Apple Hater

[iGary]

iPod, Cut and Run, English And Ford 500

By Orson Scott Card

I don’t know about you, but I’m about fed up with all the free – and ridiculous – advertising and publicity Apple Computers gets. If they decided to bottle air and sell it, calling it, no doubt, “PowerAir” or “AirMac” or “AirPod,” they’d claim that they had invented air. Then all the articles about the new MacAir would treat that claim as if it were true and suddenly start treating other air-packagers as mere imitators, playing “catch-up” with Apple.

I remember years ago, when Apple came out with their PowerBook notebook computer. I was at a meeting with an extraordinarily dumb young movie producer who kept going on and on about all the cool things his PowerBook could do. “It can sign on the internet and get email! I can carry it with me on planes and it runs on batteries!”

Finally I got fed up and just showed him my Toshiba laptop. “I can do all those things, and this computer cost me a thousand dollars less than yours.”

It was a cruel thing to do, I thought, to take the wind out of his sails like that. But no, I had forgotten: He was an Apple user! He gave me a withering look and said, “Yes, but mine is an Apple.”

Well, yes, but he said it as if that were a good thing.

Think about it. All the rigid, corporate-determined uniformity and buy-it-from-us-or-drop-dead attitude of Microsoft, but you have to buy your hardware from them, too. I watch Apple users attempt to manipulate their clunky operating system – click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, just to get where I can go with a single action on my keyboard – and I hear them raving on and on about what wonderful things Apple is finally deigning to make available to them, but which PC users have had for years, and it all makes me vaguely sad.

“Windows crashes all the time,” they say with a smirk. Then, when they’re talking among themselves and they don’t think you’re listening, they reveal the evil truth: Macs crash too. And Mac software has bugs and flaws and security gaps and stupidity built in, just like Windows.

What Macs don’t have is any competition. Once you’ve bought into the hype and forked over your money, they’ve got you and you can’t get free without completely replacing everything.

The same thing has happened now with the iPod. I had been using wonderful MP3 players for years. My Rio Riot held 20 gigs of music. My little Panasonic E-Wear, and later my Rio Cali, let me take incredible amounts of music with me when I exercised or took long flights.

Then the iPod comes out and it doesn’t do anything that I needed and didn’t already have. Not only that, but it was deeply ugly, a plain ivory-colored box with pathetic controls that looked like it should hold generic earswabs. Compared to my Rio Riot, it was a piece of junk and looked like a piece of junk.

And now it seems to have taken over the world. Everything is geared toward iPods. I still have MP3 players with more capacity and better interface than the iPod, and people talk and write as if the iPod had invented the whole class of machine, and all the others were just imitations.

Even the current PC World magazine has been suckered into this Apple mystique. They had a “brave and daring” front-of-book essay about how PC makers ought to learn to do things more like Apple. And do you know what it came down to? The colors and shape of the cheap plastic they wrap their products in.

Yeah, that’s right. They make the ugliest, silliest, most embarrassing-looking cheap plastic products in the industry, charge half again as much as you’d pay for a cleanly designed, functional looking product, and they are given credit for design!

I know what will happen, of course. A lot of smug Apple owners will write me taunting letters about how Windows crashes all the time. Old news, kiddies. My XP doesn’t crash at all. And I have about a hundred times as much software to choose from, and can customize my own machine (despite the best efforts of Microsoft) a thousand times more than you can, and I’m paying less for it, and it looks like I actually intend to do serious work with it.

As for your iPod, I just have to shake my head and laugh. There are much better – and better-looking – products out there, and I already own some of them. But you go on believing that yours is the best in the world. That’s what Apple depends on. You’ll get into the harness, they’ll put the blinders on you, and you’ll think you’re pulling the queen’s carriage instead of the old farm wagon you’re dragging along.

Editor in Chief: johnhammer@rhinotimes.com :D

[~Shard~]

Ignorance is an amazing thing... :cool:

[Lancetx]

As for your iPod, I just have to shake my head and laugh. There are much better – and better-looking – products out there, and I already own some of them. But you go on believing that yours is the best in the world. That’s what Apple depends on. You’ll get into the harness, they’ll put the blinders on you, and you’ll think you’re pulling the queen’s carriage instead of the old farm wagon you’re dragging along.

Funny, if I take his quote above and simply change the word iPod to "Windows" and change Apple to "Microsoft", then this statement would perfectly describe the writer of this sorry excuse of a story. :D

[Blue Velvet]

Windows fanboy and crap scifi writer gets rattled by Apple...

Good. :D

[Manzana]

Yeah, that’s right. They make the ugliest, silliest, most embarrassing-looking cheap plastic products in the industry

thought he was talking about *ELL there for a sec. this guy must desperately want traffic at his site, because one thing I know is that when you post ignorant tripe like that on the web, mac users make u pay!

sic 'em boys

[noel4r]

Oh, it's so obvious, he wrote that to get some attention.

[IJ Reilly]

The man should stick to writing bad science fiction.

Oh, right... he did.

[Balin64]

Thanks for posting the whole crapload instead of a link: now we won't give his site any traffic...

As far as what he wrote: Windows lovers are like tea-kettles lately... good. Bastards.

[WinterMute]

This from the man who writes the worst populist trash sci-fi on the shelves.

Douglas Adams is spinning in his grave... :mad:

[Maxiseller]

You're right - he did it for attention.

Its angering though no?

[Bern]

He must have written this as a result of not getting his finance approved for purchase of a G5, which he had envisaged producing better SciFi strips on.

But alas, he's now stuck with his winbox and the garbage is still flowing.

[Applespider]

Where'd that yawn smiley go to after the last Bill Gates FUD thread...?

[Diatribe]

Ignorance is an amazing thing... :cool:

Couldn't have said it better myself. It is not only amazing though, it is quite amusing too. :D

[MontyZ]

It would be angering if every single thing he said about Apple wasn't so over the top as to make you laugh out loud instead. With 3-4% market share, Apple has somehow managed to "take over the world." Sounds like the kind of statistics we get from our government these days. ;)

[Daveway]

It's great that we've turned into the truth police of the mac world. ;)

Everyone attack his inbox!

[buryyourbrideau]

this guy is an idiot.

why the hell does he even care about apple then if all these other companies make such amazing products. i didnt know plain @$$ black boxes with words on them were better looking than apple products.

stick to your xtra problems and crappy winbox machines. youre not even wanted here. i dont think many people are. too many complain about having to learn a new machine. well how would you like it if everywhere you went, everyone had an apple machine. then you wouldnt feel so unique and cool. haha

my two cents. proud to be an apple kinda guy

[James Philp]

This HAS to be a joke right?
Aside from anything else, most people I know who are dual-platformers (i.e. use both platforms on a daily basis) say they would take OS X over windows any day.
I initially felt like going through the thread quote by quote, but then decided it's a waste of time!
To think I quite like some of his books!
If anything the quote:

But you go on believing that yours is the best in the world. That’s what Apple depends on. You’ll get into the harness, they’ll put the blinders on you,

Applies to him more than any mac Zealot i've ever heard!

[rickvanr]

wow.

Aside from the Toshiba laptop, I wish he'd provide examples. MP3 players that are better then the iPod? Where? Oh, and he must have a 61GB MP3 player if his has more space then an iPod. Apple computers must be ugly because they aren't big square boxes with no curves.

Show me a computer that is more beautiful then a quicksilver G4 or any other mac after the B&W G3, and I'll eat my shoes.

[macOSX-tastic]

iPod.....Ugly?

BLASPHEMER!!!!!

I CANNOT BELEIVE he said that....words fail me.....not only is he stupid, he's ignorant too..... :D

[James Philp]

To be honest, all the quotes sounded like they come from the days before OS X - which is going back a bit now!

[sethypoo]

This from the man who writes the worst populist trash sci-fi on the shelves.

Douglas Adams is spinning in his grave... :mad:

I'm sorry, but I and those who chose the Hugo awards disagree that Ender's Game is "trash." That book is a wonderful piece of literature.

