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View Full Version : Why Apple Haters are taking over MR


Consultant
Dec 13, 2011, 10:30 PM
Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html) via Gruber (http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/12/13/trolls):

There's a sort of Gresham's Law of trolls: trolls are willing to use a forum with a lot of thoughtful people in it, but thoughtful people aren't willing to use a forum with a lot of trolls in it. Which means that once trolling takes hold, it tends to become the dominant culture.

Happening a lot with anything that mentions Android / iPhone.

As a long time Macrumors reader and more recently forum member, I am seeing more trolling happening in the past years. Perhaps MR needs to enforce the rude comment rule (perhaps calling someone fanboy = 1 warning then ban).

I've also seen examples of some users who are perpetual liars not being banned yet.

chrono1081
Dec 13, 2011, 11:37 PM
Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html) via Gruber (http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/12/13/trolls):



Happening a lot with anything that mentions Android / iPhone.

As a long time Macrumors reader and more recently forum member, I am seeing more trolling happening in the past years. Perhaps MR needs to enforce the rude comment rule (perhaps calling someone fanboy = 1 warning then ban).

I've also seen examples of some users who are perpetual liars not being banned yet.

I have seen a lot of this too. This forum has gone down a lot in the past few years and it mostly is in the iPhone forums.

I also think the word fanboy should get people banned. The only reason to use that word is to insult other members either directly or indirectly.

arn
Dec 14, 2011, 12:00 AM
There's definitely been a bit more contentious vibe to the major comment threads these days, and I'm not sure the best way to combat it.

It's unfortunately a side effect of popularity.

I know some people object to the voting buttons, and like I said when we started it was a bit of an experiment, to get more data. I think we could go further with it, but there are those that seem opposed to it.

arn

MacNut
Dec 14, 2011, 12:10 AM
So what are we calling trolling? People who don't agree with everything Apple does, or people who think Apple is god and won't see the other side of the argument?

sand_man
Dec 14, 2011, 12:15 AM
I'm a fanboy and proud of it. Since when is being brand loyal something to be ashamed of?

dejo
Dec 14, 2011, 12:21 AM
Perhaps MR needs to enforce the rude comment rule (perhaps calling someone fanboy = 1 warning then ban).

What leads you to believe we are not enforcing the current rules, as best we can? There are more than 10000 forum posts per day. The moderators cannot read them all so they rely on members to report problem posts that they encounter. Calling members fanboys or trolls is against the rules but we can't deal with violations unless we know about them. And thanks to all those who do report violations.

arn
Dec 14, 2011, 12:43 AM
So what are we calling trolling? People who don't agree with everything Apple does, or people who think Apple is god and won't see the other side of the argument?

The troll/not-troll line is necessarily biased towards the forum topic. That is due to the intention of the person trolling, who wants to strike up an argument or get on people's nerves.

A person who posts about how much Motorcycles suck might be seen as a troll in a Motorcycle forum, whereas it would be hard for a someone who loves Motorcycles to be seen as a troll in the same forum.

arn

swingerofbirch
Dec 14, 2011, 12:53 AM
While I disagree with the premise that haters are taking over MR, I would say that what you notice probably has to do with Apple no longer being the underdog darling of the industry. Apple was once a company for "the rest of us." It is now a company for all of us—it is a consumer electronics company that created or changed a few industries (computing, smartphones, tablets). In those industries, Apple is mainstream and going against mainstream competitors. The days of being a Mac evangelist and getting giddy over Apple making a move like putting an ad in a glossy magazine or being excited that Sears might finally have one Mac on display are kind of over. The company that people formed such an allegiance around and cheered on today would be more equivalent to Palm if it hadn't shut down. I can't think of a company that has the underdog, darling feel that Apple had—maybe Microsoft if it heads south for a few more years.

I think for that reason Apple isn't viewed by its users in the same protectionist, apologist way it was in the past--a time when evangelists were needed and a small group of loyal users kept the company alive.

brendan_biele
Dec 14, 2011, 12:55 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_4 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8K2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I've been reading the forums for a few years now and the flame throwing exists but it's way worse on other tech sites. *I actually don't mind being called a "fanboy". *I really am one of those creative types and people hire me to do creative things with media. *The Apple ecosystem has always allowed me to get that done with ease, and now I can do a Ton of tasks from my pocket. *I have some good friends that call me a fanboy but they do it out of respect, because they know I can produce.

OK, I even keep the MR app, the TUAW app, the AppleInsider app, the Tech Crunch app, a Gizmodo link, 9-5 Mac, Mactracker, the Apple Store app, "", "" in an iOS folder called "Fanboy".

**I am a Fanboy. *

maril1111
Dec 14, 2011, 12:59 AM
Not a fanboy but i appreciate the apple products, although i think the haters on some other forums have been/are much worse.

saving107
Dec 14, 2011, 01:37 AM
How does one decide to become a Troll? (is it a conscience decision or accidental?)

I'm only 26, but growing I have always wondered why so many people get bothered by someone else's choice of anything other than what they like and why they feel the need to argue bullet points and try to "convert" that person to the "better choice".

"Well my android phone has quad super duper cores with 4.5 inch supercalifragilisticexpialidocious display and lightning bolts speed LTE HSPA++ running ice-cream sundae with a cherry on top OS" (this is how it sounds in my mind :D)

In the tech community it used to be PC vs Mac, now its iOS vs Android. Another comparison is Sport fans and their choice of team they prefer, it baffles me.

I very much agree with my signature (thats why I have it) "Let's just say it: If someone else's choice of computing platform makes you angry and agitated, there's something wrong with you."

If someone is bothered enough of someone else's choices and feels the need to go out of their way to not only post "trollish" post in a forum, but to dedicate so much effort in doing so is troublesome. I get that a majority of those "people" are under the age of 15 and have nothing better to do online, the sad fact is that real life "trolling" does occur as well when someone at a coffee shop notices and says "Oh, you have an iPhone".

vrDrew
Dec 14, 2011, 04:49 AM
The reason can be summed up in one word: Android

I think the people reading this thread are smart enough, and perceptive enough, to understand the unique combination of technical, commercial, and societal factors that have brought this situation about.

When (to cite but one example) a major Android maker basically endorses and encourages (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-mocks-iphone-4s-buyers-in-new-commercial-1042810) this sort of obnoxiousness, its not hard to see where the problem comes from.

What, if anything, can be done about it is another matter entirely.

roadbloc
Dec 14, 2011, 05:44 AM
I think if you're that phased by the word 'fanboy', you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place. Its hardly offensive.

People have different opinions. Not everyone on this site has to love Apple. Despite being a user of their products, I am certainly not loving Apple at times. If someone prefers Android over iOS, it doesn't mean they are automatically a troll.

brendan_biele
Dec 14, 2011, 05:51 AM
The reason can be summed up in one word: Android

I think the people reading this thread are smart enough, and perceptive enough, to understand the unique combination of technical, commercial, and societal factors that have brought this situation about.

When (to cite but one example) a major Android maker basically endorses and encourages (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-mocks-iphone-4s-buyers-in-new-commercial-1042810) this sort of obnoxiousness, its not hard to see where the problem comes from.

What, if anything, can be done about it is another matter entirely.

"I could never get a Samsung, I'm creative." Now I feel really lame for calling myself a creative in my earlier post... LOL. It is an ad that hits a little too close to home for some of us, and that really does make it pretty funny. It's just not effective. Insulting your target audience should be left to the political spots.

yg17
Dec 14, 2011, 08:15 AM
Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html) via Gruber (http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/12/13/trolls):



Happening a lot with anything that mentions Android / iPhone.

As a long time Macrumors reader and more recently forum member, I am seeing more trolling happening in the past years. Perhaps MR needs to enforce the rude comment rule (perhaps calling someone fanboy = 1 warning then ban).

I've also seen examples of some users who are perpetual liars not being banned yet.

Give me a break. For every Android user on this forum (btw, Android user != Apple hater) who calls an Apple person a fanboy, there's an Apple person who calls an Android user a fanboy.

MrNomNoms
Dec 14, 2011, 08:57 AM
Give me a break. For every Android user on this forum (btw, Android user != Apple hater) who calls an Apple person a fanboy, there's an Apple person who calls an Android user a fanboy.

One could also argue that robust debates make for an interesting community - God knows I don't want to be in a forum where everyone is patting each other on the back telling how much they agree each other on a particular topic. There needs to be robust discussions that are based on facts and/or a well reasoned argument rather than just simply 6 word sentences that address nothing in the original post being made.

The bigger issue though are the 'one post wonders' or those who make the same stupid post over and over and over and over again and no matter how many times that person's post has been corrected that same person will post the same statement again in reply to a new news article on the same given topic. I've just recently had had an exchange with OllyW in regards to RichardBeer persistent posting about OpenGL 3.2 not being in Mac OS X Lion and no matter how many times multiple people have politely corrected him he still keeps posting the same stupid post to every new Mac OS X article that appears - behaviour like *THAT* should result in an automatic ban.

The whole purpose of a forum is a two way dialogue - you make a statement, I critique that statement and then you reply back critiquing my critique whilst maybe bringing in more information to further your case. That is how a dialogue should occur and not this 'one post wonders' and idiots who come in, post the same stupid disproven garbage never to be heard form again.

GGJstudios
Dec 14, 2011, 10:05 AM
What leads you to believe we are not enforcing the current rules, as best we can? There are more than 10000 forum posts per day. The moderators cannot read them all so they rely on members to report problem posts that they encounter. Calling members fanboys or trolls is against the rules but we can't deal with violations unless we know about them. And thanks to all those who do report violations.
This is true. As the Rules for Appropriate Debate (http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:Rules_for_Appropriate_Debate) state:
You can't call a bigot a bigot, a troll a troll, or a fanboy a fanboy, any more than you can call an idiot an idiot.
Every time I've reported such a post, it's dealt with. My hat is off to the moderation team for patiently handling all my post reports! They are very consistent in enforcing the rules, but you have to let them know by reporting offending posts.

A person who posts about how much Motorcycles suck might be seen as a troll in a Motorcycle forum..
That could get you hog-tied, stomped and dragged in the Harley forum! :D

Consultant
Dec 16, 2011, 11:53 PM
What leads you to believe we are not enforcing the current rules, as best we can? There are more than 10000 forum posts per day. The moderators cannot read them all so they rely on members to report problem posts that they encounter. Calling members fanboys or trolls is against the rules but we can't deal with violations unless we know about them. And thanks to all those who do report violations.

I have submitted indisputable evidence of some compulsive liars, the last user I noted is still around.

roadbloc
Dec 17, 2011, 05:10 AM
I have submitted indisputable evidence of some compulsive liars, the last user I noted is still around.
God help us. Somebody lied on an internet forum. Are you sure they're lying? Or maybe they are just misinformed. Say I was told that iOS was based on Android, and then made a post about it at some point. Does that make me a compulsive liar? No, it makes me misinformed.

