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soulreaver99
Jul 28, 2011, 11:51 PM
It does have some nice features and looks prettier but it's buggy as hell. Here's what I've experienced.

1. Hate the default settings. Can't get used to the "natural" scrolling and the default settings in finder.

2. AFP and SMB compatibility issues. Right when you install this you get this rude awakening when you can't login to your NAS drives. Luckily there is a workaround for this stupid problem. http://www.alexanderwilde.com/2011/04/os-x-lion-connection-error-with-afp-and-workaround/

3. Screensaver randomly starts. Right at the login screen, a random screensaver just starts out of nowhere. When you don't touch the computer for a split second, it could start. Or sometimes, you walk away for 5 minutes, it starts! It's got a mind of it's own!!! Deleting the screensaver plist in the Library directory sort of fixed it. Still acts randmly but not as bad (knock on wood).

I remember when I went from Leopard to Snow, it didn't have this many problems!



macfanboy
Jul 28, 2011, 11:53 PM
I only read up to number 1 and figured your next 2 posts would be just as idiotic. Vista wasn't bad because it defaulted to the 'wrong options'. thats why they are CHANGEABLE. they have to be set to something in the first place.

JUST CHANGE THE SETTING!'

EDIT: just read the next two, and i havent been experiencing any of those issues.

brand
Jul 28, 2011, 11:55 PM
The first and second item in your list are not bugs. That leaves the third item on the list. I don't see how you are calling a single issue "buggy as he'll".

clank72
Jul 29, 2011, 12:03 AM
Nope. Not even close :-)

aziatiklover
Jul 29, 2011, 12:09 AM
Sounds like the TS is more buggy than the OS itself! I haven't had any bugs or issues at all. Is it me or ppl are just insane about bugs? I just spend more time in settings preference to make the mac suitable to my work environment.

xraydoc
Jul 29, 2011, 12:25 AM
No. Not even close.

Granted it's not a revolutionary change to the Mac OS, just mildly evolutionary. But so far its been perfectly stable for me on 4 different machines and doesn't nag the user like Vista did.

Vista's big problems were with app compatibility, hardware compatibility and user nag-ware.

cocacolakid
Jul 29, 2011, 12:32 AM
There are some actual bugs, and they will likely (hopefully) be fixed as soon as they roll out 10.8.1, which I hope is in the next couple of weeks.

As for the scrolling problem, just uncheck Natural Scrolling in settings.

But no, this is not Apple's Vista. To be Apple's Vista, Lion would have to not support most printers, most video cards, most drivers for other hardware, crash apps randomly, have MANY different apps not be compatible with the OS, period (and I'm not talking about Rosetta/PPC apps, Vista had major compatibility problems with then-current software).

In short, Vista was a complete nightmare for the first year of it's existence. It took MS about a year to fix most of those issues, but at that point they turned their attention to Windows 7 and screwed over anyone who had purchased Vista. I have friends with Vista machines, had 2 myself, and those were some of the major reasons that eventually drove me to a Mac.

saving107
Jul 29, 2011, 01:10 AM
You can only come up with 3 issues and now all the sudden OS X Lion is comparable to Windows Vista, wow.


I remember when I went from Leopard to Snow, it didn't have this many problems!

So Data loss is not a bigger issue then your Screensaver randomly starting?

Apple acknowledges Snow Leopard data loss issue
For the past month, some Mac OS X users have been reporting their personal data missing after logging into their guest accounts, and Apple now says it's working on finding a fix.



http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-10373064-260.html#ixzz1TTKOwS5d

me_94501
Jul 29, 2011, 01:12 AM
OK hear me out here: I'd say the Vista comparison is apt, but not for the reasons that everyone thinks.

Vista was a shift for Windows, and required users to adapt to some new ways of doing things. Lion is much the same--something of a departure from prior Mac OS X versions that requires users to adapt to some significant changes.

This, of course, doesn't mean Lion is going to be a massive failure in the marketplace like Vista is--the early sales numbers suggest that it won't be. And this doesn't mean that Lion is bad--that isn't true either. But Vista was a shift and Lion is a shift. That's where the Vista-Lion comparison lies, IMO.

macfanboy
Jul 29, 2011, 01:13 AM
I'd say the Vista comparison is apt, but not for the reasons that everyone thinks (hear me out before hitting that down-vote button!). Vista was a shift for Windows, and required users to adapt to some new ways of doing things. Lion is much the same--something of a departure from prior Mac OS X versions that requires users to adapt to some significant changes.

Thats certainly not why Vista was considered an utter failure

me_94501
Jul 29, 2011, 01:15 AM
Thats certainly not why Vista was considered an utter failure

Well of course not. And I wasn't implying that Lion is or will be a failure.

Icy1007
Jul 29, 2011, 03:01 AM
OK hear me out here: I'd say the Vista comparison is apt, but not for the reasons that everyone thinks.

Vista was a shift for Windows, and required users to adapt to some new ways of doing things. Lion is much the same--something of a departure from prior Mac OS X versions that requires users to adapt to some significant changes.

This, of course, doesn't mean Lion is going to be a massive failure in the marketplace like Vista is--the early sales numbers suggest that it won't be. And this doesn't mean that Lion is bad--that isn't true either. But Vista was a shift and Lion is a shift. That's where the Vista-Lion comparison lies, IMO.

Vista operated the exact same as XP except many programs didn't work or they worked poorly. The OS also had that annoying UAC enabled by default. Besides that, Vista was just a shinier and more transparent version of XP.

siwsan
Jul 29, 2011, 03:58 AM
There are some actual bugs, and they will likely (hopefully) be fixed as soon as they roll out 10.8.1

You are absolutely right. We should skip Lion and wait for iOS XI 10.8.

And yes, Lion is Apple's Vista. The "Back to the Mac" slogan simply doesn't apply to reality.

adder7712
Jul 29, 2011, 04:24 AM
At least my applications didn't break after Lion upgrade (yes, all of the software that I commonly use still works), unlike Vista which had a plethora of driver and software incompatibility. That's solved by now but upgrade to 7 if you're still running Vista.

iHateMacs
Jul 29, 2011, 04:25 AM
I used to love Vista. Never had a single problem with it.

adder7712
Jul 29, 2011, 04:26 AM
iHateMacs I honestly thought you were a troll. Sorry. :(

mabaker
Jul 29, 2011, 05:16 AM
I cannot tell how many times I smile when ppl have posted: Leopard is Apple’s vista, Snow Leopard is Apple’s vista.

It would be just natural for the continuation to happen with Lion…

Antowns
Jul 29, 2011, 05:46 AM
Not really, there's a bug in Safari at the minute which is causing it to hinder the overall performance of the system. Once it gets fixed I'm sure it'll be fine. Though I'm using it on a Mid-2010 i5 MBP so I'm not sure how it affects the older systems.

Hellhammer
Jul 29, 2011, 05:51 AM
Vista is, and has always been, a poor comparison. Vista was extremely buggy and slow, you could even call it unusable. However, Lion is mostly a very stable OS. Sure, there are some bugs but that is always the case with .0 release. 10.7.1 should be out fairly soon though, SP1 took ages to come for Vista.

ZipZap
Jul 29, 2011, 05:54 AM
Since Apple prides iteself on offering computers to the non-computer literate, I think Lion is absolutely the Windows Vista of the Mac world.

So, so many issues and you have to be computer literate to resolve them. Drivers not working, programs not running, 64 bit clobbering stuff....

maflynn
Jul 29, 2011, 05:59 AM
This same question/thread came up with Snow Leopard when it was first released.

MS over promised and under delivered Vista. It was bloated, a bit buggy, slow and few real new features after 5 years worth of work.

Lion has many new features, its a bit bloated, but it appears to run rather fast but is buggy.

In the end Microsoft fixed vista but the damage was done, the perception that Vista was a poor OS was ingrained in business and consumers alike,

So the question is, how is the perception of Lion, while Apple has stated 1 million downloads, how are the normal consumers viewing this? Many people here love it here, but also many people here have rolled back to SL for one reason or another. I'm not sure MacRumor's population qualifies as normal consumers ;)

Jagardn
Jul 29, 2011, 06:01 AM
Since Apple prides iteself on offering computers to the non-computer literate, I think Lion is absolutely the Windows Vista of the Mac world.

So, so many issues and you have to be computer literate to resolve them. Drivers not working, programs not running, 64 bit clobbering stuff....

Most non computer literate people will not be running the variety of software/hardware that all the people with problems are having. And more than likely the non literate will not even know that there is an OS upgrade. Vista is not even a relative comparison.

paulsalter
Jul 29, 2011, 08:27 AM
while Apple has stated 1 million downloads,

Any idea how this compares to previous os x releases ?

spt
Jul 29, 2011, 08:45 AM
It does have some nice features and looks prettier but it's buggy as hell. Here's what I've experienced.

1. Hate the default settings. Can't get used to the "natural" scrolling and the default settings in finder.

I think this is just a matter of what you're used to. If you don't wan't to try it, just turn it off. I do agree though that it may have been wiser to have the old default.

2. AFP and SMB compatibility issues. Right when you install this you get this rude awakening when you can't login to your NAS drives. Luckily there is a workaround for this stupid problem. http://www.alexanderwilde.com/2011/04/os-x-lion-connection-error-with-afp-and-workaround/

This is due to improvements in the OS that are incompatible with some non-apple implementations of Appletalk. After I fixed my Linux based NAS and Time Machine, I found responsiveness to have improved quite a lot.

