PDA

View Full Version : $600 for 4GB, 500GB HD Lenovo. Did I just waste my money buying a Mac Air?




Pages : [1] 2

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 03:41 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

Edit: I actually didn't factor in the cost in Apple softwares, since for windows you pretty much get everything for free after buying to laptop. More money out of my pocket?



MacDawg
Sep 22, 2011, 03:44 PM
These price comparison threads are nothing new

HD v SSD
Win7 v OSX
Form factor
Quality

The list goes on and on and on

If you prefer the Lenovo, get one
My money goes for a Mac always

nebulos
Sep 22, 2011, 03:48 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, I mean look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have
4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

sorry, try again.

the page says "up to i7". configure it with the i7 and look at the price. also look at the weight.

... for starters.

happyslayer
Sep 22, 2011, 03:54 PM
The question is not the specs--although the Air has better specs for its size & weight--the question is whether you care about running OSX. If so, then the Air is the best or maybe only choice. If running OSX is not that big a deal for you, then get the Lenovo.

Personally, I have worked with or services A LOT of different laptops. Nothing is as slick, well-built, thin & light as the Air and it runs OSX, my OS of choice.

blueroom
Sep 22, 2011, 03:56 PM
Windows is a poor mobile OS as it'll keep the fans running. I'd stick with a MacBook and OSX any day.

jca24
Sep 22, 2011, 03:57 PM
my opinion--winblows=pos

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 04:01 PM
Personally, I have worked with or services A LOT of different laptops. Nothing is as slick, well-built, thin & light as the Air and it runs OSX, my OS of choice.

Lots of windows converts are in here, but people are still attached to windows. There is a huge demand for dual boot and parallel. I do see OSX is on the rise, but still have lots of compatibility issues.

At a quick glance, I see 2 people asking for windows on Mac:
1. Dual Boot Windows Off USB http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1232913
2. Windows 8 on 2010 11" Air http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1228895

Anyways, I'll get back on topic.

minnus
Sep 22, 2011, 04:07 PM
Windows is a poor mobile OS as it'll keep the fans running. I'd stick with a MacBook and OSX any day.

Erm...no? It runs when it needs to, just like OSX. There are also many 3rd party programs that allow you to configure fan speeds to your liking...just like OSX.

mwayne85
Sep 22, 2011, 04:24 PM
Just a few things I noticed from the specs you listed:

• Where do you see an i7 model that's $600? I see two i3 models for around $550 and $600. The i7 is a $295 upgrade. Not to mention that i3-2310M is also one of the weakest Sandy Bridge mobile processors available.
• The 14" screen is the same resolution as the 11" Macbook Air. So the 13" model still has a better display, even though it's slightly bigger.
• All the Macbook Airs use SSDs, and they are not cheap. There's no option to upgrade the hard drive on the Lenovo to an SSD. If there was, it would bring up the price substantially.
• That laptop weighs about 2x more than the Air. You're paying extra for the ultraportability of the air.

Even with all that, you could still say the Macbook Airs are pricey. But you get what you pay for. So no. You didn't waste your money. Enjoy your Air and don't have any doubts/remorse.

Beaverman3001
Sep 22, 2011, 04:25 PM
Slow hard drive, twice the weight, worse battery life. You are comparing a piece of crap to a gold standard. Yea, it is $600, for a reason.

Brandon0448
Sep 22, 2011, 04:28 PM
Windows is a poor mobile OS as it'll keep the fans running. I'd stick with a MacBook and OSX any day.

Haha so does OSX, at no point while you are running you macbook will the fans not be on. Windows is just as good of an operating system. It will do everything OSX does and some. It all comes down to preference.

I think the Macbook Air is one of the few devices Apple has made this is actually price competitive with other devices that are on par with its specs. Look at any of the Windows ultraportables and while they have a cheaper starting price once you get the hardware equal they will have very similar price. But the Macbook will always be lighter and sleeker (so far).

KPOM
Sep 22, 2011, 04:31 PM
Hey, Moderator. You need to stop ranting. What you said have no valid arguments, if you feel you are right, say why it is better. Otherwise you are an idiot who turns the blind eyes to the truth.

The E420 isn't comparable to the MacBook Air. The closest one on that website is the E220. Equip the E220 with the 1.5GHz i7 (which is still slower than the base i5 in the 13" MacBook Air and comparable to the 1.6GHz i5 in the 11"), a 128GB SSD, and Bluetooth, and the price jumps to $1020 after the promotion. Not bad, but it is much closer to the $1199 price of the 11" Air that gets you a similar screen and a lighter machine.

rayjay86
Sep 22, 2011, 04:34 PM
I'm a recent Mac convert. If there is one thing I have learned it is that trying to compare a Windows-based machine with a Mac on a Mac forum is probably pointless.

While I agree there are aspects of Mac OSX that I enjoy there are features that I miss from Windows (snap window feature for e.g.).

There are people who will always blindly go with Apple (the majority of them are on this site) despite there being a better alternative (read: cost-effective).

To address your point though, no you didn't waste your money UNLESS you are only using your notebook as a desktop replacement computer that never leaves your house and you only email/word process on it. Then yes you did. If you travel and do any moderate computing tasks you will like the Air. I know I do.

DJBBOX
Sep 22, 2011, 04:36 PM
i think this is a no brainer. i don't see any room for comparison at all. MBA is as sexy and fast as it gets in that form factor.

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 04:37 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

Yes you did. But not because the Lenova is a better value... It's because you got the wrong machine for you. If you are questioning your Mac over a Windows computer you aren't ready to be in the Apple ecosystem. Most users on this site have multiple Apple devices; Atv, ipad, ipod, multiple macs. Having one Apple device is a good start not a good value.

DoghouseMike
Sep 22, 2011, 04:43 PM
Blah blah blah.

But, for rayjay86, check out bettertouchtool, it'll let you do the windows snap thing, and about a million other things too, and the price can't be beat

Brandon0448
Sep 22, 2011, 04:53 PM
Yes you did. But not because the Lenova is a better value... It's because you got the wrong machine for you. If you are questioning your Mac over a Windows computer you aren't ready to be in the Apple ecosystem. Most users on this site have multiple Apple devices; Atv, ipad, ipod, multiple macs. Having one Apple device is a good start not a good value.

I couldn't disagree with you more, if he is questioning if his dollar was well spent he is being a good consumer, obviously what you aren't. The majority of people don't want to waste their hard earned money by just throwing stacks of cash at anything with an apple on the back of it. The majority of Apple products are ridiculously overpriced and I will personally never own them. I have a Macbook Air and a iPhone 4 because I think both of these products were very reasonably priced and I love them.

marzer
Sep 22, 2011, 05:10 PM
questioning if his dollar was well spent he is being a good consumer, obviously what you aren't.

Disagree! Questioning if your dollar WILL be well spent is being an wary, prudent consumer. Questioning if your dollar WAS well spent is being an "idiot."

Brandon0448
Sep 22, 2011, 05:20 PM
Disagree! Questioning if your dollar WILL be well spent is being an wary, prudent consumer. Questioning if your dollar WAS well spent is being an "idiot."

Same concept, you can always return your product if you feel your dollar was not well spent.

ntrigue
Sep 22, 2011, 05:22 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

Only 6 hours? Does it run OS X?

scarred
Sep 22, 2011, 05:32 PM
If you feel convinced that the macbook air was not worth the price, and you feel your money would have been better spent somewhere else, than why are you even asking if you wasted money? Of course you did.

I however, think that lenovo is a waste of money. $600 is a lot, and I could find a number of better places to spend it on then a lenovo.

JSalig
Sep 22, 2011, 05:35 PM
I will never get another windows laptop not matter how cheap they are. I can't believe the amount of crap I was willing to put up with on a daily basis.

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 05:47 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more, if he is questioning if his dollar was well spent he is being a good consumer, obviously what you aren't. The majority of people don't want to waste their hard earned money by just throwing stacks of cash at anything with an apple on the back of it. The majority of Apple products are ridiculously overpriced and I will personally never own them. I have a Macbook Air and a iPhone 4 because I think both of these products were very reasonably priced and I love them.

First... you don't know me so don't judge people you don't know.

I'm a very very frugal consumer... but I go in KNOWING I am spending more on Apple Products... I spent 797 on my MBA a good 200 under retail and besides my iPad I don't spend retail on my Apple products. I buy Apple products because I like the integration and ease of use. I certainly know how to get all my windows products to play nice... but I don't like the futzing that is involved at times.

Let's face it... most people buy Apple products to be trendy... I know iPhone users who don't put music or videos on it or use any apps... what's the point? They just have it because it's trendy. But when you're being trendy it's not about having the best deal. Which is what this OP seems to be discussing... yes the Lenova is easier on the wallet, but it doesn't run OSX, which should be the KEY reason to own a Mac... not cause it's great looking or "a good deal"

For this reason alone I am answering his question:
"Did I just waste my money buying a Mac Air"

In context of a Lenova computer it's a very solid YES because he isn't ready for a Mac; be in financially, technologically or whatever reason.

3dflyboy1
Sep 22, 2011, 05:48 PM
I will never get another windows laptop not matter how cheap they are. I can't believe the amount of crap I was willing to put up with on a daily basis.

If everybody thought the way you do there would be absolutely no competition and we'd all be paying outrageous prices for computers. :rolleyes:

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 05:57 PM
I have a Macbook Air and a iPhone 4 because I think both of these products were very reasonably priced and I love them.

The iPhone is NOT reasonably priced compared to some Android phones... at best it's on par price wise but I'm sure I can find a similarly spec'd Android device for cheaper than the equivalent iPhone (3Gs,4, etc)

You also fall in the "owning more than one Apple device" crowd.

Poindexter333
Sep 22, 2011, 06:00 PM
@MrXiro- "Most people buy Apple products just to be trendy." Are you frakking kidding me?

Hundreds of millions of products sold, almost as many customers worldwide, and most of them pay a premium just to be trendy, not for the exact same reasons you mention- integration, ease of use and lack of futzing? How about form, design, and quality...not to mention the fantastic OS (well, Lion....nevermind)?

Are you special or something? Clairvoyant??? How could you possibly be in any position to know?

I call bull manure.:roll eyes:

Brandon0448
Sep 22, 2011, 06:12 PM
Let's face it... most people buy Apple products to be trendy... I know iPhone users who don't put music or videos on it... what's the point? They just have it because it's trendy. But when you're being trendy it's not about having the best deal. Which is what this OP seems to be discussing... yes the Lenova is easier on the wallet, but it doesn't run OSX, which should be the KEY reason to own a Mac... not cause it's great looking or "a good deal"


OSX was the very last reason I purchased my MBA. I bought it because I loved the computer itself, not the software that was preloaded on it. If there was an option to have Windows 7 preloaded on my Mac i probably would of done it off the start. Not because I hate OSX but because I have extensive experience using Windows. But OSX is slowly growing on me.

I don't have any music or videos on my iPhone. I find it unnecessary to drain my phones battery by listening to music, thats what I have an iPod for. I love my iPhone because it just works. Something a lot of other phone manufactures have failed to do. I have my 16gig jailbroken iPhone pretty much full of just apps and a couple hundred photos and it still fast and responsive. A feat I have seen no other smartphone be able to accomplish.

JSalig
Sep 22, 2011, 06:31 PM
If everybody thought the way you do there would be absolutely no competition and we'd all be paying outrageous prices for computers. :rolleyes:

Which has what to do with what? You mean to tell me that if everyone hated a certain brand of product and preferred a competing brand of product, it would lessen competition in the marketplace? What a brilliant deduction!!!...which has absolutely nothing do with me, specifically, preferring OSX to windows.

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 06:31 PM
@MrXiro- "Most people buy Apple products just to be trendy." Are you frakking kidding me?

Hundreds of millions of products sold, almost as many customers worldwide, and most of them pay a premium just to be trendy, not for the exact same reasons you mention- integration, ease of use and lack of futzing? How about form, design, and quality...not to mention the fantastic OS (well, Lion....nevermind)?

Are you special or something? Clairvoyant??? How could you possibly be in any position to know?

I call bull manure.:roll eyes:

If everyone was buying for their "actual uses" most would stick to windows and dumb phones... most people don't take advantage of the multiple features that Apple offers... you're basing this off of YOUR use... those of uses of us "hardcore geeks".

You can't honestly tell me that a majority of the world has wirelessly networked multiple devices in their home to stream everywhere. We here are a niche in society... the niche is growing every day as Apple products are more widely seen in pop culture (movies, TV shows or just hearsay from "a friend who owns an iPhone") but let's not be fooled that Apple's growth as a product line isn't because it being trendy but it's technological innovations.

Also your eye rolls and sarcasm isn't appreciated. I'm just giving my opinion on why the OP shouldn't bother with an MBA.

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 06:45 PM
OSX was the very last reason I purchased my MBA. I bought it because I loved the computer itself, not the software that was preloaded on it. If there was an option to have Windows 7 preloaded on my Mac i probably would of done it off the start. Not because I hate OSX but because I have extensive experience using Windows. But OSX is slowly growing on me.

I don't have any music or videos on my iPhone. I find it unnecessary to drain my phones battery by listening to music, thats what I have an iPod for. I love my iPhone because it just works. Something a lot of other phone manufactures have failed to do. I have my 16gig jailbroken iPhone pretty much full of just apps and a couple hundred photos and it still fast and responsive. A feat I have seen no other smartphone be able to accomplish.

It's already established that you're in the apple ecosystem... you're using iOS apps... be it Cydia or AppStore... You've even stated yourself that OSX is growing on you.

And a point; maybe I haven't been able to clearly convey... is that clearly the OP was a windows guy to begin with. He's comparing a "good deal" windows computer with an "apple taxed" Mac product. If he paid 1300 dollars for a MBA to run windows then YES he's wasted his money. If he came to buy an Mac for the OSX then he's gotten a good deal.

I made the switch about 5 years ago, I put Rock Box on my first two iPods because I hated using iTunes... It took some getting used to it all but now I can't even imagine using a windows computer in every day life. (I still have an Android phone because I hate At&t and am not yet eligible for an upgrade)

As much as the world wants the MBA to be something called something different... it's really just an extremely nice netbook. It's not great for gaming, it can't be used to seriously edit media; etc. I love my MBA but I don't really use it for anything more than surfing the net and checking email... occasionally I'll screen share my iMac and control it from my bedroom because I'm too lazy to leave my bed. :P

Brandon0448
Sep 22, 2011, 06:46 PM
If everyone was buying for their "uses" most would stick to windows and dumb phones... most people don't take advantage of the multiple features that Apple offers... you're basing this off of YOUR use... those of us "hardcore geeks".

You can't honestly tell me that a majority of the world has wirelessly networked multiple devices in their home to stream everywhere. We here are a niche in society... the niche is growing every day as Apple products are more wildly seen in pop culture (movies, TV shows or just hearsay from "a friend who owns an iPhone") but let's not be fooled that Apple isn't growing as a product line because it is trendy over it's technological innovations.

And what exactly are these features that only Apple offers? As far as I'm concerned you can do anything in Windows that can in OSX and then some. Remotely accessing your network is not a Apple only feature.

jsolares
Sep 22, 2011, 06:48 PM
It really depends on if you wish to pay more for the reduced size of the Air or not

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 07:00 PM
And what exactly are these features that only Apple offers? As far as I'm concerned you can do anything in Windows that can in OSX and then some. Remotely accessing your network is not a Apple only feature.

But the ease of use of checking off 1 box to remote access is.

Just as plugging in an Atv to a TV is easier than setting up a Roku to stream media on your computer... I'm not saying it takes rocket science to set up a Roku but to a person that isn't as versed as your self with setting up computers and devices just plugging in a device (HDMI, POWER) and opening iTunes is a heck of a lot easier. Which is one of the things that I enjoy about running apple products.

----------

But again my point isn't all of this... it's that the OP should stick to the Lenova (and windows) if he feels that his MBA isn't worth it... because besides it's thinness and looks (which will soon have competition) it's really not a better deal for him.

accessoriesguy
Sep 22, 2011, 07:01 PM
brand new windows 7


there's a brand new windows 7 :eek:

andrewlgm
Sep 22, 2011, 07:08 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

I'm seriously considering a windows machine for my next computer. I love my current macbook, but when it comes time to replace it, most new laptops are increasing in quality and performance to match the macbook pro and I don't think I feel like paying for the apple tax. You can probably get a top windows machine for the same or better specs for almost $800 less if not more. Mac Os X is better than windows, no question there, but if you're a "capable" windows user, I'd say the price overcharge for mac os x is not necessary.

Brandon0448
Sep 22, 2011, 07:09 PM
But again my point isn't all of this... it's that the OP should stick to the Lenova (and windows) if he feels that his MBA isn't worth it... because besides it's thinness and looks (which will soon have competition) it's really not a better deal for him.

And my point is that the MBA IS a good deal. Once you get the Lenova to to the specs of the MBA the price starts to look pretty similar.

MrXiro
Sep 22, 2011, 07:19 PM
And my point is that the MBA IS a good deal. Once you get the Lenova to to the specs of the MBA the price starts to look pretty similar.

I'm not sure he sees it that way... But if he agrees with you then he should keep the mba.

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 07:32 PM
I really didn't want to argue when I started this thread, but I owe this one to all the haters. While most you who agreed MacBook Air is overpriced, you can't explain why you paid more for it.

Also, some of you rely heavily on Windows, that says something about Windows. Again I point out the demand for dual boot or parallel to run windows on Mac.

For those who answered my post and disagreed, I couldn't find any hardware or software comparison besides the old trolls and rants.

Throw in some facts for everyone.

I will never get another windows laptop not matter how cheap they are. I can't believe the amount of crap I was willing to put up with on a daily basis.

And for JSalig, here are some problems in Mac, just to let you know. I don't want to see you ranting on any windows forum about Mac just like you did here.

1. Fans Running High http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1232953

2. Macbook Air gets hot after waking up http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1232784
Nobody has solutions to these problems yet.

nebulos
Sep 22, 2011, 07:45 PM
priced with the i7 and a 128GB SSD, the Lenovo E220s is $1000.

note: this particular i7 is actually clocked in between the i5 of the 11 and 13 MBA.

the screen is 12.5" @ 1366x768.

the E220 weighs 3.23lbs. all others in this line are between 4-5lbs.

now we could go down the list: trackpad, backlit keys, ...

as the very first commenter said, these threads are old news. but now they make even less sense, as Apple has been offering a better and better value.

now, yes, these threads are pointless, but i'll admit sometimes i can't resist a good pointless online argument.

OP, you're complaining that people weren't giving you quantitative comparison arguments? you bought the MBA without doing this yourself, clearly. now you want us to do it for you?

and, MBA a netbook? and Macs only bought to look cool? get real.

this has all been thrown back and forth SO MANY TIMES. please, let's be more creative about what to argue about.

DarwinOSX
Sep 22, 2011, 07:49 PM
If you don't mind mediocre operating systems, hardware, service and support then by all means buy this piece of junk Lenovo. Then you can spend your entire ownership of it convincing yourself it is just as good as an Air.


I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

orfeas0
Sep 22, 2011, 08:05 PM
And for JSalig, here are some problems in Mac, just to let you know. I don't want to see you ranting on any windows forum about Mac just like you did here.

1. Fans Running High http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1232953

2. Macbook Air gets hot after waking up http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1232784
Nobody has solutions to these problems yet.

No **** Sherlock, aren't all apple products perfect?
Just because someone's macbook air's fans are running high doesn't make the macbook air a bad product. There's a chance for every single technological product to fail. Nobody's perfect.
Wanna check lenovo's site for problems?
This thread's title is "OS wiped out during Bluetooth drivers update".
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-and-newer-T-series/OS-wiped-out-during-Bluetooth-drivers-update/td-p/437525
The whole OS wiped out by a bluetooth update. GOOD JOB LENOVO.
You can check http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-and-newer-T-series/bd-p/T400_series_ThinkPads for many other problems on Lenovo products.

I know this doesn't mean anything, as all computers have problems, but since you just blindly copied the first 2 threads you saw about MBA problems, I'll do the same.

About the MBA's price, as many others stated, the model you linked us goes up to 1000$ when specced like the MBA, and still has:
Worse screen resolution
Worse OS (depends on your liking, though)
Worse build quality
Worse trackpad
Probably worse keyboard

If you don't like the MBA, go give it back. But I'm telling you it's worth it, unless you don't have the money for it.

nebulos
Sep 22, 2011, 08:16 PM
For those who answered my post and disagreed, I couldn't find any hardware or software comparison besides the old trolls and rants.

Throw in some facts for everyone.

The E420 isn't comparable to the MacBook Air. The closest one on that website is the E220. Equip the E220 with the 1.5GHz i7 (which is still slower than the base i5 in the 13" MacBook Air and comparable to the 1.6GHz i5 in the 11"), a 128GB SSD, and Bluetooth, and the price jumps to $1020 after the promotion. Not bad, but it is much closer to the $1199 price of the 11" Air that gets you a similar screen and a lighter machine.

... 1lb lighter!

indeed. sorry, I missed this earlier, KPOM.

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 08:25 PM
If you don't mind mediocre operating systems, hardware, service and support then by all means buy this piece of junk Lenovo. Then you can spend your entire ownership of it convincing yourself it is just as good as an Air.

Just because you like something, you don't have to hate something else.

Here is Thinkpad X1, I thought it's pretty cool, it's a TOUCHSCREEN, WOW!!! ;)

Up to 2nd generation Intel® Core™ i7
Up to Genuine Windows® 7 Professional 64-bit
Lenovo Enhanced Experience 2.0 for Windows® 7, with optional RapidDrive
Starting at 3.7 pounds
Up to 10 hours with slice battery
13.3" HD SuperBright LCD
Up to 8GB integrated DDR3 SDRAM
Up to 160GB SSD (optional 320GB HDD)


Look here http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/x-series/index.html
and here http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/x-series/index.html

Windows is not a mediocre OS, it has majority share of the market, for instance, your chase ATM machine, cashier register are all Windows system. I have actually seen the windows start button on screen when some of these computers reboot.

nebulos
Sep 22, 2011, 08:34 PM
Just because you like something, you don't have to hate something else.

agreed. i don't get why so many have to instantly bash anything non-Apple.


