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View Full Version : Proposal to eliminate "downvoting" of posts


b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 10:35 AM
Based on my observations, people primarily do not downvote based on the quality of a post; they downvote based on whether they personally agree or disagree with the post content. I've seen well reasoned, thoughtful posts be downvoted into oblivion just because they expressed negative opinions about an Apple product/feature.

Sometimes, new posters get downvoted simply for the fact that they're new:
I've just noticed 2 downvotes on a post in which I asked for help today ! I'm unsubscribing forthwith as it makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't know what i did wrong. I only asked for help. People were good enough to respond. But if others think I'm wasting valuable time, then I don't want to be here.

That seems totally wrong to me. MacRumors isn't an old boys club that should frown upon new members.

I think the downvoting option should be removed from posts, but the upvoting option should remain. That way it leads to less hostility and negativity, and truly bad posts/posts that break the rules can be reported using the "Report Post" option.

Just my two cents.

GGJstudios
Nov 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
How to hide the rating system (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1217997)
Can we please remove the vote buttons? (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1153058)

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 10:56 AM
How to hide the rating system (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1217997)
Can we please remove the vote buttons? (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1153058)
These don't really seem to address the issue. Hiding the voting buttons is akin to burying your head in the sand.

GGJstudios
Nov 8, 2011, 10:59 AM
These don't really seem to address the issue. Hiding the voting buttons is akin to burying your head in the sand.
Read both links. They're not just discussing hiding them. The point is, it's been discussed ad nauseam.

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 11:03 AM
Read both links.
I did. The second thread is a perfect example of what I'm referring to. The OP couldn't have been more articulate and his post has a rating of -52.

That just seems totally wrong to me.

PlaceofDis
Nov 8, 2011, 11:13 AM
this is the whole reason there wasn't a voting system in place here for so long. i still think that it is not needed and the continued use of it is rather pointless.

imo.

miles01110
Nov 8, 2011, 11:17 AM
Ignore it. The only place it matters is on the front page, where the comments are ordered according to the highest-voted responses. In the forums it's as unnoticeable as it can be.

chown33
Nov 8, 2011, 03:24 PM
Hiding the voting buttons is akin to burying your head in the sand.

Believing the vote-count has any significance is akin to hearing voices in white noise.

It can be fun. Or not. I will up-vote or down-vote for many different reasons. Humor is often one of them, and sometimes a down-vote is the most humorous to me.

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 03:32 PM
Believing the vote-count has any significance is akin to hearing voices in white noise.
Exactly. Since it has no significance, let's get rid of it.

greganpace
Nov 8, 2011, 03:34 PM
Yeah... I've been using the forum for 3 months and I didn't even know they were there until last week. No one cares...

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 03:35 PM
This is a fresh topic with many novel arguments.

arn
Nov 8, 2011, 03:41 PM
Based on my observations, people primarily do not downvote based on the quality of a post; they downvote based on whether they personally agree or disagree with the post content.

Please link to specific examples of posts you think were improperly downvoted... excluding any examples in discussions about voting -- as those votes are artificially affected by the discussion.

arn

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 04:07 PM
Please link to specific examples of posts you think were improperly downvoted... excluding any examples in discussions about voting -- as those votes are artificially affected by the discussion.

arn

I think a definition of "improperly downvoted" would have to be created before specific examples could be cited. As I understand it now, it is merely a feature with no prescribed rules for use. I could be wrong though; you would certainly know better than I. :D

I just don't understand why people get so upset over it in the first place.....

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 04:10 PM
Please link to specific examples of posts you think were improperly downvoted... excluding any examples in discussions about voting -- as those votes are artificially affected by the discussion.

arn

1 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1250863), 2 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1271644)

MacDawg
Nov 8, 2011, 04:14 PM
1 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1250863), 2 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1271644)

I just looked at the posts and both are yours and both are -1 on the downvote

Is this really a concern?
I fail to see this as abuse or even improper use of the system personally

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 04:17 PM
I just looked at the posts and both are yours and both are -1 on the downvote

Is this really a concern?
I fail to see this as abuse or even improper use of the system personally
They are just examples brah, it happens in other threads too but I just knew these two off the top of my head since they were my posts

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 04:19 PM
They are just examples brah, it happens in other threads too but I just knew these two off the top of my head since they were my posts

How is it inappropriate?

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 04:27 PM
How is it inappropriate?
Downvotes are not constructive. Why doesn't Google+ have a "-1" button? Why doesn't Facebook have a "Dislike" option?

I wrote a tutorial about how to unlock a Verizon iPhone, and it was downvoted. Why? I can't answer that, but I do know that it makes no sense to me, and doesn't make me feel particularly interested in being helpful like that in the future on this forum because downvotes indicate to me that the post wasn't appreciated.

I think the upvote button by itself makes much more sense. If a post is truly bad or wrong in some way, it can still be reported.

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 04:34 PM
Downvotes are not constructive. Why doesn't Google+ have a "-1" button? Why doesn't Facebook have a "Dislike" option?