Accusing people of lying is a rather large claim. I hope your evidence is indisputable, and not something that could be seen as someone's lack of knowledge. Having a lack of knowledge is something you certainly cannot talk about as I've corrected plenty of your misinformed posts over the time I've posted on this forum.

chrono1081
Dec 17, 2011, 08:44 AM
God help us. Somebody lied on an internet forum. Are you sure they're lying? Or maybe they are just misinformed. Say I was told that iOS was based on Android, and then made a post about it at some point. Does that make me a compulsive liar? No, it makes me misinformed.

Accusing people of lying is a rather large claim. I hope your evidence is indisputable, and not something that could be seen as someone's lack of knowledge. Having a lack of knowledge is something you certainly cannot talk about as I've corrected plenty of your misinformed posts over the time I've posted on this forum.

I think what he is talking about is the people lying in order to "stir the pot" so to speak which is trolling. This forum has a lot of trolls and I'm personally glad to see I'm not the only one reporting it.

This forum was much different 4 years ago when I first started coming here and I'd love to see it go back to what it was.

yg17
Dec 17, 2011, 09:10 AM
I have submitted indisputable evidence of some compulsive liars, the last user I noted is still around.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

I think what he is talking about is the people lying in order to "stir the pot" so to speak which is trolling. This forum has a lot of trolls and I'm personally glad to see I'm not the only one reporting it.

This forum was much different 4 years ago when I first started coming here and I'd love to see it go back to what it was.

And there are plenty of Apple fans who compulsively lie about Android on this forum. They're no better. But I doubt anyone's reporting them.

Weaselboy
Dec 17, 2011, 09:20 AM
I know some people object to the voting buttons, and like I said when we started it was a bit of an experiment, to get more data. I think we could go further with it, but there are those that seem opposed to it.

I think the voting buttons would be very ineffective at policing the forums in any way and will lead to a "Reddit like" hive mind here. How would the system discriminate between a well thought out but unpopular opinion that gets downvoted and a post with downvotes due to name calling for example.

I think the current post report system works well for the worst offenders. I can only think of a couple posts I ever reported that a mod did not act on, the rest were quickly deleted. I suspect many users don't use the "report" button?

----------

That could get you hog-tied, stomped and dragged in the Harley forum! :D

Something something something your mom. :p

decksnap
Dec 17, 2011, 05:46 PM
I've pretty much stopped posting here in the last year or two. Really it's because there used to be a lot of reasoned discussion and debate in any given topic, with a large group of seasoned Apple users setting a civil tone and giving meaningful takes on the news of the day.

These days it's like reading youtube comments. Frankly anybody using the term 'fanboy' doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to articulate their own thoughts, or entertain the thoughts of others.

Ban 'em all. :D

Judas1
Dec 17, 2011, 08:25 PM
The term fanboy, while rude, is not even an insult in my book. It just means that the other person believe you have a bias toward Apple, and can't take your argument seriously. The term troll, when used too excessively and incorrectly like I've seen is an ACTUAL insult. It basically says that a person doesn't belong here, and their opinion doesn't matter. I've been called a phandroid, and it didn't phase to me at all. On the other hand, being called a troll for criticizing Apple and their all too loyal fans, now that stung.

arn
Dec 17, 2011, 10:56 PM
I think the voting buttons would be very ineffective at policing the forums in any way and will lead to a "Reddit like" hive mind here. How would the system discriminate between a well thought out but unpopular opinion that gets downvoted and a post with downvotes due to name calling for example.

Are you of the opinion that such a system not better than what we have now?

arn

Weaselboy
Dec 18, 2011, 07:00 AM
Are you of the opinion that such a system not better than what we have now?

arn

Yes I am for the reasons I mentioned. Using the vote buttons to in effect moderate is allowing the same people who are causing the problem to pick the winners and losers in the forums. It needs to be an unbiased third party (mod) who makes these decisions.

I agree there has been somewhat of a decrease in civility in the forums, but I don't think vote buttons is the answer.

Some of this I think is cyclical and related to Apple product intros. There looked like a lot of new users who came along with the 4S release for example.

Hellhammer
Dec 18, 2011, 03:13 PM
This forum was much different 4 years ago when I first started coming here and I'd love to see it go back to what it was.

That would mean life without iPhones and iPads. I don't think going back is an option because IMO moderation is not behind this. If someone wants to troll, one will always be able to do that. It's simply impossible for us to catch the post before anyone else does.

Luckily the rest of the forum is still pretty clean, so staying away from iPhone/iOS helps a lot.

I have submitted indisputable evidence of some compulsive liars, the last user I noted is still around.

Remember that what you see as trolling isn't necessarily trolling in our eyes. I've handled dozens of post reports where the post was reported as trolling, even though the poster was just expressing his opinion. It's not trolling to have different views on subjects. Besides, not all trolls are anti-Apple, there are some pretty bad pro-Apple posters as well.

Consultant
Dec 21, 2011, 02:48 PM
Remember that what you see as trolling isn't necessarily trolling in our eyes. I've handled dozens of post reports where the post was reported as trolling, even though the poster was just expressing his opinion. It's not trolling to have different views on subjects. Besides, not all trolls are anti-Apple, there are some pretty bad pro-Apple posters as well.

Example user:

In one post says I have no problem with my iPhone. Six hours later claimed 3 replacements, and "battery life is crap, phone dies". Then calls apple users "stupid idiots".

So do you think this user has gone through 3 replacement phones and changed his opinion in six hours? This same user repeats the same strategy for different devices.

Are you of the opinion that such a system not better than what we have now?

arn

Voting works in some cases, here's a case that it's not working:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1295044

saving107
Dec 21, 2011, 03:14 PM
In one post says I have no problem with my iPhone. Six hours later claimed 3 replacements, and "battery life is crap, phone dies". Then calls apple users "stupid idiots".

So do you think this user has gone through 3 replacement phones and changed his opinion in six hours? This same user repeats the same strategy for different devices.


But you can't Ban or put in Time-Out a compulsive liar, thats not the same as trolling.

Trolling
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Liar
A person who tells lies.

— n
a person who has lied or lies repeatedly

roadbloc
Dec 21, 2011, 05:04 PM
Example user:

In one post says I have no problem with my iPhone. Six hours later claimed 3 replacements, and "battery life is crap, phone dies". Then calls apple users "stupid idiots".

So do you think this user has gone through 3 replacement phones and changed his opinion in six hours? This same user repeats the same strategy for different devices.

MacRumors is a well moderated forum. I visit a lot smaller sites with worse moderation. If you don't like someone because they are a "compulsive liar" or whatever, put them on your ignore list. Not everyone has to agree with your way of thinking.

GGJstudios
Dec 21, 2011, 05:08 PM
MacRumors is a well moderated forum. I visit a lot smaller sites with worse moderation. If you don't like someone because they are a "compulsive liar" or whatever, put them on your ignore list. Not everyone has to agree with your way of thinking.
I wholeheartedly agree. The moderation team here is superb. If you find a post you think is in violation, report it. Then leave it up to the moderators to decide if they agree with your assessment. Sometimes they do; sometimes they don't. If a poster constantly annoys you, but isn't violating rules, ignore them.

William.Mantle
Dec 21, 2011, 05:36 PM
Example user:

In one post says I have no problem with my iPhone. Six hours later claimed 3 replacements, and "battery life is crap, phone dies". Then calls apple users "stupid idiots".

So do you think this user has gone through 3 replacement phones and changed his opinion in six hours? This same user repeats the same strategy for different devices.



Voting works in some cases, here's a case that it's not working:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1295044

It seems like you're just annoyed that people didnt like your comment and voted so. Everybody is allowed an opinion

BlizzardBolt
Dec 21, 2011, 10:57 PM
I think if you're that phased by the word 'fanboy', you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place. Its hardly offensive.

People have different opinions. Not everyone on this site has to love Apple. Despite being a user of their products, I am certainly not loving Apple at times. If someone prefers Android over iOS, it doesn't mean they are automatically a troll.

Could not have said it better than this.


@OP
Internet should not be taken seriously, just ignore troll threads and move on.

JoeG4
Dec 22, 2011, 12:05 AM
What about someone that uses everything? I use all sorts of products and rarely have issues with any of them - whether it be made by Apple or not.

I like my Apple gear and intend to buy plenty more in the future, but is it considered trolling with the patent/lawsuit topics to produce counterarguments? When I speak of these my intention is to discuss it as a nerd with other nerds, not for or against apple.

-aggie-
Dec 22, 2011, 12:10 AM
I have submitted indisputable evidence of some compulsive liars, the last user I noted is still around.

I, for one, agree with you. Those of us who actively use these forums KNOW who the trolls are. MR, for some reason, chooses to let them stay around.

ChazUK
Dec 22, 2011, 08:17 AM
Not sure which thread you are referencing/quoting but this is what I feel about it.

In one post says I have no problem with my iPhone.
This IMO is fine (it's an opinion or reflects a genuine experience).

Six hours later claimed 3 replacements, and "battery life is crap, phone dies".
Once again, this could be someone's genuine experience.

Then calls apple users "stupid idiots".
This is when (IMO) that poster has crossed the line and is out to insult a subset of people/users collectively. At that point I may go for the http://cdn.macrumors.com/vb/images/buttons/report.gif button to express my concerns.

I do get sick of reading terms like "iTards (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13763922&postcount=541)", "WinTards (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12408642&postcount=86)", "Macfags (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13716946&postcount=9)" "Fandroids" (Something (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12513539&postcount=12) that (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12246280&postcount=2) you (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12232553&postcount=58) don't (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12133497&postcount=8) mind (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12133497&postcount=8) doing (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=11962325&postcount=27) yourself (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=11512978&postcount=39)) as they seem little more than petty ways to dig at others.

Voting works in some cases, here's a case that it's not working:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1295044
It seems that the majority do not agree with your view in that situation. Not much else to say about that really.

Hellhammer
Dec 22, 2011, 08:32 AM
Example user:

In one post says I have no problem with my iPhone. Six hours later claimed 3 replacements, and "battery life is crap, phone dies". Then calls apple users "stupid idiots".

So do you think this user has gone through 3 replacement phones and changed his opinion in six hours? This same user repeats the same strategy for different devices.

It's not our job to determine is someone telling the truth. Besides, how could we do that? We can't require our members to send proofs to support every single post they make.

If someone says he owns an MBP, how do we know that is really the case? In the end, forums are built upon trust. Every user can make their own conclusions whether someone is telling the truth.

Voting works in some cases, here's a case that it's not working:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1295044

You can vote up or down, that's how it works. I see nothing nonfunctional in the thread you linked. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that it's not working.

This is when (IMO) that poster has crossed the line and is out to insult a subset of people/users collectively. At that point I may go for the Image (http://cdn.macrumors.com/vb/images/buttons/report.gif) button to express my concerns.

That would definitely be a violation of the rules.

I do get sick of reading terms like "iTards (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13763922&postcount=541)", "WinTards (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12408642&postcount=86)", "Macfags (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13716946&postcount=9)" "Fandroids" (Something (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12513539&postcount=12) that (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12246280&postcount=2) you (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12232553&postcount=58) don't (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12133497&postcount=8) mind (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12133497&postcount=8) doing (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=11962325&postcount=27) yourself (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=11512978&postcount=39)) as they seem little more than petty ways to dig at others.

