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RichardI
Jul 14, 2011, 07:57 PM
Can someone point me to a complete list of features that are being removed in Lion? I have heard that Front Row is being removed (naturally one of the current features I use all the time) and I'd like to see some detail on what else I would be giving up. I already know that a lot of effort has gone into new features in Lion that I care nothing about, but that won't affect me - removal of features will.
Thanks,

Rich :cool:



ECUpirate44
Jul 14, 2011, 08:01 PM
Rosetta is not supported in lion.

Madd the Sane
Jul 14, 2011, 09:36 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

There's also not a pre-installed Java runtime. But you can just download it when you run a Java app.

Nuckinfuts
Jul 14, 2011, 09:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X_Lion -- A complete list of additions and subtractions

rmbrown09
Jul 14, 2011, 10:16 PM
looks like the only other dropped thing was front row. Why would they drop that?

BlaqkAudio
Jul 14, 2011, 10:28 PM
looks like the only other dropped thing was front row. Why would they drop that?
The Apple TV superseded Front Row.

iLog.Genius
Jul 14, 2011, 11:10 PM
The Apple TV superseded Front Row.

I would understand that if AppleTV was a huge success but it isn't so I don't know why they would remove it for those who don't have AppleTV and probably will never.

bozzykid
Jul 14, 2011, 11:18 PM
I would understand that if AppleTV was a huge success but it isn't so I don't know why they would remove it for those who don't have AppleTV and probably will never.

The ATV2 is a much bigger success than Front Row ever was. And now that ATV runs iOS, Apple isn't going to waste development resources duplicating many of the features on another platform.

RichardI
Jul 15, 2011, 06:16 AM
Thanks for the pointer, Nuck. Looks like it's just Rosetta and Front Row basically. I have a whole bunch of DVD's that I have copied to my HD so that I can sit back and watch them using Front Row and the Apple remote that came with my iMac :o . Guess the laugh's on me.

Rich :cool:

roadbloc
Jul 15, 2011, 06:31 AM
http://i.imgur.com/aGLaK.png

talkingfuture
Jul 15, 2011, 06:35 AM
I was disappointed by the removal of Front Row. My theory is that as it was basically a full screen interface for iTunes that was designed for the Apple remote and Lion has an emphasis on full screen apps that we may see a front row like full screen mode for iTunes.

haravikk
Jul 15, 2011, 06:38 AM
Damn, I seem to have missed the removal of Front Row! That's annoying as my main screen is an HDTV, and it's good for viewing video since I tend to favour downloadable copies on my hard-drive. Apple TV is nice and all, but when my computer is connected directly into my HDTV already, then why should I need one?

Same with the Mac Mini; with it's small size, HDMI connection, and wireless it's just as usable in a living room setup as the Apple TV, but you can use it as a computer. So Mac Minis will be losing Front Row as well?

Mr.C
Jul 15, 2011, 06:40 AM
There are alternatives to Front Row like Plex. In fact Plex is a lot more full featured then Front Row in my opinion. I prefer to use Flex rather then Front Row.

haravikk
Jul 15, 2011, 06:49 AM
I'll give Plex a try, but Front Row was always enough for just playing stuff through my computer. Anyone know if simply copying the Front Row application from Snow Leopard will be enough to keep using it?

Mr.C
Jul 15, 2011, 06:58 AM
By the way Plex also supports the Apple remote but if I recall correctly you have to download some utility to make it work.

Sodner
Jul 15, 2011, 07:13 AM
Maybe they want to do some mods and sell Front Row on the app store? Darn I'm going to miss that too.

Jerome Morrow
Jul 15, 2011, 07:17 AM
The Apple TV superseded Front Row.

Apple TV is Apple TV and Front Row is Front Row i'm sick of this. Some one said a stupid thing and now half of the forum is running with it.

haravikk
Jul 15, 2011, 07:18 AM
Maybe they want to do some mods and sell Front Row on the app store? Darn I'm going to miss that too.
I hope so, considering that the Apple TV version is presumably coded in Objective-C, and running on a version of iOS, then it should be trivial to maintain an OS X version for App Store release or bundling with (at the very least) Mac Minis.

I mean, I love it as it's one of those apps that Apple has just managed to get right; while it might lack some features, everything about it just works as you'd expect, unlike some other media menus out there that do silly things like stop music playback just because you're using the menu to see what else there is, and it's all visually attractive.

Cougarcat
Jul 15, 2011, 08:23 AM
Apple TV is Apple TV and Front Row is Front Row i'm sick of this. Some one said a stupid thing and now half of the forum is running with it.

