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SRLMJ23
Feb 16, 2012, 08:35 AM
To me it looks pretty nice, and it seems slimmed down so all the people complaining that Lion is too bloated, maybe Mountain Lion will be the answer.



starter15
Feb 16, 2012, 09:00 AM
where can we find that new desktop wallpaper? :D

shenfrey
Feb 16, 2012, 09:06 AM
To me it looks pretty nice, and it seems slimmed down so all the people complaining that Lion is too bloated, maybe Mountain Lion will be the answer.

If anything its adding more bloat.

Krazy Bill
Feb 16, 2012, 09:16 AM
Mountain Lion is the new "Social" OS. All the reviews thus far have only highlighted the iOS features. I'm waiting to see if:

1.) Mission control is still "missing" control.
2.) Versions can be turned off.

I could live with all the extraneous iPad crap as long as I can turn it off as well.

Partron22
Feb 16, 2012, 09:17 AM
Why are they pushing out a new one before quashing the bugs in the old one?
Is it that the design philosophy behind Lion was found to be flawed, and they started over on a better base, or are they just skipping forward to wallpaper over Lion's problems? Option two seems more likely from what I've read so far.

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 16, 2012, 09:55 AM
To me it looks pretty nice, and it seems slimmed down so all the people complaining that Lion is too bloated, maybe Mountain Lion will be the answer.

How would you say it is slimmed down? Honest question, not disagreeing.

What they really need to slim down is iTunes. Doesn't seem like that has been changed a whole heck of a lot. Divide it into multiple apps or something.

fisherking
Feb 16, 2012, 10:41 AM
it's great in a sense; iOS and OS X are on a collision course, and at some point, it will all be one system.

still... as a (freelance) mac tech for over a decade...most people (in my experience) don't care about the OS. they want to go to Facebook, check email.
surf the web. shop. watch a movie, listen to music. work on their resumes.

my clients in lion don't use mission control, launchpad.

so my feeling is...the os should be fast, light. stable. so we can do the things we want (web, email, work) and NOT be distracted by eye candy and gimmicks.

end rant.

GekkePrutser
Feb 16, 2012, 11:07 AM
No support for my white MacBook 2007 :'(

However, it has had a good life :) And Mountain Lion doesn't offer any new stuff that I'm really interested in. So it'll be ok to stick with Lion anyway.

Edit: Really, I've looked into it more and I'm underwhelmed.. Notes and Reminders are listed as one of the 8 major features... And twitter... seriously???

iCloud is present in Lion as well. Only thing is the notification center, that'll be a good (and better) replacement for Growl I think.

InuNacho
Feb 16, 2012, 11:08 AM
Get the current best MBP, stick Snow Leopard on it and ride that train for as long as possible, wait for 10.9 and if it's still the same garbage as 10.7/8 see what other opportunities are out there.

Maybe Windows and Avid will treat me better then Lion/variants and FCPX.

applefan289
Feb 16, 2012, 11:13 AM
Does anyone know if you can keep the "regular" view in Mail in Mountain Lion? I really don't like the iPad-style way of Mail, I prefer to use the classic view.

Krazy Bill
Feb 16, 2012, 11:18 AM
wait for 10.9 and if it's still the same garbage as 10.7/8 see what other opportunities are out there.I think what you see in 10.8 is pretty much all the evidence you need to realize that 10.9 will only be more of the same. :) (And 11.0 and 11.1... etc.)

Maybe Windows and Avid will treat me better then Lion/variants and FCPX.

Yep. I live in corporate America and sadly that's a PC world. I've got maybe another year in OSX and then I'll see how well the PC laptop makers have done in copying Apple build standards. (They haven't done it yet. :( )

Pentad
Feb 16, 2012, 11:23 AM
Personally, there is nothing mentioned so far that interests me but we'll see what happens as the year moves along.

I still find many bugs in Lion that I hope Apple will fix before they move to ML.

I'm still interested in Windows 8 so I think this year will be great for consumers look at the tech landscape.

-P

starter15
Feb 16, 2012, 11:26 AM
where can we find that new desktop wallpaper? :D

in case anyone wanted it.

http://thumbnails56.imagebam.com/17515/9e0f4d175143185.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/9e0f4d175143185)

cambookpro
Feb 16, 2012, 11:31 AM
Starter, you may want to use the [TIMG] tags rather than [IMG] tags on large images as they can stretch the page.

Damers
Feb 16, 2012, 11:43 AM
Mountain Lion is the new "Social" OS. All the reviews thus far have only highlighted the iOS features. I'm waiting to see if:

1.) Mission control is still "missing" control.
2.) Versions can be turned off.

I could live with all the extraneous iPad crap as long as I can turn it off as well.

I'd be interested in this as well.

secretanchitman
Feb 16, 2012, 11:48 AM
I'd be interested in this as well.

same here. mission control is literally the only reason i havent upgraded to lion, and now it looks like ill just be skipping straight to mountain lion, only if they changed mission control.

Krazy Bill
Feb 16, 2012, 12:16 PM
I am simply amazed at all the crap the reviewers are bogging down on. The Note pad and reminder apps are now separate. :D

Airplay mirroring looks promising though. No more HDMI/Audio cables for my 42" Visio. (With an Apple TV purchase of course for the low... low price of... :))

I'm sure there are tons of things in ML when it's time to have fun. Unfortuanately, a lot of the things I need to do on my machine aren't chatting, gaming, tweeting and browsing. :(

onthecouchagain
Feb 16, 2012, 12:32 PM
Will there be a price to upgrade to ML?

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 16, 2012, 01:03 PM
it's great in a sense; iOS and OS X are on a collision course, and at some point, it will all be one system.

still... as a (freelance) mac tech for over a decade...most people (in my experience) don't care about the OS. they want to go to Facebook, check email.
surf the web. shop. watch a movie, listen to music. work on their resumes.

my clients in lion don't use mission control, launchpad.

so my feeling is...the os should be fast, light. stable. so we can do the things we want (web, email, work) and NOT be distracted by eye candy and gimmicks.

end rant.

soooo....... Chrome OS? That's what I'm hearing.

No support for my white MacBook 2007 :'(


Awww... Where does it list support? I have a late 2007 Macbook. I was planning to upgrade this summertime with the new line of MBA anyway, so I guess it was meant to be...

Will there be a price to upgrade to ML?

No pricing details, but probably. Although realistically I could see them being free similar to iOS... But most likely the price will be somewhere in the $10-$29 range.

jameslmoser
Feb 16, 2012, 01:16 PM
Someone in charge at Apple is confused at what an OS is... these are all things that were already there and these are all Apps... doesn't have much to do with the actual Operating System... it seems like Apple thinks "Themes" are the new OS upgrade.

Edit: I take that back... GateKeeper seems like an OS change, but I think the only reason they bothered is because its one step closer to forcing developers to use the Mac App Store so Apple can make more money off of them.

Zwhaler
Feb 16, 2012, 01:33 PM
I'm not really impressed with the new OS X, sure it's an improvement over Lion, but I didn't really view Lion as an improvement in the first place... I know that the majority of users will like it but I'm just waiting for more performance oriented upgrades, like what Snow Leopard did to Leopard. When they do that again I'll buy it.

kirky29
Feb 16, 2012, 01:59 PM
I'm liking some of the features, I hope notifications will be just as good as Growl, love the actual notification sidebar & twitter integration.
Messages look awesome and needed, again AirPlay's so very welcome & needed.

Noticed a few little things you can do, like searching within Launchpad, just open it and type, it then filters the apps.

In the Finder, you can move Devices in the sidebar back up to the top, one of the biggest complains I (and a lot of other people) had.

I don't see any problems with a quicker refresh cycle, I imagine they're just gonna charge a small amount, maybe less than 20 dollars? 9.99? Just to cover the administration cost... ;)

adamtj11
Feb 16, 2012, 01:59 PM
It's very good and surprisingly stable, but isn't quite ready for primetime use yet, not that it is meant to be. TBH stick with Lion and if you want to have a play install it on a small partition to try it out. Things like Parallels weren't working for me or was the Airplay function, but no crashes and I like the new Safari a lot! Will defo be having more fun with it while I wait for the real release this summer.

maflynn
Feb 16, 2012, 02:18 PM
I'm on lion and I'm fairly happy with it, though I'm not sure what to make ML at this point. Seems like they haven't even addressed the bugs in Lion and we're getting a new OS.

Still its too early to really formulate an opinion given that its barely out to developers never mind users.

secretanchitman
Feb 16, 2012, 02:32 PM
I'm liking some of the features, I hope notifications will be just as good as Growl, love the actual notification sidebar & twitter integration.
Messages look awesome and needed, again AirPlay's so very welcome & needed.

Noticed a few little things you can do, like searching within Launchpad, just open it and type, it then filters the apps.

In the Finder, you can move Devices in the sidebar back up to the top, one of the biggest complains I (and a lot of other people) had.

I don't see any problems with a quicker refresh cycle, I imagine they're just gonna charge a small amount, maybe less than 20 dollars? 9.99? Just to cover the administration cost... ;)

thanks for the updates! glad to see that we can move devices back to the top now!

do you have any findings on mission control? i really hope they tweaked it! :)

wassal43
Feb 16, 2012, 02:53 PM
stil missing IBOOKS

ixodes
Feb 16, 2012, 03:03 PM
It's far too early for me to have a solid opinion, with so little information. But the fact that they are doing this, is a good indication that they too, are unhappy with Lion.

Obviously they must believe the better solution is a major revision, instead of minor upgrades. An attitude like this encourages me to believe they are doing the right thing.

web500sjc
Feb 16, 2012, 03:16 PM
I would like for my iPad to run OSX, not for my MBP to run iOS!

maril1111
Feb 16, 2012, 03:18 PM
Looks promising, however i need to get my hands on it and test it for longer periods of time in order to get a solid opinion on it.

klaxamazoo
Feb 16, 2012, 03:22 PM
same here. mission control is literally the only reason i havent upgraded to lion, and now it looks like ill just be skipping straight to mountain lion, only if they changed mission control.


Yes. I hope that fix Mission Control and add a "Don't Save" menu and keyboard shortcut to Versions.

Gatekeeper looks like a good compromise between security and flexibility. Hopefully things don't become horribly locked down 10-20 years from now.

lotones
Feb 16, 2012, 03:29 PM
stil missing IBOOKS

Yep, I REALLY want iBooks on my mac too. And the other obvious missing feature in the iOS-isfication of OS X is Siri. That with a few well produced commercials would be a huge inspiration for average people who use PCs but aren't geeks to switch.

rorschach
Feb 16, 2012, 03:46 PM
Yes. I hope that fix Mission Control and add a "Don't Save" menu and keyboard shortcut to Versions.

Gatekeeper looks like a good compromise between security and flexibility. Hopefully things don't become horribly locked down 10-20 years from now.

"Don't Save" shortcut = Cmd-Delete.

Brammy
Feb 16, 2012, 03:47 PM
Do the existing version of Pages work with the new Docs in the Cloud, or will we be seeing a summer update for iWork as well?

bhillinger
Feb 16, 2012, 04:00 PM
Get the current best MBP, stick Snow Leopard on it and ride that train for as long as possible, ...

The problem is that you can't install SL on the late 2011 MBP (or is it just me)

ADMProducer
Feb 16, 2012, 04:06 PM
"Don't Save" shortcut = Cmd-Delete.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4061/4669812732_5407c2534c_z.jpg

rumors-reader
Feb 16, 2012, 04:12 PM
I'm on lion and I'm fairly happy with it, though I'm not sure what to make ML at this point. Seems like they haven't even addressed the bugs in Lion and we're getting a new OS.

Still its too early to really formulate an opinion given that its barely out to developers never mind users.

Apple appears to have adopted a 2 cycle approach to the OS updates.

Every 2 years, a major release (Leopard & Lion), in between, a minor update which optimizes and addresses many customer concerns. In my opinion, Snow Leopard was a great update.

Couple this with the fact that the updates are running at a price of $29....you can't really complain, especially since Lion could be bought for $29 and installed on all your Macs. Find a Windows upgrade for that price.

old-school
Feb 16, 2012, 04:14 PM
same here. mission control is literally the only reason i havent upgraded to lion, and now it looks like ill just be skipping straight to mountain lion, only if they changed mission control.

What is it you don't like about mission control? Personally I really like it - grouping windows to their apps and making it clearer what is what is a big improvement for me over expose. Am I missing something?

dyn
Feb 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
It is exactly that grouping per app that some people strongly dislike. Apple would be able to resolve it very easily: checkbox if you want to group per app or not.

Jagardn
Feb 16, 2012, 04:39 PM
It's far too early for me to have a solid opinion, with so little information. But the fact that they are doing this, is a good indication that they too, are unhappy with Lion.