But I agree, I wonder where a man as intelligent as OSC is got the guts (and stupidity) up to write something that vain and inflammatory. Oh well, he's clearly hypnotized by the spinning Windows. :rolleyes:

[superfunkomatic]

one word - denial.

this type of crap shouldn't upset anyone, if you're really that happy being stupid, using silly and stupid products, carry on.

edit: zoinks, just looked at the source of the information, it's not like this person is writing for a "real" publication. maybe i'd value their opinion more if it wasn't written from jerkwater, usa (no disrespect to the real jerkwater, usa) ;)

[jsw]

I liked "Ender's Game" too much to allow this article to flavor my opinion of Card.

It seems that, although he has an admitted love of well-crafted English (see the entire column he wrote), he has no ability to discern or admire well-designed physical products. Practicality is his sole basis for decision making, and, in fact, he can write just as efficiently and more cheaply on a Windows box, so, for him, it works.

Later he writes:
After seven years and 140,000 miles of driving around in my dark blue Crown Victoria, I finally decided enough was enough. The trouble was, the car was still running beautifully and the biggest repairs had been to replace the motors that ran the power windows. What can you do when your eminently practical car just won’t die?
He ended up buying a Ford 500.

Unless he has a gambling or drug problem, Card is not by an means a poor man. He's just cheap and practical.

As someone who works on Win2K/XP during the day and OS X at night, I can't honestly say that Windows systems are horrible. They work fine. They just have no beauty and no soul. Some people don't care. I do.

[IJ Reilly]

Not to divert this thread too much... but science fiction as literature? Now don't get me wrong, I've read a lot of the stuff, and like it -- but literature? Let's not kid ourselves -- hardly any science fiction reaches that lofty goal.

[sethypoo]

Not to divert this thread too much... but science fiction as literature? Now don't get me wrong, I've read a lot of the stuff, and like it -- but [i]literature?[i/] Let's not kid ourselves -- hardly any science fiction reaches that lofty goal.

What you're saying only applies if you can specifically define literature. I myself feel that literature is whatever each individual makes of it, nothing more. It takes effort to write good sci-fi; to write it off as not being literature is incorrect.

[IJ Reilly]

"Perhaps it's impossible to wear an identity without becoming what you pretend to be." -- OS Card, "Ender's Game"


"Be careful who you pretend to be because you are who you pretend to be." -- Kurt Vonnegut, "Mother Night" (1961)

Hmmm. A real original thinker, just as I suspected.

[IJ Reilly]

What you're saying only applies if you can specifically define literature. I myself feel that literature is whatever each individual makes of it, nothing more. It takes effort to write good sci-fi; to write it off as not being literature is incorrect.

No, not really. Literature has a definition, and it isn't relative, and it isn't about making an effort.

[sourcemonkey]

the problem with free speech is that complete idiots like this are allowed to spew their neuroses onto our laps. this isn't about a rational criticism of apple products or their users: he's lost his self-control on this one.

[jsw]

No, not really. Literature has a definition, and it isn't relative, and it isn't about making an effort.

From the New Oxford American Dictionary:
literature |?lit(?)r? ch ?r; -? ch o?r; -?t(y)o?r| noun 1 written works, esp. those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit : a great work of literature. • books and writings published on a particular subject : the literature on environmental epidemiology. • the writings of a country or period : early French literature. • leaflets and other printed matter used to advertise products or give advice. 2 the production or profession of writing.
Science fiction is as much "literature" as any other genre. By definition, it doesn't have to be good.

Edit: the pronunciation didn't translate into the post....

[jsw]

"Perhaps it's impossible to wear an identity without becoming what you pretend to be." -- OS Card, "Ender's Game"


"Be careful who you pretend to be because you are who you pretend to be." -- Kurt Vonnegut, "Mother Night" (1961)

Hmmm. A real original thinker, just as I suspected.
Not exactly the same ideas. Read the quotes again.

[Mr. Anderson]

Everybody is allowed their own opinion....but he just comes across as a whiner. Computers are computers and it really doesn't matter what it is as long as you can get your work done and you're happy with it.

Bleh, this is such a circular argument and it just keeps going and going and going....

D

[jsw]

Everybody is allowed their own opinion....but he just comes across as a whiner.
Oh, I completely agree. He was quite whiney. My point was that he wasn't wrong per se - just as opinionated and blinded as the Mac zealots he was attacking.

[Inspector Lee]

This from the man who writes the worst populist trash sci-fi on the shelves.

Douglas Adams is spinning in his grave... :mad:

And PK Dick probably wouldn't wipe himself with this guy or his dossier. But I've never read his work and I don't want to come off as a xenophobe so I'll stop.

One word sums up his diatribe though - sad.

[IJ Reilly]

From the New Oxford American Dictionary:

Science fiction is as much "literature" as any other genre. By definition, it doesn't have to be good.

Edit: the pronunciation didn't translate into the post....

The qualification isn't the genre, it's whether it's recognized as having "superior and lasting artistic merit." As I said, I've read plenty of science fiction over the years and I think much of it is great writing. But I don't kid myself that it's great art. Very little of anything rises to that level.

[IJ Reilly]

Not exactly the same ideas. Read the quotes again.

I have, and they're nearly identical IMO. I recognized the thought immediately, having read the Vonnegut book probably 30 years ago.

[Chubypig]

This guy though the Rio Riot looked better than the ipod? Let's compare:

[James Philp]

IJ,
"Perhaps it's impossible" compared to "you are"
ARE different.
One is a speculation, the other a metaphor (or statement).
If anything OS Card just watered down the Vonnegut statement.

That doesn't stop Enders Game being a good book though.
OS Card's ideas of space travel (without the philosophical "philotic links" stuff - i mean the relative spped stuff) are perhaps the most realistic in the Sifi genre.

Literature or not? H'mm let's take the second definition:
"2 the production or profession of writing" this it most certainly is.
To me, literature means novels, not graphic novels or textbooks.

[tech4all]

This guy though the Rio Riot looked better than the ipod? Let's compare:

Well that is his opinion, so we really can't put him down on his opinions. Although I did laugh aloud when I read that opinion :rolleyes: :D


EDIT: Wait that thing on the left is a digital music player? :eek: looks like the old GameGear from Sega :eek: :rolleyes:

[MontyZ]

This guy though the Rio Riot looked better than the ipod? Let's compare:
I guess the writer of that "review" prefers devices that require two hands to operate intead of one. That Rio is fugly.

[tangent23]

Not to divert this thread too much... but science fiction as literature? Now don't get me wrong, I've read a lot of the stuff, and like it -- but literature? Let's not kid ourselves -- hardly any science fiction reaches that lofty goal.

Hardly any writing in general could be considered literature as you define it, let alone science fiction.

[Daveway]

Does anyone get the idea this is a joke? His arguments are so bogus and out there it seems like a joke. Remember the one about the Mac mini?

[MacAztec]

Although I don't agree with what he thinks about Apple, I love this guy's books. Ender's Game, and Ender's Shadow, both awesome stories. I recommend them.

[TreeHugger]

author of this egregious article is obviously lost in the dark and probably will never see the light... :(

[IJ Reilly]

Hardly any writing in general could be considered literature as you define it, let alone science fiction.

Correctamundo! But not as I define it, as the dictionary defines it. Unless of course you want to use the broadest definition that includes all professionally written word as literature, in which case I'm sure Mr. Card's work compares very favorably to Apple's latest press release.

[Maedus]

"Perhaps it's impossible to wear an identity without becoming what you pretend to be." -- OS Card, "Ender's Game"


"Be careful who you pretend to be because you are who you pretend to be." -- Kurt Vonnegut, "Mother Night" (1961)

Hmmm. A real original thinker, just as I suspected.