You might not like it, but it's the only thing that explains Apple's reasons for killing it. AppleTV provides the better experience in their eyes, so why continue to maintain FrontRow?

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that Apple knew the Mac Mini was bring used as a HTPC as they stuck a HDMI port on there. Maybe they'll include the AppleTV software in the next update. Either that or axe the port.

I'll give Plex a try, but Front Row was always enough for just playing stuff through my computer. Anyone know if simply copying the Front Row application from Snow Leopard will be enough to keep using it?

I believe it works with iTunes 10.3, but the 10.5 beta kills it.

Back on topic: iSync was also removed. It works if you bring it over, though.

Jerome Morrow
Jul 15, 2011, 08:30 AM
You might not like it, but it's the only thing that explains Apple's reasons for killing it. AppleTV provides the better experience in their eyes, so why continue to maintain FrontRow?

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that Apple knew the Mac Mini was bring used as a HTPC as they stuck a HDMI port on there. Maybe they'll include the AppleTV software in the next update. Either that or axe the port.


This is BS. A solution to a software on a Mac is a 99 USD device with a 600-700 USD LCD TV? Yeah quite a nice "solution".

Front Row is just a nice fullscreen UI to my iTunes media that's all and there is hardly anything to maintain. It's the way it is since Leopard.

How hard is it to just recompile damn thing and keep it there?

I have an Apple TV 2G with Plex istalled on it. These are two different things.

PeterHolbrook
Jul 15, 2011, 08:34 AM
I'm surprised by the number of forum members that are still unaware of the fact the Front Row DOES work on Lion. You must copy files and subfolders from four SL folders to your Lion installation, but, once that's done, it works flawlessly (even with Command-Esc and the remote). For those interested, look for a relevant post of mine in another thread.

Cougarcat
Jul 15, 2011, 08:35 AM
This is BS. A solution to a software on a Mac is a 99 USD device with a 600-700 USD LCD TV? Yeah quite a nice "solution".

Front Row is just a nice fullscreen UI to my iTunes media that's all and there is hardly anything to maintain. It's the way it is since Leopard.

How hard is it to just recompile damn thing and keep it there?



I agree, I hope they release AppleTV software for the mac. But I doubt they will.

bushbabywas
Jul 15, 2011, 08:45 AM
http://blog.boastr.net/?p=2548

With BetterTouchTool you can remap the buttons on your remote to do a whole lot of other things.

Media player Movist (http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/27642/movist) supports full-screen navigation, so provides a possible alternative to Front Row's video playing capabilities. Obviously no music, trailers or photos, but still. It also supports a wider range of codecs and can play subtitles, so it has some advantages. And in combination with BetterTouchTool you can use it as if it were Front Row (i.e. set it to open up in full screen navigation with the menu button). It's also a lot faster to load.

DannySmurf
Jul 15, 2011, 08:52 AM
I hope so, considering that the Apple TV version is presumably coded in Objective-C, and running on a version of iOS, then it should be trivial to maintain an OS X version for App Store release...

:confused: OK, this is off-topic, but your screwy logic demands an answer...

The Apple TV software and Front Row are different applications, that do different things, with different purposes and functions that exist on different operating systems with different APIs, running on completely different hardware. The fact that they MAY be (actually, probably are) written in the same language does not make it "trivial" to turn one into the other. The only thing they have in common is that they both play media, which is probably the tiniest part of their code.

talmy
Jul 15, 2011, 09:16 AM
More things lost (not mentioned here before):


Ability to hold down alphabetic keys and have them repeat
Support of second (or third...) monitors diminished with new Full Screen mode and new Spaces
Spaces can no longer be set up on rectangular grid
Reduced functionality and accessibility of Application Expose
Probably new systems will not come with a reinstall DVD (yet to be seen)
There are reports of reduced battery life and greater memory footprint (loss of some available RAM for applications).
Lion Server is missing many services that were in Snow Leopard Server and some services have been reduced in features.

roadbloc
Jul 15, 2011, 09:55 AM
More things lost (not mentioned here before):


Ability to hold down alphabetic keys and have them repeat
Support of second (or third...) monitors diminished with new Full Screen mode and new Spaces
Spaces can no longer be set up on rectangular grid
Reduced functionality and accessibility of Application Expose
Probably new systems will not come with a reinstall DVD (yet to be seen)
There are reports of reduced battery life and greater memory footprint (loss of some available RAM for applications).
Lion Server is missing many services that were in Snow Leopard Server and some services have been reduced in features.