What changes are they making from Lion to ML making you thing they are unhappy with Lion? They are just adding more iOS functionality.

HishamAkhtar
Feb 16, 2012, 04:45 PM
Get the current best MBP, stick Snow Leopard on it and ride that train for as long as possible, wait for 10.9 and if it's still the same garbage as 10.7/8 see what other opportunities are out there.

Maybe Windows and Avid will treat me better then Lion/variants and FCPX.

Do you know any way I can downgrade my OS X Lion down to Snow Leopard without deleting everything on my MacBook?

----------

Apple appears to have adopted a 2 cycle approach to the OS updates.

Every 2 years, a major release (Leopard & Lion), in between, a minor update which optimizes and addresses many customer concerns. In my opinion, Snow Leopard was a great update.

Couple this with the fact that the updates are running at a price of $29....you can't really complain, especially since Lion could be bought for $29 and installed on all your Macs. Find a Windows upgrade for that price.

Windows is a software company so you can't blame them for charging extra for their software.

ixodes
Feb 16, 2012, 04:51 PM
What changes are they making from Lion to ML making you thing they are unhappy with Lion? They are just adding more iOS functionality.
As a very long time (since System 7) Mac user, it's the mere fact they are migrating away from Lion so soon, and announcing Mountain Lion, that bodes well for Apple.

nutmac
Feb 16, 2012, 04:51 PM
Some random observations.

Only apps purchased from Mac App Store can push to notification center and use Documents in the Cloud.
Search on Launchpad.
AirPlay mirroring. Your TV (ideally upcoming Apple branded one) will now become your wireless monitor, at least for supported apps like Safari. Hulu on TV.

N10248
Feb 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
Can someone using ML confirm if...

- The Shutdown dialog "reopen windows next time" tick box is gone or at least can be defaulted to unticked

- Any old gestures back like the 4 fingers up on trackpad to show desktop (not the new spread fingers out one)

- options for old style expose

- has "save as" come back to things like Preview.

- Sleep works properly if "Internet connection sharing" is left on in sharing preferences

These are the main things that have been keeping me away from Lion and would make me avoid this one too.

ixodes
Feb 16, 2012, 05:17 PM
A thought that just came to mind...

I am absolutely thrilled that I have an excellent 15" mid 2010 fully optioned MBP running 10.6.8 flawlessly.

The fact I've had ZERO problems, no down time, and ultra fast performance from the combo of 8GB and a 512GB 830 series Samsung SSD, makes this one laptop I am very grateful to have.

Don't get me wrong, I really hope for the sake of all of us long time Apple enthusiasts that the latest announcement brings great things.

Yet that said, in the event it doesn't... there's nothing like being totally happy with the computer you have now.

Thanks Apple :D

Kiriga
Feb 16, 2012, 05:25 PM
The announcement of ML sounds to me as if Apple is silently admitting how crappy Lion is, so instead of wasting time to improve it, they decided to start again from scratch. Personally after a while with Lion, I downgraded to SL and I've been very happy for my decision. You see, if Apple changed mission control (that's an example. I'm not sure that it will be changed) back to the good old expose, that would mean that she has to do the 2 things that she hates the most. A) admit something was great, but changed it for something that many people hate and B) do something about it. So, by releasing a new version, she somehow tries to cover both cases, distracting us and making us believe that she's moving forward once again. The rest of the features announced, are just a frosting on a stale cake. I have lost faith in this company. But I still have hope.

Gomff
Feb 16, 2012, 05:57 PM
I have misgivings about it to be honest. Feels like there's even more emphasis on distracting iOS features (That I already have a phone for) and less and less stuff for the serious Pro.

There is one masterstroke that Apple could pull though that would turn me around completely and guarantee my support: Full visualization of Snow Leopard from within Mountain Lion, Including Quartz, OpenGL and Rosetta support...The whole bit.

This wouldn't be the same as backtracking on Rosetta by reintegrating it into ML.....It would merely give us Snow Leopard die hards a route to ML without killing our workflow and established software tools, whilst giving Apple the chance to bring us back into the fold.

moderngamenewb
Feb 16, 2012, 06:08 PM
How would you say it is slimmed down? Honest question, not disagreeing.

What they really need to slim down is iTunes. Doesn't seem like that has been changed a whole heck of a lot. Divide it into multiple apps or something.

Actually, I'm all for that. I mean, it's nice having everything in one winder, but I agree, lets have multiple apps, that can merge into one. We have the app store with apps, now we need an app for the store store for music, videos, apps, etc...and we can have the music player itself as a separate player, and have it go back to being what it was originally designed to be as, a jukebox player. We could have different programs. One for the store, one for music, one for videos, itunes u, etc..., and then one big one like we have now for those who just want one program, that way it's more slimmed down

klaxamazoo
Feb 16, 2012, 06:28 PM
"Don't Save" shortcut = Cmd-Delete.

That is not accurate. CMD-Delete only works when you are given the opportunity to set the name of the file, i.e. the first time you save.

It does not work for a document that has already been saved once. i.e. once you save a document, Versions takes over and there is no option to easily "Don't Save" changes.

----------

What is it you don't like about mission control? Personally I really like it - grouping windows to their apps and making it clearer what is what is a big improvement for me over expose. Am I missing something?


You are missing the fact that the Windows overlap and there is no good way to access your content if you have a lot of Windows open. i.e. I routinely have 40 - 60 windows open when I write papers and my thesis. Having Windows overlap with no good way to see them without being pulled out of Mission Control is annoying.

Not being able to see more than one space at a time also slows me down. And no, the small 1" thumbnails at the top of my screen do not help. It is faster for me to see all Windows and all Spaces at the same time, not this flick, check - flick, check - flick, check - flick, check nonsense.

And, App Expose is not a substitute for All Windows Expose. App Expose pulls you out of Mission Control, which makes it so you cannot drag windows to a new Space and is also a jarring/annoying transition.

Overall, I don't like having to play Hide-and-Seek with my content. I want just want to see what is going on.

Jagardn
Feb 16, 2012, 06:28 PM
The announcement of ML sounds to me as if Apple is silently admitting how crappy Lion is, so instead of wasting time to improve it, they decided to start again from scratch. Personally after a while with Lion, I downgraded to SL and I've been very happy for my decision. You see, if Apple changed mission control (that's an example. I'm not sure that it will be changed) back to the good old expose, that would mean that she has to do the 2 things that she hates the most. A) admit something was great, but changed it for something that many people hate and B) do something about it. So, by releasing a new version, she somehow tries to cover both cases, distracting us and making us believe that she's moving forward once again. The rest of the features announced, are just a frosting on a stale cake. I have lost faith in this company. But I still have hope.

So what crappy Lion features are they removing while admitting this failure?

Patrick J
Feb 16, 2012, 06:54 PM
iOS and OS X are NOT on a collision course.

Both Microsoft and Apple are making their desktop OSsí more ďmobileĒ, whether in functionality (Messages, Launchpad), or in User interface (Metro).

The problem is that Metro is designed thinking of finger navigation, which simply doesnít work with a mouse, while Apple is maintaining the UI of the desktop we know separate from the finger-oriented iOS.

This, in my view, is the greater approach.

Also, iOS is giving a new shot of life to itís creator, OS X, in the form of new and relevant functionality.

definitive
Feb 16, 2012, 06:59 PM
I really like the direction in which Apple is taking the OS X. It will be simpler, and at the same time more convenient.

Only thing that bothers me is that Apple wants to release a new version of the OS every year, which I can't help but think that it will make hardware obsolete much faster. Previously you could get 3-5 years out of your system, but now all that may change. I feel like we're at the point where hardware isn't as important as it was in the past when it comes to the operating system. When it comes to the os, the majority of bottlenecks come from hard drives and amount of RAM. Since most systems can have 4-8 GIGs of RAM and SATA2/3 and SSD hard drives, there shouldn't be much need to upgrade to newer systems, but Apple is dumping older graphic chipsets which you can't upgrade in their systems...

ljgww
Feb 16, 2012, 07:33 PM
The Dark Side of Apple, Volume 2

it is irrelevant what you think about the new OSx (starts deserving lowercase) - intention remains to sell you the media - if you are not profitable group, your opinion does not count.

Saturn1217
Feb 16, 2012, 07:57 PM
Well from the first time I started using Lion I was hoping that Apple would come out with a minor upgrade (ala Leopard > Snow Leopard) to try to straighten up the many poorly executed (even if good in principle) ideas they introduced in Lion.

Hopefully in ML this developer preview is just showing the crowd pleasing stuff (minor bug fixes and streamlining of the UI probably wouldn't make very good headlines). I'm releaved to see that most of the iOS stuff they are introducing seems to be avoidable (I hope) even though the thought of having Twitter integrated into ANYTHING I use makes me a little ill.

Hopefully along with the gee wiz stuff like a separate notes application (OMG!) they spend a LOT of time carefully combing through Lion and getting rid of weird UI inconsistencies and bringing back functionality that Leopard and SL had. (Save As, Quick Look where I can actually zoom in on pdfs, columns that resize properly when I'm in kind view, animations that don't take stupidly long amounts of time, the return of true gesture customizability, and a way to set DON'T reopen apps after restart to default...to name a few)

I am living with Lion currently and I'm not unhappy. (for anyone interested you can use the old SL Preview complete with Save As in Lion and this has gone a long way to smoothing my transition) But it is also glaringly clear to me that this is the worst version of OSX I have used thus far (only been around since Leopard). It required by far the most tweaking and hidden hacks to set up in a way I thought was productive but at least I got there eventually...:o

I do take hope from other comments in the thread. If Apple is coming out with 10.8 so soon it means they may also see a need for fixing Lion. Fingers crossed that OSX improves from here. Lion isn't horrible but I know they can do better!

fel10
Feb 16, 2012, 08:16 PM
in case anyone wanted it.

Image (http://www.imagebam.com/image/9e0f4d175143185)

Thanks a lot for this:D

InuNacho
Feb 16, 2012, 08:27 PM
Do you know any way I can downgrade my OS X Lion down to Snow Leopard without deleting everything on my MacBook?[COLOR="#808080"]

Try this. http://www.zdnet.com/blog/government/how-to-install-snow-leopard-on-a-brand-new-lion-based-mac/10652

I dunno about a regular old Macbook but I do recall seeing a few threads about people installing 10.6 on late 2011 MBPs by using the early 2011 recovery discs.

OLDCODGER
Feb 16, 2012, 08:32 PM
For me, Lion represented the end of OS updates. Snow Leopard is as far as I intend to go, so any HW upgrades will be other than Mac, once I can no longer hack SL to a Mac.

I have been an Apple exclusive user since 1983, but, sadly, all good things come to an end.

bbhegedus
Feb 16, 2012, 08:49 PM
Not sure if this has been said yet, but on Mountain Lion, the MacBook Air's instant-on feature feels a lot more "instant" than in Lion.

Kariya
Feb 16, 2012, 08:50 PM
First look;

-No noticeable UI changes from Lion
-Mission Control is still Mission Control at first glance. Ditto for Autosave/Version
-Fullscreen/Multi-Display support still broken
-You can reorganise Finder sidebar but still no colours to be found.
-64-bit kexts or bust
-Launchpad is searchable but still doesn't reflect Finder changes. Also one can no longer scroll between pages with arrow keys.
-In my App catalogue Office 2011 (and most apps) work as is but Macaroni (http://www.atomicbird.com/macaroni) and iStatPro (http://islayer.com/apps/istatpro/) don't (probably the kexts thing).
-Dashboard UI for choosing Widgets has changed. Now Laucnhpad-like against a grey background and sports a search option. Also no more ripple effect
-Safari is blazing. HTML5 support improved. Search/Address bar integrated. Seems to store Passwords. Tabs autoscale across. RSS seems to be currently MIA or just broken.
-Text edit now integrates with iCloud
-Support for Flickr, Twitter, Vimeo and some other asian networks.

For a Beta 1 it is fairly stable and fast. On par with 10.7.3 at least.

Overall i like it but i hope its significantly tweaked out by summer.

nostylluan
Feb 16, 2012, 09:02 PM
for personal use, i like it a lot... love how it interacts with my iphone, the only reason i have a computer is to browse/email and play video games. so for me it's a great addition.

swingerofbirch
Feb 16, 2012, 09:11 PM
Can anyone comment on the performance/nimbleness of Mountain Lion compared to Lion and Snow Leopard?

My personal experience was that Lion slowed down my mid-2010 MBP 13" significantly. I know that's a controversial experience to have had on this forum, but if anyone else had such issues and has been brave enough to test the waters with Mountain Lion, I'd be curious to hear how it fares.

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 16, 2012, 09:15 PM
For me, Lion represented the end of OS updates. Snow Leopard is as far as I intend to go, so any HW upgrades will be other than Mac, once I can no longer hack SL to a Mac.

