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View Full Version : Firewire wanna be


spinner
Sep 30, 2002, 04:26 PM
Looks like USB is trying to play catch up with Firewire again. :rolleyes:

Click (http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960014.html)

sparkleytone
Sep 30, 2002, 04:28 PM
bah.

they are having to modify a "standard" in order to finally get features that firewire has had all along.

cr2sh
Sep 30, 2002, 04:42 PM
the funniest thing about the article is this line:

"The technology is also expected to be used in cell phones and MP3 players. "

Uh.... No?
Thats not technology, thats archaic nonsense.

Chisholm
Sep 30, 2002, 05:19 PM
I'm just looking forward to FireWire2. Its gonna' dust everything!

oldMac
Sep 30, 2002, 06:38 PM
Hate to say it, but it looks like USB 2 is becoming far more prolific than Firewire. The fact is that USB 2 is cheaper and for most users, there isn't much of a perceived performance difference.

My predictions:

1) Firewire will be relegated to high-end niche applications within 2 years.
2) USB 2 will become a defacto standard in the same time frame

Final prediction:

Apple's clinging to FireWire will cause them to be at least a year late to the USB 2 party, leaving Apple consumers to suffer while PCs get all the good peripherals.

medea
Sep 30, 2002, 06:44 PM
I disagree with Oldmac, USB2 has plenty of disadvantages so I think it would a bad move to shift to USB2. PC users might need a faster option than USB but Apple users already have it and it's much more reliable.

P-Worm
Sep 30, 2002, 08:36 PM
Is it true that USB 2 doesn't provide power at the same time. Because if it is that sucks. That's just another thing that makes the iPod so cool.

P-Worm

G4scott
Sep 30, 2002, 10:50 PM
USB sucks. It's good for mice, keyboards, and other small bandwidth devices. USB 2 is for really fast mice and keyboards :rolleyes:

USB is a serial bus... It may be cheaper to put into a device, but then for some devices like hard drives, you need a power supply where firewire wouldn't. Hopefully Firewire2 will mop the floors with USB2...

Another reason why USB sucks: It's made by intel :p

Actually, the problem that I have with USB, is that it's like hooking up a hard drive with an old serial port, where firewire most resembles scsi.

funkywhat2
Oct 2, 2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
USB sucks. It's good for mice, keyboards, and other small bandwidth devices. USB 2 is for really fast mice and keyboards :rolleyes:

USB is a serial bus... It may be cheaper to put into a device, but then for some devices like hard drives, you need a power supply where firewire wouldn't. Hopefully Firewire2 will mop the floors with USB2...

Another reason why USB sucks: It's made by intel :p

Actually, the problem that I have with USB, is that it's like hooking up a hard drive with an old serial port, where firewire most resembles scsi.

isn't firewire a serial standard too? it just carries power, as well as data.

job
Oct 2, 2002, 08:14 PM
I though Firewire was completely new, not based off of any old legacy tech..

funkywhat2
Oct 2, 2002, 08:46 PM
most new standards are...(i think)

dongmin
Oct 2, 2002, 09:18 PM
Firewire is amazing; it's one of the best technologies to come out of Apple (much better than SCSI). But it's suffering the same fate as many Apple technologies: the lack of marketing and slowness of adoption.

I'm starting to lose confidence in the future of firewire. Firewire hasn't made anywhere near the kinds of market strides I expected and hoped it would.

job
Oct 2, 2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by dongmin

I'm starting to lose confidence in the future of firewire. Firewire hasn't made anywhere near the kinds of market strides I expected and hoped it would.

I dunno about that. I've seen countless peripherials (Creative) and desktop and laptop PCs with Firewire ports. They call it by the industry name IEEE 1394, but it's still Firewire. :p

mattevil
Oct 2, 2002, 10:21 PM
my old g4 was hit by lightning the other week. everything but my usb hub and my firewire cd burner was hooked into a surge protector.The lightning took out my usb scanner ,printer, and the usb port in my computer itself. bothe the usb hub hub and my cd burner had ground plugs and hooked to the same outlet yet my firewire drive came out unscathed. that is why i love firewire either that or i hate usb for being such a good cinductor.

backspinner
Oct 3, 2002, 06:32 AM
From the developer point of view is USB2 far better supported than FireWire. It's almost impossible to get simple and easy support for developing FireWire peripherals. The low level is good documented, but the high level and application layer software is difficult to master.

FireWire is only suitable for developers with high volume and enough money. Chipsets for FireWire are twice the price of the USB chipsets and twice the board area as well. And the fee for a vendor identifier is four times more expensive...