I fear these may be the deal breakers for many people looking to upgrade.

DannySmurf
Jul 15, 2011, 10:17 AM
I fear these may be the deal breakers for many people looking to upgrade.

I don't think so.

Whether multiple monitors are "diminished" in this release is a perspective thing. The behaviour in Lion will matter to some people; it's hardly universal, and I'd even go so far as to say that it's not an issue for "many" people. Just a vocal minority. Multiple monitor setups are only typical in places like this, where power users congregate. The unwashed masses (generally) don't even know that's possible, or at best, use a single (external) monitor with their laptop.

Ditto reduced battery life. I'm not seeing any such thing. Neither are lots of other people. Battery life mostly depends on usage. This has not changed in Lion. As for memory footprint... I've seen lots of whining about what Activity Monitor says (usually coupled with either a misunderstanding about what its displays actually mean, or an install of Flash, which will reduce the life of any system), but so far nothing concrete (i.e., an app that someone couldn't run, or a system actually running out of memory and being unable to run something). Granted, the volume of whining may dissuade some people from upgrading.

The server bit may be a deal breaker for some. But I'd counter that with... it's a $50 upgrade. No one should be expecting enterprise-class software for that price.

talmy
Jul 15, 2011, 10:35 AM
I don't think so.


In every case it's the "power user" who is losing something. It seems to be a consistent theme in almost every move Apple has made in the past few years (basically since the iPhone made its appearance). The only nod to power users I've seen is Thunderbolt.

BlaqkAudio
Jul 15, 2011, 11:51 AM
Apple TV is Apple TV and Front Row is Front Row i'm sick of this. Some one said a stupid thing and now half of the forum is running with it.
Go take a look at the history of Front Row and Apple TV. The original OS for the Apple TV was based off of Front Row along with new features. When Leopard was released, Front Row 2 reincorporated the new features introduced with the Apple TV. While Apple TV has seen updates, Front Row hasn't. I don't get how people can say that ATV isn't an evolution of Front Row.

admanimal
Jul 15, 2011, 11:57 AM
More things lost (not mentioned here before):


Reduced functionality and accessibility of Application Expose


I swipe down with 4 fingers on my Magic Trackpad and I see all of the frontmost application's windows. What is missing and inaccessible about that?

Dorv
Jul 15, 2011, 11:58 AM
Thanks for the pointer, Nuck. Looks like it's just Rosetta and Front Row basically. I have a whole bunch of DVD's that I have copied to my HD so that I can sit back and watch them using Front Row and the Apple remote that came with my iMac :o . Guess the laugh's on me.

Rich :cool:

There are some very cool options out there for you instead of Front Row for that type of application.

Plex is my favorite, but Boxee seems to be the more popular choice these days.

Jerome Morrow
Jul 15, 2011, 12:01 PM
I don't get how people can say that ATV isn't an evolution of Front Row.

Maybe it is, still not a reason to axe it in Lion.

CodeBreaker
Jul 15, 2011, 12:05 PM
One more: No more 2 finger zooming in Finder's icon view/CoverFlow.

talmy
Jul 15, 2011, 12:16 PM
I swipe down with 4 fingers on my Magic Trackpad and I see all of the frontmost application's windows. What is missing and inaccessible about that?

If you are using a mouse, you can no longer just hold the mouse button down on the dock icon to see all the application windows. (Doesn't have to be frontmost app either.) And although I haven't verified it I've heard that minimized (hidden) windows don't show in Lion's Application Expose.

Jerome Morrow
Jul 15, 2011, 12:20 PM
If you are using a mouse, you can no longer just hold the mouse button down on the dock icon to see all the application windows. (Doesn't have to be frontmost app either.) And although I haven't verified it I've heard that minimized (hidden) windows don't show in Lion's Application Expose.

They show up if you double tap the icon in the Dock.

talmy
Jul 15, 2011, 12:25 PM
Another one I forgot -- if you use Quick Look you used to be able to hit the arrow keys to move between items (handy for folders of images). Now you have to click back on the finder window and use the arrow keys from there.

Of course, on the other hand, the Quick Look has become more powerful, much more like the Preview Application. But we always had the Preview Application to use when we needed the extra power.

One change that hasn't happened is QuickTime X still doesn't have the functionality of QuickTime 7 Pro. How long will we need to keep QuickTime 7 Pro around and how long will Apple support it?

talmy
Jul 15, 2011, 12:27 PM
They show up if you double tap the icon in the Dock.