I have been an Apple exclusive user since 1983, but, sadly, all good things come to an end.

Oh don't be so dramatic. So you'll switch to windows because of a few features u don't like? What do u hate so much? U don't think u can come to like it or at least tolerate it? What if u hate windows even more? Never buy a computer again? Just move forward and move on

Krazy Bill
Feb 16, 2012, 09:32 PM
First look;

-No noticeable UI changes from Lion

Figured as much. No surprise.

-Mission Control is still Mission Control at first glance. Ditto for Autosave/Version
Well... just crap. :(


-You can reorganise Finder sidebar but still no colours to be found.

Don't need no steenking colored icons anyway. :D

-64-bit kexts or bust

Makes sense. Again, no surprise.

-Launchpad is searchable but still doesn't reflect Finder changes. Also one can longer scroll between pages with arrow keys.
Don't care. What's launchpad anyway? :)

-Safari is blazing. HTM5 support improved. Search/Address bar integrated. This is good.

-Text edit now integrates with iCloud

Well, I suppose somebody would find this useful. Personally notepad works for me now.

Kind thanks for your report. :)

Reach9
Feb 16, 2012, 09:36 PM
Wow, Mountain Lion will be a "meh" upgrade. These features should have already been in Lion. I don't think these features are deserving of a x.1 upgrade, but I think Apple wants to quickly get to 11.0
I'm guessing that after 10.8, they'll go straight to 11.0, and the main feature will be Siri.

I wonder what OS 11 will be called? OSXI? sounds like "Oh sexy".

Regarding the name change, I think somewhere down the line.. Apple will release a product that is a Macbook Air and iPad mix. It will have a keyboard that you can possibly flip or something, making it into an iPad. And be able to flip the keyboard or something, and make it into a laptop. It will run both OS X and iOS, depending on the flip.
By that time we'll have the 24hour battery life Intel has promised too.

Now that.. will be the ultimate computing tool.
My main computing tools will then be.. iMac, iPhone and the (iPad + MacBook Air mix).

As long as Apple does not make OS X into a closed system like the iPhone, I'll take the upgrades. However, the moment Apple says that the Mac App Store will be the only place to buy apps, I won't upgrade.

InuNacho
Feb 16, 2012, 09:51 PM
For me, Lion represented the end of OS updates. Snow Leopard is as far as I intend to go, so any HW upgrades will be other than Mac, once I can no longer hack SL to a Mac.

I have been an Apple exclusive user since 1983, but, sadly, all good things come to an end.

I too have been using Macs since the old 68K B/W days and it really is sad that the Mac platform is becoming more and more of a glorified iPad. Want to make any wagers that in 10.9 they're just gonna kill off the Finder?

secretanchitman
Feb 16, 2012, 10:32 PM
What is it you don't like about mission control? Personally I really like it - grouping windows to their apps and making it clearer what is what is a big improvement for me over expose. Am I missing something?

the whole point of expose was to show you every single window. what lion (and now mountain lion) does is group each program window together.

for example, lets say i have 4-5 firefox windows open, along with itunes, mail, adium buddy list, and an adium chat window. in snow leopard, it would show each and every window and not obstruct anything. in lion, it will group the 4-5 firefox windows behind one another, and group the adium buddy list and window together. to me, this is not what expose is meant for. expose is meant to, quite honestly, expose every window, not group them together.

here are some pictures to show you what i mean:

http://www.macintouch.com/specialreports/snowleopard/graphics/expose-all.jpg - this is in snow leopard. it shows every single window, plus it shows you all of your minimized applications as well (you can see the semi transparent line near the bottom of the picture), which is extremely handy for me, as i have checked "minimize windows into application icon" in system preferences.

http://www.marekbell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/expose1.png - this is lion. while its the same principle, you can see that multiple safari windows are open, but are now hiding behind each other. unfortunately, that is not how i want expose to work.

with that, i have even submitted a request to apple asking to bring back the old expose from snow leopard into lion, and just now submitted another one for mountain lion. im really hoping they bring back the old implementation - it was perfect.

holden57
Feb 17, 2012, 01:13 AM
I'm generally not liking the direction that OS X is going lately. That being said, the only feature that really jumps out in Mountain Lion as being much more "iOS oriented" is Gatekeeper. The option to only accept applications from the app store is mystifying. It makes me suspect that Apple would like to move away from third party software...

I would like to see Mission Control no longer part of OS X, but I assume that will not happen. From my experience being able to see your windows which are open (by window, not application) is a much faster than application based switching.

Those who enjoy these changes more power to them, but it doesn't suit my workflow.

ssn637
Feb 17, 2012, 01:42 AM
First look;

-No noticeable UI changes from Lion
-Mission Control is still Mission Control at first glance. Ditto for Autosave/Version
-Fullscreen/Multi-Display support still broken
-You can reorganise Finder sidebar but still no colours to be found.
-64-bit kexts or bust
-Launchpad is searchable but still doesn't reflect Finder changes. Also one can no longer scroll between pages with arrow keys.
-In my App catalogue Office 2011 (and most apps) work as is but Macaroni (http://www.atomicbird.com/macaroni) and iStatPro (http://islayer.com/apps/istatpro/) don't (probably the kexts thing).
-Dashboard UI for choosing Widgets has changed. Now Laucnhpad-like against a grey background and sports a search option. Also no more ripple effect
-Safari is blazing. HTML5 support improved. Search/Address bar integrated. Seems to store Passwords. Tabs autoscale across. RSS seems to be currently MIA or just broken.
-Text edit now integrates with iCloud
-Support for Flickr, Twitter, Vimeo and some other asian networks.

For a Beta 1 it is fairly stable and fast. On par with 10.7.3 at least.

Overall i like it but i hope its significantly tweaked out by summer.

Parallels Desktop 7 is also a bust in 10.8; installation is successful but upon restarting and setup the virtual machine refuses to run. I've got iStatMenu working just fine as far as I can tell, but a lot of the "hacks" we've relied on for 10.7 (color sidebar icons, modifying the SArtFile.bin UI, black menu bar) fail miserably in Mountain Lion. I also tried to download the Boot Camp drivers but they weren't available on the update server. The operating system is stable enough but lacks support for some features. Reminds me of the Windows 8 developer preview, which everyone played with for a few days before going back to Windows 7.

I'm also afraid battery life will suffer as much as it does with Lion. Snow Leopard just feels right and, at least on my MacBook Pro 13" 2010 system, works like a champ.

Has anyone tried to upgrade a 10.7.3 system with selected 10.8 applications, such as Notifications or Reminders? A Lion 10.7.4 so to speak?

Blue Sun
Feb 17, 2012, 01:50 AM
with that, i have even submitted a request to apple asking to bring back the old expose from snow leopard into lion, and just now submitted another one for mountain lion. im really hoping they bring back the old implementation - it was perfect.

IMO, Expose from Snow Leopard (more so Leopard) was fantastic and near perfect for multitasking, but I don't think Apple will bring it back exactly as we remember it. I think they may tweak some aspects of Mission Control though, as it needs some serious work.

I like how MC displays the numerous desktops/spaces along the top of the screen, but it really should display each and every open window for that desktop too. Layering the same application windows over one another creates a very cluttered experience. We open MC to find a particular window right? What good does it do when MC is just as disorganised as our regular desktop?

OS 10.8 really needs to address this problem.

Also, Mountain Lion needs to take some cues from Snow Leopard from a performance perspective. SL was a huge leap from Leopard in terms of performance, ML needs to do the same to Lion.

swingerofbirch
Feb 17, 2012, 01:56 AM
I have another question. If you save directly to the iCloud, is there no way then to see the file in the Finder? If you wanted to e-mail it to someone, how would you do that? And do file saved directly to the iCloud also feature auto-save and versions?

Niklasnick
Feb 17, 2012, 02:14 AM
Can anyone comment on the performance/nimbleness of Mountain Lion compared to Lion and Snow Leopard?

My personal experience was that Lion slowed down my mid-2010 MBP 13" significantly. I know that's a controversial experience to have had on this forum, but if anyone else had such issues and has been brave enough to test the waters with Mountain Lion, I'd be curious to hear how it fares.

Though it's Developer Preview 1 (so not even a real Beta in Microsoft-speech), it's significantly faster than Lion on my Mid 2010 13" MBP (2.26Ghz/8GB RAM/128GB SSD [which is in an external USB 2.0 case, so I don't even use the full possible speed through the internal connection!]). System uses about 2-5 % of CPU (mostly at ~2.75%), which is slightly more than Lion, and Safari uses 10-30% of CPU even at only one or few pages opened. But it's incredibly fast compared to Safari on Lion.
Facebook is fully loaded in a split of a second, which took several seconds on Lion, rather "unstable" pages like Gizmodo also work much better now.
Even Safari itself starts in less than a second, which used to take several seconds. Spotlight also is much more responsive, and the overall feeling is great, though (really only) sometimes little lags (like when scrolling on big pages in safari) are noticeable.
I hope, the performance stays the same - iOS 4 was also a lot faster in Beta than iOS 3 on my iPhone 3G, but with the final version it became unusable slow.

Crayo
Feb 17, 2012, 03:03 AM
There is a certain philosophy behind the moves Apple is doing with OS X.

Sure, they are on a mission to unify iOS and OS X user interface concepts and they are adding more features, but they are also getting rid of things that have been around since early days of OS X and have since started to look out of place. This cleanup is a good thing folks.

And in general I like seeing more changes that gets the computer out of the way when I'm actually doing something with it. I want to create, think, communicate, code, edit .. whatever, but I dont want to feel that I'm *using a computer*.

Computing is supposed to enable us and make our lifes easier as an extension of human capabilities. It's not supposed to jump in our faces saying "I'm here! Notice me!". Good OS "fades away" when focusing on things you are doing *with* it. Computer, or OS for that matter, is not the king - content and people are. I think Apple gets this better than anyone in the industry.

For the people switching from Windows to OS X I usually tell that OS X is eventually going to be more "dull". And what I mean by that, is that it's going to be fireworks and excitement at the beginning but when you get to doing actual work with it, OS X (and Mac) usually kind of fades away. You get to focus on the content and the actual work more and less on the computer as a tool.

Windows on the other hand tends to interrupt user with lot of procedures that add complexity to workflow. Mostly, and sadly, people get used and routinized to this. OS X, release by release, tends to remove these annoyances.

OS X lacks many Windows concepts - not because it isn't as good or better but because those things simply are not necessary in OS X. In my experience at the beginning many switchers complain OS X being lacking because some random menu option they are used to is missing. I usually tell them that it's not just missing - it's unnecessary .. and there is more natural way of reaching the same workflow goal.

Purchasing your first Mac takes about 10 minutes at Apple store, but unlearning old routines and changing computing philosophy takes months. I know this because I've helped migrating many companies and offices to Mac from other systems. Usually they complain and even get disappointed at first but when they unlearn a lot and learn a little they see why Apple "gets it" better. After first year, all of them have stated that they are never going back and their measurable productivity has gone up.

I dont mind being called Apple fanboy or machead if being one makes me more effective at my work compared to those using other tools. ;)

I like where Apple is going with OS X Mountain Lion. :)

Skika
Feb 17, 2012, 03:57 AM
I would rather see iOS apps being renamed to iCal and Address book than reverse.

Contacts and Calendar seem to generic.

Kariya
Feb 17, 2012, 04:38 AM
Parallels Desktop 7 is also a bust in 10.8; installation is successful but upon restarting and setup the virtual machine refuses to run. I've got iStatMenu working just fine as far as I can tell

Has anyone tried to upgrade a 10.7.3 system with selected 10.8 applications, such as Notifications or Reminders? A Lion 10.7.4 so to speak?

iStat Menu is different to iStatPro i think. I doubt your second question will work. There are likely API changes that you'd need to have in place.

ADMProducer
Feb 17, 2012, 04:48 AM
I would rather see iOS apps being renamed to iCal and Address book than reverse.

Contacts and Calendar seem to generic.

Trivial argument is trivial.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/170/976/DustinMattson10-305x457.jpg

Brendando
Feb 17, 2012, 04:51 AM
Though it's Developer Preview 1 (so not even a real Beta in Microsoft-speech), it's significantly faster than Lion on my Mid 2010 13" MBP (2.26Ghz/8GB RAM/128GB SSD [which is in an external USB 2.0 case, so I don't even use the full possible speed through the internal connection!]). System uses about 2-5 % of CPU (mostly at ~2.75%), which is slightly more than Lion, and Safari uses 10-30% of CPU even at only one or few pages opened. But it's incredibly fast compared to Safari on Lion.
Facebook is fully loaded in a split of a second, which took several seconds on Lion, rather "unstable" pages like Gizmodo also work much better now.
Even Safari itself starts in less than a second, which used to take several seconds. Spotlight also is much more responsive, and the overall feeling is great, though (really only) sometimes little lags (like when scrolling on big pages in safari) are noticeable.
I hope, the performance stays the same - iOS 4 was also a lot faster in Beta than iOS 3 on my iPhone 3G, but with the final version it became unusable slow.

