Thank you for my Vacine & Autism

[stubeeef]

After i got an email from a friend, I read the link, and it was interesting. i am not educated in the health industry and can not endorse or refute the findings. All of my children were vaccinated, and 2 are somewhat "different" but not enough for us to test............yet.

Link (http://www.mercola.com/2005/may/4/amish_autism.htm)Since they have been cut off for hundreds of years from American culture and scientific progress, the Amish may have had less exposure to some new factor triggering autism in the rest of population. The likely culprit: vaccines.

Traveling to the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch country in search of autistic Amish children, the reporter, based on national statistics, should have found as many as 200 children with autism in the community -- instead, he found only three, the oldest age 9 or 10:

The first autistic Amish child was a girl who had been brought over from China, adopted by one family only to be given up after becoming overwhelmed by her autism, and then re-adopted by an Amish Mennonite family. (China, India and Indonesia are among countries moving fast to mass-vaccination programs.)

The second autistic Amish child definitely had received a vaccination and developed autism shortly thereafter.

The reporter was unable to determine the vaccination status of the third child.

[PlaceofDis]

thats interesting, i'm sure further tests will have to be conducted, but its suspectalbe surely.... it will be interesting to see how this pans out

[flyfish29]

One reason why they suspect autism from vaccines is because the preservative in many vaccines containes mercury (or has contained mercury. There is a big push to get rid of it as a vaccine and I guess you can now request at most hospitals and clinics that you get one without mercury. I don't know the whole story, but know it sort of goes like that.

It is scary what we think is safe and we put into our bodies without questioning. Sort of like the fact they are now finding teflon chemicals in our bodies due to cookware among other things.

Another interesting side note: NO medical testing has been done until recently to determine if these chemicals, plastics, etc we use for food, toys, etc. are in fact being found in peoples bodies, etc. CA is starting to do tests of the general population to see how many of these nasty things leach into our bodies. Crazy that we are just now testing this fact. Many studies are just speculation...we speculate that cell phone use for extended time periods won't cause brain tumors...but we won't know for twenty years probably if it is true or not. Kind of like Cigarettes...we didn't know how bad they were for so long.

[rainman::|:|]

there are a plethora of other variables between an isolated community and the rest of society... the whole vaccination angle just has more than it's share of conspiracy theorists, so it takes the blame. While vaccinations themselves can (and have) cause adverse reactions in the general population, this is hardly enough to indict them in causing autism.

[crackpip]

Vaccines and autism was the subject of frequent arguments in my household in the past year as we were trying to decide how to vaccinate our newborn. For those who aren't parents, it's really one of the first scary times that you are unsure of what is best for your child in the long run.

The idea of the mercury in the vaccines is it is supposed to be in an inert compound, and there has been at least one study that shows no increased rates of autism compared to a control group. But, this (these) study(ies) is still in dispute. One problem is that the earliest autism can be detected is close to one of the times when Dr's like to give a bunch of vaccines in the standard time frame (around a year or so). This leads a lot of people to believe that vaccines caused their child's autism. Autism does seem to be on the rise, and the cause has not been found.

Another interesting thing I found was that a lot of the vaccines they are giving today, have only begun to be administered within the last decade or so. It makes you wonder if vaccines are being over used like antibiotics. For example, they vaccinate for Chicken Pox now. Of course some of the vaccines are for dangerous infections, but these infections are very rare.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of these studies, and hopefully if autism is indeed on the rise, a cause can be found.

crackpip

[Earendil]

Coming from a Medical family I'd like to voice an opinion on the subject.
The choice between a proven vaccination for a life saving/threatening disease, or not taking one to avoid the unproven "risk" of getting autism is ridicules.

My dad, a medical doctor, gets agitated by these studies not because they may be correct, or because someone shouldn't look into it and improve the vaccinations if something is found, but because the unproven RISK of getting autism is still far below the possibility of getting the disease these vaccinations protect you from. These unproven studies are blown way out of proportion by the media, causing families to come to him questions getting any vaccinations at all!

It's like not getting a polio vaccine because there is a slight chance of actually getting polio from the vaccine. But guess what, you run a higher risk of getting polio if you DON'T take the vaccine, so it's worth it.

Now wether you think you child needs a chicken pox vaccine is up to you :rolleyes:
We all had to suffer, I say let the kid enjoy the experience ;)

~Earendil

[Jaffa Cake]

There's been an ongoing debate on this side of the Atlantic over the MMR (Measles Mumps Rubella) vaccine which has been linked to autism in youngsters. The Government denies any link but it's led to many concerned parents not getting their children immunised, which in turn has seen a dramatic rise in cases of mumps.

More information here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3643676.stm)

[JesseJames]

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

[wdlove]

I truly hope that your children will progress normally, stubeeef.

There are just so many variables, that it will be hard to determine the risk. As mentioned getting the vaccine is important to prevent known devastating diseases. In life nothing is 100% safe, there are always risks. Medicine is more of an art than science.

[admanimal]

This does not sound like a very scientific study. You can't go looking for people with autism and then ask whether they have been vaccinated. You have to look for people who have been vaccinated and ask if they have autism. This doesn't mean there can't be a link; it just means that this study does not prove it.

[MongoTheGeek]

The most recent things I have heard is that there a strong genetic component. It seems that the children of engineers, especially of 2 engineers.

Part of the problem with the correlations with immunization is that over time diagnostic criteria have changed. Mild cases of autism have been written off as normal.

There are treatments to help minimize the effect of autism available now. Additionally the world seems to be growing towards a place where autism won't be a detriment.

Good luck to you and the children.

[Jovian9]

I have been working with children (and some teens and adults) with autism for about 6 years now. I have met many families who claim their children were "normal" prior to these vaccines, but developed autism afterwards. I believe that a parent knows their child better than any doctor ever could, and if they say that this occurred after a vaccine, then I am inclined to believe them. This is definitely a scary issue and it should be a higher priority for our government (and the world) to research.

[pigwin32]

I have been working with children (and some teens and adults) with autism for about 6 years now. I have met many families who claim their children were "normal" prior to these vaccines, but developed autism afterwards. I believe that a parent knows their child better than any doctor ever could, and if they say that this occurred after a vaccine, then I am inclined to believe them. This is definitely a scary issue and it should be a higher priority for our government (and the world) to research.
It's an issue fraught with any number of issues and many opinions on both sides masquerading as fact. We had assumed we would take a quick scan through the literature to feel confident we were making the right choice and then go ahead and vaccinate our boys. What we found was far from reassuring. First of all vaccines do not have the same stringent testing regimes that any other drug is required by law to pass before being sold.

In New Zealand right now there is a campaign to immunise all children and young adults against a strain of meningococcal disease. The vaccine has been rushed into service with little real or apparent testing and a quick google reveals some interesting (http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2005/02/07/investigation_shows_chiron_officials_in_nz_vaccine_meningococcal_gold_rush.htm) information (http://www.ias.org.nz/press_release_new_meningococcal_vaccine_may_increase_risk_to_children.htm). The official site (http://www.immunise.moh.govt.nz/MeNZB.html) provides a different picture.

Immunisation is a polarising issue but from my experience, those who choose not to immunise do so because they have actually looked at the available information. Those who choose to immunise do so because they believe it's the right thing to do. The anti-immunisation lobby provide references to support their position, the pro-immunisation lobby rely on scare tactics and misinformation. My advice is to read as much as you possibly can, it's basically about informed choice. And definitely stay away from vaccines that use mercury as a preservative.

[rainman::|:|]

They just announced an early test for autism (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=23937) that may detect it in children as young as newborns... Kind of blows this whole vaccine theory apart, since the children are just born. Unless the claim is that parental vaccinations were the culprit, and that doesn't hold weight in places like industrialized Asia, where you see a lot of autism but vaccinations are a more recent phenomenon.