I wrote a tutorial about how to unlock a Verizon iPhone, and it was downvoted. Why? I can't answer that, but I do know that it makes no sense to me, and doesn't make me feel particularly interested in being helpful like that in the future on this forum because downvotes indicate to me that the post wasn't appreciated.

I think the upvote button by itself makes much more sense. If a post is truly bad or wrong in some way, it can still be reported.

Doesn't mean it is inappropriate. It would be even more useless to provide only an upvote button.

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 04:38 PM
Doesn't mean it is inappropriate.
I'm not sure I understand your question then. Maybe it would make more sense for you to explain how a downvote of that post was appropriate.

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 04:55 PM
I'm not sure I understand your question then. Maybe it would make more sense for you to explain how a downvote of that post was appropriate.

You would have to ask the person (or people) who did it; I'm not sure why your posts were down voted.

Is the only reason you want it to go away because you're hurt by the thought of someone down voting your post without an explanation?

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 04:56 PM
I just looked at the posts and both are yours and both are -1 on the downvote
-2 and -3 now.

----------

Is the only reason you want it to go away because you're hurt by the thought of someone down voting your post without an explanation?
I explained my reason in the first post.

dukebound85
Nov 8, 2011, 04:58 PM
I did. The second thread is a perfect example of what I'm referring to. The OP couldn't have been more articulate and his post has a rating of -52.

That just seems totally wrong to me.

Then hide the votes......

For one who says that this system has no significance, you sure are worried about it

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 05:00 PM
-2 and -3 now.

----------


I explained my reason in the first post.

There is no way to implement the system you want. It'd be best to hide it and continue on with your day.

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 05:10 PM
There is no way to implement the system you want.
That's not correct. This vBulletin forum (www.droidforums.net/forum/) uses just a "like" button for posts:

http://i.imgur.com/Yl06l.jpg

MacDawg
Nov 8, 2011, 05:12 PM
-2 and -3 now.


I am guessing it is because you called attention to it

bjm2660
Nov 8, 2011, 05:14 PM
I am inclined to agree with the OP. Down-voting merely provides a cowardly method of disagreement. This forum exists so that we can have a free exchange of ideas. There is already enough negativity here with out the cheap-shots.

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 05:27 PM
...people primarily do not downvote based on the quality of a post; they downvote based on whether they personally agree or disagree with the post content. I've seen well reasoned, thoughtful posts be downvoted into oblivion just because they expressed negative opinions about an Apple product/feature.

That seems totally wrong to me....

There isn't a way to implement an up/down vote system that only allows people to vote based on the "quality" of the post.

An up vote only system is of no improved utility.

Again, why are we so cranky about this? Just hide it and be happy.

b24pgg
Nov 8, 2011, 05:45 PM
An up vote only system is of no improved utility.
I disagree. Most successful websites have become that way by providing a positive user experience. Again, this is the main reason Facebook and Google+ will never have a "dislike" and "-1" button. The downvote has no benefit whatsoever, and encourages bad energy. It can make new users with noobish or Apple-critical posts feel unaccepted or intimidated.

I know that if I did a Google search for example on how to unlock a Verizon iPhone and found my tutorial thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1250863), I would see the "-5" at the bottom of the post and think that maybe the tutorial was wrong (it's not) or that something else was wrong with the post.

Let me ask this question: what is the benefit of a downvote? Since the downvotes are public and can be seen in the corner of every post, what is a negative value supposed to signify to a reader?

mobilehaathi
Nov 8, 2011, 06:03 PM
I disagree. Most successful websites have become that way by providing a positive user experience. Again, this is the main reason Facebook and Google+ will never have a "dislike" and "-1" button. The downvote has no benefit whatsoever, and encourages bad energy. It can make new users with noobish or Apple-critical posts feel unaccepted or intimidated.

I know that if I did a Google search for example on how to unlock a Verizon iPhone and found my tutorial thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1250863), I would see the "-5" at the bottom of the post and think that maybe the tutorial was wrong (it's not) or that something else was wrong with the post.

Let me ask this question: what is the benefit of a downvote? Since the downvotes are public and can be seen in the corner of every post, what is a negative value supposed to signify to a reader?

An individual down vote is a vague expression of negativity. In aggregate, the sum of all up and down votes can give a reader a vague impression of how the community feels about a particular post.

Perhaps the problem is not enough people are participating in the system, therefore making your presumably helpful post prone to one or two jokers who like to down vote on a whim. Or maybe those people don't approve of unlocking phones? Or perhaps they confuse unlocking with jail breaking and disapprove of that? The point is it is vague, and a few votes in either direction shouldn't be grounds to accept or dismiss a post.

The system is silly only because it isn't used often (and perhaps because people put too much weight on it). I wouldn't care if it went away; I don't care if it stays. Obviously we disagree.

wordoflife
Nov 8, 2011, 08:27 PM
Don't worry OP. Those buttons/post ratings don't mean anything. Thanks for the tutorial. I don't have Verizon, but I thought it was good information nonetheless.

localoid
Nov 9, 2011, 02:15 AM
All forum posts are equal, but some are more equal.

maflynn
Nov 9, 2011, 06:32 AM
I'm not against negative votes, and the reasoning that social media has only plus or likes doesn't justify the removal of a negative voting system. In fact there many people who wished facebook had a hate button.