Thanks. I'll have to check that out. A double tap is potentially faster than the press and hold, so this could be an improvement.

BlaqkAudio
Jul 15, 2011, 12:48 PM
Maybe it is, still not a reason to axe it in Lion.
Front Row hasn't had an update in 2+ years. I don't think Apple cares about it anymore now that they have the ATV Take Two

eah2119
Jul 16, 2011, 06:14 PM
I have snow leopard installed on my Mac and plan on installing Lion on it (when it's finally released). I bought my Mac with flash player already on it. Does my Mac automatically update the flash player with system updates? Furthermore, would I have to reinstall flash player on my machine when I install Lion? Will I have to manually update flash player with Lion installed?

mrapplegate
Jul 16, 2011, 06:19 PM
I have snow leopard installed on my Mac and plan on installing Lion on it (when it's finally released). I bought my Mac with flash player already on it. Does my Mac automatically update the flash player with system updates? Furthermore, would I have to reinstall flash player on my machine when I install Lion? Will I have to manually update flash player with Lion installed?

Adobe flash ( version 10.3.181.26 ) now has their own preferences pane, and updates by itself.

OneMike
Jul 16, 2011, 06:33 PM
^ checks for updates by itself. Kind of an annoying process.

Click check now button takes you to http://www.adobe.com/software/flash/about/

Then have to click "Player Download Center," which takes you to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/otherversions/

Then have to select your operating system and version. Then download, close browsers, install.. (that's safari. if you use firefox at least it takes you to the direct download page).

Would be nice if it were more automated or straight forward at least.

mrapplegate
Jul 16, 2011, 06:42 PM
^ checks for updates by itself. Kind of an annoying process.

Click check now button takes you to http://www.adobe.com/software/flash/about/

Then have to click "Player Download Center," which takes you to http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/otherversions/

Then have to select your operating system and version. Then download, close browsers, install.. (that's safari. if you use firefox at least it takes you to the direct download page).

Would be nice if it were more automated or straight forward at least.

Funny. I have had it update twice by itself. All it does is download a DMG file, but that's progress, at least it is now a preference pane, not a flash based controller on Adobe's website. They need to work on the manual check now I guess.

Hugh
Jul 16, 2011, 06:45 PM
Another one I forgot -- if you use Quick Look you used to be able to hit the arrow keys to move between items (handy for folders of images). Now you have to click back on the finder window and use the arrow keys from there.

Of course, on the other hand, the Quick Look has become more powerful, much more like the Preview Application. But we always had the Preview Application to use when we needed the extra power.

One change that hasn't happened is QuickTime X still doesn't have the functionality of QuickTime 7 Pro. How long will we need to keep QuickTime 7 Pro around and how long will Apple support it?

You can still install QuickTime 7 Pro in Lion? I figured that Apple moved all those functions to QuickTime X. I wonder if this means QuickTime X is doing all the QuickTime video on webpages?

*LTD*
Jul 16, 2011, 06:47 PM
If you are using a mouse, you can no longer just hold the mouse button down on the dock icon to see all the application windows. (Doesn't have to be frontmost app either.) And although I haven't verified it I've heard that minimized (hidden) windows don't show in Lion's Application Expose.

They do show up in Application Exposť, when you swipe down with four fingers. At least they do for me in Safari.

funkahdafi
Jul 16, 2011, 07:42 PM
By the way Plex also supports the Apple remote but if I recall correctly you have to download some utility to make it work.

it works out of the box.

iGrouch
Jul 24, 2011, 01:11 AM
In every case it's the "power user" who is losing something. It seems to be a consistent theme in almost every move Apple has made in the past few years (basically since the iPhone made its appearance). The only nod to power users I've seen is Thunderbolt.

Have to agree. In my experience of having used every version of OS X Tiger 10.4.11 has been the most stable and reliable version of the OS. That 10.4.11 update really optimized Tiger over the earlier versions on 10.4. Tiger may not have had all the bells an whistles that the OS has now but the attention to detail was felt when you used it. When the Leopards appeared (and the iPhone) little things stopped working or were removed.

I am sure that Lion will improve with updates but I leave you with this. Tiger 10.4.11 still boots and shutdown quicker on my PowerMac G4 than Lion or any of the Leopards did on my MacPro. Tiger is slower in other respects compared to the newer versions, but it really felt that it worked well for what it did.

