Tiger: Not at all exciting.

[johnnowak]

You know, I was thinking... why are we so excited about Tiger anyway? I thought I'd go down the list of new features highlighted here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/


Spotlight. Now at first, I was quite excited about this. The reason is that I love Quicksilver (http://quicksilver.blacktree.com/). However, I quickly began to think: If I already have Quicksilver, why do I need this? I cannot think of an occasion where I would want to use it. When was the last time you ever thought, "Darn, I wish I could find all the documents on my hard drive with the word 'Paris' in them?" On rare occasion, context searching can be useful, but even OS 9 had this. The Spotlight integration in system preferences is needless. How often do you really ponder which pane a setting is in? I know I've never had any trouble locating anything. As for the metadata stuff, it may be useful on a very rare occasion, but even then it will only work with certain types of files, namely Photoshop documents and MS Office documents (besides the obvious Apple-related documents). For all other programs, it is useless. And yes, it can read metadata from mp3s and such, but iTunes is already better for this sort of thing. All in all, Spotlight is one of Tiger's best new features, and it is fairly boring and only marginally useful. Be honest with yourself -- Will this really substantially improve your computing experience?
Dashboard. This is nothing more than a gimmick. How often to you really need to have a special screen come up with fancy faux-analog clocks? How often do you need to plan your flights instantly through an oversimplified interface? How often do you need sticky notes that are just too important to make with the Stickies application? As someone who drooled over Konfabulator, I can say that after you use it, you realize it is largely a waste of your time. It is a very rare occasion that it is not easier to just open a bookmark via Quicksilver to do whatever I want in a normal browser window. And even if you just love this feature, so what -- It is already available via Konfabulator! I can honestly say that I feel I will enjoy this for a few days, and then end up disabling it.
Safari RSS. There are already a number of great RSS readers/tickers out there. The fact that this is the only major thing Apple added to Safari is just sad. If not for Firefox's un-maclike interface, it would easily be a better browser. Hell, you can already get RSS integration in Firefox if you want to, which is a fast, popular, proper Gecko-based browser.
Mail. As many people here know, Apple Mail is a sad application. It is slow. It spasms when you lose your internet connection. And now in Tiger, it is hideous. Alright, perhaps not hideous, but it certainly doesn't look like the rest of OS X. Yes, it now has Spotlight features, but I can't think of anything that I can't currently accomplish with a normal mail filter. Other mail programs already have these so-called "smart" folders as well.
iChat. The video conferencing is nice. However, it only works (and works well) if everyone is using iChat. Often, this is not the case. As for the IM side of things, it is just pathetic. No tabs (which if you are talking to 5+ people at once, you really do need as otherwise you have windows all over). Barely any options. No built-in log browser. Etc etc. Adium is a much better client all around, and other IM clients allow you to use more than the AOL network. Many people here who do serious IMing are already using something besides iChat.
Automator. This is nice stuff, but it has a serious limitation: It is only good if it already has actions built in for what you want to do. Now I will admit that this is one of the most impressive things about OS X. It is bringing some pipe-like functionality into the GUI realm. However, if you really need to get down and dirty, a shell script is going to be more flexible and less reliant on built-in actions. For many of the more common tasks (like hauling down all the images on a webpage and renaming them), there are already freeware apps available. Once again, this is nice, and it is probably the best part of Tiger. However, most likely you will not use it more than once every month or so. To be honest, I can't really think of an instance where I'd want to use it. Perhaps this is because I am not a huge iLife person. Besides, this is only going to work with apps that have built-in actions and such for Automator. Most apps will not, which means that it is worthless if you want to do something involving one of those apps. It is nice in an idealistic sort of way, but I doubt it will prove to be too useful.
VoiceOver. If you need this, you need this. If you don't, you don't.
Parental controls. Same thing.
.Mac Sync. I'm sure as hell not paying Apple $100 a year when I can get 4GB of space and 100GB monthly bandwidth for $69 a year from hasweb.com, along with a *ton* of extra features and one-click install forums, mailing lists, etc etc. Hence, this is useless to me.
Quicktime. The new technology is nice. Too bad Apple refuses to support Linux.


Now, there are also a lot of things Apple fails to mention. Such as how the finder is a clunky piece of junk. (If you don't think it is, go back and use OS 9. It was much cleaner and more elegant, although it lacked a column view). As many would agree, the Finder is crap. The FTP integration is crap. Window settings recall when they feel like it. Folders from other users and websites override your default settings without a care (thanks to .DS_Store crap). Giant metal toolbars take up valuable screen space. Turn them off, and certain folders will just ignore your settings anyway. Hell, browse the package contents of a bundle, and it will ignore them completely. Mail is still sad. iChat is still sad for IMing. Safari is only useful because of its integration. You still need Tinkertool to do basic things like seeing invisible files. Etc etc etc. Personally, I am not impressed. Personally, I'm hoping Gnome gets more polished. It already has a better file browser than OS X. All it needs now is more UI consistency amongst its apps and better panels. Not to mention -- It doesn't cost $129 every year!

[johnnowak]

And honestly, I'm not trolling. What I am looking forward to the most is Dashboard... and that's sad if you think about it.

[john1123]

i guess it's different for everyone. some people (and when looking at the daily 'tiger comes tomorrow - here is a clue!!!!' threads many people) are actually looking forward to 10.4.

while i personally find most if not all new features in tiger interesting to say the least, i totally agree with you on the finder. If you really want things to change you might want to give apple your feedback instead of telling us things we already know.

oh and here is the finder suggestions thread: [URL]http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=119322[?URL]

[iindigo]

johnnowak, I must say, you're wrong there buddy. I'm running Tiger at the moment, and there are TONS of little minor features all over the place that make a world of difference, it's really nice. Also, a LOT has been improved under the hood, way more than Apple might have you to believe. I'd estimate at least 70%-80% increase in speed from Panther overall, and about a 120% increase in speed on Safari's part - like one Tiger review article said, browsing live pages in Safari is now so fast it feels like you're browsing cache.

The Finder is no longer the huge, slow, clunky beast it used to be in Panther, as it has been made more compact, sped up a lot, and just improved a lot in general. A nice little extra is that now the Finder can open .bz files.

iChat is improved in many ways people have been hoping, with features such as built-in iTunes song for status, and support of MSN, ICQ, Yahoo, and more through Jabber.

Quicktime Player has been rewritten from scratch and is now a Cocoa app, and is now a much lighter-feeling and faster that the Carbon Quicktime Player in Panther.

iCal has numerous improvements, in fact I can't list them all here.

Mail is much faster and fluent, it finally feels complete.

Spotlight is extremely fast, it's really beyond what most people can imagine. I've used QuickSilver extensively in Panther, and I must say Quicksilver is no Spotlight replacement.

I could go on and on... A lot has changed. Feel free to IM me, I'd like talk some more about what's new.

[thequicksilver]

I made a similar post a couple of weeks back based on a short experience with a beta version of it. Suffice to say, our opinions don't differ very much - I don't see what's so exciting about it either, and can't help but feel that there's a certain level of fanboyism coming into play - I don't see any new features in Tiger which will make the average Windows user (ie the target audience for a Mac mini) suddenly think 'my God, I have to get this'.

I'll add a disclaimer in here though that some of the stuff we likely won't see the potential of for a good while - like when Apple released the SDK for Safari back in 2003. We've seen a good slew of apps making great use of this, and I'm sure it will be the same with Spotlight, Automator, and Core Image/Video. This will be the key to Tiger's wider appeal, I fancy.

And another Hasweb user - I'm impressed. :)

[Soulstorm]

Tho most sad thing about you is that you fail to see what other features Tiger will include.

Much cleaner codebase. That means that many more developers will be able to optimize their programs for Tiger

Better performance into opengl demanding applications (not only games but proffessional programs also).

And many more enhancements which would take me too long to analyze here.
Your mistake is that you see only those things that are noticeable from the first sight in Tiger. But the things you mention are not the essence of this upgrade. The essence lies into the OS that has been rewritten and optimized to work 70% faster into th finder even onb low end machines, end into the implementation of CoreImage and CoreVideo, which as CoreAudio did, will be a valuable asset for companies that wish to write video and image editing for Mac.

Look, the same thing happened with the upgrade from 10.2 to 10.3. Everyone expected just some neew features, and what they got was basically a new system, wich ran at least 50% with better performance and offered some substantial features which they were not mentioned into Apple's main site.

And finder doesn't suck. It just needs improvements, but it doesn't suck, it has tons of important features that make your life easier, (expose for instance), that you cannot find anywhere else.

Maybe you should wait for Tiger to come out and then you could speak for Tiger having a more objective opinion.

[iindigo]

Tho most sad thing about you is that you fail to see what other features Tiger will include.

Much cleaner codebase. That means that many more developers will be able to optimize their programs for Tiger

Better performance into opengl demanding applications (not only games but proffessional programs also).

And many more enhancements which would take me too long to analyze here.
Your mistake is that you see only those things that are noticeable from the first sight in Tiger. But the things you mention are not the essence of this upgrade. The essence lies into the OS that has been rewritten and optimized to work 70% faster into th finder even onb low end machines, end into the implementation of CoreImage and CoreVideo, which as CoreAudio did, will be a valuable asset for companies that wish to write video and image editing for Mac.

Look, the same thing happened with the upgrade from 10.2 to 10.3. Everyone expected just some neew features, and what they got was basically a new system, wich ran at least 50% with better performance and offered some substantial features which they were not mentioned into Apple's main site.

And finder doesn't suck. It just needs improvements, but it doesn't suck, it has tons of important features that make your life easier, (expose for instance), that you cannot find anywhere else.

Maybe you should wait for Tiger to come out and then you could speak for Tiger having a more objective opinion.

I agree. With all the new frameworks Tiger is just bursting with potential for awesomely cool applications.

[Applespider]

If you don't think Tiger is going to be useful to you, then don't buy it.

I use Quicksilver at the moment and love it. It's convinced me that I want Spotlight more - for apps/bookmarks I never go near the Finder; but I don't think Quicksilver is too good at the document/image stuff unless you know exactly what you called it. Being able to access my documents/images as quickly as I currently access apps will be wonderful. It's not so much the 'search because I can't remember where I put them' as the 'search rather than trawl through 4 layers of folders to get to it'

Dashboard - depends on the widgets you use how useful it will be. Again, I thought it would be more useful before having Quicksilver to launch those barely used apps - Calculator/Stickies. But I like the idea of having them all one keystroke away - I like having my weather there rather than launching a bookmark to my weather or having it in the menu bar. I'd like having the translator there rather than buried in Sherlock or bookmarking Altavista. I may not use Dashboard every day but I'll use it several times a week.

Mail - I've never had a problem with; perhaps I'm just lucky. I have 5,000 messages in mine at the moment over 4 accounts and it's never thrown a wobbly with or without web access. The only time I'd describe it as 'slow' is when someone's sent me something with a few GB of pictures attached when I have to wait a few seconds for them to display. Its current search capabilities are faster than anything else I've used.

Automator - It's probably more useful for those working who regularly do the same tasks. While yes, you could write a script to do things, there are a lot of us who would take longer to write a script/ are too daunted to write one than we'd save in doing it. Put that functionality in a GUI and chances are we'll have a go.

I agree wholeheartedly with the .Mac sync, Parental Controls and Voiceover tho I can see they'll be useful for some.