As for the voting system itself, my personal opinion on this is that it serves no purpose but is easily ignored, that is, I pay little attention to it.

ActionableMango
Nov 9, 2011, 12:34 PM
You appear to be personally offended by a negative vote on your Verizon post.

All the up and down votes show is sheer popularity. The reasons behind the votes are up to each individual. You take the wrong meaning from it. A bunch of down votes about the Verizon post simply shows that it is an unpopular post, not an incorrect or uninformed post.

I would argue that any system with an up vote should also have a down vote for the following reasons:

1 - The argument that other systems only have an up vote does not prove anything. It does not mean they are right or superior, it only proves that other systems do it. All it means to me is that Facebook and Google are social and want to pretend everything is correct, happy, and positive when in the real world that is simply not true.

2 - The argument that down votes include people who just don't like a post, even if it was informative, is likewise nonsense. The exact same will occur with the upvote, where people will vote up posts they like, even if the post is uninformative or outright incorrect.

b24pgg
Nov 9, 2011, 01:14 PM
You appear to be personally offended by a negative vote on your Verizon post.
Your assessment is wrong. I couldn't care less what people on an internet forum think; I used that thread simply as an example. My objection to the downvoting is based purely on the fact that it's a bad system.
A bunch of down votes about the Verizon post simply shows that it is an unpopular post
This makes no sense. That thread has something like 7 pages of replies.

Regardless, my objection has been noted by the mods/admins and that's all I ask.

Huntn
Nov 9, 2011, 02:52 PM
Until about a week ago, I was not even aware this was a MR feature, really.

Now that I see it, my observation is that it is really kind of vague. It could be agreement/disagreement with how you feel about the author, what the author is saying, or how you feel about the subject in general. I don't really see a post vote as having that much value, but it's not that important to me either.

b24pgg
Dec 7, 2011, 09:34 AM
I think removing the vote buttons entirely isn't necessary but since that thread was bumped, this would be a good alternative.

----------

The argument that other systems only have an up vote does not prove anything. It does not mean they are right or superior, it only proves that other systems do it. All it means to me is that Facebook and Google are social and want to pretend everything is correct, happy, and positive when in the real world that is simply not true.
It's strange that you compare this to the real world...because in the real world, NO one uses downvoting. Name one election, poll, or contest - anywhere - that utilizes the concept of downvoting.

You can't do it.

When you vote anywhere in the world, you either give the candidate(s) your upvote, or you give no vote at all.

Downvoting has nothing to do with "pretending everything is correct, happy and positive." It's a bad system that is utilized practically nowhere else, and with good reason. It just does not work.

mobilehaathi
Dec 7, 2011, 09:39 AM
This is not an election, my friend.

I think removing the vote buttons entirely isn't necessary but since that thread was bumped, this would be a good alternative.

----------


It's strange that you compare this to the real world...because in the real world, NO one uses downvoting. Name one election, poll, or contest - anywhere - that utilizes the concept of downvoting.

You can't do it.

When you vote anywhere in the world, you either give the candidate(s) your upvote, or you give no vote at all.

Downvoting has nothing to do with "pretending everything is correct, happy and positive." It's a bad system that is utilized practically nowhere else, and with good reason. It just does not work.

maflynn
Dec 7, 2011, 09:41 AM
It's strange that you compare this to the real world...because in the real world, NO one uses downvoting. Name one election, poll, or contest - anywhere - that utilizes the concept of downvoting..

Well MacRumors is not handling elections, polls or contests. Downvoting's purpose is to record's a member's disagreement with the post and as such it serves a purpose.

b24pgg
Dec 7, 2011, 09:43 AM
there many people who wished facebook had a hate button.
And why do you suppose a hate button hasn't been implemented, despite all the people wanting it?

maflynn
Dec 7, 2011, 09:44 AM
And why do you suppose a hate button hasn't been implemented, despite all the people wanting it?

I don't work for Facebook, so I have no idea on their plans of such

Tinmania
Dec 7, 2011, 09:50 AM
And why do you suppose a hate button hasn't been implemented, despite all the people wanting it?
Well I would say if the voting system stays in place it should list who voted.

Most of the web forums I visit don't have down voting: they either have a "like" or "thanks." And who thanked is listed. I guess, since your post about this is so unpopular, one could conclude this place has a lot of passive aggressive anonymous cowards. Let the down voting begin lol!



Michael

b24pgg
Dec 7, 2011, 09:56 AM
Downvoting's purpose is to record's a member's disagreement with the post and as such it serves a purpose.
...except it doesn't work that way.

This thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1250863) has a vote tally of -8. What is there to "disagree" with, exactly?

"Disagreement with a post" is incredibly vague. When people write why they disagree with a post, only then does it make sense.

