28, 2011, 02:45 PM
Agree on the Demo option. It seems to be such a no-brainer for this type of software. I just finished, and bought my demo of HDR Efx Pro. I would not have tried or bought the software otherwise without a demo. It starts to be too expensive to risk a no-refund option.

I am impressed that they are offering a refund, especially knowing that news of the refund will (and has) spread like an Arizona fire.


Apple aren't offering a refund out of kindness. It's because they are receiving such bad press and ratings they have no choice but to at least refund..

Boneoh
Jun 28, 2011, 02:46 PM
I bought FCP X, Motion, and Compressor. I emailed support asking for a refund. Within 24 hours I had a reply that the refund was applied to my credit card.

Being honest, I immediately uninstalled these apps. The App Store no longer shows these apps in my Purchased apps. But it also removed Garage Band!

I followed the instructions in the best practices article to restore FCS back to their original location. But Compressor was a no-go. So I un-installed and am in the process of re-installing FCS.

This all seems too lame for Apple... :confused:

ericmooreart
Jun 28, 2011, 02:48 PM
Henry Ford: If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said "a faster horse".

Apple became Apple, because they don't ask. They research!


Its obvious Apple had no clue how pros used Final Cut. REAL research would have showed them that. They are often so busy trying to create the next great thing and make everyone think their way that they forget its not about them its about us, the consumer.

Had they marketed this as Final Cut Express X There would be none of this drama.

Apple has long got away with telling people what they want and smiling as they blindly follow. It doesn't work with the pros.

scottgroovez
Jun 28, 2011, 02:49 PM
Would love to be a fly on the FCPX dev walls right now :D

kingtj
Jun 28, 2011, 02:50 PM
#1, *some* of this will make its way into future updates. It pretty much has to, or else Apple is saying they're giving up marketing anything for the broadcast environment. (They could do that too, but wouldn't they simply market FCP X as "Final Cut Express X" or "iMovie Pro" if that was their intention? They haven't, which tells me they're trying to unify FCP and FC Express into a "one product fits all" replacement that's going to take some more work to fully flesh out.)

#2, Apple may feel that some of these current "needs" and "standards" are overdue for a change. It's clear that analog tape is a dinosaur. Most I.T. shops don't even do backups onto tape anymore, despite LTO and DLT still plugging along with incremental updates every so often. The broadcast industry is whining about FCP X only working in the digital realm and not supporting everything they want anymore for tape. To that, I say -- too bad, so sad. Your precious tape is going away before TOO much longer. Apple has their eye on where the ball is going, in this case.



The uproar is not about editors having to learn the new FCP X interface, it is about Apple removing features that are a must have in a professional broadcast environment. These are not features that are the preferred way of doing things, but the only currently available way of doing things! An EDL is the only way I can get my project sent out for color correction, an OMF is the only way I can get my audio sent out to our audio house, an external broadcast monitor is the only way I can check the true quality of my project image, etc.

Popeye206
Jun 28, 2011, 02:59 PM
Hummmmm.... Buy today... Complain in a week, get a refund and Final Cut Pro. :p

From the customer comments seems they cut too many pro features. Bummer.

EricNau
Jun 28, 2011, 03:03 PM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?
MobileMe, QuickTime X, iPhoto '09, iTunes 10 were all questionable "upgrades". It's a worrying trend.
I think they've spread themselves too thin. With so much iOS development for iPhone and iPad, and OS X, I suspect they've reassigned app developers to OS development.

I recently "upgraded" to the latest version of iPhoto. It's terribly buggy. There are major issues that are well documented in Apple's support community, which Apple has shown no interest in addressing (demonstrated by the fact that Apple has not resolved these issues in many, many months: more than should be necessary or reasonable).

I would request a refund, but my iPhoto library would no longer be readable by the previous version of iPhoto.

I've been disappointed with Apple's recent applications, to be frank.

Boneoh
Jun 28, 2011, 03:08 PM
You don't understand the situation. I don't know of any professionals who dumped FCS and went to FCX. Even the original poster didn't say anything about migrating to FCX. What all the pros are saying is that with the lack of professional features in FCX, and that Apple has stopped updating and selling Final Cut 7, that the Final Cut Platform as it stands now is dead. That leaves them with thousands of dollars invested in equipment/training (millions at some places) and being forced to migrate to another NLE that meets their requirements. They can hold off for a short while, but Apple has made no time commitments to when the "fixes" are coming, or whether those fixes will allow them to affectively use FCX. It's a waiting game that most studios can't afford to play. Apple really screwed this up because they basically pulled the rug out from under all of their loyal professional users. How would you feel about Apple right now if you were the owner of a major editing studio and the software that you have relied on for the past decade suddenly went away?

I agree. Apple seems to be using a few apologist bloggers in an attempt to quiet the angst.

Go check out the creative cow dot net forum for FPC X and see what the pros are saying...

mBox
Jun 28, 2011, 03:11 PM
I agree. Apple seems to be using a few apologist bloggers in an attempt to quiet the angst.

Go check out the creative cow dot net forum for FPC X and see what the pros are saying...Please do cause there is a FCPX Techniques section for the ones that want to learn :) I for one have nothing but positives for this new version. Like Ive stated before, Im using it to learn not to save lives :P

Thunderhawks
Jun 28, 2011, 03:12 PM
Would love to be a fly on the FCPX dev walls right now :D

Already decided that Steve will hold a press conference showing all the pros that they are holding it wrong!

That conference will be in front of the Cupertino city council, streamed over free WiFi for everybody.