Get your kids vaccinated. They still don't know what causes autism.

[Maedus]

I think part of the fact that more cases of autism are detected is because people don't really understand what autism is or only recognize it by extreme cases rather than the more common cases. I had to google it while writing this post in order to refresh myself into what it truly means to have autism. Just to pull a quote for those who aren't sure and who, like me, stumbled on this thread out of curiosity:

Autism is a complex developmental disability that typically appears during the first three years of life. The result of a neurological disorder that affects the functioning of the brain, autism impacts the normal development of the brain in the areas of social interaction and communication skills. Children and adults with autism typically have difficulties in verbal and non-verbal communication, social interactions, and leisure or play activities.

Doing a little bit of reading on the subject, I am curious if autism seems more common now simply because we're better at recognizing it instead of simply accepting it? Or, I hope is not the case, we simply want to declare children autistic in order to use it as an excuse for doping up kids; there couldn't be that many kids with ADD that needed ritalin. But I feel it is probably the former instead of the later. I think that we are simply better at diagnosing mental disorders; especially ones we didn't know about until 1943. I think we are moving away from simply saying "that person is a little odd" and towards having an actual understanding in why this person seems "a little odd" to us.

I have no idea if there is a correlation between vaccines and having autism though the Autism Society of America seems to suggest that there may be a variety of environmental factors that may help in triggering autism, and though it did not seem to endorse the idea that MMR vaccines might be triggering cases of autism, it does point out that there needs to be a lot more research done on the possible triggering factors for autism.

As for investigating vaccines before giving them to your children, that is a good idea, but one should be wary of the information they research and try to focus on medical and scholarly debates on the subject. I would even be wary of organizations that are associated with the subject and are arguing for or against something since they may have an agenda that they are pushing on the topic, such as a pro or anti-vaccine stance, that is supported more by the leaders of the organization's beliefs than by facts.

And as for the article, the only informative value it has is that it piqued some people's interests on the subject. The information from the article seems to conflict directly with basic information given from the ASA (Autism Society of America). The ASA cites the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in that autism affects 1 in 250 whereas the article states its 1 in 166, a fairly large discrepancy. But more the fact that it was a "reporter" that went to investigate autism in the amish community and not a medical doctor. I see no credentials supporting this person's ability to diagnose autism and I doubt he has any; especially since when you read the Washington Times articles linked at the bottom, you find out the reporter is Dan Olmsted (http://about.upi.com/journalists/dan_olmsted.jlst) who is a journalist for United Press International. And I didn't see why it was significant to mention "the oldest age 9 or 10" as if the amish magically correct autism at age 11, but that is more a statement that raised my "something isn't right" flag than anything. The article composed by Dr. Mercola from the Washington Times stories is created simply to promote Mercola's ideas and probably also to make money.

As for this being evidence of a correlation between vaccines and autism; if we read the linked Washington Times articles, the reporter is only acting on hearsay about other autism cases and also on their relation to vaccines since he only investigated the parent with the adopted chinese child.

The amish are also a terrible sample population and especially a terrible control population to use as evidence to support connections between vaccines and autism. If the amish truly do not suffer from autism, a disorder who's cause is likely genetic based, then it would more likely be that they do not have the genetic triggers in their genes; a possibility since they descend from a very small genetic heritage due to their closed community and the limited population that they originate from. This possibility is pointed out in the Washington Times article but not by Mercola. But more than likely, autism simply goes undiagnosed in amish communities. It wasn't until 1943 that autism was even really given a name. And honestly, I have trouble imagining a community that values their privacy allowing a reporter, a stranger, to analyze and attempt to diagnose all the members of their community, especially their children. Especially since I'm a part of society and I can't even see myself letting a reporter attempt to diagnose me or my (potential) children for autism (or for anything for that matter). And this appears to be correct since reading the Dan Olmsted articles shows that he was only able to meet with the more open amish community instead of the traditional amish and that even then, most of his info is hearsay from the one couple that he interviewed.

The article created by Dr. Mercola is pure fear mongering used to promote his agenda, which only demonstrates that you can find people on either side that use fear to drive their agenda. The articles from the Washington Times are shoddy reporting used to create a headline to sell some papers. Dan Olmsted, the reporter does not use any scientific methodology in DISproving his argument but instead went out to find a cause for autism and stopped when he "found" it. It is mediocre journalism; a far cry from scientific or medical proof. Olmsted seems as educated on the subject of autism as myself, which I admitted earlier was just some information gleaned off a quick google search and some reading off of the Autism Society of America.

I would recommend that people worried about vaccines do some real research on the subject from credible MEDICAL doctors (I never saw an MD appended to Dr. Mercola's name, so he could have a doctorate in BS for all we know) and from scientific and medical journals as opposed to .com websites. Talking to your doctor would also help and it wouldn't hurt to ask another doctor too since no doctor knows it all. If you have access to a specialist on autism itself or on Pervasive Developmental Disorders, then he would be the best person to talk to.

As for Dr. Mercola, he reminds me of a medical version of Paul Thurrott and especially of John Dvorak. Each of them are known and published (and to some, respected even :eek: :p ) computer/tech commentators. Yet I would only trust Thurrott, on tech advice, as far as I could throw him since he basically parrots whatever he hears from Microsoft. I would only trust Dvorak as far as I could kick him (preferably down a flight of stairs) since Dvorak concerns himself with totally unresearched and inflammatory articles. Each may hit on a fact every once in a while (Thurrott more than Dvorak) but neither will have done so though unbiased and educated means.

[asphalt-proof]

I believe that the reason(s) the diagnosis of autism is on the rise is 1: We have finer diagnostic tools to assess children for it. and 2. Parents are more aware of autism and its symptoms. Parents are also more educated about about child development. When their child deviates from that developmental arc, they begin to worry and to look for answers. This is a fairly recent cultural phenomenon.

Keep in mind that autism falls under the Pervasive Developmental Disorder label and is part of a larger spectrum. WHile there is a Autistic label, there are also, Rett's disorder, Aspergers, Childhood Disintegrative Disorder, and then the catchall PDD not otherwise specified. THis is important to note because Autism is not really a discrete mental health disorder, but part of a continuum that measures social interaction, cognitive capacity, and communication skills among other indicators.

I think the reason people are inclined to link vaccines with autism is most children begin to show stereotypical symptoms of autism at ages 3-5. Either during or right after they recieve most of their immunizations. Though, by defination, onset has to be prior to age 3.

Also, I don't THINK that they use mercury as part of vaccines anymore. For some reason it sticks out in my mind that this part of the theory as been debunked. But I don't remember where I heard/read it so no citation. Sorry.

I work as a school psychologist and have done extensive work with children with autism and I have attend numerous professional conferences about this topic. The experts on autism do not know what causes it. So far the evidence points to a genetic component.

As far vaccinations go: These have been a whipping boy for conspiracy theorist for some time. My belief is that the vaccine-autism link is just more tinfoil hat thinking by part of a very small but vocal group of anti-government people. I say this from experience. When in grad school, I met this guy at school. We talked awhile and invited he and his wife over for dinner one night. They came and then showed all this literature about the link between vaccines and shorten life-spans, increase chances of depression/ anxiety etc. THen he said that we couldn't tell anyone about this because the gov't was trying to suppress this information. They would imprison or kill anyone who gave this out because it would foil their plot in making us their willing sheep. My wife and I told them that was fine then ended the evening as politely as we could.

[jsw]

...
All wonderful points. Well said.

We are wired to see patterns. Often this leads us to draw conclusions which aren't correct. It amazes me that parents consider unproven speculation as a reason to avoid vaccines, which are proven. Of course, for parents of a young child, the emotional but flawed arguments can be compelling, and often such parents aren't exactly fully caught up on their sleep and tend not to always make the most rational of decisions.