I bet that USB2 will find a broader acceptance very soon. Well, at least I like it!

sparkleytone
Oct 3, 2002, 12:32 PM
i believe that the royalties for firewire have been significantly diminished if not completely done away with by now. i do know that the Firewire SDK is public source for the taking. So your point is basically lost.

e-coli
Oct 3, 2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by dongmin
I'm starting to lose confidence in the future of firewire. Firewire hasn't made anywhere near the kinds of market strides I expected and hoped it would.

I have yet to see a camcorder with a USB or serial port. Firewire isn't going anywhere.

It amazes me that all camcorders have Firewire, but most PC's don't. i guess that means most PC users arren't able to import or edit their movies.

ezekielvictor
Dec 2, 2008, 10:35 AM
(Bringing back an old thread.) The truth is that FireWire is vastly inferior to any USB connection for everyday use. Here are the reasons why:

1) Apple totes FireWire's support of hot-plugging, but hot-plugging FireWire devices is extremely risky for the device because the design of the plug allows for shorts to happen on the connection if the plug is not inserted perfectly. You run the risk of damaging your video camera, your audio interface, or your 1 TB hard drive containing your life's work.

2) Apple totes FireWire's support of daisy chaining devices, but this concept is flawed and impractical for many power-hungry FireWire devices. The fact is that performance suffers on the host device in particular, and while this may not be a problem for hard drives where only things like read/write speed are affected, it certainly is an issue when, for example, your audio interface suddenly can't handle the buffer at typical sample rates.

3) FireWire interfaces are notorious for failing when multiple devices are plugged in. Devices receive fluctuating streams of power and may not maintain an adequate signal, especially when one device is switched off or another device plugged into the interface is switched on. It's almost as if all the FireWire ports are acting as one, and in order to do anything simple such as switching off a device, you absolutely must turn off the computer and switch off every device, lest you spoil the other devices with power surges, etc.

Such problems exist for devices which conform to FireWire standard—that is to say, the problems are not caused by the devices but rather by FireWire's inferior engineering.

P-Worm
Dec 2, 2008, 11:05 AM
1) Apple totes FireWire's support of hot-plugging, but hot-plugging FireWire devices is extremely risky for the device because the design of the plug allows for shorts to happen on the connection if the plug is not inserted perfectly. You run the risk of damaging your video camera, your audio interface, or your 1 TB hard drive containing your life's work.

I have never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a source?

2) Apple totes FireWire's support of daisy chaining devices, but this concept is flawed and impractical for many power-hungry FireWire devices. The fact is that performance suffers on the host device in particular, and while this may not be a problem for hard drives where only things like read/write speed are affected, it certainly is an issue when, for example, your audio interface suddenly can't handle the buffer at typical sample rates.

Are you trying to convince me that USB is better in this regard?

3) FireWire interfaces are notorious for failing when multiple devices are plugged in. Devices receive fluctuating streams of power and may not maintain an adequate signal, especially when one device is switched off or another device plugged into the interface is switched on. It's almost as if all the FireWire ports are acting as one, and in order to do anything simple such as switching off a device, you absolutely must turn off the computer and switch off every device, lest you spoil the other devices with power surges, etc.

Again, I haven't heard of this. Source?

Such problems exist for devices which conform to FireWire standard—that is to say, the problems are not caused by the devices but rather by FireWire's inferior engineering.

What are you, an Intel employee? For one thing, it's weird to resurrect such a ridiculously old thread (6 years! Wow, that might be a record!). For another thing, you fail to mention USB's faults such as sustained data rate.

And this is your first and only post so far on the boards? I think I smell troll...

P-Worm

ezekielvictor
Dec 2, 2008, 11:34 AM
I have never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a source?

Here are a few:

http://lowendmac.com/misc/03/0421.html

http://forums.macosxhints.com/archive/index.php/t-67251.html

http://createdigitalmotion.com/2007/08/23/more-visualist-urban-legends-hotplugging-firewire-kills-cameras/

http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/file-transfer/firewire-hot-plugging/

And interestingly enough, a source from this very forum:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=545618

Are you trying to convince me that USB is better in this regard?

I'm merely pointing out that it's irresponsible for a company to push unreliable, unpredictable features onto new technology in a world where technological advances equate to advances in reliability and predictability.

Again, I haven't heard of this. Source?

Here's one about a G5: http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/powermacg5/topic4147.html

I was in the studio recently with an engineer using a G4, and the problem associated with plugging multiple devices into the same interface occurred when he had multiple FireWire hard drives plugged. The 500GB MyBook drive was not receiving power from the machine; he had to reboot his computer, which solved the problem.

For one thing, it's weird to resurrect such a ridiculously old thread (6 years! Wow, that might be a record!). For another thing, you fail to mention USB's faults such as sustained data rate.

And this is your first and only post so far on the boards? I think I smell troll...