3. Screensaver randomly starts. Right at the login screen, a random screensaver just starts out of nowhere. When you don't touch the computer for a split second, it could start. Or sometimes, you walk away for 5 minutes, it starts! It's got a mind of it's own!!! Deleting the screensaver plist in the Library directory sort of fixed it. Still acts randmly but not as bad (knock on wood).

I remember when I went from Leopard to Snow, it didn't have this many problems!

It seems you may have been a bit unfortunate, though a screensaver problem doesn't seem to be that important...

Gemütlichkeit
Jul 29, 2011, 09:00 AM
Couldn't disagree more.

andyroochoo
Jul 29, 2011, 09:05 AM
It's a bit harsh to compare the two and anyway,

Everyone knows that antennae gate was apples vista

/sarcasm.

viscanti
Jul 29, 2011, 09:11 AM
It's a .0 release. EVERY OS has some issues and bugs on initial release. That's just how technology works. Vista broke compatibility with a lot of older programs, and required such significant changes that a new version of Windows was necessary. Lion just adds a couple optional options that some people find useful and some don't. I guess I'm not seeing the comparison, but then again, this isn't the first .0 release of an OS that I've seen.

gentlefury
Jul 29, 2011, 09:12 AM
You couldn't be more wrong!

sine-nomine
Jul 29, 2011, 09:16 AM
I hate to say it, but I'd almost be willing to call Lion Apple's Me. But the Vista comparisons seem pretty apt, too.

Vista seemed like half-baked design decisions that were poorly implemented, change merely for the sake of it, and a refreshingly capricious approach to quality control, which IMO sums up Lion pretty well. While I didn't like the changes to Exposé in Snow Leopard, I did like the overall OS really well...but Lion is the only version of OS X I have ever used that I really just hate. I hate using my computer now. When I had to use Vista at work after they switched from XP, I had a similar feeling (not that I had much love for XP, don't get me wrong).

And before anyone jumps on me, there's really no point to switching back to SL because Lion is what OS X is now, whether I like it or not. But I do reserve the right to lament the fact that pretty much everything that made me love my Mac so much back in the day has died.

Gemütlichkeit
Jul 29, 2011, 09:17 AM
Some of these threads on here are really over dramatic haha. "Sorry, but Apple FAIL" is another thread. :rolleyes:

dbalone
Jul 29, 2011, 09:21 AM
It is not even close to Windows Vista. The only people who truly believe this are people who hate Apple for some reason in the first place. Apple could make OSX Pussycat and still out do Windows Vista.

As many others have said every initial OSX release has had some bugs. I can remember when Leopard came out and no none wanted to move from Tiger because it was so stable and Leopard gave them nothing they would ever use. Well guess what Tiger was stable, Leopard became stable and Lion will become stable.

I think part of the problem here to is there are so many new people with Apple products than ever before.

OllyW
Jul 29, 2011, 09:23 AM
Any idea how this compares to previous os x releases ?

It's 1 million more downloads than any other release of OS X. ;)

Snow Leopard was the fastest selling release of OS X with 2 million sales (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/30/apple-sells-two-million-copies-of-leopard-in-first-weekend/) in it's first weekend.

paulsalter
Jul 29, 2011, 09:25 AM
It's 1 million more downloads than any other release of OS X. ;)

Snow Leopard was the fastest selling release of OS X with 2 million sales (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/30/apple-sells-two-million-copies-of-leopard-in-first-weekend/) in it's first weekend.

:o, should have worded that differently

thanks for link, thats what is was after :)

baryon
Jul 29, 2011, 09:32 AM
I think Lion needs a few more months of heavy tweaking from Apple, with changed/different features. I'm especially pointing at Mission Control here, which is a giant mess and a big failure in my view.

The reason I find Lion to be annoying and worse than Snow Leopard because of:

The tiny thumbnails at the top in Mission Control, as opposed to the large Spaces arrange in a grid, relatively positioned to each other.
The linear arrangement of the desktops as opposed to a grid.
No way to view all windows on your computer at once, only one desktop at a time, but even then they aren't arranged efficiently and they hide each other.
The difficult to do 4-finger pinch/un-pinch gestures.
Finder's new icon arrangement rarely works (Arrange by, Sort by, Clean up by is a mess and impossible to understand).

NutsNGum
Jul 29, 2011, 09:39 AM
I wouldn't call a few bugs and some UI changes a catastrophe.

podsorcerer09
Jul 29, 2011, 10:54 AM
One bug at the login screen and you're calling it buggy as hell? Quite frankly I don't know why people keep calling Lion a failure on these boards. Many of us have yet to have a problem and many of us have adjusted fine. Natural scrolling took me about an hour to get used to, and now it happens by accident on other computers. Mission control changed the way we used Expose and spaces, but it didn't break them. If you're having trouble adjusting to Lion, you probably shouldn't have been using it to begin with. The changes really aren't all that drastic. A comparison to Vista is also not apt if you ask me. People don't use this comparison to imply that Lion is an evolution the same way that Vista was an evolution. They use it to say that Lion is an absolute train wreck, which is absolutely not true in any sense of the word. In addition to that, users that are having maybe one or two problems have jumped on to this bandwagon and are calling it Vista for the sole reason that they can't figure out the changes.

Personally, when I used Vista on school computers when I had to, there weren't many issues that I noticed, honestly for me it wasn't as bad as everyone was making it out to be. That being said, this chicken-little-sky-is-falling approach is what caused me to get my first macbook instead of a new dell or sony with Vista installed when it was time for me to get a new computer.

FroMann
Jul 29, 2011, 10:59 AM
Nope, it works right out of the box (or would it be download?). Compared to my ma's Vista machine which needs maintenance or a fix every 3-6 months, Nor is it dog slow.

iphonewizard
Jul 29, 2011, 11:18 AM
I would not compare it to Vista but Lion sure seems to have several bugs and issues. I did a erase of my hard drive and a time machine restore and I'm very happy with SL. I experienced most issues that users here are reporting and a few more. I need apple reliability and quality I have come to expect and not to be a beta tester. I need my battery life, calm processes, and something stable. I don't need a Mac X OS to act like a iphone IOS. That is what I have my iphone for. I'm going to wait for a while to see if they can work out these issues. Apple are you reading our post? I hope so.

cocacolakid
Jul 29, 2011, 02:34 PM
You are absolutely right. We should skip Lion and wait for iOS XI 10.8.

:)

Papanate
Jul 29, 2011, 02:43 PM
No it's not. Vista wasn't as bad as the whiners/MS Haters made it out to be.

Lion is a major change in how Apple approaches an OS. Early adopters can expect issues if they haven't researched their requirements in advance of upgrading.

xraydoc
Jul 29, 2011, 02:53 PM
Since Apple prides iteself on offering computers to the non-computer literate, I think Lion is absolutely the Windows Vista of the Mac world.

So, so many issues and you have to be computer literate to resolve them. Drivers not working, programs not running, 64 bit clobbering stuff....

Show me where the 64-bitness of Lion is causing Vista-scale incompatibilities.

Show me where tons of programs aren't working correctly with Lion (except for Quicken 2007 - when Intuit has had 4 YEARS to modernize their app. Can't blame Apple for that!).

What drivers aren't working for you? PCIe cards like SATA interfaces? They needed new drivers for 10.6, too, you know (and 10.5, and 10.4...).

What other issues? Hiding the Library folder? Personally I think that's a smart move. I've seen too many people delete stuff from inside their and render their apps or whole user account inoperable. Inverse scrolling? Don't like it? One click and you're back to "normal." Trouble with Linux-based NAS file servers for Time Machine - I might grant you this one, but I suspect the changes were made to improve reliability. Besides, Drobo, one of the major vendors, has already updated their NAS units' firmwares.

I'm just not seeing the PR failure of Lion on a Vista-like scale. Sorry.

Caolan96
Jul 29, 2011, 02:55 PM
Obviously Vista had some problems, however it was made out to be worse than it actually was. In my 3 years of using Vista at school, and on a PC at home (I continue to use it until this very day), I've never had any problems.

However, Lion for me is no where near Apple's Vista. To me, Vista feels polished, and natural. Everything seems more mature; animations, full screen, mission control, gestures - everything). As for the natural scrolling, and some other problems you mentioned above, your solutions lie in System Preferences. I spend around 15/20 minutes exploring preferences when I upgraded to Lion, and changed the settings to make my Lion experience more enjoyable, and easier to adapt to.

I for one love Lion, and have only found 1 bug so far, and it only affects me around once a week, and I'm sure it will be fixed in a future update.

It's early days for Lion, there's bound to be bugs. Just have patience and it'll be fixed soon enough.

Regards,
Caolán.

ideal.dreams
Jul 29, 2011, 03:36 PM
In no way should Lion be classified as "Apple's Vista". Just because you don't like the default settings doesn't make the operating system as a whole bad.

And just because you have problems with yours doesn't mean you should make the generalization that everyone else has the same problem. Fact of the matter is, there are a LOT of people, myself included, that aren't having problems with Lion.

You also have to look at the fact that it's brand new. Apple couldn't have tested every possible aspect of the system; there's bound to be bugs which I'm sure will be worked out in the next few updates.

mrchinchilla
Jul 29, 2011, 03:50 PM
Nope. People said the same thing about 10.6. Which, in my opinion, was the best OS I've ever used, and Lion isn't disappointing me.