[emw]

It amazes me that parents consider unproven speculation as a reason to avoid vaccines, which are proven. Of course, for parents of a young child, the emotional but flawed arguments can be compelling, and often such parents aren't exactly fully caught up on their sleep and tend not to always make the most rational of decisions.
Also, many parents don't bother to follow up on the details - they see an article in the paper or a story on the news and it becomes the gospel for them. While many of us are not qualified to understand all of the literature on the subject, it can help to read up on various points of view and consider the alternatives to not getting a vaccine.

Most of us do more research on our next car or next Mac than we do on anything related to our kids.

[crackpip]

Also, many parents don't bother to follow up on the details - they see an article in the paper or a story on the news and it becomes the gospel for them. While many of us are not qualified to understand all of the literature on the subject, it can help to read up on various points of view and consider the alternatives to not getting a vaccine.

Most of us do more research on our next car or next Mac than we do on anything related to our kids.

Just because people disagree with the government does not mean they didn't do any research. There is a lot of conflicting information out there, and doctors are not all united. Most posts in this thread have oversimplified the issue, too.

The choice to vaccinate is not an all or nothing choice. Each individual vaccine needs to be researched and weighed. All vaccines have documented risks, and some of those documented risks were at one time undocumented. Children die from getting vaccines, and there is real concern of further undocumented effects of certain vaccines. The question is whether the risk of your child have a bad reaction to the vaccine outweighs the risk of having your child contract the disease, some of which may be incredibly rare in your country or which are easily treatable.

Here is a transcript of the testimony of one doctor on the HIB vaccine, current US policy is pushing to have all children given this vaccination.
Testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources (http://nyvic.org/nyvic/health/hep-b/waisbren.htm)

Also, keep in mind that vaccines usually only protect against a single strain. This year's flu shots for example didn't contain the most commonly contracted flu strain. So all the people who went out and got a flu vaccine were not protected against the most common strain "going around". The meningitis vaccine only protects against one or two specific viruses that cause meningitis. It does not protect your child against meningitis.

Finally, besides vaccines, there are many other cases of medical science not being fully aware of the consequences of their practices, such as the over-prescription of antibiotics, the belief that sexuality is learned, etc. So let's not pretend that medical science is infallible.

crackpip

[emw]

Just because people disagree with the government does not mean they didn't do any research.
That wasn't my point at all. I was simply saying that panic tends to spread because many people rely on the news agencies to give them their opinions, as opposed to researching the issues themselves. There may be plenty of reason to doubt the effectiveness or question the safety of certain vaccines - but let's not do it because the 10 o'clock news told us to.

[aloofman]

I have been working with children (and some teens and adults) with autism for about 6 years now. I have met many families who claim their children were "normal" prior to these vaccines, but developed autism afterwards. I believe that a parent knows their child better than any doctor ever could, and if they say that this occurred after a vaccine, then I am inclined to believe them. This is definitely a scary issue and it should be a higher priority for our government (and the world) to research.

Further research is a good idea, but there's no scientific basis for a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. There's a similar debate in the dentistry field about whether the mercury-based amalgam used in tooth fillings causes health problems. Obviously it would be a good idea if it didn't use mercury, but there have been no conditions linked to it so far.

It doesn't help that parents of autistic children google the subject and the first thing they find are vaccine conspiracy theories. For these parents it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. More seriously, for that doctor to claim that the link is a fact based on that dubious study raises questions about his credentials. It's one thing to worry about the possible risks of a vaccine, but to claim a link that hasn't been proven is irresponsible.

[crackpip]

That wasn't my point at all. I was simply saying that panic tends to spread because many people rely on the news agencies to give them their opinions, as opposed to researching the issues themselves. There may be plenty of reason to doubt the effectiveness or question the safety of certain vaccines - but let's not do it because the 10 o'clock news told us to.

Yeah, sorry, I should have quoted the same post you did. The post by jsw, (which seems to have disappeared) and a number of previous posts, by Earendil, Maedus, etc., are overly dismissive, using the idea that many people don't think for themselves or are incapable of doing research to lend credence to their opinion. Although in their defense, I am talking about a more general view on vaccinations, while they are talking more specifically about the tenuous-at-best autism link.

I don't disagree that it happens and that many people are generally lazy about doing such research. But, people not doing research happens on all sides of debate. Doctors fall prey to it, too. The point does not lend any credence to the ideas that all vaccines are good.

crackpip

[arn]

I have been working with children (and some teens and adults) with autism for about 6 years now. I have met many families who claim their children were "normal" prior to these vaccines, but developed autism afterwards. I believe that a parent knows their child better than any doctor ever could, and if they say that this occurred after a vaccine, then I am inclined to believe them. This is definitely a scary issue and it should be a higher priority for our government (and the world) to research.

While it might appear like that... it may simply be timing vs causality.

Let's say most teen pregnancy happens at age 16-17. Most teens get their drivers license at age 16. does that mean drivers licences cause pregnancy?

as for the amish thing... maybe electricty causes autism... why don't people stop using electrical devices?

arn

[Don't panic]

After i got an email from a friend, I read the link, and it was interesting. i am not educated in the health industry and can not endorse or refute the findings. All of my children were vaccinated, and 2 are somewhat "different" but not enough for us to test............yet.

Link (http://www.mercola.com/2005/may/4/amish_autism.htm)

Stu, I hope everything turns out great with our kids.

But don't give too much credit to self-professed experts and their "scientific" studies, such as the one referred here. (Especially from sites that mix decent dietary suggestion with total bs like miracle pills, EFT and the like).

The aetiology of autism is still not well understood, and probably both genetic and environmental causes factor in. One of them, thimerosal (an organic mercury compound) is/has been used as a preservative at various concentration in some (not all) vaccine formulations. There is some epidemiological evidence of connections between its use and the increased *RISK* to develop different neurological disorders, including autism. The value of this evidence is being heatedly debated in the field.

that said, as thimerosal-free [my edit] vaccines are available (and used), it would be obviously prudent for clinicians to use those instead and to develop safer vaccines (and thimerosal has/is being phased out in the US).
What would NOT be prudent, is not to use vaccines altogether, because that would dramatically increase the chances for an unhealty life for the kids missing the vaccinations and for the people around them (anybody is safer in all-vaccinated environment -herd protection-).

As far as the amish "study" itself, it's borderline charlatanism. The original article is anedoctal, biased and non-scientific in many ways, but it's a newspaper article, not a scientific paper so it's not required to be as thorough.
It's the website take that is annoyingly deceitful, because it presents the reporter unproven perspective as proof. Even if a serious, peer-reviewed study would find that autism incidence is indeed lower in the amish population (and such studies should be done), there could be a very large number of more likely reasons for this, including genetic, dietary, environmental, social, cultural causes. To single out vaccines in this mix, at this point is ridiculous. The Amish are a genetically and culturally isolated population, which shows a clear acknowledged unbalance in the frequency of genetic diseases and very peculiar cultural characteristics when compared to the general population, to infer a link with a single social variable with no controls whatsoever is scientifically ludricrous and (in the context of people that might choose to avoid vaccination in an urban environment) possibly criminal.
In other words, the author's "proof" that vaccines "cause" autism, also "proves" that the lack of vaccination "causes" a score of genetic diseases that have higher frequency in amish families or indeed that driving buggies "prevents" autism.

[Maedus]

Yeah, sorry, I should have quoted the same post you did. The post by jsw, (which seems to have disappeared) and a number of previous posts, by Earendil, Maedus, etc., are overly dismissive, using the idea that many people don't think for themselves or are incapable of doing research to lend credence to their opinion. Although in their defense, I am talking about a more general view on vaccinations, while they are talking more specifically about the tenuous-at-best autism link.