Haha, as soon as I read his article, I thought of the Ender's Game quote I've seen as a signature. Actually the idea that Card and Vonnegut reference goes back at least until the Elizabethan period if not longer ago. I remember reading about it in a Shakespeare class about how the Elizabethan's were preoccupied with masks and becoming what you pretend to be. For example, since Hamlet pretended to be crazy for so long, you begin to wonder (and an Elizabethan audience would definitely wonder) if he is beginning to be crazy for real as seen in the callous and extremely odd way he treated Polonius's death and the puns he whipped out on where he hid the body.

As for Science Fiction being literature, I think even with a strict definition that some Sci Fi actually holds up to the definition of literature. Even universities are beginning to see Science Fiction as worthy of the curriculum especially for its social criticism and the way its experimenting with literary forms. Its a maturing genre form that is trying to gain acceptance and i can understand it's hard to appreciate this art form as literature in its highest since yet since we are only speculating on if it will be a genre that will survive the ages, but I think it will succeed and in a hundred years it will be a part of the curriculum for an English survey courses on the 1900's and the 2000's. And think, prose fiction used to not be considered literature in its day because poetry was the form of choice for high art.

[russed]

is he looking at his mp3 player through beer goggles?

[sourcemonkey]

IJ,
"Perhaps it's impossible" compared to "you are"
ARE different.
One is a speculation, the other a metaphor (or statement).
If anything OS Card just watered down the Vonnegut statement.

That doesn't stop Enders Game being a good book though.
OS Card's ideas of space travel (without the philosophical "philotic links" stuff - i mean the relative spped stuff) are perhaps the most realistic in the Sifi genre.

Literature or not? H'mm let's take the second definition:
"2 the production or profession of writing" this it most certainly is.
To me, literature means novels, not graphic novels or textbooks.

I'm sorry but i have to say the quotes may well be different but the idea that they are expressing is the same. I'd be amazed if he generated that quote without (at best subconsciously) having read Vonnegut. But infact, that shouldn't really attract criticism.

Metaphor?! (consult your dictionary widget and your 'MR guide to linguistic fascism') ;)

Literature? well, you could say that a science fiction author is engaged in a literary profession, but what he produces would not be literature unless it wins "superior and lasting artistic merit." the second definition is being incorrectly deployed here in my opinion. :confused:

[ReanimationLP]

This guy though the Rio Riot looked better than the ipod? Let's compare:

Isnt that the MP3 player thats the size of a Game Gear? I wouldnt wanna walk around outside with that in my pocket, making it look like im really happy to see everyone. :p

Cant wait for my iPod to arrive. :)

[Kaiser Phoenix]

The thing is Windows doesnt run Logic...He says the apple is ugly, well I think apple's are very well designed, its very subjective, but I think that Apple concentrates on more non-computer aspects, like even the bottom of a laptop for example looks very clean and tidy on a powerbook whereas on a toshiba for example, it just looks like...well, its the bottom so who cares kinda look. As for being better products in terms of ipods, yeah ofcourse I agree with him. The ipod isnt superior at all, I mean i think the screen sux, the battery life is **** and it cant play WMA. BUT, whats important is that people arnt looking for MP3 players, they are looking for iPods. Its actually different, in terms of marketing positioning. Like I think for example, Mizuno running shoes are probably the best in the world for marathons and stuff, as many pros use it. But would you wear a Mizuno just coz its superior to other shoes? No, you would wear Nike, Converse etc coz it looks better and and you like the "design". So obviously, its not that customers always want superior products, just putting out the best MP3 player isnt going to sell, what is needed is differentiation as Porter put it. The guy who wrote the article should take some business classes!

[IJ Reilly]

Haha, as soon as I read his article, I thought of the Ender's Game quote I've seen as a signature. Actually the idea that Card and Vonnegut reference goes back at least until the Elizabethan period if not longer ago. I remember reading about it in a Shakespeare class about how the Elizabethan's were preoccupied with masks and becoming what you pretend to be. For example, since Hamlet pretended to be crazy for so long, you begin to wonder (and an Elizabethan audience would definitely wonder) if he is beginning to be crazy for real as seen in the callous and extremely odd way he treated Polonius's death and the puns he whipped out on where he hid the body.

As for Science Fiction being literature, I think even with a strict definition that some Sci Fi actually holds up to the definition of literature. Even universities are beginning to see Science Fiction as worthy of the curriculum especially for its social criticism and the way its experimenting with literary forms. Its a maturing genre form that is trying to gain acceptance and i can understand it's hard to appreciate this art form as literature in its highest since yet since we are only speculating on if it will be a genre that will survive the ages, but I think it will succeed and in a hundred years it will be a part of the curriculum for an English survey courses on the 1900's and the 2000's. And think, prose fiction used to not be considered literature in its day because poetry was the form of choice for high art.

Right. I'm not claiming the idea is entirely original to Vonnegut, but the Card quote is little more than a rewording of the Vonnegut line from a book he published about 15 years before Card wrote "Enders." Call me a cynic, but I suspect Card was more likely thinking of Vonnegut than Shakespeare when he typed those words.

Nothing inherently prevents science fiction from being regarded as literature, but it's too early to say which authors and which books will make the cut. As much as I've enjoyed reading science fiction, especially during my teens and 20s, when I go back an look at these books, the flaws become pretty obvious. The best were fun to read and imaginative -- but "great books" they are not. And I'm including some of the top authors in the genre: Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Ellison, Niven, etc.

[apple2991]

Even if he is completely serious in his criticisms, the man IS Mormon.

[rt_brained]

And I have about a hundred times as much software to choose fromI absolutely love to hear this comment, because it has so little relevance to me or most of my Mac-using friends. I've never had the desire to waste HD space on games on my Mac and have always preferred to play games on dedicated game machines. I spend enough time and energy ripping through Photoshop and Illustrator putting my computer through its paces that when it's time to play games, I'd much rather take a recess and jump to my gaming device and my large screen TV. My Mac is for work and my game machines are for playing games.

But if you're like most PC weenies, the most you do is work in MS Office, write emails and surf the internet—so of course you're eager to push the limits of your computer the only way you know how...by playing loading it up with processor-burning, RAM-hogging video games.

Very funny though to hear an argument about the aesthetics of product design from the side of the fence where 99.9% of users think "feature" stickers are part of a product's design and get pissed if you try to peel them off.

[MontyZ]

Even if he is completely serious in his criticisms, the man IS Mormon.
Do Mormons hate Apple?

[Sharewaredemon]

Very funny though to hear an argument about the aesthetics of product design from the side of the fence where 99.9% of users think "feature" stickers are part of a product's design and get pissed if you try to peel them off.


That has to be the funniest thing thing I have read in a very long time.

Thank you.

[Applespider]

Very funny though to hear an argument about the aesthetics of product design from the side of the fence where 99.9% of users think "feature" stickers are part of a product's design and get pissed if you try to peel them off.

How true! :rolleyes: I've never understood why there are so many stickers or why no-one peels them off (unless they leave some sticky residue on the plastic that might look uglier?)

[Peyote]

The qualification isn't the genre, it's whether it's recognized as having "superior and lasting artistic merit." As I said, I've read plenty of science fiction over the years and I think much of it is great writing. But I don't kid myself that it's great art. Very little of anything rises to that level.


As you stated, the definition of "literature" appears based on one's personal opinion. While I won't argue with your point, I will say that while you can call something art, and something else non-art, you can't decide for anyone else what constitutes a work of art or literature, and you can't generalize and say that any book classified as Sci-Fi automatically cannot be "literature", as you have not read all works of Sci-Fi. It appears some of us here are arguing opinions, which is fruitless, but I think to say that Sci-Fi can't be literature is a little close-minded. Reminds me of somehting Bush would say.

Incidentally, my wife wrote her thesis on this very subject, which is why it piques my interest. I believe the title of her thesis was, "The Canonization of Science Fiction, Magical Realism, and Horror as Literary Genres" or something like that. She worked on it and researched for a year and came to the obvious conclusion: Literature, like Art is defined by ones tastes. The exclusion of a piece of fictional writing from the classification of being a piece of Literature, simply because it falls into one of those three genres, is closed minded. It's an interesting topic nonetheless.