I can also confirm this. 13" MPB Mid-2010 (2.4ghz/8GB RAM/256GB SSD). It's faster than Lion on 10.7.3, that's for sure. A lot of stuff actually feels much, much smoother, in particular Safari. The animations in Launchpad, both for opening it and the folders within, are no longer choppy for me. Mail, which always seemed to lag a fair amount in Lion, is also much smoother. It needs to be taken into account that I didn't have a terrible experience in Lion- far from it, but it was not on par with Snow Leopard in terms of smoothness, which disappointed me. I did consider downgrading, but I've become quite dependant on many of the new features, along with the UI changes, which I actually like. So when Mountain Lion was announced, I went ahead and dual-booted it in the hopes that it would withhold Lion's featureset but streamline the OS and smooth out a lot of the issues. And it seems to have done that. Definitely a promising start. Hope that helps.

Skika
Feb 17, 2012, 05:02 AM
Trivial argument is trivial.



Woah buddy, you sure got me.

bushido
Feb 17, 2012, 05:03 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A406 Safari/7534.48.3)

Spotlight isnt working, anyone else? edit: suddenly works now, odd

oh and im probably still the only one who likes Mission Control ^^ probably because i never open more then one window of an app anyway

Jagardn
Feb 17, 2012, 06:37 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A406 Safari/7534.48.3)

Spotlight isnt working, anyone else? edit: suddenly works now, odd

oh and im probably still the only one who likes Mission Control ^^ probably because i never open more then one window of an app anyway

I am the other person that likes MC. I'm hoping it's destined for the iPad.

cmChimera
Feb 17, 2012, 06:50 AM
I would rather see iOS apps being renamed to iCal and Address book than reverse.

Contacts and Calendar seem to generic.

Address Book is not generic? Do people just enjoy finding some reason to complain?

OLDCODGER
Feb 17, 2012, 07:20 AM
Oh don't be so dramatic. So you'll switch to windows because of a few features u don't like? What do u hate so much? U don't think u can come to like it or at least tolerate it? What if u hate windows even more? Never buy a computer again? Just move forward and move on

First, Windows is out of the question - period!

Second, I am hoping, as I said, to hack SL to non-Macs as a last resort to stick with OS X, replete with Rosetta and Sheepshaver.

Third, if all else fails, I shall move completely to Linux (Ubuntu). I already have a Dell laptop running Ubuntu, and find it generally suitable for most tasks - including Sheepshaver.

Finally, it is not the OS per se, but the Apple ID and download regimen that stopped me even considering Lion.

torana355
Feb 17, 2012, 07:22 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A406 Safari/7534.48.3)



oh and im probably still the only one who likes Mission Control ^^ probably because i never open more then one window of an app anyway

Same, i hated expose but love MC, Go figure. That said i like to work neatly so i don't have a need for multiple windows in one app. Im also one of the few people that found Lion faster then Snow Leopard and just as stable too. The only thing im worried about is Apple moving in the "lock everything down to the app store" direction.... If Apple lock down OSX too much they will lose their long time professional customers.

DeckMan
Feb 17, 2012, 08:57 AM
That is not accurate. CMD-Delete only works when you are given the opportunity to set the name of the file, i.e. the first time you save.

It does not work for a document that has already been saved once. i.e. once you save a document, Versions takes over and there is no option to easily "Don't Save" changes.

The easiest way I have found is the Duplicate route - create a duplicate, close the original one, and don't save the duplicate. This has one advantage over the old system, in that you can't overwrite the original document by mistake (and if you do, e.g. by forgetting to create a duplicate, you can go back using Versions). Of course it's not as easy as before Autosave, but on the other hand, you don't have to manually save your stuff anymore, which is a big pro in my opinion.

colourfastt
Feb 17, 2012, 09:30 AM
The easiest way I have found is the Duplicate route - create a duplicate, close the original one, and don't save the duplicate. This has one advantage over the old system, in that you can't overwrite the original document by mistake (and if you do, e.g. by forgetting to create a duplicate, you can go back using Versions). Of course it's not as easy as before Autosave, but on the other hand, you don't have to manually save your stuff anymore, which is a big pro in my opinion.

The "duplicate" method is unnecessarily complex; as for manually saving items, anyone who has been using computers for more than 18 months is more than capable of saving on his own.

dreamtenstudios
Feb 17, 2012, 09:42 AM
I personally wasn't that excited about the new features. I don't really want my Mac to act like an iPad, though I see why they are moving in this direction. Messages and new iCloud functionality is cool, but I wish more attention would be devoted to making the OS more lean and fast performing, similar to what they did when SL was released.

I do love how quickly they are moving with their OS iterations though. They don't leave us in the dark for years wondering if anyone's actually doing anything at the company (i.e. microsoft w/windows vista).

DeckMan
Feb 17, 2012, 10:27 AM
The "duplicate" method is unnecessarily complex; as for manually saving items, anyone who has been using computers for more than 18 months is more than capable of saving on his own.

You never forgot to save things? Congratulations! I know a bunch of people who have been using computer for a couple of years, and still make that stupid beginner's mistake.[/irony]

Frankly, you can think about John Gruber what you want, but I reckon he's pretty capable of using his computer, and still.. (http://daringfireball.net/2009/02/untitled_document_syndrome)

While I'm all for an option to disable Autosave, I believe it's better than no autosave. Feel free to disagree. :)

secretanchitman
Feb 17, 2012, 11:17 AM
IMO, Expose from Snow Leopard (more so Leopard) was fantastic and near perfect for multitasking, but I don't think Apple will bring it back exactly as we remember it. I think they may tweak some aspects of Mission Control though, as it needs some serious work.

I like how MC displays the numerous desktops/spaces along the top of the screen, but it really should display each and every open window for that desktop too. Layering the same application windows over one another creates a very cluttered experience. We open MC to find a particular window right? What good does it do when MC is just as disorganised as our regular desktop?

OS 10.8 really needs to address this problem.

Also, Mountain Lion needs to take some cues from Snow Leopard from a performance perspective. SL was a huge leap from Leopard in terms of performance, ML needs to do the same to Lion.

i totally agree with you. i know they wont cut out most of the stuff, and honestly, i dont mind if they dont. all i want is just for apple to give us an option to ungroup windows and let us see everything. literally is the only reason i havent gone to lion (or mountain lion) yet. the minor quirks like the lack of color, address book/ical colors, and animations are fluff because that is all fixable, but mission control is not.

they have plenty of time to give us that option back in time for release - who knows if they will, but here's to hoping that they work on it!

The Phazer
Feb 17, 2012, 11:31 AM
While some of the new features are hopeless or badly designed, that doesn't really bother me - I can just not use them. And at least they have not broken any more of the core elements of the OS, even though the discrimination against notifications from non-app store apps is extremely unfortunate.

But the problem is that they haven't undone any of the disasters from Lion. Still can't disable Versions (Duplicate remains rubbish, security issues still abound). Still can't customise gestures. Still can't recolour icons. Still can't ungroup windows in Mission Control.

Phazer

colourfastt
Feb 17, 2012, 11:59 AM
You never forgot to save things? Congratulations! I know a bunch of people who have been using computer for a couple of years, and still make that stupid beginner's mistake.

Frankly, you can think about John Gruber what you want, but I reckon he's pretty capable of using his computer, and still.. (http://daringfireball.net/2009/02/untitled_document_syndrome)

While I'm all for an option to disable Autosave, I believe it's better than no autosave. Feel free to disagree. :)

Since I've been using computers for over 30 years (starting with punch cards on mainframe systems) I never had a problem with forgetting to save a file.

holden57
Feb 17, 2012, 12:14 PM
Third, if all else fails, I shall move completely to Linux (Ubuntu). I already have a Dell laptop running Ubuntu, and find it generally suitable for most tasks - including Sheepshaver.


These are my thoughts as well. The great thing about Linux is that you have the freedom to use your computer as you wish, and in the way that is most productive for you. I suppose I will use Snow Leopard as long as I can however.

dashiel
Feb 17, 2012, 12:33 PM
For me, Lion represented the end of OS updates. Snow Leopard is as far as I intend to go, so any HW upgrades will be other than Mac, once I can no longer hack SL to a Mac.

I have been an Apple exclusive user since 1983, but, sadly, all good things come to an end.

What is it about Lion you find so abhorrent? I have to admit I have a difficult time fathoming how someone who could endure the nightmare that was System 7.1-.7.X and 10.0-10.2 is finding Lion so unacceptable.

Riemann Zeta
Feb 17, 2012, 12:34 PM
I'm using Lion right now and apart from auto-save--which still sucks (and was just a dumb idea, as it has destroyed more files than it has saved...what ever happened to being able to NOT save changes)--it is usable because a lot of the annoying things can be turned off, leaving me with (almost) exactly what I wanted: the most up-to-date version of the sophisticated yet smooth Mac OS. If all the crap is mandatory on 10.8, and so is the Mac App Store (apparently there will be no more software updates, no more dmgs), then it seems that the once great flexibility provided by Mac OS will be gone completely. Mac OS, err, excuse me, Apple OS X, will be like Windows 8--a consumer-based OS that is focused on things like facebook and is designed for phones and tablets.

FreeBSD anyone? It's Mac OS's older, nerdier and more anti-social brother. I guess I could get used to KDE... :(

haravikk
Feb 17, 2012, 12:40 PM
I'm interested whether there are any improvements to Mission Control, since that seemed to be a pretty sought-after feature. All they really need to do is allow you to expand window groups, e.g - click on group windows to switch to application windows view.

The other thing I'm interested in seeing is Lion's fullscreen mode actually support multiple screens. Especially with AirPlay being one of the hyped features.

OLDCODGER
Feb 17, 2012, 01:04 PM
What is it about Lion you find so abhorrent? I have to admit I have a difficult time fathoming how someone who could endure the nightmare that was System 7.1-.7.X and 10.0-10.2 is finding Lion so unacceptable.

The closed system is the killer. Apple ID - with all of its info requirements. Download and install - without DMG for b/up. The need for high speed net at all times, etc. I don't want Apple running my system for me, determining what I can and can't do with my own m/c. In all of my Mac years, Apple has never known whom I am, since I have never registered anything and insurance has been handled outside the Apple system.

As for the OS itself, I've not bothered to look closely at it, but Versions, as is, is also a killer. My research work includes accessing several thousand documents via several copies of a text search app, working on some of them, and saving back to a designated folder. With Versions active, it would send my search apps (and me) crazy.

matankai
Feb 17, 2012, 01:15 PM
Do the existing version of Pages work with the new Docs in the Cloud, or will we be seeing a summer update for iWork as well?

Hi guys, I was wondering if someone who knows the answer to this can please clarify, because I was wondering the same thing.
Thank you!

Ice Dragon
Feb 17, 2012, 01:17 PM
The death of HDMI out. It's minor and I can deal with it though I am not too keen on everything being wireless. Is Thunderbolt the future?

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 17, 2012, 01:31 PM
The death of HDMI out. It's minor and I can deal with it though I am not too keen on everything being wireless. Is Thunderbolt the future?

wait, you DON'T want things to be wireless?? Geeze I can't wait for wireless charging

dashiel
Feb 17, 2012, 01:33 PM
The closed system is the killer. Apple ID - with all of its info requirements. Download and install - without DMG for b/up. The need for high speed net at all times, etc. I don't want Apple running my system for me, determining what I can and can't do with my own m/c. In all of my Mac years, Apple has never known whom I am, since I have never registered anything and insurance has been handled outside the Apple system.

As for the OS itself, I've not bothered to look closely at it, but Versions, as is, is also a killer. My research work includes accessing several thousand documents via several copies of a text search app, working on some of them, and saving back to a designated folder. With Versions active, it would send my search apps (and me) crazy.

Ah youíre one of those. I assume you are running Tor? The 21st Century is going to be a real challenge.

DeckMan
Feb 17, 2012, 01:40 PM
...apart from auto-save--which still sucks (and was just a dumb idea, as it has destroyed more files than it has saved...

Again, Autosave doesn't destroy files, thanks to Versions.

The death of HDMI out. It's minor and I can deal with it though I am not too keen on everything being wireless. Is Thunderbolt the future?

Thunderbolt might well be the future of video and data transfer. I'm not sure if there's a need for USB or Ethernet anymore (if everything was compatible to Thunderbolt, of course).

----------

wait, you DON'T want things to be wireless?? Geeze I can't wait for wireless charging

No more batteries! :D

OLDCODGER
Feb 17, 2012, 01:43 PM
Ah youíre one of those. I assume you are running Tor? The 21st Century is going to be a real challenge.