I don't disagree that it happens and that many people are generally lazy about doing such research. But, people not doing research happens on all sides of debate. Doctors fall prey to it, too. The point does not lend any credence to the ideas that all vaccines are good.

crackpip

I wasn't trying to foster the idea that people don't think for themselves or are incapable of doing research, but instead I was trying to help give tips in how to find more reliable information instead of being hyped into a panic attack by .com medicine. If it came off that way, its not what I intended, but I wrote it while in the process of waking up, and so I apologize for any unclarity on my behalf.

Stubeef, if you think your children are "different" after the vaccine, you should tell your doctor about it and have him give them a check up. It is probably nothing and I hope that is the case, but if it isn't, it is always best to discover problems as soon as possible. Especially since it might be some other adverse reaction to the vaccine (or some reaction to some other environmental factor that you weren't aware of) that might be affecting your children negatively. It could be that the vaccine is making them ill and less responsive and is a normal side effect. I would not know and the only way you're going to feel at ease if you have somebody who's graduated med school, is practicing medicine, and knows your children personally, examine them and determine if anything is wrong. And again, I hope everything is great for them and that they are just having some temporary reaction to the vaccines. And if your doctor says nothing is wrong and you still have worries, get a second opinion from another doctor.

[pigwin32]

All wonderful points. Well said.

We are wired to see patterns. Often this leads us to draw conclusions which aren't correct. It amazes me that parents consider unproven speculation as a reason to avoid vaccines, which are proven. Of course, for parents of a young child, the emotional but flawed arguments can be compelling, and often such parents aren't exactly fully caught up on their sleep and tend not to always make the most rational of decisions.
This is equally valid for both points of view, the anti-immunisation lobby have to work harder to overcome the emotionally charged arguments of the pro- lobby. I have watched a very disturbing video on the effects of diseases such as whooping cough, measles, and polio on children. It discussed in length the size of each virus and showed what each virus looked like under a microscope, constantly used medical terms without explanation, and showed graphic video footage of children affected by the diseases. At the end of the video the principal sponsor for the production of the video was a large drug company. I naturally assumed that the video was for training doctors on the diseases. Actually the video was targeted at parents.

[pigwin32]

As far vaccinations go: These have been a whipping boy for conspiracy theorist for some time. My belief is that the vaccine-autism link is just more tinfoil hat thinking by part of a very small but vocal group of anti-government people. I say this from experience. When in grad school, I met this guy at school. We talked awhile and invited he and his wife over for dinner one night. They came and then showed all this literature about the link between vaccines and shorten life-spans, increase chances of depression/ anxiety etc. THen he said that we couldn't tell anyone about this because the gov't was trying to suppress this information. They would imprison or kill anyone who gave this out because it would foil their plot in making us their willing sheep. My wife and I told them that was fine then ended the evening as politely as we could.
Your experience with one individual has obviously coloured your thinking with respect to the issue. Just because a crackpot says it's so doesn't mean it ain't so.

[MongoTheGeek]

This is equally valid for both points of view, the anti-immunisation lobby have to work harder to overcome the emotionally charged arguments of the pro- lobby. I have watched a very disturbing video on the effects of diseases such as whooping cough, measles, and polio on children. It discussed in length the size of each virus and showed what each virus looked like under a microscope, constantly used medical terms without explanation, and showed graphic video footage of children affected by the diseases. At the end of the video the principal sponsor for the production of the video was a large drug company. I naturally assumed that the video was for training doctors on the diseases. Actually the video was targeted at parents.

Looking at commercials targeted at adults i figure you need something that looks targeted at 5 year olds. cf Digger the Dermaphrodite (sp?) and The Big Phlegm ball from the cough pill commercial.

They just teased a story saying there may be a blood test for autism now.

[Rod Rod]

The anti-immunisation lobby provide references to support their position, the pro-immunisation lobby rely on scare tactics and misinformation.
It was a pretty balanced post until this statement.

The anti-immunization lobby relies on scare tactics and misinformation and the pro-immunization lobby provides references to support their position. For example, polio vaccine is very well researched and documented. In contrast, the supposed link between vaccination and autism is very weak. I agree that this link needs to be researched, but at the same time it has not yet been established by scientific standards.

[ziwi]

If the vaccines were 100% to blame then the majority of us would be autistic. I certantly believe that it may be a contributing factor. Let's thow this one out there - maybe autism is a result of the the combination of vaccines and the use of dairy in the childs diet. Most dairy is filled with antibiotics and hormones for cows and we injest it - it is also a food that small children of vaccination age consume - they would probably be on babyfood still so I am discounting the same contributing factors from it.

It may also be a factor that the medical profession is recognizing it more - before it may have been just people brining in the worst cases and maybe lighter cases are being diagnosed.

Point is that unless there is a 100% correlation between the vaccines and the autism - why scare people out of providing a potentially lifesaving treatment to their child?

I struggled with this for my 2 children and know someone who has an autistic child - most of his research found some links to vaccines, but he modified their diets to be all natural and whole foods and has seen progress in their child - he has 2 and one is autistic and the other is not - both went through the same vaccination plan. THe benefit of the new diet is the progress in his child and the fact that now weight falls off of him - which he contributes to the lack of hormones and chemical additives.

[pigwin32]

It was a pretty balanced post until this statement.

The anti-immunization lobby relies on scare tactics and misinformation and the pro-immunization lobby provides references to support their position. For example, polio vaccine is very well researched and documented. In contrast, the supposed link between vaccination and autism is very weak. I agree that this link needs to be researched, but at the same time it has not yet been established by scientific standards.
Did you even bother following any of the links I posted previously? In NZ we are being told there is an meningococcal epidemic and all children must be vaccinated to protect them from this terrible disease. Even a small amount of research will show the supposed epidemic has been in decline for some time now, and the strain of the disease being targeted accounts for less than 40% of cases in Auckland. Go take a look at immunisation awareness (http://www.ias.org.nz/press_release_new_meningococcal_vaccine_may_increase_risk_to_children.htm), hardly scare tactics and misinformation.

[stubeeef]

Thanks for the kind words of hope gang.

I don't want to miss lead anyone, my children are not autistic, or even close, might have a slight LD issue with 2, probably got it from me.

I don't put credence in any single announcement, so I am not following or promoting this at all, just throwing it out on the table for discussion. I know there is a diverse crowd here and some extremely bright professionals with good info for us all.

My children are all vacinated, but just like a new OS or update, I waited one year (or there abouts-been 8 yrs) on the chicken pox vacine to see the broad effects before allowed my first born to get the vaccine. I am not one that is quick to adopt cutting edge medical products, something I got from years in the military and those lovely anthrax vacines! ( i was able to avoid those! happily)

I have found that you must arm yourself with as much info on all medical matters as possible. You may be lucky and get fabulous advice, but I have found the opposite. Here is an example.