Sycren
Jul 30, 2011, 01:29 AM
I wouldn't call a few bugs and some UI changes a catastrophe.

How about crashing every 10 minutes, blank screens with perpetual spinning balls of doom.. Im back on snow leopard

Lord Appleseed
Jul 30, 2011, 01:42 AM
People who compare Lion to Vista have obviously never used either long enough, or just had plain bad luck with Lion.
Lion has a few minor bugs that can be resolved with ease, also the changes to spaces and turning expose to mission control are hardly a failure but dependent on personal preference. I for my part like Lion more than SL, its easier to use, optically enhanced, and fast.

Now for Vista: it had like a nearly non-existing compatibility to XP, constant driver problems, endless glitches and bugs and security holes that represented supermassive black-holes.

me_94501
Jul 30, 2011, 01:49 AM
I think Lion needs a few more months of heavy tweaking from Apple, with changed/different features. I'm especially pointing at Mission Control here, which is a giant mess and a big failure in my view.

The reason I find Lion to be annoying and worse than Snow Leopard because of:

The tiny thumbnails at the top in Mission Control, as opposed to the large Spaces arrange in a grid, relatively positioned to each other.
The linear arrangement of the desktops as opposed to a grid.
No way to view all windows on your computer at once, only one desktop at a time, but even then they aren't arranged efficiently and they hide each other.
The difficult to do 4-finger pinch/un-pinch gestures.
Finder's new icon arrangement rarely works (Arrange by, Sort by, Clean up by is a mess and impossible to understand).


Agreed on these points.

I don't have a problem with Mission Control's existence, but I think it should have been treated as something separate from all-windows Exposé, not as a replacement. For instance, you could use Mission Control to see everything on the system; use Exposé to see all windows on the current desktop.

tug
Jul 30, 2011, 02:07 AM
I would not compare it to Vista but Lion sure seems to have several bugs and issues. I did a erase of my hard drive and a time machine restore and I'm very happy with SL. I experienced most issues that users here are reporting and a few more. I need apple reliability and quality I have come to expect and not to be a beta tester. I need my battery life, calm processes, and something stable. I don't need a Mac X OS to act like a iphone IOS. That is what I have my iphone for. I'm going to wait for a while to see if they can work out these issues. Apple are you reading our post? I hope so.

i totally agree, I'm just about to do the same, then wait till its all sorted.

oh, has anybody managed to get i tunes 10.4 yet? its available but you can't d/l it cos software update opens & tells you theres no update!

thats if it doesn't crash before hand :mad: like most other apps do if left to run a while. s/l WELCOME BACK. you've been missed.

blunderboy
Jul 30, 2011, 02:18 AM
I think that it just takes some getting used to. I've had Lion for the past few days, and I've pretty much got used to it. There are some things that are different from Snow Leopard, but the changes are more incremental than radical, and it's definitely not Windows Vista. For one, Lion didn't break all of my apps, nor did it cause massive compatibility problems that Vista did. People aren't running out and buying all-new peripherals for their Macs like they were doing when Vista came out four years ago. Apple didn't add in the irritating "User Account Control" that dims your screen every time you install or run a new application or driver. Just...ugh. There's just no comparison.

Cheule
Jul 30, 2011, 03:02 AM
The thread title, as well as tone to several posts make me wonder if this is a troll were dealing with.

NutsNGum
Jul 30, 2011, 03:54 AM
How about crashing every 10 minutes, blank screens with perpetual spinning balls of doom.. Im back on snow leopard

Did you try reinstalling it? I've been using it on my 2011 iMac without issue.

Mikey86uk
Jul 30, 2011, 04:52 AM
Did you try reinstalling it? I've been using it on my 2011 iMac without issue.

i guess use lucky then, my 2011 iMac isn't coping to well with Lion, and you shouldn't have to do a clean install! :rolleyes:

andyroochoo
Jul 30, 2011, 05:03 AM
The thread title, as well as tone to several posts make me wonder if this is a troll were dealing with.

why do you think that? cant people post on marcumors and open up a discussion on the problems they are having with mac os x lion?

Please share us your thoughts of why you think there is a troll in our midst.

whats more upsetting than a troll is that there are people on here who think just because they arent having problems, then none exist and will follow apple blindly. worse than a troll in my eyes.

ps, we arent "dealing" with anything, we are having a healthy discussion!!!! no one is forced to post on here.

Bernard SG
Jul 30, 2011, 07:11 AM
oh, has anybody managed to get i tunes 10.4 yet? its available but you can't d/l it cos software update opens & tells you theres no update!

Just downloading from Apple's website.

paulsalter
Jul 30, 2011, 07:13 AM
just updated iTunes today

it now uses twice the ram as the previous version :mad:

dog24
Jul 30, 2011, 07:40 AM
My only complaint is that the Mission Control sometimes overlaps 2 windows on toop of each other blocking the desktops so you can't click them, very annoying. Other than that I have no problems with Lion and it works way faster for me.

kirky29
Jul 30, 2011, 07:43 AM
Nope, Lion runs better than Snow Leopard for me, in pretty much every way that I've come across.

Sycren
Jul 30, 2011, 03:24 PM
Anyone who is experiencing crashing using google chrome? Updating to a dev build seems to have solved the hundreds of errors that I was receiving which caused me to abandon Lion.

TPadden
Jul 30, 2011, 03:31 PM
It's a .0 release. EVERY OS has some issues and bugs on initial release. That's just how technology works......I guess I'm not seeing the comparison, but then again, this isn't the first .0 release of an OS that I've seen.

I've been using computers since the early 70's hence seen plenty of .0 releases. :cool:

For me the comparison with Vista comes in that only twice in all that time have I returned to use the previous OS until some of the initial issues and bugs were fixed. :(

Tozzi
Jul 30, 2011, 04:30 PM
Well, late (not early) 70's here.
Anyway, I've seen my share of .0 releases as well.
Vista didn't give me any problems, back then, nor did Snow Leopard.
Lion is a nightmare.

Jagardn
Jul 30, 2011, 04:33 PM
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lffp50bv7O1qg7bz2o1_400.jpg

That's all I got. :rolleyes:

TPadden
Jul 30, 2011, 04:38 PM
......Vista didn't give me any problems, back then, nor did Snow Leopard.
Lion is a nightmare.

MS, unlike Apple, has little or no control over hardware. Vista's major jump in resource usage from XP caused most of the problems with Vista (we won't mention Millennium :D) .

Hugh
Jul 30, 2011, 06:13 PM
i totally agree, I'm just about to do the same, then wait till its all sorted.

oh, has anybody managed to get i tunes 10.4 yet? its available but you can't d/l it cos software update opens & tells you theres no update!

thats if it doesn't crash before hand :mad: like most other apps do if left to run a while. s/l WELCOME BACK. you've been missed.

I was able to get iTunes 10.4 though the Software Update when it was released. Didn't have any problems with Software Update on any thing so far.

MS, unlike Apple, has little or no control over hardware. Vista's major jump in resource usage from XP caused most of the problems with Vista (we won't mention Millennium :D) .

You know when I was working for an ISP when ME came out we would get calls because it had problems connecting to the internet. But I used ME when it was released, and didn't have any problems using it. I thought it was a running faster the Win98. :/

Hugh

WytRaven
Jul 30, 2011, 06:50 PM
Nope. Windows Vista was fine too.

Actually I just changed my opinion. Yes. Lion is Apple's Vista.

Lion is a strong step forward that boldly draws few lines in the sand and says "Sorry guys, it's time to move on in the name of progress."

Different doesn't equal bad.

Nielsenius
Jul 30, 2011, 07:07 PM
Weren't the "issues" that Vista had actually just dumbasses who didn't know how to use a computer? That's what I heard and I never had issues with my three or four machines each running Vista. I guess Lion is new and different, kind of like Vista was a change from XP. I haven't had issues with Lion, either. So yeah, Lion is kind of like Apple's Vista!

jonnysods
Jul 30, 2011, 08:10 PM
Wow this is a big title for a small amount of complaints. Some preferences weren't to your liking? It's not like the computer won't turn on or anything!

Gemütlichkeit
Jul 30, 2011, 10:32 PM
How about crashing every 10 minutes, blank screens with perpetual spinning balls of doom.. Im back on snow leopard

This would be valid if it was happening to everyone. You are in the vast minority here.

sjinsjca
Jul 30, 2011, 10:34 PM
"Apple's Vista"?

You must be kidding.

It's a flippin' marvel. No problems here on the family's several machines-- quite the contrary, my own MacBook Pro is like a new machine now, at least 30% more responsive.

r0k
Jul 30, 2011, 10:48 PM
There is one tiny shred of truth in the Vista comparison. Lion wants more memory than Snow Leopard. We have several Mac Mini's with 1gb RAM and while I don't mind popping in more RAM, I'd rather do it on my schedule, not Apple's. To keep mobile me working we gotta switch to Lion but to switch to Lion we gotta double RAM in our older machines. As of now, 2 out of 3 are done. Just waiting on the last SSD to arrive (you don't expect me to open up a mini and leave the 5400 rpm drive in there do ya?).

As for performance and compatibility, Lion is fine. Sure our NAS stopped working until I updated to LaCie's 7/22/11 firmware. Sure my ipad vpn apps don't work yet but it's only a matter of time.

mysterytramp
Jul 30, 2011, 11:07 PM
why do you think that? cant people post on marcumors and open up a discussion on the problems they are having with mac os x lion?