As it stands now, does a downvote imply the voter thinks the information in the post is wrong/inaccurate?
Does it imply the voter doesn't like the author?
Does it imply the voter disagrees with the opinion presented?
Does it imply the voter thinks the post is anti-Apple?

It could mean any of those, or a number of other things...and that's the problem. It's vague...and may give observers the wrong impression.

I know if I were a visitor to MacRumors who arrived via a Google search for SIM unlocking, saw this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1250863), and then saw the vote tally, I would be inclined to think that something is inherently wrong with the post (which there isn't.)

----------

Well MacRumors is not handling elections, polls or contests.
I agree completely. ActionableMango compared it to the real world, so I responded that it can't be compared to the real world, because it quite obviously doesn't work in the same way.

----------

Most of the web forums I visit don't have down voting: they either have a "like" or "thanks." And who thanked is listed. I guess, since your post about this is so unpopular, one could conclude this place has a lot of passive aggressive anonymous cowards.
My sentiment exactly.

paulrbeers
Dec 7, 2011, 11:13 AM
First off, why did I spend time reading this thread?

Secondly, why does this really matter? God, we are such a society of pansies worrying about everyone's feelings. Seriously, this is just a forum with people you will never meet. Does a negative vote on one of your posts from some guy who lives in his mother's basement, eats doritos all day, and works at a 7-11 really that big of a deal to you?

Good god....

I leave you all with this slightly altered quote:

"Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "

pvmacguy
Dec 7, 2011, 02:24 PM
Downvotes are not constructive. Why doesn't Google+ have a "-1" button? Why doesn't Facebook have a "Dislike" option?

I wrote a tutorial about how to unlock a Verizon iPhone, and it was downvoted. Why? I can't answer that, but I do know that it makes no sense to me, and doesn't make me feel particularly interested in being helpful like that in the future on this forum because downvotes indicate to me that the post wasn't appreciated.

I think the upvote button by itself makes much more sense. If a post is truly bad or wrong in some way, it can still be reported.

Want actual constructive criticism on why?

You brough nothing new to the table on terms of unlocking the device, when people see a thread title like that they expect to fully unlock the device and have it work on any GSM carrier. You provided information that people already knew in a long lengthy post that isnt even a full sim slot unlock. That is why people downrated the post.

b24pgg
Dec 7, 2011, 02:42 PM
You provided information that people already knew
False. If you were right, then these posts wouldn't exist in that thread:
Great thread, OP! Was able to call the number provided, achieved SIM unlock status with Verizon (who btw said that this device will be unlocked indefinitely!), popped in foreign SIM from SingTel, restarted phone, activated through Wi-FI (one-time occurrence), and now roaming on AT&T! Received texts from SingTel about roaming options, etc. Great work! :D

I would like to give a big thank you to SGMD1 for all his time and help on this thread. Thanks, SGMD1! :) You have been generous and kind with your help on this thread, and I appreciate it.

Thank you for your effort in this and it's been very helpful.

This thread has been very helpful. Thanks guys!

Awesome. Everything worked on Verizon's end. I'm unlocked. Thanks for the help.

Thanks for the write up! I had the phone unlocked for my trip last week to Germany. Worked perfectly :)

paulrbeers
Dec 7, 2011, 02:49 PM
False. If you were right, then these posts wouldn't exist in that thread:

Congrats on cherry picking....

Guess what? I got downgraded on my posts (most likely by you), and I don't really care. I don't care that my +1 rating in both threads about this, are now 0. My opinion is my opinion whether Joe Schmoe likes it or not.....

b24pgg
Dec 7, 2011, 02:55 PM
Congrats on cherry picking....
pvmacguy's explanation for the downvotes of that thread are false, cherry picking or not.

mobilehaathi
Dec 7, 2011, 02:57 PM
Let it go dude....

b24pgg
Dec 7, 2011, 03:02 PM
Let it go dude....
You don't honestly think I'm going to do that, do you...

mobilehaathi
Dec 7, 2011, 03:07 PM
You don't honestly think I'm going to do that, do you...

Of course not :D

thejadedmonkey
Dec 7, 2011, 03:07 PM
Add my "upvote" for the removal of "downvotes". I seriously hate them, and find them to be a big pain.

Seriously, the only time I find them useful is when I laugh when I see *LTD* has -20 votes to his post. And that's a really lousy reason for wanting something (and it goes against forum rules of singling someone specific out).

s15119
Dec 8, 2011, 07:02 AM
Damn. It's amazing the things people spend energy on. Your posts got down-voted. Arn asked you to show examples of people inappropriately using down-voting. You failed to do that.

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 09:00 AM
Arn asked you to show examples of people inappropriately using down-voting. You failed to do that.
I posted two examples, just two posts below his. See post #14 and pay better attention next time.

MacDawg
Dec 8, 2011, 09:14 AM
And why do you suppose a hate button hasn't been implemented, despite all the people wanting it?