Tootles
Jul 24, 2011, 11:38 AM
Contextual menu:
The contextual menu function has been changed to the point that, if you're using a laptop such as the 11" MBA (or maybe any of the others too?), it no longer exists as such. The contextual menu was a way to get around the lack a second button on the pointing device. Now at least one extra step is involved to get the contextual menu to come up. If you try to put a second finger down without first lifting the one doing the pointing, it either doesn't work or is awkward and uncomfortable. The way that the contextual menu was done before Lion made a lot more sense. I think it could exist without interfering with the Lion gestures so, I hope they bring it back.

Quicktime Player:
The AV Controls has been removed from Quicktime Player. I used this to make changes to playback tempo and/or pitch. Until the AV Controls is brought back, I'll have to find an application that does these functions.

Also in Quicktime Player, the buttons which were for moving the playback status instantly to beginning and end have been removed. If the media is in the middle of playback, how can you restart back to the beginning, without having to physically scrub the status back?

Tom8
Jul 24, 2011, 11:52 AM
Battery Life.
Lion has savaged my MBP battery, even though it's health is displayed as 97%

talmy
Jul 24, 2011, 05:30 PM
Contextual menu:
The contextual menu function has been changed to the point that, if you're using a laptop such as the 11" MBA (or maybe any of the others too?), it no longer exists as such. The contextual menu was a way to get around the lack a second button on the pointing device. Now at least one extra step is involved to get the contextual menu to come up. If you try to put a second finger down without first lifting the one doing the pointing, it either doesn't work or is awkward and uncomfortable. The way that the contextual menu was done before Lion made a lot more sense. I think it could exist without interfering with the Lion gestures so, I hope they bring it back.

I'm baffled by what you are saying. On both my MacBook and Magic Mouse the context menu is brought up in EXACTLY the same way in Lion as it was in Snow Leopard:

1. Trackpad: Put second finder down and click.
2. Mouse: Right click

It isn't necessary to lift the first finger from the trackpad after positioning.

Sensamic
Jul 24, 2011, 06:15 PM
The feature "Save As..." is also lost.

I consider versions a little bit a mess. I dont want to have multiple documents in the background being saved since I wont used them ever again.

How can I enable or show the expose on Lion using my magic mouse? I cant do the four finger gestures. Any help?

talmy
Jul 24, 2011, 11:27 PM
The feature "Save As..." is also lost.
Do a 'Duplicate" then a "Save" or close the window of the duplicate.


I consider versions a little bit a mess. I dont want to have multiple documents in the background being saved since I wont used them ever again.

They should take little space since only the differences are saved. If you copy them to some archival storage and then delete the originals, the versions are not saved. If you delete the files (since you won't be using them again) the versions are also deleted. Of course, Time Machine will be saving some older versions if you use it.

How can I enable or show the expose on Lion using my magic mouse? I cant do the four finger gestures. Any help?

Exposť is now part of Mission Control. You can access it with a two finger double tap. Application Exposť can be reached with a two finger double tap over the Dock icon of the app you are interested in.

You can also get BetterTouchTool if you want other possibilities

Tootles
Jul 25, 2011, 01:20 AM
Contextual menu:
The contextual menu function has been changed to the point that, if you're using a laptop such as the 11" MBA (or maybe any of the others too?), it no longer exists as such. The contextual menu was a way to get around the lack a second button on the pointing device. Now at least one extra step is involved to get the contextual menu to come up. If you try to put a second finger down without first lifting the one doing the pointing, it either doesn't work or is awkward and uncomfortable. The way that the contextual menu was done before Lion made a lot more sense. I think it could exist without interfering with the Lion gestures so, I hope they bring it back.
I'm baffled by what you are saying. On both my MacBook and Magic Mouse the context menu is brought up in EXACTLY the same way in Lion as it was in Snow Leopard:

1. Trackpad: Put second finder down and click.
2. Mouse: Right click

It isn't necessary to lift the first finger from the trackpad after positioning.

Oh but but often (more often than not, it seems, for me) it is necessary to lift the first finger after positioning. When the finger doing the pointing is close enough to the top edge of the trackpad, that the second finger falls outside the realm of the sensor (which is still a physical part of the trackpad), no contextual menu comes up. So then I have to point where I want, then lift up my finger without the pointer moving, reposition the finger to the middle of the trackpad, then hold it there while I put the second finger down, then hold them both there while I get my thumb in the proper place. Through all that, my fingers are feeling like they could cramp up. It's nowhere near as smooth or fluid as the one-finger contextual menu was.