Sure, people can post what they want ... but it is a tad bit suspicious that so many people trashing Lion are labeled "macrumors newbie." I can imagine some of them upgraded, needed some help and came to MacRumors to find it. But I wouldn't doubt some of them are minions from Redmond trying to postpone or cancel every Lion sale they can.

mt

Aduntu
Jul 30, 2011, 11:14 PM
Vista operated the exact same as XP except many programs didn't work or they worked poorly. The OS also had that annoying UAC enabled by default. Besides that, Vista was just a shinier and more transparent version of XP.

You have no clue, at all, what you're talking about. Seriously, you couldn't be more wrong.

KingCrimson
Jul 31, 2011, 12:53 AM
As for performance and compatibility, Lion is fine. Sure our NAS stopped working until I updated to LaCie's 7/22/11 firmware. Sure my ipad vpn apps don't work yet but it's only a matter of time.

LOL!!!!! I'm sure 10.7.1 aka "Lion Service Pack 1" will fix all your problems. ;)

brand
Jul 31, 2011, 01:21 AM
LOL!!!!! I'm sure 10.7.1 aka "Lion Service Pack 1" will fix all your problems. ;)

10.7.1 is NOT aka "Lion Service Pack 1". Mac OS 10.7.1 is known as a point release not a Service Pack and definitely not "Service Pack 1".

revelated
Jul 31, 2011, 11:29 AM
We have several Mac Mini's with 1gb RAM and while I don't mind popping in more RAM, I'd rather do it on my schedule, not Apple's. To keep mobile me working we gotta switch to Lion but to switch to Lion we gotta double RAM in our older machines. As of now, 2 out of 3 are done. Just waiting on the last SSD to arrive (you don't expect me to open up a mini and leave the 5400 rpm drive in there do ya?).


There is simply no excuse to have ANY machine, Windows or Mac, running 1GB of RAM in this day and age. No excuse whatsoever. RAM upgrades are about the least expensive, most advantageous of any upgrade you could ever do to a computer even if you don't "need it". I fail to understand why people persist on winging it on the minimum specs. That's what really started the Vista debacle, you know...the hardware. NOT the software.

You have no clue, at all, what you're talking about. Seriously, you couldn't be more wrong.

Actually he is spot on. This is coming from someone certified in Windows 7, Windows Vista and various Server OS's.

Vista, at the core, is a bloated XP. There is actually less similarities between 7 and Vista than there are XP and Vista. The way XP and Vista handle files, shares, permissions, networking...basically the core of NTFS are virtually identical between the two. 7 takes certain NTFS elements and changes others; this is perfectly clear when you try to copy a file in Vista vs. copying the same file in 7. The only thing that really is common between 7 and Vista - besides the UAC, which is handled completely differently between the two - is the presence of desktop composition - otherwise known as Aero. However even the mechanics behind that are different.

Vista makes heavier use of the CPU and RAM than 7, and it requires a fairly powerful machine to use "normally". Vista's Aero is a joint operation between the RAM, CPU and GPU to generate the glass effect and manage it. This is why so many people got bit when Vista first launched with the "Vista Capable" which ended up disabling the Aero, because the lower end $200 laptops that came with Vista could in no way handle Vista properly. I distinctly remember being at Circuit City when Vista launched, and seeing all the low end Acer machines that had the "Vista Capable" and "Vista Ready" stickers, none of them running the Aero, all of them running extremely slow. Yet the Gateway P7805u that I bought which was a beast, ran Vista with no problems whatsoever, especially Service Pack 2.

7 delegates a lot of the rendering to the GPU and pagefile, less so on the CPU, resulting in greater performance on lesser machines, especially if you throw a SSD in there. The tradeoff is that in 7, EVERYTHING is primarily routed through the GPU, including folder list contents. Visually there is a delay if your GPU isn't up to snuff; that delay isn't there in Vista. However, you can run 7 on most anything, glass and all. There are videos about it. I have yet to encounter a machine that can't run 7 with Aero.


Now...to the analogy or comparison of Lion to Vista. Lion does feel a lot like the "Vista" of Apple's world in that they basically slapped a bunch of pointless changes on top of what was already there, increasing the base requirements without actually improving anything. It feels like a bloated Snow Leopard. So yes, I find that comparison to be spot on. The main difference is that they're not putting out machines to be "Lion Capable", and they don't generally allow you to revert out of Lion should you not like it. At least in Microsoft's world you were never forced to keep Vista as you are with the new Air and Lion. Mind, Microsoft supports XP until 2014, Vista as well. If one chooses to buy XP they can, and all hardware vendors fully support loading whatever OS you want. They'll even help you do it.

Nobody is suggesting that Apple back off of Lion. I'm sure it works for some. But this is definitely a case where they need to reconsider their "drop them like wet rags" philosophy. To many, Lion feels like Apple's Vista, and reverting to Snow Leopard should not make one a heathen against The Jobs.

CapnJackGig
Jul 31, 2011, 11:40 AM
Infinitely worse than Vista. Vista at least worked if you had a system that could run it. Lion is just really bad UI design decisions that seem to have been made simply to add bulletpoints when they said what Lion could do. I'm happy it's only 29.99, because i'd be embarrassed to admit paying more than that.

glen e
Jul 31, 2011, 11:48 AM
for the geeks I guess lion is bad, but for business users, I really can't see a lot of diff. I'm not into learning all the gestures so I can speed up my app switching 1/2 sec faster and other than that, don't see a big diff. I have two fellow business associates and they feel the same. If I did not get it with a new MBA I'd stay with SL. In fact, the guy I sold my old MBA to is also a MS office user and web person, and I told him not to bother upgrading...

I like full screen apps but would not pay 30 for that feature...I realize Lion is like an onion, but I'll never peel off more than the first two layers...

h00ligan
Jul 31, 2011, 11:49 AM
Yup. Insomuch as they will hammer things out an make them useful next time.

Aduntu
Jul 31, 2011, 11:50 AM
Actually he is spot on. This is coming from someone certified in Windows 7, Windows Vista and various Server OS's.

And now you're wrong as well, which doesn't say much for your certifications.

There are huge differences between the two operating systems -- anyone saying otherwise is clearly ignorant and/or misinformed.

Tozzi
Jul 31, 2011, 02:32 PM
I like full screen apps but would not pay 30 for that feature...I realize Lion is like an onion, but I'll never peel off more than the first two layers...

Full screen apps could be great, but the way these are implemented (rendering my second display useless), it's a bug and not a feature.
I do like Lion and most of its new features and would really like starting to use it on my production machine, but it's these little things, those few braindead, apparently completely untested "improvements" that ruin it for me.
I sure hope much of it will be addressed rather sooner than later.
For now, I'd be happy if my MBP stopped freezing every 3rd time or so it switches back to the integrated Intel graphics card. 'Nuff said.

ocbizlaw
Aug 5, 2011, 12:46 AM
I switched my entire company to Mac after the Vista fiasco. Not exactly because of Vista alone but because of a series of Microsoft failures. The last straw was with Windows mobile on a Sprint iPhone knock-off called the "Diamond." First I bought a couple of of iPhones just to see whether they were worth the hype. They were. After spending a year trying to make Vista work, Windows 7 came out but it was over $100 for the upgrade. We bought it and Windows 7 worked pretty well. At the end of the day, though, we felt like Microsoft solid us a beta OS (Vista), wasted hundred hours of our time, then charged us an exorbitant price for Windows 7 which is what Vista should have been in the first place.

Now we are an all Apple office (Macbook Pros and Macbook Airs) and there is no way I'd ever go back to Microsoft, ever!

Having said that, Lion doesn't offer us much that we use over Snow Leopard and does have a weird memory leak of some sort when Safari is running. Still, we love "versions" and some of the other features. That said, calling is Apple's Vista is not an apt analogy.

Trebuin
Aug 5, 2011, 01:10 AM
This is worse than the Vista Fiasco. The developers should not be the beta testers, the professional beta testers should be the beta testers...now that it's released, everyone gets to see the bugs. Good news is it will be fixed.

Vista was horrible because it was built off a canned project. It was also the first 64 bit dedicated OS with 32 bit emulated...but few software and hardware vendors decided to build drivers until the final release. nVidia is a perfect example...their performance was about 30% what it should have been and caused massive graphics slowdowns and horrible benchmarks. Then there was Microsoft's new memory handling...use 100% of the memory through caching (it would also cache into the pagefile...which was hanging around 32 gigs for me). When I was doing my original testing of the OS, it took upwards of 10 mins to completely load the OS from boot...you had to disable superfetching, I think it was.

After the drivers were written, Vista actually could be tweaked to be a very good OS. SP1 incorporated some of the tweaks into Vista as well as bugs.

OSX lacks the user capable tweaking and I think the beta testing system is a bit more broken. That being said, they can fix it fast as they're not building multiple OS's at the same time...they can actually commit.

damson34
Aug 5, 2011, 01:19 AM
This is worse than the Vista Fiasco. The developers should not be the beta testers, the professional beta testers should be the beta testers...now that it's released, everyone gets to see the bugs. Good news is it will be fixed.

Vista was horrible because it was built off a canned project. It was also the first 64 bit dedicated OS with 32 bit emulated...but few software and hardware vendors decided to build drivers until the final release. nVidia is a perfect example...their performance was about 30% what it should have been and caused massive graphics slowdowns and horrible benchmarks. Then there was Microsoft's new memory handling...use 100% of the memory through caching (it would also cache into the pagefile...which was hanging around 32 gigs for me). When I was doing my original testing of the OS, it took upwards of 10 mins to completely load the OS from boot...you had to disable superfetching, I think it was.