Senator Al Franken has asked for a hearing and wants all products with the letter "X" in it banned, as "X" is an unknown and you basically don't know what you are buying.

Verizon will be selling FCP X in white without a contract.

ATT will sell FCP X with unlimited data plans.

Lodsys has sued Apple because they have a patent on refunds.

Samsung filed a motion to see the next release of FCP

Google just released an Android FCP X version with only the missing features.

Microsoft is coming out with Buena Vista Movies XP. Steve Ballmer's idea.

There just seems to be no end to this story.

ericmooreart
Jun 28, 2011, 03:15 PM
How necessary is this product to Apple these days anyhow? Apple decided it was time to make this software more user friendly for the average prosumer and although that upsets the professionals Apple is just following the money. I bet there are a lot more prosumers to sell to then true professionals.


My company has a site license for 50 copies of final cut pro suite at 1000 dollars a piece. Just about every employee has Final Cut suite at home. Just for my company that almost 100,000 dollars. Multiply that by the thousands of video production houses across the country. 10s of thousands around the world. Not small change.

Truffy
Jun 28, 2011, 03:16 PM
How necessary is this product to Apple these days anyhow? Apple decided it was time to make this software more user friendly for the average prosumer and although that upsets the professionals Apple is just following the money. I bet there are a lot more prosumers to sell to then true professionals.
Product features filters down. Products developed for professionals with high expectations enrich those lower down through the trickle effect. Once you lose the professionals where's the impetus to innovate? Except, that is, to add another dumb "export to [insert social network]" option?
If you're anywhere near an Apple Store, I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to play with it as much as you like in there before buying anything. Not the same as trying it in your own environment, but you'd be able to spot any major gotchas.
Not the same thing? It's not even in the same bloody postal district, let alone the same ball-park! :eek:

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 03:18 PM
I recently "upgraded" to the latest version of iPhoto. It's terribly buggy. There are major issues that are well documented in Apple's support community, which Apple has shown no interest in addressing (demonstrated by the fact that Apple has not resolved these issues in many, many months: more than should be necessary or reasonable).

I would request a refund, but my iPhoto library would no longer be readable by the previous version of iPhoto.

Oh please iPhoto costs $15, can you really get a better photo management package at that price? And is their support any better?

I bought Ligthroom for $300 and guess what, it also has bugs.

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 03:20 PM
My company has a site license for 50 copies of final cut pro suite at 1000 dollars a piece. Just about every employee has Final Cut suite at home. Just for my company that almost 100,000 dollars. Multiply that by the thousands of video production houses across the country. 10s of thousands around the world. Not small change.

How does 50 copies at 1000 dollars a piece turn into "almost" 100,000 dollars?

faustfire
Jun 28, 2011, 03:21 PM
#2, Apple may feel that some of these current "needs" and "standards" are overdue for a change. It's clear that analog tape is a dinosaur. Most I.T. shops don't even do backups onto tape anymore, despite LTO and DLT still plugging along with incremental updates every so often. The broadcast industry is whining about FCP X only working in the digital realm and not supporting everything they want anymore for tape. To that, I say -- too bad, so sad. Your precious tape is going away before TOO much longer. Apple has their eye on where the ball is going, in this case.

Every time you post you just look more and more clueless. The broadcast industry as a whole would love to go completely tapeless, but as it stands right now that is an impossibility. All new content from this day forward could be shot directly to digital files and you would still need to have backwards compatibility with tape.

The problem is not with editors, or post houses, but with our customers. Our customers currently have huge tape libraries that will need to be accessed. Tape libraries that they have no plans on digitizing themselves.

I am currently working on rebranding elements for the Pac12, elements that required mass amounts of past game footage from each school. Do you think all that footage came to us digitized on hard drives? Not a chance, a huge portion of it came to us on tape, miniDV, DVCPro, Betacam, HDCam,HDV, etc. The only format missing was one inch!

The other main holdout are the stations, a large portion of stations still request broadcast spots on Beta...BETA! Stations were already slow to upgrade equipment before internet video sapped them of a lot of their advertising profit, and they are in to condition to do so now. So output to tape is still a NEEDED feature. Trust me I would love to be able to drop every spot on an FTP or via DG but doesn't work that way.

Apple cannot simply snap its fingers and make all this legacy archive tape disappear. The need to access footage on tape on a near daily basis will be around for at least the next decade, and realistically for much longer.

cozmot
Jun 28, 2011, 03:22 PM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

They've got the heads in the iClouds.

BillyBobBongo
Jun 28, 2011, 03:22 PM
How does 50 copies at 1000 dollars a piece turn into "almost" 100,000 dollars?

X2 for the copies they have at home

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 03:29 PM
X2 for the copies they have at home

So with the new price and rules they'll only need to pay $15,000 now instead of $100,000.

I can see how the pros want this. Maybe there's a reason why it became so cheap? Oh wait...

zerofour
Jun 28, 2011, 03:30 PM
For some of us who do not know. What features were removed to make everyone upset? I'm still running version 5.0. I'm sure its outdated but it works fine for me.

Have a look at http://www.larryjordan.biz/goodies/blog.html as this has some useful info. Mainly problems seem to revolve around lack of FCP7 support, lack of XML, EDL, OMF support, the lack of support for tape / tape decks (only firewire enabled cams will work), no multicam support and the inability to do some 'pro' features that you could do in FCP7

EricNau
Jun 28, 2011, 03:31 PM
Oh please iPhoto costs $15, can you really get a better photo management package at that price? And is their support any better?