No, not Tor. As for the twenty-first century, if you mean the Cloud, it serves no purpose for me. I have no i-toys and don't want any ( I have a phone - it makes phone calls, when I deign to switch the darn thing on). Streaming is of no interest - I'm too busy. The twenty-first century will be no problem for me, I just want to be able to use well-made H/W, with a fully controllable OS and file system - in stand-alone condition.

ADMProducer
Feb 17, 2012, 01:56 PM
No, not Tor. As for the twenty-first century, if you mean the Cloud, it serves no purpose for me. I have no i-toys and don't want any ( I have a phone - it makes phone calls, when I deign to switch the darn thing on). Streaming is of no interest - I'm too busy. The twenty-first century will be no problem for me, I just want to be able to use well-made H/W, with a fully controllable OS and file system - in stand-alone condition.

Your username suits well, I see.

holden57
Feb 17, 2012, 01:59 PM
I'm using Lion right now and apart from auto-save--which still sucks (and was just a dumb idea, as it has destroyed more files than it has saved...what ever happened to being able to NOT save changes)--it is usable because a lot of the annoying things can be turned off, leaving me with (almost) exactly what I wanted: the most up-to-date version of the sophisticated yet smooth Mac OS. If all the crap is mandatory on 10.8, and so is the Mac App Store (apparently there will be no more software updates, no more dmgs), then it seems that the once great flexibility provided by Mac OS will be gone completely. Mac OS, err, excuse me, Apple OS X, will be like Windows 8--a consumer-based OS that is focused on things like facebook and is designed for phones and tablets.

FreeBSD anyone? It's Mac OS's older, nerdier and more anti-social brother. I guess I could get used to KDE... :(


Autosave and Mission Control are the main things that have kept me away from Lion as of now. In Lion's defense it actually does not look that bad compared to many of the alternatives, but if Mountain Lion is going to continue on the iOS path, I'd rather continue to use what works for me. And I totally considered a dual boot of FreeBSD on my Macbook haha, but figured it wasn't worth messing up something that works great as it is.

dashiel
Feb 17, 2012, 02:04 PM
No, not Tor.
Something else?

As for the twenty-first century, if you mean the Cloud, it serves no purpose for me. I have no i-toys and don't want any ( I have a phone - it makes phone calls, when I deign to switch the darn thing on). Streaming is of no interest - I'm too busy.

Clearly.

The twenty-first century will be no problem for me, I just want to be able to use well-made H/W, with a fully controllable OS and file system - in stand-alone condition.

No credit cards then? No car built after, what 2001? No online purchases? Use Lynx for your web browser? No commercial flights? Seems like an awful lot of effort, and itís not like society is heading towards a less connected state this is the bottom of the hockey stick Ö Hey you arenít Richard Stallman are you?

Brammy
Feb 17, 2012, 03:21 PM
No, not Tor. As for the twenty-first century, if you mean the Cloud, it serves no purpose for me. I have no i-toys and don't want any ( I have a phone - it makes phone calls, when I deign to switch the darn thing on). Streaming is of no interest - I'm too busy. The twenty-first century will be no problem for me, I just want to be able to use well-made H/W, with a fully controllable OS and file system - in stand-alone condition.

I'm not entirely certain where Lion/ML piss in your wheaties. I will grant you the Duplicate/Versioning for PDFs is troublesome and aggravating, but I don't see anything in OS X 10.8 that neccesitates you having an iCloud account, an i-toy, or high-speed bandwith at all times, etc. You can choose to not store your Documents in the Cloud and use local storage. You can keep your computer private and never have Apple know who you are.

OS X 10.8 does not force you to buy apps from the Mac Store. You can choose to run unsigned software. I don't think Apple will ever force this since developers like Adobe and Microsoft aren't likely to sell their apps in the Mac store.

sea stobble
Feb 17, 2012, 03:27 PM
No, not Tor. As for the twenty-first century, if you mean the Cloud, it serves no purpose for me. I have no i-toys and don't want any ( I have a phone - it makes phone calls, when I deign to switch the darn thing on). Streaming is of no interest - I'm too busy. The twenty-first century will be no problem for me, I just want to be able to use well-made H/W, with a fully controllable OS and file system - in stand-alone condition.

Download an old OS and don't complain when it can't do the things the newer ones can.

Krazy Bill
Feb 17, 2012, 03:53 PM
Download an old OS and don't complain when it can't do the things the newer ones can.Uh... does anyone really do that? (Complain about an admittedly older OS not doing what the new one does)

dashiel
Feb 17, 2012, 04:04 PM
OS X 10.8 does not force you to buy apps from the Mac Store. You can choose to run unsigned software. I don't think Apple will ever force this since developers like Adobe and Microsoft aren't likely to sell their apps in the Mac store.

ML itself will be App Store only (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/02/17/apple_ends_physical_media_os_distribution_with_mountain_lion.html)

Ice Dragon
Feb 17, 2012, 04:44 PM
wait, you DON'T want things to be wireless?? Geeze I can't wait for wireless charging

I just don't think we're there yet. I am sure Apple will prove me wrong.

stewacide
Feb 17, 2012, 05:02 PM
ML itself will be App Store only (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/02/17/apple_ends_physical_media_os_distribution_with_mountain_lion.html)

That's a bit annoying e.g. for folks whos internet is very metred because it's 3g or whatever.

parestailor
Feb 17, 2012, 05:06 PM
i wonder how much CPU does Lion Mountain require to operate smoothly? i mean is it a hogg on CPU and GPU?

ufdlim
Feb 17, 2012, 05:32 PM
They put Software Update with the App Store now.

...

AND ITS BROKEN. Can't get my HP printer drivers, no matter how many times I've tried.

KnightWRX
Feb 17, 2012, 05:50 PM
I just don't think we're there yet. I am sure Apple will prove me wrong.

Apple ? I wirelessly charge my HP touchpad every day ... Induction charging is already here and it's no thanks to Apple.

DeckMan
Feb 17, 2012, 05:53 PM
They put Software Update with the App Store now.

...

AND ITS BROKEN. Can't get my HP printer drivers, no matter how many times I've tried.

I'm kind of assuming they will fix that. Of course, if it persists, it might help to report that - they have a bug report tool for developers, I reckon?

Also, does that mean the App Store will finally check for updates automatically without having to launch it?

Jaben3421
Feb 17, 2012, 06:11 PM
where can we find that new desktop wallpaper? :D

Here 'ya go
http://jaben3421.org/EKzZ

OLDCODGER
Feb 17, 2012, 06:47 PM
Your username suits well, I see.

Heh! Indeed it does! :)

OLDCODGER
Feb 17, 2012, 06:58 PM
I'm not entirely certain where Lion/ML piss in your wheaties. I will grant you the Duplicate/Versioning for PDFs is troublesome and aggravating, but I don't see anything in OS X 10.8 that neccesitates you having an iCloud account, an i-toy, or high-speed bandwith at all times, etc. You can choose to not store your Documents in the Cloud and use local storage. You can keep your computer private and never have Apple know who you are.

OS X 10.8 does not force you to buy apps from the Mac Store. You can choose to run unsigned software. I don't think Apple will ever force this since developers like Adobe and Microsoft aren't likely to sell their apps in the Mac store.


It is the whole Apple ID and sheep herding regimen that has stopped me from considering Lion - regardless of how good/bad the OS is. However, someone further up the thread mentioned the possibility of losing Finder at some stage - that is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

KnightWRX
Feb 17, 2012, 07:55 PM
It is the whole Apple ID and sheep herding regimen that has stopped me from considering Lion - regardless of how good/bad the OS is. However, someone further up the thread mentioned the possibility of losing Finder at some stage - that is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

You don't need an Apple ID to get Lion, nor is there "sheep herding".

InuNacho
Feb 17, 2012, 07:56 PM
However, someone further up the thread mentioned the possibility of losing Finder at some stage - that is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

Yea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.

klaxamazoo
Feb 17, 2012, 08:21 PM
I could see Finder eventually replaced with something. But I would be surprised if the folder/file hierarchy is replaced anytime soon. I do see Apple moving toward Applications "owning" their documents, but that only works for simple paradigms and I personally don't like Apple's organization methods with regards to Application organized documents i.e. iTunes puts all episodes of the same TV show in the same folder and iPhoto can do horrible things to Photos if you let it.

The other negative of Applications owning their documents is that challenge of moving away from the application for "neutral" file formats if/when the Application stops filling your needs. i.e. iPhoto 11 is just way too slow and bloated for me to use.

In some respects iCloud documents is "spiffy" but single level folders is not something than works for anything other than simple structure like my mother's Documents folder which only has ~10 documents is fine in iCloud. In contrast, I have thousands of word documents that cannot be organized in a single folder system.

I know a lot of people like using tags to organize/categorize documents, but a folder system really is a just an very efficient tag system that automatically adds hierarchical data.

OLDCODGER
Feb 17, 2012, 08:22 PM
You don't need an Apple ID to get Lion, nor is there "sheep herding".

So how do I pay for it - other than the rip-off USB stick?

As for the sheep, we shall see - as the system becomes ever more locked.

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 17, 2012, 08:58 PM
Apple ? I wirelessly charge my HP touchpad every day ... Induction charging is already here and it's no thanks to Apple.

I consider induction charging a cop out. I want to be able to charge my iPhone when it is placed within 5-10 feet of a power source. Remember WiTricity? (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/11/apples-interest-in-witricity-wireless-charging/) That is supposed to work within a range of 2m (6.5ft).

Brammy
Feb 17, 2012, 09:36 PM
It is the whole Apple ID and sheep herding regimen that has stopped me from considering Lion - regardless of how good/bad the OS is. However, someone further up the thread mentioned the possibility of losing Finder at some stage - that is a no-no as far as I am concerned.
Isn't that worrying too far in the future? Why stop using a product now based on worrying about a feature they may not ever eliminate?

----------

ML itself will be App Store only (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/02/17/apple_ends_physical_media_os_distribution_with_mountain_lion.html)


That, that right there is a damn good point.

iMacian
Feb 18, 2012, 10:25 AM
I'm not impressed. The new reminders and notes don't sync with Google, so they are useless to me.

Also I can't figure out how to remove a widget from the dashboard. No little x appears and there is no trash bin to drag them to. What am I suppossed to do? Major UI fail!

Also you can't drag the Notifications from the top bar. It apparently has "Spotlight" privileges...

maflynn
Feb 18, 2012, 11:02 AM
I'm not impressed. The new reminders and notes don't sync with Google, so they are useless to me.

Why should you be surprised, this is about the Apple eco-system and its iCloud. The last thing they want to do is promote a product that is in competition. I'm not saying its a great move by them, but just pointing out that Apple's focus is with integrating with apple products not Google's

iKIKO
Feb 18, 2012, 11:37 AM
I'm not entirely certain where Lion/ML piss in your wheaties. I will grant you the Duplicate/Versioning for PDFs is troublesome and aggravating, but I don't see anything in OS X 10.8 that neccesitates you having an iCloud account, an i-toy, or high-speed bandwith at all times, etc. You can choose to not store your Documents in the Cloud and use local storage. You can keep your computer private and never have Apple know who you are.

OS X 10.8 does not force you to buy apps from the Mac Store. You can choose to run unsigned software. I don't think Apple will ever force this since developers like Adobe and Microsoft aren't likely to sell their apps in the Mac store.

if that happens now we will have to jailbreak our mac's :D

Ice Dragon
Feb 18, 2012, 04:03 PM
Apple ? I wirelessly charge my HP touchpad every day ... Induction charging is already here and it's no thanks to Apple.

I think people are reading me wrong. I am not against wireless technology though I don't think everything is perfect say for a display connection or such.

ryan.stewie
Feb 18, 2012, 06:32 PM
My thoughts on 10.8...
http://a.images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/14808544.jpg
Seriously, there's not one feature in Mountain Lion that we've seen yet that is remotely convincing for me to purchase it.

Jagardn
Feb 18, 2012, 07:00 PM
I'm not impressed. The new reminders and notes don't sync with Google, so they are useless to me.

Maybe if you had a better phone, you could sync your reminders and notes. ;):D

dethmaShine
Feb 18, 2012, 07:24 PM
I would like for my iPad to run OSX, not for my MBP to run iOS!

Okay what exactly this gains from iOS?

- Notes app: It's an app, just like other apps.
- Game centre: A social network for games; first in iOS because it made more sense there.
- iMessage: A full featured messaging client.
- Reminders app: Makes much more sense on iOS but good that there's now a mac-client.
- Notification Centre: A terrible implementation but for whatever it is, is a notification centre. What is really the problem here?
- Twitter: Twitter integration? Great.

iOSification of OS X is a bland argument. They're just adding more features to the operating system in a way they are meant to be.