After the drivers were written, Vista actually could be tweaked to be a very good OS. SP1 incorporated some of the tweaks into Vista as well as bugs.

OSX lacks the user capable tweaking and I think the beta testing system is a bit more broken. That being said, they can fix it fast as they're not building multiple OS's at the same time...they can actually commit.

Apple does not beta test OS X to the Developers. We get the seeds because we need to be ready for changes. There is an actual Apple Beta Tester program and its called Appleseed. So it is not just developers who are using the system beforehand.

nuckinfutz
Aug 5, 2011, 01:22 AM
Infinitely worse than Vista. Vista at least worked if you had a system that could run it. Lion is just really bad UI design decisions that seem to have been made simply to add bulletpoints when they said what Lion could do. I'm happy it's only 29.99, because i'd be embarrassed to admit paying more than that.

Vista didn't work...what halcyon dreams have you succumbed to? My mother upgraded to Vista and promptly had her scanner and printer stop working. It took Fujitsu months to deliver a Vista driver.

Vista was slow and Aero looked like ass.

Lion has had well over a million copies downloaded and the most people can complain about are NAS drivers failing? LOL...that whopping majority. Anyone following the development would have told you that SMB was rewritten in Lion.

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/03/24/apple-to-drop-samba-networking-tools-from-lion/

Way back in March. Everyone on these boards has a ********n computer and some of you are still to GD lazy to do research.

Lion has a Cloud architecture embedded deep into their API
They got Auto Save, Resume and Versions working nicely
Entire drive Encryption
Delta changes
improved memory management with LLVC and Auto Reference Counting

tom5304
Aug 5, 2011, 01:47 AM
Vista didn't work...what halcyon dreams have you succumbed to? My mother upgraded to Vista and promptly had her scanner and printer stop working.


I "upgraded" to Lion and my Wifi stopped working, along with basic Finder functions slowing to a grinding beachball.

damson34
Aug 5, 2011, 01:51 AM
I "upgraded" to Lion and my Wifi stopped working, along with basic Finder functions slowing to a grinding beachball.


And how many add ons do you have running? This is what people don't get. Almost all the bugs in ANY OS upgrade is because the user has modified something in the system. Don't blame the OS, blame yourself.

GuerillaTech
Aug 5, 2011, 01:58 AM
Vista didn't work...what halcyon dreams have you succumbed to? My mother upgraded to Vista and promptly had her scanner and printer stop working. It took Fujitsu months to deliver a Vista driver.


See, you just said it yourself, it wasn't Vista or Microsoft's fault, it was Fujitsu's fault for not having drivers ready.

tom5304
Aug 5, 2011, 02:03 AM
And how many add ons do you have running? This is what people don't get. Almost all the bugs in ANY OS upgrade is because the user has modified something in the system. Don't blame the OS, blame yourself.

My only "add-on" was OSX 10.7 Lion.

Without meaning to, you just proved my point. You say all the bugs in any OS upgrade is (sic) due to the user modifying something in the system. Well, my only modification was the addition of a new OS called Lion.

So you're saying I should blame myself for installing OSX 10.7? :confused:

Airport has been running fine for me for years under Snow Leopard. Lion has broken Wifi for many people, if you'll open your eyes to reality.

mark28
Aug 5, 2011, 02:07 AM
And how many add ons do you have running? This is what people don't get. Almost all the bugs in ANY OS upgrade is because the user has modified something in the system. Don't blame the OS, blame yourself.

You can't modify OS X. It's a closed system, it's not Linux.

Even with a clean install with nothing installed, it still had issues.

I rather use Windows Vista on my 4 year old PC laptop than using Lion on this Mac.

nuckinfutz
Aug 5, 2011, 02:20 AM
I "upgraded" to Lion and my Wifi stopped working, along with basic Finder functions slowing to a grinding beachball.

Whoa! De Ja Vu

Good luck on getting those problems fixed. It doesn't sound like a widespread problem but that matters little to those affected.

See, you just said it yourself, it wasn't Vista or Microsoft's fault, it was Fujitsu's fault for not having drivers ready.

Yup I was more frustrated by the laziness of Fujitsu and others who didn't have their drivers ready but Vista was bloated and slow and didn't resemble the grand architecture that Microsoft had laid out.

You can't modify OS X. It's a closed system, it's not Linux.

Even with a clean install with nothing installed, it still had issues.

I rather use Windows Vista on my 4 year old PC laptop than using Lion on this Mac.

Mark explain your claims of OS X being a closed system when the foundation is BSD Unix. It can't be closed ..you can run Unix apps ..even the Command Line do just about everything that Linux can do. OS X has a proprietary display (Quartz) though it heavily leverages PDF which is somewhat open.

Almost 17 thousand reviews on the Mac App Store and Lion is garnering a 4.5 star rating. I, along with probably at least 10 thousand Lion users, would probably disagree with the notion that it is in any way "Vista like"

mark28
Aug 5, 2011, 02:30 AM
Whoa! De Ja Vu

Good luck on getting those problems fixed. It doesn't sound like a widespread problem but that matters little to those affected.



Yup I was more frustrated by the laziness of Fujitsu and others who didn't have their drivers ready but Vista was bloated and slow and didn't resemble the grand architecture that Microsoft had laid out.



Mark explain your claims of OS X being a closed system when the foundation is BSD Unix. It can't be closed ..you can run Unix apps ..even the Command Line do just about everything that Linux can do. OS X has a proprietary display (Quartz) though it heavily leverages PDF which is somewhat open.

Almost 17 thousand reviews on the Mac App Store and Lion is garnering a 4.5 star rating. I, along with probably at least 10 thousand Lion users, would probably disagree with the notion that it is in any way "Vista like"

Polls are meaningless, Bush ( the worst President in history ) got reelected by 300 million people.

As of now, Windows Vista simply works, just like SL just works. Lion is not as good as these 2 OS yet. It might be later when 10.7.1 is released.

damson34
Aug 5, 2011, 02:46 AM
You can't modify OS X. It's a closed system, it's not Linux.

Even with a clean install with nothing installed, it still had issues.

I rather use Windows Vista on my 4 year old PC laptop than using Lion on this Mac.

Are you serious? You thing you can't modify an OS just because it isn't public licensed? You must be computer illiterate. Have you downloaded programs that added extra features to the finder, iChat, iTunes, Mail or Safari? Downloaded a program that changes anything in the dock? If so you have modified the system. I just use an application as is. I haven't done any haxies, or downloaded programs that added features to applications. Because of that my OS upgrades have always gone smoothly.

mac1984user
Aug 5, 2011, 07:37 AM
This is not Apple's Vista, despite nagging irritations. I hope updates will sort those problems out, though I imagine some will linger on into the next couple years without resolution. IMHO, it's still a step up from SL.

CapnJackGig
Aug 5, 2011, 07:42 AM
Vista didn't work...what halcyon dreams have you succumbed to? My mother upgraded to Vista and promptly had her scanner and printer stop working. It took Fujitsu months to deliver a Vista driver.

Vista was slow and Aero looked like ass.

Lion has had well over a million copies downloaded and the most people can complain about are NAS drivers failing? LOL...that whopping majority. Anyone following the development would have told you that SMB was rewritten in Lion.

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/03/24/apple-to-drop-samba-networking-tools-from-lion/

Way back in March. Everyone on these boards has a ********n computer and some of you are still to GD lazy to do research.

Lion has a Cloud architecture embedded deep into their API
They got Auto Save, Resume and Versions working nicely
Entire drive Encryption
Delta changes
improved memory management with LLVC and Auto Reference Counting

Yeah yeah, I get it, fanboys don't like the assertion that Lion is worse than Vista. We get it. Let the adults talk.

KaPOWitsCHRIS
Aug 5, 2011, 07:44 AM
No. Lion is the best OS I've ever used.

KPOM
Aug 5, 2011, 08:02 AM
See, you just said it yourself, it wasn't Vista or Microsoft's fault, it was Fujitsu's fault for not having drivers ready.

One difference, though, is that Microsoft had much-ballyhooed "Windows Vista Ready" and "Designed for Vista" programs, and lots of PC makers slapped the lesser "Windows Vista Ready" sticker on lots of PCs that clearly weren't "ready" for Vista. This confused customers who wondered why Aero didn't work, or why their peripherals had issues.

Queen6
Aug 5, 2011, 12:58 PM
Nope, Lion is working well for me, it`s a .0 release, with a differing GUI so there will be plenty of noise. Personally I like Lion, I do miss spaces, then again as more software is released with fullscreen this will dissipate and no doubt Apple will come up with a solution for muti-screen all in all I do feel that Lion is a signifiant advancement.

Ten programs running in full screen, ten spaces and no discernible slow down, Lion will evolve and a year from now no one will remember the fuss. Much the same was said on Snow Leopard on release. I will shortly swap out my primary Mac for the new system with Lion, once 10.7.1 is released, the 10.7.0 system will become the backup, as for the present primary on 10.6.8 it will be retired to one of the family having more than paid for it`s self :apple:

I dont realistically expect my 4.1 2.4GHz, 5400rpm HD MacBook Pro to compete with i5/i7 machines that are designed from the ground up to run SSD, do you? Lion is the start, just wait for the next generation of MacBook pro`s...