I don't think people want a "hate" button on FB, but as you have noted, many (most) people would prefer to have an "unlike" or similar button

Here we have the equivalent, and some people don't want one
That shouldn't be a shock

People have differing opinions on things
Matte or glossy
11" or 13"
MBA or MBP
Windows or OS X
Android or iOS
Paper or plastic

It is called life, and most of us learn to deal with the fact that not everyone shares our opinion

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 09:22 AM
I don't think people want a "hate" button on FB
...your fellow moderator disagrees:
there many people who wished facebook had a hate button
many (most) people would prefer to have an "unlike" or similar button
I doubt that's true. Source?

maflynn
Dec 8, 2011, 09:24 AM
The point that MacDawg is making is people have different opinions and call it what you want, but I'd like an unlike button. Call it hate, call it unlike it does not matter but I'd like something that is the opposite of like

As for moderators dissenting, we are members and have our own opinions, we may or may not agree on topics and that does not prove anything other then what MacDawg stated we may not always agree with people

MacDawg
Dec 8, 2011, 09:25 AM
...your fellow moderator disagrees:


your point?
we all have our opinions, which is my point


I doubt that's true. Source?

anecdotal
feel free to disagree, that's what we do on the internet

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 09:28 AM
It is called life, and most of us learn to deal with the fact that not everyone shares our opinion
You're forgetting that MacRumors is not a democracy. The community doesn't vote on every new forum feature, and this is one of the main reasons why your position as moderator exists in the first place. Mods sometimes have to make decisions because a user can't make the right one.

Just because a lot of people want to be able to downvote doesn't mean it's a good feature. I think the fact that the system is abused as much as it is would indicate that.

thejadedmonkey
Dec 8, 2011, 10:03 AM
The point that MacDawg is making is people have different opinions and call it what you want, but I'd like an unlike button. Call it hate, call it unlike it does not matter but I'd like something that is the opposite of like

As for moderators dissenting, we are members and have our own opinions, we may or may not agree on topics and that does not prove anything other then what MacDawg stated we may not always agree with people

Unlike and dislike are different. One is the negation of a positive, the other is an affirmation of a negative. If you have a "Like" button, you're only able to show agreement and imply positive setements. If you have a "Dislike" (-) button, you can spread your negativity.

They're very different, and I disagree with the use of a button of negativity.

maflynn
Dec 8, 2011, 10:49 AM
Ok, let me be more precise then. I, like many of my FB friends would like a dislike (or hate or whatever) button that is the opposite of like. Yes a negative voting mechanism. At this point there is no such mechanism and given how FB makes money and sponsors/advertisers are intertwined with the site, I doubt there ever will be one.

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 10:58 AM
I...would like a dislike...button that is the opposite of like...At this point there is no such mechanism and given how FB makes money and sponsors/advertisers are intertwined with the site, I doubt there ever will be one.
And just yesterday you had no idea why there was no dislike button:
And why do you suppose a hate button hasn't been implemented, despite all the people wanting it?
I don't work for Facebook, so I have no idea on their plans of such
Now all of a sudden it's because of sponsors and advertisers?

Hastings101
Dec 8, 2011, 11:10 AM
I thought voting up/voting down on a comment was for if you agreed/disagreed with it, not whether it was a high quality post or written lyke dis<3.

gnasher729
Dec 8, 2011, 11:11 AM
An individual down vote is a vague expression of negativity. In aggregate, the sum of all up and down votes can give a reader a vague impression of how the community feels about a particular post.

There is "community", and there are all kinds of fanatics. You can get +100 for the greatest nonsense and -100 for the greatest wisdom on earth if you agree or disagree with the right group of fanatics. In which case that vote gives an interesting indication of what kind of people are voting.

mobilehaathi
Dec 8, 2011, 11:41 AM
There is "community", and there are all kinds of fanatics. You can get +100 for the greatest nonsense and -100 for the greatest wisdom on earth if you agree or disagree with the right group of fanatics. In which case that vote gives an interesting indication of what kind of people are voting.

I agree. Community is not a static idea here. Its composition changes from sub-forum to sub-forum even on this site. It is interesting to note that each sub-forum doesn't use the up/down vote system for the same purposes (contrast PRSI with Mac Programming). Then you have people who up/down vote not on the content of the post but for other reasons altogether.

I tend to find these things interesting, and I enjoy observing the various patterns.

I don't think removing downvoting is going to solve any of the problems though. You could still get +100 votes for complete nonsense and without the ability for the sensible community members to "correct" it. Finally, I have to admit that--being the internet and all--people shouldn't take an up or down vote of any magnitude to be particularly informative.

To be honest, I really don't give a crap one way or another what happens to this system. I only joined the conversation to be the devil's advocate, and because I still don't understand why people put so much stock in the system from the start.

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 11:53 AM
people shouldn't take an up or down vote of any magnitude to be particularly informative
Then why does it exist??

mobilehaathi
Dec 8, 2011, 12:01 PM
Then why does it exist??

It is not necessarily informative for the purposes that one might assume it would be. It isn't like an up vote only system is going to be any more informative.

I don't know why it exists?? I don't see a point in any of it.