I bought Ligthroom for $300 and guess what, it also has bugs.
Of course all software has bugs, but the number and significance of said bugs is what really matters. I'll give you just two examples:

-I double click on an event, and it opens but reports "no pictures." I have to restart iPhoto to see my pictures. This happens about every fifth time I try to open an event.

-Faces won't allow me to confirm faces. I click confirm but nothing happens. Makes faces essentially unusable.

I've already attempted all troubleshooting steps I could find online. As I said, it's a known issue that affects some users. I don't find Apple's failure to address acceptable.

Plus, you're ignoring the fact that I had a well-functioning program, paid $15, and now many features don't work at all. I don't think you would be content either.

skellener
Jun 28, 2011, 03:32 PM
Will Lion too come with a load of missing features? Early adopters always end up getting burned one way or another. You basically pay to be beta testers.

That doesn't just apply to Apple btw.QTPro?? QTX is far from a pro tool. Most people I know still don't use QTX (It's an extremely weak video player) - they still use QTPro7. I'd like to see it enhanced with a Pro version that brings back Frame Counter, additional format support, accurate color space (like Tweak Software does).


Imagine Adobe releasing Photoshop CS6, a complete rewrite of the software, you cannot open all of your PSD file, your plugins don't work anymore, CMYK and lab are gone and Adobe doesn't understand why pro are complaining.


SergioExactly Serge.

mBox
Jun 28, 2011, 03:34 PM
QTPro?? QTX is far from a pro tool. Most people I know still don't use QTX (It's an extremely weak video player) - they still use QTPro7. I'd like to see it enhanced with a Pro version that brings back Frame Counter, additional format support, accurate color space (like Tweak Software does).well hold on there. Pros still use QT no matter what flavour. If you mean the player then yes its weak. But as far as the codec goes, its widely used from RED to Sony etc...

G4DP
Jun 28, 2011, 03:38 PM
Ok, Apple may have dropped the ball on this one, BUT! they have been quite honest stating it is not for prime-time just yet!


Well if it's not ready for prime time IT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN RELEASED SHOULD IT!

Bubba Satori
Jun 28, 2011, 03:40 PM
Bag of hobby editing hurt.

DakotaGuy
Jun 28, 2011, 03:44 PM
Product features filters down. Products developed for professionals with high expectations enrich those lower down through the trickle effect. Once you lose the professionals where's the impetus to innovate? Except, that is, to add another dumb "export to [insert social network]" option?

I understand what you are saying, but Steve Jobs believes that we have entered a post PC era and mobile devices with light programs is the future. Now I am not saying that professionals won't have a need for programs like Final Cut Pro in the future because they will, but it will be a small niche market that other software makers can fill.

In Jobs vision of the future most people will be using an iPhone or iPad to do their video editing while uploading everything to iCloud. In these cases programs will need to be lightweight and some features just won't be possible. Like it or not that is where Apple is headed. I have no doubt that other companies will fill the void left, however they will be left behind in a vintage PC era.

Now how does the fact that Final Cut Pro X has missing features and less user control go along with the idea that mobile devices are the future... Simple... Steve is just preparing consumers and prosumers for the future. There will always be a small professional market, but will be better left to other companies who don't want to play in the post PC era.

darthraige
Jun 28, 2011, 03:49 PM
Thank God I didn't pay for this pro app that should be called "iMovie Prosumer." Just deleted it. Final Cut Studio is still superior.

Bistroengine
Jun 28, 2011, 03:51 PM
I just made this because it made me laugh when I thought of it...

JesterJJZ
Jun 28, 2011, 03:53 PM
I can't believe so many professionals actually did this.

We weren't planning on integrating it into our workflows off the bat, that would be insane. Apple demoed so many cool features that we wanted to start learning it ASAP in our spare time. However Apple ONLY demoed new features and neglected to mention so much was mission. No one new so much was removed, cause well, removing important features wasn't something ANYONE expected in a professional editing app.

I got the program and quickly realized it wasn't something I'd ever use no matter how much they add to it. It was no longer Final Cut Pro. I got my refund no questions asked.

Blipp
Jun 28, 2011, 03:53 PM
Well if it's not ready for prime time IT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN RELEASED SHOULD IT!You're 100% correct but sadly it isn't up to the devs to decide that. I fully believe they knew they were releasing a gimped product but had to do it anyways. Hopefully they are working double time to get the improvements out the door.

I whole heartedly believe that products like Final Cut Studio were developed by people with a passion for their customers and a genuine interest in the needs of the pro market. I'd expect that if Apple corporate were dictating a mass focus shift in Final Cut from the pro to consumer market we'd be seeing talented devs jump ship to go work for other publishers like Adobe or Avid who are still developing pro level NLEs. I mean, why would someone who has years of developing top shelf NLEs demote themselves to developing iMovie Pro? Since this doesn't appear to be the case as of yet I'm putting my chips behind this being a botched launch to be blamed on Apple corporate and not on the FCP developers. I think (or hope) we'll see what FCPX was really supposed to be in a year's time or so.

MacAddict1978
Jun 28, 2011, 03:54 PM
I don't agree with this assessment. I don't believe they have shown a recent pattern of consistancy with releasing software not ready for prime time.

Clearly there have been some misteps with how theyh have handled FCP here. Not disputing that.

Concerning the hardware quality control, my feeling would be that you seem to be exaggerating the present and minimizing past, without adjusting for the increase in number of devices that apple produces now as opposed to say, 10 years ago.