Here is Thinkpad X1, I thought it's pretty cool, it's a TOUCHSCREEN, WOW!!! ;)

Up to 2nd generation Intel® Core™ i7
Up to Genuine Windows® 7 Professional 64-bit
Lenovo Enhanced Experience 2.0 for Windows® 7, with optional RapidDrive
Starting at 3.7 pounds
Up to 10 hours with slice battery
13.3" HD SuperBright LCD
Up to 8GB integrated DDR3 SDRAM
Up to 160GB SSD (optional 320GB HDD)


http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/x-series/index.html



the thinkpad X1 is NOT touchscreen. the X220 tablet is.

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 09:16 PM
@nebulos, yes.

Buildbright
Sep 22, 2011, 09:36 PM
Just buy your Lenovo no need to argue. I bought a Macbook Air because windows laptops are toss away items. I love windows 7 but OSX is great as well. Both have there pros and cons but the facts are simple.

Apple Products

PROs
Great Face to Face Support
Superb build quality
Insane Resale Value (no pc can do this)

CONs
Not Cheap (No stripped down models avail)
Limited Hardware Options (No blu ray or USB 3.0)

Windows Laptops

PROs
Cheap Models Avail
Lots of Hardware Options

CONs
Build quality is a fail
Support is so so
Resale Value is useless
No OSX without hacking

Gregintosh
Sep 22, 2011, 09:54 PM
Couple quick things:

1. MacBook Air is not overpriced. There is yet to be a PC laptop that matches specs, form factor, and build quality. PC Manufactuers even admit they cannot match the MacBook Air price (article: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Notebook-Makers-Complain-Intel-s-Ultrabooks-Can-t-Outprice-the-MacBook-Air-214953.shtml)

2. For the person who said the iPhone is overpriced for the specs, if there is one machine where specs matter virtually nothing and experience is everything its a Phone. The iPhone has a superb user experience. It does not matter how much mega hurts or giga pixels your phone has, as long as it runs smoothly and does what you want it to do in a way that delights you its all that matters.

Does having an extra 256MB of memory make your conversations more engaging? Does having an extra megapixel or two really make a difference when the photo is down sampled for Facebook? Does having a few extra megahertz on your phone make you win at angry birds more often? No, No, and No.

3. There is a high demand for Parallels and VMware not because Mac users love Windows but because sometimes we are stuck using Windows only apps for work. Until Macs become more adopted in work places and enterprises, these programs will continue to thrive.

4. The Lenovo computer in the debate is not the same class of machine as the air. I don't think its a bad machine, and I am not a PC hater, but a conventional hard drive just can't compete with an SSD, especially in a laptop.

The form factor and other specs also should be considered carefully and as some people pointed out the MBA out-specs it. So yeah, the Lenovo machine is not a bad computer on its own merits, but the MBA is certainly a whole other animal.

Its like saying did I make a mistake buying a Lexus cause this Honda is a good deal. If you are in the market for a luxury car, the Lexus is your choice. If you are in the market for a budget or value car, the Honda is your choice.

XX55XX
Sep 22, 2011, 09:56 PM
Lenovo Thinkpads are a different breed of laptop. Sure, they are big, bulky, and less svelte, but the build quality is excellent (like Apple), and they are built like tanks. Of course, the Edges are in a different category, but the core Thinkpad line is very nice and very affordable. If you love Mac OS X too much, you can turn it into a Hackintosh, which is a very trivial process these days.

I'll take the Thinkpad aesthetic any day over the curvy and shiny MacBooks that Apple offers these days.

I even bought a T420 to replace my two-year old MacBook Pro a few months ago. Great machine (even if it is a little heavier).

Poindexter333
Sep 22, 2011, 09:59 PM
How about this rephrasing of the OP's question-

what if an incremental $500-$600 is not a deal breaker?

Not exactly "cost-no-object" but almost... The Apple products almost always win hands down for me despite any premium over all the years I have been a customer- 1977. I used IIe's at first, then Macs exclusively for my business (Wall St/trading, then contracting) since the first Mac. I have yet to find any absolutely mission-critical software- or task- that I couldn't find or do on the MacOs- but that's me. YMMV. Time has always been money for me, and the down-time (including headaches, networking, integration and TS) on anything but NT or -from what I hear- W7- has always been abominable- not that Macs are flawless either.

I love my MBA and would pay double or triple if I had to (which was almost the case for the first Rev A MBA!) since it earns me money every minute of the day- and it's a write-off. :D

KPOM
Sep 22, 2011, 10:02 PM
Windows is not a mediocre OS, it has majority share of the market, for instance, your chase ATM machine, cashier register are all Windows system. I have actually seen the windows start button on screen when some of these computers reboot.

So is should use the OS that operates ATMs because it has more market share? If that's all that matters, then no one would have used Intel chips in the 1990s because the PowerPC had a higher market share from all the embedded chips out there.

feflower
Sep 22, 2011, 10:04 PM
Windows is not a mediocre OS, it has majority share of the market, for instance, your chase ATM machine, cashier register are all Windows system. I have actually seen the windows start button on screen when some of these computers reboot.

You are arguing ad populum. This is a weak argumentation strategy. Market share has nothing to do with quality of product.

KPOM
Sep 22, 2011, 10:06 PM
For those who answered my post and disagreed, I couldn't find any hardware or software comparison besides the old trolls and rants.


So pointing out that the one Lenovo notebook on your site was priced within $170 when equipped with an SSD, and a slower processor and larger, heavier form factor is trolling and ranting?

No one is denying that the Lenovo E220 is a nice ultraportable and is reasonably priced, and a decent comparison to the MacBook Air. However, the E420 you mentioned isn't comparable to the MacBook Air. If you want to argue that the 13" Pro is overpriced, go ahead and point to the E420. But don't say the MacBook Air is overpriced because a notebook that weighs twice as much and has fewer features costs half as much as the 11" Air.

scarred
Sep 22, 2011, 10:08 PM
I really didn't want to argue when I started this thread, but I owe this one to all the haters. While most you who agreed MacBook Air is overpriced, you can't explain why you paid more for it.


Excuse me? I know exactly why I bought the Macbook Air. Just because you don't know why you bought it, doesn't mean we didn't. Dude, just return it if you think you got ripped off. Pretty obvious no one is going to convince you otherwise.

KPOM
Sep 22, 2011, 10:31 PM
Looking back at the OPs other threads, it appears he purchased the MacBook Air at the beginning of the month (and thus is outside the return window), and was a first time Mac buyer. I'm sensing buyers remorse, and s/he is now just looking for a reason, any reason, to bash Macs and Apples as overpriced. This is at least the second thread calling the MacBook Air overpriced and claiming that Apple somehow "ripped off" the buyer. There is no reasoning with someone with this view, so it's probably best to just let it go.

shiyele
Sep 22, 2011, 10:57 PM
From what i can tell from searching should pretty much be:7" Eken M009S 800MHz 720p Quality Android 2.2 Tablet PC
USD$ 69.49
http://www.stopfinger.com/goods_c3BlY19pZAk1ODY4.html

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 11:03 PM
From what i can tell from searching should pretty much be:7" Eken M009S 800MHz 720p Quality Android 2.2 Tablet PC
USD$ 69.49
http://www.stopfinger.com/goods_c3BlY19pZAk1ODY4.html

Knowing how angry some people are right now, I'd be scared to link this. But this is a very interesting deal, I have never seen it.

ntrigue
Sep 22, 2011, 11:09 PM
Windows is a miserable experience after six months. Sure your Lenovo will feel shiny and new but to truly maintain a Windows PC you have to plan on writing zeroes to the disk and starting fresh every six months. Sure you can sometimes get a fast enough processor to hide the fragmentation, viruses and spyware but it WILL catch up with you.

Why did I get an Apple MacBook Air?

1. Every six months I run Onyx, it requires 8 minutes and my Air is good as new before you've even backed up your first folder preparing for the great wipe.

2. I value reliability, lightness and form factor beyond processor speed. The keyboard feedback matters. The responsiveness of the trackpad matters. Being away from home all day and knowing when I open the Air it will have the battery life to keep going another six hours matters.

3. Due to driver issues, viruses, spyware, bloat and maintenance I insist on OS X. There are many available choices but for my needs I can't beat the speed, quiet, battery and form factor of an Air.

OP and many millions buy for specs rather than experience and up until now Apple pricing prevented entry for many, but come on $999 for OS X on an Air...

kulimer
Sep 22, 2011, 11:47 PM
Anyone dare to compare them side by side, and tell me straight in the eye, MacBook is better? Well, you can't really see my eyes.

Queen6
Sep 22, 2011, 11:58 PM
As with all in life you get what you pay for, if you want the Lenovo go for it they are great machines, and Windows 7 is a mature OS.

Apple is offering something different as in a total package, a very strong record of reliability, the best customer support and great resale value. One other option to consider; on average Mac`s have a far longer useable lifecycle than the average PC system and over the longterm can work out less in terms of ownership cost, as you long as dont get caught up in upgrading too frequently.

A fully loaded ThinkPad can equal the cost of a Mac, the big difference is when you decide to let go of the computer the Mac will return a fair percentage of the original cost, a ThinkPad will fair than most PC based systems, however it wont come close to what the Mac will return...

ntrigue
Sep 23, 2011, 12:03 AM
Anyone dare to compare them side by side, and tell me straight in the eye, MacBook is better? Well, you can't really see my eyes.

I have a Lenovo desktop at work that has better specs than the laptop you listed. I do as much work as possible on my Air.

2IS
Sep 23, 2011, 12:37 AM
Windows is a poor mobile OS as it'll keep the fans running. I'd stick with a MacBook and OSX any day.

Apparently someone forgot to mention that to my Windows 7 laptops. Someone also forgot to mention that to my Air when running bootcamped Windows 7 as the fans are just as quiet and battery life is within 10-15 minutes of what it is in OSX.

Windows is a miserable experience after six months. Sure your Lenovo will feel shiny and new but to truly maintain a Windows PC you have to plan on writing zeroes to the disk and starting fresh every six months. Sure you can sometimes get a fast enough processor to hide the fragmentation, viruses and spyware but it WILL catch up with you.

I see this thread has no shortage of people who haven't got a clue. I'm not exaggerating a bit when I say everything you just claimed is fabricated BS.

alecgold
Sep 23, 2011, 01:32 AM
I do think those four have a point. If you seriously consider being ripped off when you are paying twice as much for a laptop that is half as thin and half the weight, with much, much better specs, you are either incredible stupid or YOU are just trolling. I really can't see why you would compare this Lenovo to a MBA. There are others, lenovo's, Samsung and perhaps a sony, that are worth comparing with the MBA.

And yes, I'm a apple fanboy, but not blindly so. I'm a fanboy because they do a lot of things really, really well. And I do like the competition that Samsung and others are putting up, it will keep apple on their toes, I hope.

MacinDoc
Sep 23, 2011, 01:37 AM
Compare apples to Apples. In the ultraportable category, nobody offers more for less. http://www.macrumors.com/2011/08/03/intel-ultrabooks-unable-to-undercut-macbook-air-prices/.

So the reason is more expensive is because it's an ultraportable, not because it's a Mac.

Buildbright
Sep 23, 2011, 02:08 AM
Looking you straight in the eye. The Macbook Air is a better machine overall. Better performance, investment, flexibility, and build quality. The lenovo is a good machine, the Macbook Air is a Great machine it does everything the Lenovo does and more.

Abazigal
Sep 23, 2011, 02:24 AM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

If it is one thing I have learnt in life, it is that you get what you pay for. So if you want something good, you need to be willing to shell out good money for it. Same goes for computers.

If you choose to buy a cheaper laptop with the intention of replacing it every year, then you have just answered your own question of why it is that cheap.

If the lenovo laptop suits your needs, then it could be just that you are not in a position to take full advantage of most/all of a MBA's features. For instance, if your laptop never leaves your home table, then maybe you would be indifferent to a heavier/bulkier (and also cheaper) computer since portability apparently isn't an issue.

Seriously, you have already bought your MBA, it's a done deal. If you don't plan on selling it, why not just try to enjoy it rather than vent your frustrations here? Honestly, I don't see why the people here should care less; it really isn't their money or problem. :confused:

tmoerel
Sep 23, 2011, 02:31 AM
I'm a recent Mac convert. If there is one thing I have learned it is that trying to compare a Windows-based machine with a Mac on a Mac forum is probably pointless.

While I agree there are aspects of Mac OSX that I enjoy there are features that I miss from Windows (snap window feature for e.g.).

There are people who will always blindly go with Apple (the majority of them are on this site) despite there being a better alternative (read: cost-effective).

To address your point though, no you didn't waste your money UNLESS you are only using your notebook as a desktop replacement computer that never leaves your house and you only email/word process on it. Then yes you did. If you travel and do any moderate computing tasks you will like the Air. I know I do.

If you are missing Snap Windows install BetterTouchTool. It also allows you to define many more gestures and it is free.

Goratrix
Sep 23, 2011, 03:08 AM
But the ease of use of checking off 1 box to remote access is.

Just as plugging in an Atv to a TV is easier than setting up a Roku to stream media on your computer

Well, on windows, I can buy a $30 adapter and plug it into my TV. Then I just need to press one button, and I can stream ANYTHING I want WIRELESSLY from my notebook to my TV. Anything. Can you do that on your Mac? Or do you need to use ATV and iTunes only?

And btw, it's called "Intel Wireless Display". And if you have any 2011 Macbook, you have it in there too. But Apple doesn't want you to know and doesn't want you to use it, because they need to sell you more ATV boxes. How nice of them :rolleyes:

gnasher729
Sep 23, 2011, 04:58 AM
I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.

You can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, buy another one, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and as a result you spent two years with a rubbish laptop and now you have nothing. Instead you can enjoy the MacBook Air for two years, and after two years you have a MacBook Air that hasn't even reached half its life expectancy and is still going strong. And around that time I think there should be another big cat ready to leap on the MBA making you enjoy it even more.

Well, on windows, I can buy a $30 adapter and plug it into my TV. Then I just need to press one button, and I can stream ANYTHING I want WIRELESSLY from my notebook to my TV. Anything.

Buy it. Tell us how it works.

Anyone dare to compare them side by side, and tell me straight in the eye, MacBook is better? Well, you can't really see my eyes.

Website by website, or side by side? Side by side, there is no PC laptop that comes anywhere near an Apple laptop, MacBook Pro or MacBook Air. At my place of work, the most hardened Windows users try to get a MacBook Air and install Windows on it (we have company wide Windows licenses).

Goratrix
Sep 23, 2011, 05:04 AM
Buy it. Tell us how it works.

I have it, works perfectly, thanks for asking :)

deeddawg
Sep 23, 2011, 06:40 AM
Anyone dare to compare them side by side, and tell me straight in the eye, MacBook is better? Well, you can't really see my eyes.

Define "better" and you'll get a more useful discussion.

Looking at the E420s, once you add a 128GB SSD and bluetooth you're at $950. The MBA13/128 is half the thickness (17mm vs 31.2mm), nearly 20 ounces lighter (2.96lb vs 4.14lb), and gives a better resolution display (1440x900 vs 1366x768).

If the only thing you care about is the price, then yes you can save money in comparison to Apple laptops. Apple competes on quality, design, and user "experience" -- if you don't care about any of those, go buy the Lenovo. Sort of like the difference between going to Ponderosa vs Ruth's Chris steakhouse. Both will serve you a steak dinner. :D

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 06:46 AM
Anyone dare to compare them side by side, and tell me straight in the eye, MacBook is better? Well, you can't really see my eyes.

I have pointed out that the MacBook Air has a faster processor than the E220 (though just barely if you are using an 11" MacBook Air), and weighs .3-.9lbs less (depending on if you compare it to the 13" or 11" Air). The 13" also has a higher resolution display. Whether those features are worth $170-$270 is a matter of judgment.



And btw, it's called "Intel Wireless Display". And if you have any 2011 Macbook, you have it in there too. But Apple doesn't want you to know and doesn't want you to use it, because they need to sell you more ATV boxes. How nice of them :rolleyes:

I'm aware that the Sandy Bridge chips include WiDi. However, does it work on any computer equipped with it, or does it need to be enabled through another controller? Stated otherwise, is it possible to enable WiDi in Boot Camp on a 2011 MacBook Pro or MacBook Air? (This is a question, non-rhetorical).

Goratrix
Sep 23, 2011, 06:56 AM
I'm aware that the Sandy Bridge chips include WiDi. However, does it work on any computer equipped with it, or does it need to be enabled through another controller? Stated otherwise, is it possible to enable WiDi in Boot Camp on a 2011 MacBook Pro or MacBook Air? (This is a question, non-rhetorical).

Yes, it works on any Sandy Bridge notebook, you just need to install the drivers/software from Intel or your computer manufacturer. Not sure about the BootCamp compatibility, but AFAIK the Windows drivers for MacBooks are provided by Apple? The generic Intel drivers are here: http://www.intel.com/support/wireless/wtech/iwd/sb/CS-031109.htm

halledise
Sep 23, 2011, 07:15 AM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

you sure screwed up BIG TIME. :rolleyes:
sell your MBAir as soon as possible and buy the Lenovo!
like WOW, man :D

Pipper99
Sep 23, 2011, 09:04 AM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.

Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

I like the "brand new windows 7" spec. I was upset that my new MBA came with a slightly used Lion. :)

LordVic
Sep 23, 2011, 09:14 AM
I dont think it's a troll. This is a common question that people who don't know how the industry works ask.

"Why should i pay 999 for apples xxxx, when Lenova makes a YYYY for less?"

this is where the mythical "apple tax" often gets brought up, and many don't understand really what they're talking about. They just think you pay more for a Mac.

I'm a lifelong PC user myself. 10 years ago, yes, there was a clear "apple tax" in which if you built a machine for windows that was 100% identical. Apple was more expensive.

But thats gone today. What people see as the apple tax is a lack of options. Yes you can build a Windows based laptop for $500. yes, that is significantly less than the Apple variant.

But then you have to start comparing the nitty gritty details. Parts and performance. Size and form factor. Then you need to look at product age. Apple has an extremely slow update cycle. if you buy at the end of the cycle, yes, you can find other similar products for the same or cheaper. But in the first couple months, Apple right now leads the pact. The 2011 Air's are an example. Find a competing product at same price or less that matches the specs. you can't. Apples channel policy and parternships with Intel means they're typically first out the gate right now with newest tech. Which means at the beginning of the product lifecycle, Apple typically is a tremendous bang for your buck. The option usually is wait a few months for the competitors to catch up.

But in the case where, yes, other companies have hundreds of products to match all sorts of needs and uses. Appe doesn't. Apple has a pretty small offering. So yes, you can compare a $500 notebook to a $1,000 Apple, if that 500 notebook does everything you need it to, than perhaps it's the better buy for you. However if their are features of the Apple that you want / need, then it's probably a good deal to pay the extra

kulimer
Sep 23, 2011, 09:49 AM
So, here's what I saw and why I compared, I will start with what I bought 13"(128GB) vs what I saw Thinkpad X200 12.5". Feel free to add. I will expect the same you think you got yourself a better deal.

Thinkpad X200
PRICETAG: $1049
12.5" HD LED Backlit Display
2.7GHz Intel Core i7-2620M Processor (4MB L3, 1333MHz FSB)
4 GB DDR3 (1333MHz (1 DIMM))
320 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
Intel® HD Graphics 3000
Battery 29+ (6 cell)
2.9 lbs
1 Year Depot Warranty

MacBook Air 13"
PRICETAG: $1299
13" display
1.7GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor
4GB memory
128GB flash storage
Intel HD Graphics 3000
Wireless web, Up to 5 hours Standby time, Up to 30 days
2.96lbs
1 year warranty, 90 day free phone support

I have thrown in some specs, here are the details from official website
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air/select?mco=MjMzOTQxMjE

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=20E990072AB74EA5EA87218BF129CC11&action=init[COLOR="#808080"]

scarred
Sep 23, 2011, 09:50 AM
So, here's why I started the thread, and I will compare what I bought 13"(128GB) vs what I saw Thinkpad X200 12.5".

Thinkpad X200
PRICETAG: $899
12.5" HD LED Backlit Display
2.7GHz, 4MB L3, 1333MHz FSB Intel Core i7-2620M Processor
4 GB DDR3 - 1333MHz (1 DIMM)
320 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
Intel® HD Graphics 3000
Battery 29+ (6 cell)
2.9 lbs
1 Year Depot Warranty

MacBook Air 13"
PRICETAG: $1499
13" display
1.7GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor
4GB memory
128GB flash storage
Intel HD Graphics 3000
2.96lbs
1 year warranty, 90 day free phone support

I have thrown in some specs, here are the details from official website
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air/select?mco=MjMzOTQxMjE

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=20E990072AB74EA5EA87218BF129CC11&action=init

First, you cut and pasted wrong. The 899 is a core i3. Your core i7 is 1049 starting. Add an SSD, and the price is 1329.

I'm totally fine with comparing, but ffs man... at least try to be fair. I think I paid just under 1400 for my Macbook Air with taxes and expedited shipping. The prices are basically the same. /thread.

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 09:54 AM
So, here's why I started the thread, and I will compare what I bought 13"(128GB) vs what I saw Thinkpad X200 12.5".

Thinkpad X200
PRICETAG: $899
12.5" HD LED Backlit Display
2.7GHz Intel Core i7-2620M Processor (4MB L3, 1333MHz FSB)
4 GB DDR3 (1333MHz (1 DIMM))
320 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
Intel® HD Graphics 3000
Battery 29+ (6 cell)
2.9 lbs
1 Year Depot Warranty

MacBook Air 13"
PRICETAG: $1499
13" display
1.7GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor
4GB memory
128GB flash storage
Intel HD Graphics 3000
2.96lbs
1 year warranty, 90 day free phone support

I have thrown in some specs, here are the details from official website
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air/select?mco=MjMzOTQxMjE

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=20E990072AB74EA5EA87218BF129CC11&action=init

First of all, the MacBook Air is $1299, not $1499. Second, the $899 Lenovo doesn't have the i7. It has the i3. The i7 starts at $1049 and lacks Bluetooth and 720p camera at that price level (though it does have USB 3.0). Third, and most importantly, it has a HDD. Replacing it with a 128GB SSD adds $280. With BT, camera, and SSD, that Lenovo jumps up to $1379. Granted, it has a faster processor and USB 3.0, but the $1299 MacBook Air doesn't look so overpriced anymore. The 13" Air also has a significantly higher resolution display (1440x900).