With our 3rd child my wife got a call that the blood screening during pregnantcy indicated a chance that our child would be trisomy 13 (http://medgen.genetics.utah.edu/photographs/pages/trisomy_13.htm) . Well after the uncontrolled crying of my wife, a lady that called would not talk to me cause I was not carrying the baby, my wife kept putting the phone down to cry. Well guess what, that screening has so many variables based on general population info that they might have also said there was a chance of her being Einstien.
Then my wife got a virus while pregnant, called fifths disease (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/parvovirus/B19.htm) . Well with the trisomy thang and the fifth disease problem we started to get very worried about our baby. Now my wife would never choose an abortion-so for you out there thinking about this-please read to the end.
Well, they wanted to do an amnio (http://health.ivillage.com/gyno/gynoreprohealth/0,,6djc,00.html?iv_arrivalSA=1&iv_cobrandRef=0&iv_arrival_freq=1&pba=adid=16094008) to see if the baby had the trisomy problem. Now things get interesting, I was knowledgeable enough to know that an amnio can (not often) cause a miscarriage. So I asked 3 different doctors over a 2 day period what the odd of a miscarriage were, (I am not making this up, as in HeeHaw 'truth is stranger than fiction") I got 3 different answers ( they were all obgyn's in the same practice) the answers I got were 1 in 300, 2 in 300, 3 in 300. Ok so I got the feeling it was low, but possible. Now the next question is, if the baby has trisomy is there anything we can do to "cure" or help her by knowing it from the amnio. Answer-NO. Well why do it? If you want to abort. (Notice if you don't ask no one will tell you, you just go get an amnio) So we could get peace of mind or horrors, either way my wife would not abort, and the amnio would increase the odds of losing a possibly wonderful child. So what to do?
I am very lucky, I have a cousin in Charleston who is a pre-natal surgeon, he told me the condition manifests itself with a heart problem most often. So he hooked my up with a Dr who happen to be a world renown fetal heart sonographer who worked at Wake Forest Baptist hospital in my home town (luck again) who after the sonography said "no problem with that baby and trisomy". But the fifths disease could cause other issues (can't remember them now).
What I want those reading this to understand is; know what you will and won't do, know what and why you are having a test BEFORE you have it, UNDERSTAND the consequences of each test and procedure BEFORE you have it-don't blindly do it cause some Dr said to. We could have had an amnio to see if our baby had trisomy based on a VERY LAME screening and had a miscarriage of my perfectly healthy 6 yr old Miranda Grace.
BECAREFUL AND WEARY, BE YOUR BEST ADVOCATE-CAUSE SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT NOT BE.
Sorry for the length of this, but it still burns me up, that we might have had lost our daughter that I discribe as "the nicest person I know" to our friends.
Here is our beautiful Miranda at 4 yrs old, she is 6 now.

[MongoTheGeek]

Sorry for the length of this, but it still burns me up, that we might have had lost our daughter that I discribe as "the nicest person I know" to our friends.
Here is our beautiful Miranda at 4 yrs old, she is 6 now.

She looks just like you :)

I pulled the bulk of your narrative. Doctors are dummasses. I've dealt with enough of them. They tend to be overly aggressive in testing and treatments often making things worse or going on hunts for odd things.

6 months ago I had a cat scan turn up a bit funny and my liver panel had an enzyme insanely out of whack. I asked the doctor about the liver panel and he told me that it might be Non-Alcoholic Steato-Hepatitis and then said it could be other things. Liver damage is not out of reason so I had some real concerns.

He didn't tell me that enzyme is the first thing to go out of whack with any liver irratation and that the fatty deposits showing up in my liver (caused most likely by being 100# over weight at the time and by the various things that might cause liver damage) were probably enough. I got tests for a half dozen different metal concentrations, hep a b c and k?

After going to my GP and spending a bunch of time on Google I realized that it was almost entirely pointless. Even if there was something wrong most things weren't fixable or the fix was to loose weight.

[stubeeef]

She looks just like you :)

I pulled the bulk of your narrative. Doctors are dummasses. I've dealt with enough of them. They tend to be overly aggressive in testing and treatments often making things worse or going on hunts for odd things.

6 months ago I had a cat scan turn up a bit funny and my liver panel had an enzyme insanely out of whack. I asked the doctor about the liver panel and he told me that it might be Non-Alcoholic Steato-Hepatitis and then said it could be other things. Liver damage is not out of reason so I had some real concerns.

He didn't tell me that enzyme is the first thing to go out of whack with any liver irratation and that the fatty deposits showing up in my liver (caused most likely by being 100# over weight at the time and by the various things that might cause liver damage) were probably enough. I got tests for a half dozen different metal concentrations, hep a b c and k?

After going to my GP and spending a bunch of time on Google I realized that it was almost entirely pointless. Even if there was something wrong most things weren't fixable or the fix was to loose weight.

Funny, had a similar issue with a Life Insurance physical (bought a million plus after a good buddy died suddenly with cancer). They said my liver had some enzyme too high. I took the results to my Navy flt surgeon who lol, he said twice that number of that enzyme would be meaningless. I got the insurance at the reduced rate, but at first it scared the crap out me, I abused alcohol to the limit in college and up to 30yrs old.

[GFLPraxis]

*raises hand*

I'm autistic. Asperger's, to be precise.

I was vaccinated as well. It's a possibility that that was the cause.

[MongoTheGeek]

*raises hand*

I'm autistic. Asperger's, to be precise.

I was vaccinated as well. It's a possibility that that was the cause.

There is something that I ahve wanted to ask. How are forums for you? Are they a good/better form of social interaction? Do computers make you feel more normal ie having everyone at the same level?

[oldschool]

there are a plethora of other variables between an isolated community and the rest of society... the whole vaccination angle just has more than it's share of conspiracy theorists, so it takes the blame. While vaccinations themselves can (and have) cause adverse reactions in the general population, this is hardly enough to indict them in causing autism.



that was the first thing i thought of when i opened the link. the amount of genetic variability is decreased in amish communities. also people have to look at the risks/benefits of vaccines. i mean even if it is proven to increase the incidence of autism, we should look at the increase in premature death without them.

[flyfish29]

As I understand it the mercury is only used as a preservative and not for the actual vaccine- I also understand that we can get the same vaccine without the mercury. I don't know what it does to storage, but it is possible as I understand.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Vaccines have been a lightening rod for many over the years.

On some basis, some vaccines do require a good looking at (some of which our military are required to receive) for their effectiveness and for future ramifications.

I know that is not quite the same, but many years ago i was told that each form of technology has its own pollution. Autism may be a "pollution" provided by the "technology".

At the same time we need to look at the real numbers of those that may have been saved through vaccines, and the countless lives lost or hurt by not doing them. A "cost-benefit analysis" if you will.

[devman]

Hey Stubeef,

this is a good thread. Lots of commonsense advice in it.

There's also been recent studies that do not support the link from vaccines to autism.

Here's just two links, but I know there are more. http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/39/8/54 http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/515304.html

Clearly a big part of the rise in the number of cases is the much better awareness and detection methods these days plus the FAR broader classifcations that now exist. There's a very, very broad range of conditions that fall under an Autism Spectrum Disorder. These include typical Autism, Aspergers, Semantic Pragmatic Disorder, and others such as the wonderful catch-all of PDDNOS (pervasive developmental disorder - not specific).

Take care.

[.Andy]

For anyone after information on anything medical like this I would suggest that you do a quick search on PUBMED (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Pager&DB=pubmed) long before you turn to Google. This represents a wealth of peer-reviewed papers on any subject you need such as vaccines and autism. The database includes the abstracts of pretty much every medical paper published so you can read up on what's bothering you. If in doubt speak with you doctor or a medical professional whose opinion you trust - not a newspaper article that is not referenced. Remember the main goal of newspapers is to sell advertisments.

The overwhelming data is that the vaccines that are recommended for your kids are good for them. In the end it is your choice however, so make it an informed one. Every single drug or vaccine you take has side effects. This can range from rashes, fever, or in extreme cases death. No one will deny this. From aspirin right down to the small pox vaccine everything has adverse effects. With vaccines for our kids in every case they are at far less risk of the side effects than they are of the diseases these protect against.

It is most likely that the causes of autism are multifactorial. If one element as common as vaccination was causing autism it would be blatantly obvious not only to medical researchers but also to the general public. A researcher would be famous and rich overnight if they could make such a certain link. Just remember you could easily say that everyone who has autism has drunk water from copper pipes....One plausible contributor is the age at which women are giving birth - across the developed world this is increasing as couples choose careers/lifestyle/security etc before having children. We know this is the case with Down Syndrome. It could also be that we are just better at detecting mild autism as has been mentioned which we are undoubtably are. Some types of autism are caused by genetic problems which occur during the early development of the embryo - it could also be due to problems with the sperm or egg. These are set down long before vaccination comes into play.