OS X is not being iOSified. It's the same old OS X but now with features that were first introduced in iOS. No big deal.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 07:33 PM
So how do I pay for it - other than the rip-off USB stick?

The rip-off USB stick. The option is there.

As for the sheep, we shall see - as the system becomes ever more locked.

Speculate all you want, it's not even beginning to be "locked" yet. I decided that I would cross that bridge when (if) I get to it. Frankly, I have no issues going back to Slackware or Arch if Apple does blow a computing fuse.

Lesser Evets
Feb 18, 2012, 07:33 PM
Why are they pushing out a new one before quashing the bugs in the old one?
Is it that the design philosophy behind Lion was found to be flawed, and they started over on a better base, or are they just skipping forward to wallpaper over Lion's problems? Option two seems more likely from what I've read so far.

That was my first thought this week.

Mac OSX releases take about 9 months to become reliable, unless you are just internet dorkin' and doing simple tasks. If they keep rolling out additional OSX versions yearly to sell another $29 OS to Mac users, it means we get a constantly buggy OSX experience.

I've read somewhere something about Carbon being wiped out of ML, and so ML is all Cocoa based. I can't verify anything about that, but it would make sense as to why more Macs can't run ML and why the OSX is being released. Apple has been flopping around with the 64-bit stuff for a long time, when it should have shifted definitively with Lion.

It SEEMS Mt. Lion will be the move to abandon the clunky old programming core and switch decisively to the newer processors. It also allows all these social bits-n-piece to integrate to Mac from iDevices. I think the idea is sound and welcome and awaited... now... I will upgrade in January 2013, or when 10.8.3 comes out.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 07:35 PM
I consider induction charging a cop out. I want to be able to charge my iPhone when it is placed within 5-10 feet of a power source.

Why is it a cop out ? It's really nice just dropping my Touchpad on its slab thingie and the thing charges without having to plug a wire into it. So quick.

And remote charging is a big no. The last time we had the tech for it, Cobra stole it for their Cobra-la organisation so they could hatch spores in space and mutate the whole race into mindless beasts. Really, we're not going to make another B.E.T. soon.

roadbloc
Feb 18, 2012, 07:37 PM
You never forgot to save things? Congratulations! I know a bunch of people who have been using computer for a couple of years, and still make that stupid beginner's mistake.[/irony]

No offense, but since I started using computers, I was always greeted with a screen such as this if I forgot to save.

http://i.imgur.com/HHuLe.jpg

As for ML, I'm happy with it in the sense that it looks like what I imagined Lion to be like (include all the iOS features consistently), but unfortunately I do not like most of the iOS features on my desktop OS, so I'm still sticking with Snow Leopard.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 07:38 PM
Mac OSX releases take about 9 months to become reliable, unless you are just internet dorkin' and doing simple tasks. If they keep rolling out additional OSX versions yearly to sell another $29 OS to Mac users, it means we get a constantly buggy OSX experience.


The thing with shortened development cycles is that you introduce less change per release. Less changes per release means getting said changes stable takes less time.

Thus, before we had 3 year release cycles and 6-9 months stabilization periods, now that we have 1 year release cycles, stabilization should be reached without a 2-3 month period.

iOS is a yearly release, we don't have to wait 9 months for it to stabilize.

Lesser Evets
Feb 18, 2012, 07:40 PM
The thing with shortened development cycles is that you introduce less change per release. Less changes per release means getting said changes stable takes less time.

Thus, before we had 3 year release cycles and 6-9 months stabilization periods, now that we have 1 year release cycles, stabilization should be reached without a 2-3 month period.

iOS is a yearly release, we don't have to wait 9 months for it to stabilize.

Man... you are a professional cheerleader. Get a paycheck for that optimism!

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 07:40 PM
No offense, but since I started using computers, I was always greeted

I can't even begin counting the number of times that I never got to that screen before I lost 30 minutes or an hour of work because of a crash, power failure or other problem that caused an application to simply close without running through its proper shutdown routine.

Or how many times I've saved changes only to realise I didn't want them and couldn't revert back.

Versions is great. I don't understand what people don't like about it. It just means you get instant localized snapshotting and can revert any number of changes back.

Mad Mac Maniac
Feb 18, 2012, 08:01 PM
Why is it a cop out ? It's really nice just dropping my Touchpad on its slab thingie and the thing charges without having to plug a wire into it. So quick.


Well I've just always felt that things like touchstone and powermat (http://shop.powermat.com/pick-a-bundled-solution/powermat-wireless-charging-system-for-iphone-4r.html) more gimmicky than anything else. If it works for you that's great, and I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm just not convinced that it's really much of an improvement, if any improvement at all.

Being able to simply have my iPhone in an area of a 10 foot radius would be pretty great. Ultimately I'd like to be able to have my entire home be within the charge radius. My iPhone starts charging the second I walk in the door.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 08:05 PM
Well I've just always felt that things like touchstone and powermat (http://shop.powermat.com/pick-a-bundled-solution/powermat-wireless-charging-system-for-iphone-4r.html) more gimmicky than anything else. If it works for you that's great, and I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm just not convinced that it's really much of an improvement, if any improvement at all.

Being able to simply have my iPhone in an area of a 10 foot radius would be pretty great. Ultimately I'd like to be able to have my entire home be within the charge radius. My iPhone starts charging the second I walk in the door.

Sure, and I'd like my phone to simply charge everywhere I stand and actually, I'd like all my electronics to not be dependant on batteries at all.

But in the interim, we have induction charging. Not fiddling with wires is pretty nice. Apple would definately get to it like HP did with the TouchPad. It's a great feature.

QuarterSwede
Feb 18, 2012, 08:11 PM
Versions is great. I don't understand what people don't like about it. It just means you get instant localized snapshotting and can revert any number of changes back.
They don't like it because they don't understand what it's doing, don't trust it and/or don't like that Duplicate has no hotkey. What they don't realize is that it adds functionality and takes nothing away.

Also, may I add that you're being extremely positive today.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 08:17 PM
Also, may I add that you're being extremely positive today.

Uh ? I'm the same I always am. Look at the Siri thread or the iPhone 4 antenna one if miss the "negativity". You do realise I hang around here because I actually like some of Apple's stuff right ? ;)

Nishi100
Feb 18, 2012, 08:40 PM
I'll get 10.8 if they fix mission control, make all of the new apps more consistent (right now it looks like a different team of devs made each app) and make copying (i hate to say it but) more like windows 8.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 12:18 AM
It is the whole Apple ID and sheep herding regimen that has stopped me from considering Lion - regardless of how good/bad the OS is. However, someone further up the thread mentioned the possibility of losing Finder at some stage - that is a no-no as far as I am concerned.

What's wrong with Apple IDs? Other than their failure to merge multiple accounts?

cocky jeremy
Feb 19, 2012, 01:56 AM
Love it so far. Few things:

1) Is there a way to set a keyboard shortcut for viewing notification center?
2) Am i the only one that sometimes right-clicks on a website and gets a "Twitter" contextual item sometimes, and sometimes not?

iMacian
Feb 19, 2012, 07:44 AM
So apparently I had to downgrade yesterday. As with every major OS X upgrade some applications are broken. It has gotten better, Leopard was the worst breaking even trivial apps like Adium but it's always the same story and with the shorter release cycles this is going to suck.

It's about time Apple introduces some sort of compatibility mode.

Autocad would not start (It is still a messy early version)
Parallels would not start (They probably still insist on forcing you to purchase a paid upgrade for each new Windows and OS X release - 2012 is a good year for them)
iStat Pro

The issue I had with dashboard is fixed with an update, now small icons show up in the bottom left.

maflynn
Feb 19, 2012, 07:48 AM
So apparently I had to downgrade yesterday.

Well I hate to state the obvious but it is a developer preview, who's intended purpose is to provide developers with the product to test their apps on. Given that they just go it, its not surprising apps are not working.

Apple also invites a select number of non-developers to test the OS and shake out any bugs and incompatibilities.

Bottom line is its very early in the the life cycle

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 07:57 AM
No offense, but since I started using computers, I was always greeted with a screen such as this if I forgot to save.

Oh ok, it was a communication issue. I was talking about the rare case when an app (or the whole computer) crashes or someone plugs the iMac out by accident or there's a power outage and you're not on a portable or... you get the idea.

Nice picture, by the way :D

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 08:10 AM
I've read somewhere something about Carbon being wiped out of ML, and so ML is all Cocoa based. I can't verify anything about that, ...

Where did you read that? That would be unfortunate.
All I could find is that they deprecated it, which could be considered a warning that Carbon apps won't be supported in a future OS X, possibly 10.9 in 2013.

I'll get 10.8 if they fix mission control, make all of the new apps more consistent (right now it looks like a different team of devs made each app) and make copying (i hate to say it but) more like windows 8.

If you want them to "fix" Mission Control, you should use their bug report / feature request form to tell them what's broken.

Also, what's copying in Windows 8 like? I'm curious, is it any different than in Windows 7?

dashiel
Feb 19, 2012, 08:19 AM
No offense, but since I started using computers, I was always greeted with a screen such as this if I forgot to save.

Did you ever accidentally click Yes when you didnít mean to click No? I have a hard time believing users, no matter how advanced, have never made the wrong decision when saving a document.

Versions isnít about Save/Donít Save, itís about never having to worry about that kind of thing again.

roadbloc
Feb 19, 2012, 08:34 AM
Did you ever accidentally click Yes when you didn't mean to click No? I have a hard time believing users, no matter how advanced, have never made the wrong decision when saving a document.

I'm the kinda guy who reads everything that pops up on my screen before clicking, so no, I don't think I have ever made that mistake. I do however appreciate that many users tend to click out of sheer terror when a dialogue box appears, so I agree that in rare cases, the mistake can happen.

That unfortunately does not make me like autosave any more than I did before.

dashiel
Feb 19, 2012, 08:59 AM
Where did you read that? That would be unfortunate.
All I could find is that they deprecated it, which could be considered a warning that Carbon apps won't be supported in a future OS X, possibly 10.9 in 2013.

Apps submitted to App Store must use sandboxing starting soon (next month?), carbon doesnít support sandboxing so all new apps submitted to the store using Carbon APIs wonít be allowed on the App Store. Carbon Apps from outside the App store will continue to function.

I have no doubt Carbon will be deprecated soon, but Apple made it abundantly clear during the Intel switch, Carbon is a dead end. Itís been 6 years since Apple made that announcement, 5Ĺ years since all shipping Macs were Intel, 2Ĺ years since Apple shipped an Intel only OS. Behemoth apps like Office and Photoshop have been ported to Cocoa, thereís simply no excuse for using Carbon anymore.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 09:02 AM
That unfortunately does not make me like autosave any more than I did before.

What don't you like about it anyhow ? How is it different ? versions/autosave provides you the same functionality you had before, except in an automated way. But check this : Now instead of only having the last copy you saved, you have... well... all of them.

Autosave saves something it shouldn't have ? So what, versions has that copy you want. Save as ? Sure, duplicate and save will create a whole new copy and tree from the document you're working on.

It's all still there, with the added benefit of not losing work and always having more than 1 revision available.

dashiel
Feb 19, 2012, 09:06 AM
I'm the kinda guy who reads everything that pops up on my screen before clicking, so no, I don't think I have ever made that mistake. I do however appreciate that many users tend to click out of sheer terror when a dialogue box appears, so I agree that in rare cases, the mistake can happen.

Fair enough, thatís A) incredibly impressive, I probably accidentally save/donít save once or twice a month. I wish more of my apps had Versions. B) I think your meticulousness makes you the rare case.

QuarterSwede
Feb 19, 2012, 09:11 AM
Uh ? I'm the same I always am. Look at the Siri thread or the iPhone 4 antenna one if miss the "negativity". You do realise I hang around here because I actually like some of Apple's stuff right ? ;)
Maybe I didn't mean positive, civil is probably more appropriate. The KnightWRX that's in my head is generally brash.

Brenster
Feb 19, 2012, 11:54 AM
-Safari is blazing. HTML5 support improved. Search/Address bar integrated. Seems to store Passwords. Tabs autoscale across. RSS seems to be currently MIA or just broken.


I'm hoping RSS functionality will be restored to Safari in time. I can understand removing it from Mail.app (I was never convinced a mail client was a natural place for notifying new web content), but the listing of new RSS content by site and also by group on the menu bar is part and parcel of my daily use of Safari/OSX.

Does clicking on a saved RSS bookmark still bring up the RSS feed for that site?

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
What don't you like about it anyhow ? How is it different ? versions/autosave provides you the same functionality you had before, except in an automated way. But check this : Now instead of only having the last copy you saved, you have... well... all of them.

Autosave saves something it shouldn't have ? So what, versions has that copy you want. Save as ? Sure, duplicate and save will create a whole new copy and tree from the document you're working on.