Maybe if you would stop comparing apples to oranges, and stop posting incorrect information people would take you more seriously. Granted, it does appear Lenovo applied some serious price drops to the X220 line lately, but the difference isn't anywhere near as big as you claim.

deeddawg
Sep 23, 2011, 09:58 AM
First, you cut and pasted wrong. The 899 is a core i3. Your core i7 is 1049 starting. Add an SSD, and the price is 1329.

I'm totally fine with comparing, but ffs man... at least try to be fair.

Also, display on the Lenovo is 1366x768 vs 1440x900 on the Macbook Air.

kulimer
Sep 23, 2011, 09:59 AM
The 899 is a core i3. Your core i7 is 1049 starting. Add an SSD, and the price is 1329.

typo, corrected!

buddybd
Sep 23, 2011, 10:01 AM
First, you cut and pasted wrong. Add an SSD, and the price is 1329.



This doesn't matter to people who do these type of comparisons. They pair a laptop with an HDD and compare it with a Macbook Air with an SSD. And then bitch about how big a loss the MBA is.

And of course, the portability is never ever to be considered.

LordVic
Sep 23, 2011, 10:01 AM
I think you're having reading comprehension issues with the lenovo site my friend.

the 899 laptop is an i3

they do currently have a discount code on the I7 that you're showing bringing the price to $1,049.00

is that a good price? absolutely. however here are the core differences that could be attributed to the extra you spend on the Apple.

1: the Apple display is not 1366x768. it is 1440 by 900. A much higher pixel count and arguably a better quality display. Lenovo doesn't have an upgrade option to this display, so it's unknown how much more the lenovo would cost with it.

2: The apple trackpad is a glass, entire thing clickable, multi touch interface. The lenovo's is listed as a stanard 2 button with "scrolling". there is no upgrade to this from lenovo. This should be factored into the price.

3: Price listed without Camera. camera comes external, and is an aditional $30

4: Comparing Solid state drives to platter drives. Platter hard drives are cheap. you can pick up 500gb for 60 bucks. SSD's are not cheap. They are a premium upgrade. The Apple listed comes with 128gb. The 128gb flash upgrade for the lenovo is $280

5: Bluetooth is not standard and is a $20 upgrade

So i've just built it as close to the same spec's as possible. the Lenovo is now 1,359.00. Yes it's cheaper. But then you can start factoring other things into the cost.
Such As:
Thunderbolt Expansion
Light Aluminum unibody construction
higher risidual value
Build quality and durability
Form Factor - 13" sized, .6" thick notebook that weighs < 3lbs. The Lenovo si listed at 2.90+ lbs (based on options) and is significantly thicker.


So you need to ask yourself. Do you need / want these extras? If yes, then you spent your money well on the Air.

If honestly, you don't need / care / want these, or you don't need the upgrades to the lenovo to make it on par with the Apple, Then you probably overspent and bought something you didn't need.

But spouting crap about "cheaper and better" without proper research is wrong.

kulimer
Sep 23, 2011, 10:03 AM
Also, display on the Lenovo is 1366x768 vs 1440x900 on the Macbook Air.

it's a smaller screen.

LordVic
Sep 23, 2011, 10:06 AM
it's a smaller screen.

so's the 11" model of the AIR and it has the same resolution, and is still cheaper

you're not making logical comparisons here.

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 10:24 AM
so's the 11" model of the AIR and it has the same resolution, and is still cheaper

you're not making logical comparisons here.

Exactly. For $1349, I can get the 11" MacBook Air with an i7, 128GB SSD, BT 4.0, and save $30 against the i7-equipped Lenovo. Granted, the Lenovo has a faster processor (roughly 20% faster when you factor in the turbo boost capabilities of both), but the MacBook Air weighs 1/2 lb less.

The Lenovo, with the price drop, is a serious option, but it still doesn't show that the MacBook Air is waste of money. Rather, it shows that comparable products tend to be priced fairly comparably.

----------

For the record, let me say that I'd be thrilled if my employer decided to replace our HP elitebooks (5-6 lbs) with the Lenovo X220-equipped i7s (or even i5 or i3 models) with the SSD. They are nice PCs. But for myself I'll stick with my 11" Air.

deeddawg
Sep 23, 2011, 11:00 AM
Also, display on the Lenovo is 1366x768 vs 1440x900 on the Macbook Air.it's a smaller screen.

Yep, so more value to the Macbook Air 13" for a larger screen both physically and pixel real estate.

Plus the X220 seems chunky, over twice as thick; 19-34.6mm (http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/content/pdf/notebooks/ThinkPad/x-series/ThinkPad%20x220.pdf) vs 3-17mm (http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html).

X220 with i5-2520, bluetooth, 128GB SSD prices at $1299 on Lenovo.com -- that's a far cry from $899.

I'm a big fan of Lenovo T and X series; they're good machines. But if you're going to do price comparisons you need to spec the systems equivalently including hard drive vs solid-state drive. Performance of an HDD equipped laptop is a lot different from an SSD equipped laptop and I dare say for most users the HDD/SDD difference will far outweigh CPU difference in typical usage.

Goratrix
Sep 23, 2011, 11:10 AM
The X220 is a completely different class, though. It's totally incomparable to the Air. It has a full processor (not ULV), all ports, docking station, IPS screen, slice battery giving it 20 hours batter life, etc, etc...

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 11:14 AM
The X220 is a completely different class, though. It's totally incomparable to the Air. It has a full processor (not ULV), all ports, docking station, IPS screen, slice battery giving it 20 hours batter life, etc, etc...

I've acknowledged the processor difference. Given the turbo boost capabilities of the ULV vs LV processors, I'd guess that the 2.7GHz processor is about 20-25% faster.

The IPS screen is optional. The slice battery and docking station are also optional extras. Plus the X220 lacks Thunderbolt.

deeddawg
Sep 23, 2011, 11:23 AM
The X220 is a completely different class, though. It's totally incomparable to the Air. It has a full processor (not ULV), all ports, docking station, IPS screen, slice battery giving it 20 hours batter life, etc, etc...

Agreed -- it is a wholly different machine aimed at a different market. Priced with i7, IPS display, bluetooth, 128GB SSD, and the slice battery it's about $1600.

ThinkPad Battery 19+ (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=38&Code=0A36280) adds a lot of runtime and 1.66lb. Didn't see a spec as to how much it adds to the 35.4mm thickness, but Engadget claims (http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/18/lenovo-thinkpad-x220-review/) it's another 1.16 inches. That would make the total thickness a hair over 2.5" compared to 0.67 inches for the Macbook Air. That's a stack of 3.75 MBA's... :D :eek:

Xgm541
Sep 23, 2011, 11:53 AM
The iPhone is NOT reasonably priced compared to some Android phones... at best it's on par price wise but I'm sure I can find a similarly spec'd Android device for cheaper than the equivalent iPhone (3Gs,4, etc)

You also fall in the "owning more than one Apple device" crowd.

Specs are not everything my friend. The android UI is laggy even on the newest chipsets. Also a comparably spec'd & priced android is made out of plastic.

also It’s generally accepted that, on the aggregate, Android device sales will far outpace iOS sales year after year. However, there’s a dirty little secret about Android devices that most manufacturers are facing: the return rate on some Android devices is between 30 and 40 percent, in comparison to the iPhone 4′s 1.7% return rate as of Antennagate in 2010.


source. (http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/26/androids-dirty-secret-shipping-numbers-are-strong-but-returns-are-30-40/)

kulimer
Sep 23, 2011, 11:58 AM
so's the 11" model of the AIR and it has the same resolution, and is still cheaper

you're not making logical comparisons here.

Yes, there is difference, but I don't think it is that big. Most people would not put resolution as their priority.

The things that matter to most people are how fast, how much memory, and weight, 11" Air does have SSD but it's only 68GB(or 128GB), while Lenovo has 320GB. I'd definitely go with the 320GB, so I can at least store some music and movies, yes I know it is faster, but its size has no future value.

2 years ago, 100GB for a laptop was considered "big", now it's considered below average.

Take iphone for example, when it came out in 2007, you had 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB. Now, the minimum iphone 4 is 16GB.

By that Apple logic, the 11" Air you have will be out of production. So, the 11" Air is way below in competition with the Thinkpad in terms of price and future value.

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 12:53 PM
The things that matter to most people are how fast, how much memory, and weight, 11" Air does have SSD but it's only 68GB(or 128GB), while Lenovo has 320GB. I'd definitely go with the 320GB, so I can at least store some music and movies, yes I know it is faster, but its size has no future value.


You seem to be missing the point altogether. No one buys an SSD for low-cost storage capacity. They are expensive (over $2/GB at current prices). However, they provide a significant speed and power advantage. Would you say Lenovo is ripping off customers of the X220 who opt to pay $280 extra to get the 128GB SSD vs. the standard 320GB HDD? I wouldn't.

128GB is more than enough to store operating systems and applications, and will still be the case in the future. If you really want more, there is a 256GB SSD option on the Air that isn't available on the Lenovo (though third party options are available). However, to say it has no future value is disingenuous. Sure, SSD prices may go down in the future (but they have held steady at roughly $2/GB for over a year now), but they will still command a price premium over HDDs. Plus, with cloud services, we may be storing a lot less on personal hard drives in the future.

If onboard storage is more important to you than any other feature, than go ahead and get the Lenovo without the SSD. However, tell the rest of us with SSDs that we are wasting our money.

Pipper99
Sep 23, 2011, 01:09 PM
Yes, there is difference, but I don't think it is that big. Most people would not put resolution as their priority.

The things that matter to most people are how fast, how much memory, and weight, 11" Air does have SSD but it's only 68GB(or 128GB), while Lenovo has 320GB. I'd definitely go with the 320GB, so I can at least store some music and movies, yes I know it is faster, but its size has no future value.

So, based on your needs mentioned here, you went ahead and bought an MBA with storage that's unworkable for you?

LordVic
Sep 23, 2011, 01:14 PM
So, by your logic. I didnt need and wasted money on a MBA, cause a simple Netbook would have sufficed.

you know, cause that netbook has a 1.6ghz CPU too (atom)
a screen as well (despite terrible resolution that nobody cares about)
has 2gb ram which is the same as the air,
but wins out cause it came with a 250gb hard drive, where the MBA only has a 64gb (the one i have).

its called buying things that have the capability you look for and knowing the differences in products.

again as I said, if you needed something with large storage capacity, and are willing to sacrifice speed and maybe one or two other things, Then the Lenovo is a good deal

but for the rest of us, the MBA fit our needs

themdub
Sep 23, 2011, 01:35 PM
Check out the BetterSnapTool app on the mac app store for windows snap feature. It works great and does a whole lot more...I can't live without it now :)

http://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/bettersnaptool/id417375580?mt=12

I'm a recent Mac convert. If there is one thing I have learned it is that trying to compare a Windows-based machine with a Mac on a Mac forum is probably pointless.

While I agree there are aspects of Mac OSX that I enjoy there are features that I miss from Windows (snap window feature for e.g.).

There are people who will always blindly go with Apple (the majority of them are on this site) despite there being a better alternative (read: cost-effective).

To address your point though, no you didn't waste your money UNLESS you are only using your notebook as a desktop replacement computer that never leaves your house and you only email/word process on it. Then yes you did. If you travel and do any moderate computing tasks you will like the Air. I know I do.

kulimer
Sep 23, 2011, 01:45 PM
If onboard storage is more important to you than any other feature, than go ahead and get the Lenovo without the SSD. However, tell the rest of us with SSDs that we are wasting our money.

What I have done is understanding both the Apple and Thinkpad product by comparing them side to side, and finding utility maximization for any amount money spent.

As a wise and rational consumer, I see these concerns are important and valid.

hkim1983
Sep 23, 2011, 01:55 PM
Yes, there is difference, but I don't think it is that big. Most people would not put resolution as their priority.

The things that matter to most people are how fast, how much memory, and weight...

I've been following this thread since its inception since I thought it was quite entertaining, but I've gotten confused over what exactly the OP is trying to accomplish at this point. It's clear that you see more value in the Thinkpad over the Air...so what? Return your air and buy the Thinkpad. What exactly is the problem here? You're fighting a lost cause trying to convince people to bend to your perspective when they themselves are already firmly set in theirs (and vice-versa). Change doesn't occur unless the person in question desires change.

That being said, I disagree with what you're broadly generalizing here. For one thing, you don't speak for "most people", so don't delude yourself into thinking you're some kind of ambassador for the majority. You're arguing this with people who visit and post on the Macrumors forums. I'm sorry for bursting your bubble, but they do not represent "most people" in any shape or form, so bringing that into your argument is pointless and accomplishes nothing but establishing further animosity between the two parties.

I too, do not speak for "most people", but in my personal experiences, the less savvy computer users I have interacted with in my life only care about 4 (now) things in a computer:

-How fast it is, or rather, how consistently "snappy" it is.
-Price.
-Reliability.
-How it looks (this is a new thing I've noticed, wasn't always the case).

Whether or not Apple's line of computers fit their needs is up to them, however, it's clear a lot of people seem to favor the Air for whatever reason.

LordVic
Sep 23, 2011, 01:58 PM
As a wise and rational consumer, I see these concerns are important and valid.

actually, you're not being a wise and rational consumer at all.

A wise and rational consumer realizes there's more to a purchasing decision that purely "I BUYZ WITH HIGHER NUMBERZ" and realizes there's more to a decision than what shows the highest number.

parapup
Sep 23, 2011, 02:00 PM
What I have done is understanding both the Apple and Thinkpad product by comparing them side to side, and finding utility maximization for any amount money spent.

As a wise and rational consumer, I see these concerns are important and valid.

I went with the ThinkPad X220 as it turned out to be a better deal than the Air both from a price and performance perspective. Aesthetics and trackpad are the only parts where it takes a beating from the Air - but it isn't all that bad and I can live with a less flashy, beat up feeling laptop just well.

For $1130 I got -

1) 12.5" IPS Display - vs. 11" TN Panel of the Air

2) 8GB RAM vs. 4GB Max for the Air - Can run Virtual Machines on the Thinkpad, Air slows down quite a bit at 4GB.

3) 320GB 7200RPM HDD vs. 64GB SSD for the Air - I never reboot my x220 and the Lenovo Instant Resume allows me to resume Win7 from sleep in a second, without SSD. It is also not a slouch loading programs. No gripes there.

4) USB 3.0 port - For $79 I got a USB3 1TB drive and I am happy with the speed. Still waiting for the Thunderbolt drives so the Air loses badly here.

5) Regular voltage Core i7 CPU - not undervolted or underclocked - 2.7Ghz with 3.20Ghz with Turbo.

Pipper99
Sep 23, 2011, 02:09 PM
@ the last three guys posted, what I have done is a simple concise compare and contrast, what you have done is ranting in paragraphs. Again, I call that useless verbiage.

Here's an example repeated many times by someone who talks for the sake of talking, you didn't convince me nor any reader about your "wise" decision, which tells me you can't think critically.



What I have done is understanding both the Apple and Thinkpad product by comparing them side to side, and finding utility maximization for any amount money spent.

As a wise and rational consumer, I see these concerns are important and valid.

I don't think that it was particularly wise or rational of you to buy the MBA without having evaluated these concerns prior to purchase. Did you buy the MBA on a whim and then start comparison shopping? Granted, the value for the money of a Mac vs PC is a valid concern for people, and I usually give people the benefit of the doubt on these forums, but, pardon my useless verbiage and uncritical thinking, I don't believe that you purchased a Macbook Air. You're just trying to convince the rest of us that we made a foolish choice.

Goratrix
Sep 23, 2011, 02:25 PM
You seem to be missing the point altogether. No one buys an SSD for low-cost storage capacity. They are expensive (over $2/GB at current prices). However, they provide a significant speed and power advantage.

Yes, but there's something that needs to be considered: AFAIK Apple has always been using 5400rpm drives in their notebooks. So for Apple users, the speed jump from those to an SSD is very noticeable. But most of us (who have been using enterprise-grade windows notebooks for the past x years) are used to 7200rpm drives, and with those, the advantage of SSD becomes much smaller. Of course there is an improvement, but not nearly as big as Apple users perceive it.

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 02:41 PM
Yes, but there's something that needs to be considered: AFAIK Apple has always been using 5400rpm drives in their notebooks. So for Apple users, the speed jump from those to an SSD is very noticeable. But most of us (who have been using enterprise-grade windows notebooks for the past x years) are used to 7200rpm drives, and with those, the advantage of SSD becomes much smaller. Of course there is an improvement, but not nearly as big as Apple users perceive it.

I have used 7200RPM drives. There is no comparison between them and an SSD.There's a reason Lenovo offers a $280 upgrade option.[COLOR="#808080"]

----------


What I have done is understanding both the Apple and Thinkpad product by comparing them side to side, and finding utility maximization for any amount money spent.
As a wise and rational consumer, I see these concerns are important and valid.

They certainly are. If you find maximum utility in having the most available storage space at a particular price point, then the Lenovo with the HDD wins out over the Lenovo with the SSD or the MacBook Air. However, others may find maximum utility in having the fastest available storage medium. Someone with 60GB of applications and documents gets no additional utility in having 320GB over 128GB and may well conclude that getting the pricier SSD over the slower HDD maximizes utility.

If your point is that you think Apple should offer a thicker MacBook product that has the weight of the Air but uses a slower HDD, then you may have a case. But there certainly appears to be quite a market for the Air, and Lenovo certainly thinks there is a market for the SSD version.

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 03:14 PM
3) 250GB 7200RPM HDD vs. 64GB SSD for the Air - I never reboot my x220 and the Lenovo Instant Resume allows me to resume Win7 from sleep in a second, without SSD. It is also not a slouch loading programs. No gripes there.


You lack the deep sleep mode of the Air or the upcoming Ultrabooks, though. Macs have been able to wake up in a second for years, but the Air was the first to add the deep sleep to preserve battery. It is implemented a lot better than Hibernate on Windows (or whatever Windows 7 calls it now). Even that would benefit from the SSD on the Lenovo, though.

A 256GB SSD is an option on the Air, however. It is not an option for some reason on the Lenovo, though they do offer a 128GB option for $280. Once you have an SSD, you don't go back. If it were up to me, I'd purchase an SSD even for my standard-issue Windows work PC. That would do a lot more for me than a CPU upgrade. It isn't just opening applications. It's everything disk intensive. 7200rpm helps, but flash memory is just faster, no matter what.

zachlegomaniac
Sep 23, 2011, 03:52 PM
I couldn't deal with running Windows. Period.

scarred
Sep 23, 2011, 05:30 PM
What frustrates me the most with this entire thread is the stupid subject line. How quickly $600 turned into > $1300 is ridiculous. This is why most of us laugh at threads like this... because most of us realize that many companies put their cheapest crap forward at a low price. When you actually look at what you get and pay for what you want, the price is more then double.

Mr. Thread Starter, you've been had by Lenovo.

P0stalTek
Sep 23, 2011, 05:49 PM
Blah blah blah.

But, for rayjay86, check out bettertouchtool, it'll let you do the windows snap thing, and about a million other things too, and the price can't be beat

Actually, the one that gives the snap thing is BetterSnapTool, BetterTouchTool is from the same makers and it is awesome too, but for extra gestures and such.

3dflyboy1
Sep 23, 2011, 06:55 PM
What frustrates me the most with this entire thread is the stupid subject line. How quickly $600 turned into > $1300 is ridiculous. This is why most of us laugh at threads like this... because most of us realize that many companies put their cheapest crap forward at a low price. When you actually look at what you get and pay for what you want, the price is more then double.

Mr. Thread Starter, you've been had by Lenovo.

...And apple doesn't charge a hefty premium for extra features? ;) Apple starts the MBA at $1000, but most users will cough up an extra $200-600 for better RAM/SSD.

A lot of people (me! :D) would rather buy a better-value Lenovo (x220) and get a lot more computer for their money. The only downside is the slightly bulkier design, which I think is very tolerable.

Poindexter333
Sep 23, 2011, 07:04 PM
As this thread has clearly gone off the reservation, why can't we discuss the simple fact- plainly apparent to those visiting a Macintosh website- that here are some things that are way more important than saving a few dollars, or having the fastest processor on earth... for that week, or having the biggest drive or biggest screen.

Personally, I don't care about a few hundred dollars or a few fractions of a Ghz speed difference, or an extra couple of dozen gigs of storage. My computing experience means more to me than any of these factors- and I wouldn't think I was so far afield to imagine that this means the same thing for many of you. For the vast majority of users- other than NASA perhaps- none of these specs are deal-breakers. Anything I might see as "giving up to the PC's" are more than compensated by the Apple/Macintosh experience- which is the best in the world for a consumer product.

I love the Mac- plain and simple. After being forced to use Windows for too many years, and paying for the monstrous waste in time and effort to keep it up and running and compatible, as soon as it became up to me, my company went all Mac and we have never looked back. Productivity has SOARED, as has uptime, and the savings from the lack of a dedicated tech support department has paid for any premium many times over. Bottom line. At investment is MUCH more than simply the initial cost.

I'll take a unibody laptop any day of the week over some plastic piece of junk- regardless if these so-called better features only exist in a PC. We used to have to pay a huge premium for owning a Mac- now the gap has closed- but even if it had not I would still gladly pay more- as what is a few hundred dollars versus the mind-numbing agony of dealing with legacy Windows systems and mostly inferior design and quality? IMHO of course. Perhaps W7 has changed all this but having been burned way too many times, I'm more than done. Thus endeth the sermon to the choir. :D

Nothing would make me go back to Windows ever again. Period.

nebulos
Sep 23, 2011, 07:04 PM
Apple starts the MBA at $1000, but most users will cough up an extra $200-600 for better RAM/SSD.

on the MBA, RAM is either maxed or a $100 upgrade and the SSD upgrade is $300. so, actually, in your warped universe, you are very close, but off by a sign:

$100 + $300 = $400

while, $200-$600 = -$400

this thread is awrsumg.