You must also remember that we are basing this discussion on Literary Genres. Just like music, genres change, shift, and evolve. Let's not get into their definitions, but simply remember when we say something like "Hardly any Science Fiction is worth being thought of as Literature" (not your exact quote of course) that you are basing that statement on your own definition of Science fiction, as well as your own definition of Literature.

I happen to hold the belief that there are some works of fiction in the Science Fiction genre (as I define it) that are at a level of Art or Literature (as I define it).

To get back to the subject of the thread: This author is a jackass. :p :p

[rt_brained]

Do Mormons hate Apple?Well, it IS the forbidden fruit.

[IJ Reilly]

As you stated, the definition of "literature" appears based on one's personal opinion.

Nope, never said that. Literature is the body of work which stands the test of time and is widely considered to be "great." Also I clearly never said that science fiction automatically can't be literature, only that to my knowledge no science fiction author or work had made that cut yet.

Anyway, I do agree -- the author of this piece is the southern part of a northbound horse.

[James Philp]

What about "Brave New World"?
That is pretty dedicated sci-fi and had entered the public consciousness. I think many people would regard it as a work of literature.
Enders game IS good too.
(Not sure about "children of the mind" though!)

All this is so off topic anyway!
OS Card does have some zealotic points of view! If he'd bought a Mac, hated it and gone back to the wonderful world of PC he'd have more of a leg to stand on. Right now he just sounds like a jealous bitter person who made wrong choices he's not prepared to admit to!

[Peyote]

Nope, never said that. Literature is the body of work which stands the test of time and is widely considered to be "great." Also I clearly never said that science fiction automatically can't be literature, only that to my knowledge no science fiction author or work had made that cut yet.

Anyway, I do agree -- the author of this piece is the southern part of a northbound horse.

Forgive me, I thought you had said that the definition of literature is based on opinion. Regardless of whether you did or didn't, the statement is true.

You can't go by a simple dictionary definition. IMHO, Literature is to books as art is to paintings. In the art world, a painting doesn't have to "stand the test of time" to be considered Art. Nor does it have to be widely considered to be great. Those are definitions written by people with opinions, and how is it that their definition of literature is more valid than anyone else's? Simple because you agree with it? Hardly.

You are right, clearly you didn't say that Sci-Fi writing automatically cannot be literature, but you certainly eluded to it, or something similar anyway. If I'm wrong that's fine...then you must be saying that some Science Fiction can be called Literature. But let's not kid ourselves, you obviously believe that simply because something is Science Fiction, that it more than likely is not a work of Literature as you define it...based on your words:


Not to divert this thread too much... but science fiction as literature? Now don't get me wrong, I've read a lot of the stuff, and like it -- but [i]literature?[i/] Let's not kid ourselves -- hardly any science fiction reaches that lofty goal.


I'm not contending anything other than your statement was based on your opinion. I'm not saying you are wrong about anything other than the definition of Literature being set in stone and uniform for all fictional writing. I think it varies by person.

Anyway, enough with this tangent!
:D

[Xiabelle]

On the literature topic... I'd argue there's certainly some that's considered literature. Many people consider Tolkein to be literature. Ray Bradbury is considered one of the masters in the field, and his stuff is often classified that way, too. You could also consider Frankenstein and Dracula to be fantasy... or really, speculative fiction. Were it published today, they would be in either the SF or Horror sections of the bookstore. There's always been an element of the fantastic in much literature, it just hasn't solidified as a genre yet.

I'm working through a book of Locus Award winners, and believe me... some of these short stories are amazing, and certainly not what I would consider what most people think of when they mention science fiction or fantasy.

I minored in fiction when I was in college, and fantasy is one of the genres I gravitate towards. The bias against it is strong -- enough so that once, when I tweaked a story to be less fantasy, one of the critiques I got was that it 'sounded too much like a fantasy novel.' I'm not sure why it's not commonly accepted, but there is much to say for the concept. It's as if you aren't writing something Real and True, and really -- writing is all about writing what is real and true to you. That's what makes a good book. 95% of what people read isn't going to be literature. Because often, literature isn't fun.

My personal definition of literature is something that has resonance and exposes truths; it's all in the themes. This is why so much stuff lasts, because it has something that people can identify with. the best science fiction and fantasy do this too. No, I don't know many that I would consider to be literature right now. However, I would classify some authors as likely to make the step to being considered so in the future. Neil Gaiman, for one. Yes, even the Sandman comics , which have done wonders towards making the comic book accepted as good reading material. Sean Stewart is, IMO, good enough but he's not well-known enough. Someone upthread named several authors whose work is considered a classic. George R R Martin is going to be a solid classic once his series is done, but I don't know I'll classify it as literature... but definitely as a case study in how to handle politics in writing!

[Peyote]

The bias against it is strong -- enough so that once, when I tweaked a story to be less fantasy, one of the critiques I got was that it 'sounded too much like a fantasy novel.' I'm not sure why it's not commonly accepted, but there is much to say for the concept. It's as if you aren't writing something Real and True, and really -- writing is all about writing what is real and true to you. That's what makes a good book. 95% of what people read isn't going to be literature. Because often, literature isn't fun.


We are talking about fictional writing here....so isn't it true that if the book is a work of fiction it automatically is not (for the most part anyway) Real and True? I mean, if the events in a fictional book had actually happened, then it wouldn't be a fictional story. So by that logic, isn't it also true then that there is no distinct line between Fiction in general and Fantasy as a Genre? I mean...who's to say that something that someone writes in a "fantasy" novel couldn't actually happen? You can't prove a negative. So then does the distinction between the definition (as some would have it) of fantasy and non-fantasy as a novel about events that CAN occur and events that CANNOT occur lose its meaning?

If we were relating this subject to films for example...I would consider "Star Wars: Return of the Jedi" to be a Sci-Fi fantasy movie...does that mean that it is less valid as a great film than "The English Patient"...simply because Star Wars is Fantasy and not "real"?

Another example...the movie "Chocolat". While I haven't seen it, I know that it is based on a book that is generally classified as Magical Realism...and the events that take place cannot occur. Does that mean that it is any less valid as a great movie than any other movie, regardless of that movie's genre?

Which brings me back to my main point...there are all these preconceived notions surrounding what can be called "literature". You hear it from professors and scholars. They state the definition of literature and classify works as such as if it were fact...when all of this really is opinion. As others have stated, each person MUST have his/her own definition of "literature," simply because it is highly improbable that if you asked two people that agree on the technical definition of Literature what novels they would consider to be Literature, you'd get different answers. Math and science are the ONLY fields where laws are unbreakable, because they're not based on human ideas, but universal constants. Regardless of what Oxford or Webster tend to think of the definition of Literature...it is NOT a constant.

Interesting stuff.

[IJ Reilly]

What about "Brave New World"?

I've never seen this book classified as science fiction, a genre that barely existed when it was written, but the category is broad enough that many things are fit into it. When Vonnegut started publishing in the '50s he was classified as a science fiction writer, though I doubt many would call him that today.

[IJ Reilly]

Forgive me, I thought you had said that the definition of literature is based on opinion. Regardless of whether you did or didn't, the statement is true.

It's not my opinion, it's the consensus of opinion among people who know and care about this stuff. I'm also not talking about "art" but "literature." A book can be fine art without having achieved the rank of literature.

If you want to know what qualifies as literature, and prefer not to subscribe to the dictionary definition, you might start by looking at a syllabus for a university-level English Literature class. The best part of the reading list will be books over 100 years old.

[Peyote]

If you want to know what qualifies as literature, and prefer not to subscribe to the dictionary definition, you might start by looking at a syllabus for a university-level English Literature class. The best part of the reading list will be books over 100 years old.



That's precisely my point...the syllabus for a university level English Lit class will include works classified as "literature" according to someone's opinion, or, as you mentioned, a consensus of opinions. However opinions will always be opinions, regardless of who has them, and what scholarly title they have acheived. I'm not saying I know more than those you mention whom have decided on the definition of Literature, I'm saying I decide for myself what I consider to be literature.