Add to the points above that most testers report better/faster overall performance and the interesting things that developers will be able to do to with Core Video etc, and I will be buying a copy.

[James Philp]

What about core video, core image and core audio - what great apps are going to be made using these tools!
I dunno, sometimes i wanna make a quick calc - usually currency conversion, and opening an application just to do this annoys me. - Dashboard will be good & useful methinks.
Personally, I think every major update of os X has been good - it's like getting a new computer for $100!
Just hoping it'll run on my G3 500 PB!
Have faith - it'll rock!
But till then, you know, you're right. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it! I am already operating on a great OS! :)

[itchster]

iChat is improved in many ways people have been hoping, with features such as built-in iTunes song for status, and support of MSN, ICQ, Yahoo, and more through Jabber.


So in Tiger we will be able to use iChat to talk to MSN buddies? if so i can get rid of MSN messenger for mac, i prefer iChat, but most of my buddies are on MSN

[iindigo]

So in Tiger we will be able to use iChat to talk to MSN buddies? if so i can get rid of MSN messenger for mac, i prefer iChat, but most of my buddies are on MSN

Yep. You have to set up a Jabber account, but it's nothing major. Here's some instructions on how to set it up that I posted earlier: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=118007&highlight=jabber+msn+icq

[Soulstorm]

Just hoping it'll run on my G3 500 PB!

Of course it will run. And I believe it will run faster than Panther. Just think about it. Jaquar runs ok in your specs. Panther was 50% faster from jaguar in the same machines. So, now that everyone experiences much better performance with Tiger, suddenly your system will not be able to run it?

Perhaps you confuse Apple with Microsoft. Apple always tries to make their software run on low-end machines.

[GodBless]

You know, I was thinking... why are we so excited about Tiger anyway? I thought I'd go down the list of new features highlighted here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/


Spotlight. Now at first...
Spotlight offers a lot more than Quicksilver. It searches faster, it uses more metadata, it finds more files, it uses better indexes, it has a better layout and most importantly it is built into the OS and you don't even need to open an extra Application to use it. And you say this compares to Quicksilver? The OS 9 Finder better than OS X Finder you say? Boy do you need to do some extensive research!! Good jokes.

Dashboard. This is nothing more than a gimmick....
I suppose you are right. It must just be an illusion that it is faster to open my Calculator with one press of a function key in under a second instead of taking three to four times longer either looking for the application in the dock or looking for it in the Finder and the waiting for it to load. Right? Wrong! The Calculator opens as a background application as my system logs in. Seriously Dashboard is not the same as Konfabulator. I guess you didn't know that Dashboard widgets were made from CSS, Java and html so they can be integrated right into web usage more easily than Konfabulator. Also the programming makes it faster to develop them and people who already know web kit don't need to learn anything new to make them. I guess you didn't know that Dashboard widgets are a fraction of the file size of Konfabulator widgets so they can run on slower systems multiple times faster than with Konfabulator. You can also have five times more of them open at one time. Because of the type of programming used in widgets they can be developed faster and they can do lots more than Konfabulator ever could. Also what about core image? Not only do you get productivity out of widgets but also visual eye candy. What more could you ask for? I don't know about you but I want to have multiple apps open at the same time and visible at the same time. Dashboard makes all of this possible.

Safari RSS. There are already a number of great RSS readers/tickers out there...
Wrong that RSS is all that you get with Safari 2.0 in Tiger! There are countless improvements over Safari 1.0 in Safari 2.0 including faster browsing, better implementation of History and and Bookmarking, improvements to popup blocking, it reads PDFs and Post Script files, it has better security so it can be used privately if you don't want others to go through your history, and much more that Apple doesn't even mention on their website more. Once again it is built into the OS which will beat out Firefox even if it didn't have extra features such as Private Browsing and PDF reading.

Mail. As many people here know, Apple Mail is a sad application...
Mail is not sad anymore with Tiger. (Mail 1.0 wasn't too bad considering it was the 1st version.) It already was good in Panther but now it is better. It is more integrated with the OS better. (I do agree however that the interface isn't inline with the OS and that this part of Mail is unfortunate but don't miss out on the good things from being a cynic.) You can now view a photo slideshow with the click of the mouse. You can put photos into iPhoto with a click of the mouse. Spotlight searching is now available in Mail 2.0. Speed enhancements are everywhere. Many bugs are fixed. Trust me not only do the smart folders work faster than 3rd party applications but also but they are also more comprehensive.

iChat. The video conferencing is nice. However, it only works (and works well) if everyone is using iChat...
iChat does not only accept AOL accounts now. It now has tabbed browsing, Jabber support, extended options, H.264 high definition video and audio support, core image video effects and much much more that Apple doesn't mention on their website.

Automator. This is nice stuff, but it has a serious limitation: It is only good if it already has actions built in for what you want to do...
I think they should have used something different that AppleScripts too due to limitations but at least it is better than nothing. At least I will be able to do more programming faster and with a visual interface without being required to learn programming. Did you know that you can download Automator Workflows that do a specific task much like you download a program? This will be awesome and a big time saver. Also people can develop their own AppleScripts to run in their applications to be used in an Automator Workflow.

VoiceOver. If you need this, you need this. If you don't, you don't.
Parental controls. Same thing.
I agree.

.Mac Sync. I'm sure as hell not paying Apple $100 a year when I can get 4GB of space and 100GB monthly bandwidth for $69 a year from hasweb.com, along with a *ton* of extra features and one-click install forums, mailing lists, etc etc. Hence, this is useless to me.
I agree again.

Quicktime. The new technology is nice. Too bad Apple refuses to support Linux.

This is a great new technology. H.264 standard, realtime video resizing, audio and video recording capabilities, full screen controls, extensive surround sound, many added controls, automatic internet streaming speed detection and much more.

Now, there are also a lot of things Apple fails to mention. Such as how the finder is a clunky piece of junk. (If you don't think it is, go back and use OS 9. It was much cleaner and more elegant, although it lacked a column view). As many would agree, the Finder is crap. The FTP integration is crap. Window settings recall when they feel like it. Folders from other users and websites override your default settings without a care (thanks to .DS_Store crap). Giant metal toolbars take up valuable screen space. Turn them off, and certain folders will just ignore your settings anyway. Hell, browse the package contents of a bundle, and it will ignore them completely. Mail is still sad. iChat is still sad for IMing. Safari is only useful because of its integration. You still need Tinkertool to do basic things like seeing invisible files. Etc etc etc. Personally, I am not impressed. Personally, I'm hoping Gnome gets more polished. It already has a better file browser than OS X. All it needs now is more UI consistency amongst its apps and better panels. Not to mention -- It doesn't cost $129 every year!
Finder is not junk. OS 9 was junk. In fact today's Finder in my opinion is better than the whole OS 9. I switched to being a mac user when OS X 10.2 came out because I realized that it was (and still is) the best OS available. Sure the file system could be better I agree I don't like those extra .DS_Store files either. The toolbars are better now. Check this comparison out on post #20:http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=118668&page=1 . Hey at least TinkerTool is one of the only system add on tools that I need. (Unlike Linux and Windows which need countless system tools to do anything.) If you think Gnome beats Tiger's Finder think again. I used Linux for a while on my Mac to see what it did, and it did nothing. Why do I want a Mac? Because I want to be productive. I don't want to do two times the work to do anything like in Windows or three times the work in Linux. Realize that Tiger is great :) . Don't deny the fact with ignorance and cynical assumptions just because OS 9 was bad. Once bad doesn't mean always bad. If Windows Longhorn is better for productivity than OS X 10.4 ( I doubt it will be though :rolleyes: ) than I will switch back to it. If Linux is better I will switch to that. I don't have a bias like you I have a preference for the best. $129 why not? I would pay $300 dollars for it if Apple charged that much because it is well worth it.

[bushgreen]

there are features in tiger that are missing in from os 9. such as the customizable apple menu, tabs, application switcher and other good features no more in os x.

[broken_keyboard]

Spotlight. I cannot think of an occasion where I would want to use it. When was the last time you ever thought, "Darn, I wish I could find all the documents on my hard drive with the word 'Paris' in them?"


There are times at work when I would kill for that kind of search. When I need to find an old Requirements Document and just don't know where it was. But at work we have PCs. At home I can't think of much use for it.

Dashboard.

The Widget I would like most is a simple picture frame so I can have pictures of my loved ones and pop them up at any time. But there is no such widget...

Safari RSS. There are already a number of great RSS readers/tickers out there. The fact that this is the only major thing Apple added to Safari is just sad.

It's not the only feature. Tiger Safari is a lot faster than Panther Safari. It is one of the best reasons to buy Tiger.

Mail.

I agree. Mail is way too overcomplicated already - just look at the menus - so much crap. And now it is ugly too. But the new Tiger features for emails with photo attachments are very innovative and genuinely useful.

iChat.

I have never used this, because it is not compatible with MSN.

Automator.

I am traditionally very skeptical of graphical scripting. But if anyone can do it right it's Apple I suppose. Will have to have a play with this when it comes out, just to look for innovations. I will never actually use it of course, but I will scan it for good ideas I can utilize.

Quicktime.

This is a good reason to buy Tiger for me. My first computer was a Commodore 64, and seeing videos playing on computers *still* impresses me for some reason :-)

Now, there are also a lot of things Apple fails to mention. Such as how the finder is a clunky piece of junk. (If you don't think it is, go back and use OS 9. It was much cleaner and more elegant, although it lacked a column view). As many would agree, the Finder is crap. The FTP integration is crap.


Yes, the Finder is crap. Steve said at the Panther release that they thought they had *finally* got the Finder right, but I don't see how. Perhaps if I get in to the habit of using Spotlight to launch apps I will be able to avoid it more in Tiger.

[James Philp]

Of course it will run. And I believe it will run faster than Panther. Just think about it. Jaquar runs ok in your specs. Panther was 50% faster from jaguar in the same machines. So, now that everyone experiences much better performance with Tiger, suddenly your system will not be able to run it?

Perhaps you confuse Apple with Microsoft. Apple always tries to make their software run on low-end machines.

Just to say, it's based to enhance 64 bit systems, and have applications also to do this. My PB is already pretty slow with only a few apps open, and have filled with ram only to 384MB - considering 10.3 need 212 minimum, I wondering about the spec for 10.4! Also, a 10Gb hard drive is hardly roomy for 10.3 and i only hope 10.4 is no bigger.

For an example, iTunes takes up 20-30% of my CPU currently! And safari is CURRENTLY hogging 54% just writing this!
The transitions and effects from quartz do not work on this machine so i only wonder how it'll figure out core video etc.!?
I think you seem to have a somewhat optimistic view! Wow safari going up to 60% now...

[GodBless]

Just to say, it's based to enhance 64 bit systems, and have applications also to do this. My PB is already pretty slow with only a few apps open, and have filled with ram only to 384MB - considering 10.3 need 212 minimum, I wondering about the spec for 10.4! Also, a 10Gb hard drive is hardly roomy for 10.3 and i only hope 10.4 is no bigger.

For an example, iTunes takes up 20-30% of my CPU currently! And safari is CURRENTLY hogging 54% just writing this!
The transitions and effects from quartz do not work on this machine so i only wonder how it'll figure out core video etc.!?
I think you seem to have a somewhat optimistic view! Wow safari going up to 60% now...