3dflyboy1
Sep 23, 2011, 07:10 PM
on the MBA, RAM is either maxed or a $100 upgrade and the SSD upgrade is $300. so, actually, in your warped universe, you are very close, but off by a sign:

$100 + $300 = $400

while, $200-$600 = -$400

this thread is awrsumg.

I know I wasn't completely accurate... but I was referring to the uncustomized models.

haha. my "warped universe." spot on. :D Sometimes I think everyone is in their own little universe, especially when I see heated arguments on forums. ;)

scarred
Sep 23, 2011, 07:21 PM
...And apple doesn't charge a hefty premium for extra features? ;) Apple starts the MBA at $1000, but most users will cough up an extra $200-600 for better RAM/SSD.

A lot of people (me! :D) would rather buy a better-value Lenovo (x220) and get a lot more computer for their money. The only downside is the slightly bulkier design, which I think is very tolerable.

I never said apple doesn't do the same. They open their Macbook Air line at $999, but most will spend in the 1300 range.

So, let me do what Thread Starter did, but in reverse:

Macbook Air is only $900! Look at that stupid lenovo costing $1300. Almost 400 bucks more! What a waste! How can you guys be so stupid to buy that thing? You lenovo fanboys always paying more. Wouldn't you want a sleek and powerful Macbook Air for 400 bucks less then a crappy plastic lenovo?

nebulos
Sep 23, 2011, 07:26 PM
I know I wasn't completely accurate... but I was referring to the uncustomized models.

haha. my "warped universe." spot on. :D Sometimes I think everyone is in their own little universe, especially when I see heated arguments on forums. ;)

indeed, anyone writing here, or any other forum, is in their own warped universe. :)

because i am sick and warped too, i have to add that you can't even spend on $400 on RAM/SSD through Apple; the only model with upgradable RAM is the base 11, which is not SSD upgradeable.

warped power!

Abazigal
Sep 23, 2011, 07:36 PM
What I have done is understanding both the Apple and Thinkpad product by comparing them side to side, and finding utility maximization for any amount money spent.

As a wise and rational consumer, I see these concerns are important and valid.

I think what you have done is compared at each product only very superficially, then went on to make your own decision.

It is like wondering why anyone would ever eat at a restaurant when they could get a similar meal for cheaper elsewhere. I realise it is not the most apt of analogies, but I used to wonder the same thing about apple too. For the price of an Imac, I could easily get 2 PCs, each with comparable specs.

But when I switched over (after weeks of research and consultation with friends), I saw why. I must say there is a big difference between hearing about the pros from friends, and experiencing it for yourself.

Bottom line - it is really all about the user experience. It's just fast. I don't have to bother about maintaining it, or slowing down my desktop with a veritable array of maintenance programs. Admitably, there are some features I wished they had ported over from windows, but overall, I am not regretting my decision one bit. :)

3dflyboy1
Sep 23, 2011, 07:48 PM
I never said apple doesn't do the same. They open their Macbook Air line at $999, but most will spend in the 1300 range.

So, let me do what Thread Starter did, but in reverse:

Macbook Air is only $900! Look at that stupid lenovo costing $1300. Almost 400 bucks more! What a waste! How can you guys be so stupid to buy that thing? You lenovo fanboys always paying more. Wouldn't you want a sleek and powerful Macbook Air for 400 bucks less then a crappy plastic lenovo?

um. The reverse is irrelevant...because it's reverse. ;)

2IS
Sep 23, 2011, 07:56 PM
My computing experience means more to me than any of these factors-[/B]

Ahh yes, the "experience" the intangible term that Apple marketing came up with when their competition one ups them in every category that actually matters. That in itself is very cleaver, but that they can also convince people that things that matter... Don't? Well that's just sheer genius on their part.

I've been a hybrid user for the past year, prior to that I was a Windows only user. I had/have a few friends that used Mac's and they would talk it up like it was the greatest thing ever, so whenever I got a chance to use their machines, I'd get a little excited and think "ok, lets see what all the hype is about" and other than the admittedly gorgeous IPS display, I came away being thoroughly unimpressed. Don't get me wrong, there was nothing wrong or bad about it, it just wasn't anything special by any stretch.

ok, so maybe I need to spend more time with OSX to fully appreciate it? Fair enough, a year ago I wanted a new laptop and the MBA got my attention. Not only did I want a Mac to "experience" and familiarize myself with OSX, but the "ultra book" concept intrigued me as well and the MBA was really the only one of it's kind a year ago.

So do I appreciate the "experience" more a year later? A little bit, for one main reason, and that's the touch pad. It's hardly the orgasmic experience some people make it out to be.

Another thing I've observed about Mac converts that claim "it's so much better" and that's that most of them went from a 5 year old PC that they paid $500 for brand new to a brand new Mac that cost them $1500-$2000. Well... Yeah, I would certainly hope it's a lot better than a 5 year old box at 1/4 the price.

scarred
Sep 23, 2011, 08:02 PM
um. The reverse is irrelevant...because it's reverse. ;)

Illustrates just how silly this thread is.

You can't take the low end price of the competitor, and then take the high end specs of the machine, and compare it to a random Apple model and expect people to take you seriously.

ZBoater
Sep 23, 2011, 08:03 PM
Did I just waste my money buying a Mac Air?

No. You made the best possible purchase decision you possibly could.

There. Having been validated by a complete stranger, go enjoy your MBA. :apple:

kulimer
Sep 23, 2011, 08:09 PM
I went with the ThinkPad X220 as it turned out to be a better deal than the Air both from a price and performance perspective. Aesthetics and trackpad are the only parts where it takes a beating from the Air - but it isn't all that bad and I can live with a less flashy, beat up feeling laptop just well.

For $1130 I got -

1) 12.5" IPS Display - vs. 11" TN Panel of the Air

2) 8GB RAM vs. 4GB Max for the Air - Can run Virtual Machines on the Thinkpad, Air slows down quite a bit at 4GB.

3) 250GB 7200RPM HDD vs. 64GB SSD for the Air - I never reboot my x220 and the Lenovo Instant Resume allows me to resume Win7 from sleep in a second, without SSD. It is also not a slouch loading programs. No gripes there.

4) USB 3.0 port - For $79 I got a USB3 1TB drive and I am happy with the speed. Still waiting for the Thunderbolt drives so the Air loses badly here.

5) Regular voltage Core i7 CPU - not undervolted or underclocked - 2.7Ghz with 3.20Ghz with Turbo.

This is a really convincing comparison. To any lay person arrives in this forum, he/she will be able to see what's good or bad, clearly Thinkpad wins in every aspect.

Have you addressed any of these issues? nope.

In above list, the only tipping point I see might be the 250HDD vs 68GB SSD, it's pushing it. 68GB is just way too small to save anything, you'd be busy deleting old files in order to save again. That feeling sucks. You will be forced to buy an external hard drive.

If you have something to say, bring it on baby! :p
If it is so good, tell everyone and convince it with your point and tell why you made a good decision! I mean did you?:eek:

(you are going to tell me it's good user experience, I love it, it's so light, again and again.)

Poindexter333
Sep 23, 2011, 08:13 PM
Ahh yes, the "experience" the intangible term that Apple marketing came up with when their competition one ups them in every category that actually matters. That in itself is very cleaver, but that they can also convince people that things that matter... Don't? Well that's just sheer genius on their part.

I've been a hybrid user for the past year, prior to that I was a Windows only user. I had/have a few friends that used Mac's and they would talk it up like it was the greatest thing ever, so whenever I got a chance to use their machines, I'd get a little excited and think "ok, lets see what all the hype is about" and other than the admittedly gorgeous IPS display, I came away being thoroughly unimpressed. Don't get me wrong, there was nothing wrong or bad about it, it just wasn't anything special by any stretch.

ok, so maybe I need to spend more time with OSX to fully appreciate it? Fair enough, a year ago I wanted a new laptop and the MBA got my attention. Not only did I want a Mac to "experience" and familiarize myself with OSX, but the "ultra book" concept intrigued me as well and the MBA was really the only one of it's kind a year ago.

So do I appreciate the "experience" more a year later? A little bit, for one main reason, and that's the touch pad. It's hardly the orgasmic experience some people make it out to be.

Another thing I've observed about Mac converts that claim "it's so much better" and that's that most of them went from a 5 year old PC that they paid $500 for brand new to a brand new Mac that cost them $1500-$2000. Well... Yeah, I would certainly hope it's a lot better than a 5 year old box at 1/4 the price.
I first started in computing in 1973 on mainframes, and was one of the first adopters in both Apple and PC domains. I owned the first 8088's, the first Apple IIe's, and the first Macintosh. I have been the go-to person every group of friends seeks out to get their opinion, as I do my homework quite thoroughly.

After 35 years of dual-platform computing experience, I hardly think I am susceptible to hype or marketing bull or a reality distortion field. I am not sold simply on clever, but what actually happens when the rubber meets the road. Performance trumps all- even value in most cases. I seek out facts not emotions first. ANd this is decided over decades of intense investigation and experience, not a mere year of twiddling about.

2IS
Sep 23, 2011, 08:19 PM
since Air has it's hard driver soldered onboard.


The SSD in the Air is modular and can be upgraded. The memory is whats soldered on and cannot be upgraded.

Poindexter333
Sep 23, 2011, 08:25 PM
The SSD in the Air is modular and can be upgraded. The memory is whats soldered on and cannot be upgraded.

So much for your reading comprehension. I actively research everything and therefore can value and accept or reject things based on decades of hands-on experience, that are less important to me and my needs- like your opinion.

deeddawg
Sep 23, 2011, 09:04 PM
This is a really convincing comparison. To any lay person arrives in this forum, he/she will be able to see what's good or bad, clearly Thinkpad wins in every aspect.

Meh. Not really, it only addresses a subset of the differences and glosses over key points. Cherry-picking does not a convincing comparison make.

True, IPS is nicer (also a $50 upgrade), but arguably the x220 is more comparable with the 13.3” MacBook Air than the 11" due to size and weight. So 13.3" 1440x900 display vs 1366x768 12.5. That extra 132 vertical pixels makes a difference. Full power CPU is a double edged sword in terms of using more battery and having more heat to dissipate. parapup, and I mean no disrespect, sounds like me before I started using SSDs. Even 7200RPM HDDs aren't anywhere near the same class as SSDs. Anyone saying they're comparable is probably justifying why they've not spent the money to upgrade to an SSD. :) I'll give you USB3, TB needs to get more mainstream stuff available.

On the other hand the X220 is also a bunch heavier than the 11" MBA, about equivalent with the 13", and over twice as thick as either of them. Lenovo does have the track point, which is nice, but their trackpads don't come close to Apple's.

As mentioned before, they're somewhat different systems aimed at different user communities. Best choice depends on personal preference in terms of what strengths/weaknesses on each system best match up to the individual's particular needs, values, and priorities. Dont get me wrong, I like ThinkPads and have owned several of them over the years. The x220 seems to be a fine machine. It does have strengths over the MacBook Air line, but it also has its weaknesses where the Airs are superior. Any potential buyer, if he's smart, will do his research before purchase to figure out which best fits his needs.

Abazigal
Sep 23, 2011, 09:12 PM
A better "computing experience" is not a fact, its an opinion. Facts are the things you're ignoring. Like actual specs, you know, the stuff that doesn't matter? So no, you do the exact opposite of what you claimed. You seek emotions, not facts. Know the difference.

The thing is, it is an undeniable fact that I am thoroughly enjoying my imac compared to my previous windows PC or the laptop my school issues me for work-related purposes.

It is not an opinion that I am saving time and hassle by not having to defrag my HD or have AVG running in the background every single moment and slowing down my comp. It's a fact.

Intangible doesn't mean inexistent or inconsequential.

You are right in that specs matter, but I hardly think they should be the sole determining factor in deciding which one to buy, because how much ram or space a laptop has doesn't always tell the full story. For instance, the ipad2 is able to do similar tasks compared to rival tablets even though the former is listed as having inferior specs, simply because its programs are better optimised to take full advantage of the OS. This is a feature, not a bug.

*Exhales*
The thing is, I don't even know why I am responding to this even. Just let him buy his lenovo laptop, I continue buying my own apple products, we are all happy consumers, right? :o

sloan47
Sep 23, 2011, 10:07 PM
I never understood the arguments between Mac and PC. You ultimately get what you pay for. If I bypass the manufacturers and build my own PC, I can build an amazing PC that will beat any Mac hands down. It will also be expensive. Differences between OS X and Windows are mostly highly subjective anymore.

Depending on your task you just need to pick the right tool for the job.

CP123
Sep 23, 2011, 10:15 PM
If you think you wasted your money, then guess what? You wasted your money. Value is in the mind of the buyer. Why don't you just return the Air and get the Lenovo. I'm beginning to wonder why you even started this thread. You see so many of these conversations:

I just bought macbook xxx, and saw xxx pc. I wonder if I did the right thing. Look at all the great specs of xxx pc.

Nobody really cares dude. Just get what you want and be happy.

3dflyboy1
Sep 23, 2011, 10:15 PM
Illustrates just how silly this thread is.

You can't take the low end price of the competitor, and then take the high end specs of the machine, and compare it to a random Apple model and expect people to take you seriously.

haha. :D He took a specific lenovo model and compared it to a specific apple product. ;)

For some people, PC > :apple: :rolleyes:

2IS
Sep 23, 2011, 10:26 PM
The thing is, it is an undeniable fact that I am thoroughly enjoying my imac compared to my previous windows PC or the laptop my school issues me for work-related purposes.

It is not an opinion that I am saving time and hassle by not having to defrag my HD or have AVG running in the background every single moment and slowing down my comp. It's a fact.

Intangible doesn't mean inexistent or inconsequential.

You are right in that specs matter, but I hardly think they should be the sole determining factor in deciding which one to buy, because how much ram or space a laptop has doesn't always tell the full story. For instance, the ipad2 is able to do similar tasks compared to rival tablets even though the former is listed as having inferior specs, simply because its programs are better optimised to take full advantage of the OS. This is a feature, not a bug.

*Exhales*
The thing is, I don't even know why I am responding to this even. Just let him buy his lenovo laptop, I continue buying my own apple products, we are all happy consumers, right? :o

I almost completely agree. Defrag is automatically scheduled in Win 7, and completely unnecessary if you have a SSD. Anti-Virus software have not made an appreciable difference in PC performance in years. I can guarantee you if you sit in front of two identical, modern day PC's one with AV and one without, you would not be able to tell me one is faster than the other.

scarred
Sep 23, 2011, 10:27 PM
haha. :D He took a specific lenovo model and compared it to a specific apple product. ;)

For some people, PC > :apple: :rolleyes:

And said it costs 600 bucks, when it was really 1300...

KPOM
Sep 23, 2011, 10:47 PM
(@fanboys: You have not yet come forward with a single side to side comparison objectively, because it does not in your favor.)

I can't speak for the "fanboys" but I have taken your side by side comparisons and have equaled the specs as closely as possible (which isn't always possible), and have pointed out that the price gap virtually disappears. When I've pointed out that the 11" MacBook Air with the i7 costs less than the X220 with the same size SSD, you've come back and said the X220 is better because the screen is bigger (but has the same resolution). When it's been pointed out that the 13" Air has a higher resolution you've come back and said it isn't a fair comparison because the X220 screen is smaller.

You are right. It is impossible to come forward with a side by side comparison when you will straw man every one of them where the specs don't match identically. If the MacBook Air is overpriced, we'll find out soon enough when the Ultrabooks (which will have much more closely matched specifications than the X220) come to market en masse. If Acer, ASUS, Toshiba, and yes Lenovo are all able to undercut the MacBook Air with virtually identically equipped your case will be stronger.

What is it you are looking for? Do you want everyone to agree with you that buying the MacBook Air was a mistake and that you should have bought the Lenovo instead? OK, you win. You made a big mistake buying the MacBook Air, and it's a ripoff. You should resent Apple and warn everyone not to buy one. We should all buy HDD-equipped Lenovo X220s (and resist the urge to be fooled into spending the $280 for the upgrade) since it's obvious a 320GB HDD is superior to a 128GB SSD and costs $280 less. Do you feel better now?

maconservative
Sep 23, 2011, 11:13 PM
First... you don't know me so don't judge people you don't know.

I'm a very very frugal consumer... but I go in KNOWING I am spending more on Apple Products... I spent 797 on my MBA a good 200 under retail and besides my iPad I don't spend retail on my Apple products. I buy Apple products because I like the integration and ease of use. I certainly know how to get all my windows products to play nice... but I don't like the futzing that is involved at times.

Let's face it... most people buy Apple products to be trendy... I know iPhone users who don't put music or videos on it or use any apps... what's the point? They just have it because it's trendy. But when you're being trendy it's not about having the best deal. Which is what this OP seems to be discussing... yes the Lenova is easier on the wallet, but it doesn't run OSX, which should be the KEY reason to own a Mac... not cause it's great looking or "a good deal"

For this reason alone I am answering his question:
"Did I just waste my money buying a Mac Air"

In context of a Lenova computer it's a very solid YES because he isn't ready for a Mac; be in financially, technologically or whatever reason.

In your opening statement you say, "First... you don't know me so don't judge people you don't know."

In your third paragraph you say, "Let's face it... most people buy Apple products to be trendy... "

pot...kettle?

3dflyboy1
Sep 23, 2011, 11:59 PM
And said it costs 600 bucks, when it was really 1300...

umm.

this says otherwise...

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=37&Code=E420_BEST

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=37&Code=E220s_BASIC

Brandon0448
Sep 24, 2011, 12:01 AM
This is a really convincing comparison. To any lay person arrives in this forum, he/she will be able to see what's good or bad, clearly Thinkpad wins in every aspect.

(@fanboys: You have not yet come forward with a single side to side comparison objectively, because it does not in your favor.)

Form factor the Thinkpad is garbage compared to the Air.

vitzr
Sep 24, 2011, 12:13 AM
This is the wrong place to ask a question like that. There is a unique demographic of people that use Macs but speak like their authorities on windows for the purpose of trashing them. Usually based on the intent of drawing you in to the Apple Eco system.

I've used both Macs & ThinkPads by Lenovo concurrently for years. They are both excellent systems. They each have their strengths. It's all a matter of personal preference. Don' let the low price of Lenovo fool you, they are high quality machines.

That said what makes Apple unique is their superior marketing that convinces people they must be superior due to the high price. When in fact that's one of the miracles is Apples ability to command high prices and huge profit margins. Working with 30% or higher margins than Lenovo & others at 7%.

Identically configured models reveal Apples handsome markup. It's all in what you feel comfortable with.

tecknik1
Sep 24, 2011, 12:15 AM
I had the Lenovo E420 before switching to the 2011 13 MacAir base unit and the Lenovo is not even close for a comparison.

kulimer
Sep 24, 2011, 12:39 AM
I had the Lenovo E420 before switching to the 2011 13 MacAir base unit and the Lenovo is not even close for a comparison.

How and what did you compare?

MrXiro
Sep 24, 2011, 12:51 AM
In your opening statement you say, "First... you don't know me so don't judge people you don't know."

In your third paragraph you say, "Let's face it... most people buy Apple products to be trendy... "

pot...kettle?

How does generalizing a majority of people fall in the same category as judging an individual? Not pot nor kettle... Get a little less defensive about your device man...

For the original poster the MBA is a bad choice for him. Plain and simple... He believes this and I believe this... Its just not the right device for him plain and simple and therefore a terrible deal... All you defensive twits here immediately want to jump down the guy's throat because a MBA is best for YOU not him.

He won't be happy with the MBA because the specs are not what he wants or needs... Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Pipper99
Sep 24, 2011, 01:17 AM
This is a really convincing comparison. To any lay person arrives in this forum, he/she will be able to see what's good or bad, clearly Thinkpad wins in every aspect.

If you are the Mac loving/Windows hating Extremist, have you addressed any of these issues? nope.

In above list, the only tipping point I see might be the 250HDD vs 68GB SSD, it's pushing it. 68GB is just way too small to save anything, you'd be busy deleting old files in order to save again. That feeling sucks. You will be forced to buy an external hard drive.

If you have something to say, bring it on baby! :p
If it is so good, tell everyone and convince it with your point and tell why you made a good decision! I mean did you?:eek:

(you are going to tell me it's good user experience, I love it, it's so light, again and again.)

(@fanboys: You have not yet come forward with a single side to side comparison objectively, because it does not in your favor.)

It's so obvious to me now that you never bought the MacBook Air. :p

KPOM
Sep 24, 2011, 07:35 AM
umm.

this says otherwise...

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=37&Code=E420_BEST

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=37&Code=E220s_BASIC

But as we pointed out, once you add Bluetooth and an SSD, the 220 jumps up to about $1020. While it is still less than $1199 for the 11" Air, it is a much closer comparison.

----------



For the original poster the MBA is a bad choice for him. Plain and simple... He believes this and I believe this... Its just not the right device for him plain and simple and therefore a terrible deal... All you defensive twits here immediately want to jump down the guy's throat because a MBA is best for YOU not him.

He won't be happy with the MBA because the specs are not what he wants or needs... Why is that so difficult for you to understand?


It isn't. What he's doing here is claiming that the Air is a waste of money, or that the Lenovo is objectively better, which aren't valid statements. Maybe it's a waste of money for him, but that's a decision only he can make, and only for himself. He doesn't need to justify it to us, or convince us that the Air is inferior. What's the point? It's like me going onto a car forum and claiming that a Honda Accord is a waste of money since I can get a Dodge Caravan for the same price and it holds more passengers and cargo.

deeddawg
Sep 24, 2011, 08:13 AM
Don' let the low price of Lenovo fool you, they are high quality machines.

Yes, though more so in the T and X series "business class" systems. I've been a long time user of T-series.

Lenovo is bad for having a very attractive base configuration -- but once you configure it to a decent middle of the road system the price goes up a bunch.

Identically configured models reveal Apples handsome markup. It's all in what you feel comfortable with.

True if the buyer puts no value on things like size and weight and thickness. Not so much when you factor those features into the comparison. Please provide examples supporting your generalization (though I'll give you the MBP17... :) but be sure to match the thickness and weight specs too. Maybe not important to you, but they are important to many.

Look at the various configurations listed here in this thread; once you match the SSD the MBA configs aren't priced that far away from systems twice as thick.