If you'd like to find out the cause for certain or for it to be available when your kids have your grandchildren, how about you donate a few dollars to your local university/hospital research units who are looking into Autism. They will be very thankful - the more money they have the more avenues they can explore into linking autism to its causes.

Medical Researcher .Andy

[GFLPraxis]

There is something that I ahve wanted to ask. How are forums for you? Are they a good/better form of social interaction? Do computers make you feel more normal ie having everyone at the same level?


Hmmmm...I'd say yes.

I do feel more normal having everyone at the same level. I'm able to compete in games and can be respected for being good at things. In real life? I suck at sports completely. I have a hard time with body space so I look weird with groups and stick out. Don't have that problem online.


However I still run into problems once in a while. I talk too much. You'll find my posts are often gigantic paragraphs.

As a result, my reputation varies depending which board you're on.

For example, on the Pro-networks, Macworld, and Next-gen forums, I am generally (I think ;) ) considered to be helpful in that I give every single detail I know when discussing a subject.


On the SGN boards and somewhat on the sd.net boards I am considered a know-it-all that makes huge posts and bothers everyone.

On this board, it depends who you ask...lol.


But yeah, it does feel like a more even playing field, and I do feel more comfortable talking to multiple people online than a large group. NOT THAT I DON'T HAVE FRIENDS- I'm fine with a couple friends, one or two people- but when I am with a large group in real life, I end up sticking out and being the one who sits on the bench, OR being the one who talks too much and makes a fool of himself.

[MongoTheGeek]

Another Link... (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg18624995.400)

[stubeeef]

Interesting discussion on Scarborough Country with Robert Kennedy Jr and the preservatives in these vacines. They believe it is from the vacines. Haven't checked this yet but supposed to be on Robert Kennedy's website, don't have the address yet............looking........

[aloofman]

Interesting discussion on Scarborough Country with Robert Kennedy Jr and the preservatives in these vacines. They believe it is from the vacines. Haven't checked this yet but supposed to be on Robert Kennedy's website, don't have the address yet............looking........

I'm shocked that someone is actually watching Scarborough Country.

[wdlove]

It is important to do an investigation of the link with Thimersal and autism. Don Imus has been on a crusade to get to the bottom of this problem.

Here is the information from Robert Kennedy.

http://www.daubertontheweb.com/2005/06/thimerosal-and-autism.html

[Dave00]

Let's say most teen pregnancy happens at age 16-17. Most teens get their drivers license at age 16. does that mean drivers licences cause pregnancy?

Ah yes, the common fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc . Was responsible for a number of people losing their lives in New England in the 1600's, as detailed in "The Crucible."

Vaccines have never been shown to cause autism or other rare diseases claimed by folks on the internet. There have been several very large studies recently demonstrating this. On the other hand, vaccines are responsible for the complete elimination of smallpox (except in the lab), which has at various times wiped out 1/3 of the world's population; the near-eradication of polio; and the dramatic reduction in childhood mortality in developed countries. Influenza vaccination saves thousands of lives each year, as does pneumonia vaccination.

Today's polio vaccination in the US is solely with inactivated polio vaccine (IPV), which does not cause polio. If there were universal vaccination, polio would be wiped from the face of the earth, and one of humanity's great scourges would be gone forever. At that point one could stop polio vaccination for everyone (as has been done with smallpox). However, if there is a premature cessation of vaccination effected by the pro-scare community, we might see a return of this terrible disease.

Vaccines are one of the greatest advances in medicine. It's too bad some people profit from scaring others into not vaccinating.

D. Sacco, MD

[Dave00]

Also, keep in mind that vaccines usually only protect against a single strain. This year's flu shots for example didn't contain the most commonly contracted flu strain. So all the people who went out and got a flu vaccine were not protected against the most common strain "going around". The meningitis vaccine only protects against one or two specific viruses that cause meningitis. It does not protect your child against meningitis.

There are two meningitis vaccines, each of which prevent 4 strains of the meningococcal bacteria, including the two most common in the US.

Most meningitis is viral. Viral meningitis will make you feel like hell but won't generally kill you. Whereas bacterial meningitis, in particular menigococcal meningitis, is rapidly fatal in an alarming number of cases. Once you've seen someone with meningococcal meningitis you never forget it. High fevers, severe headaches, hemorrhages, delirium. This affects young people disproportionately, and those that do survive can have devastating neurological problems for life.

Universal vaccination of dorm-residing freshmen in the US would save around 5 lives per year. (CDC Data) That may not seem like much, but imagine someone you know, at age 18, just keeling over and dying in a matter of hours to days. (You mentioned HiB vaccination - I've also seen someone nearly die from HiB meningitis.)

Agreed that vaccination represents a risk-benefit equation. That's why there are vaccines for a number of disorders that are not used routinely in the US. (Hepatitis A, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, etc.) But the ones that are used have a demonstrated reward-greater-than-risk profile. Efficacy of vaccination requires parents to abide by these recommendations; not doing so puts everyone at risk, as evidenced by the resurgence of mumps in the UK.

-D.

[Dave00]

With our 3rd child my wife got a call that the blood screening during pregnantcy indicated a chance that our child would be trisomy 13 (http://medgen.genetics.utah.edu/photographs/pages/trisomy_13.htm) . [...]
Well, they wanted to do an amnio (http://health.ivillage.com/gyno/gynoreprohealth/0,,6djc,00.html?iv_arrivalSA=1&iv_cobrandRef=0&iv_arrival_freq=1&pba=adid=16094008) to see if the baby had the trisomy problem.

This is one of the dirty secrets in obstetrics, and something I've never understood. Patients are never counselled about the "triple test", a blood test screening for certain genetic disorders. I routinely have told friends & family members, if you're not interested in having an abortion, DO NOT get the triple test. The order tends to be Triple Test -> Amnio if positive -> Counsel on abortion if amnio positive, when instead it should be Counsel on abortion -> if would consider abortion, triple test -> Amnio if positive. The rationale I've heard from some is that you never know what you're going to do if you're actually faced with the situation of having a possibly genetically disordered child. Which is offensively paternalistic, in my opinion.

The "Triple Test" is an example of how a "simple blood test" can be not so simple. I counsel men the same way on the PSA test; it's never been shown to definitely save lives; however, if it's positive it's hard not to proceed with a biopsy, which has certain risks.

-D.

[MongoTheGeek]

Universal vaccination of dorm-residing freshmen in the US would save around 5 lives per year. (CDC Data) That may not seem like much, but imagine someone you know, at age 18, just keeling over and dying in a matter of hours to days. (You mentioned HiB vaccination - I've also seen someone nearly die from HiB meningitis.)

I knew 1 of them (not very well though).

A lot of diseases are worth vaccinating for in terms of lives saved.

Some diseases are worth vaccinating for just to wipe them out.

[RedTomato]

We decided not to vacinate our baby daughter.

The autism link was only one small part of it, which we mostly ignored anyway.

My father worked as a GP (Brit front line health general practioner) in a small community for many decades, and his advice was to go ahead with the vacine if we wanted to, but that in his opinion, he had observed that they caused a small degradation in general health over the rest of the person's life.

His point was that vaccines are a trade off - you introduce foreign material straight into the bloodstream, gain some years of immunity to the relevant disease, but against that, you cause damage to the body's immune system, and create a slight overall decline of general health.

He also pointed out that most diseases are caused by poor housing, poor hygiene, poor diet, overcrowding etc, and that national disease rates for specific diseases started declining due to Victorian public hygiene improvements well before vaccines for these specific diseases were rolled out.

Where I live, in west London, has a slightly higher rate of tuberclosis than average, due to high immigration and a couple of bad estates. Our baby's health visitors kept trying to persuade us to accept TB vaccine.

We did our research, and found TB is a disease of poor housing, overcrowding, damp houses etc, none of which apply to my family, luckily enough, as we live in a lovely airy, dry, light flat on a nice road.