I would say all those are violations as well. We don't allow the words "troll" or "fanboy" either, and the cases you linked are no different. The word "retard" (and any modification of it) is particularly bad because there really are people with disabilities and it's certainly not fun if you know someone who is "retarded". Hence I would advice not to use that word at all, not even in general cases (e.g. Microsoft is so retarded - which isn't a violation of the rules but definitely something we don't want to see). It's basically the same as with the word "gay".

GGJstudios
Dec 22, 2011, 09:33 AM
I do get sick of reading terms like "iTards (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13763922&postcount=541)", "WinTards (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12408642&postcount=86)", "Macfags (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=13716946&postcount=9)" "Fandroids" (Something (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12513539&postcount=12) that (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12246280&postcount=2) you (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12232553&postcount=58) don't (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12133497&postcount=8) mind (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=12133497&postcount=8) doing (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=11962325&postcount=27) yourself (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=11512978&postcount=39)) as they seem little more than petty ways to dig at others.
Did you bother to report these posts? If not, you have no reason to complain about them. Moderators can't see every post, so they rely on members to report them. In a couple of those examples, there is a clear violation, as the poster was insulting a forum member, which I reported. In all the latter ones, the derogatory term was used to refer to an unspecified group of people, not any forum members. I've seen such statements remain, even after reporting them, my guess being because they don't specifically violate forum rules.

ChazUK
Dec 22, 2011, 09:50 AM
Did you bother to report these posts? If not, you have no reason to complain about them.

And just like the moderators, I can't see every post but what I can do is use the search function to find common insults slung about the boards. Those were simply results of those above search terms. Even though I may not have seen them when first posted does not mean I am not entitled to complain about that type of sweeping insult.

I do report posts that I feel overstep the mark or blatantly disregard the rules (spam, insults, inappropriate comments e.t.c). Sometimes they are acted upon, sometimes not.

I find the moderation and administration here to be superb overall making it a good community for discussion.

yg17
Dec 22, 2011, 10:16 AM
Voting works in some cases, here's a case that it's not working:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1295044


I think that's one of the rare instances of the system working. You and a few others make a ridiculous post claiming that Microsoft is copying Apple by not doing a keynote at CES, and get downrated because it truly was an asinine comment.

Lord Blackadder
Dec 22, 2011, 01:20 PM
As a response to the thread title, I have to disagree; there are a few specific forums that have appeared and grown massively in a short space of time - the iPhone forum being perhaps the best example - and these are the places that seem to have the worst behavior. These also happen to be the forums that have the broadest, net-wide appeal. So it stands to reason that the behavior there better represents the internet as a whole.

And the internet, as we know, is full of bad behavior. The core membership of this site is very well-behaved. In the long term, troublemakers seem end up getting bored and leaving, or eventually cross the line and are banned.

JoeG4
Dec 22, 2011, 04:25 PM
you and a few others make a ridiculous post claiming that microsoft is copying apple by not doing a keynote at ces, and get downrated because it truly was an asinine comment.

lol.

My favorite MS "prank" is their way of antagonizing Apple by opening MS stores across the street from Apple stores.

saving107
Dec 22, 2011, 04:37 PM
lol.

My favorite MS "prank" is their way of antagonizing Apple by opening MS stores across the street from Apple stores.

Seeing as how you are from the bay area, have you visited the MS store in Valley Faire?

Consultant
Dec 22, 2011, 05:02 PM
At least in 2006 people were pro Apple!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14047620#post14047620

wikus: "Is this your first day on Macrumors? The forum is actually overrun by Apple fanboys, and its been so for years. My favourite example [images from 2006]"

JoeG4
Dec 22, 2011, 06:11 PM
People here still are pro-Apple. Do I have to see thread after thread about how Google should cease to exist because when you open the app drawer on a black Android phone with rounded edges it sorta looks like an iPhone? I'm still very Apple friendly, but I'm not very happy about seeing stuff like that all the time lol.

I know people are going to disagree about stuff but why so much fighting?

yg17
Dec 22, 2011, 06:17 PM
At least in 2006 people were pro Apple!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14047620#post14047620

wikus: "Is this your first day on Macrumors? The forum is actually overrun by Apple fanboys, and its been so for years. My favourite example [images from 2006]"

Being pro-Apple doesn't mean not calling out Apple when they file ridiculous lawsuit after ridiculous lawsuit. Being pro-Apple doesn't mean not seeing the good qualities of competing products and companies. And being pro-Apple does not mean a refusal to see imperfections in the company and their products.

Stop treating Apple like a religion. It's just a company.

Phil A.
Dec 22, 2011, 06:26 PM
The reason can be summed up in one word: Android

I think the people reading this thread are smart enough, and perceptive enough, to understand the unique combination of technical, commercial, and societal factors that have brought this situation about.

When (to cite but one example) a major Android maker basically endorses and encourages (http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/samsung-mocks-iphone-4s-buyers-in-new-commercial-1042810) this sort of obnoxiousness, its not hard to see where the problem comes from.

What, if anything, can be done about it is another matter entirely.

With respect, I couldn't disagree more - the problem IMO is far more complex than that and there are as many problems caused by rabid supporters of Apple as there are problems caused by obvious trolls

I've been a member here a few years and have several Macs and an iPad. I also have a Samsung Galaxy S2 and an Asus Transformer. I am happy to support Apple when they are right, and criticise them when I don't think they are.

However, if I made a post criticising something Apple had done from my SGS2 (which would post that fact at the top of the post if I used the mobile site), I can pretty much guarantee that I'd be immediately down-voted and probably called a fandroid within minutes. That sort of behaviour is at least as damaging as deliberate trolling IMO...

JoeG4
Dec 22, 2011, 06:38 PM
That and most of the complainers are rather new...

something3153
Dec 22, 2011, 11:12 PM
A person who posts about how much Motorcycles suck might be seen as a troll in a Motorcycle forum, whereas it would be hard for a someone who loves Motorcycles to be seen as a troll in the same forum

So arn, does this site require posters to be pro-Apple? The byline says "news and rumors you care about". I care about computer news as a whole, so this applies to me. Nonetheless, I am not pro-Apple, and will criticize them when I believe it's appropriate. Are people who disagree with Apple's actions, or believe that their products are not always the best, welcome here? If so, I'm putting your response in my signature, since a lot of people believe I shouldn't be. If not, please do make the byline "news and rumors for Apple fans", or something accurate like that.

GGJstudios
Dec 22, 2011, 11:17 PM
So arn, does this site require posters to be pro-Apple?
Arn's not talking about site requirements. He's talking about the likelihood of someone finding common ground with forum members. If you're pro-Windows, you're more likely to find those who share your views in a Windows forum, and you're more likely to find those with opposing views in a pro-Mac forum. The reverse is also true. It's just common sense.

vrDrew
Dec 22, 2011, 11:45 PM
With respect, I couldn't disagree more - the problem IMO is far more complex than that and there are as many problems caused by rabid supporters of Apple as there are problems caused by obvious trolls.

If someone is an "enthusiastic" user of an Android phone, then I have one very serious question for them: Why are they here?

Every self-professed Android user visiting this sort of site ought to be prepared to answer that question.

If they have a technical question about their own phone, surely there are more appropriate forums to use. But quite frankly, the main reason Android users show up here is to antagonize iPhone users. And you'd have to do a heck of a lot to convince me otherwise.

PS. I keep reading about these "rabid" Apple enthusiasts. I never actually encounter them. Strange, don't you think?

chrono1081
Dec 22, 2011, 11:54 PM
If someone is an "enthusiastic" user of an Android phone, then I have one very serious question for them: Why are they here?

Every self-professed Android user visiting this sort of site ought to be prepared to answer that question.

If they have a technical question about their own phone, surely there are more appropriate forums to use. But quite frankly, the main reason Android users show up here is to antagonize iPhone users. And you'd have to do a heck of a lot to convince me otherwise.

PS. I keep reading about these "rabid" Apple enthusiasts. I never actually encounter them. Strange, don't you think?

I 100% agree on this. I never have seen rabid Apple enthusiasts either and I've been on this forum for a few years now.

I do see plenty of the trolls though.

JoeG4
Dec 23, 2011, 12:27 AM
If someone is an "enthusiastic" user of an Android phone, then I have one very serious question for them: Why are they here?


Here's a counter question:

Why do you think Mac users have to be iPhone users? There are a number of other products out there one might use for their phone (including dumbphones!) and it is not required to even like iOS to like Macs.

I mean, this site is called MacRumors, it launched about half a decade before the iPhone, and there are probably plenty of Mac users that love their Macs and don't even like iPhones.

I've seen people that loved their iPhone and vocally still didn't like Macs lol.

I think the "rabid" enthusiasts are people that say stuff intended to upset people.

Like this:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=841558

arn
Dec 23, 2011, 01:09 AM
So arn, does this site require posters to be pro-Apple? The byline says "news and rumors you care about". I care about computer news as a whole, so this applies to me. Nonetheless, I am not pro-Apple, and will criticize them when I believe it's appropriate. Are people who disagree with Apple's actions, or believe that their products are not always the best, welcome here? If so, I'm putting your response in my signature, since a lot of people believe I shouldn't be. If not, please do make the byline "news and rumors for Apple fans", or something accurate like that.

As mentioned above, this site is not just for pro-Apple people. We have plenty of people who disagree with Apple's actions or criticize them as they see fit.

Trolling, however, is posting simply to maximize emotional response. It's far different than any reasonable discussion. To successfully troll on an Apple site, you go hard anti-Apple. To successfully troll on a religion site, you go hard anti-religion. That's all I'm saying.

arn

Phil A.
Dec 23, 2011, 02:15 AM
If someone is an "enthusiastic" user of an Android phone, then I have one very serious question for them: Why are they here?


I'm "enthusiastic" user of an android phone but I have used Macs exclusively since 2001 and have an iPad. I have also owned an iPhone, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4: please tell me why I shouldn't be a (paying) member of MacRumors - it's not just for users of the iPhone!

Hellhammer
Dec 23, 2011, 03:01 AM
I 100% agree on this. I never have seen rabid Apple enthusiasts either and I've been on this forum for a few years now.

I do see plenty of the trolls though.

There are several members who defend Apple no matter what action they make. That's no longer pro-Apple, it's something worse and sometimes crosses the line of trolling.

Trolling, however, is posting simply to maximize emotional response. It's far different than any reasonable discussion. To successfully troll on an Apple site, you go hard anti-Apple. To successfully troll on a religion site, you go hard anti-religion. That's all I'm saying.

There have been quite a few successive pro-Apple trolls as well. I shall not mention usernames but trolling is not limited to anti-Apple behavior.

yg17
Dec 23, 2011, 06:33 AM
If someone is an "enthusiastic" user of an Android phone, then I have one very serious question for them: Why are they here?

Every self-professed Android user visiting this sort of site ought to be prepared to answer that question.

If they have a technical question about their own phone, surely there are more appropriate forums to use. But quite frankly, the main reason Android users show up here is to antagonize iPhone users. And you'd have to do a heck of a lot to convince me otherwise.

PS. I keep reading about these "rabid" Apple enthusiasts. I never actually encounter them. Strange, don't you think?