FreakinEurekan
Sep 24, 2011, 09:22 AM
I did the comparison myself when the new MBAs came out, and ended up with a Lenovo X220. About the same weight, about the same battery life, significantly faster i7 processor, 8GB RAM, and USB 3.0. Drawbacks to the X220 are slightly smaller and lower ppi screen, only 160GB SSD, and thicker case (but not much).

Configured that way, I spent about $250 less than the MBA. If the MBA had 8GB RAM, I'd have paid the difference. The MBA is worth $250 more for the better screen and overall build quality. But 4GB RAM for Lion plus 2-3 Windows VMs just wouldn't cut it, and I do 2-3 simultaneous VMWare machines on my laptop at a time frequently.

As others mentioned, you are comparing Apples to granola. Similarly spec'd Lenovo will be pretty close to the MBA price.

scarred
Sep 24, 2011, 09:28 AM
umm.

this says otherwise...

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=37&Code=E420_BEST


First, that link is $699.

Second, when the comparisons really started, posters linked to the $1300 version of the lenovo to say "see, the computer specs are the same".

3dflyboy1
Sep 24, 2011, 09:34 AM
But as we pointed out, once you add Bluetooth and an SSD, the 220 jumps up to about $1020. While it is still less than $1199 for the 11" Air, it is a much closer comparison.

true...adding the SSD and bluetooth does bump it up to $1015.

But wouldn't most people buy it without the SSD? I wouldn't think everyone is that obsessed with read/write speed. :confused: It's just a matter of waiting a few more seconds for programs to launch and an extra 20 seconds for booting. (MBA boots in ~12, my PC boots in ~35 with a 7200rpm HDD)

-------------------------------------------------------------

First, that link is $699.

Second, when the comparisons really started, posters linked to the $1300 version of the lenovo to say "see, the computer specs are the same".

First, that $699 laptop has an Intel core i5, 4GB RAM, and a 500GB HDD. Disregarding the SSD, that's identical to a mac air. :D

Second, why does it matter if people originally linked to a $1300 lenovo? :confused: THIS $699 lenovo has identical specs. Even when adding an SSD, (which isn't really important to most users) the price goes to about $1020, as KPOM noted. That's still $200 less than the 11" 4/128 mac air. As I said in the first part of this post, lacking an SSD only inconveniences you for about 20 seconds. It's hard to imagine people are that impatient or so obsessed with speed. :eek:

scarred
Sep 24, 2011, 09:38 AM
true...adding the SSD and bluetooth does bump it up to $1015.

But wouldn't most people buy it without the SSD? I wouldn't think everyone is that obsessed with read/write speed. :confused: It's just a matter of waiting a few more seconds for programs to launch and an extra 20 seconds for booting. (MBA boots in ~12, my PC boots in ~35 with a 7200rpm HDD)

Maybe. But that doesn't make the lenovo a better deal. It means you settled for something with less. And that's fine! But don't come here and say the "macbook air is a waste of money". I can get a ford, does that make BMWs a waste of money? No, it just means I can make do with something that isn't as good.

KPOM
Sep 24, 2011, 09:57 AM
true...adding the SSD and bluetooth does bump it up to $1015.

But wouldn't most people buy it without the SSD? I wouldn't think everyone is that obsessed with read/write speed. :confused: It's just a matter of waiting a few more seconds for programs to launch and an extra 20 seconds for booting. (MBA boots in ~12, my PC boots in ~35 with a 7200rpm HDD)

Even when adding an SSD, (which isn't really important to most users) the price goes to about $1020, as KPOM noted. That's still $200 less than the 11" 4/128 mac air. As I said in the first part of this post, lacking an SSD only inconveniences you for about 20 seconds. It's hard to imagine people are that impatient or so obsessed with speed. :eek:

For that matter, how many people will really notice the difference between the LV i7 and the ULV i5 or i7 in the MacBook Air? Remember, even the Core 2 Duo 2nd-gen MacBook Air was popular when it was released less than a year ago. For the same reason people buy a Honda Accord with a V6 over a 4-cylinder engine, people will buy an SSD. That said, a difference of 20 seconds in booting is quite noticeable. Plus, it isn't just booting. Running a disk intensive application is much quicker on an SSD.

You are correct about the price difference of the Lenovo. They recently dropped their prices massively and so have made the X220 a viable alternative. However, a $200 price difference is a lot different from a $700 price difference, and there are still differences in form factor that people may find attractive.

jamesryanbell
Sep 24, 2011, 10:47 AM
If you don't see the value in running OSX, go buy the Lenovo. Almost ALL of the value in Mac is the OS in my opinion, with the styling coming as a bonus.

No OSX? NO CARE. (And i'm absolutely right on for saying that)

Next thread.

Pipper99
Sep 24, 2011, 10:53 AM
true...adding the SSD and bluetooth does bump it up to $1015.

But wouldn't most people buy it without the SSD? I wouldn't think everyone is that obsessed with read/write speed. :confused: It's just a matter of waiting a few more seconds for programs to launch and an extra 20 seconds for booting. (MBA boots in ~12, my PC boots in ~35 with a 7200rpm HDD)

-------------------------------------------------------------
As I said in the first part of this post, lacking an SSD only inconveniences you for about 20 seconds. It's hard to imagine people are that impatient or so obsessed with speed. :eek:

I think that "obsessed" is unfair and meant to characterize us as having a character flaw that drives us to purchase things that we don't really need. For me, the speed of an ssd makes using a computer much more enjoyable and useful. I suppose that "most people" who aren't "obsessed with speed" would just buy a less expensive core 2 duo instead of an i5 or i7. My new employer-provided i5 windows laptop doesn't show any noticeable performance improvement over the 3 year old C2D laptop that it replaced. Most people who aren't obsessed with speed wouldn't buy a new computer until their current model becomes irreparable.

Heck, it's hard to imagine people who are so impatient that they'd waste money on a clothes dryer rather than hang their wet clothes on a line to dry. I mean, all you have to do is time the wash so that the weather's right when you're ready to dry; clothes pins and a line are less expensive; repairs are infrequent and have minimal cost.

Yes, most people who are patient and not obsessive will want a slower, less expensive computer to display their prudence with a nice pat on the back while disdaining the rest of us from their high horses as impatient and obsessive. It's hard to imagine such wisdom, but I have faith that it's out there. :rolleyes:

Poindexter333
Sep 24, 2011, 10:58 AM
I believe that having an SSD drive means much more than sheer speed "gains."

Again, for the vast majority of users and their tasks- email, browser, music, photos (general not pro-level) watching movies, WP, etc, the speed differences are not what drives the purchasing decision. 1.7Ghz versus 1.8Ghz versus 2.1Ghz... and such. I never cared. I'm not Pixar or NASA. And I'm not after drag racing bragging rights.

But what I do care about having an SSD for, is the ability to not crash if I move the laptop around while it's running. Or if it isn't fully asleep when you slip it into your bag. Solid state= no moving parts and the hard drive in my experience is always the weak link in laptops. Since I tend to keep my Macs in service for a longer time than many- TiBook- 7 years, and MBA Rev A- since day one until last week- almost 3 years- every hard drive has eventually crashed or became damaged and hence too risky.

Yes it's nice to have a laptop boot faster, but I don't reboot very often. Yes it's nice to gain some speed here and there, but since my workflow is primarily using Pages, Preview/ Excel/Numbers, Mail, Safari/Firefox/Chrome, iTunes, iPhoto, VLC, Quickbooks Pro and Angry Birds, ahem...do I really need to have the latest screamer of a system? It all changes every 9 months anyway... and I am not caught up in the neurosis of constantly upgrading to gain every fraction of a Ghz, or GB, or bit-pathway width out there- even though I can afford it. I've never felt constrained by the speed of my OS or hardware. Even switching between the Rev A and the latest MBA. Yes it's nice- even welcome- but NOT a deal-breaker. I would still be using the Rev A if the drive didn't die for a third time (other people either dropping or kicking my poor laptop!). I actually thought it had the best screen- to my eyes- for a non-pro machine that I had ever used. :)

I don't make myself crazy about these things- not after dealing with Apple computers since 1977, and their update cycle- but I certainly do get things done as effectively as I need to for all of my business and personal uses. That's usually my primary reason for preferring Mac systems anyway- it's ease of use and utter transparency to my workflow. I just get things done without all the hassle of having to deal with my computer being in the way. Finally, I really don't consider my computers to be interchangeable. I won't get a PC laptop to save $200 or $300.

Yes I love the design and the shape and materials and such, and especially the OS, but that's because it is in constant use, since I'm not always wanting to throw it into a wall because of dll conflicts, or virii, or constantly having to do service pack upgrades. Feh!

gnasher729
Sep 24, 2011, 11:05 AM
I have it, works perfectly, thanks for asking :)

Interesting. So why did you write "you can buy" and not "I bought"?

MacinDoc
Sep 24, 2011, 11:35 AM
Essentially, the OP's question is like saying, "A 500GB HD is $49, did I waste money buying this 128GB SSD?". It all depends on whether the advantages are worth the extra price to you. The price alone doesn't determine which one is better value, because they are not equivalent to one another, even if they do serve similar functions.

2IS
Sep 24, 2011, 12:40 PM
or constantly having to do service pack upgrades. Feh!

Constantly? Windows 7 is 2 years old, has 1 service pack. You made good points through most of your post then end it with complete BS.

Poindexter333
Sep 24, 2011, 01:26 PM
Constantly? Windows 7 is 2 years old, has 1 service pack. You made good points through most of your post then end it with complete BS.

In most of my comments I mentioned that I abandoned Windows a few years ago, that I have had very little exposure to W7, and that I've actually heard it's not that bad. NT wasn't bad either from what I've seen of it. YMMV.

I still have around 20 years worth of a terrible Windows taste in my mouth though, so...

Poindexter333
Sep 24, 2011, 01:51 PM
FYI- my MBA Rev A suffered TWO fatal hard disk crashes from impact while operating. Once it was pulled from a low table onto carpet (18" fall, pulled by the headset, not MagSafe, and not by me.) OEM Sammy 80GB drive was destroyed instantly. Second time the laptop was sitting on the carpet, sitting slightly opened, on the open side "base" formed opposite the hinge side of the wedge by a chair and somebody kicked it, it closed and fell over. Another destroyed drive- this time the OEM Sammy 120GB.

A major reason I went with an MBA with an SSD instead of simply spending $65 for another HDD.

nebulos
Sep 24, 2011, 02:00 PM
what I do care about having an SSD for, is the ability to not crash if I move the laptop around while it's running.

FYI- my MBA Rev A suffered TWO fatal hard disk crashes from impact while operating. Once it was pulled from a low table onto carpet (18" fall, pulled by the headset, not MagSafe, and not by me.) ... Second time ... somebody kicked it, it closed and fell over.

i get it, but these are obviously two very different statements.

3dflyboy1
Sep 24, 2011, 02:08 PM
They aren't so much trolls as people who have deep down regrets with their purchase. They certainly won't admit it here, but it is pretty obvious. Their sheer presents on these forums is proof of that. They seek validation that they really aren't missing much, that they made the right choice. We'd all be much happier if they stopped feeling guilty and went to the lenovo fan forum instead.

I'm perfectly happy and have no regrets about buying a lenovo. :D

It's a matter of taste. ;) SSD vs. HDD, C2D vs. i5, win7 vs. OS X, etc. etc...people just go their own way, then others get irritated when they're curious about the other option(s). :rolleyes:

This is a perfectly legitimate discussion. We just need to express our opinions in a non-derogatory way. ;)

2IS
Sep 24, 2011, 02:10 PM
i get it, but these are obviously two very different statements.

Rev A MBA did not have an SSD.

KPOM
Sep 24, 2011, 02:14 PM
Rev A MBA did not have an SSD.

The $3000 model had a 64GB SSD. My $1800 Rev A did not.

ntrigue
Sep 24, 2011, 02:19 PM
Yes, there is difference, but I don't think it is that big. Most people would not put resolution as their priority.

The things that matter to most people are how fast, how much memory, and weight, 11" Air does have SSD but it's only 68GB(or 128GB), while Lenovo has 320GB. I'd definitely go with the 320GB, so I can at least store some music and movies, yes I know it is faster, but its size has no future value.

2 years ago, 100GB for a laptop was considered "big", now it's considered below average.

Take iphone for example, when it came out in 2007, you had 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB. Now, the minimum iphone 4 is 16GB.

By that Apple logic, the 11" Air you have will be out of production. So, the 11" Air is way below in competition with the Thinkpad in terms of price and future value.

I was trying to be patient with you. You clearly have ZERO experience with solid state because you went and compared it to a HDD.

3dflyboy1
Sep 24, 2011, 02:31 PM
Back on topic, I think that lenovos are splendid, sturdy little machines with *amazing* keyboards. :D Definitely not a waste of money. ;) You just have to get over the boxy look, which I actually kinda like.

ntrigue
Sep 24, 2011, 02:32 PM
I went to Best Buy and compared a Lenovo Thinkpad Edge they were selling for $568 to the low-end MacBook Air about 12 feet away.

Now if memory serves me (over those strenuous 12 feet) I click on the Lenovo and wait for browser, folders and Control Panel to load. Overall though, I don't have a lot of criticisms of Windows 7 because I am used to its quirks from work. The most noticeable thumbs down was that the weight was identical to my three year old MacBook Pro which by the way matches the Geekbench of modern day i3/2.1. The height when set on a desk is between 3x and 4x that of the Air due to these atrocious feet. The fan was visible on the sides and I had about three more obnoxious ports I wouldn't use.

Long story short, here I am looking you in the eye and saying 'meh - I'll keep the Air at twice the price.' Beyond that, also while looking you in the eye, I would strongly recommend you keep that Air for at least two years and savor the resale price as the Lenovo would be donation material at that time.

Ps Really enjoying this spelling autocorrect built into OS X.

nebulos
Sep 24, 2011, 02:44 PM
heh. :o All right...point made.

;-)

EDIT: Back on topic, I think that lenovos are splendid, sturdy little machines with *amazing* keyboards. :D Definitely not a waste of money. ;) You just have to get over the boxy look, which I actually kinda like.

as i've said elsewhere, i like thinkpads. my current laptop is a thinkpad X61 tablet. i'm torn right now deciding between a new MBA or the thinkpad X220 tablet. the X61 lacks a trackpad, which is unbearable, and the two would have different applications, so i may still go MBA as an addition instead of a replacement. in any case, both are great machines. (both have their drawbacks too.)

3dflyboy1
Sep 24, 2011, 02:53 PM
as i've said elsewhere, i like thinkpads. my current laptop is a thinkpad X61 tablet. i'm torn right now deciding between a new MBA or the thinkpad X220 tablet. the X61 lacks a trackpad, which is unbearable, and the two would have different applications, so i may still go MBA as an addition instead of a replacement. in any case, both are great machines. (both have their drawbacks too.)

If only we could have everything in one little computer...stunning LCD, perfect keyboard, trackpad, HD webcam, USB 3.0, (insert very long list of other aspects). :D As far as the trackpad, I've come to love the little red trackpoint, and hardly use the pad anymore. An acquired taste, I guess...?

But the MBA + x61 tab would be a very good combo IMO, unless you don't want to have two machines to choose from, which could be an inconvenience or a benefit.

nebulos
Sep 24, 2011, 03:10 PM
If only we could have everything in one little computer...stunning LCD, perfect keyboard, trackpad, HD webcam, USB 3.0, (insert very long list of other aspects). :D As far as the trackpad, I've come to love the little red trackpoint, and hardly use the pad anymore. An acquired taste, I guess...?

But the MBA + x61 tab would be a very good combo IMO, unless you don't want to have two machines to choose from, which could be an inconvenience or a benefit.

i don't get along with the trackpoint, which is to say, i hate it, though i know it has many fans.

indeed, everything is a compromise, unfortunately. even the X220, at 1366x768, has a worse resolution than my old X61, with custom 1400x1050; both are 12" displays.

i want a computer for music and other creative work, and while the tablet is nice for drawing, the lack of a trackpad is really hard on me, and its also an older ULV C2D CPU, so not super music friendly. though i could get off it, i do use garageband and also have a nice Mac-only external 'soundcard', which currently i use on a mini.

having one vs two computers is, again, a compromise. its nice in some ways, annoying in others. so far i am leaning heavily towards the MBA, though. it's a great machine for music (i would go with a high res 13 MBP if it existed), and the X61 will take the abuse of going to school everyday.

kulimer
Sep 24, 2011, 03:36 PM
This is the wrong place to ask a question like that. There is a unique demographic of people that use Macs but speak like their authorities on windows for the purpose of trashing them. Usually based on the intent of drawing you in to the Apple Eco system.

I've used both Macs & ThinkPads by Lenovo concurrently for years. They are both excellent systems. They each have their strengths. It's all a matter of personal preference. Don' let the low price of Lenovo fool you, they are high quality machines.

That said what makes Apple unique is their superior marketing that convinces people they must be superior due to the high price. When in fact that's one of the miracles is Apples ability to command high prices and huge profit margins. Working with 30% or higher margins than Lenovo & others at 7%.


I believe this explains the high mark up of Apple product in general.

kulimer
Sep 24, 2011, 03:50 PM
;-)
as i've said elsewhere, i like thinkpads. my current laptop is a thinkpad X61 tablet. i'm torn right now deciding between a new MBA or the thinkpad X220 tablet.

Did you sell your Thinkpad or decided to keep it? Share your story.

KPOM
Sep 24, 2011, 03:53 PM
I believe this explains the high mark up of Apple product in general.

That's true, but in the case of the MacBook Air, there were several articles that pointed out that other manufacturers were struggling to get Ultrabooks under the $1000 price point that Intel desired. The ASUS and Acer Ultrabooks in particular were priced in the $1000-$1600 range when equipped similarly to the MacBook Air. Thus, it appears Apple is able to achieve those margins at the Air range primarily through a cost advantage over its competition, rather than a pricing advantage.

Given that the Lenovo X220 up until recently was priced considerably higher than the MacBook Air (look at the pre-"sale" prices), it seems like Lenovo is either selling out old machines in preparation for a revised model, or found that it could not sustain those types of margins and is selling them near cost. In either case, I would not be expecting a deluge of products comparable to the MacBook Air at significantly lower prices. There may be a deluge (at least Intel hopes so), but it will be at generally comparable prices at first.

nebulos
Sep 24, 2011, 04:10 PM
EDITED (less acidic, more to the point):

In response to the above posts, and the several like them in this thread, concerning the very old and increasingly obsolete notion of Apple tax:

Samsung made a Macbook Air competitor, the Series 9. how much does it cost?

Lots of people have made iPad competitors. how much do they cost?

KPOM touched on this as well.

your biases need updating.

... why didn't i sell my X61T? why would i? there's nothing wrong with it, it just doesn't fulfill all my needs. as i mentioned, the X220T has a lower screen res, otherwise i would consider replacing the X61 with it. then again, that would mean not getting an Air, which i want for different uses/reasons.

KnightWRX
Sep 24, 2011, 05:03 PM
Did I just waste my money buying a Mac Air?

Yes. You did. Obviously, you don't value the weight and size of the MacBook Air, nor the SSD in it. Thus you should not have purchased it as it wasn't the segment of laptop you were shopping for.

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 01:10 AM
... why didn't i sell my X61T? why would i? there's nothing wrong with it, it just doesn't fulfill all my needs. as i mentioned, the X220T has a lower screen res, otherwise i would consider replacing the X61 with it. then again, that would mean not getting an Air, which i want for different uses/reasons.

What uses and reasons? Cosmetics, the looks?

Compatibility problems: You can't run math/engineering programs like SAS, come'on now!

Overheated fan, battery problems. See here
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1233624
here
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1233524
and here
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1232784
That's enough links to keep in mind that the $1300+ Mac Air is not problem free. So, on the user experience's front, there is no absolute advantage of Air over Thinkpad. Perhaps, thinner and lighter, is where most of the bragging rights will be.

Here's my anecdote
A high demand for parallel and dual boot, users are still very attached to Windows system, despite how you trash it. It's like your gf vs wife.

Having a Mac Air is like having that HS cheerleader gf you dreamed about, but it annoys me when you bash on how bad your wife is now(Windows in this case), and wanting to file a divorce so badly.

Now that you are with your gf, you misses how good your wife is.

Now that I've made my point, for the sake further discussion, I classified this into software and hardware. Feel free to dive in either one for everyone to see.

Poindexter333
Sep 25, 2011, 04:09 AM
What I find quite interesting are those sad people that can only bash Apple products by bringing up the sheep factor.

Hundreds of millions of products sold to million upon millions of customers. It's created the most valuable corporation on earth with some of the brightest among its proponents. Are all of these consumers brainwashed merely by some mysterious force that compels them to bring out the plastic, and overspend on products whose value is mostly created out of thin air by marketing departments, witty phrases and shiny materials?

Can we all not establish value in our products, on our own, after decades of use and exposure to a product and its characteristics, performance and quality? Or are we simply being led by the nose simply to consume by a marketing department?

But of course those making these claims can always magically see through this "reality distortion field" and make the "right" choice because you're so very special and by inference better than us somehow for your mystical powers of perception?

2-4-8. Figure that out brainiacs. If I wrote it I would surely get bounced.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2445/3907074074_de583ff390.jpg

Goratrix
Sep 25, 2011, 04:27 AM
Can we all not establish value in our products, on our own, after decades of use and exposure to a product and its characteristics, performance and quality? Or are we simply being led by the nose simply to consume by a marketing department?

You should REALLY watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM

(yes, it's 4 hours long, but every minute of it is worth it)

Poindexter333
Sep 25, 2011, 04:54 AM
You should REALLY watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM

(yes, it's 4 hours long, but every minute of it is worth it)

Thanks for this link. I will certainly watch it as I try to be fully informed on as many areas of thought as possible. However I prefer the existential philosophy of the Adlerian Viktor Frankl, versus that of Nietzsche and Freud. His construct was considered to be the third Viennese school of psychotherapy. Read about Frankl's life.

Frankl postulated the fulfillment of self by the will for meaning, versus will to sex (Freud- duh :)) or Nietzsche's will to power. Perhaps this is what comes out of a psychiatrist/neurologist surviving 3 years in the concentration camps- including Auschwitz.