It's all still there, with the added benefit of not losing work and always having more than 1 revision available.

Yes, you can work with Versions to recover a old state or develop a workflow for "Don't Save" whether through the use of preemptive Duplicates or the more time consuming Revert process.

But that is not a good excuse for why there SHOULD not be a quick "Don't Save" method that was as easy as before (i.e. CMD-w, CMD-d for close, don't save). There is a nice, comfortable security to Versions for those that have had issues saving documents or maybe just like not even having to think about it. That is great. But I have yet to see a good reason as to WHY a "Don't Save" shortcut and/or menu command should not be enabled.

It is clear that a good number of people, myself included, routinely don't want to save their changes. So WHY MUST the Don't Save process be more convoluted or take more work than it did before just because the Save process is easier?

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 12:27 PM
Yes, you can work with Versions to recover a old state or develop a workflow for "Don't Save" whether through the use of preemptive Duplicates or the more time consuming Revert process.

But that is not a good excuse for why there SHOULD not be a quick "Don't Save" method that was as easy as before (i.e. CMD-w, CMD-d for close, don't save). There is a nice, comfortable security to Versions for those that have had issues saving documents or maybe just like not even having to think about it. That is great. But I have yet to see a good reason as to WHY a "Don't Save" shortcut and/or menu command should not be enabled.

It is clear that a good number of people, myself included, routinely don't want to save their changes. So WHY MUST the Don't Save process be more convoluted or take more work than it did before just because the Save process is easier?

If you don't want to save your changes, why not just Duplicate, do whatever it is you want to do without saving and then close without... er... saving ?

Achieves the same result. Really, the "workflows" where you "don't want to save" are rare and are still possible using Duplicate or revert as you pointed out.

So nothing is lost, a lot was gained. What's the big deal ?

ixodes
Feb 19, 2012, 12:28 PM
As I continue to scour the web for articles on Mountain Lion, my initial impression is improving. There's a lot to sift through in search of a comprehensive picture, at this early juncture.

Having read a tremendous amount I am beginning to regain the enthusiasm that I like to experience around Apples "desktop OS" (or OS X) ... since I can't call it "Mac OS" any longer :)

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 12:53 PM
If you don't want to save your changes, why not just Duplicate, do whatever it is you want to do without saving and then close without... er... saving ?

Achieves the same result. Really, the "workflows" where you "don't want to save" are rare and are still possible using Duplicate or revert as you pointed out.

So nothing is lost, a lot was gained. What's the big deal ?

But why not just have a "Don't Save" command?

The big deal is the following:

A) You might not know that you don't want to save until you have been working for a while. i.e. it is too late to Duplicate. You can Revert but that is assuming you can find the Version you want to Revert back to after an hour or so of working. Also, that requires 2 menu commands, an animation, waiting for Version to load the changes, scrolling through the changes, hoping you find the correct change, selecting that (hopefully) correct version, waiting for an animation and then you are finally back to what CMD-w, CMD-d used to get you

B) Versions corrupts data. A change on Lion is automatically the only version you have in SL, Windows, as that file is copied or propagated through a network

C) You still haven't supplied a reason WHY a Don't Save command should not be implemented.



It is clear that you only care about the end results. i.e. I got my document back to the State I want, so I am fine. Some of us care about the Journey and process itself. Personally, I hate driving, I hate the entire experience. If I can bike to the store I will even though the end result of being at the store is the same, I don't drive to the store because the process itself is annoying.

Workflow matters to some people. It is great that the end result is all you need or ultimately gauge the quality of a product or process by. But the end result does not enough. If I cared only about end result I would have stuck with Windows XP and my old Dell laptop. It got the job done. But I hated working on it, just like I now hate working with Lion. I hate the workflow imposed by Mission Control and Versions. Since a good majority of my work consists of creating and editing documents, MC and Versions impacts my workflow and is unacceptable. Luckily I still have a SL compatible laptop that is good for another 3-4 years and I can sell my Lion Macbook Air when I've finished my PhD.

Brendando
Feb 19, 2012, 01:37 PM
Personally I'm all for the changes, I have a couple of iOS devices, and tighter integration with my MPB will be great. I've been running the Developer Preview since release as my main OS, and it's been pretty solid all things considered- apart from the App Store, which for some reason has been incredibly bad. I like the unification of everything, and if anything I'd have them push it further. If they're going to do it, do it completely, and not in a half-ass*d way like they seem to be doing a lot in the last couple of years.

I'm all for them putting in new features, but for god sake, implement them properly before moving onto the next batch. E.G, Launchpad in Lion- it could be a great feature, but it needs work. Only in Mountain Lion have they introduced a search function. I'd also love to see some underlying optimisations- my current set-up is no slouch, and particularly now that I have the SSD and 8GB Ram running inside it, I'd like the shutdowns and startups to be as fast as possible. I'm all for the fluidity of the OS, and all these animations that are being put in, but not if it means sacrificing performance. When I was on 4GB of RAM on Lion I thought about reverting to Snow Leopard, but I'd grown too fond of the GUI changes, and so simply stuck it out. Once I'd got 8GB RAM everything was great again.

Additionally, I see where they're going with all these counterpart applications to iOS, (reminders, notes) and I'm all for cohesion. What I'm a little bit dubious about is the consequential abuse that the OS is taking in terms of consistency- the apps look totally different to one another. There's the nice silvers/greys/linen of the system that are consistent throughout, and then you have Calendars faux leather, Reminders black faux leather, and the Notes "teared page" effect. These I can just about put up with because they're clearly there to mirror their iOS counterparts- and they still look like they belong on OS X. But Address Book is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. I mean honestly, who in their right mind thought that turning it into an actual representation of a real-life address book on THE MAC thought that it would be a good fit? It looks awkward, clunky, and I hate opening it now.

/end rant.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 01:54 PM
You might not know that you don't want to save until you have been working for a while. i.e. it is too late to Duplicate. You can Revert but that is assuming you can find the Version you want to Revert back to after an hour or so of working.

But they *have* exactly that. As long as you don't manually save (or "create a version"), the document will have the "edited" in the title bar and you can very simply return to the last saved version. I haven't tested (yet) what happens after an extended period of not saving, but even after quitting and relaunching the app, the document won't lose it's edited status, and will even allow you to return to the last version when duplicating, if you want to keep both.

Only if you close the document without "not saving" and reopen it, you will have to go the "Browse Versions" route.

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 02:02 PM
But they *have* exactly that. As long as you don't manually save (or "create a version"), the document will have the "edited" in the title bar and you can very simply return to the last saved version. I haven't tested (yet) what happens after an extended period of not saving, but even after quitting and relaunching the app, the document won't lose it's edited status, and will even allow you to return to the last version when duplicating, if you want to keep both.

Only if you close the document without "not saving" and reopen it, you will have to go the "Browse Versions" route.

Once again. Please supply a reason WHY a "Don't Save" quick option SHOULD not be included. Just because there is a convoluted work-around is not excuse for purposely leaving out a quick "Don't Save"

I do not want to have to go through:
- 2 menu commands
- 1 start Versions animation
- 1 wait for computer to think and collect verions
- 1 visually find the correct version
- 1 select the correct version
- 1 select restore or click the correct version
- 1 exit Versions animation
- 1 CMD-w to close the document

versus
- 1 CMD-w to close the document
- 1 CMD-d to not save

or an updated method
- 1 CMD-d to not save followed by 1 CMD-w for close

or maybe
- 1 CMD-SHIFT-w for close without saving.

A keyboad method takes less than 1 second. The current Versions method takes a lot more time and is significantly more distracting.


Please, one of you people provide a detailed REASON as to WHY Versions SHOULD not have a quick "Don't Save." I'm talking about a REASON, not a justification.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 02:14 PM
This wasn't a justification, it was an argument that they *have* a don't save feature. It's two menu commands, period. Explained in my post just above.

What else do you need? They have a "don't save in advance" (i.e. duplicate) and a "forget all the changes I just made".

Edit: Wait, I haven't actually explained it, have I? Whoops. It's by clicking the little triangle next to Edited, then clicking "return to the last version" (or whatever it's called in English).

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 02:14 PM
But why not just have a "Don't Save" command?

The big deal is the following:

A) You might not know that you don't want to save until you have been working for a while. i.e. it is too late to Duplicate. You can Revert but that is assuming you can find the Version you want to Revert back to after an hour or so of working.

How hard is that ? :confused:

When you say revert, it asks "Last saved version" (the one you manually saved) or pops up a Time Machine like interface in which you can browse the documents side by side in full view...

Also, that requires 2 menu commands, an animation, waiting for Version to load the changes, scrolling through the changes, hoping you find the correct change, selecting that (hopefully) correct version, waiting for an animation and then you are finally back to what CMD-w, CMD-d used to get you

Only if you have hit "Save" in the interim, in which case you would have been screwed in the old way anyhow. Otherwise, you can just choose "Last Saved Version" which reverts back to the last version "YOU SAVED" (as it states right there on the dialog), so nothing is lost really, in fact, this is faster than CMD-w, CMD-d :

325275

Of course, you'd know this if you had... used it. ;)

And frankly, situations where you don't want to save changes are quite rare compared to situations where you want to save.

B) Versions corrupts data. A change on Lion is automatically the only version you have in SL, Windows, as that file is copied or propagated through a network

How is that corrupt ? Don't work straight from network shares (you never should anyhow), and if you do, just use your Lion client to revert them if you've inadvertently saved something you didn't want. The data isn't corrupt, it will still open and be displayed fine on Windows or SL, it just won't be what you expect (it'll be your last changes). That's not what data corruption is. Corruption would be where a file refuses to open because of improper format and it would be unsalvageable without resorting to backups.

C) You still haven't supplied a reason WHY a Don't Save command should not be implemented.

I told you : The developer has that freedom and option to do so. Why isn't it implemented ? That's not for me to say, ask your software vendor why they choose not to do it. But again, I don't see the big fuss of Autosave/Versions since all the data is there.

What happened in the old way if you hit save on those changes you didn't want saved ? You were basically screwed and had to either Time Machine the file (which might not even have the latest changes) or revert them back manually. Now at least you have a proper revert option which is quite independent of backup schedules and will contain all versions.

It is clear that you only care about the end results. i.e. I got my document back to the State I want, so I am fine. Some of us care about the Journey and process itself.

The journey and process can be learned and adapted to. The end result brings a lot of advantages that just weren't there before, but the journey needs some adaptation to get us there.

Again, all this is optional to developers, why don't you ask your software vendor to implement the "don't save" option and see if your demand is met ? In the end, maybe the problem is that you don't adapt to the new way. Heck, if you put aside your hesitations and just worked with it, maybe you'd even start to like it.

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 02:43 PM
How hard is that ? :confused:

When you say revert, it asks "Last saved version" (the one you manually saved) or pops up a Time Machine like interface in which you can browse the documents side by side in full view...



Only if you have hit "Save" in the interim, in which case you would have been screwed in the old way anyhow. Otherwise, you can just choose "Last Saved Version" which reverts back to the last version "YOU SAVED" (as it states right there on the dialog), so nothing is lost really, in fact, this is faster than CMD-w, CMD-d :

325275

Of course, you'd know this if you had... used it. ;)


Good tip. I had only tested it after closing a file, then Revert Document sends you directly to Versions. Using Revert before you close has the behavior I'm looking for. I made a quick keyboard shortcut using System Preferences and now I have the CMD-D, ENTER, CMD-w I was looking for. As long as I don't close first I'm golden.


And frankly, situations where you don't want to save changes are quite rare compared to situations where you want to save.


Maybe for you. About 20% of the documents I open or modify on any given day I don't want to save or risk saves. Specifically, anything with data or data analysis tables. Duplicate is annoying because there are additional pop-up boxes that you have to go through and the window is now offset and I have to close two documents instead of one. Not a big deal, but details matter and without Steve Jobs around it looks like the details are slipping.

How is that corrupt ? Don't work straight from network shares.


It is corrupt if I go from USB stick to the next computer or if SugarSync syncs it to my other computers. Prior to Lion syncing was not a risk because I never saved documents that should not be saved. However, as long as I remember to CMD-d on my Lion I'm fine, and CMD-d does nothing other than an annoying sound on SL, so no big deal and I might be able to turn that off.


Again, all this is optional to developers, why don't you ask your software vendor to implement the "don't save" option and see if your demand is met ?


The developers aren't on the forums telling people that Versions is fine. Other forum members are. Versions supporters merely say that Versions is better, you were first to write a detailed explanation that justified WHY Versions is better. And you provided the example to show that a Don't Save could be implemented.


The journey and process can be learned and adapted to. The end result brings a lot of advantages that just weren't there before, but the journey needs some adaptation to get us there.