Since when did Apple stop manufacturing computers, iPods and iPads?

It is possible to own and enjoy an Android phone and still have a Mac. Not that owning any Apple products is actually a requirement of being a member here.

roadbloc
Dec 23, 2011, 10:14 AM
At least in 2006 people were pro Apple!
So you admit that you want MR to be filled with pro-apple users? And that it's okay to call someone a 'fandroid' but not when they return a similar insult?

If that isn't what you call being hypocritical, I don't know what is.

AAPLaday
Dec 23, 2011, 11:03 AM
The OP has called people fandroids and MS users M$ etc for ages now. So much more i could write here but i wont. Pot kettle black

steve2112
Dec 23, 2011, 11:16 AM
There have been quite a few successive pro-Apple trolls as well. I shall not mention usernames but trolling is not limited to anti-Apple behavior.

Exactly. We have all seen it, where someone posts a link to an article about, say, Android, and only pulls out selective phrases in order to make it appear negative. Oh yeah, and then posts some type of headline of their own making that makes the article appear to be something other than what it is. I'm convinced Apple could release a rock with an Apple logo, and these people would call it the most brilliant thing ever developed.

Since when did Apple stop manufacturing computers, iPods and iPads?

It is possible to own and enjoy an Android phone and still have a Mac. Not that owning any Apple products is actually a requirement of being a member here.

I have Macs and an Android phone. I like OSX, but I don't care for iOS. I suppose that makes me a hater or something.

So you admit that you want MR to be filled with pro-apple users? And that it's okay to call someone a 'fandroid' but not when they return a similar insult?

If that isn't what you call being hypocritical, I don't know what is.

THIS^^^

vrDrew
Dec 23, 2011, 12:09 PM
Since when did Apple stop manufacturing computers, iPods and iPads?


I'm surprised you didn't choose one of those Apple products to use in your avatar.

But then, having an Apple logo wouldn't be very provocative, would it?

Thanks for proving my point.

MacNut
Dec 23, 2011, 12:46 PM
I'm surprised you didn't choose one of those Apple products to use in your avatar.

But then, having an Apple logo wouldn't be very provocative, would it?

Thanks for proving my point.So we all have to use Apple avatars now?

JAT
Dec 23, 2011, 11:43 PM
So arn, does this site require posters to be pro-Apple? The byline says "news and rumors you care about". I care about computer news as a whole, so this applies to me. Nonetheless, I am not pro-Apple, and will criticize them when I believe it's appropriate. Are people who disagree with Apple's actions, or believe that their products are not always the best, welcome here? If so, I'm putting your response in my signature, since a lot of people believe I shouldn't be. If not, please do make the byline "news and rumors for Apple fans", or something accurate like that.
Too many of your posts are about other posters, not Apple itself. If arn is looking for a rule, treatment of other posters ought to be it.
I 100% agree on this. I never have seen rabid Apple enthusiasts either and I've been on this forum for a few years now.

I do see plenty of the trolls though.
I 100% agree, also. And I have seen these nitwits that detest Apple and Mac owners since the 1980s. If there is a religion about Apple, it is the anti-Apple people that are dogmatic. It's retarded.

It's pretty easy to see what happened around here. Find a person who signed up around April 2007, you'll see a forum number around 100000. Now we are over 600000. So 6 years to get 100k, 4 more years to sextuple it....iPhone. Apparently, cellphones bring out the childishness.

vrDrew
Dec 24, 2011, 01:43 AM
So we all have to use Apple avatars now?

One's choice in avatars is (within reason) completely unlimited.

But my contention, borne out by thousands of observations, is that the sort of person who comes to an Apple-orientated site, and chooses to loudly flaunt his Android obsession (via avatar, signature, or whatever), is a strange person indeed. They aren't here to share technical tips. They aren't here to find common cause with a community of Mac owners. And frankly I doubt they are here to share inside information or thoughtful observations from the Apple universe.

They are here for one purpose. To be obnoxious. And in that endeavor they are frequently successful.

knuckelz
Dec 24, 2011, 03:06 AM
I would say all those are violations as well. We don't allow the words "troll" or "fanboy" either, and the cases you linked are no different. The word "retard" (and any modification of it) is particularly bad because there really are people with disabilities and it's certainly not fun if you know someone who is "retarded". Hence I would advice not to use that word at all, not even in general cases (e.g. Microsoft is so retarded - which isn't a violation of the rules but definitely something we don't want to see). It's basically the same as with the word "gay".

I hate to derail (even if only slightly) such an interesting topic, but I am very curious about people who say we should not use words like "retarded" or "gay" to describe things (other than mentally handicapped people or homosexuals, respectively). What words should we use then? Not dumb, because that is a term to describe people who can't speak. What is an acceptable replacement word? I know that may sound like sarcasm, but I am very serious. I would like to know a suitable replacement. Just use the word stupid perhaps?

The OP has called people fandroids and MS users M$ etc for ages now. So much more i could write here but i wont. Pot kettle black
This may make me sound a little slow, but I never even thought of M$ as being derogatory. Haha, I always thought it was pro-microsoft actually. Now, I'm just glad I never used it.

On topic: I think being civil is rather easy. There is no need to resort to name calling. I think lively discussion is very interesting, but trolling (by any side) just dulls the overall experience. I find it very interesting to have non-apple users on here. They bring a different side to the discussion, and everyone benefits from seeing things from more than one perspective. Then again, I also find it easy to ignore people who do/say things just to get attention.

saving107
Dec 24, 2011, 03:26 AM
What words should we use then?

The context of the discussion will determine the proper term to use.

But an Example: A certain situation can be "Un-fair" rather than "Retarted", or "Unfortunate" rather than "Gay".

Hellhammer
Dec 24, 2011, 03:57 AM
I hate to derail (even if only slightly) such an interesting topic, but I am very curious about people who say we should not use words like "retarded" or "gay" to describe things (other than mentally handicapped people or homosexuals, respectively). What words should we use then? Not dumb, because that is a term to describe people who can't speak. What is an acceptable replacement word? I know that may sound like sarcasm, but I am very serious. I would like to know a suitable replacement. Just use the word stupid perhaps?

saving107's recommendations are pretty good. Unfair and unfortunate are very neutral words and definitely not insulting toward anyone. Thesaurus (http://thesaurus.com/browse/unfair) is also very good at finding synonyms in case you want to use more colorful language. It's even built into the dictionary of OS X (just right click a word and select "Look up in Dictionary"). Heck, I learn a bunch of new words every time I use it :D

It's always better to ask. There are no stupid questions :)

This may make me sound a little slow, but I never even thought of M$ as being derogatory. Haha, I always thought it was pro-microsoft actually. Now, I'm just glad I never used it.

Neither have I, to be honest. I think it's sometimes even better than MS because everyone knows that M$ means Microsoft, whereas MS could be an abbreviation of something else too.

JoeG4
Dec 24, 2011, 05:29 AM
the sort of person who comes to an Apple-orientated site, and chooses to loudly flaunt his Android obsession (via avatar, signature, or whatever), is a strange person indeed.


vrDrew, I am so disgusted in your comment I've decided to adapt a similar avatar. CONGRATULATIONS!

decksnap
Dec 24, 2011, 08:35 AM
One's choice in avatars is (within reason) completely unlimited.

But my contention, borne out by thousands of observations, is that the sort of person who comes to an Apple-orientated site, and chooses to loudly flaunt his Android obsession (via avatar, signature, or whatever), is a strange person indeed. They aren't here to share technical tips. They aren't here to find common cause with a community of Mac owners. And frankly I doubt they are here to share inside information or thoughtful observations from the Apple universe.

They are here for one purpose. To be obnoxious. And in that endeavor they are frequently successful.

Yup. And when people start coming to the pool just to **** in it, it's not a very fun place to swim.

something3153
Dec 24, 2011, 07:48 PM
Too many of your posts are about other posters, not Apple itself. If arn is looking for a rule, treatment of other posters ought to be it.

The only thing I post about other posters is when they display a clear bias. That includes you. Does pointing out that you display a clear pro-Apple bias offend you that badly?

JAT
Dec 24, 2011, 08:16 PM
The only thing I post about other posters is when they display a clear bias. That includes you. Does pointing out that you display a clear pro-Apple bias offend you that badly?
Oh god. Another one.

So..."bias", huh. Is this journalism class? My opinion (based on experience, btw) is "biased", AND "bias" is bad, right? So, in YOUR opinion, complaining about my "bias" is justified.

Question. Do you know the definition of the word: reality.

Maybe you could also quantify just how bad "bias" is in your world. Murder level? Rape? Theft? Did I kick your dog? :rolleyes:

rmwebs
Dec 25, 2011, 02:57 PM
There's definitely been a bit more contentious vibe to the major comment threads these days, and I'm not sure the best way to combat it.

It's unfortunately a side effect of popularity.

I know some people object to the voting buttons, and like I said when we started it was a bit of an experiment, to get more data. I think we could go further with it, but there are those that seem opposed to it.

arn

The best way/only way to combat it is to stop the patent threads - they are what set it off.

A lot of it is not Apple haters, but complete idiots that blindly follow Apple like they are some kind of all powerful force. When someone comes into a thread and starts posting "Android sux, iOS is the best" or "Android is a rip off of iOS" its going to start an argument.

IMO there are three very prominent members who regularly do this, and their participation in threads involves spreading lies and crap to make iOS look like it's perfect, and that Android is some kind of direct rip off. They never back a single argument up, and always provoke people.

The sooner (no disrespect here) some of the lazy mods pull their finger out and ban these members or warn them, the sooner we can all carry on with sensible discussions. It should be possible to talk about apples competitors here without having some moronic kid shouting "Andoid Sux" every other post.

---

I'm a big fan of both Android and iOS...what does that make me in the childish made up terms? An Droiappboy? I regularly see people putting their Apple or Android opinions as facts, and thats what pisses some members off (admittedly myself included).

But lets be 100% clear and honest here. The problem is not Apple Haters. Its both Apple Blind Followers AND Haters (although I dont think they are Haters...but people with Macs and an Android handset in most cases).

Either way, the problem is very quick and easy to fix, and its only MacRumors staff that can do it.

JoeG4
Dec 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
I am disappointed at how little restraint people can show - there was a thread that just went by where an iPhone owner's plug shorted out and burned out the bottom of their phone. Half the posts in that thread were accusing the user of dunking their phone in water and HOW DARE THEY LIE ABOUT IT. As if Apple has never made a defective product before.

Apple is a company run by people. that hires people to make products.. made by people. People are not perfect, they are not capable of creating perfection. The earth, for example is smoother than the smoothest ball bearing you can make with our machinery (for the most part, anyway).. take that into perspective for a moment.

I fail to understand how people get so dang worked up about it. I've regulared at a few car forums, and you know how passionate people can get about their cars - even there I did not see that level of rudeness to fellow users.

I know I'm not the best person to speak for this - I've trolled (and when you use all sorts of platforms daily it can be hard not to mess with someone that believes Apple is the most perfect company ever), and it's a horrible thing to do.