As far as constantly pulling people from one team to another, as I understand it that is 100% by design, and one they'd been following for quite some time.

I can't comment on Lion, but I don't even know why you mentioned it in the first place, given it is not released.

Hmm. Well, considering how many Macs have been sold that have need multiple firmware updates to correct issues spanning every single product line... it's a safe bet to say these were not defects rolling off an assembly line. It is a demonstration of, "we have new machines with the latest and greatest innards ready to go, but we're still tweaking drivers and how the OS will work with these things... and we can shoot out a fix quickly." You're posting on a forum with many a threads and comments on these issues, so I'm not making them up. You just might not be aware or pay attention to those things. My last iMac was a real treat because the display would freeze all the time and the fans did not turn on because they heat sensors were crap. 5 firmware updates to that machine, including one for the keyboard because it had its own issues. This story spreads to many other models and years of releases.

Your other comment was kind of my point. Yes, that was how Apple used to handle things by pulling teams. Apple was much smaller when they had that philosophy, and they didn't have their hands into nearly as many products and pieces of software as they do today. You need to rethink your statement. I think of the old episode of "I Love Lucy" where she and Ethel are in the chocolate factory and the belt keeps speeding up... That's what Apple is doing, except they're adding more belts of chocolate, speeding it up, and leaving almost teh same number of people to try and grab the choclates off the belt. If you pull people from one belt to the next, then their belt is backing up. You either need to stop making so much chocolate, or have more people in the chocolate factory to keep up. Except apple added toffee, bubble gum, and cotton candy. Hokey, but applicable.

Davesc36
Jun 28, 2011, 03:59 PM
I have to say, the excuse of this being a rewrite that took as long as it did and be lacking the major features that made Final Cut Pro the great program that it has become in the industry is just unacceptable. To me there is no excuse for that unless they had programmers that have never used the previous versions. In my opinion, Apple seems to have focused all their attention on their portable devices and have put their pro devices in the "Hobby" department along with Apple TV. I only own a Mac because of Final Cut Pro and have absolutely loved it. I doubt I'll be able to afford the $5,000 system it will take to run the new version efficiently for a while anyway, so I'll stick with my reliable FCS2 version.

MacPhilosopher
Jun 28, 2011, 04:00 PM
It takes a different kind of person to be a first adopter. Seems like a whole bunch of people on here just don't get that. Give it another iteration and some real use and then we will know if this is a good update or bad update. What I have a hard time with is the vitriol in many of these comments. It's like the first time you realize your parents have lied to you about something. The shock that everything in the world is just not perfect. That said, I commented a couple of years back when major update changes were first rumored that I hoped that Apple wouldn't turn FCP into iMovie heavy. I will not be able to judge that until I use the app, and I won't do that until I can afford a new system to run it on. In the meantime, FCP studio is still running fine and doing great as an editing tool for my business.

JohMai
Jun 28, 2011, 04:03 PM
Avid's Media Composer 5.5 is a fully pro-level picture (video or film) editing program and sells for about $2500.00 Avid provides a fully functional, 30-day trial period for this software.

Adobe does the same for the latest Premiere Pro editing package.

Many other pro-level packages and/or expensive plug-ins are sold in a similar fashion.

Apple could easily have done this too.

myca
Jun 28, 2011, 04:03 PM
If Apple had approached this in a similar way that Adobe recently approach the new version of Audition (a total rewrite of the application) things might not seem so messy.

Here's what they did.

Early announcement that it would be released as a rewrite of a much loved piece of software.

They were honest and upfront that some features would not make it into the first version.

They offered a (I think about three month) public beta where users could try it out and communicate directly with the devs.

Upon release version 3 is still available to purchase, so people can still buy licences if they need the features that are not yet implemented.

And voila, a pretty successful launch of Pro grade application. Granted some PC users are a little annoyed that some of their more favoured esoteric features are not yet included, but for us mac users it's finally a decent wave editor released on the platform.

Just goes to show that Apple need help with the Pro market, or they should just leave it and say so, because if Adobe are doing it better it says quite a lot.

HelveticaRoman
Jun 28, 2011, 04:07 PM
Does anyone know how distance-selling regs (in the UK at least) works (if at all) with downloadable content?

You get a statutory 7 days cooling off period with all physical objects.

If the product is not fit for purpose, no terms and conditions can shield the vendor. Or the credit card company with which you paid for it.

tacoplenty
Jun 28, 2011, 04:09 PM
Bottom line is you don't abandon your customers' library of projects by not allow for the import FCP 7 files.

Apple made FCP legendary by creating a swiss army knife application for editors of all skill levels, projects of many levels of complexity or simplicity.

Bet the coen brothers don't cut their next movie on FCPX!

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 04:11 PM
Avid's Media Composer 5.5 is a fully pro-level picture (video or film) editing program and sells for about $2500.00 Avid provides a fully functional, 30-day trial period for this software.

Adobe does the same for the latest Premiere Pro editing package.

Many other pro-level packages and/or expensive plug-ins are sold in a similar fashion.

Apple could easily have done this too.

Yes they could, but can you really compare a $2500 product to a $300 one?

There are plugins for Avid more expensive than the whole Final Cut Pro X, and you don't get a trial period on those.

sined13
Jun 28, 2011, 04:11 PM
...I don't understand the uproar and whining.

When all your stuff works and there is a possibility to really upgrade in the sense that what I have is made easier, I would upgrade...