[anonymous161]

I think this thread is deserving of the "Most Off Topic" award of the year.
Card may be a science fiction writer, but the fiction in this arcticle kicked all the science to the curb. If you have an imagination like this guy, it would be pretty easy to make the Rio seem like a cool device- he probably just pretends it's a tri-corder that he uses to scan for sexy life forms when he goes out in his Ford 500.

[Peyote]

I think this thread is deserving of the "Most Off Topic" award of the year.


I would second that! :D

[virividox]

haha this guy just made me laugh

not all mac-fans are windows haters. i use windows, but i prefer my mac :)

[WinterMute]

I think the phrase "Each to his own" covers this, personally I find Cards work (even the Ender series) derivative and poorly written, but I recognise that a lot of folks enjoyed them. Fair enough.

His comments, like his writings, are ill-conceived, inflammatory and pander to the worst opinions of the lowest anti-mac, PC fan-boy... ;) :D

Oh sorry, did I say that out loud...?

As I said, each to his own, Mr. Card is obviously happy with his Rio Riot, and his PC, I'm not, I'll stick with my slow, useless 17" PowerBook and my ugly 60gig iPod Photo.

[~Shard~]

His comments, like his writings, are ill-conceived, inflammatory and pander to the worst opinions of the lowest anti-mac, PC fan-boy... ;) :D

Oh sorry, did I say that out loud...?


Can a Mod Modereate himself? ;)

Actualy I'm glad you came out and said this, as I totaly agree with you. Well said. :cool:

[savar]

Didn't read the whole thing, but when people say stuff to this effect, it makes me question their mental health. This guy is either nuts or just such a huge nerd that he doesn't really understand how other people act and think.

“Windows crashes all the time,” they say with a smirk. Then, when they’re talking among themselves and they don’t think you’re listening, they reveal the evil truth: Macs crash too.

Is this guy eavesdropping on a Macintosh Users Group, or is he just imagining this scenario?? Yes, there exists a "Cult of Mac", but its obviously not literal. We don't sacrifice dog cows and brand each other or perform any other pagan rituals. There's no secret handshake.

And most of all, I've never been one to stand around and talk about what kinds of computer everybody else uses. And I have to believe that most everybody else is the same way I am, and even a large percentage of people here where you'd expect the hardcore nerds to hang out. I'm a nerd, sure, but I'm interested in new technology and how we will be able to use it. I don't stand around the water cooling telling zingers about the windows blue screen and snickering.

Ten years ago, maybe this article would have made some sense but the platform wars are over now. Nobody cares anymore. Even the nerds among nerds have dropped this issue and are interested in other things. And in the outside world -- you know the one with sun, trees, ocean, dirt, sand, beer, women, etc. -- there are a lot of other things to be interested in.

[IJ Reilly]

That's precisely my point...the syllabus for a university level English Lit class will include works classified as "literature" according to someone's opinion, or, as you mentioned, a consensus of opinions. However opinions will always be opinions, regardless of who has them, and what scholarly title they have acheived. I'm not saying I know more than those you mention whom have decided on the definition of Literature, I'm saying I decide for myself what I consider to be literature.

Having an opinion on a subject isn't the same as having an expertise in that subject or even knowing much about it. That's Mr. Card's problem, right? With that, I hope I've managed to drag this thread kicking and screaming back on topic...

[sourcemonkey]

What about "Brave New World"?

I've never seen this book classified as science fiction, a genre that barely existed when it was written, but the category is broad enough that many things are fit into it. When Vonnegut started publishing in the '50s he was classified as a science fiction writer, though I doubt many would call him that today.

What about 'Back to Methuselah' by Shaw?

Would anyone argue that this isn't 'literature'? (i don't think so)

Science Fiction is a strong theme here as far as i remember.

(great thread though, good work by the key protagonists)

[iJaz]

Haha, I didn't even get upset! Usually they (Mac haters) have a tiny bit of bit of truth in what they write which they then spin, but this had none, absolutely none! All I thought while I was reading was, poor guy, he must be very unhappy with his life.

[AudiGuy]

its true there are many MP3 players out there that are better than the IPODs. the only thing the IPods got is the design, they are really crappy though. i went though 3 ipods in one month. all three messed up the day i got them. i was thinking "so it has 30Gs and it only stores 150 songs why is it saying there isnt any room left when i still got 25Gs? oh well it looks cool i guess ill keep it." luckly i didnt i wised up and got a 20G iriver. ipods controls are better but iriver is more reliable and easier to sync.

about PCs both my mac and PC crash, but my 1.6P4 seems faster than my 1.5 G4.. WTF?

[AppleMatt]

Editor in Chief: johnhammer@rhinotimes.com :D

:D:D:D

AppleMatt

[Blue Velvet]

i went though 3 ipods in one month. all three messed up the day i got them.


Oh, so you bought 3 iPods within the space of 4 weeks and they were all broken and yet you strangely didn't return or replace them under the Apple guarantee?

Excuse me if I find this claim a little farfetched.

:rolleyes:

[Dr.Gargoyle]

The guy clearly wants some attention. He will probably be pushing a new book in near future. What better way than this to create a buzz around himself?
Regardless of which, I'd much rather prefer windows fanboys attacking Apple, than listen to the pity and ridicule that was so frequent a couple of years back.
Apple is obviously becoming a real threat to the empire of ignorance.
Way to go Steve. :D

[bartelby]

Am I the only person who's never heard of Orson Scott Card?
He's a sci-fi writer?

Now I am aware of him I can avoid buying his stuff!

[sourcemonkey]

Am I the only person who's never heard of Orson Scott Card?
He's a sci-fi writer?

Now I am aware of him I can avoid buying his stuff!

don't feel lonely, i hadn't heard of him either. sadly he's lost the plot it seems.

[~Shard~]

the only thing the IPods got is the design, they are really crappy though. i went though 3 ipods in one month. all three messed up the day i got them. i was thinking "so it has 30Gs and it only stores 150 songs why is it saying there isnt any room left when i still got 25Gs? oh well it looks cool i guess ill keep it." luckly i didnt i wised up and got a 20G iriver.

There are many people who would disagree with you when you call the iPod crappy. Personally, I have never had any difficulties whatsoever with mine. And 3 iPods in 1 month?! All I can say it you must have the worst luck in the world, never go to Vegas. :cool: I can only hope you returned them under Apple's warranty and didn't keep them (even though you eluded to this) :eek:

As for getting an iRiver instead, I would hardly call that "wising up", but chacun son gout... Some would call getting a PC instead of a Mac "wising up" too, I suppose...

about PCs both my mac and PC crash, but my 1.6P4 seems faster than my 1.5 G4.. WTF?

Once again, maybe you just have bad luck - there are not many people here who would claim their Mac crashes as much as their PC (if at all!)

Sorry, but with 3 iPods screwed up in a month and a Mac + a PC that apparently crash frequently, when looking for a common element some would rate this as PEBKAC... ;) :cool:

[anonymous161]

but iriver is more reliable and easier to sync.

and here we have the newest MR comedian.

[AudiGuy]

Oh, so you bought 3 iPods within the space of 4 weeks and they were all broken and yet you strangely didn't return or replace them under the Apple guarantee?

Excuse me if I find this claim a little farfetched.

:rolleyes:

yes i returned them, two 20G from apple and one 30G from bestbuy. i cant believe i was gonna keep a 20G just because it looked "cool" even if it held only 150 songs and i keep getting that dumb battery symbol with the lighting in the middle.
im am glad i didnt keep it, i dont want to be another guy with an ipod. when im on the train i notice at least 5 people with ipods on the car im in.
im not saying that both my pc and powerbook crash all the time, i saying that both platforms are not perfect. ipods are cool and all but lets just face it, people only buy them because they need to boost their image and/or wants to join the millions of "coo/hip" people. if ipods were more stable and less people owned them i would buy one. until then i dont want to be another zombie with white headphones.

[Diatribe]

until then i dont want to be another zombie with white headphones.