Catching it is also next to impossible if you don't actually live with the diseased person in the same crappy housing.

So we refused the TB vacine. To hear our health visitors carry on, you would have thought we supported the Black Death. They told us all sorts of scare stories, treated me like an idiot etc. Way to get my support, right.

xoxo

Tomato

[aloofman]

My father worked as a GP (Brit front line health general practioner) in a small community for many decades, and his advice was to go ahead with the vacine if we wanted to, but that in his opinion, he had observed that they caused a small degradation in general health over the rest of the person's life.

His point was that vaccines are a trade off - you introduce foreign material straight into the bloodstream, gain some years of immunity to the relevant disease, but against that, you cause damage to the body's immune system, and create a slight overall decline of general health.


No offense to your father, who I'm sure was a capable doctor, but does he have any scientific study to back up his "observation" that vaccines cause a "small degradation in general health"? Every unbiased study I've ever heard of says that the benefits of vaccinations far outweigh the relatively rare bad reactions that can be caused.

[RedTomato]

Well, they wanted to do an amnio (http://health.ivillage.com/gyno/gynoreprohealth/0,,6djc,00.html?iv_arrivalSA=1&iv_cobrandRef=0&iv_arrival_freq=1&pba=adid=16094008) to see if the baby had the trisomy problem. Now things get interesting, I was knowledgeable enough to know that an amnio can (not often) cause a miscarriage. So I asked 3 different doctors over a 2 day period what the odd of a miscarriage were, (I am not making this up, as in HeeHaw 'truth is stranger than fiction") I got 3 different answers ( they were all obgyn's in the same practice) the answers I got were 1 in 300, 2 in 300, 3 in 300. Ok so I got the feeling it was low, but possible. Now the next question is, if the baby has trisomy is there anything we can do to "cure" or help her by knowing it from the amnio. Answer-NO. Well why do it? If you want to abort. (Notice if you don't ask no one will tell you, you just go get an amnio) So we could get peace of mind or horrors, either way my wife would not abort, and the amnio would increase the odds of losing a possibly wonderful child.
...
What I want those reading this to understand is; know what you will and won't do, know what and why you are having a test BEFORE you have it, UNDERSTAND the consequences of each test and procedure BEFORE you have it-don't blindly do it cause some Dr said to. We could have had an amnio to see if our baby had trisomy based on a VERY LAME screening and had a miscarriage of my perfectly healthy 6 yr old Miranda Grace.
BECAREFUL AND WEARY, BE YOUR BEST ADVOCATE-CAUSE SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT NOT BE.

I had almost eactly the same experience. Our baby was diagnosed as being at risk of Downs Syndrome. After considering the same issues, we had a procedure slightly similar to an amino, with the same risks, because we felt the situation needed clarifying.

The hospital were very keen for us to have the amino, and we were told it carried a 1 in 200 risk. Fortunately, everything went fine, and the results were good.

Come the birth, it was found (by accident) that my partner had a streph B infection. This is very common, 1 in 3 women have it.

The hospital refused us a water birth, which my partner had desperately wanted, wanted to pump my partner and her unborn baby full of antibiotics at birth etc.

We did our research, found that in our circumstances, there was a roughtly 1 in 5000 risk, except if a certain sequence of events occured, when it went to 1 in 1000.

So we refused antibiotics, with clear instructions that we would accept them if that certain sequence occured. (to simplify, a gap of more than 48 hours between waters breaking and birth.)

To hear the hospital, you would have thought we were condeming our baby to death. I had to argue the case with 14 different staff while assisting my partner through a 30 hour labour, despite formally agreeing our plan with medical staff a month before the birth...

I found it hypocritical that they were ancouraging us to accept a 1/200 risk of death just to discover some information of dubious relevance, but refused to accept our decision on a 1/5000 risk.

To make it even worse, I found this hospital had a policy of not bothering to scan all pregnant women for strep B anyway, meaning that 1 in 3 of their births have this infection present and undiagnosed, waterbirths and all, yet almost all of these births go perfectly fine.

So why give us so much hassle? why refuse a waterbirth to my partner when she desperately needed one?

Like StuBeef says, you gotta do your own research, make your own decisions, and be your own best advocate.

Next time, we're having it at home, hire a water tub and all :)

xoxo

Tomato

[stubeeef]

The issue is not the science behind the vacine, the issue is the preservative used to dispense it. There are other ways, safer, but more costly was than the preservative they are using. There is a marked increase in autism when this preservative became vastly more present. That is the link.
I want my kid vaccinated, and did, but had I known of the preservative issue, I would have asked and paid for a version without it.

[aloofman]

There is a marked increase in autism when this preservative became vastly more present. That is the link.


No, there has been an increase in observed autism rates over a similar time span that the preservative has been used. That doesn't prove that the latter causes the former. It creates a suspicion that warrants investigation. So far the most scientific studies haven't shown a link. There could still be one we haven't detected yet. You could make the argument that they should switch to another preservative anyway just to be on the safe side.

[stubeeef]

No, there has been an increase in observed autism rates over a similar time span that the preservative has been used. That doesn't prove that the latter causes the former. It creates a suspicion that warrants investigation. So far the most scientific studies haven't shown a link. There could still be one we haven't detected yet. You could make the argument that they should switch to another preservative anyway just to be on the safe side.

I'll concur with your version, either way there is suspicion, and I would rather avoid the likelyhood. I think more will come to light very soon, and will swing the ball to or away from that preservative.
Staytuned, btw what is wrong with Scarborough Country? It was good enough for Kennedy...

[aloofman]

I'll concur with your version, either way there is suspicion, and I would rather avoid the likelyhood. I think more will come to light very soon, and will swing the ball to or away from that preservative.
Staytuned, btw what is wrong with Scarborough Country? It was good enough for Kennedy...

Except for the whiny moron that hosts it, I suppose it's not much worse than the other "news" talk shows. Every time I've turned it on, he was complaining about something. I can only stand it for about 30 seconds.

[MongoTheGeek]

So we refused the TB vacine. To hear our health visitors carry on, you would have thought we supported the Black Death. They told us all sorts of scare stories, treated me like an idiot etc. Way to get my support, right.

Never mind that it takes months to kill or even seriously injure you and is highly treatable.

[RedTomato]

No offense to your father, who I'm sure was a capable doctor, but does he have any scientific study to back up his "observation" that vaccines cause a "small degradation in general health"? Every unbiased study I've ever heard of says that the benefits of vaccinations far outweigh the relatively rare bad reactions that can be caused.

Yeah, he actually lectures in hospitals and to postgrad medical students now on the immune system. Sorry to be so vague, but having grown up in such a medical environment, and seen the stress my dad went through, I have strenuously avoided any career linked with medicine, or even learning too much about it...

He's got bookshelves full of research and studies on this topic, which I avert my eyes from when I visit him :)

I'll stick my neck out and say i think he's refering to the general rise in chronic diseases, diseases which go on and on, and are 'difficult' to treat, such as arthritis, cancer, AIDS, etc.

That's as opposed to 'acute' diseases, from which you get ill, stay ill for a few days/weeks, then recover from, back to full health. That's his preferred mode of illness, rather than something which rumbles on at a low level, running through a gamut of treatments, slowly getting worse and worse over the years.

[EDIT] I'll try to link it to your question, and say that I think he means that even if there is no 'bad reaction' as such, the body's overall defences are compromised, with subtle effects that take years to show up. Sorry I'm definitely not an expert in this area.

xoxo

tomato

[jimN]

I've been reading the forums on this site for over half a year but this has been the first thread that has actually driven me to register and post a reply. It's always interesting to see people's take on things that i deal with on a daily basis but it is this rejection of modern medicine that never fails to surprise me. We've seen a number of advances in medicine in the last fifty years and the vaccine program would be described by many health professionals as one of the greatest successes. Preventing illness is by far and away the best way to reduce morbidity and mortality (although obviously it isn't as glamourous as treating ill children but seeing sick children is never pleasant).