For those who have missed it, here's a good (lengthy, but an eye-opener) rundown on what many of the problems are and why the pros are whining:

http://podcasts.creativecow.net/final-cut-studio-podcast/why-we-cant-use-final-cut-pro-x-at-our-companies

The real pros (people making a living and have a lot invested) have genuine/valid reasons to be pissy. The non-pro crowd shouldn't really have much to complain about.

Doug Young
Jun 28, 2011, 04:11 PM
I haven't yet read any of the comments here, but it seems like others can bring out incomplete products :cough:blackberry:cough:xoom:cough:, but only Apple get slated for it

As a Mac user and lightroom/aperture/photoshop/ipad/iMovie/.mac/mobileme user I've been here before

Lack of Curves and Actions in Lightroom or Aperture (now un-needed thanks to targeted adjustments)
Lack of Floppy drive and SCSI connector on iMacs (now unneeded thanks to USB, FW, Thunderbolt)
Lack of usb port on iPads (now unneeded thanks to iCloud)
Lack of free option on .mac (now sort of back with iCloud)
Lack of iDisk etc on iCloud (tick, tock, tick, tock...)

Get over it as follows

Use what you have been using
Download a demo (where available, read and experiment)

It just goes to show these professionals are just as premature as regular people - the really smart ones are watching and waiting while they carry on as they did last week

B. Hunter
Jun 28, 2011, 04:13 PM
I have to say, the excuse of this being a rewrite that took as long as it did and be lacking the major features that made Final Cut Pro the great program that it has become in the industry is just unacceptable. To me there is no excuse for that unless they had programmers that have never used the previous versions. In my opinion, Apple seems to have focused all their attention on their portable devices and have put their pro devices in the "Hobby" department along with Apple TV.....


Your opinion is fact. Jobs himself said many moons ago how the FCS team was assigned to IOS development for a period of time. FCPX probably would have been released last year if not for that.

robeddie
Jun 28, 2011, 04:17 PM
I honestly think that Final Cut Pro X is the best thing that Apple has created in a very long time. It is just amazing to me how powerful and fluid it is to edit with it. It is more amazing to me the amount of backlash it has received.

There are countless people who have blogged/written about what is wrong with Final Cut Pro X.

You would not be so 'baffled' by the backlash if you took the time to read some of these ... many of which go into exhaustive detail.

K42
Jun 28, 2011, 04:20 PM
So all software sold in the Netherlands needs to support all the features of its predecessors? The courts must have their hands full deciding these cases!

I can think of dozens of examples. Think Windows Mobile 7 vs 6.5 for instance...

Well, no, it is not like that.

First of all, it matters a lot if the seller is clear about missing features. If I go to the app store however, Apple is just talking about the things it "adds". That is sort of misleading.

And secondly, disputes will normally get settled. Not in the last place because of these laws.

And thirdly, it is far less common to go to court in the Netherlands for these kinds of things than it is in the USA. One can also loose a case, and then (part of) the costs of the trial are for you. Class actions suits are (still) not as easy to arrange I think. So there are some obstacles. And then the question mainly becomes whether your damage outweighs the risk.

JohMai
Jun 28, 2011, 04:22 PM
Yes they could, but can you really compare a $2500 product to a $300 one?

There are plugins for Avid more expensive than the whole Final Cut Pro X, and you don't get a trial period on those.

My point was that Avid and Adobe offer free time limited demo's of very expensive programs and seem to have that process under control while Apple essentially is demanding that you buy FCPX to "try it out".

On an earlier post, someone mentioned the cool way Adobe introduced "Audition" to the Mac. They did the same with LightRoom, by the way.

Doug Young
Jun 28, 2011, 04:25 PM
As a photographer with an interest but not much experience in Final Cut Pro my landscape just changed

Apple has realised that there is a huge market of people out there who are getting on fine with iMovie, would love some of the features of FCP, but are scared silly of it's interface.

I am even put off by FCP Express because I can't invest the time to learn it

Sounds like I already know how to use FCPX
I hadn't realised how big a rewrite this was. (perhaps this reaction was their plan all along - what better way to get people like me to finally get off the fence than to make it both affordable and easy and make sure I knew about it)

I'm going to buy it:D

robeddie
Jun 28, 2011, 04:26 PM
And NO professionals should have ASSUMEed (you know what they say about that word) that a $300 video editor software would do what they need.

Apple is moving the product to a new market, as it fits the new way they see the world. Sorry Pro's they are not just into you any more.

FCS, which contained FIVE high-end professional applications, cost $999.

So, $300 for a SINGLE one of those applications is NOT really a drop in price.

This notion that FCP suddenly got cheaper is not really accurate.

a.gomez
Jun 28, 2011, 04:29 PM
They need a Demo

Microsoft does it with Office (60 days) and so does Adobe (30 days) hell even Quark gives you 30 days.

lshaner
Jun 28, 2011, 04:31 PM
Avid's Media Composer 5.5 is a fully pro-level picture (video or film) editing program and sells for about $2500.00 Avid provides a fully functional, 30-day trial period for this software.

Adobe does the same for the latest Premiere Pro editing package.

Many other pro-level packages and/or expensive plug-ins are sold in a similar fashion.

Apple could easily have done this too.

Really, a demo version would have been nice.

But even more helpful would have been for Apple to be forthright about the fact that FCPx doesn't read any FCP7 content -- that alone would have been enough deterrent for most to wait until some future version of FCPx that can at least convert/migrate the old content into the new format with as much of the timeline as possible left in tact.

For the 1.0 release of FCPx I would have even settled for simply collecting all the media files from my FCS projects into one place under FCPx control and at least maintaining the cut in / cut out markers so that at a minimum I would have a shred of a working project that I could then further re-tweak as needed.