Yes speed will be enhanced by far with Tiger. On average I've heard that just about everything is twice as fast with G4 systems which ARE NOT 64bit processors. Considering this and that Apple supports older machines, don't doubt that Tiger will be twice as fast on your system. It is twice as fast for G4 systems so why not even faster on yours. I heard that the slower the machine the more you would notice the speed improvements. Would you want to make your system faster for $129 or do you want to spend more and get a new computer? Don't complain because Tiger will be a good deal. This type of complaint is unreasonable! Yes, saying you know something although you are ignorant about it a form of stupidity in my book. And as you pointed out before I'm not the only one who thinks so.

[logicat2001]

The Widget I would like most is a simple picture frame so I can have pictures of my loved ones and pop them up at any time. But there is no such widget...
And here's one example of why Dashboard will be incredibly useful and cool. Do you know how to make an HTML page with an image on it?

Bingo: you can make a Dashboard widget picture frame so you can have pictures of your loved ones and pop them up at any time.

Do you want this to change the images? If you can code in javascript (or simply learn the basics - this isn't very difficult), you've now got yourself a Dashboard widget picture frame that changes the images from a repository of images on your local drive.

Best,
Logicat

[GodBless]

The Widget I would like most is a simple picture frame so I can have pictures of my loved ones and pop them up at any time. But there is no such widget...
Wake up and realize that Dashboard picture viewer widgets already exist. Here is an example: http://www.dashboarddev.com/showcase/details.php?wid=68

[topicolo]

Yes speed will be enhanced by far with Tiger. On average I've heard that just about everything is twice as fast with G4 systems which ARE NOT 64bit processors. Considering this and that Apple supports older machines, don't doubt that Tiger will be twice as fast on your system. It is twice as fast for G4 systems so why not even faster on yours. I heard that the slower the machine the more you would notice the speed improvements. Would you want to make your system faster for $129 or do you want to spend more and get a new computer? Don't complain because Tiger will be a good deal. This type of complaint is unreasonable! Yes, saying you know something although you are ignorant about it a form of stupidity in my book. And as you pointed out before I'm not the only one who thinks so.

How can you call his complaint unreasonable if you're basing all of your criticisms on second hand or third hand info? How do you know without a doubt that Tiger is as optimized for G3s as it is for G4s until it's finally released and benchmarks are done with it? What if he has a G3 Powerbook and Tiger isn't very optimized for those chips?

That's putting a little too much blind faith into Apple.

[GodBless]

How can you call his complaint unreasonable if you're basing all of your criticisms on second hand or third hand info? How do you know without a doubt that Tiger is as optimized for G3s as it is for G4s until it's finally released and benchmarks are done with it? What if he has a G3 Powerbook and Tiger isn't very optimized for those chips?

That's putting a little too much blind faith into Apple.
As I mentioned he is basing his claim off of ignorance. I am basing my claim off of a research study that can be read here: http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=571_0_1_0_M

Yeah that's the kind of speed improvement I'm talking about. Twice as fast.

[DavidLeblond]

XCode 2.0... come on, guys... I can't be the only one excited about it.

Dashboard, Spotlight, 3-way iChat... I could care less about these things. XCode 2.0 is worth the $129 for me.

That and the faster OpenGL.

[James Philp]

Yes speed will be enhanced by far with Tiger. On average I've heard that just about everything is twice as fast with G4 systems which ARE NOT 64bit processors. Considering this and that Apple supports older machines, don't doubt that Tiger will be twice as fast on your system. It is twice as fast for G4 systems so why not even faster on yours. I heard that the slower the machine the more you would notice the speed improvements. Would you want to make your system faster for $129 or do you want to spend more and get a new computer? Don't complain because Tiger will be a good deal. This type of complaint is unreasonable! Yes, saying you know something although you are ignorant about it a form of stupidity in my book. And as you pointed out before I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Firstly, I didn't complain about anything! I simply said "I hoped it would run"! You may want to read my original post, saying "it wil rock"?! You seem distinctly uninformed about the history of my discussion!
And what precisely when you say Yes, saying you know something although you are ignorant about it a form of stupidity in my book are you referring to? What did I say I know? The majority of the post was numbers pulled directly from my machine!? So what do I know that I am ignorant about? - Perhaps you can enlighten me! My referance of "stupid" was to that someone said I would "of course" be able to run Tiger, although the only spec I gave was I had a G3 500!- I could still be running OS 9 with 64MB RAM and a 5GB HD!
Look at the history of the thing!! Have RAM requirements not increased?! Did Macs not come with 128MB as standard until the last year or two? Has the OS not continued to grow in size? Do the graphics cards installed in older machines do quartz extreme even - no! Sure the OS will run, but will I be able to DO anything with it!
And I love how your arguament is based around On average I've heard that just about everything is twice as fast with G4 systems! Firstly - which G4 systems? Dual G4, what? Secondly, there is a significant different in G3 and G4 based systems. Thirdly, "heard" - wow, rock-solid! Until it's released no-one really knows the system spec. and all I said was "I hope it will run on my G3 500 PB"!

I made no complaint - I wont be particularly annoyed if it doesn't run, I've had this machine for 4 years now - much longer than any PC I ever had lasted. 10.3 runs OK, best OS I've ever used, I also own a iMac G4, and so will buy 10.4 anyway. I don't really see why I am "stupid" for expecting things to carry on as they have done in the computing world for over 2 decades!

[GodBless]

I don't really see why I am "stupid" for expecting things to carry on as they have done in the computing world for over 2 decades!

I am sorry if you thought I implied that. All I am saying is that I am extremely confident that it will run on your system. I know people who are running Panther on older systems using software from here: http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/ . My main goal wasn't trying to tell you that it is unreasonable to think that Tiger won't run on your system but instead I wanted to boost your confidence in Tiger and your knowledge of what Tiger will offer. All I am trying to say is to be optimistic about Tiger.

[broken_keyboard]

XCode 2.0... come on, guys... I can't be the only one excited about it.

Dude... XCode is the prime example of everything that is wrong with programming today. Whenever I need a good cry about the state of my profession (I have been a developer for 7 years) I look at XCode.

Poor old Apple. They are totally obsessed with OO, an utterly failed idea. They have frameworks up the wazoo. Oh the humanity!

[ksz]

Tiger, like Panther, is about the overall experience -- the sum of the parts. 150 new features taken together will add up, judging from the responses here, to a truly exciting new release.

Having installed Google's Desktop Search Engine on my PC laptop a week ago, all I can say is WOW, what a useful addition this is -- a little thing that means a lot -- when I have a lot of Office files on my PC from customers, colleagues and technical seminars that I do not have the time to read fully and organize properly into well-named subdirectories. There's a lot of very useful information in those documents that I need at unexpected occasions, and this is where the Desktop Search Engine has been quite valuable. Spotlight is even more advanced; I think it can eventually evolve into a new Finder, allowing you to find in detail what you want rather than browse at a high level what files you have -- a paradigm shift from a file-based browser to a content-based lookup.

To keep this short, I'll just add another voice of excitement over the addition of new "CoreTechnologies" at the O/S level.

[James Philp]

As I mentioned he is basing his claim off of ignorance. I am basing my claim off of a research study that can be read here: http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=571_0_1_0_M

Yeah that's the kind of speed improvement I'm talking about. Twice as fast.

I hate to break it to you, but all that "research" you so lovingly use as some kind of justification for calling people ignorant and saying you know all, is based around a G4 system, NOT a G3! I'm not entirely sure how you are applying from one to another!?

Suffice to say, my main concern is NOT the processor, but the RAM, HD, graphics card (no cube trasitions in sight) et al. You forget the specs of these machines! I got this with OS 8 installed as standard! Every machine on that test probably came with AT LEAST 10.2 if not 10.3! Of course a 1 or 2 year old piece of hardware is still going to be supported, but my machine is last generation, I know this, I'm not bitter, but hopeful.

P.S. I'd still like to know what it is I know, but am ignorant about!?

[GodBless]

Dude... XCode is the prime example of everything that is wrong with programming today. Whenever I need a good cry about the state of my profession (I have been a developer for 7 years) I look at XCode.

Poor old Apple. They are totally obsessed with OO, an utterly failed idea. They have frameworks up the wazoo. Oh the humanity!

I suppose the next thing you say is that OS X applications are the worst thing since Windows ME. Since the method of creating them is so bad the outcome must be bad too. Right? Good joke. I've never found better applications on any other platform and now you say that the programming interface is bad?!

Can you please clarify why you think Xcode is so bad? And if Xcode is so bad; wouldn't Xcode 2.0 be a good thing to make it better? By the way what is wrong with frameworks?

[ksz]

Dude... XCode is the prime example of everything that is wrong with programming today. Whenever I need a good cry about the state of my profession (I have been a developer for 7 years) I look at XCode.

Poor old Apple. They are totally obsessed with OO, an utterly failed idea. They have frameworks up the wazoo. Oh the humanity!
What is your idea of a good framework and a good programming model?

In my view, C++ has failed to deliver the promises of OO in the real world. Syntax is arcane, you need to read both Effective C++ and More Effective C++ followed by Effective STL followed by long expensive therapy sessions with a good counselor. It is difficult to learn, difficult to master, easy to confuse new developers, etc. From my personal experience managing a commerical application with 1.2 million lines of C++ code, I concluded that the promises of Extensibility, Supportability, Testability, Reusability, Portability, Productivity, and other Ability's and Ivity's have not been fulfilled, and have been over-promised.

We have found Java and C# -- particularly C# -- to be what C++ should have been. And Objective C?? Ouch.

[GodBless]

I hate to break it to you buddy, but all that "research" you so lovingly use as some kind of justification for calling people ignorant and saying you know all, is based around a G4 system, NOT a G3! I'm not entirely sure how you are applying from one to another!?

Suffice to say, my main concern is NOT the processor, but the RAM, HD, graphics card (no cube trasitions in sight) et al. You forget the specs of these machines! I got this with OS 8 installed as standard! Every machine on that test probably came with AT LEAST 10.2 if not 10.3! Of course a 1 or 2 year old piece of hardware is still going to be supported, but my machine is last generation, I know this, I'm not bitter, but hopeful.

I never said "I know it all." And I wasn't trying to imply that either. All I was saying is that I know a lot about this topic from day one of being a Mac user. I have seen the system requirements for Tiger and I know that it does support G3s. Also since G4s and G5s have huge speed bumps in Tiger, why not G3s too? Of course not everything is supported with older systems but a lot is. I know people who upgraded to Panther from Jaguar and saw huge speed improvements on machines that had G3 processors and if I remember correctly huge speed improvements on machines that had pre G3 processors. Amazing isn't it. I am glad that you are optimistic about this. I am sorry that I didn't realize it sooner.

[broken_keyboard]

I suppose the next thing you say is that OS X applications are the worst thing since Windows ME. Since the method of creating them is so bad the outcome must be bad too. Right? Good joke.

Are you having fun putting words in to my mouth and then answering your own arguments I never made? It's a fallacy of composition to say the whole must have the same properties as its parts. Here is a page on basic logic for you: http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

[broken_keyboard]

From my personal experience managing a commerical application with 1.2 million lines of C++ code, I concluded that the promises of Extensibility, Supportability, Testability, Reusability, Portability, Productivity, and other Ability's and Ivity's have not been fulfilled, and have been over-promised.

I agree. I have had the same experience supporting and large commerical Java applications with thousands of classes. Check out SOA - Service Oriented Architecture as a programming model. I have used this on a few recent projects and it is very promising. Not fully proven yet though.