I happened upon this post when trying to solve some of my own recent problems with—surprise—my audio interface, my 500 GB hard drive, and my video camera. I'm dumbfounded at how people jump on the FireWire bandwagon when considering that proper FireWire functionality is contingent upon things which are often times outside the user's control, not to mention outside the user's care (e.g. plugging in a 6-pin connector slightly offset in one direction such that a short occurs).

Mac users and PC users each have their own separate problems, but it bothers me when one group purposely overlooks their own problems in order to feel better than the other group.

Furthermore, even if I were an Intel employee (which I'm not :)), I'm unsure how that is even remotely relevant considering that Apple now uses Intel processors.

localoid
Dec 2, 2008, 12:46 PM
...
I was in the studio recently with an engineer using a G4, and the problem associated with plugging multiple devices into the same interface occurred when he had multiple FireWire hard drives plugged. The 500GB MyBook drive was not receiving power from the machine; he had to reboot his computer, which solved the problem. ...

Citing problems that recording studio was having with a G4...?

That's ancient history... :rolleyes:

ezekielvictor
Dec 2, 2008, 12:51 PM
Citing problems that recording studio was having with a G4...?

That's ancient history... :rolleyes:

Considering that FireWire was developed in '95, you'd think that almost a decade later with the G4 they would have had such problems solved.

localoid
Dec 2, 2008, 12:57 PM
Considering that FireWire was developed in '95, you'd think that almost a decade later with the G4 they would have had such problems solved.

What's next -- a debate about the Ford Model T being a better car than the Model A?

Trying citing something regarding Firewire "problems" from this century if you want a meaningful debate.

BittenApple
Dec 2, 2008, 04:54 PM
I work as IT for a very big university in northern california. Out of all the MacPro motherboards (and the iMacs we have for the labs), we never had USB fail on them, only firewire.

localoid
Dec 2, 2008, 06:39 PM
I work as IT for a very big university in northern california. Out of all the MacPro motherboards (and the iMacs we have for the labs), we never had USB fail on them, only firewire.

So would you like for Apple to drop the Ethernet port on its computers and eliminate that "redundant" port? After all you could just plug in a USB ethernet adapter if you needed to use "old fashioned" wired networking....

GSMiller
Dec 2, 2008, 07:24 PM
Using it, a person could plug a handheld or digital camera straight into a printer to produce a photo. PDAs also could swap documents directly or back up data by connecting directly to a portable hard drive. The technology is also expected to be used in cell phones and MP3 players.

Can't we already do all of that, but in different ways? Printers come with memory card slots, so you can print pictures without a computer and can't PDAs swap documents via Bluetooth? The same goes for cell phones, although I do not know of any MP3 players that can/will sync through Bluetooth.

LethalWolfe
Dec 2, 2008, 08:33 PM
What's next -- a debate about the Ford Model T being a better car than the Model A?

Trying citing something regarding Firewire "problems" from this century if you want a meaningful debate.
We had a spree of 3 or 4 Mac towers getting their FW400 ports friend by hot plugging decks about 8 months ago. We hot plug all the time so I can only assume a rented deck w/a fouled port, or a bad cable, made the rounds and caused all the damage. Hot plugging can definitely fry a port w/o warning. That's why I always plug into a FW hub or the back of my cinema display. The last thing I want to do is fry the ports on my mobo and have to send the whole machine away to get fixed.

A problem FW has, from what I've read, is that there are varying degrees of adherence to the FW specs so if you plug a 'janky' FW device into a chain of devices it can cause havoc for everything. I'd still rather have a port-powered FW HDD than one of those lame-@ss USB 2 HDDs that take up two USB ports to be powered. Compete PITA.


Lethal

ezekielvictor
Dec 2, 2008, 11:31 PM
What's next -- a debate about the Ford Model T being a better car than the Model A?

Trying citing something regarding Firewire "problems" from this century if you want a meaningful debate.

You completely missed my point that when FireWire was invented these problems existed, and the fact of the matter is the problems still exist and are as ever present today after 13 years of FireWire's life. That's unacceptable for technology.

So would you like for Apple to drop the Ethernet port on its computers and eliminate that "redundant" port? After all you could just plug in a USB ethernet adapter if you needed to use "old fashioned" wired networking....

Who said anything was redundant? Whom are you quoting? You're completely and repeatedly missing the point. Ethernet and USB are two technologies which are complete by modern standards: They are user-friendly, reliable, and predictable. FireWire is not. That's the point. It's frustrating, and I'm not sure I can spell out the details in simpler terms.

BittenApple
Dec 2, 2008, 11:49 PM
So would you like for Apple to drop the Ethernet port on its computers and eliminate that "redundant" port? After all you could just plug in a USB ethernet adapter if you needed to use "old fashioned" wired networking....

You're getting a tad defensive there; my point was that in my experiences the firewire bus has been prone to failure more than the usb bus. I prefer firewire, im just simply stating my experiences. -.-