Bunker
Aug 8, 2011, 06:59 AM
I had it installed, upgraded from Snow Leopard for just over 1 week now.

The first 3 days was full of grudges.... it made me feel like it's definitely the Vista of Apple.

Funny thing is, I don't find so many broken things like Vista did. What's broken for me:

- NAS. (Fixed with firmware update)
- WIFI (still dropping out occasionally... now, I wonder it's my new Cisco E4200 or Lion..)
- Mail (stupid rules doesn't work all the time!!! Those were from Snow Leopard)
- iSync (got it back from Time Machine backup of my Snow Leopard).


What appear as broken, but more like broken user experience and needed retraining:
- Natural scroll (got used to it after just 2 days)
- 2x2 spaces gone.... #(*$(*....
- Dashboard had gone to a full screen... hmm.. I can switch it back but so far I like it on another screen...
- Slow response... aha... first 3 days of indexing by spotlight really takes it toll.. now it's A-OK.


In fact, the Lion response faster in most area compared to Snow Leopard, but you need to give it time to "load" into memory first. This is a step backward compared to Snow Leopard.

Changing input language is a pain. in Snow Leopard, it's already slow and not instantaneous when you hit CMD-Space to switch language. It's WORST in Lion. Calling up the hand writing pad is a hit-miss event. Now, this gets to my nerve.

Other than that, since it didn't have that many broken things like what Vista had broken... I would say it is NOT the Vista of Apple :D

belltree
Aug 8, 2011, 07:03 AM
Two words - "Save As". WTF Apple?

OW22
Aug 8, 2011, 07:13 AM
Have to say, big fan of Lion right here. Was wary of installing it as SL was running flawlessly so kept SL on a partition.

Haven't looked back since installing Lion. Love the slickness of it and no issues for me at all. Wifi OK. sleep mode, no performance lags. It's fast and I like Mission Control and the gestures.

TPadden
Aug 8, 2011, 09:03 AM
No. Lion is the best OS I've ever used.

Posts like this have caused me to format and clean install Lion 3 times; my actual experience with a 2010 MBA w/ 4gb has me once again recovered back to SL.:rolleyes:

If nothing else is comparable between the two ...... I did the same thing with Vista :mad: but at least going back to the previous OS is much easier with OS X :D.

Skika
Aug 8, 2011, 09:29 AM
A part of a minor few things (that will be ironed out with future updates) i am very satisfied with Lion.

BaldiMac
Aug 8, 2011, 09:46 AM
It's amazing how a good line of propaganda catches on and can be used over and over again. :D

https://twitter.com/#!/tapbot_paul/status/100365674341335040

https://twitter.com/#!/tapbot_paul/status/100367419457028096

*LTD*
Aug 8, 2011, 10:02 AM
It's amazing how a good line of propaganda catches on and can be used over and over again. :D

https://twitter.com/#!/tapbot_paul/status/100365674341335040

https://twitter.com/#!/tapbot_paul/status/100367419457028096

The funny thing is, no matter how hard the naysayers push this idea, the market and industry at large keep proving them wrong.

The reviews of Lion are more or less glowing - the reception has actually been far more positive than it was with SL.

There is no evidence of any mass consumer exodus back to SL or any other earlier version of OS X, like there was with Vista. You can't claim a Vista-like situation when there is no physical evidence for it.

Apple will simply end up selling even *more* Macs - in a market where we are still flooded with cheap alternatives that are not part of any closed platform. So consumers do have choices.

gentlefury
Aug 8, 2011, 10:22 AM
The only similarity I see between Lion and Vista is that when Vista came out MS had changed the way some things worked in windows and a lot of annoying users freaked out and bitched and complained about it rather than embrace it....did they win or did MS keep those changes and progress forward??? Well, Windows 7 is proof that the complainers don't control the OS.

I can't wait to see how these geezers react to Windows 8!!! It's gonna be hilarious!!

blackhand1001
Aug 8, 2011, 03:01 PM
Vista, at the core, is a bloated XP. There is actually less similarities between 7 and Vista than there are XP and Vista. The way XP and Vista handle files, shares, permissions, networking...basically the core of NTFS are virtually identical between the two. 7 takes certain NTFS elements and changes others; this is perfectly clear when you try to copy a file in Vista vs. copying the same file in 7. The only thing that really is common between 7 and Vista - besides the UAC, which is handled completely differently between the two - is the presence of desktop composition - otherwise known as Aero. However even the mechanics behind that are different.



You could not be more wrong. Both vista and windows 7 are longhorn based OS's both running nt kernel 6 and using the new shell that came with it. Vista is a huge change from xp breaking the ground for windows 7. Any program that works for vista works for 7 as well. Both vista and 7 use the same driver module (yes vista can use the newer wddm 1.1 drivers) and under hood are vastly similar. Both these os's are also much lighter than lion and run smoothly with 1gb of ram.

WeegieMac
Aug 8, 2011, 03:38 PM
Welcome to MacRumors, 2009 ...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=774331

"Could Snow Leopard Be Apples Vista".

I think what we're seeing, as with Snow Leopard, is a desperate need by some people for a new version of OS X to be branded such a failure, not that the software actually is.

And for the record, Lion screams on my early 2009 iMac and is noticeably quicker than Snow Leopard.

TPadden
Aug 8, 2011, 04:21 PM
....I think what we're seeing, as with Snow Leopard, is a desperate need by some people for a new version of OS X to be branded such a failure, not that the software actually is......

No, we disagree. Vista wasn't necessarily branded a failure, just a not-so-stable step taken between very stable XP and Win 7.

I'm positive that Lion will morph into a stable OS but that doesn't mean that in it's present state it is more usable than its predecessor for everyone :).

mdsofky
Aug 8, 2011, 05:38 PM
I don't know if this was addressed earlier (didn't read every posting on this thread) but my Snow Leopards iMacs are working fine in Windows being able to see their shares and my HP Color LaserJet MFP being able to "scan to a file on their shares. The iMacs I've updated to Lion now are not accessible from my Windows PCs or the HP printer.

Any fix for the "windows sharing" issues with Lion (Lion can see them, by the way, just not the other way around).

WeegieMac
Aug 8, 2011, 06:13 PM
No, we disagree. Vista wasn't necessarily branded a failure, just a not-so-stable step taken between very stable XP and Win 7.

I'm positive that Lion will morph into a stable OS but that doesn't mean that in it's present state it is more usable than its predecessor for everyone :).

I still believe, for reasons only known to those people, that there are folk who feel a need for Lion (and Snow Leopard before it) to be Apple's "Vista".

As proven by the link provided, we had the exact same nonsense when Snow Leopard launched, the exact same topic of discussion. People who expect a .0 release to be firing all cylinders are the bane of the computer industry in my eyes.

And yes, while Lion may not run better than it's predecessor for everyone, it sure as hell does for me. Come 10.7.2, this whole Vista comparison nonsense will have gone, just as it was when Snow Leopard reached it's second or third incremental update.

TPadden
Aug 8, 2011, 06:24 PM
....Come 10.7.2, this whole Vista comparison nonsense will have gone, just as it was when Snow Leopard reached it's second or third incremental update.

..... and I believe if everyone thought like you that "it sure as hell" ran better than its predecessor and didn't post their complaints and comparison nonsense there would NEVER be any incremental updates, 10.7.2, and we'd still be using Vista ....:rolleyes:

seniorgeek
Aug 8, 2011, 08:21 PM
It does have some nice features and looks prettier but it's buggy as hell. Here's what I've experienced.

1. Hate the default settings. Can't get used to the "natural" scrolling and the default settings in finder.

2. AFP and SMB compatibility issues. Right when you install this you get this rude awakening when you can't login to your NAS drives. Luckily there is a workaround for this stupid problem. http://www.alexanderwilde.com/2011/04/os-x-lion-connection-error-with-afp-and-workaround/

3. Screensaver randomly starts. Right at the login screen, a random screensaver just starts out of nowhere. When you don't touch the computer for a split second, it could start. Or sometimes, you walk away for 5 minutes, it starts! It's got a mind of it's own!!! Deleting the screensaver plist in the Library directory sort of fixed it. Still acts randmly but not as bad (knock on wood).

I remember when I went from Leopard to Snow, it didn't have this many problems!

I certainly hope so, I am on my first iMac preinstalled with Lion and I loved my Vista machine, never had a crash or an issue with it in three years. If my new imac with Lion is as stable I will be a happy camper.

mrmister
Aug 8, 2011, 10:55 PM
Lion isn't Vista. After all, Vista became renowned for not being upgraded to...and Apple gives no one a choice about Lion, as you get it preloaded on each new Mac that comes out.

There's no choice, there's only Apple's way. Because of this, it could never be like Vista. It will succeed in the sense that Mac users will have no choice at all, and so they'll use it.

TPadden
Aug 8, 2011, 11:31 PM
There's no choice, there's only Apple's way. Because of this, it could never be like Vista. It will succeed in the sense that Mac users will have no choice at all, and so they'll use it.

Doesn't fly ;).

I bought 2 Fujitsu touch screen laptops that came loaded with Vista and only supported Vista OEM; they gave users NO CHOICE. It took over 3 months of customer complaints before they developed XP drivers and issued OEM "XP downgrade" disks. Other manufacturers went the same route and later offered "XP downgrades" (I know HP also initially gave some laptop customers NO CHOICE). It took a lot of "annoying users freaked out and bitched and complained about it rather than embrace it" for OEM downgrades to happen though :D!

revelated
Aug 8, 2011, 11:39 PM
You could not be more wrong. Both vista and windows 7 are longhorn based OS's both running nt kernel 6 and using the new shell that came with it. Vista is a huge change from xp breaking the ground for windows 7. Any program that works for vista works for 7 as well. Both vista and 7 use the same driver module (yes vista can use the newer wddm 1.1 drivers) and under hood are vastly similar. Both these os's are also much lighter than lion and run smoothly with 1gb of ram.