Look, Merry Christmas everyone - perhaps in the future we can start respecting people as other people instead of making an opinion about them over what device they choose to use in their daily life.

wordoflife
Dec 26, 2011, 12:55 AM
So what are we calling trolling? People who don't agree with everything Apple does, or people who think Apple is god and won't see the other side of the argument?

I agree. I don't really see what the problem is here. I don't see people blindly being annoyed with Apple (otherwise, being a troll).

jabbawok
Dec 26, 2011, 05:45 AM
I can't offer iny empirical evidence, just a sence that I get. I started reading MR probably when it got my G4 wind tunnel. People were happy to slate Apple back then but it was more affectionate, with a full sense that the alternative was Windows or Linux. One was the devil and the other was for code hacking geeks.
Android seems to have presented the only viable alternative to apple.
This seems to created a real opposition to Apple the seems to rally people.
I just wish the droid fans would populate another forum instead of starting threads on MR about how much better in every way their Nexus is. Asside from being bs, I don't care.
I wouldn't go on a Harley forum and go on about what a pile of pig-iron I think they are. It's just rude.

Hellhammer
Dec 26, 2011, 06:33 AM
A lot of it is not Apple haters, but complete idiots that blindly follow Apple like they are some kind of all powerful force. When someone comes into a thread and starts posting "Android sux, iOS is the best" or "Android is a rip off of iOS" its going to start an argument.

Posts like that count as trolling. Report them and we will delete them and replies to them.

The sooner (no disrespect here) some of the lazy mods pull their finger out and ban these members or warn them, the sooner we can all carry on with sensible discussions. It should be possible to talk about apples competitors here without having some moronic kid shouting "Andoid Sux" every other post.

Our laziness is not the problem. Right now there are zero open post reports. It would be far easier for us to just ban people who cause even a small bit of trouble, but that's not fair. We have set our policies and moderation is based on them. Of course, policies can be changed so we will reconsider our current policy and see if it can be improved.

The problem in trolling is that oftentimes it's borderline. We can't ban users because their opinion is extremely biased. Everyone is allowed to express their opinion, whether it's pro- or anti-Apple does not matter. Trolling is definitely one of the hardest cases because it's very subjective. If you're pro-Apple, then you will see anti-Apple posts as trolling, even though they were completely appropriate.

Either way, the problem is very quick and easy to fix, and its only MacRumors staff that can do it.

Sure, fixing one problem is always easy but we have to think about the consequences as well. Moderation must be based on the Forum Rules and our policies, we can't just make up new rules and start banning people we don't like. If we ban this user because of something, then we have to apply that something to other users as well. In the end, we have to think is that something really a reason for banning. In this case, that something could be e.g. an extremely biased point of view.

Rawkfist
Dec 26, 2011, 02:41 PM
Paul Graham (http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html) via Gruber (http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/12/13/trolls):



Happening a lot with anything that mentions Android / iPhone.

As a long time Macrumors reader and more recently forum member, I am seeing more trolling happening in the past years. Perhaps MR needs to enforce the rude comment rule (perhaps calling someone fanboy = 1 warning then ban).

I've also seen examples of some users who are perpetual liars not being banned yet.
Trolls are only effective if you get into a "debate" with them. I tend to take them for what they are and ignore them. Often easier said than done. If I feel someone is engaging me into a discussion I'll participate. It's impossible to win an argument in a forum like this one. It's really easy to flame someone with the protection of anonymity.

annk
Dec 26, 2011, 04:25 PM
...I think being civil is rather easy. There is no need to resort to name calling. I think lively discussion is very interesting, but trolling (by any side) just dulls the overall experience. I find it very interesting to have non-apple users on here. They bring a different side to the discussion, and everyone benefits from seeing things from more than one perspective. Then again, I also find it easy to ignore people who do/say things just to get attention.

^ This IMO is the right attitude. My only suggestion would be to report the posts you think are created for trolling purposes. Trolling is a pattern, and it's not always easy - for members or the moderators - to be certain when someone is stating a strong opinion in a not-very-diplomatic way, and when someone is only out to start an argument. It's often something that makes itself clear only over a period of time.

It's important to remember that it's fine to post about non-Apple devices and systems in the most appropriate thread, as long as the reason for posting is to have a constructive discussion. It's not so strange that Apple users who also use other devices and systems, and want to compare them with Apple products, are interested in the opinions of their fellow Apple users.

Sometimes I see members jumping in as soon as someone posts about another system, with posts like "Why are you here?" or "Why don't you post over at X forums?". As far as I'm concerned, those posts are off-topic and unhelpful. If you think a member is posting to annoy (= trolling), then report them. But don't respond with a comment that's just as likely to drag the conversation off the rails. It only creates more clean-up work for the moderators.

A while back we introduced Rules for Appropriate Debate (http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:Rules_for_Appropriate_Debate). They're especially applicable in discussions where feelings and tempers run hot.

Eager Beaver
Dec 26, 2011, 09:18 PM
So what are we calling trolling? People who don't agree with everything Apple does, or people who think Apple is god and won't see the other side of the argument?



I agree with this post - like the Pot, calling the kettle Black !!!

decksnap
Dec 27, 2011, 09:11 AM
I wouldn't go on a Harley forum and go on about what a pile of pig-iron I think they are. It's just rude.

This is the crux of it. It's not like this is a general forum where it's somehow 'fair' to have the the discussion be 50% apple and 50% android.

A better example would be a Harley enthusiast meetup (in person). Could you imagine being the dickhead who shows up there just to walk around, talk **** about Harleys and tell everyone how their non-Harley bike is so much better?

Now, could you imagine hundreds of dickheads doing the same thing?

ILikeTurtles
Dec 27, 2011, 09:54 AM
It's easy for "haters" to throw bombs and run away.

Hellhammer
Dec 27, 2011, 04:02 PM
This is the crux of it. It's not like this is a general forum where it's somehow 'fair' to have the the discussion be 50% apple and 50% android.

A better example would be a Harley enthusiast meetup (in person). Could you imagine being the dickhead who shows up there just to walk around, talk **** about Harleys and tell everyone how their non-Harley bike is so much better?

Now, could you imagine hundreds of dickheads doing the same thing?

I don't think these cases are strictly comparable, though. The user base of a Harley forum consists of middle aged adults, or at least that's what I would guess. However, our users are in their early to mid 20s on average I would say (I don't know if there are any statistics of this?). iPhone has brought a lot youngsters in here because it's very popular among teenagers (and even kids, around ~12). While being young doesn't necessarily mean you're not capable of having a legit debate (I just turned 18 myself), it's definitely more likely that you don't have the maturity it takes to admit you're wrong for instance. Or you fail to see that people have different needs and hence buy different devices.

Moreover, technology is for everyone. Everyone needs a phone and many people in the Western countries prefer a smartphone nowadays. How many have Harleys, though? This creates possibility for more people to participate forums like this, which adds the possibility of different views.

In the end, I think the problem is that oftentimes, people forget that these things are just freaking phones and whatnot. You didn't innovate them. Your dad didn't innovate them. They were innovated by faceless companies. Why defend them like they were your own babies?

Consultant
Dec 27, 2011, 04:24 PM
As mentioned before, I've already pointed out similar threads as these:

"Hi I'm a fourteen year old"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14027559#post14027559

"being a 13 year old"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14061895#post14061895

Surely those "facts" can't be confirmed thus those users could stay?

Hellhammer
Dec 27, 2011, 04:33 PM
As mentioned before, I've already pointed out similar threads as these:

"Hi I'm a fourteen year old"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14027559#post14027559

"being a 13 year old"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14061895#post14061895

Surely those "facts" can't be confirmed thus those users could stay?

I see nothing wrong in those threads. We require our users to be at least 13 years old (Registration Agreement (http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:Registration_Agreement)), hence no rules have been violated. The questions the user asks are completely valid. The replies are also fine and most people seem to ignore his age.

saving107
Dec 27, 2011, 04:34 PM
I don't think these cases are strictly comparable, though. The user base of a Harley forum consists of middle aged adults, or at least that's what I would guess. However, our users are in their early to mid 20s on average I would say (I don't know if there are any statistics of this?). iPhone has brought a lot youngsters in here because it's very popular among teenagers (and even kids, around ~12). While being young doesn't necessarily mean you're not capable of having a legit debate (I just turned 18 myself), it's definitely more likely that you don't have the maturity it takes to admit you're wrong for instance. Or you fail to see that people have different needs and hence buy different devices.



Even though this does not reflect everyone on this board, I think it gives a good visual of the user base here on MacRumors, at least on the iPhone Forum (where most of the bickering seems to take place).

How old are you? - Poll
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1230345

vrDrew
Dec 27, 2011, 10:04 PM
Moreover, technology is for everyone. Everyone needs a phone and many people in the Western countries prefer a smartphone nowadays. How many have Harleys, though? This creates possibility for more people to participate forums like this, which adds the possibility of different views.

I have no interest in talking with a spoiled, obnoxious 14 year old who is acting like a spoiled, obnoxious 14 year old. (Or with a 45 year old acting the same way, for that matter.) I'm not interested in their opinion on anything, from smartphones to cloud computing to international patent litigation.

And I'd guess that most sensible adults feel the same way.

Several long-term forum participants have remarked, in this thread, how a flood of Android-wielding children is making the discussion unpleasant. You may feel that "technology is for everyone" is enough of an answer. I would suggest that, for the long-term good of the community, it isn't.

JoeG4
Dec 28, 2011, 01:02 AM
My observation was that the older users may or may not necessarily be fans of iOS because they came here to discuss Macs first and foremost. That would include myself, since I have devices from every platform and don't particularly care one way or another.

Call me biased if you want, but I see far more derogatory and down right insulting posts directed at people that don't have iPhones or iPads or whatever, than the other way around - yes it definitely exists, and I'm sad to see that..

Why does it happen anyway? 14 year old dude.. your parents gave you a white iPhone for Christmas! Fantastic! I'm happy for you! If you have to go around talking about how crappy Android is, something's wrong with you.

Android user: Does it piss you off when people whine about how slow their Evo HD 4G XTREME took 0.2 seconds longer to open the Maps program than the iPhone 4S does? Yea... same here. I'm sick of it, however I'm here as a Mac guy. Whatever. lol I've seen enough similar posts about how Windows laptops explode after 6 months and get 10 viruses a day too. I guess you just gotta put up with it.

I know I haven't put up with it too well. :\

Hellhammer
Dec 28, 2011, 05:21 AM
I have no interest in talking with a spoiled, obnoxious 14 year old who is acting like a spoiled, obnoxious 14 year old. (Or with a 45 year old acting the same way, for that matter.) I'm not interested in their opinion on anything, from smartphones to cloud computing to international patent litigation.

And I'd guess that most sensible adults feel the same way.

Everyone is still entitled to post their own opinion. I doubt any of us would support censorship and allowing only certain opinions. Why is your opinion any better than the 14-year-old's opinion? Some users may dislike your opinions as well, but that doesn't mean we should start deleting your posts.

Several long-term forum participants have remarked, in this thread, how a flood of Android-wielding children is making the discussion unpleasant. You may feel that "technology is for everyone" is enough of an answer. I would suggest that, for the long-term good of the community, it isn't.