Lol, you do know you can use different headphones, right? Or are you just another zombie that keeps the standard ones? :p :D

[geese]

. ipods are cool and all but lets just face it, people only buy them because they need to boost their image and/or wants to join the millions of "coo/hip" people. if ipods were more stable and less people owned them i would buy one. until then i dont want to be another zombie with white headphones.


Are you reading the instruction manual? Maybe you bought your 3 iPods from some dodgy geezer in a car park?

[Dr.Gargoyle]

yes i returned them, two 20G from apple and one 30G from bestbuy. i cant believe i was gonna keep a 20G just because it looked "cool" even if it held only 150 songs and i keep getting that dumb battery symbol with the lighting in the middle.
im am glad i didnt keep it, i dont want to be another guy with an ipod. when im on the train i notice at least 5 people with ipods on the car im in.
im not saying that both my pc and powerbook crash all the time, i saying that both platforms are not perfect. ipods are cool and all but lets just face it, people only buy them because they need to boost their image and/or wants to join the millions of "coo/hip" people. if ipods were more stable and less people owned them i would buy one. until then i dont want to be another zombie with white headphones.
I am absolutely speechless... eventhough I feel a strong urge to comment, I just don't know what to say.

[mac-er]

yes i returned them, two 20G from apple and one 30G from bestbuy. i cant believe i was gonna keep a 20G just because it looked "cool" even if it held only 150 songs and i keep getting that dumb battery symbol with the lighting in the middle.
im am glad i didnt keep it, i dont want to be another guy with an ipod. when im on the train i notice at least 5 people with ipods on the car im in.
im not saying that both my pc and powerbook crash all the time, i saying that both platforms are not perfect. ipods are cool and all but lets just face it, people only buy them because they need to boost their image and/or wants to join the millions of "coo/hip" people. if ipods were more stable and less people owned them i would buy one. until then i dont want to be another zombie with white headphones.


WARNING: Please do not feed the troll.

Please, no one else respond to this person's comments. He obviously has never owned an Apple or iPod in his life, and is a Windows fanboy.

Sidenote: I guess because I buy pants I am trying to boost my image since millions of cool/hip people own pants.
:cool:

[MontyZ]

I prefer to boost my image with cosmetic surgery, not electronic appliances anyway.

[anonymous161]

WARNING: Please do not feed the troll.

Please, no one else respond to this person's comments. He obviously has never owned an Apple or iPod in his life, and is a Windows fanboy.



But I love him. I think he's sexy.

[AudiGuy]

WARNING: Please do not feed the troll.

Please, no one else respond to this person's comments. He obviously has never owned an Apple or iPod in his life, and is a Windows fanboy.

Sidenote: I guess because I buy pants I am trying to boost my image since millions of cool/hip people own pants.
:cool:

fan boy? you should really look at yourself first: imac, ipod, shuffle whos the fanboy? i just buy things that will fit my needs. i got a PC laptop to run the many programs that the mac doesnt have. i got the 12" powerbook for its small size and portability. ive tried the most popular mp3 player out there which is the ipod, i gave it three chances and it failed please me. so i got an iriver why? because it works thats why. again i buy things to fit my needs not because its trendy..
you apple heads can say what you want, what you need to do is crawl out of your apple caves and see wht the rest of the wold has to offer. im not on any side i like both pc and mac. just because you guys disagree with me it doesnt mean im a troll.

reply to sidenote: there are many styles of pants as there are mp3 players. it depends on what style you buy. say you want to be "street/hip-hop" then you would buy baggy pants right? sure everyone wears pants but you try do seperate yourself from the rest of the people with pants by wearing a certain style. as for mp3 palyers, not everyone wants to be a pod head okay?

[jefhatfield]

having been a pc owner, and a pc technician for 6 years, i can see most of his points

sure, apple inc is the master of hype and os x is not perfect

sure, steve jobs makes some ignorant technical claims from time to time and even irks steve wozniak in his embarassing comments

sure, the prices of some of their products could come down

sure, there are mac users who claim apple did this first, or that first, and were/are dead wrong in their claims

but in the balance of both worlds, macs are better than any standard pc machines out there running microsoft windows...and while the pc world offers cheaper products, you get what you pay for and if you want the best, apple is there and thank god we have that choice

when i get up in the morning, i log into my g4 while my pc stays quiet ;)

[AudiGuy]

^^^same here i log on to my g4 more but maybe because i have more HD space for downloads. im just too lazy to clean out the PC i got like 400MB left on there hahahhaa

[mac-er]

fan boy? you should really look at yourself first: imac, ipod, shuffle whos the fanboy? i just buy things that will fit my needs. i got a PC laptop to run the many programs that the mac doesnt have. i got the 12" powerbook for its small size and portability. ive tried the most popular mp3 player out there which is the ipod, i gave it three chances and it failed please me. so i got an iriver why? because it works thats why. again i buy things to fit my needs not because its trendy..
you apple heads can say what you want, what you need to do is crawl out of your apple caves and see wht the rest of the wold has to offer. im not on any side i like both pc and mac. just because you guys disagree with me it doesnt mean im a troll.


Against my better judgement, I will respond.
Sure, I love Apple because I was tired of Window's crappy DLL hell, ActiveX, anti-virus software and all the little pop-ups. Windows is too in your face.

But, the difference between you and I (and what makes you a troll), is that I don't go into Windows, MS, Dell, or HP forums and tell people what a bunch a crap Windows, MS, Dell, or HP stuff is.

According to Wikipedia, you are a troll...
A variant of the second variety (inflammatory messages) involves posting content obviously severely contradictory to the (stated or unstated) focus of the group or forum- for example, posting cat meat recipes on a pet lovers forum, posting evolutionary theory on a creationist forum (or vice versa), or posting messages about how all dragons are boring in the USENET group alt.fan.dragons.

I will no longer be responding to anything you post because I am not going to fall into the games of a troll.

[anonymous161]

Against my better judgement, I will respond.
Sure, I love Apple because I was tired of Window's crappy DLL hell, ActiveX, anti-virus software and all the little pop-ups. Windows is too in your face.

But, the difference between you and I (and what makes you a troll), is that I don't go into Windows, MS, Dell, or HP forums and tell people what a bunch a crap Windows, MS, Dell, or HP stuff is.

According to Wikipedia, you are a troll...


I will no longer be responding to anything you post because I am not going to fall into the games of a troll.

:( I think someone is having a bad day.

[MontyZ]

you apple heads can say what you want, what you need to do is crawl out of your apple caves and see wht the rest of the wold has to offer.
If by "rest of the world" you mean Windows/PC products, I've already been there and done that for 12+ years. As a Mac user for 5+ years, I'm much happier. Nothing is perfect, but some things are just better, and that includes PowerMacs and OSX.

Seems like you're basing your opinion of an entire company's product line on one item: the iPod. I feel the same you do about Apple's Displays, because I've had a lot of problems with them personally. But others have not, so, that doesn't make EVERYTHING crappy.

I think you're just looking for an argument and that's your only real motive here.

[Dr.Gargoyle]

:( I think someone is having a bad day.
I think he is correct. No flaws in his argumentation as I see it. We are talking about intentions here. I dont agree with everything Apple does, far from it. But when I do critizies Apple, I try to give constructive critisism and argue my point. I don't go on ranting about Apple making crappy products.
Big diff. as I see it

[AP_piano295]

My dad who dispite my constant prodding is a pc person laragely because he can build them himself. About a year ago he bought a shuttle x pc it came in and looked pretty good (actually had some style) it even had some actually useful inovative features internally, not just a fan but cooling pipes which I thought was pretty cool. Then we installed xp and the fun started, we couldnt get the printer to work, the fast 16x dvd burner had no available drivers, spending hours working through these problems 20 minutes after opening the box was great.3 weeks latter time to put it through its paces for a 2.4ghz 1gig ram 64mbvid card it was RIDICULOUSLY slow my friends ibook 1.33ghz 256 ram 32bit vid card was as good or better than it. 1year 3refourmats 1virus later I sit and type this post stoping every 30 seconds to kill the popups attacking my screen and dreaming of the mac I am buying as soon as the june expo.