[jeremy.king]

I agree. I have had the same experience supporting and large commerical Java applications with thousands of classes. Check out SOA - Service Oriented Architecture as a programming model. I have used this on a few recent projects and it is very promising. Not fully proven yet though.

Care to enlighten me how SOA is going to make for better desktop based applications? Also you can implement an SOA using OO languages so I fail to see your beef with XCode/Obj-C...

[Sun Baked]

You left out SMPng...

Of course that only helps if you have a dual, or dual core machine.

[klaus]

It's in the nature of man that they tend to not look further than their own scope. An operating system needs to address millions of people, and is for a lot of them their daily task to be able to use it, in any way they need.

The new features may not look very usefull for some, I bet a lot of developers are wishing Tiger existed ten years ago, because of built-in image & video (core image & video), built-in meta searching (Spotlight), and I could go on and on.

These features will be available to use for every application written for the platform, so this can ONLY be a good thing. Cause in the end, you will have to use those programs.

And to be honest, which ground-breaking new features would you add to mac os x, or windows xp, or any recent OS-es? They can't reinvent the wheel.

And like a lot of people mentioned, if you don't see any use of Tiger, you are not obligated to buy it. You can wait for 10.5 as well, without any problems.

Cu guys!

[TigerPRO]

Quicktime. The new technology is nice. Too bad Apple refuses to support Linux.



It is too bad there is no linux version of QuickTime. Apple is kinda being like Microsoft in a way, by ignoring users because they are in the minority. It's too bad, because Apple's marketshare is actually smaller than Linux! Makes no sense to me. If they are going to brag about a supposed "cross platform media player" they better start supporting more operating systems. And it's hypocritical that they are able to develop QuickTime for their lower marketshare OS X boxes and not for linux; even though the OS stinks.

[DavidLeblond]

Dude... XCode is the prime example of everything that is wrong with programming today. Whenever I need a good cry about the state of my profession (I have been a developer for 7 years) I look at XCode.

Poor old Apple. They are totally obsessed with OO, an utterly failed idea. They have frameworks up the wazoo. Oh the humanity!

XCode is not a framework, please don't confuse it like Microsoft seems to be doing. For a "free" tool, XCode is wonderful. OO being utterly failed is a matter of opinion... it all depends on what you're programming. And as far as frameworks up the wazoo... huh? How are they not like everyone else? And whats so bad about having a lot of frameworks? You do know that frameworks are there to HELP us, right?

I guess I probably like XCode so much because, by profession, I program using Windows frameworks (MFC, .NET, etc) and I can honestly say after coding in Visual Studio .NET (.NET not 6.0... 6.0 was at least stable) working with XCode is a breath of fresh air.

[daveL]

And it's hypocritical that they are able to develop QuickTime for their lower marketshare OS X boxes and not for linux; even though the OS stinks.
So, which OS stinks; I couldn't tell, for sure, from your sentence.

[ifjake]

it's funny at times i read people complaining that most of the updates are gimmicks, and then that they won't be able to run on their machine.

nevertheless, you have to admit that Tiger is going to see improvements in many aspects (anything that can make my ol' PB seem a little quicker is welcome). nothing is ever going to be perfect for everybody at once. there are power users who'll always say that this program they found can do this feature just as well, or (this made me chuckle) that they could shell script it better. and then there will be the simpler non-computer-programmer folks who will think it's pretty cool to see Dashboard pop up there.

what i like about Tiger is that Apple is trying to make it easier for other people to come up with cool stuff. Dashboard Widgets, Audio and Image Units, straight-up applications, and stuff that i have no clue about. i even remember reading how you could create plugins for spotlight if you wanted to, something about importing new metadata or something. maybe that and other things aren't necessarily all "Apple Firsts," but i really like their initiative in implementing newer ideas and making it more available to others to do the same.

[gopher]

It is too bad there is no linux version of QuickTime. Apple is kinda being like Microsoft in a way, by ignoring users because they are in the minority. It's too bad, because Apple's marketshare is actually smaller than Linux! Makes no sense to me. If they are going to brag about a supposed "cross platform media player" they better start supporting more operating systems. And it's hypocritical that they are able to develop QuickTime for their lower marketshare OS X boxes and not for linux; even though the OS stinks.

Actually someone has made it possible to watch Quicktime on Linux:

http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2001/09/06/crossover_partone.html

I suggest you Google a little more. Just plugin Quicktime and Linux and you will get lots of results.

[jaw04005]

As OS X matures, it's going to be harder and harder for Apple to convince customers to purchase upgrades.

I remember when Mac users used to laugh at Windows users because a new upgrade was available every few years (Windows 95 (1995), Windows 95b (1996), Windows 98 (1998), Windows 98 SE (1999), Windows ME (2000), Windows XP (2001).

Now look, I've paid $129 for 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and now will for 10.4, just to stay current. $516 for basically the same OS.

10.0 (2001)

10.1 (2001) - First Stable Release of OS X

10.2's (2002) "Features" were:

iChat, Sherlock 3, Mail, Improved Address Book, Rendezvous, QuickTime 6, Inkwell, Updated Finder, Quartz Extreme, Universal Access, UNIX upgrades and Samba Support

10.3 (2003) "Features" were:

Expose, Application Switcher, Mail's Threading Capability, Updated Finder, File Vault, Speed Improvements, UNIX and Windows compatibility upgrades Upgrades, iChat AV

10.4 (2005) "Features" are:

Dashboard, Automator, Updated Mail, Updated iChat, Spotlight, iSync built-in, Updated Finder, Core Image, UNIX and Windows compatibility upgrades

Is Tiger worth it? I don't know. Looking back, I'm not sure if Panther was worth it. But, I'm a mac faithful, so I will probally purchase Tiger the day it's released.

Puma and Jaguar were the only releases I would consider must-haves, mainly because of stability improvements.

[Lacero]

Now look, I've paid $129 for 10.1...I think you got ripped off on that deal. http://www3.telus.net/poojja/s/slap.gif

[TigerPRO]

So, which OS stinks; I couldn't tell, for sure, from your sentence.
Sorry to confuse you. The context was Apple not making QuickTime for Linux (even though it stinks). So I'm saying Ubuntu stinks.

[Chimera]

Is Tiger worth it? I don't know. Looking back, I'm not sure if Panther was worth it. But, I'm a mac faithful, so I will probally purchase Tiger the day it's released.

Puma and Jaguar were the only releases I would consider must-haves, mainly because of stability improvements.

I have thought the same recently but the big things that have changed through all versions is the speed, every update has made os X that much faster and made my mac more productive for me. Aparently this will also be the case with Tiger.

I agree we have been blitzed with updates but it has been necessary to finish this relatively new OS (If only the prices were lower to compensate) and although many interpret the 'slowing' of updates to every 2 years I wouldn't be suprised if it was 2.5 years or more for the next.

Frank

[TigerPRO]

Actually someone has made it possible to watch Quicktime on Linux:

http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2001/09/06/crossover_partone.html

I suggest you Google a little more. Just plugin Quicktime and Linux and you will get lots of results.

Yeah that's true, but I wasn't talking about being able to watch QuickTime content on Linux, I was talking about Apple specifically making a version of the QuickTime player for Linux.

[TigerPRO]

I remember when Mac users used to laugh at Windows users because a new upgrade was available every few years (Windows 95 (1995), Windows 95b (1996), Windows 98 (1998), Windows 98 SE (1999), Windows ME (2000), Windows XP (2001).

Now look, I've paid $129 for 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and now will for 10.4, just to stay current. $516 for basically the same OS.

Would you somehow feel better if those same feature upgrades had just been spaced out more like most software companies would do? If instead each of those upgrade had come three years apart, would spending the same money for the same product be easier just because the development was slower?

[Ja Di ksw]

I'm sure people will rip on me for this, but I don't see what's so bad about Finder. Everyone (except for the people going on and on about expose) says its horrible and clunky and this and that, but I just don't see it. Everything I have is set into organized folders, which I can view however I want. I have a sidebar, and I can search for everything. Slow and clunky? Its folders opening up. I click on them, and they open up. I'm not sure I could even notice any increase in the speed of a folder opening, it does it pretty much instantly. The only thing that annoys me is when I have it set up as columns and it takes a bit for movie previews to load.

I'm really not trying to build up the finder. I just want to know what people have against it so much, and how they would set it up to be better. I'd love to hear some great ideas. Please don't just say, "it sucks, its clunky, its slow." Please give something actually creative and constructive.

[Sun Baked]

I'm sure people will rip on me for this, but I don't see what's so bad about Finder. Everyone (except for the people going on and on about expose) says its horrible and clunky and this and that, but I just don't see it. Everything I have is set into organized folders, which I can view however I want. I have a sidebar, and I can search for everything. Slow and clunky? Its folders opening up. I click on them, and they open up. I'm not sure I could even notice any increase in the speed of a folder opening, it does it pretty much instantly. The only thing that annoys me is when I have it set up as columns and it takes a bit for movie previews to load.

I'm really not trying to build up the finder. I just want to know what people have against it so much, and how they would set it up to be better. I'd love to hear some great ideas. Please don't just say, "it sucks, its clunky, its slow." Please give something actually creative and constructive.Please Dont Start That Here...

There is a current thread on it here...

How the Mac OS X Finder could be improved (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=119322)

[Maedus]

what i like about Tiger is that Apple is trying to make it easier for other people to come up with cool stuff. Dashboard Widgets, Audio and Image Units, straight-up applications, and stuff that i have no clue about. i even remember reading how you could create plugins for spotlight if you wanted to, something about importing new metadata or something. maybe that and other things aren't necessarily all "Apple Firsts," but i really like their initiative in implementing newer ideas and making it more available to others to do the same.

That is one of the big things I'm looking forward to in Tiger. It is the unseen features of Mac OS X upgrades that are getting me excited. Not only has Mac OS X been getting faster on my 266 MHz G3 Beige w/ 416 MB Ram, but so have the applications. And both have been looking neater and are being more functional too. This machine will not be running 10.4, but that is only because I'm getting a new iMac when they're revised and have Tiger preinstalled.

Also, I wish other programmers would work on improving performance instead of adding thousands of minor features that I not only don't use or don't find functional, but instead work to make my experience less functional and makes the program run a lot slower. *Cough*Microsoft Office*Cough* In fact, if Microsoft Office was programmed to run significantly faster on each release, I probably wouldn't find it as necessary to get a new computer since many of the small freeware apps and the OS itself run fine and are getting better with each revision.

I remember when Mac users used to laugh at Windows users because a new upgrade was available every few years (Windows 95 (1995), Windows 95b (1996), Windows 98 (1998), Windows 98 SE (1999), Windows ME (2000), Windows XP (2001).