The problem isn't only Android users like I have stated in this thread several times. There is nothing wrong in comparing Apple's devices to competitors' devices, as long as it's done in a proper way. We don't live in an Apple bubble, so there is no need to act that way.

Lets put it this way. What policy would you suggest? Any post that mentions a non-Apple device gets deleted? The best way to get things changed is to provide ways how we can improve moderation. Just saying "fix it" doesn't help much.

OllyW
Dec 28, 2011, 06:09 AM
I have no interest in talking with a spoiled, obnoxious 14 year old who is acting like a spoiled, obnoxious 14 year old. (Or with a 45 year old acting the same way, for that matter.) I'm not interested in their opinion on anything, from smartphones to cloud computing to international patent litigation.

And I'd guess that most sensible adults feel the same way.

You don't have to talk to them. As a 'sensible adult' why can't you simply choose to ignore them and move on to the next post in the thread? If you think they are breaking the rules report it and we will investigate. Don't engage in a series of tit-for-tat posts to try and prove them wrong because that only makes matters worse.

Several long-term forum participants have remarked, in this thread, how a flood of Android-wielding children is making the discussion unpleasant. You may feel that "technology is for everyone" is enough of an answer. I would suggest that, for the long-term good of the community, it isn't.

Android fans are not the only problem. There are also a number of over-the-top Apple fans that upset just as many long-term forum participants with their posts. Should we also get rid of them for the long-term good of the community?

As already stated many times in this thread, this site isn't restricted to pro-Apple users and nor should it ever be.

rocknblogger
Dec 28, 2011, 06:49 AM
What I think annoys most people is when there's a conversation going on about an Apple product and someone will come in and post why a non Apple product is better.

I think that's the most frustrating type of thing because if I'm talking about my iPhone I'm not looking for input about Android, unless I ask for it.

It works the other way too. I think we have to be mindful about what the conversation is about before throwing in our two cents.

annk
Dec 28, 2011, 12:37 PM
This discussion never seems to end, and I think it's because the focus is off. The problem is trolling, not the flavour of the trolling. Trolling was, is, and unfortunately will continue to be a part of Internet forums.

Yes, it's annoying when someone jumps into a thread dedicated to a specific iPhone issue to say that Android's better. It's equally irritating when someone defends Apple products simply because they're Apple products. These kinds of comments are trolling. They are only intended to disrupt the discussion, and we're not interested in allowing that.

And - it's discouraging when someone tries to start a reasonable discussion about the merits of the two systems, only to have a "loyal" MR member jump in to say something like "Why are you even here?", or "This is an Apple-related forum :rolleyes:". It's a misguided loyalty IMO.

The solution is this simple:


If you see trolling, any kind of trolling, report it.
Before you report someone for comparing Apple products or system to those of another company, ask yourself this: is it really trolling, or are you just annoyed that someone brought up Android/Windows/whatever? If you feel it's trolling, please do report it. If it just annoys you, ignore the post - and don't take the thread off-topic by bashing the poster.


What I think annoys most people is when there's a conversation going on about an Apple product and someone will come in and post why a non Apple product is better.

I think that's the most frustrating type of thing because if I'm talking about my iPhone I'm not looking for input about Android, unless I ask for it.

It works the other way too. I think we have to be mindful about what the conversation is about before throwing in our two cents.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Peace
Dec 28, 2011, 12:48 PM
Snip


And - it's discouraging when someone tries to start a reasonable discussion about the merits of the two systems, only to have a "loyal" MR member jump in to say something like "Why are you even here?", or "This is an Apple-related forum :rolleyes:". It's a misguided loyalty IMO.



annk as much as I respect you I must add here. And not in an apple fanboy way that Macrumors IS about all things Apple/Mac. I don't consider that being misguided. It's not. This is a Mac forum. The very name of the forum infers this.

If you guys want to broaden the reach and re-name this place everythingrumors.com then do so.

I've always thought of macrumors as a place about macs and IOS devices.

I understand people will always have conversations about the good or bad of other devices here but to say any person defending macs. iPhones etc is "misguided" is a bit over.

Just my opinion mind you.
:)

annk
Dec 28, 2011, 01:04 PM
Defending is fine, Peace, if it's part of a real discussion. Any good discussion will include people who use both systems giving their pro and con experiences, and that's fine. Stating that you prefer Apple's system/product in a good discussion is normal behaviour, not trolling.

If I post a question asking about two systems because I as an Apple user am interested in other Apple users' experiences with that system, I expect members will tell me exactly why they prefer the system they do (= they'll defend their choice). That's what I want. I don't want someone to bash me in the thread for bringing it up at all.

If however someone jumps into a thread about an Apple product only to insist that another company's product is better, that's not ok. At best it's off-topic, and at worst it's trolling.

My point is that I feel the discussion veers off course. No one here wants trolling to be part of this site. But for some reason, it seems that as soon as the trolling involves Android, people lose perspective.

If an Apple user (and we'll assume that the members here are that) also uses devices or systems produced by other companies, and wants to discuss those, compare them to Apple, etc., there's no reason not to do it here. Personally, I am especially interested in what members on MR think about technology, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

My point is that the problem is trolling, period.

saving107
Dec 28, 2011, 01:09 PM
What are mods or admins opinion on thread like these

iphone 4S is faster than samsung galaxy S2
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1298659

Were the intent is clearly to create a debate.



If an Apple user (and we'll assume that the members here are that) also uses devices or systems produced by other companies, and wants to discuss those, compare them to Apple, etc., there's no reason not to do it here. Personally, I am especially interested in what members on MR think about technology, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

My point is that the problem is trolling, period.

Should those discussions be directed to Community Discussion, or are you comfortable with those discussions being held under the iPhone or iPad sub-forum?

annk
Dec 28, 2011, 01:33 PM
Since we don't discuss specific cases of moderation, commenting on specific posts is something I don't feel I can do. But I can address the issue on a general basis.

Stating anything as a blanket, unnuanced truth is not particularly constructive and is bound to irritate. There's nothing wrong with "creating a debate" as you put it, but you maybe meant "creating an argument", which of course isn't ok. Whether a poster intends to do the one or the other depends not only on how the post is worded, but what the poster meant. Some members aren't native English speakers, some members are quite young or immature and aren't good at wording their posts well, etc. And some members are trolls. Believe me, while the difference is sometimes obvious, it's often not. And that gives us headaches. :(

So what can you do when faced with a blanket statement? You can of course report it. If it seems like a clear-cut case of trolling, it SHOULD be reported. Even if the moderators decide to wait and keep an eye on a thread or a member, the post report becomes part of the over-all picture and does have an effect on any final decision. Believe me, post reports in cases of suspected trolling are a HUGE help. I know members often feel frustrated when they don't see an instant result, but please believe me on this.

You can also challenge a blanket statement with comments like "you're overlooking x", "is that based on your own experience?", or "that's not true if you take y into consideration". Then it's up to the person who made the statement to defend with facts, modify, explain, etc. If they don't, and the post is reported, the mods can delete the post or the thread. (This is the gist of the Rules for Appropriate Debate, just so you know I'm not making it up as I go along!)

Hope that was helpful. :o It's an important issue, and it's important to us that members feel we're all on the same side here.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot the second part of your question.

If the purpose of a thread is to compare - for example - a phone to the iPhone, it makes sense to have the thread in the iPhone forum. That's where you'll find the members whose opinions you're interested in. If the purpose is to discuss another system in general, and not to make a specific comparison to an Apple product or system, then it really depends on what the thread is about. It wouldn't need to go in a product- or system-specific forum. And good thread titles will make it easy for members to skip over threads they're not interested in. Really it's just common sense IMO.

Trolls of course will post where ever they think they can anger the most members!

saving107
Dec 28, 2011, 01:51 PM
SNIP

That was an awesome response, thank you very much.

and yes, I did mean argument. I went back to my post and edited from debate to argument, but I must have hit cancel instead of save so the change never took place.

Thanks.

Liquinn
Dec 28, 2011, 03:05 PM
What are mods or admins opinion on thread like these

iphone 4S is faster than samsung galaxy S2
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1298659

Were the intent is clearly to create a debate.




Should those discussions be directed to Community Discussion, or are you comfortable with those discussions being held under the iPhone or iPad sub-forum?
Is a person who has a Macbook Pro, iPad/iPhone/iPod touch and wireless mouse and keyboard considered an Apple user if he uses a 24" Samsung monitor to hook up his Macbook Pro to? Or does he have to use ALL Apple products in his set-up?

Hellhammer
Dec 29, 2011, 05:58 AM
Is a person who has a Macbook Pro, iPad/iPhone/iPod touch and wireless mouse and keyboard considered an Apple user if he uses a 24" Samsung monitor to hook up his Macbook Pro to? Or does he have to use ALL Apple products in his set-up?

I think anyone with at least one Apple device is an Apple user. There is absolutely no reason to be 100% Apple, that can get a bit ridiculous actually.

miles01110
Dec 29, 2011, 06:02 AM
I think this thread should be changed to "Why Spammers are taking over MR"

Hellhammer
Dec 29, 2011, 06:20 AM
I think this thread should be changed to "Why Spammers are taking over MR"

There seems to be something wrong in the Spy because it should not catch those threads as they are not public.

roadbloc
Dec 29, 2011, 06:27 AM
As mentioned before, I've already pointed out similar threads as these:

"Hi I'm a fourteen year old"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14027559#post14027559

"being a 13 year old"
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14061895#post14061895

Surely those "facts" can't be confirmed thus those users could stay?

What exactly is wrong with them threads? Or the OPs who have posted them? I'm failing to understand.

simsaladimbamba
Dec 29, 2011, 06:30 AM
What exactly is wrong with them threads? Or the OPs who have posted them? I'm failing to understand.

He was 14 before he was 13. I mean, I sometimes have trouble remembering my age, but not that much. Threads by this member just seem to be conflicting with each other.

And there is also the "abandon my own thread with my questions being answered with more questions" syndrome.

roadbloc
Dec 29, 2011, 08:19 AM
He was 14 before he was 13. I mean, I sometimes have trouble remembering my age, but not that much. Threads by this member just seem to be conflicting with each other.

Oh, I see. Hardly a bannable matter though. I'm not sure about this forum, but most age restrictions are to the age of 13.

Dagless
Dec 29, 2011, 08:47 AM
From a fence sitter (neither love nor hate Apple, I love and loathe some of their business practices) this site seems quite balanced. There are issues with Apple and to gloss over them/pretend they don't exist then you're only being silly.

But in terms of real trolls - as in those who just come here to annoy others - there aren't many but they do exist on both sides (not naming names, but we all know who. Infact I'd say the worst are the ultra Apple fans. They don't get banned like the joke troll accounts).

This site is still quite nice. It's just lost that lovely cosy community feel that unfortunately happens when sites get so big.

Edit: Heh, I just made a good point in one post but because it mentioned Apple's recent lawsuit business and how another company might take on them, it's frowned upon. I'd like to change my original statement - this site could do with some more balance. :)

Hellhammer
Dec 29, 2011, 09:48 AM
Oh, I see. Hardly a bannable matter though. I'm not sure about this forum, but most age restrictions are to the age of 13.