Sabrina2000
Dec 8, 2011, 12:29 PM
I've just noticed 2 downvotes on a post in which I asked for help today ! I'm unsubscribing forthwith as it makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't know what i did wrong. I only asked for help. People were good enough to respond. But if others think I'm wasting valuable time, then I don't want to be here.

Just been into user control panel but can't find any option to unsubscribe - how do you unsubscribe?

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 12:53 PM
I've just noticed 2 downvotes on a post in which I asked for help today ! I'm unsubscribing forthwith as it makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't know what i did wrong. I only asked for help. People were good enough to respond. But if others think I'm wasting valuable time, then I don't want to be here.
This.

This is exactly why downvoting should be eliminated.

dejo
Dec 8, 2011, 12:55 PM
Just been into user control panel but can't find any option to unsubscribe - how do you unsubscribe?

MacRumors FAQ: How do I cancel my account? (http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:MacRumors_FAQ#How_do_I_cancel_my_account.3F)

Sabrina2000
Dec 8, 2011, 01:09 PM
thanks; seems like you can't actually cancel though, you just have to stop logging in, unsubscribe from thread update notifications, edit contact details, and allow the account to become inactive. Would have preferred a cancel option.

mobilehaathi
Dec 8, 2011, 01:11 PM
This.

This is exactly why downvoting should be eliminated.

That is quite unfortunate, and I hope s/he reconsiders.

On the other hand, I would humbly suggest that s/he is taking it way too personally. The internet is not a friendly place: much less friendly than two downvotes on an otherwise friendly community website.

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 01:18 PM
The internet is not a friendly place: much less friendly than two downvotes on an otherwise friendly community website.
Eliminating the downvotes is a small and easy step MacRumors can take to make it a little less unfriendly.

gnasher729
Dec 8, 2011, 03:02 PM
I've just noticed 2 downvotes on a post in which I asked for help today ! I'm unsubscribing forthwith as it makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't know what i did wrong. I only asked for help. People were good enough to respond. But if others think I'm wasting valuable time, then I don't want to be here.

If you don't know what you did wrong, what makes you think you did anything wrong at all? Votes, up or down, often say more about the voter than about the post that was voted on.

Eidorian
Dec 8, 2011, 04:30 PM
Add my "upvote" for the removal of "downvotes". I seriously hate them, and find them to be a big pain.

Seriously, the only time I find them useful is when I laugh when I see *LTD* has -20 votes to his post. And that's a really lousy reason for wanting something (and it goes against forum rules of singling someone specific out).I remember a few Page 1 adventures from months ago from users that wanted it in the first place. Now I see them get down voted to no end...

Such is life.

SDColorado
Dec 8, 2011, 05:14 PM
Name one election, poll, or contest - anywhere - that utilizes the concept of down voting.

I have certainly seen polls that use the Agree/Disagree or Approve/Disapprove format. Such as "Do you Approve or Disapprove of the job the President is doing." Those types of polls are not at all uncommon. Selecting Disagree or Disapprove seems to me to be akin to down voting. I don't know how useful that type of poll would be, if the only option you had was Approve or Agree.

Also, there are those opinion polls where you can select from 1-10 wether you agree or disagree. Selecting 1 would also seem akin to a down vote.

I am not sure why people get so worked up about the votes. It isn't as though it affects your forum membership where you get a prize if you get the most up votes or kicked off the forum for accumulating a number of down votes.

One of the local newspapers here uses a Thumbs Up / Thumbs Down vote system on replies to articles, with a couple of differences that might be nice to see implemented. First, they tally and show both the up votes and the down votes. So instead of seeing a post that has -8, you would instead maybe see a post that has +6 / -8. I think maybe that is more accurate than simply the +/- number alone. Also when you look at someones profile, it tells you how many thumbs up and thumbs down votes you have received and how many of each you have given.

But again, what difference does it really make. It is all academic and provided for little else than interest and a little amusement.

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 05:16 PM
I have certainly seen polls that use the Agree/Disagree or Approve/Disapprove format.
Yeah I had asked that question in relation to political elections/contests, since someone started comparing the voting system here to the US political voting system. But you're right, opinion polls definitely do use the approve/disapprove model.

nouveau
Dec 8, 2011, 08:06 PM
SMGD1, you're a minority, there's always one or two people who don't like the downvoting.

When that's the case, please refer to hiding it or ignoring it, not that hard, life goes on

b24pgg
Dec 8, 2011, 08:09 PM
SMGD1, you're a minority, there's always one or two people who don't like the downvoting.

When that's the case, please refer to hiding it or ignoring it, not that hard, life goes on
Sorry but you're wrong. The poll results from this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1153058) indicate that more people want to remove the downvote button or voting altogether, than those who want to keep it.

Plus as mentioned above, MacRumors is not a democracy. Majority/minority opinion is moot.

srf4real
Dec 8, 2011, 08:29 PM
Sorry but you're wrong. The poll results from this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1153058) indicate that more people want to remove the downvote button or voting altogether, than those who want to keep it.