PS: what card forgot to mention is that the powerbook probly had features not even herd of in the pc world yet fire wire, usb 2.0 ext the guy with the powerbook could still be using it apples go out of date so slowly. Hes had to replace that toshiba 2or 3 times by now. :confused:

[AP_piano295]

could someone list all these programs that dont run on macs
because I cant think of any programs I (the average consumer) would need that doesnt run on the mac unless your a real hard core gamer

my opinion game systems are for games (xbox, ps2 ext.) I can live without them on my cpu for the most part except maybe for some rts games which by the way mac has pleanty of at least all the actually good games.

[~Shard~]

i got a PC laptop to run the many programs that the mac doesnt have.

Could you please provide us all with a list of what these "many programs" are? I have only run into a couple rare PC programs that have nothing like them on the Mac, and even then I've found acceptable alternatives. Let us know what these programs are and maybe we can suggest some Mac programs that you weren't even aware of!

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Could you please provide us all with a list of what these "many programs" are? I have only run into a couple rare PC programs that have nothing like them on the Mac, and even then I've found acceptable alternatives. Let us know what these programs are and maybe we can suggest some Mac programs that you weren't even aware of!
Hmmm, I hate play the devils advocate....
But a stable professional wysiwyg LaTex editor is missing...:(
I am using Scientific Workplace from MacKichan Software (http://www.mackichan.com/) . This is not a good program, buggy as hell, but the fact remains: there are no alternative for Mac (hence my signature).
Lyx (http://www.lyx.org) can hardly be described as an alternative.
At home I have to run SWP through VPC. :(

note: they use to make a Mac version before. Now they state the following:

Microsoft Windows® XP, 2000, Me, 98, or NT 4.0
or
Apple Macintosh® running an emulator program such as Virtual PC™
64 MB of RAM
70 to 250 MB hard disk space, depending on the type of hard drive and the installation options selected
CD-ROM drive
...morons :mad:

[foxone]

What makes me the most angry is when people call the iPod an "mp3 player". News flash: the iPod plays other formats of music (most importantly, the best sounding audio codec out there: AAC) Not to mention it plays uncompressed AIFF, WAV and Apple Lossless files for those of us who cannot listen to compressed audio because we rely on sonic quality for our jobs (approving mixes for albums - try doing that with an mp3 or wma - the quality is just not there!) Plus, which compressed format was chosen for the new HD-DVDs? Apple's AAC...

[mac-er]

:( I think someone is having a bad day.

I'm having a wonderful day. I just cannot stand when trolls, who have no life, get on here and make up stories about buying 3 iBooks or 3 iPods in one day and having to take each one back because each one was broken (or whatever other ridiculous story they can come up with).

I mean, really, how many people do you know that have that much trouble with any product. I've never had to exchange ANY product more than once.

[iJaz]

What makes me the most angry is when people call the iPod an "mp3 player". News flash: the iPod plays other formats of music (most importantly, the best sounding audio codec out there: AAC) Not to mention it plays uncompressed AIFF, WAV and Apple Lossless files for those of us who cannot listen to compressed audio because we rely on sonic quality for our jobs (approving mixes for albums - try doing that with an mp3 or wma - the quality is just not there!) Plus, which compressed format was chosen for the new HD-DVDs? Apple's AAC...
I think it is an mp3 player since it plays mp3s.
And AAC is not Apple's, AAC was developed by the MPEG group that includes Dolby, Fraunhofer (FhG), AT&T, Sony, and Nokia.

[geese]

What makes me the most angry is when people call the iPod an "mp3 player". News flash: the iPod plays other formats of music (most importantly, the best sounding audio codec out there: AAC) Not to mention it plays uncompressed AIFF, WAV and Apple Lossless files for those of us who cannot listen to compressed audio because we rely on sonic quality for our jobs (approving mixes for albums - try doing that with an mp3 or wma - the quality is just not there!) Plus, which compressed format was chosen for the new HD-DVDs? Apple's AAC...

Does that really make you angry? I mean really angry?

I find global poverty, injustice and greed make me angry, but describing an iPod incorrectly? Life?

[patrick0brien]

I mean, really, how many people do you know that have that much trouble with any product. I've never had to exchange ANY product more than once.

-mac-er

Well, my cousin for one. But she knows it's because her body's magnetic field is too strong. Hell, she magnetizes mechanical watches in 48 hours!

I think maybe there are a few others that have this effect - but just don't know about it.

Another wierd example, my ex-fience, every time she got upset, her Win2k box would freeze. It turns out that she too had a pronounces magnetic field and when she hit that mood, the field 'popped'. And there you go.

How's that for the wierdness quotient for the day?

[sourcemonkey]

-mac-er

Well, my cousin for one. But she knows it's because her body's magnetic field is too strong. Hell, she magnetizes mechanical watches in 48 hours!

I think maybe there are a few others that have this effect - but just don't know about it.

Another wierd example, my ex-fience, every time she got upset, her Win2k box would freeze. It turns out that she too had a pronounces magnetic field and when she hit that mood, the field 'popped'. And there you go.

How's that for the wierdness quotient for the day?

this thread has degenerated into mindless BS. patrick, you've capped it off nicely :D

[tech4all]

...but iriver is more reliable and easier to sync.

I'm really curious of how much easier the iRiver is to sync (with music). All I do is pop my iPod in it's dock and let the computer do the rest.

And how is it more reliable? My iPod is very reliable.



What makes me the most angry is when people call the iPod an "mp3 player". News flash: the iPod plays other formats of music (most importantly, the best sounding audio codec out there: AAC) Not to mention it plays uncompressed AIFF, WAV and Apple Lossless files for those of us who cannot listen to compressed audio because we rely on sonic quality for our jobs (approving mixes for albums - try doing that with an mp3 or wma - the quality is just not there!) Plus, which compressed format was chosen for the new HD-DVDs? Apple's AAC...

Ok we'll call the iPod an: AAC, Mp3, AIFF, and WAV player :rolleyes: ;)

[runcapher68]

When I see brainwashed BillyBox users like this guy I have to laugh then I want to do the Mac-user thing and reach out to the poor deluded soul and help him see the light. In this case I think it would be a waste of time. We know the truth. We have better machines. We have the facts to back up our claims. And we have smiles on our faces all the time. :-)

[patrick0brien]

this thread has degenerated into mindless BS. patrick, you've capped it off nicely :D

-sourcemonkey

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyes!

Happy to oblige.

-runcapher68

I'm switching a guy tonight.

[AudiGuy]

I'm really curious of how much easier the iRiver is to sync (with music). All I do is pop my iPod in it's dock and let the computer do the rest.

And how is it more reliable? My iPod is very reliable.





Ok we'll call the iPod an: AAC, Mp3, AIFF, and WAV player :rolleyes: ;)

for one the iriver doesnt need a program to connect i know the 3rd gen ipods needed musicmatch on the PC and itunes. for example i can connect it to ANY PC and ANY mac, all i got to do is drag and drop files. easy as that. i dunno about the newer ipods do they still need to sync with itunes? can you drag and drop files between macs and PCs with out the need to reformat? does the ipod have a built in radio? can it record through a built in mic and line in optical and analog? how many times do you get the stupid battery icon with the lighting in the middle?

[patrick0brien]

for one the iriver doesnt need a program to connect i know the 3rd gen ipods needed musicmatch on the PC and itunes. for example i can connect it to ANY PC and ANY mac, all i got to do is drag and drop files. easy as that. i dunno about the newer ipods do they still need to sync with itunes? can you drag and drop files between macs and PCs with out the need to reformat? does the ipod have a built in radio? can it record through a built in mic and line in optical and analog? how many times do you get the stupid battery icon with the lighting in the middle?

-AudiGuy

This looks like bait, but I'll answer as if it's honest questions.

can you drag and drop files between macs and PCs with out the need to reformat?

No need to reformat, just swap 'em.

does the ipod have a built in radio?