It's 13, see the Registration Agreement (http://guides.macrumors.com/Help:Registration_Agreement)

Interceptor2
Dec 29, 2011, 10:47 AM
I've seen many a good forum ruined and destroyed by trolls, people who choose to insult without adding anything useful or seek to prolong useless chit chat (diversion).
Trolls are removed on the better sites. I remove trolls from places I moderate/run.
There is a whole culture of trolls, with websites containing instructions on how to excel, it is an integral part of internet culture, it can be eradicated.

Blue Velvet
Dec 29, 2011, 12:25 PM
Two people I genuinely respect:


The Design and Graphics forum used to be a very helpful place full of quality people, but like many of the other forums on this site, has gone downhill drastically in the last few years. It's the main reason I hardly post on MR anymore.


I've pretty much stopped posting here in the last year or two. Really it's because there used to be a lot of reasoned discussion and debate in any given topic, with a large group of seasoned Apple users setting a civil tone and giving meaningful takes on the news of the day.

These days it's like reading youtube comments. Frankly anybody using the term 'fanboy' doesn't seem to have the mental capacity to articulate their own thoughts, or entertain the thoughts of others.


Couldn't put it better myself.

carlgo
Dec 29, 2011, 07:22 PM
I think Apple has entered another stage, a more secure and respected one. No longer is there the need to support every move or every bit of the philosophy.

We fans can now be critical, hoping our views are taken into account (likely not!).

This can be mistaken by the True Believers as trolling, but it isn't. It is tough love.

BreakGuy
Dec 29, 2011, 07:24 PM
I've seen many a good forum ruined and destroyed by trolls, people who choose to insult without adding anything useful or seek to prolong useless chit chat (diversion).
Trolls are removed on the better sites. I remove trolls from places I moderate/run.
There is a whole culture of trolls, with websites containing instructions on how to excel, it is an integral part of internet culture, it can be eradicated.Perhaps if the members here knew what to look for when a troll comes along (eg. how to identify one) and the moderators/admins took a no-tolerance approach to trolls then they wouldn't bother coming to MR to inflict their 'damage'.

Arelunde
Dec 31, 2011, 11:51 AM
OK. Here's a legit question that would be a natural troll target...

How does one report an unacceptable post/poster ?? On some forums, there's a button specifically to report an abuse. On this forum, are the up/down arrows used for reporting? If not, what is the process? :confused:

Weaselboy
Dec 31, 2011, 12:17 PM
How does one report an unacceptable post/poster ?? On some forums, there's a button specifically to report an abuse.

https://img.skitch.com/20111231-187h2sby11f866k3nwcec7ra57.jpg

Click the warning triangle.

Arelunde
Dec 31, 2011, 07:50 PM
Ahhhh!! Got it and thank you. I often wondered what that was for.

tobefirst
Jan 3, 2012, 02:47 PM
Two people I genuinely respect:

...

Couldn't put it better myself.
I wanted to PM you to say thank you, but you have PMs disabled. So thanks, Blue Velvet, for the compliment. Know that the feeling is mutual. Cheers.

seamuskrat
Jan 4, 2012, 09:04 AM
Arn,

Not sure if MR has the resoruces to go more like a Facebook style rating and popular feed listing. I see some hints in the blog articles where popular highlighted posts are featured.

I don't think there is a one size fits all solution. Some will want unrestricted, unfiltered raw posts, others want the trolls and BS segregated. Otehrs will hate to be gagged or booted. I do nto envy your problem.

I was a long ago Forum leader on AOL and we had similar issues and while the AOL way was far from perfect, did keep the place relativly tame and civil.

They had paid and volunteer moderators who could giv warnings, issue short term and long term bans as well as remove posts that wer flagged. It required labor, but in my case was well worth it to create a well liked, and visited forum that also had the ability to create flame wars by mere opinions being stated.

Good luck.

There's definitely been a bit more contentious vibe to the major comment threads these days, and I'm not sure the best way to combat it.

It's unfortunately a side effect of popularity.

I know some people object to the voting buttons, and like I said when we started it was a bit of an experiment, to get more data. I think we could go further with it, but there are those that seem opposed to it.

arn

Ashka
Jan 7, 2012, 07:20 PM
Problem Members:

believe the site is called droidrumors.

are some teenagers who believe that they invented computers as well as sex.

believe all other members are under 45 and male.

forget that some have worked on computers for 40 or more years.

have been totally spoilt by their parents.


moderating an internet site is a thankless task..... so Thank you Mods.

balamw
Jan 7, 2012, 07:30 PM
They had paid and volunteer moderators who could giv warnings, issue short term and long term bans as well as remove posts that wer flagged.


Sounds exactly like what we do here at MR. It's really quite an operation "behind the scenes".

Ultimately though the forums are large and we can't be everywhere, we do need regular users to flag and report posts that are inappropriate as mentioned above.

B

Hastings101
Jan 8, 2012, 11:28 AM
Banning people for using the word fanboy? That idea is silly. Even when used in an offensive context it's really not a very offensive word:

"I love chocolate ice cream!!!"

"Whoa, you must be a fanboy*. Also, vanilla ice cream is better, you jerk**."
*not offensive **this is the offensive part

The word isn't really an insult. So why, when it comes to certain tech companies instead of ice cream, is it considered one? It's what comes before or after the use of fanboy that will hurt people's feelings and lead to flame wars/troll happiness, and I think MacRumor's moderators already do a good job at handling that.

Hellhammer
Jan 8, 2012, 11:51 AM
Banning people for using the word fanboy? That idea is silly. Even when used in an offensive context it's really not a very offensive word:

"I love chocolate ice cream!!!"

"Whoa, you must be a fanboy*. Also, vanilla ice cream is better, you jerk**."
*not offensive **this is the offensive part

The word isn't really an insult. So why, when it comes to certain tech companies instead of ice cream, is it considered one? It's what comes before or after the use of fanboy that will hurt people's feelings and lead to flame wars/troll happiness, and I think MacRumor's moderators already do a good job at handling that.

That's the reason. I think there was a time when words "troll" and "fanboy" were allowed but since they almost always caused more insults and name-calling, the best choice was to ban these words as well. (Possibly) less work for us :p Either way, a mature person should not have to rely on words that are even remotely insulting. You can express your view on a more polite way.

JoeG4
Jan 8, 2012, 05:48 PM
Problem Members:
believe the site is called droidrumors.


Problem members:
Hold a positive opinion about non-Apple products and are often insulted on the forums for being an Apple hater, as seen in this thread. (Holding a positive opinion about non-Apple products does not mean you can't also have a positive opinion about Apple products!)

Perhaps there need to be an "other devices" category for people to ask questions/make statements about their non-Apple hardware that happens to compete with Apple hardware they chose not to buy for some reason or another. I think there are probably more iPhone users that have a great distaste for Macs than there are Mac users that have a great distaste for iPhones (and I say this because there are far more iPhone users out there!)

Dunno, I have positive opinions about most things, soooo.. I feel like a jerk bumping this thread all the time.

wpotere
Jan 8, 2012, 05:52 PM
Problem members:
Hold a positive opinion about non-Apple products and are often insulted on the forums for being an Apple hater, as seen in this thread.

(Holding a positive opinion about non-Apple products does not mean you can't also have a positive opinion about Apple products!)

Kind of agree here. I like all things computer based, not just Apple, but if you open your mouth even a little you get jumped like you committed the ultimate sin.

Apple isn't the end all of computers. They are nice, but there are also other very nice products out there.

WillEH
Jan 11, 2012, 11:09 AM
Popularity brings crap, deal with it.

LorenK
Jan 11, 2012, 11:58 AM
As someone who understands computers enough to get by and uses Macs for that reason, I can understand the frustration of more experienced users who are attempting to educate the rest of us and some blunderer who does not recognize his own limitations asserts something erroneous or is not appropriately respectful of others can be an irritant. I am hopeful that the tools already built into the site will allow those persons to be dealt with appropriately.

What I am concerned about is that those more experienced users will get exasperated and leave, which will only increase the percentage of blunderers on the site. What I would ask is that the more experienced users recognize that the blunderers likely don't see themselves as they are and chalk it up to that ignorance and accept that there are those people in the world and as much as we might want to avoid them, it can be difficult at times.

For myself, I am appreciative of the information and help that I've received on this site and hope that the goals of educating Apple users can be maintained for years to come.

Consultant
Jan 12, 2012, 03:34 PM
Two people I genuinely respect:

...

Couldn't put it better myself.

Totally agree. People who come here to help (instead come to promote their non-Apple devices) are fewer and fewer now.

roadbloc
Jan 12, 2012, 04:30 PM
Totally agree. People who come here to help (instead come to promote their non-Apple devices) are fewer and fewer now.

I am still failing to see the flooding of people who promote non-apple devices here. Care to point some out so I can see what you are on about.

SandboxGeneral
Jan 12, 2012, 04:32 PM
I am still failing to see the flooding of people who promote non-apple devices here. Care to point some out so I can see what you are on about.

I have to agree. I still see plenty of different people here, aiding others in need. I don't see a whole lot of non-Apple promotions, flaming or hating in the majority of the forums.

Mr. McMac
Jan 12, 2012, 04:35 PM
I own and love many Apple products, I also own and love many non-Apple products. Does that make me (in your mind) an Apple hater??

wpotere
Jan 12, 2012, 04:39 PM
I own and love many Apple products, I also own and love many non-Apple products. Does that make me (in your mind) an Apple hater??

Only if you show your love for the non-Apple products here. ;)

mrsir2009
Jan 30, 2012, 04:14 PM
Yeah, especially in the iPhone section.

----------

Only if you show your love for the non-Apple products here. ;)

IMO you can show your love for non-Apple products without being offensive/rude/obnoxious/insulting etc... For example, it isn't acceptable to start a thread going on about why you purchased a SGS2 over the iPhone 4S. But respectfully sharing your opinion without making a big fuss is acceptable IMO.

wpotere
Jan 30, 2012, 06:19 PM
Yeah, especially in the iPhone section.

----------



IMO you can show your love for non-Apple products without being offensive/rude/obnoxious/insulting etc... For example, it isn't acceptable to start a thread going on about why you purchased a SGS2 over the iPhone 4S. But respectfully sharing your opinion without making a big fuss is acceptable IMO.

If only that were true. I have seen many respectably started non-Apple threads get destroyed simply because they shared. Too many juveniles on this forum for it to ever be "respectful".

Go ahead and down vote me now... :rolleyes:

Dane D.
Jan 30, 2012, 08:27 PM
Interesting topic, my thought is, as more people buy Apple products and discover it is not Windows or Andriod they seem to need a place to vent their dislikes about Apple and it ways of doing things. Lets face it, many first time Apple users, are clueless about how things are accomplished using the Mac OS. So they vent here, fine let them vent, it is only natural to get mad when something is new and foreign to an individual. You can only help them so much, if they take your advice great, if not, than they are closed-minded, a lost cause.

I work with a die-hard Windows/Andriod user who has to use a MacPro. After several months, he finally admitted the MacPro is the best computer he as ever used. It has run now for over year non-stop with the exception of software updates requiring a restart.