I don't remember laughing about that. I remember laughing about them putting the year on their product like cars instead of version numbers. Though now that I think of it, it would be neat if car manufacturers used system numbers. "Now introducing the Mustang 8.1" and on the window sticker are a list of "New and Additional Features" and in the manual was the version history. And a list of known bugs would be sweet too. "Some users experience bugs with fast acceleration after 100,000 miles." But now I'm rambling. But back to point, I remember laughing at the year numbers because they'd release a version of Windows 95 in 1996 and a version of Windows 98 in 1999. And I found it humourous having to rush the OS out before the end of the year or else Windows 95 becomes Windows 96. And plus its a constant reminder of how dated your computer and OS is. Think if XP was instead called Windows 2001. You'd be able to look at the opening splash screen and go "my OS is 4 years old now, how ancient." Oh, and I laughed when I asked what features Windows 98 SE had over Windows 98 from my Windows friends and they replied "assurance of Y2K compatability" and then we all laughed at Windows. I'm never did learn what Windows 98 SE really did have over Windows 98, but if that is the only feature they looked forward too or could remember, then only looking forward to Dashboard or XCode or whatever part of the new OS that an individual likes isn't so pathetic then.

But I do think you're right, joshuawaire, in that as Mac OS X matures, it won't feel so important to upgrade. It will be like Mac OS 8.0 - 9.2. Some people will really find it necessary to upgrade while others would only upgrade if they felt like it. But by the time 10.8 - 10.9.x rolls around, Apple will probably have a Mac OS 11 coming out that will completely rethink the way we think about the OS. And of course, we'll have topics on about how crisp and responsive 10.9 was and how the Finder of 11 will suck.

I think I got kind of rambly on this post (been a jumpy, sleepless weekend) so let me reiterate. Tiger will be good not only for OS improvements, but more importantly for what it will let new applications do. People laugh at Windows because its fun and easy to do (hence why Windows users laught too). And some people are only happy with the "good ol' days" of something.

[Soulstorm]

I'm sure people will rip on me for this, but I don't see what's so bad about Finder. Everyone (except for the people going on and on about expose) says its horrible and clunky and this and that, but I just don't see it. Everything I have is set into organized folders, which I can view however I want. I have a sidebar, and I can search for everything. Slow and clunky? Its folders opening up. I click on them, and they open up. I'm not sure I could even notice any increase in the speed of a folder opening, it does it pretty much instantly. The only thing that annoys me is when I have it set up as columns and it takes a bit for movie previews to load.

I'm really not trying to build up the finder. I just want to know what people have against it so much, and how they would set it up to be better. I'd love to hear some great ideas. Please don't just say, "it sucks, its clunky, its slow." Please give something actually creative and constructive.
I love finder. Anyway, this is not the correct topic to start this conversation, but I would like to make notice here... Everyone says that Finder sucks. However, everyone is waiting eagerly for Tiger's release, and 70% of people intend to buy it from the first week of release!

Why?

[Ja Di ksw]

Please Dont Start That Here...

There is a current thread on it here...

How the Mac OS X Finder could be improved (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=119322)

Fair enough, thank you. I just read a lot of "Finder sucks" here, so I asked it here. I'll look over at that thread.

[vocaro]

XCode 2.0... come on, guys... I can't be the only one excited about it.

Amen, brother. And what about Java 5.0? I've been waiting for a final Mac OS X release of that for months.

Developers are waiting for Tiger just as eagerly as end users.

[jaw04005]

I think you got ripped off on that deal. http://www3.telus.net/poojja/s/slap.gif

I didn't purchase 10.0, so I paid full price for 10.1. I know that 10.0 users got 10.1 for free.

[jaw04005]

Would you somehow feel better if those same feature upgrades had just been spaced out more like most software companies would do? If instead each of those upgrade had come three years apart, would spending the same money for the same product be easier just because the development was slower?

No, but just because Steve Jobs says something is "revolutionary" doesn't mean it is. Take Sherlock, it was one of the top 10 upgrades promoted about Jaguar... has it been mentioned since? No. The majority of the features available in each new release of Mac OS X are gimmicks used to promote that version's coolness factor.

Microsoft improves Windows with each Service Pack release. A lot of the speed, unix, and compatibility improvements could be released as something equivalent to a service pack instead of a new version of the Mac OS X.

I'm going to purchase Tiger, but besides dashboard, automator, spotlight, and .Mac sync what are the other 100 features of Tiger that were announced at WWDC? Apple's website doesn't list them.

[iindigo]

I'm going to purchase Tiger, but besides dashboard, automator, spotlight, and .Mac sync what are the other 100 features of Tiger that were announced at WWDC? Apple's website doesn't list them.

The majority of these are under the hood, which matters just as much as the "tangible" part of the software -

[Timelessblur]

I have to agree with you on the part of the ichat video conf.

It more or less just a gimic and kind of useless because less than 3% of all computer out their can even use it or will be able to use it and it will stay that way until iChat or iChat video conf is ported over to windows. Just think about in a numbers game. A lot of people can video chat though AOL flaky interface and other IM programs and that only became more than a gimic when it the big IM programs started carring it and it was on windows.

As bad as it sounds apple needs to get the vidio conf thing over to windows so it gets out of the unless gimic stage since no one can really use it. (This is a pure numbers game and since macs are a drop in the bucket for computers out their you get the idea)

[jaw04005]

The majority of these are under the hood, which matters just as much as the "tangible" part of the software -

Where's the list? Apple has yet to post a list of updates. I guess they just assume the mac faithful will upgrade automatically.

[NaMo4184]

No, but just because Steve Jobs says something is "revolutionary" doesn't mean it is. Take Sherlock, it was one of the top 10 upgrades promoted about Jaguar... has it been mentioned since? No. The majority of the features available in each new release of Mac OS X are gimmicks used to promote that version's coolness factor.

Microsoft improves Windows with each Service Pack release. A lot of the speed, unix, and compatibility improvements could be released as something equivalent to a service pack instead of a new version of the Mac OS X.

I'm going to purchase Tiger, but besides dashboard, automator, spotlight, and .Mac sync what are the other 100 features of Tiger that were announced at WWDC? Apple's website doesn't list them.
What are you talking about... speed improvments are introduced through "service packs" in os x. those updates aren't just for show. i guess apple should wait 2 years to release every 10.3.x update for it to matter.
;)

[gopher]

I have to agree with you on the part of the ichat video conf.

It more or less just a gimic and kind of useless because less than 3% of all computer out their can even use it or will be able to use it and it will stay that way until iChat or iChat video conf is ported over to windows. Just think about in a numbers game. A lot of people can video chat though AOL flaky interface and other IM programs and that only became more than a gimic when it the big IM programs started carring it and it was on windows.

As bad as it sounds apple needs to get the vidio conf thing over to windows so it gets out of the unless gimic stage since no one can really use it. (This is a pure numbers game and since macs are a drop in the bucket for computers out their you get the idea)

iChat videochats with AOL IM 5.5 for Windows. So I don't know what your problem is there. If you have trouble setting it up, there are lots of helping threads on http://discussions.info.apple.com/ 's iChat forum.

[Timelessblur]

iChat videochats with AOL IM 5.5 for Windows. So I don't know what your problem is there. If you have trouble setting it up, there are lots of helping threads on http://discussions.info.apple.com/ 's iChat forum.

Read my post again.
vidoe chat works m I stated that. vidoe chat is you just have two computer involved, Video conf is 3 or more computers involved.

Video conferencing will not work on windows computers. That was the part that that I stated need to be ported over other wise it just a gimic and more or less a useless gimic in Tiger because you will not be able to use it with 97% of the computers out there. Until Video conferencing is can be used with the major IM clients it stays just a gimic.

[gopher]

vidoe chat works. If you read though it I stated that

Video conferencing will not work on windows computers. That was the part that that I stated need to be ported over other wise it just a gimic and more or less a useless gimic in Tiger because you will not be able to use it with 97% of the computers out there. Until Video conferencing is can be used with the major IM clients it stays just a gimic.

ISPq chat offers 4 way videochat for Windows and Macintosh.

http://www.ispq.com/

[jaw04005]

What are you talking about... speed improvments are introduced through "service packs" in os x. those updates aren't just for show. i guess apple should wait 2 years to release every 10.3.x update for it to matter.
;)

Many mac users will upgrade to Tiger for the expected speed improvements. Those improvements could be provided as a 10.3.X update or service pack update to Mac OS 10.3.

[Timelessblur]

ISPq chat offers 4 way videochat for Windows and Macintosh.

http://www.ispq.com/

Not a major clinit until a major clinet
and until a major clinet yahoo, MSN, AIM picks it up and until it hits free mode
Also iChat does not tie into that network so that not it.

That program is just a gimic program same as iChat video conf.

[NaMo4184]

Many mac users will upgrade to Tiger for the expected speed improvements. Those improvements could be provided as a 10.3.X update or service pack update to Mac OS 10.3.
Apple never said nore implied that 10.4 is a brand new operating system. believe it or not it is based on panther which was based on jaguar which was based on ect... So really tiger is the same OS but better. There is a line that is drawn when you are introducing some speed improvments and when you are doing a major upgrade.

[Maedus]

Where's the list? Apple has yet to post a list of updates. I guess they just assume the mac faithful will upgrade automatically.

Or they'll wait until they see all the downloadable software for Mac OS X start saying "Mac OS X 10.4 required" or "These features require Mac OS X 10.4." I don't know what changed between 10.2 and 10.3 but Adium X was only able to have nifty graphical message views with 10.3 and Proteus became a 10.3 application. Maybe in 10.4, Adium X will have animated message views that have avatars that move and talk when you type and message, or maybe a theme that mimics the old Centepede arcade game and the centepede marches across the screen and the little gunpod thing shoots it and turns it into letters. And maybe with Core Image, developers will figure out how to create animated program launches that make it look like the desktop was liquid and the applications surfaced up from behind the desktop or were dropped down on top of it and rippled and stuff as they loaded. I doubt it will happen, but you never know what is possible until you find out what you have and how you can push it as far as you can go.

The thing is, I don't think a list of all the under-the-hood improvements can be easily listed and 'sold' to the consumer. And even if they did, it isn't until these under-the-hood improvements are utilized by programers and demonstrated can you really appreciate what it does.

Does anybody know what the exact improvement to the Panther code that allowed Adium X to utilize more graphical message views is called?

[TigerPRO]

The majority of the features available in each new release of Mac OS X are gimmicks used to promote that version's coolness factor.

That's partially true. But it's not because the features aren't revolutionary, it's only because they are short lived. I think sherlock is just as cool as it had always been. Only it's too bad not that many people are developing for it. That doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

Microsoft improves Windows with each Service Pack release.

That's up for debate. ;)

I'm going to purchase Tiger, but besides dashboard, automator, spotlight, and .Mac sync what are the other 100 features of Tiger that were announced at WWDC? Apple's website doesn't list them.

Allot of people missunderstand what these features are. There are of course the cornerstone features like dashboard, core image, core video, core data, spotlight, .mac sync, and automator. But they are only the most noticed because they are entirely new things. Most of the other 100 or so features aren't "completely new features", they are "added features". To me these features would include new check boxes and options in system preferences, more useful commands in the menu bars, and other additional functions through various OS X bundled applications.

On top of those, you also have "features" such as enhanced speed, stability, and compadability with new and old technologies. So when you see "Tiger has 200 new features", you can't be looking for 200 news features on the same caliber as dashboard and spotlight. But it's the combination of all these minor enhancements that makes Tiger so revolutionary; not the individual tweaks themselves.

[johnnowak]

Hey all.

Some good points here and there. Quicktime IS going to be very cool, but as a few of us have pointed out, Linux users won't be enjoying the new technology. I work with a lot of artists who use Linux, and because Apple refuses to support the platform, I cannot make use of the new features either.