Of course I can continue to use FCS for old content, but the point is I reuse a lot of old content and I really need to be able to carry things forward when developing new content.
I at least need my old media files to be gathered together and copied for me.
That much would be the MINIMUM level of "backward compatibility" that FCPx should have included and we didn't get ANYTHING like that.

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 04:32 PM
First of all, it matters a lot if the seller is clear about missing features. If I go to the app store however, Apple is just talking about the things it "adds". That is sort of misleading.

Umm that's not what I read in the app store page. Nowhere does Apple state you'll have all the previous features and more.

They actually say it's all been redesigned from the ground up, and on the webpage goes further to say "everything just changed in post".

Maybe people presumed that Apple would keep all the previous features and rushed into it, but that's far from being legally misleading and doubt that would hold up in court.

odedia
Jun 28, 2011, 04:33 PM
There are countless people who have blogged/written about what is wrong with Final Cut Pro X.

You would not be so 'baffled' by the backlash if you took the time to read some of these ... many of which go into exhaustive detail.

I have read them all, lack of OMF/EDL/XML, FCP7 import, output to tape etc.

These are all important features for legacy editing. For modern editing, you don't need any of that. You record digital, you edit digital, you use flash storage, you output to file and do whatever is needed with it. OMF is a problem that is still relevant but 3rd parties will soon handle.

Bottom line - keep your FCP7 application for legacy projects, use the new FCPX for modern projects. Have the best of both worlds until FCPX is improved. The performance and new feature set is worth it. Just syncing clips to secondary audio is worth 300$ alone.

PatrickCocoa
Jun 28, 2011, 04:36 PM
Wow you know some heads rolled over this one.

Can you say Job Opening?

Randy Ubillos, the driving force behind Final Cut Pro X, will probably get a promotion and a big bonus. I believe that the top levels at Apple look on the controversy as proof that they've done something right, that they are dragging the reluctant masses into the glorious future.

iLilana
Jun 28, 2011, 04:39 PM
film makers should wait. They will fix everything.

spiffers
Jun 28, 2011, 04:42 PM
To the guys telling us to stick with FCP, yeah, I can still use it like I used it yesterday. But yesterday FCP was barely hanging in there, crashing, rendering, crashing renders, pizza 'o death. It works, but it works like a old beat up VW Beetle firing on just three pistons. So we where promised this new wonder, that just changed everything in post. Yeah, it changed crap into ****. A golden turd is still a turd!
I can still use my old FCP, and for now I have to, but I cant buy another new FCP editing suite, Im stuck with what I have, unless someone is willing to sell their license to me.
I really really hate Adobe CS, but maybe thats gonna work out better than iMovie X. Or maybe its gonna be Avid.
Looks to me Apple is ditching the pro customers. They just want the iSheep.

gkpm
Jun 28, 2011, 04:43 PM
FCS, which contained FIVE high-end professional applications, cost $999.

So, $300 for a SINGLE one of those applications is NOT really a drop in price.

This notion that FCP suddenly got cheaper is not really accurate.

Well I didn't need the rest so FCP was still $999 for me.

Now it's $300 and I got it for ~ $150 using a supermarket promo in the UK that exchanged £90 worth of shopping points for £180 of iTunes vouchers.

So I'm really over the moon with it's performance/price. It's ridiculously cheaper.

Even the exchange price in £ is amazing, they don't add the VAT.

robeddie
Jun 28, 2011, 04:44 PM
film makers should wait. They will fix everything.

So after a decade of releases that were better, stronger, more capable than the last ... after 10 YEARS ... now an 'update' comes along that we have to wait, and hope, that they restore the functionality of the version that they no longer sell.

DisMyMac
Jun 28, 2011, 04:45 PM
Cut the price in half, rename it iMovie Pro, and keep supporting version 7. EVERYONE will be happy. Only Apple's pride will hurt slightly. (So there is really no chance of it.)

myca
Jun 28, 2011, 04:49 PM
I have read them all, lack of OMF/EDL/XML, FCP7 import, output to tape etc.

These are all important features for legacy editing. For modern editing, you don't need any of that. You record digital, you edit digital, you use flash storage, you output to file and do whatever is needed with it. OMF is a problem that is still relevant but 3rd parties will soon handle.

Bottom line - keep your FCP7 application for legacy projects, use the new FCPX for modern projects. Have the best of both worlds until FCPX is improved. The performance and new feature set is worth it. Just syncing clips to secondary audio is worth 300$ alone.

Absolute nonsense.

So if you're making a film and need some foley what are you gonna do? Need proper colour correction? Need to do a full 5.1 mix? A stereo or Mono mix for TV? Send stuff off for visual FX and/or composites?

The fact is that this looks like an amazing piece of software for a single user who does it all, which is how some people work, once you reach a certain level and need to have multiple editors, output to Pro-Tools for foley/scoring/mixing and many other reasons you need to import export this software becomes absolutely useless.

Eye4Desyn
Jun 28, 2011, 04:50 PM
It's good to see that Apple is issuing refunds to those users not kosher with FCP X being up to snuff for professional/personal use. However, I can say that having used iMovie quite extensively for the last eight months and having dabbled in FCE for the last two, FCP X has been (for me) a god-send.