Downloading this for later viewing.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) psychotherapy can influence me on which trackpad I prefer under my fingers, or which OS design I want to use, to whether I prefer solid aluminum or polycarbonate casing materials. :) Terrifying if true.

Abazigal
Sep 25, 2011, 06:07 AM
Last I checked, Windows was still the majority market share holder in the OS market.

Which is why I don't understand how MAC users can ever be classified as sheep. If anything, shouldn't windows users be sheep, and MAC users be the daring few bold enough to challenge the status quo?

How does it make sense that I should show I am not a conformist by opting to do the same thing that 90% of computer users around the world are doing? :confused:

Poindexter333
Sep 25, 2011, 06:11 AM
Last I checked, Windows was still the majority market share holder in the OS market.

Which is why I don't understand how MAC users can ever be classified as sheep. If anything, shouldn't windows users be sheep, and MAC users be the daring few bold enough to challenge the status quo?

How does it make sense that I should show I am not a conformist by opting to do the same thing that 90% of computer users around the world are doing? :confused:

Wow. Thanks for this. In all of my exposure to this topic, I've actually never seen this expressed so well. I shall quote you, often.:)

Abazigal
Sep 25, 2011, 06:32 AM
Wow. Thanks for this. In all of my exposure to this topic, I've actually never seen this expressed so well. I shall quote you, often.:)

Please, go easy on the compliments. I blush easily...:o

I think that people still need to view the entire discussion in context. This is an apple forum, so the majority of people who frequent this site and post here are naturally those who use apple products. If one didn't know better and forgets that this place represents just one minuscule portion of the internet, it may be easy to get the impression that apple products somehow dominate the market, given how the majority of threads revolves around what apple product to buy or whether to upgrade or what not (which is precisely the point of these forums).

However, one needs to bear in mind that for most part, Apple is still a minority player (albeit a fairly successful one) in the computer market. Consider their more popular offerings - the ipad and iphone. You would think that every other guy in the world has one, but the iphone penetration rate in my country is estimated at just 10%, meaning that for every 1 person using an iphone, there are 9 others using some other brand (or not owning a handphone at all). Same for the ipad. It is undeniably popular here (for an IT gadget at any rate), but far from being a "must-have". I certainly don't see that many people toting ipads around.

Poindexter333
Sep 25, 2011, 07:08 AM
Please, go easy on the compliments. I blush easily...:o

I think that people still need to view the entire discussion in context. This is an apple forum, so the majority of people who frequent this site and post here are naturally those who use apple products. If one didn't know better and forgets that this place represents just one minuscule portion of the internet, it may be easy to get the impression that apple products somehow dominate the market, given how the majority of threads revolves around what apple product to buy or whether to upgrade or what not (which is precisely the point of these forums).

However, one needs to bear in mind that for most part, Apple is still a minority player (albeit a fairly successful one) in the computer market. Consider their more popular offerings - the ipad and iphone. You would think that every other guy in the world has one, but the iphone penetration rate in my country is estimated at just 10%, meaning that for every 1 person using an iphone, there are 9 others using some other brand (or not owning a handphone at all). Same for the ipad. It is undeniably popular here (for an IT gadget at any rate), but far from being a "must-have". I certainly don't see that many people toting ipads around.

All true. However, it does bear mentioning that- I believe but have not fully run the total world numbers- Apple computers have more of their product market share than Mercedes Benz (the largest at 1.3%), BMW, Bentley, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, Audi and Rolls Royce combined have of the auto market. (Source- Wall Street Journal 9/01/11)

Means something, not certain what yet. :)

P.S. My sheep comment was primarily aimed at those trolls who seem to be lurking to "pounce" on many here who express their preference for Apple products because of, indeed "in spite of" merely some specification mismatches. These products can not be judged solely on their screen pitch or chip density. Or price for that matter. They comprise much more than their numerical measurements. Some things are not easily quantified or put into neat statistical categories.

dman2011
Sep 25, 2011, 07:28 AM
I think the asus ux series will be the true competitor that ux31 has me thinking twice about picking up an air to replace my 2008 pro

Goratrix
Sep 25, 2011, 08:46 AM
Thanks for this link. I will certainly watch it as I try to be fully informed on as many areas of thought as possible. However I prefer the existential philosophy of the Adlerian Viktor Frankl, versus that of Nietzsche and Freud. His construct was considered to be the third Viennese school of psychotherapy. Read about Frankl's life.

Frankl postulated the fulfillment of self by the will for meaning, versus will to sex (Freud- duh :)) or Nietzsche's will to power. Perhaps this is what comes out of a psychiatrist/neurologist surviving 3 years in the concentration camps- including Auschwitz.

Downloading this for later viewing.

It will be interesting to see how (or if) psychotherapy can influence me on which trackpad I prefer under my fingers, or which OS design I want to use, to whether I prefer solid aluminum or polycarbonate casing materials. :) Terrifying if true.

It's only very loosely about Freud, mainly about his nephew, this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays). The main focus is on how the consumer-oriented society came into being, how it works, and how it gradually adjusted to various social phenomena during the 20th century.

KnightWRX
Sep 25, 2011, 09:56 AM
That's enough links to keep in mind that the $1300+ Mac Air is not problem free. So, on the user experience's front, there is no absolute advantage of Air over Thinkpad. Perhaps, thinner and lighter, is where most of the bragging rights will be.

Thinner and lighter are not about bragging rights, they are about functionality. Thinner and lighter is more functional to people who want to carry around the laptop with other already heavy items, lowering the overall weight and girth that is carried.

Why do you dismiss a functional advantage as a purely aesthetic one ? Maybe because in your personal experience this has low or no value. But realise that for some of us, it has great value, value enough to mean we will shop for these ultra-portables rather than the bulkier, cheaper cousins.

So again : If the MacBook Air is not for you, why do you feel you need to spend so much energy trying to convince us of its compromises ? Why do you feel we don't know about them and haven't accepted them ?

For me, there was no other laptops like it, priced cheaper. I bought it. It was great value, had the best specs for the best price in what I was shopping for : the lightest and smallest laptop.

deeddawg
Sep 25, 2011, 11:05 AM
By the way, which particular i5 or i7, sub-3lb, sub-0.7in thick notebooks are shipping right now with Windows installed and what is their cost?

Well in the next 6 weeks there will be at least 4 in the air price range

Exactly. I look forward to their market entry; more competition is better for the consumer as it keeps the manufacturers pushing forward delivering more value for less money.

KnightWRX
Sep 25, 2011, 11:17 AM
Compatibility problems: You can't run math/engineering programs like SAS, given Mac is Linux based, come'on now!

That's news to me. Praytell what about Mac is Linux based ?

And 2nd, why do you believe Linux or Mac can't run math/engineering software ? Maybe it can't run your particular package, but there are plenty of other packages out there.

dman2011
Sep 25, 2011, 11:26 AM
I wouldn't say they are overpriced they could be cheaper I just think the market has been fixed now and it's going to take a company with some smart initiative to bring it down where it should be

----------

Exactly. I look forward to their market entry; more competition is better for the consumer as it keeps the manufacturers pushing forward delivering more value for less money.

Agree I think this gen will be a good one to buy into that way in a refresh in 2 years time performance upgrades will be worthwhile and based upon a true year long competition even though the 2012 macs will be running the new intel
It will be the next gen that apple really try and kill the competition

deeddawg
Sep 25, 2011, 11:54 AM
It will be the next gen that apple really try and kill the competition

I'm not so sure Apple really has this as a primary motivation. Clearly they want to increase revenue, market share, and profitability -- but I doubt they'll try to compete in the low-cost computer niche.

Their strategy/focus seems to be leadership in "design" differentiation with cost a secondary consideration. They seem to try to stay away from commoditized products except in so far as essentially defining a category.

There was an interesting article from The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/18805483) back in June talking about IBM turning 100 years old and what might have contributed to their longevity as a company. Within the article was this quote (emphasis mine):
[...] On the basis of this simple formula—that a company should focus on an idea, rather than a technology—which of today’s young tech giants look best placed to live to 100? [...] The most obvious example is Apple (founded in 1976). Like IBM, it had a near-death experience in the 1990s, and it is dangerously dependent on its founder, Steve Jobs. But it has a powerful organising idea: take the latest technology, package it in a simple, elegant form and sell it at a premium price. Apple has done this with personal computers, music players, smartphones and tablet computers, and is now moving into cloud-based services (see article). Each time it has grabbed an existing technology and produced an easier-to-use and prettier version than anyone else. This approach can be applied to whatever technology is flavour of the month: Apple has already shifted from PCs to mobile devices.

I doubt we'll ever see Apple trying to compete in the "put out a computer for the lowest possible cost" arena. They'll find some way to pretty it up or embed some design value to create differentiation on some aspect other than cost.

Point being that if all someone cares about is the price and puts no value on design (meaning shape, size, weight, usability, etc), they aren't the person Apple is marketing their products towards. The same people also probably fail to understand why anyone would buy a luxury Mercedes or Audi or BMW or similar when an eight year old Honda Civic will get you around town just fine for a lot less money. :D

deeddawg
Sep 25, 2011, 12:22 PM
By the way, which particular i5 or i7, sub-3lb, sub-0.7in thick notebooks are shipping right now with Windows installed and what is their cost?

Follow up, I ran across one. New Sony Vaio Z. Build to Order page here (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SYCTOProcess?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&LBomId=8198552921666344650&categoryId=8198552921644784028). Review at AnandTech here (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4474/sony-updates-vaio-z-thinner-lighter-light-peak-and-external-gpu).

Weight is 2.5lb, thickness 0.66". i5-2410M CPU, 1600x900 13.1" screen, 4GB RAM, 256GB SSD runs $2270, but includes the "Power Media Dock" for the extra $670 over the MBA 13/256.

Looks like a sweet machine, but clearly Sony isn't targeting the low-cost consumer either.

Also saw the Samsung 9. i5-2537M 1.4GHz, 128GB SSD, 13.3" 1366x768 screen is $1600 at CDW (http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Samsung-NP900X3A-Core-i5-2537M-1.4-GHz-13.3in-TFT/2308624.aspx?psrid=10666595). TigerDirect (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=35535&Sku=S203-133102&SRCCODE=LINKSHARE&cm_mmc_o=-ddCjC1bELltzywCjC-d2CjCdwwp&AffiliateID=jo_pTdthTuc-9j8tIjidw2_W1ttgRy6h4Q) shows it cheaper at $1300

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 01:29 PM
On hardware
A lot Air fans loves the Air, but stutters when it comes to hardware comparison(see below for comparison). The typical answer is "its a different machine", then quickly bring ups its thin weight and portability. True, when it comes to cosmetics, nobody can compare with Apple. (back to the cheerleader gf vs. wife analysis)

It's more than just cosmetics. There's a reason there aren't hordes of ultraportables out there at prices that significantly undercut the Air's. It takes a lot of engineering to make something that small work. It isn't just putting together a bunch of parts and cramming it into a small case. Dell, Lenovo, Sony, and Samsung, Toshiba among others, have tried, and Acer and Asus are, as well. There is always a price premium for ultraportables, no matter who the manufacturer is, and it isn't just style.



The argument is 300GB hard disk drive is slower vs 60GB SSD is smaller.
Breaking point: You can buy 60GB SSD for $59.99 on newegg for cheap. Even on the high end of SSD, you will not have a difference of $1300-$600=$700 difference.

The lowest price 64GB SSD I see is $95.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&IsNodeId=1&Description=ssd%2064gb&bop=And&Order=PRICE&PageSize=20

Comparing some bargain basement clearance price on Newegg isn't a fair comparison, anyway. SSDs are pricey, as NAND supplies are tight. Prices have held fairly steady at around $1.5-$2/GB (larger form factor drives are cheaper, smaller form factors are more expensive). Also, the SSDs in the Airs and the new ultrabooks are the blade style. They aren't your typical 2.5" or even 1.8" devices (again, engineering isn't free).

Plus, we already pointed out that the "$600 Lenovo" really started out at $700, was twice as thick and over 1lb heavier than the 13" Air. Once we found a model roughly comparable (the X220), the starting price jumped up even more. When we added the SSD (which Lenovo wants $280 for) and Bluetooth, the price differential falls below $200. Lenovo evidently thinks a 128GB SSD is worth $280. Are they ripping people off?



Lastly, compare the Air, the Thinkpad and the Sony Vaio Z.

The Vaio Z is even more expensive than the MacBook Air. I guess Sony is really trying to waste people's money.


On software
While I find Apple software interesting, but software like garage band on Mac is just a useless piece of junk. You can't really edit any audio, "there is a lack of MIDI-out capability limits" (see Wiki for more). A lot Mac users choose to uninstall it. LOL! Which is explains why Air users want to install Windows so badly.


The true comparison is between the included software on a Mac and Windows Live from Microsoft. By and large, the Apple products are better. Heck, a Mac can connect to a Microsoft Exchange server out of the box using Mail. Most Windows PCs can't (you need the business version of Office to do that).

The reason many people want to install Windows on Mac is that many of us switched from Windows PCs and have lots of old software or files that we don't want to lose right away. Sure there are some market segments for where there is not an OS X alternative, but as Apple's market share increases, so does the availability of Apple software.

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 01:30 PM
Point being that if all someone cares about is the price and puts no value on design (meaning shape, size, weight, usability, etc), they aren't the person Apple is marketing their products towards. The same people also probably fail to understand why anyone would buy a luxury Mercedes or Audi or BMW or similar when an eight year old Honda Civic will get you around town just fine for a lot less money. :D

As for cars
Mercedes and BMW have many little problems after 1st 5 years, while Honda and Civic lasts forever. Audi just have no resale value, look at used Audi on craigslist.

Back to computers with car
Mercedes and BMW are expensive, not only in design(like how MBA is designed), but also give you more head room and leg room. In MBA, you don't get that room, namely 300GB, I don't think any PC laptop has under 100GB storage space, 200GB to 300GB is the most common I've seen. So, you didn't get a good deal.

nebulos
Sep 25, 2011, 01:30 PM
See my post #179 if you haven't seen it on the high mark up of Apple product.

I saw this in another thread on Macrumors
"Sold my MBA and buying Sony Viao Z"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=894306

On hardware
A lot Air fans loves the Air, but stutters when it comes to hardware comparison(see below for comparison). The typical answer is "its a different machine", then quickly bring ups its thin weight and portability. True, when it comes to cosmetics, nobody can compare with Apple. (back to the cheerleader gf vs. wife analysis)

The argument is 300GB hard disk drive is slower vs 60GB SSD is smaller.
Breaking point: You can buy 60GB SSD for $59.99 on newegg for cheap. Even on the high end of SSD, you will not have a difference of $1300-$600=$700 difference.

In addition, when you already have Windows 7(which is extremely fast, try it if you haven't). I strongly urge everyone try OS and Win 7.

But yes, for the look and feel, or cosmetics in general, Apple wins in absolute advantage. But it needs to focus more on software. The following is what I mean.

On software
While I find Apple software interesting, but software like garage band on Mac is just a useless piece of junk. You can't really edit any audio, "there is a lack of MIDI-out capability limits" (see Wiki for more). A lot Mac users choose to uninstall it. LOL! Which is explains why Air users want to install Windows so badly.

Lastly, compare the Air, the Thinkpad and the Sony Vaio Z.

instead of searching for anything anti-Apple, then running back here shouting about it, why not do something more useful with your time? like eating a bag of dirt.

you've never played music in your life. you don't know anything about music software. you've never used garageband. you don't understand what it is, it's strengths, or it's weaknesses. you simply found one limitation and then copied and pasted it into the thread. tell me, what is midi? (yes, go look it up. maybe that will keep you busy for a while.) a lot of mac users aren't musicians. and not all who are want to use garageband. all this proves is that your brain needs to hit the gym, desperately.

you talk about being a mindless sheep about a product?

Goratrix
Sep 25, 2011, 01:35 PM
It takes a lot of engineering to make something that small work.

It also takes a lot of compromising and taking stuff out, which most Windows customers would simply not accept. Things like missing importatnt ports, keyboard used for air intake (sensitive to slightest water damage), built-in battery, non-upgradable RAM, hardy upgradable SSD, fragile screen cover, missing card reader (11"), etc...

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 01:48 PM
Comparing some bargain basement clearance price on Newegg isn't a fair comparison, anyway. SSDs are pricey, as NAND supplies are tight. Prices have held fairly steady at around $1.5-$2/GB (larger form factor drives are cheaper, smaller form factors are more expensive). Also, the SSDs in the Airs and the new ultrabooks are the blade style. They aren't your typical 2.5" or even 1.8" devices (again, engineering isn't free).

The Vaio Z is even more expensive than the MacBook Air. I guess Sony is really trying to waste people's money.


say at $2/GB, you buy 68GB, that costs you $132 at most. Hypothetically speaking, I add 68GB to my 300GB HDD, and still cheaper the Air, I will let you take an equivalent laptop of the Air in Thinkpad.

As for Vaio Z, you have
The hardware
13.1" HD antiglare
Resolution: 1600x900
Intel® Core™ i7-2620M
256GB SSD
6GB RAM
2.57lbs (This can be counted as part of the cosmetics department)
battery: Up to 14 hours

The software (ALL FREE)
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional
Microsoft® Office
Adobe® Creative Software : Adobe Acrobat® Standard 9.0

Plus, you get to engrave your name on it, just like the ipod. :)

I see everything that is better than the Air, the cost is a little higher, but it is reasonable. This is called an absolute advantage, meaning everything is as good as, or better.

As between the Air and Thinkpad (I am not referring to my very first post), is called an relative advantage, meaning some things are better, while others are not.

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 01:54 PM
As for cars
Mercedes and BMW have many little problems after 1st 5 years, while Honda and Civic lasts forever. Audi just have no resale value, look at used Audi on craigslist.

Back to computers with car
Mercedes and BMW are expensive, not only in design(like how MBA is designed), but also give you my head room and leg room. In MBA, you don't get that room, namely 300GB you got, I don't think any PC laptop has under 100GB storage space, 200GB to 300GB is the most common I've seen. So, you didn't get a good deal.

So the people who purchased the Lenovo or Sony Vaio Z with the 128GB SSD also didn't get a good deal?

There isn't much storage space in a BMW Z4, or Acura TSX. Acuras are as reliable as Hondas (since they ARE Hondas).

There are plenty of PC Ultrabooks coming with less than 100GB. How else do you think they will get below the $1000 price point?

Even with 2 OSes running, I managed with a 128GB SSD for over 2 years. I still could today if I wanted to. Having 200GB free space does nothing for me, so why not get the SSD?

----------

say at $2/GB, you buy 68GB, that costs you $132 at most. Hypothetically speaking, I add 68GB to my 300GB HDD, and still cheaper the Air, I will let you take an equivalent laptop of the Air in Thinkpad.


But the why does Lenovo charge $280 for the 128GB SSD? There is no "hypothetical" there. You can't add a 64GB SSD to the 320GH HDD on the Lenovo. I could hypothetically add a 2TB external drive to the MacBook Air and still be less than the Vaio Z. Does that make it "better"?



As for Vaio Z, you get the following
256GB SSD
6GB RAM
2.57lbs

more RAM, same 256GB SSD, AND less weight. The is called an absolute advantage, meaning everything is as good as, or better.

No surprise that the cheapest Vaio Z costs more than the most expensive MacBook Air, then. It isn't an absolute advantage, after all. If it were the same price or less, then it would be.

Your points are quickly crumbling. In order to get something (Vaio Z) with an absolute advantage over the Air, you need to spend more money. How does that make the Air overpriced?


What the Air had over Thinkpad (I am not comparing this to my very first post), is called an relative advantage, meaning some things are better, while others are not.

Again, how does that show that the Air is overpriced? Different people will value different things.

djdjukic
Sep 25, 2011, 01:58 PM
Good man, let me put it bluntly:

You are a troll if you come to a Mac forum and hype Windows 7.
You are quite uneducated if you do not know the difference between a HDD and an SSD.

I do see what you're coming to: you can get a cheaper PC with similar processing power to the Air. Fair enough.

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 02:00 PM
The software (ALL FREE)
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional

But I get "genuine" OS X Lion - Tie.



Microsoft® Office

"Microsoft® Office Starter with reduced-functionality versions of Word and Excel®6"

It sounds like typical "garbageware" to me (an attempt to sell me Office)



Adobe® Creative Software : Adobe Acrobat® Standard 9.0

That is nice, but remember that OS X has the native ability to create PDF files.



Plus, you can engrave your name on it, just like the ipod.

What function does this add?


I see everything that is better than the Air, the cost is a little higher, but it is reasonable. This is called an absolute advantage, meaning everything is as good as, or better.

The Vaio Z starts at $1999.99, which is $301 more than the most expensive MacBook Air. And that's with a 2.3GHz Core i5 (comparable to the one in the 13" Pro) 4GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666350153#footNotes).

Why is a $300 price differential "reasonable" for the Vaio Z, but a $180 price differential between the MacBook Air and Lenovo X220 (as close as possible to comparably equipped) "unreasonable"?

nebulos
Sep 25, 2011, 02:03 PM
As for Vaio Z, you have
The hardware
Intel® Core™ i7-2620M
256GB SSD
6GB RAM
2.57lbs (This can be counted as part of the cosmetics department)
battery: Up to 14 hours

The software (ALL FREE)
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional
Microsoft® Office
Adobe® Creative Software : Adobe Acrobat® Standard 9.0

Plus, you can engrave your name on it, just like the ipod.

I see everything that is better than the Air, the cost is a little higher, but it is reasonable. This is called an absolute advantage, meaning everything is as good as, or better.

your posts are skull vomit.

i went to sony.com.

the Vaio Z starts at $1970.

configured with the i7, 256GB SSD, and 6GB RAM, its $2500.

Office is not free. i saw no mention of Adobe.

"up to 14 hours" battery life is with the extra battery slice, which is another $100.

lightweight is a feature, but not a cosmetic feature, which goes for the Air as well.

why are you wasting everyone's time?

either get with it and post something of value or shut up already.

deeddawg
Sep 25, 2011, 02:08 PM
As for cars

You completely missed the point here. Try again.

In MBA, you don't get that room, namely 300GB you got, I don't think any PC laptop has under 100GB storage space, 200GB to 300GB is the most common I've seen. So, you didn't get a good deal.