I'm sorry, did you just say Vista runs "smoothly" with 1 GB of RAM?

blackhand1001
Aug 9, 2011, 01:45 PM
I'm sorry, did you just say Vista runs "smoothly" with 1 GB of RAM?
Yes it does, Heres a youtube video of an old pentium 4 2.4ghz with 1gb of ram running vista that I took a few days ago. I also have it on an old core 2 duo macbook that came with 1 gb and it runs great too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-4XEKjtMw

Runs pretty good in my opinion especially with hardware thats from around 2002-2003.

mrmister
Aug 9, 2011, 02:48 PM
"I bought 2 Fujitsu touch screen laptops that came loaded with Vista and only supported Vista OEM; they gave users NO CHOICE. It took over 3 months of customer complaints before they developed XP drivers and issued OEM "XP downgrade" disks. Other manufacturers went the same route and later offered "XP downgrades" (I know HP also initially gave some laptop customers NO CHOICE). It took a lot of "annoying users freaked out and bitched and complained about it rather than embrace it" for OEM downgrades to happen though !"

That's because there are manufacturers. Apple's model is that Apple does everything, so there will never be a downgrader--there's no one in the Apple ecosystem for users to complain to except Apple, and their reputation is built on not listening to customers and doing what they think is right.

No matter how you slice it, it's not a lot like Vista.

jvmxtra
Aug 9, 2011, 02:57 PM
I have 2011 imac 27 basic model. When I do mission control, lot of time it will freeze for 2 to 3 sec. I would call that FAILURE.

Anything 2011 hardware should be running this freaking OS like a butter.

this IS VISTA.
What they should do is give people OPTION to run either IOS OR REAL OS on their desktop/laptop.

Again, this IS VISTA.

TPadden
Aug 9, 2011, 03:01 PM
...No matter how you slice it, it's not a lot like Vista.

We finally agree: it is Vista :eek:!

jvmxtra
Aug 9, 2011, 03:02 PM
I am really disappointed w/ lion. Seriously. Once again, apple is really proving that after mr.jobs, company is ready to take the plunge.(ok, whatever, if you want to say jobs had 99% of saying in lion)

Company is paying WAY MORE attention to IOS device. Ummm hello apple, there are some SERIOUS people who work like crazy, who love to have apple laptop/desktop which works like Magic.. LEAVE it alone(well, now fix lion)

GreyStranger
Aug 9, 2011, 03:46 PM
It would take me all day to write down every individual time lion has given me a problem. I may not have good specific examples to give, but I agree. It's buggy as hell. Maybe it works great for someone else. Whatever, it sucks for me. I'm going back to Snow Leopard.

Mattie Num Nums
Aug 9, 2011, 04:10 PM
Just some things I have noticed...

* SMB/AFP is problematic
* AD Binding is total broken (using Centrify Express fixes that and gives you 100% Kerberized luvin!!!!)
* System Preferences -> Accounts will freak out if you are bound to AD
* LDAP Search Policies are broken (even manually injecting the Plist)
* Disk Utility doesn't seem to like working with anything non Lion (CCC fixes that.)
* Apple Remote Desktop 3.5 client version seems to be causing issues
* DNS resolution with Lion Server is terrible

Thats just a few. I've seen more beachballs lately on my computer than at a crowded beach.

All of these are with 10.7 and 10.7.2.

SixPants
Nov 17, 2011, 01:35 PM
I wish I'd read the warnings more closely. But I was so seduced by iCloud that I went ahead with a clean install of Lion.

I hate it. Yes, me. The owner of over a dozen various Apple products which I constantly evangelize the benefits of to others. And for the first time, I'm actually hating my Mac. Much like I did my PC. Hate is such a strong word, yet I feel it. Almost betrayed but this machine that I depend on for work and leisure.

Sluggish. TextEdit can take 10+ seconds to launch? Killing apps taking 3-5 seconds? This isn't sometimes, this is probably 15-20% of the time. I'm suspecting the full screen feature just murders the performance. I've always had lots of apps open at once (Safari, Mail, Calendar, Addresses, iWork apps, etc.) and it's never been like this. That's after HEAVY daily use at work and home.

My battery life too is in the dumps (2009 MacBook Pro 13", 2GB RAM). Luckily I'm generally plugged-in.

In fact, it's so bad at this point that I think I'll lose iCloud and go back to 10.6.

This may prove to be Apple's Vista. Everyone has a flop now and again. And this OS experience will leave you frustrated and boiling-over at a computer that you formerly adored.

Naturally this is all very qualitative by nature. But since Apple is so focused on user experience (itself a naturally qualitative endeavor) I think my complaints are somewhat justified. Lion is a qualitative mess.

----------

Yeah... it's a bit of a rant. I think everyone is entitled to one every 3-5 years.

heisenberg123
Nov 17, 2011, 01:43 PM
I wish I'd read the warnings more closely. But I was so seduced by iCloud that I went ahead with a clean install of Lion.

I hate it. Yes, me. The owner of over a dozen various Apple products which I constantly evangelize the benefits of to others. And for the first time, I'm actually hating my Mac. Much like I did my PC. Hate is such a strong word, yet I feel it. Almost betrayed but this machine that I depend on for work and leisure.

Sluggish. TextEdit can take 10+ seconds to launch? Killing apps taking 3-5 seconds? This isn't sometimes, this is probably 15-20% of the time. I'm suspecting the full screen feature just murders the performance. I've always had lots of apps open at once (Safari, Mail, Calendar, Addresses, iWork apps, etc.) and it's never been like this. That's after HEAVY daily use at work and home.


My battery life too is in the dumps (2009 MacBook Pro 13", 2GB RAM). Luckily I'm generally plugged-in.

In fact, it's so bad at this point that I think I'll lose iCloud and go back to 10.6.

This may prove to be Apple's Vista. Everyone has a flop now and again. And this OS experience will leave you frustrated and boiling-over at a computer that you formerly adored.

Naturally this is all very qualitative by nature. But since Apple is so focused on user experience (itself a naturally qualitative endeavor) I think my complaints are somewhat justified. Lion is a qualitative mess.

----------

Yeah... it's a bit of a rant. I think everyone is entitled to one every 3-5 years.

how much RAM do you have?

Macman45
Nov 17, 2011, 01:48 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Lion is better than SL? I ran it on 8GB and it was fine, upgraded to 16GB for rendering stuff....Runs great on my MBA and MBP. I know many threads here are really down on Lion, but I consider it an improvement.

The problem may be that older machines without the clout are being upgraded. This I suppose is a good way of increasing RAM and Mac sales. But I for one am really happy with it.

Could not go back to SL now.

PlaceofDis
Nov 17, 2011, 01:53 PM
I too have no problems with Lion on my iMac. There are no driver issues, its faster than SL was and the "quirky" stuff i got used to in a day. Its no where near the disaster that Vista was, far from it.

jbachandouris
Nov 17, 2011, 01:58 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

My only issue is battery life on my MBP seems less. I'm running 4GB, so occasional beach balls, but not as many since the latest update.

TheZA
Nov 17, 2011, 02:01 PM
I don't know, I haven't run into ANY significant issues on a mid-2009 white Macbook (old style) with 2gb RAM or an iMac I3 with 4gb. I did an install straight from the Ap Store on both, not a clean install. On balance, I like Lion. Air Drop works flawlessly between the Macbook and iMac (maybe the first of the Macbooks with wifi card that works with Airdrop?), and that is a great feature for me. The biggest thing I don't like is dropping Rosetta as now for a couple of programs I have to use a virtualized Snow Leopard via VirtualBox, which is slow and a bit of a hassle. One thing I haven't tried yet is connecting the Macbook to the TV. I'm a bit apprehensive about that as I have heard some have been having problems and that was also a problem for me in the early days of SL.


I think it depends on how you use your computers. For me, it works well.

Macman45
Nov 17, 2011, 02:11 PM
I too have no problems with Lion on my iMac. There are no driver issues, its faster than SL was and the "quirky" stuff i got used to in a day. Its no where near the disaster that Vista was, far from it.

Vista was on a par with ME, both nightmares and I still get requests from friends to re-install / update the stuff. I have mentioned this in an older thread, but if MS don't get Windows 8 right, they really are headed down.

Problems of corporate changes etc. Are what keep them alive. My friends (most of whom had PC's) come here for a beer and a "Can I have a go" type of thing.

I still help the ones out who remain in the Windows domain, but the argument is alway's "But you pay so much for your stuff" Gently pointing them in the general direction of the App store, re-sale value etc. and one by one they make the investment.

Clincher? ipad on, 4S on imac on MBA on MBP on ATV streaming everything. "Now I get it" they say.

ThomasJL
Nov 17, 2011, 02:21 PM
Good post, SixPants. I've always been excited about every new Mac OS, but Lion marks the first time I am not. I haven't installed it due to all the complaints about both sluggishness and bugs that I've read.

It's good you did a clean install. In the past, people who've not done clean installs often have more problems with glitches and sluggishness than people who've done clean installs.