Plus as mentioned above, MacRumors is not a democracy. Majority/minority opinion is moot.

Sorry but you're wrong. I downvoted your post too. I always downvote people that give an arrogant response or "speak" to others demeaningly or argue a point to death when they're obviously wrong. Check the poll again..;)

Currently tied.

al256
Dec 8, 2011, 10:45 PM
SMGD1, you're a minority, there's always one or two people who don't like the downvoting.

When that's the case, please refer to hiding it or ignoring it, not that hard, life goes on

Three days on this site (maybe four based on your residence) seems like such a short time to form an informed opinion on this subject, single out a user and assess that only "one or two people" don't like downvoting.

Maybe I'm wrong for thinking this way... Less than 100 hours of being a member seems too premature to really discuss this site topic. Feel free to downvote me BTW and welcome to the site.


Just to throw in my own two cents:

The ability to downvote other users' posts is helpful if this site expands in the direction of SpyMac after their multimedia upgrade. It helps to sort out information from a large amount of ever increasing users.

On the other hand, MacRumors has had a recognizable community that keeps growing. But I don't believe the downvoting of others' posts has done much to foster a community attitude.

I'm just waiting to see what happens to this site in the next few years. I hope it will still be recognizable and worth visiting.

s15119
Dec 11, 2011, 04:35 AM
I posted two examples, just two posts below his. See post #14 and pay better attention next time.

i read that post. you failed to show the downvoting was done inappropriately. Just cause it got your panties in a bunch, doesn't mean it was inappropriate.

b24pgg
Dec 11, 2011, 07:35 AM
i read that post. you failed to show the downvoting was done inappropriately.
The post is a tutorial on how to unlock a Verizon iPhone 4S. It has 8 downvotes. Perhaps you can explain how that is appropriate, because any reasonable individual would conclude that 8 downvotes on that post makes no sense.

maril1111
Dec 11, 2011, 07:55 AM
Downvoting doesn't degrade anyboys post nor opinion, unlike the youtube spam marking where the opinion gets hidden.So I think it would be useless to get rid of downvoting just don't take it personal and you will be fine.

srf4real
Dec 11, 2011, 08:23 AM
Everything was fine until the iPhone babies came along. They are a whiny, lazy bunch. Many of whom have never bothered to do a search on their own in their entire lives, but would rather clutter a useful forum with the same lame question over, and over, and over... or better yet they'd rather argue rudely and offensively that their mis-info is correct when it has already been proven otherwise.

Some kids just need a little smacking around ya know! @downvote.com:cool:

kalsta
Dec 12, 2011, 09:16 PM
Based on my observations, people primarily do not downvote based on the quality of a post; they downvote based on whether they personally agree or disagree with the post content. I've seen well reasoned, thoughtful posts be downvoted into oblivion just because they expressed negative opinions

I'm somewhat undecided on the whole issue, but your post was most certainly well reasoned and thoughtful. And it seems the voters are out to prove you right. Oh the irony huh! ;)

vrDrew
Dec 13, 2011, 03:32 PM
I'd have to second (third, fourth, two hundredth..) the idea of canning the up/down voting system. It seems to provide very little value to anyone, and simply encourages bad behavior.

Apart from providing a way of ordering posts on the front page, there really seems to be no upside to it. And a lot of downsides. These have probably been listed before (bad me, not reading every post in this thread..) but here goes:

1) There seems to be very little relationship between the quality of most posts and its up/down vote score. I've seen well thought out, well-written, factual and informative posts get zero - or worse negative votes.

2) People seem perfectly happy down-voting purely factual posts. The Site Administrators simply put up a news story about something happening in the Apple world - and it gets a slew of down votes. That ought to be a warning that something is wrong.

3) Its use seems to vary tremendously by user. Most sensible people wouldn't waste their time "voting" up or down somebody else's opinion. But get into one of the iOS vs Android threads, and fanatics on either side of the aisle seem to go to town. Conversely, I've seen excellent posts, how-to's, discussions , etc. in the more technical area of the site languish, unloved (or un-hated, if thats possible) with little, if any, feedback.

4) It seems to frankly discourage honest and forthright discussion. I've seen plenty of respectful, reasoned posts down-voted by very heavy margins, without any of the down voters bothering to have the courtesy to address the issues raised.

5) It encourages a "mob mentality." Ultimately, the real value of any forum is about discussing unusual, novel ideas. Apple Computer itself was founded on the idea that individuals could own and operate a computer. At the time this was a radical idea. And I'm quite sure that a forum of 1970s-era computer professionals would have (if anyone bothered to ask them) would have scoffed at the very idea.

6) It frankly discourages good posts, while doing little to weed out junk. If someone spends ten or twenty minutes putting together a cogently-argued, well-researched, well-cited post - and receives in response a torrent of down-voted from people disagreeing with the premise - its quite frankly infuriating. It makes anyone with the slightest degree of writing or thinking ability seriously question whether contributing to this forum is worth their time.