You know that 128GB and 256GB options are available. You wrote "Did you buy the 128GB or 256GB?" here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13278550&postcount=25).

scarred
Sep 25, 2011, 02:19 PM
So, can someone explain what are some of the absolute advantages besides the cosmetics? Meaning, having an edge over everyone else.

Stop bumping your own thread. The advantages are plain enough for everyone to see. I suggest you go and visit anandtech.com for a good overview of the Air and what it offers.

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 02:24 PM
So, can someone explain what are some of the absolute advantages besides the cosmetics? Meaning, having an edge over everyone else.

It has Thunderbolt, for starters. The display is better, too (just read the AnandTech review).

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4528/the-2011-macbook-air-11-13inch-review/7

Plus, size isn't just "cosmetic." I'm sure we could get even cheaper and faster than the Lenovo if we were willing to settle for a 5 or 6lb notebook.

We've demonstrated over and over again that the MacBook Air is comparably priced to comparable notebooks (e.g. Samsung Series 9, upcoming Asus UX31). We have also shown that the Lenovo is also priced closely. All you have been doing is dismissing every advantage as "cosmetic" or "useless," and then point to an even more expensive Sony as evidence that the Air doesn't have any advantages.

Relative advantages are advantages, too. Sure, I can get a more powerful system with Sony, but I need to spend $2300 if I want 256GB of SSD and roughly the same processing power as I have with my $1650 11" i7. I don't need the Power Media Dock or other advantages, so I chose the system with relative advantage to me. If the Lenovo has the relative advantage to you, go get it and stop complaining about the Air.

Pipper99
Sep 25, 2011, 02:27 PM
instead of searching for anything anti-Apple, then running back here shouting about it, why not do something more useful with your time? like eating a bag of dirt.

you've never played music in your life. you don't know anything about music software. you've never used garageband. you don't understand what it is, it's strengths, or it's weaknesses. you simply found one limitation and then copied and pasted it into the thread. tell me, what is midi? (yes, go look it up. maybe that will keep you busy for a while.) a lot of mac users aren't musicians. and not all who are want to use garageband. all this proves is that your brain needs to hit the gym, desperately.

you talk about being a mindless sheep about a product?

Agree.

The OP's title to his original post would more accurately be stated as, "You idiot Mac lovers wasted your money on the MBA"

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 02:34 PM
It also takes a lot of compromising and taking stuff out, which most Windows customers would simply not accept. Things like missing important ports, keyboard used for air intake (sensitive to slightest water damage), built-in battery, non-upgradable RAM, hardy upgradable SSD, fragile screen cover, missing card reader (11"), etc...

And a lot of Mac users, as well. That's why they make the MacBook Pro. I do think the MacBook Pro line is showing its age, though. If this thread were about how the 15" and 17" MacBook Pro lines are priced considerably higher than similar Windows notebooks, there would be a lot more substance to it.

However, Intel apparently thinks that 40% of the notebook market will want devices like the Air by the end of next year, which is why they started the Ultrabook project.

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 02:38 PM
It has Thunderbolt, for starters. The display is better, too (just read the AnandTech review).

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4528/the-2011-macbook-air-11-13inch-review/7

Plus, size isn't just "cosmetic." I'm sure we could get even cheaper and faster than the Lenovo if we were willing to settle for a 5 or 6lb notebook.

We've demonstrated over and over again that the MacBook Air is comparably priced to comparable notebooks (e.g. Samsung Series 9, upcoming Asus UX31). We have also shown that the Lenovo is also priced closely. All you have been doing is dismissing every advantage as "cosmetic" or "useless," and then point to an even more expensive Sony as evidence that the Air doesn't have any advantages.

Relative advantages are advantages, too. Sure, I can get a more powerful system with Sony, but I need to spend $2300 if I want 256GB of SSD and roughly the same processing power as I have with my $1650 11" i7. I don't need the Power Media Dock or other advantages, so I chose the system with relative advantage to me. If the Lenovo has the relative advantage to you, go get it and stop complaining about the Air.

When I said size and cosmetics because they are related to looks, so I group them together into the cosmetics department.

I did see the $1999 as you mentioned, which is $300 more than the top of the Air, the price is fair enough, since practically everything got upgraded, even including the small stuff like antiglare screen (now that even surpasses the Air).

Having this "Adobe® Creative Software does lure me into the laptop, because you literally get nothing when you purchase the Air.

So, how does all this relate to my topic? Air needs to reduce its price, again, it is a nice laptop, but overpriced. see my post #179

Plus the $100 student gift card. I heard a lot people who has it don't care about it and never used it. Does that say something about the software end? At least that is my impression to any lay person out there.

If you want speed the processor and the ram, Sony will give you what you need. Now that's the real deal, but it is above my budget. Then, again, you are actually paying more for something definitively better.

So, is the Air just a hype? Some of you asked, why are you asking this in here? You know this is not the right place to ask, then again, if I ask it elsewhere, I will get the answer I want, and nobody will stubbornly debate me.

Icaras
Sep 25, 2011, 02:41 PM
Edit:

Air needs to reduce its price, again, it is a nice laptop, but overpriced. see my post #179

No....You need to up your comprehension or just get a Windows laptop.

So, is the Air just a hype? Some of you asked, why are you asking this in here? You know this is not the right place to ask, then again, if I ask it elsewhere, I will get the answer I want, and nobody will stubbornly debate me.

Just get your thinkpad and get out of here already.

deeddawg
Sep 25, 2011, 02:52 PM
you literally get nothing when you purchase the Air, not even a reduced functionality MS Word like you mentioned.

This is incorrect. Basic wordprocessing, calendar, email, contact management, and PDF creation/annotation capabilities are all included out of the box. TextEdit / iCal / Mail / AddressBook / Preview. OpenOffice is available for Mac or PC for free also.

Keynote, Pages, and Numbers are all $20 each if you need presentation, full word-processing, and spreadsheet capability and OpenOffice doesn't do it for you. Or buy the full MS Office. As a student (based on an earlier post of yours regarding grad school, if I remember correctly) it should be cheap; I've seen Academic Office for Mac 2011 for $57.


Plus the $100 student gift card. I heard a lot people who has it don't care about it and never used it. Does that say something about the software end? At least that is my impression to any lay person out there.

Do you go out and re-buy all your Windows applications when you upgrade to a new Windows computer? Or do you do like most people and move your licenses over to the new system?

Only someone new to the Mac platform is likely to have a bunch of applications they need to buy. Those who are moving from a previous Mac likely doesn't need much of anything since so much functionality is built into the system.

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 02:55 PM
as for $2300, I did not see, I did see the $1999 as you mentioned, which is $300 more than the top of the Air, I think it is fair enough, since practically everything got upgraded, including antiglare screen (now that even surpasses the Air).

The Vaio is $1969 with a 128GB SSD. With a 256GB SSD, 2.3GHz i5, and 4GB RAM, it is $2269. If you don't believe me, configure it for yourself (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SYCTOProcess?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&LBomId=8198552921666344650&categoryId=8198552921644784028&XID=A:4169666:10383604:1u36frsv1hnco:CJ&ref=http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=13404363&posted=1).

And that's with Windows 7 Home Premium. If you want to connect to a corporate network, that's an extra $50.

That's $571 more than the most expensive MacBook Air. Yes, it has a higher resolution screen, is .4lbs lighter, and has the external media dock, but it is still $571 more. Engineering isn't free.


Having this "Adobe® Creative Software : Adobe Acrobat® Standard 9.0" does lure me into the laptop, because you literally get nothing when you purchase the Air, not even a reduced functionality MS Word like you mentioned.

That's the old version of Adobe. I've seen it for $99 (http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Acrobat-9-0-Standard-complete/dp/B003XWJ53U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1316980223&sr=8-4). It's nice that they include it, but again, not everyone needs it.

No, you don't get "nothing" with a Mac. You get iLife, and a fully functional e-mail reader with Exchange Server compatibility (something that no version of Windows 7 comes with out of the box). If you want iWork, it's $20 per program. Here's what Office Starter is: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/starter/

If you want advertising, and a crippled version of Word and Excel, fine, but if not, Office Home/Student is $120. iWork is $80 (or $40 if you just need Pages and Numbers).




So, is the Air just a hype? Some of you asked, why are you asking this in here? You know this is not the right place to ask, then again, if I ask it elsewhere, I will get the answer I want, and nobody will stubbornly debate me.

No, the Air isn't just hype. It's a nice mid-range ultraportable for a mid-range ultraportable price. It's the first ultraportable targeted to mainstream consumers. Unlike Sony (and even Apple itself with earlier versions of the Air), they didn't price it in the stratosphere. Naturally, the laws of physics and economics still hold, so of course it isn't as nicely equipped as the Sony, but it is still nicely equipped.

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 03:02 PM
This is incorrect. Basic wordprocessing, calendar, email, contact management, and PDF creation/annotation capabilities are all included out of the box. TextEdit / iCal / Mail / AddressBook / Preview. OpenOffice is available for Mac or PC for free also.

Keynote, Pages, and Numbers are all $20 each if you need presentation, full word-processing, and spreadsheet capability and OpenOffice doesn't do it for you. Or buy the full MS Office.

The six programs you mentioned are what I have on my smartphone programs. Not to dis, but LOL! My smart phone can handles them all, including OpenOffice.

By the way, why are you bring in OpenOffice in the picture? I will use my poker anecdote here.

Poke Anecdote
When you are playing poker, there's 3 communal cards, meaning everyone can use those 3 cards to make 5-card hand, so you can't say you have a good hands by pointing at those 3 cards.

It's really about the two cards you have in your hands against everybody else's hand. In this case, the OpenOffice is the 3 communal cards. (sorry those who don't play poker)

deeddawg
Sep 25, 2011, 03:11 PM
The six programs you mentioned are what I have on my smartphone programs.

You started by saying the functionality didn't exist. Now you try to dismiss it with no knowledge of the software capabilities.

Funny you mention smartphones. How well does that limited-capability version of Office work with your smartphone? The Mac apps do so very well.

OpenOffice mention was to illustrate the capabilities are available for any platform at no cost -- thereby completely eliminating any basis for your argument of enhanced value from the limited-functionality Office version. If you thought I mentioned it as an "advantage" to Mac, you didn't comprehend my post.

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 03:19 PM
The six programs you mentioned are what I have on my smartphone programs. Not to dis, but LOL! My smart phone can handles them all, including OpenOffice.

By the way, why are you bring in OpenOffice in the picture? I will use my poker anecdote here.


Office Starter is probably less powerful than Documents To Go that I have on my BlackBerry and Android phones (and it is littered with annoying advertising). Windows Live Mail can't talk to an Exchange server. My BlackBerry can. Does that mean Windows is less powerful, out of box, than my BlackBerry?

With all due respect, you appear to be very misinformed. Have you sold your MacBook Air yet? If not, why not?

feflower
Sep 25, 2011, 04:16 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25


Yes--you wasted your money.

MacinDoc
Sep 25, 2011, 04:17 PM
I just saw this post, and thought I would share, it is quite a fair assessment. And I agree with what he/she said. Thanks for your input.
Well, it seems clear then that although the Air is not overpriced for what it is, it may not have been the best matched product for your particular needs.

So I guess you have to decide whether to sell it at a small loss and replace it with something less expensive, or keep it and continue to enjoy it.

Razzz
Sep 25, 2011, 04:23 PM
seems like the resale value of the mba has slipped your mind?

plus mba is much better looking and snappier,

Young Spade
Sep 25, 2011, 04:26 PM
seems like the resale value of the mba has slipped your mind?

plus mba is much better looking and snappier,

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Lagmonster
Sep 25, 2011, 04:31 PM
I can't get OSX running well on my work ThinkPads so until then, the Air is the way to go for me =)

I could have any ThinkPad I want at work. I would much prefer to just use my Air if I could.

Abazigal
Sep 25, 2011, 05:01 PM
Can you all just stop posting in this thread and let it die a natural death already? :(

macjunk(ie)
Sep 25, 2011, 05:28 PM
While I agree there are aspects of Mac OSX that I enjoy there are features that I miss from Windows (snap window feature for e.g.).

have u tried better touch tool ? It gives u the snap feature...

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 07:13 PM
I can't get OSX running well on my work ThinkPads so until then, the Air is the way to go for me =)

I could have any ThinkPad I want at work. I would much prefer to just use my Air if I could.

Want to have OSX on your Thinkpad for what? So, that you can run parallel and use Windows.

It's like saying "I dress myself before I go to bed so I can undress again, so that I get get dressed and then undress AGAIN." Ok, that sentence can keep on repeating, but you get the point, the keyword for that is: redundant.

I mean, there really is no need, I already mentioned the engineering program such as SAS, again that might not pertain to most users here, but when you need it, it's a pain.

Anyways, just my 2 cents since you brought it up. :)

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 07:21 PM
Want to have OSX on your Thinkpad for what? So, that you can run parallel and use Windows.


How about so I can run programs that are exclusive to OS X, such as FileMaker Pro, Final Cut, Bento, iLife, Aperture, and Osirix, among others?

Pipper99
Sep 25, 2011, 07:31 PM
Can you all just stop posting in this thread and let it die a natural death already? :(

You're right: let's stop feeding the monster. I'm going back to my blind Apple loyalty. ;)

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 09:58 PM
How about so I can run programs that are exclusive to OS X, such as FileMaker Pro, Final Cut, Bento, iLife, Aperture, and Osirix, among others?

This one is on software review/comparison
I went over to a friend's iMac to try it out. I suppose there is no difference in the software between MacBook and iMac? As far as I see, these are photo editing software. Mac in general is good choice photo editing, I think even the Windows guys can agree with me.

Photoshop is also good if you don't use a Mac, I've had friends working at magazine and journal photo without a Mac.

But again, in the realms such as engineering and programming, Dos prompt anyone? Software support, Apple!!!

Mac do come with good photo editing programs, but gosh, I don't need any of that, do you got anything else good that comes with computer?

Then, I am sold to the apps store. More money, what? You've already got a good chunk of my wallet. This is another thing about OSX, stop sucking out my money. Similar with iphone.

In Windows, nothing is technically free, but you get pretty much everything for free. I think I'll miss that part of Windows.

KPOM
Sep 25, 2011, 10:04 PM
Then, I am sold to the apps store. This is another thing about OSX, why can't you get anything for free?

In Windows, nothing is technically free, but you get always get one for free. I think I'll miss that part of Windows, anyone agree with me?

There is plenty free on the Mac App Store. I think you'll see even more free or low-cost software on the Mac platform now that it is there. Of course, with 90% of the market, Windows will attract more casual developers, but the situation is improving on the OS X front.

nebulos
Sep 25, 2011, 10:12 PM
In Windows, nothing is technically free, but you get pretty much everything for free. I think I'll miss that part of Windows.

what he's talking about here is pirating software.

kulimer
Sep 25, 2011, 10:21 PM
There is plenty free on the Mac App Store. I think you'll see even more free or low-cost software on the Mac platform now that it is there. Of course, with 90% of the market, Windows will attract more casual developers, but the situation is improving on the OS X front.

The thing I find with with free Apple software is that, the free ones are usually useless, not saying there aren't good ones, but majority of the good ones cost quite a bit.

In another word, the Apple developer has been to smart about their price and marketing, they don't want to lose a penny, which scares the customers away. (iphone apps are examples that everyone knows)

On Windows's end, they didn't do such a good job, it's their loss, our gain. Again, you can't blame people for wanting free stuff. Of all seriousness, we all learned to appreciate that. :)

PS:
Back to the ideology of a rational consumer, in economics the term is, Ceteris paribus, meaning all things equal. You are always wanting the cheaper thing.

iLoveiTunes
Sep 25, 2011, 10:25 PM
Hey Nice ad lenevo folks... try again maybe you'll sell some units ...:D

jsolares
Sep 26, 2011, 03:59 PM
The thing I find with with free Apple software is that, the free ones are usually useless, not saying there aren't good ones, but majority of the good ones cost quite a bit.

In another word, the Apple developer has been to smart about their price and marketing, they don't want to lose a penny, which scares the customers away. (iphone apps are examples that everyone knows)

On Windows's end, they didn't do such a good job, it's their loss, our gain. Again, you can't blame people for wanting free stuff. Of all seriousness, we all learned to appreciate that. :)

PS:
Back to the ideology of a rational consumer, in economics the term is, Ceteris paribus, meaning all things equal. You are always wanting the cheaper thing.

Huh :confused:, because the free software in windows is all superb quality?

Dude seriously, what are you smoking?, most of the good free software is available for both platforms, and all great software cost a lot both in windows and osx...

Young Spade
Sep 26, 2011, 04:27 PM
Huh :confused:, because the free software in windows is all superb quality?

Dude seriously, what are you smoking?, most of the good free software is available for both platforms, and all great software cost a lot both in windows and osx...

I did SO MUCH with my computer before I spent one dime; it wasn't until I actually got the gift card that I spent money, and I only spent 50 bucks so far.

If you know where to look, and of course, you actually want the right things, you can get so much for free; i'm using so many small programs that I would have never even thought of using during my entire time with Windows.

Beanoir
Sep 26, 2011, 05:16 PM
I quite like my Lenevo, it's perfect for the tasks I need it it to do, and takes a lot more abuse than the MBA does. Its a work horse, pretty much what it was designed to do.

Yebubbleman
Sep 26, 2011, 05:21 PM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600(website below). You have

4GB ram
500GB Hard drive
intel Core i7, NOT i5 :)
brand new windows 7
6 hrs battery
14" HD screen

I see what Mac is offering, but with that money, I can buy a Lenovo, use for a year, toss it in the trash, and still got money for another one. I am just like WOW.


Here is the website: http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?action=init&current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=9F4D9F1B85C24267B579D9A60A9BDD25

Edit: I actually didn't factor in the cost of Apple Apps, since for windows you pretty much get everything for free after buying to laptop, even though it is not.

The MacBook Air is a terrible value unless thin and light are must-haves for you. For most people, that's not the case in which case a 13" MacBook Pro will always be a better value than a 13" MacBook Air. Given that, you're pretty much comparing apples and oranges. If you want to compare the 13" Pro to your Lenovo, then yes, the Lenovo will (also) always be cheaper. Apple's laptops don't really leave the realm of egregiously expensive until you get to the 15" MacBook Pro at which point, you're only paying $300-400 more for the Apple laptop, which when you factor in the Unibody engineering, is completely reasonable.

Icaras
Sep 26, 2011, 06:01 PM
The MacBook Air is a terrible value unless thin and light are must-haves for you.

Are you still trying to grasp for straws now that the White Macbook got axed? The MBA is a great value to a whole lot of customers. You don't have to look further than sales numbers and Apple's high customer satisfaction rate.

I remember in my previous debate with you, i argued that the White Macbook would eventually get discontinued, surely looking at recent market trends, while you were extremely quick to shoot that notion down, saying if any Macbook product would go, it would be the 13" MBP. Well, here we are today, and look which Macbook is on top.

To exclude the qualities of being ultra-thin and light from the Air's lists of strengths is a huge oversight and is why recent sales and market trends have contradicted your opinion of what you consider to be of value. Numbers aren't everything, if you haven't figured that out by now already.

Yebubbleman
Sep 26, 2011, 06:12 PM
Are you still trying to grasp for straws now that the White Macbook got axed?

Nice assumption there. No, the white MacBook lacked FireWire 800 and Thunderbolt and thusly lacked Target Disk Mode which is an absolute must-have for me; I mourn its loss for those who want to pay $1000 and actually get a full-featured Mac complete with an optical drive, expandable (and thusly, replaceable) RAM, an ethernet port and a CPU that isn't scaled down as to not overheat in such a small thermal envelope.

The MBA is a great value to a whole lot of customers. You don't have to look further than sales numbers and Apple's high customer satisfaction rate.

Cool story, bro. Again, unless weight, size, and Blade SSDs are a must, you are spending more for less computer, that you cannot argue against because a quick trip to the Apple Online Store (or any Authorized third-party reseller) will prove any argument against that to be wrong.

I remember in my previous debate with you, i argued that the White Macbook would eventually get discontinued, surely looking at recent market trends, while you were extremely quick to shoot that notion down, saying if any Macbook product would go, it would be the 13" MBP. Well, here we are today, and look which Macbook is on top.

You were right, I was wrong. Is your ego satisfied now?

To exclude the qualities of being ultra-thin and light from the Air's lists of strengths is a huge oversight and is why recent sales and market trends have contradicted your opinion of what you consider to be of value. Numbers aren't everything, if you haven't figured that out by now already.

13" Pro sells more than either MacBook Air model. Always has. Also, I'm not excluding ultra-thin and ultra-light from the Air's list of strengths. On the contrary, I'm highlighting them as the only significant reasons to buy one of those instead of a 13" Pro as again, any other reason for doing so is pretty dumb, which doesn't negate your point of many people buying them (as many people are dumb).

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 06:21 PM
Nice assumption there. No, the white MacBook lacked FireWire 800 and Thunderbolt and thusly lacked Target Disk Mode which is an absolute must-have for me; I mourn its loss for those who want to pay $1000 and actually get a full-featured Mac.

Cool story, bro. Again, unless weight, size, and Blade SSDs are a must, you are spending more for less computer, that you cannot argue against because a quick trip to the Apple Online Store (or any Authorized third-party reseller) will prove any argument against that to be wrong.

13" Pro sells more than either MacBook Air model. Always has. Also, I'm not excluding ultra-thin and ultra-light from the Air's list of strengths. On the contrary, I'm highlighting them as the only significant reasons to buy one of those instead of a 13" Pro as again, any other reason for doing so is pretty dumb, which doesn't negate your point of many people buying them (as many people are dumb).

(putting my baggage on this thread aside for the moment),

i think the MBA is actually among the best values of all the macs. the big problem with the 13 MBP is its resolution; so you have to add resolution to your list of what the MBA offers, over say the 13 MBP.

how is the Air not full-featured now that it has TB? 13 MBP has always sold more. the 2011 MBA is a different animal than previous gens.

here's one way to think of it:

Apple could have offered a $100 resolution upgrade on the 13 MBP to 1440x900. Let's suppose they did. Now the HD 13 MBP and the 13 MBA are the same price. which one do you go for? unless you're doing music or video or other power hungry work, the CPU and RAM options of the MBP are meaningless. so you're trading storage space and a DVD drive for lightweight and an SSD. i'd go with the Air.