No, it doesn't, but kinda wish it did. But it's not a life-ender for me.

can it record through a built in mic and line in optical and analog?

No built-in mic, but then, I'm perfectly happy to swap my iTalk on when I need it. This is good for me as if I brought a recording device to where I work - end of employment.

how many times do you get the stupid battery icon with the lighting in the middle?

Arrr?

[AudiGuy]

ill stop enough ipod bashing....what can i say i just dont like the ipods..i do love my powerbook though :D

[patrick0brien]

what can i say i just dont like the ipods.

-AudiGuy

And that's one of the better things said here in a while.

Nobody should argue preference.

[tech4all]

does the ipod have a built in radio?

As said, no it doesn't. Which, IMO, I'm glad. I don't listen to the radio. I want to listen to what I want to listen to. I don't spend 100's of dollars to listen to the radio. The only time when a radio would be useful is when you were in a situation where you needed to listen to any special new bulletin.

can it record through a built in mic and line in optical and analog?

No. Again, IMO, another useless feature. I don't remember the last time I used a microphone.

The way I see it these other audio players put these other "features" in there just to have more features that the iPod so people may see it as better just because it can do more, when in fact, IMO, those features are useless to me. Yes I know some may disagree with me, and that's fine. I just have no use for those extra features. Besides there are companies out there that make these features for the iPod if you really needed it. I don't need/use them so the iPod is great for me.

how many times do you get the stupid battery icon with the lighting in the middle?

The battery icon with the lighting in middle only comes on when you charge the iPod. If that's what you were referring to.

[trainguy77]

When was the last time this guy used a mac?

[rowanhall]

two words: penis envy!

haha!
"crap cheap plastic cases", of course, titanium and aluminium fits this bracket.

as for the ipod comment, yes, some do sound better, but none are as simple and satisfying to use!

i was a windows power user for 10yrs, and since i bought my imac i havn't looked back! thats got to count for something! :)

also why do mac users always get put in 'stuck up' social bracket?

[foxone]

Does that really make you angry? I mean really angry?

I find global poverty, injustice and greed make me angry, but describing an iPod incorrectly? Life?


allow me to correct myself by quoting Kip from Napoleon Dymanite "i'm really just getting kinda T.O.'d" :D

but seriously, i just wish people wouldn't limit it by calling it an mp3 player when it does so much more. it's KIND OF like if someone were to refer to a computer as a word processor...yeah, it does word processing, and so much more. again, notice i used KIND OF because it's not the best analogy out there but i'm too tired to think of another one :rolleyes:

B-52: thanks for the correction about it not being just apple's technology. but boy am i greatful that Apple has adopted it, it's the only audio codec worth using because finally something sounds pretty good unlike the nasty "washy" high frequencies of mp3s

[AudiGuy]

allow me to correct myself by quoting Kip from Napoleon Dymanite "i'm really just getting kinda T.O.'d" :D

but seriously, i just wish people wouldn't limit it by calling it an mp3 player when it does so much more. it's KIND OF like if someone were to refer to a computer as a word processor...yeah, it does word processing, and so much more. again, notice i used KIND OF because it's not the best analogy out there but i'm too tired to think of another one :rolleyes:

B-52: thanks for the correction about it not being just apple's technology. but boy am i greatful that Apple has adopted it, it's the only audio codec worth using because finally something sounds pretty good unlike the nasty "washy" high frequencies of mp3s

so that means we should call a a swiss army knife a screwdriver/bottle opener/kife/corkscrew/scissor/saw/toothpic/plier/ruler/filer/compass???? i think it would be easier to just call it a swiss army knife wouldnt you agree?

[tech4all]

so that means we should call a a swiss army knife a screwdriver/bottle opener/kife/corkscrew/scissor/saw/toothpic/plier/ruler/filer/compass???? i think it would be easier to just call it a swiss army knife wouldnt you agree?

Yes.

I think digital music player's have always been known at "mp3 players" since they've been out, at least for me. So I just associate "mp3 player" as a digital music player. Yes most are aware that most can play more than one format, but it's just easier to say mp3 player, and it's more known. To tell you the truth, when I hear "mp3 player" I don't really think of the mp3 format but rather digital music in general....but that's just me.

Course the iPod seems to becoming the general term for digital music players. Sorta like Xerox or Kleenex; although an actual product, they are used more as a general term to describe making copies and tissue.

:)

[IJ Reilly]

I've heard Uncle Steve refer to the iPod as an "MP3 player." Somebody's got to get that man on board with the iPod thing!

BTW, I'm surprised nobody picked up on the claim of 150 songs filling a 30 Gb iPod. I've got over 2,300 songs on my 15 Gb, a couple of gigs of backup from my desktop, address book and calendar, and nearly a third of the space left over...

[neildmitchell]

I find it hilarious that he is not looking at the fact that he himself has been branded by the other corporate consumer elctronic and software makers, that he identifies with his "self".

He is def. one of the people out there that has bought into the "I buy therefore I am". I buy Rio therefore I am Rio! I buy Panasonic therefore I am Panasonic! :p

A good suggestion for this insecure person would be to seek counciling, discussing the topic of corporate branding and Identity and how/why it has transformed their own personal values and identity.

Sad sad sad... People confusing corporate identity with their own. :(

[Dr.Gargoyle]

I find it hilarious that he is not looking at the fact that he himself has been branded by the other corporate consumer elctronic and software makers, that he identifies with his "self".

He is def. one of the people out there that has bought into the "I buy therefore I am". I buy Rio therefore I am Rio! I buy Panasonic therefore I am Panasonic! :p

A good suggestion for this insecure person would be to seek counciling, discussing the topic of corporate branding and Identity and how/why it has transformed their own personal values and identity.

Sad sad sad... People confusing corporate identity with their own. :(
Good Point. However, the phenomenon is probably more common than we care to admit.

[Jopling]

I am pretty sure that the iPod was the first harddrive based Mp3 player. It might not have started big, but I think It was the first to use an actual harddrive. Just to let Card know, that film director/producer wasn't so silly in having an Apple. I work in film on a day to day basis and I also own a Mac and a Windows Machine. I didn't switch until about 2 years ago. It is so much easier to make films, graphics, newscasts, etc with a Mac than on a PC. Our teleprompters don't work half the days we run our newscast because our Windows box is defunct half the time.

OH and the iPod CAN record. Supposedly with the help of iPod Linux you can record through a mic built in either the left or right ear bud of apple's earbuds.

[IJ Reilly]

Awesome. I don't know how I missed this, but it's kind of amazing. (It's the left, btw. Or a line-in mic.)

http://www.ipodlinux.org/Main_Page

[jefhatfield]

it's KIND OF like if someone were to refer to a computer as a word processor...yeah, it does word processing, and so much more. again, notice i used KIND OF because it's not the best analogy out there but i'm too tired to think of another one :rolleyes:


to many people, it's a word processor, sometimes (but rarely) a spreadsheet, an internet portal, and an e-mail machine...and not much more, really

after fixing hundreds, or more, of machines as a pc and mac tech, i have seen the users of those machines basically do these tasks, and maybe download music, illegally, he he ;)

computers can do so much more but i think the potential of a pc or mac will not be realized by the vast majority of the public

[840quadra]

thought this site would go well under the title of this post.

http://blogs.msmobiles.com/mobilephonefan/index.php?cat=9

I guess he dosen't like apple or the Mini much at all.

[IJ Reilly]

thought this site would go well under the title of this post.

http://blogs.msmobiles.com/mobilephonefan/index.php?cat=9

I guess he dosen't like apple or the Mini much at all.

He doesn't seem to like anything much at all. Blogs... giving people with nothing to say a place to say it.

[IanC]

thought this site would go well under the title of this post.

http://blogs.msmobiles.com/mobilephonefan/index.php?cat=9

I guess he dosen't like apple or the Mini much at all.

Wow, he really hates Apple.

[840quadra]

He doesn't seem to like anything much at all. Blogs... giving people with nothing to say a place to say it.

agreed