On another note, I've been slightly disappointed with FCE and what I felt to be a somewhat cumbersome workflow. FCP X brings the ease of use of iMovie with the power and wherewithal (some yet to be released) of Final Cut as most of you have known it to be and yet know it to be. For me, it was a no-brainer at the $300 asking price. I've wanted more user customizable features/functionality in a NLE than what iMovie is capable of offering - but not at the expense of a steep learning curve and of course time. Trying to learn any of the older Final Cut applications video track, audio track hierarchy was a bit daunting. Other than very simple tasks in FCE, workflow there just didn't seem natural or that intuitive. IDK - for the hard-core guys and gals out there that have been using FCP for years, I understand this 1.0 release for FCP X has been a huge let-down, but for those of us just entering the fray of very-capable NLE software (not to mention coming from iMovie) I think it's the perfect transition. I'll be keeping my copy of FCP X and expanding from here.

JHankwitz
Jun 28, 2011, 04:50 PM
I wonder how many of the 562 people giving the software a single star actually spent time learning all that it has to offer. I find it hard to believe that anyone could take the time needed to learn such complex software in so short a time and be able to provide an objective review.

weaverra
Jun 28, 2011, 04:53 PM
It's $299 for crying out loud! Not bad even for being "stripped" down.

faustfire
Jun 28, 2011, 04:56 PM
Please...

I wonder how many of the 562 people giving the software a single star actually spent time learning all that it has to offer. I find it hard to believe that anyone could take the time needed to learn such complex software in so short a time and be able to provide an objective review.

...stop...

It's $299 for crying out loud! Not bad even for being "stripped" down.

PLEASE.

H. Flower
Jun 28, 2011, 04:57 PM
I have read them all, lack of OMF/EDL/XML, FCP7 import, output to tape etc.

These are all important features for legacy editing. For modern editing, you don't need any of that. You record digital, you edit digital, you use flash storage, you output to file and do whatever is needed with it. OMF is a problem that is still relevant but 3rd parties will soon handle.

If you work with footage older than a few years, tape in/out is mandatory in modern editing.

definitive
Jun 28, 2011, 04:57 PM
they should just issue refunds to everyone, and give the app out for free, and start working on a new one from scratch. this one is a failure.

farleysmaster
Jun 28, 2011, 04:59 PM
There is no way to buy shoes on the internet. Software is like that, too. With advanced internet distribution methods like the App Store, there MUST be a policy equivalent to "they simply don't fit."I just bought my wedding shoes on the internet...

coolfactor
Jun 28, 2011, 04:59 PM
Personally, I would never buy $300 software that I wasn't sure I could return if I needed to. $1, $5, $10, sure, but nothing as expensive as $300.

Anybody demanding a refund didn't do their homework. They are lucky that Apple is refunding their purchase. Let this be a lesson to them. Software updates aren't always going to be linear upgrades.

Gomff
Jun 28, 2011, 05:00 PM
I wonder how many of the 562 people giving the software a single star actually spent time learning all that it has to offer. I find it hard to believe that anyone could take the time needed to learn such complex software in so short a time and be able to provide an objective review.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would spend $300 on an app just to give it one star out of spite or haste. When all's said and done, the rating system is representative of customer satisfaction, whatever that may be. Clearly, there's not a lot of satisfaction here.....That's what counts.

coolfactor
Jun 28, 2011, 05:00 PM
they should just issue refunds to everyone, and give the app out for free, and start working on a new one from scratch. this one is a failure.

What an ignorant comment. What is your basis of fact?

coolfactor
Jun 28, 2011, 05:02 PM
Please...

...stop...

PLEASE.

So what is your take on the matter? Did you demand a refund?

JHankwitz
Jun 28, 2011, 05:03 PM
I find it interesting that anyone with an Apple account can post a software review rating without owning or ever seeing a copy of the software. This means that any nay-sayer can post a single star review without ever seeing the product. That's crazy Apple, get a clue and demand ownership and proof of extensive use before accepting reviews.

robeddie
Jun 28, 2011, 05:07 PM
I find it interesting that anyone with an Apple account can post a software review rating without owning or ever seeing a copy of the software. This means that any nay-sayer can post a single star review without ever seeing the product. That's crazy Apple, get a clue and demand ownership and proof of extensive use before accepting reviews.

Wow.

While you were busy spending time not understanding the problems many editors have with FCPX, you were also busy not understanding how the app rating system works.

You are a very busy person!

Swift
Jun 28, 2011, 05:08 PM
I think they made a PR blunder. The essential code is amazing, and most of the deficiencies will be filled in 6 months to a year, either by Apple or third parties. In the meantime, the new programs do not erase your FCPS3. You can use them both for a time. I think most people are going to be going back to X after a while.

I think the updating of Quicktime is well along in this software, and we will see Lion's Quicktime soon enough. My own favorite thing is Quicktime Text. I hope that the latest version of Quicktime will have that ability, plus. It can use scc captions and the high-def variety, but I do subtitles!

JHankwitz
Jun 28, 2011, 05:08 PM
So what is your take on the matter? Did you demand a refund?

Faustfire very likely doesn't own or hasn't even seen the software.

Gomff
Jun 28, 2011, 05:08 PM
I find it interesting that anyone with an Apple account can post a software review rating without owning or ever seeing a copy of the software. This means that any nay-sayer can post a single star review without ever seeing the product. That's crazy Apple, get a clue and demand ownership and proof of extensive use before accepting reviews.

Attempting to rate this application without having first purchased it results in the following message:

"To rate this app, you must have purchased it from the Mac App Store".

Curiously, there are now only 215 ratings for some reason. Does that mean that over 1000 customers were refunded and also had their ratings removed?

Either way, if it was an attempt to massage the ratings, it's only improved by half a star.