Conversely, if someone posts a piece of pandering - but ultimately meaningless blather, on the lines of "knowledge is good" - it can garner any amount of up voting.


I've been reading this forum for a couple of years. And from my, albeit limited, perspective - the up/down voting system has contributed to a dreadful lowering of the standard of debate.

Please consider scrapping it.

b24pgg
Dec 13, 2011, 07:18 PM
^^^ excellent post - agree 100%

srf4real
Dec 13, 2011, 08:13 PM
I'd have to second (third, fourth, two hundredth..) the idea of canning the up/down voting system. It seems to provide very little value to anyone, and simply encourages bad behavior.

Apart from providing a way of ordering posts on the front page, there really seems to be no upside to it. And a lot of downsides. These have probably been listed before (bad me, not reading every post in this thread..) but here goes:

1) There seems to be very little relationship between the quality of most posts and its up/down vote score. I've seen well thought out, well-written, factual and informative posts get zero - or worse negative votes.

2) People seem perfectly happy down-voting purely factual posts. The Site Administrators simply put up a news story about something happening in the Apple world - and it gets a slew of down votes. That ought to be a warning that something is wrong.

3) Its use seems to vary tremendously by user. Most sensible people wouldn't waste their time "voting" up or down somebody else's opinion. But get into one of the iOS vs Android threads, and fanatics on either side of the aisle seem to go to town. Conversely, I've seen excellent posts, how-to's, discussions , etc. in the more technical area of the site languish, unloved (or un-hated, if thats possible) with little, if any, feedback.

4) It seems to frankly discourage honest and forthright discussion. I've seen plenty of respectful, reasoned posts down-voted by very heavy margins, without any of the down voters bothering to have the courtesy to address the issues raised.

5) It encourages a "mob mentality." Ultimately, the real value of any forum is about discussing unusual, novel ideas. Apple Computer itself was founded on the idea that individuals could own and operate a computer. At the time this was a radical idea. And I'm quite sure that a forum of 1970s-era computer professionals would have (if anyone bothered to ask them) would have scoffed at the very idea.

6) It frankly discourages good posts, while doing little to weed out junk. If someone spends ten or twenty minutes putting together a cogently-argued, well-researched, well-cited post - and receives in response a torrent of down-voted from people disagreeing with the premise - its quite frankly infuriating. It makes anyone with the slightest degree of writing or thinking ability seriously question whether contributing to this forum is worth their time.

Conversely, if someone posts a piece of pandering - but ultimately meaningless blather, on the lines of "knowledge is good" - it can garner any amount of up voting.


I've been reading this forum for a couple of years. And from my, albeit limited, perspective - the up/down voting system has contributed to a dreadful lowering of the standard of debate.

Please consider scrapping it.
I'd be willing to give it up just to keep thoughtful folks like you around.

I never sat here and said "gee, wish I had a vote button to use as I skim this thread.." before the implementation. But I have found it useful for my own evil purposes.:p

kalsta
Dec 15, 2011, 10:39 PM
6) It frankly discourages good posts, while doing little to weed out junk. If someone spends ten or twenty minutes putting together a cogently-argued, well-researched, well-cited post - and receives in response a torrent of down-voted from people disagreeing with the premise - its quite frankly infuriating. It makes anyone with the slightest degree of writing or thinking ability seriously question whether contributing to this forum is worth their time.

Conversely, if someone posts a piece of pandering - but ultimately meaningless blather, on the lines of "knowledge is good" - it can garner any amount of up voting.

Perhaps voting was introduced to reduce the proliferation of comments like 'This ^^', etc. (I don't mean your comment srf4real, I mean comments which literally just say 'This ^^'. Although sometimes you really want to let someone know who is agreeing with them, right SGMD1! ;)) Given that it's human nature for people to want to express an opinion (be it well-informed or otherwise) voting, at very least, allows people to scratch that itch. Perhaps it makes it too easy to scratch the itch? Perhaps it encourages people to scratch at MR until the scab comes off and… Okay, better not take the analogy too far.

They could allow people to only vote positive, as SGMD1 suggests, which allows everyone to scratch in a more polite manner. But would it be any less infuriating to see your well-reasoned comment stay on zero votes, while the guy who writes 'And so it begins', or 'You're holding it wrong' lands a dozen or so positive votes? Maybe? :)

b24pgg
Jul 16, 2012, 11:17 PM
THANK YOU arn for getting rid of the downvoting!

unlinked
Jul 17, 2012, 04:48 AM
Yeah I had asked that question in relation to political elections/contests, since someone started comparing the voting system here to the US political voting system. But you're right, opinion polls definitely do use the approve/disapprove model.

I have seen it used in polls where only one person is running for the position.

----------

THANK YOU arn for getting rid of the downvoting!

Did you just upvote your own post? Seems improper to me. Ban upvoting!!!!!!!!

maflynn
Jul 17, 2012, 06:15 AM
[MOD NOTE]

arn has made it clear that he's still experimenting, and since pretty much all viewpoints that can be expressed, have been expressed between this thread and the other downvoting thread.