I think there may be a way to reduce (but maybe not eliminate completely) the sluggishness you are experiencing. You said:


My battery life too is in the dumps (2009 MacBook Pro 13", 2GB RAM). Luckily I'm generally plugged-in.

Go to Crucial.com and buy 8 GB of RAM. That would likely help significantly, although maybe not eliminate the sluggishness entirely. Please report back to this thread if you do that, and please share your results.

szolr
Nov 17, 2011, 02:32 PM
I disagree. Lion has introduced a lot of new features, as Leopard did. Snow Leopard just made Leopard slicker. Doubtless the next OS will streamline Lion further. But Lion is an improvement over Snow Leopard I think. ;)

concernedone
Nov 17, 2011, 07:09 PM
I don't like Lion myself.

I'm hoping for a really good update after Lion.

SixPants
Nov 18, 2011, 05:33 AM
I must be getting old. The idea of needing 8GB to run an OS blows me away. Alas, I guess I'm not one of the "cool kids" anymore!

I can't afford a RAM upgrade right now (2 kids under 2 = no money). And I never read the system requirements so this very well be my own fault. I even came back to delete the rant but saw it was picked up in a nearly-identical thread (guess I don't have original thoughts either).

I think "Vista" is being used as a metaphor. Those of you making apples-to-apples comparisons are possibly missing the metaphorical aspect of referring to a software launch that destabilizes formerly stable software.

I'm so close to reinstalling 10.6 but iCloud seems so great. Then again, Wifi sync takes care of a lot of those issues anyway.

OllyW
Nov 18, 2011, 05:54 AM
I've got used to or worked around most of Lion's new features on my iMac and dumping the Mighty Mouse for the Trackpad helped a lot. I sometimes suffer with the freeze ups due to a lack of RAM but I'm already maxed out at 4GB so I'll have to just live with that.

While I'd never compare it to Vista, I don't think I'll ever accept Apple decision to drop 'Save As'. :mad:

maflynn
Nov 18, 2011, 06:01 AM
I don't use mission control at all, and generally don't use launchpad, outside of those features, I find that Lion has been a stable OS.

I'd like apple to improve both of those items before too long, there's potential in both but in their current incarnation they're not very useful

OllyW
Nov 18, 2011, 06:28 AM
I don't use mission control at all, and generally don't use launchpad, outside of those features, I find that Lion has been a stable OS.

I'd like apple to improve both of those items before too long, there's potential in both but in their current incarnation they're not very useful

I've managed to tweak Mission Control to make it behave better and only ever see launchpad when I make it's multi-touch short cut by mistake. :)

arkitect
Nov 18, 2011, 06:32 AM
I don't think I'll ever accept Apple decision to drop 'Save As'. :mad:

While I have no major problems with Lion I agree with you.
WTF Apple? Why drop Save As…

maflynn
Nov 18, 2011, 07:10 AM
I don't think I'll ever accept Apple decision to drop 'Save As'. :mad:

I agree with you.
WTF Apple? Why drop Save As…

Another vote for the wacky decision to drop "Save As" Makes no sense, adds to my work flow and while there are work arounds its very un-apple like.

foiden
Nov 18, 2011, 07:45 AM
Lion has some issues here and there. Kind of like growing pains, but I don't think it's like Vista. Maybe a micro Vista, but not quite like that. The missing Save AS is the main thing I'm a little perplexed with. Yes, I know it is somewhat an improvement for those using Save AS as a backup feature as it's not needed anymore. I still have to adjust myself to this auto-versioning (You never lose your work lest your storage device fails) feature. I now have to remember that Duplicate is the feature needed if I want to take a file and create a version of it in a different format. Otherwise, not too bad for a revamp of the OS. Obviously, not every introduced OP System would be as close to seamless as the upgrade to Snow Leopard. Then again, Snow Leopard also got better with time.

I'd probably have more issues with Lion if I didn't see the nice level of improvement already via their patches. They indeed fixed a good number of stuff from their last release or two. Quite a few of them based on stability issues with utilizing the new full-screen and mission control functions with certain content certain ways. It's a powerful tool, when you use it, but with so many ways the user can exploit their use, I was a little shocked they didn't hammer on it in test more. On the other hand, they were quick to squash the bugs I reported on.

roadbloc
Nov 18, 2011, 07:48 AM
I had an iMac and I upgraded it to Lion. I hated it. It didn't make sense in my head. Launchpad seemed useless, fullscreen apps were stupid on a 21" screen, resume was okay but annoying at times, autosave/versions and the lack of save as made me want to cry and the gestures were useless to me since I didn't have a Magic Trackpad or Mouse. To boot, Mission Control seemed buggy and too restricted as far as Spaces are concerned.

However... I have since ditched my iMac and moved onto a MacBook Air. And I hate to say it... but I have re-evaluated my opinion on Lion. Post after post I've bashed Lion on these (and other) forums. For the first time, Lion has made sense. Launchpad and Fullscreen apps are perfect on such a small screen. Resume I still find annoying but bearable and autosave I still don't like but can live with. With a magic trackpad, Lion is a hell of a lot more understandable. Without the gestures on my iMac, Lion's features seemed inconsistent and half baked. But with gestures, it all fits into place. Mission Control appears to be less buggy since the 10.7.2 update, but I'd still like to be able to rearrange spaces and fullscreen apps in it by clicking and dragging.

Lion has grown on me. It is clear to see that it was designed with the MBA in mind. There are still a lot of bugs I want to see fixed though. Such as WiFi drop outs and poor battery life.

maflynn
Nov 18, 2011, 08:17 AM
Lion has some issues here and there. Kind of like growing pains, but I don't think it's like Vista. Maybe a micro Vista,
One of the big issues with Vista was that MS took years to finally roll it out. They promised everyone, developers, consumers the sky. The basically pre-announced all the features and raised everyone's expectations even before a full beta was released.

When Longhorn - renamed to vista rolled out, it had basically no new features except for an annoying security feature that kept prompting you when ever you did an action, like enter the control panel. Plus, for no real new features it was bloated, buggy.

With regard to Lion, apple has added a lot of features to Lion, some people don't like all the features, but that's normal. There are some bugs and even issues with how apple implemented the features, i.e., mission control.

My point is apple may have mis-fired in some respects but Lion is a solid OS that is very popular and in no way resembling vista

scottsjack
Nov 18, 2011, 04:14 PM
For me Lion is somewhat like Vista in that I was an XP user when all the Vista stuff happen. Because of Microsoft's and Vista's issues I converted over to Macs.

Now I'm running Lion on three Mac's. Because of Apple's and Lion's issues I've set up Windows 7/Office 2010 installations on two of them. I'm back to about 50% Windows usage now. A Mac Pro with Lion and W7 offers lots of flexibility.

Badrottie
Nov 19, 2011, 04:14 AM
After installing Lion (I have been using Snow Leopard for 3 months and 5 months using Leopard) I don't feel like Lion is Windows Vista.

WeegieMac
Nov 19, 2011, 04:35 AM
For me, and I stress this is MY opinion and MY experience, having spent extended time getting to know the ins and outs of Lion a bit more, Snow Leopard is a far superior user experience on my Mac than Lion.

My initial reaction was WAY off, massively so in fact.

I find when Lion is first booted, it runs brilliantly. Within the hour, it begins acting up. Animations going to/from full screen mode can stutter, as do the animations opening/closing folders on Launchpad.

The system can feel, in general, sluggish (especially scrolling on Safari) after waking from sleep, and the RAM management is quite frankly shocking. Yes, I know the old argument that inactive is the same as free continues, but in my experience RAM must be used and allocated then freed up by quitting the application using it, to become inactive. Lion, again, within the hour allocates any free RAM to inactive and that for me is what bogs my system down.

I used iFreeMem as a trial, and when optimising RAM and returning inactive to free, there was a marked improvement in performance, but Lion should not be turning free memory into inactive memory when nothing has used the RAM and been quit in the first place.

I'm going to relegate Lion to the external partition and bring Snow Leopard "home" over the weekend and put it back on the internal. Even running Snow Leopard from the external WD drive, it's just a slicker, quicker user experience on my Mac (note MY Mac, everything above is MY experience, not me speaking in terms regarding ALL users).

I just can't shake the feeling that the lack of Bertrand Serlet on this project didn't help. OS X up until Snow Leopard never felt bogged down or thrown together, but at times sadly Lion does.

Sure, I'll miss iCloud support since 10.6.9 got scrapped by all accounts, and autocorrect is a nice feature when typing (at times), but sitting here on Snow Leopard right now, my Mac feels like the Mac I loved to use, not the one I sat down and tried to force myself to use when on Lion.

vitzr
Nov 19, 2011, 04:53 AM
I cannot tell how many times I smile when ppl have posted: Leopard is Apple’s vista, Snow Leopard is Apple’s vista.

It would be just natural for the continuation to happen with Lion…

Apple has never produced an equivalent to Vista, especially the very essence of refinement in 10.6.5 thru 10.6.8.

That said Lion is indeed an eye candy upgrade for those who are iToyz lovers.

ljonesj
Nov 19, 2011, 06:36 AM
To the ones that said clean installs fix problems like slowness and such. i have cleaned installed mine after upgrading my sl to lion to see if it would get any quicker. well for me it was just the opposite. it became slower and buggier on my mac mini and it is running 8gb of ram. So for me a clean install made things worse

cube
Nov 19, 2011, 06:38 AM
I don't think Vista broke compatibility in a major way.