Mr. Gates
Jun 28, 2011, 05:10 PM
I personally believe that like the Mac Users such as as in for Final Cut Pro X

are some people who dont have maps and their education was in South Africa and the Iraq and everywhere such as, , ....\

I believe our education of Final cut Pro over here, such as, in the US should help the US or Help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we should be able to build up our future, ...for it


http://www.tashadoestulsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/missteensouthcarolina.jpg

faustfire
Jun 28, 2011, 05:10 PM
So what is your take on the matter? Did you demand a refund?

My take is that people need to stop adding their 2 cents when they don't take the time to understand even the most basic reasons why people are upset about this whole situation.

It has nothing to to with having to relearn anything, or the price, it is about missing essential features.

tmroper
Jun 28, 2011, 05:13 PM
Part of the concern is that there are reports from beta testers that Final Cut Sutdio 2's installer won't work under Lion. Maybe that'll be fixed for the realse? Who knows. It's the uncertainly, among other things, that has people upset.

faustfire
Jun 28, 2011, 05:14 PM
Faustfire very likely doesn't own or hasn't even seen the software.

You are wrong on that count.

I assume you don't own it though, as you don't seem to have a handle on how the app store operates.

Meicyn
Jun 28, 2011, 05:17 PM
If Apple drops the price to $100, I'll bite!

lilnyc
Jun 28, 2011, 05:18 PM
Wow you know some heads rolled over this one.

Can you say Job Opening?

Hahaha!! Good one. And true probably. Somebody's in a California board room with their head down, I imagine.

MagnusVonMagnum
Jun 28, 2011, 05:20 PM
hmmm..

I wonder if Apple is heading downhill with their software now?

Sadly, you don't need to wonder. In terms of Pro hardware and software, they're clearly running as fast as they can from that market, yet seem to want to keep the name "Pro" on their products. Apple is fast becoming a consumer gadget company, nothing more. Macs and all their related software are going to hell in hand-basket or being turned into "deskpads" with Lion. Steve is so obsessed with iOS products he doesn't even know what a real desktop is like anymore, let alone the proper software to do professional things with it. I think he's been away from Pixar for far too long. :(


I think Apple is spreading themselves to thin. They are constantly pulling people from one team to assist another.

Reading comments of people using Lion, it still sounds like it's not ready for the masses. (I'm going to wait till at least the first point update.) I think they need to hire more people!

I've been saying that for years now. I get pegged an Apple hater by the fanboys on here, but sometimes the truth needs to be told. Steve is a megalomaniac that needs too much control to ever hire enough people to get all these different things done RIGHT. He needs to let go of the reigns of some products and let others handle them (preferably ones that actually care about "truck" computers still, for example) and then he can spend the last years of his life playing fairy godfather for the iPhone with 3 new phones a year with the one at the start of the year losing software support by the end of the year.... :rolleyes:

Mr. Gates
Jun 28, 2011, 05:22 PM
If Apple drops the price to $100, I'll bite!

No software should cast more than $100 IMHO

I think the masses will pay for a good product at a good price.

You'll make the money you want if you make the product accessible to more

lilnyc
Jun 28, 2011, 05:25 PM
"Everything just changed in post.*"

*Not necessarily for the better. All Sales Final.

I wonder if people would be as upset if the name Final Cut, and thus expectations based on older versions, was not used for this software.
Apple's break with the functionality of the past versions, and not deficiencies in FCP X, seem to be the source of a lot of complaints.

Bingo. If they named it iMovie Pro, FCPgate could have been avoided.

LethalWolfe
Jun 28, 2011, 05:25 PM
Yes they could, but can you really compare a $2500 product to a $300 one?
Why not? FCP and Avid have been going to head-to-head in a lot of markets for years. AFAIK Apple has not said they are leaving the professional space so why should version 10 of FCP get a free pass?


There are plugins for Avid more expensive than the whole Final Cut Pro X, and you don't get a trial period on those.
The only way currently to get a old FCP project into FCP X is to use a $500 plugin. Now that's ridiculous.


I have read them all, lack of OMF/EDL/XML, FCP7 import, output to tape etc.

These are all important features for legacy editing. For modern editing, you don't need any of that. You record digital, you edit digital, you use flash storage, you output to file and do whatever is needed with it. OMF is a problem that is still relevant but 3rd parties will soon handle.
Minor pet peeve here but digital has been a routine part of post and production for the last 10-15 years. Tapless is a different story and version 10 of FCP unfortunately has lost compatibility w/some professional tapeless cameras. And tape, while past it's heyday, is still relevant and will be for years.


Bottom line - keep your FCP7 application for legacy projects, use the new FCPX for modern projects. Have the best of both worlds until FCPX is improved. The performance and new feature set is worth it. Just syncing clips to secondary audio is worth 300$ alone.
PluralEyes will do it for half the price.


Lethal

lilnyc
Jun 28, 2011, 05:32 PM
I'm happy to see them refunding, but sorry to see that its reputation shot so soon.

I thought FCPX/iMovie Pro was a joke until I started a Ripple Training tutorial, in which the instructor speaks to both amateurs and FCP "legacy" users. He says things like, "You may be used to this feature from FCP, but in X, this is how it works now." And often, those new features were QUITE impressive to me. Huge improvements that I would love to use.

But right now, I can't imagine any professional production houses using it, so learning it at this point is mute. Also, pros are hesitant to upgrade anyway, but now I can't imagine pros using it for a looooong time even AFTER it's up to par because of this disastrous premature release.