Yes, I realize Dashboard lets you do things via HTML/CSS/Javascript. My point is, I have yet to see good widgets that would make it useful to me. Yes, I can have a calculator on my screen in 1 second. However, I can use Quicksilver and have a fully-fledged graphing calculator on my screen in 2 seconds. It is the same for most other things.

I was unaware that Safari is twice as fast... although somehow I doubt that. There is no way that everything is twice as fast as some people here are claiming. I do not think I will now be able to render twice as many frames of video per second. Most likely, I will not notice any difference at all. Yes, they may make OpenGL faster... but that's only because it is so non-optimal to begin with. Yes, the OS may become more responsive... but only because it can be so slow currently. I can run something like Gnome now and everything is very snappy without any hardware acceleration (although you can use it with Gnome as well if your hardware supports it). It is nice that iChat will work with other systems, but it is still lacking many important features.

Xcode 2.0 ... I have to agree with an earlier post that it highlights everything that is wrong with contemporary computer programming. As someone who mainly uses Scheme and dataflow languages, it is no real use to me anyway. Besides, I do not want to write code that will only be useful to a fraction of the people I'd like to share my work with. I need a fully cross-platform solution.

As for those who say Linux sucks... try upgrading your entire system, every single application, library, etc, all with one command. Try getting just about any program you'd ever need for free with one command. Try never having to pay for any software again. You'll soon see, that while Gnome/KDE/etc aren't quite up to par yet, it is a brilliant concept. Within two years, open source desktop environments will likely be right up there with OS X, and they'll have all the advantages I mentioned above to boot. Unless you are in a special circumstance (which I am unfortunately, although I'm working on the transition), or you really love to run commercial games (Fallout 3 please!), there will be little reason not to switch to Linux. Actually, in that last case, you're far better off with Windows anyway. Most 3D games run faster, and there is a much larger variety of software. Yes, I know we get probably more than half of the major titles (a year late), but if you love games that are a bit off the beaten path, such as some of the great turn based RPGs available for Windows (RIP Troika), it can be annoying...

[TigerPRO]

As for those who say Linux sucks... try upgrading your entire system, every single application, library, etc, all with one command. Try getting just about any program you'd ever need for free with one command. Try never having to pay for any software again. You'll soon see, that while Gnome/KDE/etc aren't quite up to par yet, it is a brilliant concept. Within two years, open source desktop environments will likely be right up there with OS X, and they'll have all the advantages I mentioned above to boot. Unless you are in a special circumstance (which I am unfortunately, although I'm working on the transition), or you really love to run commercial games (Fallout 3 please!), there will be little reason not to switch to Linux. Actually, in that last case, you're far better off with Windows anyway. Most 3D games run faster, and there is a much larger variety of software. Yes, I know we get probably more than half of the major titles, but if you love games that are a bit off the beaten path, such as some of the great turn based RPGs available for Windows (RIP Troika), it can be annoying...

In two years it will have been five years since OS X has had an OpenGL accelerated interface. Five years is a very long time in the technology industry; I'm sure you know that. Linux is farther behind than you realize. After another two years when Linux is boasting about finally implementing this, it will just be something else. The power and innovative steam engine of comercial software (under proper management) just can't be matched by hobbiest open source hackers. This isn't true in all areas, but the fact of the matter is, the open source communuty will never never produce something to match Final Cut Pro, Lightwave, or Photoshop. They come close, but the sheer strength and weight just isn't always there.

On one hand though, Linux and Apple aren't even in the same ball game. Because Apple fully develops their hardware, software, and OS. The advantage of that kind of seemless integration is a gem not to be found elsewhere. Linux will always plagged with device driver problems, hardware support, and software compadabilty simply because it's not commerical.

But hey, I agree with you about all the free applications. I was impressed with all the high quality programs that came bundled with this one distro I tried out on a wintel box. I also find linux to be much more flexible and customizable. But part of the trade off is the OS is very cluttered. At the same time though, it's nice having features there, even though only 5% of the user base will be taking advantage of them.

[broken_keyboard]

Within two years, open source desktop environments will likely be right up there with OS X, and they'll have all the advantages I mentioned above to boot.

I'll take that bet. You say in two years Linux desktop would have caught up with OS X. I say it will be even further behind. If we are still both on this forum in two years, I will say "I told you so." :)

[johnnowak]

In two years it will have been five years since OS X has had an OpenGL accelerated interface. Five years is a very long time in the technology industry; I'm sure you know that. Linux is farther behind than you realize. After another two years when Linux is boasting about finally implementing this, it will just be something else.

And Linux will likely have a vector-based accelerated GUI before OS X does. What's your point? Gnome still feels faster than OS X as it is anyway... and the difference was much larger five years ago. You know as well as I do that OS X's interface was so slow as to be almost painful five years ago. This comparison isn't valid.

The power and innovative steam engine of comercial software (under proper management) just can't be matched by hobbiest open source hackers.

Ah, the good old "Capitalism is the way to innovation" argument. You can just as easily argue the other way you know...

Linux will always plagged with device driver problems, hardware support, and software compadabilty simply because it's not commerical.

Funny, I've never had these issues, even when using much less popular, PPC versions of Linux.

I also find linux to be much more flexible and customizable. But part of the trade off is the OS is very cluttered.

How so?

At the same time though, it's nice having features there, even though only 5% of the user base will be taking advantage of them.

Same way only 5% of the people are taking advantage of Final Cut Pro, Lightwave, etc... You do know Maya is out for Linux, yes?

[TigerPRO]

I'll take that bet. You say in two years Linux desktop would have caught up with OS X. I say it will be even further behind. If we are still both on this forum in two years, I will say "I told you so." :)

You'll probably forget to do that. You better add an event notification to iCal for 2007 so you remember. lol. ;)

[TigerPRO]

And Linux will likely have a vector-based accelerated GUI before OS X does. What's your point? Gnome still feels faster than OS X as it is anyway... and the difference was much larger five years ago. You know as well as I do that OS X's interface was so slow as to be almost painful five years ago. This comparison isn't valid.

My point is just that Apple will have been pioneering this technology for over half a decade before Linux even gets started. I wasn't around for those early days of Mac OS X, but I can believe you about the slowness factor. I'm not sure quite what causes the choppy window resizing for example. At least moving windows is as smooth as glass. It's my tendency though to believe that the resizing problem isn't related to the OpenGL accelerated interface factor.

Ah, the good old "Capitalism is the way to innovation" argument. You can just as easily argue the other way you know...

Well do keep in mind I provided you with three stellar, irrebukable examples of this: Photoshop, Lightwave, and Final Cut Pro. Gimp is good, blender is good, and I don't think there is even anything like those for video, but they'll never replace these real tools in Hollywood.

Funny, I've never had these issues, even when using much less popular, PPC versions of Linux.

Well I'm glad none of these haven't affected you, but I'm sure you've heard of all the issues with ATI video cards and Wi-Fi adapters for example.

[Timelessblur]

Ok longhorn will have vector base tech in it just FYI
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_4051_03_presentation.asp

[aswitcher]

Does Tiger gives us better firewall control and anything like LittleSnitch to control out going programs?

[tersono]

You know, I was thinking... why are we so excited about Tiger anyway? I thought I'd go down the list of new features highlighted here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/


All I can say is that I'm running Tiger now (I'm an ADC member) and I disagree with just about every point you make.

:-/

[TigerPRO]

Ok longhorn will have vector base tech in it just FYI
http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_4051_03_presentation.asp

Unless they cut that feature to meet the 2006 deadline.

[Timelessblur]

Unless they cut that feature to meet the 2006 deadline.


Well considering it all part of Avalon and Avalon is not being cut it a safe bet that it will be in there

[TigerPRO]

Well considering it all part of Avalon and Avalon is not being cut it a safe bet that it will be in there

But wasn't there something else big besides that new file system that they were going to cut? I thought it was Avalon. I'm not sure anymore.

[john1123]

Microsoft improves Windows with each Service Pack release. A lot of the speed, unix, and compatibility improvements could be released as something equivalent to a service pack instead of a new version of the Mac OS X.

funny that i always thought that Windows Service Packs are Microsoft's attempt to cover up their lousy programming.

i think we should all be happy that Apple makes new products run faster on the same hardware then the older product so we get more life out of a computer.

[TigerPRO]

funny that i always thought that Windows Service Packs are Microsoft's attempt to cover up their lousy programming.

They are. What's the question?

[Maedus]

Ok longhorn will have vector base tech in it just FYI

And someday we'll have computers that are neurally interfaced and people will have ports in the back of their necks and almost everybody will be a cyborg to some extent and scholars will debate on what constitutes a human and there will be this android chick who runs around naked turning invisible and ripping apart tanks with her bare hands and this dude with toothpaste caps for eyes.

But none of this has to do with how Tiger is or is not all that exciting.

[broken_keyboard]

and there will be this android chick who runs around naked turning invisible and ripping apart tanks with her bare hands and this dude with toothpaste caps for eyes.

:) Hahaha... fantastic.

[john1123]

And Linux will likely have a vector-based accelerated GUI before OS X does. What's your point? Gnome still feels faster than OS X as it is anyway... and the difference was much larger five years ago. You know as well as I do that OS X's interface was so slow as to be almost painful five years ago.

i'm sure it was... i also heard that the mac os was crashing a lot and was so unstable that it is still the base of arguments for mac haters TODAY!... well i guess that were the old Mac OS9 days eh?

sorry i couldn't help it :o :rolleyes:

BTW OSX was released on March 24th, 2001

[savar]

And honestly, I'm not trolling. What I am looking forward to the most is Dashboard... and that's sad if you think about it.


If it doesn't get you excited, then ignore the hype. If you don't think the features justify the price tag, then don't buy it. But you are a lone voice here and that makes your post nothing more than a troll.

[Maedus]

i'm sure it was... i also heard that the mac os was crashing a lot and was so unstable that it is still the base of arguments for mac haters TODAY!... well i guess that were the old Mac OS9 days eh?

sorry i couldn't help it :o :rolleyes:

BTW OSX was released on March 24th, 2001

Mac OS X 10.0 was slow, and painfully slow on older machines at the time, but then again, it was like a child learning how to walk. But it was stable! :D I agree with others in that 10.1 should have been 10.0, but we can't change that now, can we? And in the now, Mac OS X is much better and so are the programmers who have gotten used to the new OS. The Mac OS X that was unbearable on my Beige G3 is now quite bearable. Applications are a different story though and Microsoft Office is becoming a nightmare on this computer. Ah, the double edged sword of free Microsoft software at college. It's free, but it locks many into using what is familiar or available instead of what is best. Oh well, at least I still get a chuckle in the PC lab when using Office on Windows since it doesn't feel as polished as the Mac OS X version.

[DavidLeblond]

Well considering it all part of Avalon and Avalon is not being cut it a safe bet that it will be in there

Uh, yeah Avalon is being cut. WinFS, Avalon, and Indigo are all being cut and will be available later for both Windows XP and Longhorn.

[Timelessblur]

Uh, yeah Avalon is being cut. WinFS, Avalon, and Indigo are all being cut and will be available later for both Windows XP and Longhorn.


yeah you dont know what you are talking about. WinFS was the main thing cut. Avalon is being back port to XP. Avalon has been preview to delevopers already and a lot of the base stuff is already in the hads of ATI and nVidia to allow them to make graphic cards. Indigo is already in the hads of delevopers. Where is you proof to back you statement up?