The vaccine prgram in england is tried and tested and appropriate:
2,3,4 months of age - 5-in-1 (diptheria, tetanus and pertussis [whooping cough] polio and haemophilus influenza B) + Men C. The DTP vaccine until recently did contain traces of mercury but the process has now changed and it is no longer in there. Everyone is aware of how serious polio is and someone pointed out earlier in the thread that HiB can cause meninigitis. HiB also causes epiglottitis, a serious condition affecting the upper aware that can precipitate life threatening airway spasm if the throat is irritated, and these children have to work very hard to keep the airway open. The DTP part of things protects against largely benign diseases that would be so common that rare complications would be relatively frequent occurences given the size of the population. Men C is potentially fatal, obviously we'd love to be able to protect against men B but we can't at present but bacterial meningitis is often very severe and neurological sequelae are common, as is end organ damage or even auto amputation of digits and occasionally limbs.

The MMR vaccine that has had such bad publicity here is effective and you have to remember that the scandal is over 5 years old and that the original work by Wakefield has been heavily discredited and contradicted. However, whilst everyone was so keen to leap on the 'evidence' when it was first published, better and more recent research that supports the vaccine is treated as suspicious. The reason combined vaccines are given that way are threefold: 1. convenience + less iritation to child, 2. compliance - if you split these things up people start to pick and choose their components and it is hard enough getting people in for all their jabs as it is, 3. cost - in the UK we have a finite budget for health services spread across a near bottomless demand, of course cost is an issue. People seem to forget that all of these conditions have serious consequences. Measles is, for the most part, a benign viral illness but in rare cases the consequences are serious - interestingly enough you'll find autism listed as a possible complication and also the far more unpleasant sub acute sclerosing panencephalitis. Rubella again is prettty harmless but pick it up when pregnant and then things get nasty - i have seen a child with congenital rubella and at present she doesn't look like she'll ever leave hospital. As for mumps - the reason we're so scared of it is that mumps orchitis can knock your fertility off, as a bloke the though of not having the potence you always took for granted is a bit scary!

People who don't immunise tend to rely on what is called herd immunity - the idea that if enough children are protected then the prevalence of the disease will be low enough that their children will never see it. This is flawed on two counts. First if everyone is doing it there goes your herd immunity and two the child is never actually protected and so adult exposure (or adolescent exposure) which can be more harmful, as i mentioned above, may take place. Herd immunity is important for immunocompromised children and those who have yet to be given protection through immunisation, choosing to get your children jabbed needs to be a selfless act to a certain extent.

To address a couple of other points raised here. TB is not an easily diagnosed easily treatable disorder that is only caused by bad housing!! The chances of being exposed to TB in a country with rising levels of homelessness and immigration are pretty good and as such assuming you are safe because you live in your nice little house and don't mix with the 'bad types' is foolish. You never know who'll end up in your child's class at school. TB itself often has a very insidious presentation and is not always in the lungs - it can cause collections and damage pretty much anywhere. Treatment lasts at least a couple of months and can go on for up to a year. The diagnosis is very difficult and has to be clinical because tests take an age to come back and the antibiotics used are many, foul and in one case hepatotoxic.

As for the group B strep comments. Yes the rate of carriage in women is very high and the incidence of sepsis in neonates is in the region of 1 in 3000, and i tootally agree with your sentiments re amniocentesis and chorionic villous sampling. However, children who develop sepsis will get sick very very quickly and death is a common consequence. As a department i know that we would welcome not having to keep in these children whilst giving them antibiotics and putting their parents through hell. But no-one likes to see a healthy child die and that is why we do it. You're right, your child has a very low risk but we look at it as one preventable death in a year and we look to achieve that.

Finally, having been through a medical education in Britain and now working in a children's department i can say that i have never heard of a link between vaccination and long term good health. Cancer and arthritis are more prolific because of an aging population that isn't bneing killed off by other things - life still has 100% mortality! Arthritis in particular isn't helped by everyone getting more plump. As for AIDS, given the theories regarding its origin from animals it seems that vaccination is an unlikely precipitant.

That's my take on things, just felt compelled to share it.

Competing interests:
JN is not a father but looks after children at work and gets really annoyed with parents who smoke even if they insist 'it's always outside the house'.

[rt_brained]

I'm a very good driver.

[Gimzotoy]

No, there has been an increase in observed autism rates over a similar time span that the preservative has been used. That doesn't prove that the latter causes the former. It creates a suspicion that warrants investigation. So far the most scientific studies haven't shown a link. There could still be one we haven't detected yet. You could make the argument that they should switch to another preservative anyway just to be on the safe side.

Sure, it definately warrants an investigation. At this point, we don't know enough about its causes to make a recommendation either way about the link. Although, it's easy to be skeptical of the studies disproving the link. A good friend of mine (who is in medical school) attended a vaccination lecture at a major university medical school where the speaker insisted it was the medial community's duty to protect the drug companies from links between autism and thimerosal. Only then would they be able to continue to develop vaccinations and take risks during their development. While I can see the advantages of such a course of action (vaccines are extremely important), why should a doctor go out of their way to protect a potentially negligent company? This feeling is, unfortunately, widespread within the medical community. While thinking on a global scale is commendable, a doctor operates on a small scale. I don't see how you would be able to recommend your patients take the thimerosal vaccines knowing the risk involved, especially when there are viable alternatives.

To me, the proof is in the phasing-out of thimerosal in the US (although we're still shipping it to other countries). Clearly, the risk is there and someone knows it. Until then, I would say that it is advisable to request vaccines that have not been preserved with thimerosal as opposed to denying all vaccinations. Even if studies down the road clearly illustrate a link between thimerosal and autism, the risk of contracting the diseases the vaccines cause seems far greater.

[aloofman]

Sure, it definately warrants an investigation. At this point, we don't know enough about its causes to make a recommendation either way about the link. Although, it's easy to be skeptical of the studies disproving the link. A good friend of mine (who is in medical school) attended a vaccination lecture at a major university medical school where the speaker insisted it was the medial community's duty to protect the drug companies from links between autism and thimerosal. Only then would they be able to continue to develop vaccinations and take risks during their development. While I can see the advantages of such a course of action (vaccines are extremely important), why should a doctor go out of their way to protect a potentially negligent company? This feeling is, unfortunately, widespread within the medical community. While thinking on a global scale is commendable, a doctor operates on a small scale. I don't see how you would be able to recommend your patients take the thimerosal vaccines knowing the risk involved, especially when there are viable alternatives.

To me, the proof is in the phasing-out of thimerosal in the US (although we're still shipping it to other countries). Clearly, the risk is there and someone knows it. Until then, I would say that it is advisable to request vaccines that have not been preserved with thimerosal as opposed to denying all vaccinations. Even if studies down the road clearly illustrate a link between thimerosal and autism, the risk of contracting the diseases the vaccines cause seems far greater.

I agree. By no means should suspicions about a link be used to justify letting a Big Pharma off the hook. The danger is that people will shun vaccines that save lives based on rumor and hearsay.

[Sun Baked]

Interesting, looked at one of the other sites I look at ...

And the guy running it, who has an autistic child, thinks all this is hogwash.

He says the standards for autism have loosened, and they are getting much better at detecting it -- so of course the rates have gone up as a result.

By the standards they used 20 years ago, there isn't a change in the rate of autism.

---

Of course since the rate of thimerisol usage has gone down, you'd expect a decrease ...

However there are other things to look at if the rate continues to stay stable.

Edit: watch it's probably a far out combo of factors like dental visit at the time of a vaccine containing aluminium phosphate.