Some people are beyond help, so be it. They will never understand the simplicity of the OS, they are too involved with the minutia of Windows/Andriod. And can't be helped, they are blinded by Windows/Andriod ways.

srf4real
Jan 30, 2012, 08:41 PM
There have been paid "bashers" in internet stock forums for years. I suppose it was only time before the same strategy would be employed between corporations vying for popularity and $billion$ in business..;)

LorenK
Jan 30, 2012, 11:36 PM
I work with a die-hard Windows/Andriod user who has to use a MacPro. After several months, he finally admitted the MacPro is the best computer he as ever used. It has run now for over year non-stop with the exception of software updates requiring a restart.


I have a 3,1 that I basically haven't turned off since I got except to restart and add hardware. These suckers are the Clydesdales of computers.:D

JoeG4
Jan 30, 2012, 11:37 PM
That's exactly what I think about my G5 lol :D And my G4 too! Those machines are awesome!

EssentialParado
Jan 31, 2012, 12:22 AM
To throw my worthless opinion in, I think posts could be collapsed and hidden (or gradually made transparent) in relation to the number of negative votes it receives. A reader should be able to optionally re-expand these hidden posts however.

A system like that would hopefully go a little way toward fixing the poor posting habits here, and may hopefully make other users more responsible with their voting of posts also.

A longer-term approach could also be to have moderators review users who reach a particular total number of negative votes, say -500, and look at the content of their last twenty or so posts and decide whether they need a temporary ban from posting, rising to a permanent ban if necessary.

Tom in London
Jan 31, 2012, 06:45 AM
Well, I've got to the end and I still can't understand what this thread is actually about.

wpotere
Jan 31, 2012, 07:11 AM
Well, I've got to the end and I still can't understand what this thread is actually about.

Have you ever seen Seinfeld? ;) This is the thread about nothing.

yg17
Jan 31, 2012, 07:15 AM
To throw my worthless opinion in, I think posts could be collapsed and hidden (or gradually made transparent) in relation to the number of negative votes it receives. A reader should be able to optionally re-expand these hidden posts however.

A system like that would hopefully go a little way toward fixing the poor posting habits here, and may hopefully make other users more responsible with their voting of posts also.

A longer-term approach could also be to have moderators review users who reach a particular total number of negative votes, say -500, and look at the content of their last twenty or so posts and decide whether they need a temporary ban from posting, rising to a permanent ban if necessary.

That's a terrible idea and here's why:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1315924

A completely harmless thread and harmless posts. Yet look at the post ratings. Apparently some people have a problem with a member letting her friends here know that she's in the ER but is recovering and doing better :rolleyes:

WillEH
Jan 31, 2012, 09:16 AM
Apple offered me money to bash Microsoft...

ericrwalker
Jan 31, 2012, 09:49 AM
That's a terrible idea and here's why:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1315924

A completely harmless thread and harmless posts. Yet look at the post ratings. Apparently some people have a problem with a member letting her friends here know that she's in the ER but is recovering and doing better :rolleyes:

WTF? I missed that thread, been busy the last couple of days. Every post was down voted (multiple times) for no reason what so ever?

Rampant.A.I.
Jan 31, 2012, 10:01 AM
Kind of agree here. I like all things computer based, not just Apple, but if you open your mouth even a little you get jumped like you committed the ultimate sin.

Apple isn't the end all of computers. They are nice, but there are also other very nice products out there.

Agreed. My last 4 computers have been top-end Apple portables, but I'd never claim they're the be-all, end-all computer. There are cool designs out there, superior hardware (in terms of speed, graphics, etc), but I continue using what I do because it works for me.

And you're right: people like to think it works for me = obviously this is the best that ever was, and if you disagree with me you're insulting my personal life choices and intimating that you've come to "know" my mother in the biblical sense.

Dr McKay
Jan 31, 2012, 10:42 AM
Arn's not talking about site requirements. He's talking about the likelihood of someone finding common ground with forum members. If you're pro-Windows, you're more likely to find those who share your views in a Windows forum, and you're more likely to find those with opposing views in a pro-Mac forum. The reverse is also true. It's just common sense.

Some of the main reasons I come on here, is because of my iPhone and iPad, also Im a fan of technology in general, even though I use Windows, I watch all of Apples keynotes and read up on things about Apples releases, even OS X. I also check Windows Rumor sites, gaming sites, even Linux once in a while. However, if I see a user spreading rubbish about rival products or companies, I shall correct them. It's Mac Rumors, not the Cult of Apple. One of the reasons I keep coming back here is the unbiased, informative articles.

Hellhammer
Jan 31, 2012, 10:51 AM
Interesting topic, my thought is, as more people buy Apple products and discover it is not Windows or Andriod they seem to need a place to vent their dislikes about Apple and it ways of doing things. Lets face it, many first time Apple users, are clueless about how things are accomplished using the Mac OS. So they vent here, fine let them vent, it is only natural to get mad when something is new and foreign to an individual. You can only help them so much, if they take your advice great, if not, than they are closed-minded, a lost cause.

I work with a die-hard Windows/Andriod user who has to use a MacPro. After several months, he finally admitted the MacPro is the best computer he as ever used. It has run now for over year non-stop with the exception of software updates requiring a restart.

Some people are beyond help, so be it. They will never understand the simplicity of the OS, they are too involved with the minutia of Windows/Andriod. And can't be helped, they are blinded by Windows/Andriod ways.

It also works the other way around. Some users are very pro-Apple and can't really see the other side of the table. Not everyone likes every single Apple device that is out there.

To throw my worthless opinion in, I think posts could be collapsed and hidden (or gradually made transparent) in relation to the number of negative votes it receives. A reader should be able to optionally re-expand these hidden posts however.

A system like that would hopefully go a little way toward fixing the poor posting habits here, and may hopefully make other users more responsible with their voting of posts also.

A longer-term approach could also be to have moderators review users who reach a particular total number of negative votes, say -500, and look at the content of their last twenty or so posts and decide whether they need a temporary ban from posting, rising to a permanent ban if necessary.

We have post reports that take care of rule violations, the voting system is completely separate. The voting system is mainly used to agree or disagree with one's post. A post with many negative votes does not mean it is against the rules, though, many people simply disagree with its content. Deleting/hiding posts based on the votes would be censorship, and I don't think anyone in our mod team (or members) would support it.

ChazUK
Jan 31, 2012, 11:05 AM
That's a terrible idea and here's why:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1315924

A completely harmless thread and harmless posts. Yet look at the post ratings. Apparently some people have a problem with a member letting her friends here know that she's in the ER but is recovering and doing better :rolleyes:

Now, that is a prime example of the voting system not working.

Very juvenile.

yg17
Jan 31, 2012, 11:09 AM
Now, that is a prime example of the voting system not working.

Very juvenile.

Exactly. As long as people are acting like children, the voting system should never be used to aid moderation.

blueroom
Jan 31, 2012, 11:14 AM
Every forum gets em. Canon vs Nikon vs Sony, Overunity vs common sense.

motoleo
Jan 31, 2012, 11:14 AM
The title of this thread sounds like a troll post to me.

Rampant.A.I.
Jan 31, 2012, 11:20 AM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4s: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

I own and love many Apple products, I also own and love many non-Apple products. Does that make me (in your mind) an Apple hater??

I've seen variations of this reply over and over ITT, and I don't think this is what the OP is saying.

It's not always black and white. You don't have to be a die-hard fan chanting "death to the infidels" if you choose one platform over the other, and a lot of people here cross the line between expressing their preference and insulting the preferences of others.

Also, what's up with labeling someone who wants to talk about their apple products on an apple forum a fanatic?

EssentialParado
Jan 31, 2012, 11:23 PM
We have post reports that take care of rule violations, the voting system is completely separate. The voting system is mainly used to agree or disagree with one's post. A post with many negative votes does not mean it is against the rules, though, many people simply disagree with its content. Deleting/hiding posts based on the votes would be censorship, and I don't think anyone in our mod team (or members) would support it.
The system I'm proposing is not intended for rule violations — the post report buttons should remain for reporting flagrant abuse. Nor would the system be censorship as nothing would be deleted or removed. The idea is that, in those cases when a post reaches below a certain threshold, it will receive less prominence compared to the other posts. Any reader would still be able to read that post if they choose but the negativity it's received is made more visually clear. It's applying the same system MR already uses for bumping high-voted posts to the front page but the other way around. I've seen this system on other forums / comment systems (one example is Joystiq.com) and it works very well in my experience. People stop responding to the trolls and go on with the discussion, rather than arguing. The threshold is low enough that you would really need to get a large amount of negative votes for your post to be affected.

MacNut
Jan 31, 2012, 11:28 PM
The system I'm proposing is not intended for rule violations — the post report buttons should remain for reporting flagrant abuse. Nor would the system be censorship as nothing would be deleted or removed. The idea is that, in those cases when a post reaches below a certain threshold, it will receive less prominence compared to the other posts. Any reader would still be able to read that post if they choose but the negativity it's received is made more visually clear. I've seen this system on other forums / comment systems (one example is Joystiq.com) and it works very well in my experience. The threshold is low enough that you would really need to get a lot of negative votes for your post to be affected.People will down vote something unpopular not because it is wrong. Just get rid of the voting system all together.

trip1ex
Feb 1, 2012, 11:16 AM
The bigger deal is ...

There are just more mindless folks on the site. And the site has increased its mindless articles as well.

The rumor mill has has also become passé

It was fun when the occasional substantial rumor was posted. But now there 3000 articles posted about the smallest most uninteresting information while at the same time we are all more aware of Apple product cycles and the cycles haven't sped up any.

We know the iPad 3 is coming and will be better and faster.

Following the rumors just isn't as fun as before. Maybe it is just me. But the novelty has worn out.

So I now rarely comment or read comments on here. I don't read the vast majority of articles. I really am only checking MR nowadays to see if Apple released a new product or a major patch. This is the first I commented in months.

Digital Skunk
Feb 15, 2012, 04:01 PM
A person who posts about how much Motorcycles suck might be seen as a troll in a Motorcycle forum, whereas it would be hard for a someone who loves Motorcycles to be seen as a troll in the same forum.

arn

I think the problem really rests with this statement. Sure, trolls will go to a motorcycle forum and bash cycles until they get attention.

But the issue with MR is more like a cycle fan talking about how he doesn't feel a Harley meets his/her needs and wants an Honda; then said Honda rider gets trashed by Harley riders.

Or more to the point, how a user can have a validated opinion about a product but still come under fire from both the users and at times the mods because it doesn't fit with their own perspectives.

Unfortunately trolling isn't as simple as some may want it to be. A troll can and has many times on MRs, shown itself to be anyone looking for an argument. Even if it's on a topic that the thread talks about.

For example, the optical disc drive or Blu-ray conundrum brings forth FUD from both sides, and no real educated debate.

The iPhone / Android bag of hurt will always be the same, but again, you have users that say good things about Android, and users that bash/flame/curse out/etc. those users because of their opinions.

To the OP, it's more about ignorant users more so than "Apple Haters"