... except, i, as a musician/other, would go for the HD MBP. unfortunately, the resolution on the 13 MBP IS a deal breaker. so weight and SSD are not the only reasons to go MBA. this is Apple fault for, god knows why, leaving the 13 MBP at 1280x800.

Yebubbleman
Sep 26, 2011, 06:27 PM
(putting my baggage on this thread aside for the moment),

i think the MBA is actually among the best values of all the macs. the big problem with the 13 MBP is its resolution; so you have to add resolution to your list of what the MBA offers, over say the 13 MBP.

how is the Air not full-featured now that it has TB? 13 MBP has always sold more. the 2011 MBA is a different animal than previous gens.

Ah yeah, the resolution on the 13" Air is (for some seriously stupid reason) better than the 13" Pro. And yes, for the components enclosed and the engineering required to make them, it's not a bad deal. However, in terms of sheer power, it's lacking in ways that the 13" Pro simply isn't. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a poorly made machine, but given that I can comfortably lift five pounds, the Air is underpowered for the money being spent on it.

Thunderbolt doesn't make the MacBook Air full-featured, it just means that to get the ports I sacrificed by having such a small computer, I need an external accessory which kind of negates the wonderful all-in-one nature of laptop computers to begin with.

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 06:34 PM
Ah yeah, the resolution on the 13" Air is (for some seriously stupid reason) better than the 13" Pro. And yes, for the components enclosed and the engineering required to make them, it's not a bad deal. However, in terms of sheer power, it's lacking in ways that the 13" Pro simply isn't. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a poorly made machine, but given that I can comfortably lift five pounds, the Air is underpowered for the money being spent on it.

Thunderbolt doesn't make the MacBook Air full-featured, it just means that to get the ports I sacrificed by having such a small computer, I need an external accessory which kind of negates the wonderful all-in-one nature of laptop computers to begin with.

i just don't think it's that underpowered, anymore. the CPU + RAM combos in the 2011 MBAs are more than enough for all but power hungry users.

anyways, i shouldn't say MBA is better. but that the trade-offs are reasonable, and do not center solely on weight, (which to some is meaningless, and to others means the world).

just like saying the loss of ports/etc makes the MBA less of a laptop, of course, the loss of ports/etc makes it more of a laptop, precisely because of the increase in portability.

... again, i'm guessing weight is not a big deal to you, so those arguments don't really appeal to you, but weight is a huge deal for many.

grapes911
Sep 26, 2011, 06:41 PM
Members seem very interested in this topic so we did our best to keep it open. For it to remain open:

Refrain from naming calling, including calling others troll, fanboy or hater.
Do not troll.
Do not rehash or repost information that was deleted during cleanup. Posts and comments were deleted for a reason.
This thread is not the place to discuss forum policy or complain about moderation.
Report posts that do not conform to the rules of this forum. Do not reply to them as it makes clean up even harder.
Follow the rules of the forum that are not specifically mentioned above.

Do not reply to this post.

KnightWRX
Sep 26, 2011, 08:10 PM
The MacBook Air is a terrible value unless thin and light are must-haves for you.

That's because thin and light are part of the MacBook Air's value. Obviously, a pick-up truck is a terrible value if you want a small commuter that is gas efficient. A small commuter that is gas efficient is a terrible value if you need towing capacity and cargo space.

Different needs, different products. To compare the MacBook Air to other computers that do not share it's primary value-added characteristics that are its weight and size is simply an exercise in futility.

Get another laptop.

kulimer
Sep 26, 2011, 08:39 PM
When you write a post, say it is pertaining to hardware or software in the beginning, it helps everyone to identify what you want to say, and away from guys off topic.

I quite like my Lenevo, it's perfect for the tasks I need it it to do, and takes a lot more abuse than the MBA does. Its a work horse, pretty much what it was designed to do.


This one is on hardware
On Mac
I can definitely relate to that, especially the fragility of the iphone, the cracked screen is one of the most common.

(I used to use Nokia N95, and came across the analogy that iphone is your gf/lust, while Nokia is your wife, no matter how much you drop the Nokia, she's still works, no complaint. Of course that can be a bit exaggerated, but you get the idea ;))

MacBook Air might be different from iphone in terms of quality, won't speak for it now. Though it is reasonable to assume its fragility.

On Thinkpad
This one in particular is Thinkpad E220s for $775.20, (see link), the highlight I find are
LED backlight
3.23 lbs
4 USB ports
military fireproof (or something like that, I read it but can't find it at the time of post)
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=858AB3587B7A473CDFFF16F8B846A06C&action=init


PS: I think everyone will agree with me on this, you don't have to use Mac or Windows to like or dislike the other. I also support the moderator above, our discussion will make things very clear what are the strength and weakness of each.

Yebubbleman
Sep 26, 2011, 09:16 PM
i just don't think it's that underpowered, anymore. the CPU + RAM combos in the 2011 MBAs are more than enough for all but power hungry users.

True, though again, you do get more power in a 13" Pro for cheaper than a 13" Air.

anyways, i shouldn't say MBA is better. but that the trade-offs are reasonable, and do not center solely on weight, (which to some is meaningless, and to others means the world).

Right, and that's why I said unless thinness and weight are important to you, it's a terrible value. That's not to say that for those who value thinness and weight, it is also a terrible value, but rather to say that if you don't care about thinness and weight, it's not a good value.

just like saying the loss of ports/etc makes the MBA less of a laptop, of course, the loss of ports/etc makes it more of a laptop, precisely because of the increase in portability.

I think that's subjective. Personally, I don't want to have to need to hook up my laptop to anything in order to do the things I could do (externally) on a desktop as that's inconvenient and why I was happy to see Apple abandon port replicators while the rest of the PC market continued to use them in the late 90's. But that's just my preference, not gospel.

... again, i'm guessing weight is not a big deal to you, so those arguments don't really appeal to you, but weight is a huge deal for many.

Oh sure, again, hence the "Unless weight and thinness matter to you" in my original statement.

That's because thin and light are part of the MacBook Air's value. Obviously, a pick-up truck is a terrible value if you want a small commuter that is gas efficient. A small commuter that is gas efficient is a terrible value if you need towing capacity and cargo space.

Different needs, different products. To compare the MacBook Air to other computers that do not share it's primary value-added characteristics that are its weight and size is simply an exercise in futility.

Get another laptop.

Reread what you quoted me saying. I say "unless weight and thinness matter to you", which doesn't imply that I think that the MacBook Air is stupid for everyone, just for people who don't care about the main things that the MacBook Air have going for it, namely weight and thinness. For those that want that in a computer, it's a great buy. For those that don't care and would be just as happy with a 13" MacBook Pro, it's a terrible buy.

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 09:40 PM
Right, and that's why I said unless thinness and weight are important to you, it's a terrible value.

but this is what i'm disagreeing with.

weight aside, the MBA still offers higher resolution and an SSD over the MBP. so, as far as other Macbooks are concerned, even if you don't care about weight, it can easily make perfect sense to go with the Air.

if you want to compare to PCs instead, that's a different story, but it's similar for the MBA or the MBP.

dman2011
Sep 26, 2011, 09:41 PM
well the asus just got its date released for america which is the 11th of october
hopefully some early reports come out before i make my decision although here in australia we are expecting november

Yebubbleman
Sep 26, 2011, 09:43 PM
but this is what i'm disagreeing with.

weight aside, the MBA still offers higher resolution and an SSD over the MBP. so, as far as other Macbooks are concerned, even if you don't care about weight, it can easily make perfect sense to go with the Air.

if you want to compare to PCs instead, that's a different story, but it's similar for the MBA or the MBP.

I definitely can't argue with the resolution disparity on the 13" machines (by the way, does anyone have ANY actual insight as to why this was?) and you can configure a 13" Pro to have an SSD drive that is just as fast; at that point, it's slightly pricier than the 13" MacBook Air (unless you just buy your own, in which case it's still cheaper), but you're getting a FireWire 800 port, Gigabit Ethernet, and an optical drive, which, for some, are good things to have. Don't get me wrong, SSDs are rad, but for a drive I can't anywhere near as easily replace with anywhere near as varied a selection of replacement drives, the novelty is only so much. Needless to say, this isn't the case with the standard form factor SSD drives you'd order in a 13" MacBook Pro.

kulimer
Sep 26, 2011, 09:53 PM
That's because thin and light are part of the MacBook Air's value. Obviously, a pick-up truck is a terrible value if you want a small commuter that is gas efficient. A small commuter that is gas efficient is a terrible value if you need towing capacity and cargo space.

Different needs, different products. To compare the MacBook Air to other computers that do not share it's primary value-added characteristics that are its weight and size is simply an exercise in futility.


On hardware: what's the cost of making it thin?
While I do agree that thin and light, but that is not an excuse to overprice. Again, several guys have talked about the term "overprice", I am going to use it carefully.

What is the actual cost of making it thin and light? Can someone explain that on the manufacture's end? Thinness has been the justification for high cost. I want to unveil this myth, hopefully from its very root.

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 09:53 PM
I definitely can't argue with the resolution disparity on the 13" machines (by the way, does anyone have ANY actual insight as to why this was?) and you can configure a 13" Pro to have an SSD drive that is just as fast; at that point, it's slightly pricier than the 13" MacBook Air, but you're getting a FireWire 800 port, Gigabit Ethernet, and an optical drive, which, for some, are good things to have.

yes. and i would gladly pay the extra $150 for the MBP with the SSD, IF the resolutions were equal. res is just absolutely critical for me. (for the moment, we're ignoring weight, though in this case, even though it does matter to me, i'd still go Pro for the CPU/RAM.)

why did the 13 MBP stay at 1280x800? i've never heard any explanation of this; i'd love to if anyone reading can point to one.

i think it would have meant a redesign of the panel, and they were looking to do just a 'guts' upgrade, and hold off on a chassis redesign for the next gen. however, this was a HUGE disappointment for so many people.

i waited for a really long time for the MBP to come out, precisely so i could get a 13 with 1440x900. when that failed to materialize, i started waiting for the next MBA. with the new CPUs, 4GB RAM, SSDs, and higher res displays, and the super lightweight as a bonus, i think these machines are great.

Poindexter333
Sep 26, 2011, 09:58 PM
"Does anybody remember laughter?" ~ Robert Plant

Let's be grown-ups here for a minute.

Whatever happened to:

1) Wow, that looks fantastic and works just like I want it to. It's a Mac, something I prefer over all others. That certainly can't be a shocking conclusion.

2) It can do everything that I require of a laptop, with no deal breakers (pro-graphics, NASA- math speed, huge storage, etc. I don't have to worry about squeezing the last fraction of a Ghz out of a processor.

3) I really want or need something smaller and lighter. Unibody is a huge plus too.

4) Who cares about a few hundred dollars? Some do. I don't. Thank god at this point in my life I don't have to worry over a few hundred bucks each way. What is my enjoyment and productivity worth anyway? Certainly not nothing. Plus I use it for business, so again, a portion of it comes off the top so to speak.

5) There are considerably more important things than mere numbers, as they can only describe the machine sitting there on a table, not what it's like under my hands doing actual tasks.

Doesn't everybody remember Moore's Law anyway? You can make yourself crazy worrying about things that are destined to change soon enough anyway.

Yebubbleman
Sep 26, 2011, 10:03 PM
Hardware
While I do agree that thin and light, but that is not an excuse to overprice. Again, several guys have talked about the term "overprice", I am going to use it carefully.

What is the actual cost of making it thin and light? Can someone explain that on the manufacture's end? This have been the justification for high cost. I want to unveil this myth, hopefully from its very root.

Actually, the MacBook Air in terms of what it is and what its price tag is, isn't a bad deal as evidenced by the trouble competitors and Intel are having with matching, let alone undercutting its price tag. If performance and speed and overall bang for buck/features/performance are what you're after, it's not a good buy. But if you're after an ultraportable laptop, it's a fantastic deal, if I have read and understood the news correctly.

yes. and i would gladly pay the extra $150 for the MBP with the SSD, IF the resolutions were equal. res is just absolutely critical for me. (for the moment, we're ignoring weight, though in this case, even though it does matter to me, i'd still go Pro for the CPU/RAM.)

why did the 13 MBP stay at 1280x800? i've never heard any explanation of this; i'd love to if anyone reading can point to one.

i think it would have meant a redesign of the panel, and they were looking to do just a 'guts' upgrade, and hold off on a chassis redesign for the next gen. however, this was a HUGE disappointment for so many people.

i waited for a really long time for the MBP to come out, precisely so i could get a 13 with 1440x900. when that failed to materialize, i started waiting for the next MBA. with the new CPUs, 4GB RAM, SSDs, and higher res displays, and the super lightweight as a bonus, i think these machines are great.

I don't think the panel would have to be redesigned all that much, it's just a glossy screen underneath the glass. But I hear ya, for a 13" screen, resolution can be mission critical; though I guess that's where external displays come in? But I suppose you could make the case that such a solution is inconvenient if I'm to also make a similar case saying that not having a FireWire 800 Port, an Ethernet Port, and an optical drive is also inconvenient.


"Does anybody remember laughter?" ~ Robert Plant

Let's be grown-ups here for a minute.

Whatever happened to:

1) Wow, that looks fantastic and works just like I want it to. It's a Mac, something I prefer over all others. That certainly can't be a shocking conclusion.

2) It can do everything that I require of a laptop, with no deal breakers (pro-graphics, NASA- math speed, huge storage, etc. I don't have to worry about squeezing the last fraction of a Ghz out of a processor.

3) I really want or need something smaller and lighter. Unibody is a huge plus too.

4) Who cares about a few hundred dollars? Some do. I don't. Thank god at this point in my life I don't have to worry over a few hundred bucks each way. What is my enjoyment and productivity worth anyway? Certainly not nothing. Plus I use it for business, so again, a portion of it comes off the top so to speak.

5) There are considerably more important things than mere numbers, as they can only describe the machine sitting there on a table, not what it's like under my hands doing actual tasks.

Doesn't everybody remember Moore's Law anyway? You can make yourself crazy worrying about things that are destined to change soon enough anyway.

Cool story, bro. A few hundred dollars is a lot for some. Congrats on being set in this terrible economy!

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 10:19 PM
I don't think the panel would have to be redesigned all that much, it's just a glossy screen underneath the glass.

yeah, i don't know. but the MBP uses a different panel than the MBA, with better color, etc. so, if they wanted to keep up the quality, they would have to find/commission new panels?


But I hear ya, for a 13" screen, resolution can be mission critical

for one thing, i don't like Apple's font smoothing. i find text almost unreadable on the 13 MBP. though it's not perfect on the higher res screens, it's much better. this is one of the big reasons i can't settle for a low res mac screen. but that's just me.

Dunbar
Sep 26, 2011, 10:27 PM
On Thinkpad
This one in particular is Thinkpad E220s for $775.20, (see link), the highlight I find are


The E220s has a glossy screen which I'd avoid like the plague. I'd personally wait for the X220 to go on sale. I'm a long time Thinkpad user who just moved from an X60s to a 13" MBA. One of my favorite features of the Thinkpad was the trackpoint (red eraser.) After test driving many MBA's in the store I decided the combo of hardware and multi touch gestures in OSX were worth the premium though. The gestures in OSX allow me to fly in OSX compared to a Thinkpad running Windows 7.

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 10:29 PM
The E220s has a glossy screen which I'd avoid like the plague. I'd personally wait for the X220 to go on sale. I'm a long time Thinkpad user who just moved from an X60s to a 13" MBA. One of my favorite features of the Thinkpad was the trackpoint (red eraser.) After test driving many MBA's in the store I decided the combo of hardware and multi touch gestures in OSX were worth the premium though. The gestures in OSX allow me to fly in OSX compared to a Thinkpad running Windows 7.

to me, software aside, the trackpad is THE defining feature of a Mac. i truly hope that the competition catches up, because its just too hard to give up that trackpad up leaving me with very little options.

p.s. i use a X61T, NO TRACKPAD!!! sadly, though i use it, me and the red nipple are enemies.

KPOM
Sep 26, 2011, 10:39 PM
On hardware: what's the cost of making it thin?
While I do agree that thin and light, but that is not an excuse to overprice. Again, several guys have talked about the term "overprice", I am going to use it carefully.

What is the actual cost of making it thin and light? Can someone explain that on the manufacture's end? Thinness has been the justification for high cost. I want to unveil this myth, hopefully from its very root.

It takes research and engineering to make sure the machines don't overheat. The first MacBook Airs back in 2008 had 1.6 and 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo processors that were notorious for shutting down cores or under clocking. Apple improved things a bit later in the year with the Penryn chip, but didn't really get it right until last October. The July 2011 version features a hotter processor, so the task is a bit more difficult. There's a reason that, until now, ultraportables were relatively underpowered. It isn't as easy to make a tiny machine as it is to make a bigger one where the engineers have room to work with.

We'll see how aggressive ASUS will be with their UX21 and UX31 in 15 days when they release them. My guess is that they will undercut the Airs by about $150-200 (if the purported prices in France are any indication - the €799 starting price for the 1.6GHz i5/4GB/64GB model being €150 less than Apple's price for the same configuration). Apple's margins are around 35% overall (very high for a tech company). However, the Airs are likely in the lower end of the range, while the MacBook Pros (particularly the 15" and 17") along with the iPhone and iPad lines are higher. I'm guessing ASUS will forego margin early on to try to get traction (they have learned from HP's experience with the Touchpad that simply matching Apple on pricing is a losing proposition), but I doubt we'll see much more aggressive pricing than that.

nebulos
Sep 26, 2011, 10:46 PM
The July 2011 version features a hotter processor, so the task is a bit more difficult.

the CPU is hotter, but it includes the IGP. so, while i don't think there was an increase in heat, since the CPU and IGP are now in the same spot, i believe there was an increase in heat density, which indeed presents a new challenge.

some jerk was eventually gonna come nitpick about this; i figured i'd take the blame. ;-)

Yebubbleman
Sep 27, 2011, 12:51 AM
the CPU is hotter, but it includes the IGP. so, while i don't think there was an increase in heat, since the CPU and IGP are now in the same spot, i believe there was an increase in heat density, which indeed presents a new challenge.

some jerk was eventually gonna come nitpick about this; i figured i'd take the blame. ;-)

I think in lieu of the GeForce 320M, by which I mean: in the exact same spot, is the Thunderbolt chip; though I could be getting its location mixed up with the location of the Cougar Point chip. You still have the same amount of heat coming off, you just have it coming off at different places than before and at different times. Meh.

MacinDoc
Sep 27, 2011, 01:14 AM
On hardware: what's the cost of making it thin?
While I do agree that thin and light, but that is not an excuse to overprice. Again, several guys have talked about the term "overprice", I am going to use it carefully.

What is the actual cost of making it thin and light? Can someone explain that on the manufacture's end? Thinness has been the justification for high cost. I want to unveil this myth, hopefully from its very root.
The cost is in the engineering, in more expensive parts, such as lower voltage processors, and in the cost of assembly, which will have much lower tolerances for error, and will likely result in a higher percentage of products being defective.

Just as a laptop cost more than a desktop with comparable power, an ultraportable will cost more than the laptop for the same reason.

ChrisA
Sep 27, 2011, 01:40 AM
I just bought a Mac Air 13", and saw the Lenovo website, Look at this, Lenovo is selling laptops for about $600...

Why care about the price if it can't run the software you want. You'd be stuck running MS Windows. Aperture will not run on the Lenovo, neither will Garage Band.

I did just buy a cheap $275 "notebook" Because all I wanted was good battery life and a web browser, nothing more. I put Linux on a way-cheap Dell. It pretty much matches the performance of a $600 notebook running Windows

kulimer
Sep 27, 2011, 01:45 AM
The cost is in the engineering, in more expensive parts, such as lower voltage processors, and in the cost of assembly, which will have much lower tolerances for error, and will likely result in a higher percentage of products being defective.

I most definitely agree the cost is engineering, and developers deserve their share of the profit. In fact, they are underpaid most of the time.

But back to what I asked in the last post, we need to answer "what is the actual cost in production?" in order to see if the product is being marked up. (This has been a very controversial question, tackle it with numbers or proofs to back it up)

And then, we will go back and look at how much the consumer is getting charged to decide if it is marked up.

And yes, I do believe Apple should make a profit.

MacinDoc
Sep 27, 2011, 02:15 AM
I most definitely agree the cost is engineering, and developers deserve their share of the profit. In fact, they are underpaid most of the time.

But back to what I asked in the last post, we need to answer "what is the actual cost in production?" in order to see if the product is being marked up. (This has been a very controversial question, tackle it with numbers or proofs to back it up)

And then, we will go back and look at how much the consumer is getting charged to decide if it is marked up.

And yes, I do believe Apple should make a profit.
Could you tell me which model you are comparing, so I can give you some details regarding differences in component costs?

KnightWRX
Sep 27, 2011, 04:21 AM
Reread what you quoted me saying. I say "unless weight and thinness matter to you", which doesn't imply that I think that the MacBook Air is stupid for everyone, just for people who don't care about the main things that the MacBook Air have going for it, namely weight and thinness. For those that want that in a computer, it's a great buy. For those that don't care and would be just as happy with a 13" MacBook Pro, it's a terrible buy.

And re-read my post. If you don't value the MacBook Air's characteristic, why are you even looking at it ? You shouldn't even be discussing it, it shouldn't even be on your mind. We're agreeing, but you're in this thread arguing about it. The point is simple :

Let this thread die. It makes no sense. It never made any sense. It was a thread made to flare up emotions and prompt responses.

----------

On hardware: what's the cost of making it thin?
While I do agree that thin and light, but that is not an excuse to overprice.

Citation Needed.

Please provide examples of other laptops that share the MacBook Air's characteristics (including it's weight and size) that are much cheaper than the MacBook Air.

Until then, the MBA is not overpriced. It's just not fit for your purpose. 6 pages in, you've been told and showed that many times. Just accept it or be welcome to my ignore list.

Others : Waste of time posting here guys, move along, this guy doesn't want to hear logic and arguments, he just wants to get you mad.