The main reason I made my oringal post was because the linux Tiger agument was getting stupid and really was not going any where so I figure I would try to destract them from it.

I suggest we get this more on topic

[Lacero]

So, is Longhorn going to get rid of the registry? If not, well...http://www3.telus.net/poojja/s/chop.gif

[TigerPRO]

So, is Longhorn going to get rid of the registry? If not, well...http://www3.telus.net/poojja/s/chop.gif

*sacastically* What's a registry?

[nuckinfutz]

Johnnowak

I understand many of your points but I don't think you are really looking beyond the technology and visualizing what 3rd party vendors can do.

I know you do music and likely have plenty of music files on your computer. Spotlight will surely have the capability of you finding audio files etc.

I'm not sold on Linux matching OSX anytime for features because I believe that you get more results by paying people rather than rely on their benevolence.

That being said I love computing and diversity. I look forward to installing linux on a PC and going from there. I think Linux is like the next step for the tinkerer. We know have an OS that allows for tinkering more than building a PC.

I've pored over last years WWDC sessions and culled as much info as I could without actually having the beta of Tiger and I think that Apple has done far more than just their top ten list.

The thing is we all know computers fairly well and want to know the more geeky nuts n bolts stuff but someone like my mother needs to have the broad picture painted for them. She'd identify with Dashboard before Core Image or Data.

Here's what I think will happen upon Tigers shipment. Apple will undoubtedly have bugs and be working on 10.4.1. People will love Spotlight because 10 years ago our hd had very few files compared to today with the advent of multimedia and MP3/AAC files coupled with huge hard drives.

Dashboard will be popular one you find a set of widgets that you can't live without. For me those would be Dictionary, Package Tracker, Language Converter, Currency Converter and probably a few more I don't know I need yet. Yes I could go to my favorite websites and do the same but I want one key access.

.mac sync is going to be cool for keeping the proliferating computers in our lives in sync. I see it as nothing but positive.

Tiger will have a little something for everyone. I'm sure people will like it. Panther wasn't well received until people actually used it. The rest is history.

[TigerPRO]

Tiger will have a little something for everyone. I'm sure people will like it. Panther wasn't well received until people actually used it. The rest is history.

That is an excellent point.

[DavidLeblond]

yeah you dont know what you are talking about. WinFS was the main thing cut. Avalon is being back port to XP. Avalon has been preview to delevopers already and a lot of the base stuff is already in the hads of ATI and nVidia to allow them to make graphic cards. Indigo is already in the hads of delevopers. Where is you proof to back you statement up?

The main reason I made my oringal post was because the linux Tiger agument was getting stupid and really was not going any where so I figure I would try to destract them from it.

I suggest we get this more on topic

Avalon being "backported" to Windows XP means its not going to be a "feature" of Longhorn. That would be like Apple releasing Spotlight to Panther and then saying "Buy Tiger! It has Spotlight!!!!"

Indigo, same deal.

WinFS, same deal.

Therefore these 3 technologies are no longer "Longhorn features."

[Timelessblur]

Avalon being "backported" to Windows XP means its not going to be a "feature" of Longhorn. That would be like Apple releasing Spotlight to Panther and then saying "Buy Tiger! It has Spotlight!!!!"

Indigo, same deal.

WinFS, same deal.

Therefore these 3 technologies are no longer "Longhorn features."


if you read up on it. Avalon "back porting" is to help out XP but a lot of the features that Avalon has will not be able to be used by XP. One of them is the vector graphics. Part of the reason for the back port is to get Devolpers to get start using Avalon sooner since they are not going to start using it until the prodoment OS at the time is using it. And for a while after the longhorn release XP will be that way. So it to start the devepment of Avalon 6 months earilier or so. Indigo I have not followed so I dont even know if that one is being back ported.

WinFS is planed on being added later on to longhorn if I remeber correctly but I would not be suprised that it going to get moved back to the release of I think the OS after longhorn.

More on topic a lot of stuff in tiger seems like a gimic. The new Quick time codex is going to more than likely be pick up by things like Xvid codex pac ect. but it is something nice being added. Right now a lot of it seems very gimicy and kind of weak but it spears developments. Some of the stuff needs to be port over to Windows ASAP mainly so it gets out of the gimic stage and more to a useful stage. One example I will use from iChat. iChat the program does not really need to be ported over but several features in iChat do need to be ported over. Namely the video Confancing part of it needs to be so it can have more of a real world application to it. This is where apples market share is a problem because stuff that requires muliple users to be used a small market plateform/program becomes problemmatic. But hopefully it spures the growth of that market in AIM. I also hope AIM video chatting becomes improved because of iChat.

[aethier]

there are features in tiger that are missing in from os 9. such as the customizable apple menu, tabs, application switcher and other good features no more in os x.

apple menu: so lets see, the apple menu in os 9 had our favorite apps, our recent app / documents. and the control panels (if i am forgetting anything, well i haven't used OS9 since 10.1). ok, so, the apple menu in X has the recent items, and for the most part has what was in the "special" menu in classic. the capability of adding heavily used apps into the apple menu in os 9 is pointless in os x, due to the dock.

tabs: i may be wrong but was that the thing that would list your apps that are open, and you could just click to change?. if so then no need for that in os x due to the dock (though i may be wrong as i am not quite sure if those are the tabs you refered to)

aplication switcher: now that may also be the thing i previosly mentioned which i thought were tabs. if so then see that comment. if not and you meant the "command+tab" well that is still there

[gopher]

Originally Posted by bushgreen
there are features in tiger that are missing in from os 9. such as the customizable apple menu, tabs, application switcher and other good features no more in os x.

These are features which Apple has obviously let third parties fill in the spot. See the section of my FAQ on Making Mac OS X look and function like 9:

http://www.macmaps.com/macosxnative.html#LOOKALIKE

Apple takes a few features from third parties, but just as equally, they have decided to give a few back to third parties to fill in the gap.

[Dagless]

Spotlight= i dont search much, i keep things organised. what im loving about this is Smart folders. that really is something i will use very often for burning quick collections of uni work (the only reason i can think of now, but it will be a life saver)
Dashboard= i probably wont use it all the time, but weather widgets will be very good for me (i do stunt kiting, knowing the strength and direction of the wind is v.important).
Safari RSS= if it aint broke dont fix it! i dont see any problems with Safari and i doubt i will use RSS feeds. so this is a neutral 'enhancement' for me.
Mail= ive been using Mail as my main email app and again ive seen no problems, not a hiccup. apart from one little thing where it bleeps to say i have no messages after checking my first email account and plays no sound after the second account.
iChat= will work with MSN and iTunes. ive never used iChat before but if its going to work with MSN and is better than Messenger then i can kiss bye bye to Messenger :)
Automator= will probably never use it, but then again (like with iPhoto and Garageband) a time will come when its needed.
VoiceOver= can certainly say i wont use.
.Mac Sync= .Mac is poo. i pay £70 for 2 years of unlimited bandwidth+space hosting and i get my own domain too.
Quicktime= i dont care who they do or dont support; QT7 is going to be amazing.

Tiger will be nice :) as well as all these other improvements its going to be a nice OS.

[Mord]

[QUOTE=Applespider]Mail - I've never had a problem with; perhaps I'm just lucky. I have 5,000 messages in mine at the moment over 4 accounts and it's never thrown a wobbly with or without web access. The only time I'd describe it as 'slow' is when someone's sent me something with a few GB of pictures attached when I have to wait a few seconds for them to display. Its current search capabilities are faster than anything else I've used.[/QUOTE

i thought i was alone, i have 5454 messeges and it takes about 7 seconds to do a search like if i want to bring up all the train booking emails i have.

[nuckinfutz]

As much as people claim they organize their computer well they are missing the point of spotlight. Currently I have a folder of PDF documents that contains sub folders by company and that might be further divided by sub folders down to specific areas/product lines within a company.

Sure I can find things quickly I've been using computers for two decades now. However even I realize that every Open/Save I do with PDFs means I have to drill down to the right folder depth. Even if you are meticulous about your computer Spotlight will make you faster and penalize you less in management duties.

In Tiger I will simply toss my PDF into one big flat file folder and let Spotlight pull what I need from the metadata. I can easily search and eradicate duplicate files or prune my system of storing uncessarily large files by creating folders that are set to my rules. No Spotlight isn't going to knock you on your ass but it will help those of us who have become hopelessly anal about our file organization relax a little. I'm guess some butts will become unpuckered rather quickly after some time with Tiger.

Dashboard is nice in that you can instantly reference what would take you 5-10 websites to accomplish. I know people that order stuff online every week. Think they won't like a package tracking widget?? In our new Global Economy it's important to know how the dollar does against the yen, euro and GBP. The unit conversion helps us poor "mericans understand how to translate our wonky system into the metric system. Thank God.

Automator will only be as good as the reach it has to speed up your daily repetitive tasks. Mileage is going to vary wildly with this one. I like anything that furthers scripting/automation myself however. If I use it on one task it'll be worth the effort Apple put into it.

Core Data isn't sexy. But if you're a developer who has an app that can deftly use it's persistent storage your fingers will thank you as they no longer have to type line after line of code. Don't expect instant gratification here but expect to see Carpal Tunnel reduced for Mac programmers LOL

Core Image/Audio/Video- Essential core technologies for multimedia. It's not about making photoshop killers or useless effects but rather making that ibook perform like a Powerbook because it's using the hardware that makes the most sense to complete tasks.

There are 150-200 new features in Tiger. Some are very small and inconsequential. Some will bring a smile to your face despite their apparent inconsequentiality. We all like mature product that oozes well thought out development.

Apple must boil down Tiger to 10 or so bullet points but even things like PDF handling with PDFkit or Image I/O excite me because it means less hassle with PDFs and less hassle with handling image files. Rendezvous or whatever they plan to call it will now work over a subnet. They just erased a businesses primarly problem with using Zeroconf.

Expect the networking stack to improve. Faster and more reliable connects to servers and resources.

Dashboard and Automator are highlighted to keep consumers happy. There are things in Tiger that will appeal to the propellerheads that aren't being discussed. They will once the NDA is over.

[Maedus]

Spotlight= i dont search much, i keep things organised. what im loving about this is Smart folders. that really is something i will use very often for burning quick collections of uni work (the only reason i can think of now, but it will be a life saver)
Dashboard= i probably wont use it all the time, but weather widgets will be very good for me (i do stunt kiting, knowing the strength and direction of the wind is v.important).

I think these two features are going to see the most of their usefulness in the hands of 3rd party developers. Rigth now, there might not be many widgets that get people drooling, but as we start seeing little widgets that pop up and fulfil niche functions that we really didn't want to launch a full feature application for, then it would be awesome. News ticker with article links, sports scores, easy widget access to our favorite information/encyclopedia sites, a picture frame widget that has a slideshow of our family pictures we can look at between busy spells, a widget that shows the clipboard so we can see what we have pasted to it easily and we can further manipluate the clipboard text before repasting it. Things we want instant access to and don't want to launch independent apps for.

As for spotlight, the more I hear about it, the more I feel like it will be worthwhile. I thought "I'm pretty organized too and when I get a new computer with Tiger preinstalled, I'll make sure everything that goes on it is filed away properly and I won't need to search so much." And then I realized how many log files from conversations I have and documents I have that have generic titles (e.g. L308 Paper 1) and so on and realized that Spotlight could be pretty useful. And maybe you only use the more advanced features once in a blue moon, but at least you're not wanting to kill somebody for the feature on the blue moon. :p And plus I'm curious to see how 3rd party developers will utilize Spotlight. Then I think you'll be more excited about Spotlight beyond the smart folders.

And on a side note, I'm not trying to correct you or educate you or lecture you, raggedjimmi. Your post just provided a great starting point for mine. :o I started to feel like I was ragging on you in my post when in fact I'm trying to expand on your already good point! :D

[daveL]

Nice post, Nuck.

P.S. It finally dawned on me a few weeks back what your user name "means".

[Zaty]

I'm never did learn what Windows 98 SE really did have over Windows 98, but if that is the only feature they looked forward too or could remember, then only looking forward to Dashboard or XCode or whatever part of the new OS that an individual likes isn't so pathetic then.



Just to shortly answer your question: Windows 98 SE was basically a Service Pack that fixed a few things and made the system Y2K compatible. It wasn't called Windows 98 SP1 because SPs were for professional editions of Windows (aka NT 4.0 at the time only). It also shipped with new versions of IE and WMP. Since all those new features were available for the original Windows 98 as well, no one in their right mind payed for the upgrade.

[Maedus]

I can easily search and eradicate duplicate files.

Even if I never used Spotlight for anything else beyond that feature, it will make Tiger worth it. But it sounds like Spotlight will allow me to take the 7 or 8 copies of my internal hard drive that I have archived on my external (yes, I have a small internal hard drive) before several dumb things I've done with Mac OS X installs or reinstalls or upgrades, and allow me to finally organize all the duplicates into one, complete and concise location instead of having ghost hard drives scattered through my external.

[Maedus]

Just to shortly answer your question: Windows 98 SE was basically a Service Pack that fixed a few things and made the system Y2K compatible. It wasn't called Windows 98 SP1 because SPs were for professional editions of Windows (aka NT 4.0 at the time only). It also shipped with new versions of IE and WMP. Since all those new features were available for the original Windows 98 as well, no one in their right mind payed for the upgrade.

Haha, sweet. I wasn't expecting an answer to that, but it was good to hear one. Thanks. Haha, now I wonder how many people were not in their right mind and did pay for the upgrade. And you don't have to answer that one, Zaty. ;) :p

[bankshot]

But you are a lone voice here and that makes your post nothing more than a troll.

Gah. Not going with the herd mentality is being a troll? That's absolutely ridiculous. Honestly, this is about the only thing that bugs me about this community. There seem to be a few people like this who believe that if you don't absolutely praise Apple and if you aren't totally enthusiastic about new products, you must be a troll. What a bunch of hogwash. I've seen a few of these people on this thread.

The person who started this thread had some valid points. It was meant as a starting point for discussion, yet several people jumped all over him labeling him a "troll", "idiot", calling him "wrong", etc. How can someone be wrong in a matter of opinion? He doesn't feel like many of the new features will be useful to him, how can that be wrong? I know this is a site for Mac fans, but sometimes it still boggles my mind to see the amount of over-the-top fanboyism that creeps in here from time to time. :eek:

Newsflash: sometimes people have different opinions that are perfectly valid. Maybe they don't have all the information (doesn't mean they're an idiot or troll, just less informed), maybe they haven't seen the light, and or maybe -- just maybe -- their needs and desires in computing are different from yours. I'm sure there are legions of people for whom most of the new features in Tiger will not be very useful. Some of them simply won't change their work habits to take advantage of new features. Others simply won't need them.

For example, I think Automator looks pretty cool, but I just can't see myself using it for much, if anything at all. I'm an old Unix guy, and when I need to automate things, I'm much more comfortable with the control I get under the hood. Maybe it'll have something new that I'll use, but my guess is not.

I'm very much looking forward to Tiger, but I saw the original post (and those of most doubters) as valid. If you disagree, don't call them names like an immature kid, initiate a discussion describing your point of view and try to understand where the other person is coming from. Doing so sure makes this place a lot more fun and interesting to be around. :D

[Maedus]

I'm very much looking forward to Tiger, but I saw the original post (and those of most doubters) as valid. If you disagree, don't call them names like an immature kid, initiate a discussion describing your point of view and try to understand where the other person is coming from. Doing so sure makes this place a lot more fun and interesting to be around. :D

I agree, bankshot, but I just want to point out that most of the people in this forum have been great people and for the most part, this thread has been a polite and intelligent debate about Tiger that has been useful in helping point out some of the benefits of Tiger that are not obvious or promoted. I just wanted to congratulate those of us who have been great posters and have made this thread and this forum worthwhile so that they're not overshadowed by a few bad apples. Hehe, apples. My puns suck. :p

[MacsRgr8]

Nice post, Nuck.

P.S. It finally dawned on me a few weeks back what your user name "means".

He he he... makes me remind me of calling his name the funniest over at Macrumors a couple of months ago :D

BTW.. how a seemingly trolly-started thread turns out to be one of the best Tiger discussions thread.

[nuckinfutz]

Nice post, Nuck.

P.S. It finally dawned on me a few weeks back what your user name "means".


hehehehe. I've heard that before. I'm glad this thread is back on target. I apologize to John Nowak for my pissy attitude.

The person who started this thread had some valid points. It was meant as a starting point for discussion, yet several people jumped all over him labeling him a "troll", "idiot", calling him "wrong", etc. How can someone be wrong in a matter of opinion?

It's not his opinion that peopel were upset or disagreed with. It was perhaps his lack of information regarding why he feels the way he does. Keep in mind it seems that everyone who doesn't feel like Tiger is "the bees knees" laces their op with such negativity it's hard to believe they went in with an open mind.

Yes we've had search before in previous OS. Today's search is better.

Yes we've had Sherlock or "web based apps" Dashboard is better

Yes we've had Applescript....Automator is better.

Tiger isn't amazing because it brings forth new "never before seen" technology. Tiger is amazing because it brings together these technolgies that we've seen before in a way that will increase the odds that people use them in large numbers and continue to use them. That's what computing is all about really. Taking rather mundane stuff and making it all work.

Johnnowak had good points and frankly we won't know how many of those points Apple addressed until Tiger ships. I welcome Apple improving my user experience whenever they can.

[shidoshi]

Just wanted to say a few things.

I currently have around 350,000 files on my computer. Spotlight, for me, is a God send. No matter how hard you try to keep everything organized, at some point it just gets tough. The thing about searching now is that you have a small number of factors you can search for - file name, type, things like that. With Spotlight, your options are at least doubled. If you have files with decent metadata, you can then get yourself to a point where it becomes near impossible to not find a file. (I know, you'll still be able to do so, especially if you files DON'T have decent metadata.)

Dashboard isn't groundbreaking, but it will be nice. I talk to my girlfriend in Japan using iChat's voice chat, and I often find myself needing to look up a word in Japanese, or using an app to change numbers to or from Metric. Having both of those options at the push of one button will be nice, and will allow me to not have to keep opening up those seperate apps. (I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to keep a lot of things running all at once.)

[James Philp]

Will run on a G3 - Great!
3 Gb HD- Ouch (a bit) But no more that 10.3 currently uses (will have to somehow delete 10.3 while installing 10.4!) Don't have 3 Gb left!
256MB RAM - getting close, but hopefully 384 OK!?
No iChat AV for me though - no biggie, don't use it!
Fingers crossed, and it'll work.

[1macker1]

I'll join in with the guy who's not excited. I'm looking through the features..and Spotlight and Dashboard seem to be the big new programs in Tiger. I've been using launchdock and the widget thing has already been done. Where is the innovation? But i'll upgrade just to have the latest OS, just in case apple decides not to support Panther.

[leandroc76]

Yes speed will be enhanced by far with Tiger. On average I've heard that just about everything is twice as fast with G4 systems which ARE NOT 64bit processors. Considering this and that Apple supports older machines, don't doubt that Tiger will be twice as fast on your system. It is twice as fast for G4 systems so why not even faster on yours. I heard that the slower the machine the more you would notice the speed improvements. Would you want to make your system faster for $129 or do you want to spend more and get a new computer? Don't complain because Tiger will be a good deal. This type of complaint is unreasonable! Yes, saying you know something although you are ignorant about it a form of stupidity in my book. And as you pointed out before I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Where is the data that proves this?

[Barham]

For me it boils down to this:

Major OpenGL performance increase at launch. Incremental additions with point releases. I'm the rare breed (that seems to be more common these days) Mac gamer. Mostly just WoW, but any significant boost or progress is worth the $70 (ed discount).

Quicktime 7. HD video that is truly scalable? Count me in!

Safari. I love the browser (and I've used Firefox), any performance boost (especially in the realm of 50%) is worth it for me.

-Hasta

[thequicksilver]

Quicktime 7. HD video that is truly scalable? Count me in!

Just to say, Quicktime 7 is not a new feature exclusive to Tiger. Apple are being misleading here, as it's taking up a prominent part of the Tiger page, but Quicktime 7 will come for some lower versions of OS X as well as Windows.

[ken801]

I've been working with Tiger, and don't get the point of Spotlight. Sure, it's handy to have it right up in your menubar to click on from anywhere. But once you do find a file you need, YOU CAN"T DRAG AND DROP IT! You can double-click it, but what if you just want it on the desktop for later, or want it in iTunes to follow the song that's playing? No DRAG AND DROP is ridiculous.
As for Finder, when I just click on my Firewire drive, it crashes the OS. Black screen, every time.

Ken

[gopher]

I've been working with Tiger, and don't get the point of Spotlight. Sure, it's handy to have it right up in your menubar to click on from anywhere. But once you do find a file you need, YOU CAN"T DRAG AND DROP IT! You can double-click it, but what if you just want it on the desktop for later, or want it in iTunes to follow the song that's playing? No DRAG AND DROP is ridiculous.
As for Finder, when I just click on my Firewire drive, it crashes the OS. Black screen, every time.

Ken

Ken I would start a separate thread for your topic. You sound like you have a Firewire drive, firewire cable, or power manager issue that is causing your screen to go black.

http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69

Someone who has a release version of Tiger should be able to help you by April 29th when more people have it in hand.

[daveL]

Just to say, Quicktime 7 is not a new feature exclusive to Tiger. Apple are being misleading here, as it's taking up a prominent part of the Tiger page, but Quicktime 7 will come for some lower versions of OS X as well as Windows.
And when will that be? I doubt it will be any time soon.

[reidab]

Spotlight may be similar to quicksilver for some... but I think I'll use them for entirely different things. Spotlight supports all of the IPTC annotations on photos and as someone who has carefully annotated my library of 10k+ digital photos, I see spotlight as being worth the price of tiger simply for the quick, integrated, image searching alone.

Even with tiger, I'll probably still use quicksilver for launching and all of the other things that it's good at, but ooohhh, fast image searching, come to me.

[iindigo]

I've been working with Tiger, and don't get the point of Spotlight. Sure, it's handy to have it right up in your menubar to click on from anywhere. But once you do find a file you need, YOU CAN"T DRAG AND DROP IT! You can double-click it, but what if you just want it on the desktop for later, or want it in iTunes to follow the song that's playing? No DRAG AND DROP is ridiculous.
As for Finder, when I just click on my Firewire drive, it crashes the OS. Black screen, every time.

Ken


I don't know what build you have... but if it's not at least build 8A425, your stability statements don't count...

And yes, you can drag and drop, just hit "Show All" then you can drag to your heart's content.