I don't put up with anything I consider sub-par. It is my greatest failing and one of my greatest strengths. I get to do research at levels that few people can because I see problems and solutions to things that others just accept and adapt to. Besides, did Steve Jobs settle for less? Great things happen when you don't comprise your principles.

Anyway, thanks for the Versions insight. That saves me a lot of worry over my data and documents.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 02:52 PM
It is corrupt if I go from USB stick to the next computer or if SugarSync syncs it to my other computers. Prior to Lion syncing was not a risk because I never saved documents that should not be saved.

Last nitpick : it's not corrupt. The data is still perfectly good and usuable, it just might not contain what you think it does on clients that don't support Lion's versions.

The tip is again to work off a local copy before moving it to a shared medium once you're satisfied with the changes. Anyway, this is a tip that applies to every system and every platform. Hitting CTRL-S or CMD-S can become a habit and you might "corrupt" (wrong word, overwrite is more proper) the data just with that quick stroke saving the changes you don't want saved.

That's why usually you have working documents and published documents. You should never work on the published set, only work on the working set. If you don't, your workflow might need some improving to add this sort of staging (in software, we have Development -> Testing -> Quality Assurance -> Production, something we call staging and use deployment technics to get from one to the other, insuring that unwanted "changes" stay in development and only wanted "Changes" make it all the way to production. If something slips out of development, Q&A or Testing catches it).


The developers aren't on the forums telling people that Versions is fine.

They are still the ones that implement it the way it is in their applications though. They are the best people to ask about implementation specifics and why they chose them. Most developers of software have feedback and support contact information to use to ask these kind of questions. Heck, if you're paying enough money for a support contract, you might even get them to modify some behavior (if your support contract includes RFCs as clauses to meet business needs).

klaxamazoo
Feb 19, 2012, 03:07 PM
Last nitpick : it's not corrupt. The data is still perfectly good and usuable, it just might not contain what you think it does on clients that don't support Lion's versions.

The tip is again to work off a local copy before moving it to a shared medium once you're satisfied with the changes. Anyway, this is a tip that applies to every system and every platform. Hitting CTRL-S or CMD-S can become a habit and you might "corrupt" (wrong word, overwrite is more proper) the data just with that quick stroke saving the changes you don't want saved.

That's why usually you have working documents and published documents. You should never work on the published set, only work on the working set. If you don't, your workflow might need some improving to add this sort of staging (in software, we have Development -> Testing -> Quality Assurance -> Production, something we call staging and use deployment technics to get from one to the other, insuring that unwanted "changes" stay in development and only wanted "Changes" make it all the way to production. If something slips out of development, Q&A or Testing catches it).




They are still the ones that implement it the way it is in their applications though. They are the best people to ask about implementation specifics and why they chose them. Most developers of software have feedback and support contact information to use to ask these kind of questions. Heck, if you're paying enough money for a support contract, you might even get them to modify some behavior (if your support contract includes RFCs as clauses to meet business needs).

I have backups of my most important processes and have working, submitted versions of documents. But I have 200 mB data files corrupted when the Lion Version of TextEdit crashed. Luckily I have a couple of backups, but this type of Crash = Corruption in something as simple as TextEdit was not something I had seen before.

I did contact Apple and spoke with an Engineer, supplied data, etc.

On the issue of working with Apple Developers, I have been unable to get an answer to things like "Don't Save" (which you just answered) or why MC doesn't at least fully expand the windows so that you can see the Content when you swipe up. I also can't get an answer as to how to see the content of more than one Space at a time. I've filed Bug Reports and submitted feedback. I get nothing back. I've looked at the Apple videos to see how they intended it, but those only show extremely low content examples with a few applications. MC with 40-60 windows just doesn't work as well as SL and I can only use my Macbook Air when I have limited Content needs.

For developers of the small applications I use, I get great feedback and I've seen the developers tell users in the forums what workflow they intended and why they chose that workflow over others. That type of support was one reason I use the Datagraph graphing framework in all my little research applications.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 04:37 PM
What's wrong with Apple IDs? Other than their failure to merge multiple accounts?

I much prefer to walk in, pay cash, and walk out - anonymously. The idea of Apple having all that private information - even if only to gain access to the OS, bothers me greatly.

Jagardn
Feb 19, 2012, 04:37 PM
What don't you like about it anyhow ? How is it different ? versions/autosave provides you the same functionality you had before, except in an automated way. But check this : Now instead of only having the last copy you saved, you have... well... all of them.

Autosave saves something it shouldn't have ? So what, versions has that copy you want. Save as ? Sure, duplicate and save will create a whole new copy and tree from the document you're working on.

It's all still there, with the added benefit of not losing work and always having more than 1 revision available.

Well put, I happen to like versions also. I switched to Pages and Numbers just for the Autosave feature.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 04:43 PM
I much prefer to walk in, pay cash, and walk out - anonymously. The idea of Apple having all that private information - even if only to gain access to the OS, bothers me greatly.

Your name, address and visa card number ? :rolleyes:

Never mail ordered anything in your life have you ?

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 04:47 PM
I much prefer to walk in, pay cash, and walk out - anonymously. The idea of Apple having all that private information - even if only to gain access to the OS, bothers me greatly.

Every bank, utility, online service/retailer, and many retail stores, store the same amount of information as Apple does; I don't see what makes them special. I take it you never order anything online, and only ever use Cash? Also, for what it's worth, digital distribution tends to make things cheaper and greener. I applaud the transition away from more conventional means. I too care about privacy, but banking information, as Apple stores, doesn't worry me much. The stuff Google and Facebook pull, well that's more open for debate.

Jagardn
Feb 19, 2012, 04:52 PM
Not a big deal, but details matter and without Steve Jobs around it looks like the details are slipping.

Autosave/Versions was around while Steve was still at Apple. Hell, it was probably his idea.

RamGuy
Feb 19, 2012, 05:02 PM
Software Update seems to be having some bugs.

First of, AppStore wont actually tell me anything about system updates until I actually launch it through the software update link the old fashion way. They it will automatically fire up AppStore and provide me with one line named OS X Update with three updates if I click "more".

But if I only launch AppStore itself and go to the update tab (without going through the old software update route) it will say everything is up-to-date.


And the update procedure seems bugged as well, it seems like Apple is embedding all system updates into one simple "update" click, and advanced users can click "more" and see details of all parts of the update and chose what they want to update, and what not to update. But for me clicking the primarily update button doesn't really seem to do anything as it wont trigger all the sub-updates to start installing so I have to actually click "more" and chose to install each update manually for anything to happen in the first place.

And oddly enough the installation doesn't seem to do anything either. I've got listed one HP Printer Software Update, one Thunderbolt Firmware Update and one Canon Printer Software Update and each time I hit the update button it will ask me for a restart, and upon restarting it will go into the regular OS X Installing Updates modus which takes just a few seconds, they it reboots with no sign of a firmware update and upon launching the software update again all the three updates remains in the list like none of them have gotten installed.


I have tried to update and install these updates five times in a row, but nothing seems to be happening.

notrack
Feb 19, 2012, 05:02 PM
Well, I'd like to chime in here. I am one of those who really dislikes this auto-save feature. Acutally I downgraded from SL to Lion because I wanted this feature. Autosave and Versions. Finally getting rid of those Document piles v1, v2, v3, v3.2.4 etc.

But my disapointment was great and I honestly hate this implementation. I think most of us agree that saving our hard work in real time is basically a good thing. But, it is poorly implemented. This is why I think so:

Firstly, we all know that it isn't about the fact that the features are available but about how they are designed. It's about simplicity and usablility.

My example would be: One single keyboard shortcut is the quickest and easiest way to place a copy of your file somewhere and directly continue working while the old file is automatically closed, since you usually don't need it anymore.

Secondly, I haven't seen any case of "forgotten savings", the user is always asked whether to keep the changes or not. Clicking "Don't save" instead of "Save" would be a more than rare occurence.

Additionally I would say the counts for theneed of not-saving are much higher than the counts for the human error of mixing up "Don't save" and "Save".

Thirdly, try to find the right version of your text- or spreadsheet-document in that tiny starwars window if you have more than half a page filled. Hope your overtime will be paid. :D

What I would rather like to see is a less radical approach. Documents could be saved as versions in the background, so if you really faceplant dogsh't with "Don't Save" or you have a power loss on your 16GB MacMini, you could get the backuped status in a timeline.

Just imagine Autosave saves comments that are not intended for the customer/friend/professor/etc... urgh...

But, again...

This won't happen because there is no "Save" on the iPad. And that's the reason why they killed it on the mac. (In the first place I thought they were just smoking the wrong stuff, but since Phil said they will introduce the iPad saving style on the Mac... well...) Hope they'll come up with some fancy ideas like selling the good old folder as "Location" or whatever.

I work with complex documents in Numbers and I frequently have to try some "what if this or that" (similar to the creatives with image editing). Sure there are workarounds like clicking the top bar menu or duplicating the file in advance. But all of that isn't the way of simplifying or getting the computer out of the way. It's just the opposite. Too much sacrifice for a tiny bit of security.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 05:17 PM
Your name, address and visa card number ? :rolleyes:

Never mail ordered anything in your life have you ?

No, and since I don't even live in America, why should my home address be required?

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:20 PM
Your name, address and visa card number ? :rolleyes:

Never mail ordered anything in your life have you ?

Actually, he only needs a name and address since the Apple store allows Gift cards that he can buy with cash. Oh, and Apple never verifies the addresses, nor do they ever send anything to it by mail, so it seems like an odd thing to complain about (especially since they don't share that info with anyone).

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 05:22 PM
My example would be: One single keyboard shortcut is the quickest and easiest way to place a copy of your file somewhere and directly continue working while the old file is automatically closed, since you usually don't need it anymore.

That's basically what you achieve with Duplicate, isn't it? Because you can totally set up a keyboard shortcut for that. Sure, in some cases it would be more convenient to "save as" or "save a copy", so adding more alternative ways of doing this would be helpful for sure. Though I don't think Apple will do that - to them, I speculate, the old way was Save As and the new way is Duplicate.

I work with complex documents in Numbers and I frequently have to try some "what if this or that" (similar to the creatives with image editing). Sure there are workarounds like clicking the top bar menu or duplicating the file in advance. But all of that isn't the way of simplifying or getting the computer out of the way. It's just the opposite. Too much sacrifice for a tiny bit of security.

In my view, that's exactly what Versions shines at. You can try out things, keep them if you like them and revert them if you don't. You can even keep a version with the changes in case you'll like them later. Or if you know in advance that you're not gonna keep them, again, you can duplicate - it can essentially be used as "don't save this", just with the annoyance of having an additional window floating around that you won't need.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:25 PM
No, and since I don't even live in America, why should my home address be required?

Forgive me but I don't understand this comment of yours. What does the country you live in have to do with it? Is it because there is no Apple store in your home country that you don't like Apple IDs?

Why should your address matter? There is a legal issue regarding the copyrights of the store content. Apple wants to make sure you are signing up for an Apple ID in the country you live in, otherwise they could get into legal trouble for distributing the content to you.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 05:25 PM
Every bank, utility, online service/retailer, and many retail stores, store the same amount of information as Apple does; I don't see what makes them special. I take it you never order anything online, and only ever use Cash? Also, for what it's worth, digital distribution tends to make things cheaper and greener. I applaud the transition away from more conventional means. I too care about privacy, but banking information, as Apple stores, doesn't worry me much. The stuff Google and Facebook pull, well that's more open for debate.

My bank, obviously has to have my details, as do utilities (though not my card No.) I don't use online services, and any retailer that wants my details doesn't get my business. Cash or B-Pay (utilities) is the way I do business.

The idea of taking Gaia into account is a non-issue.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:29 PM
My bank, obviously has to have my details, as do utilities (though not my card No.) I don't use online services, and any retailer that wants my details doesn't get my business. Cash or B-Pay (utilities) is the way I do business.

The idea of taking Gaia into account is a non-issue.

As I point out, Apple obviously needs some info, like your address, because of legal reasons. For example, Pandora is not allowed to stream content to Canadian users since they haven't paid the royalties within Canada (the canadian associations are demanding rates far too high). Asking you to give your address is a step to ensure you reside in the country whose's Apple store you desire to purchase from.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 05:30 PM
Actually, he only needs a name and address since the Apple store allows Gift cards that he can buy with cash. Oh, and Apple never verifies the addresses, nor do they ever send anything to it by mail, so it seems like an odd thing to complain about (especially since they don't share that info with anyone).

So why insist upon it being supplied?

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:31 PM
So why insist upon it being supplied?

Read my last two comments.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 05:36 PM
No, and since I don't even live in America, why should my home address be required?

Because that's how credit card companies authenticate purchases.

notrack
Feb 19, 2012, 05:37 PM
That's basically what you achieve with Duplicate, isn't it? Because you can totally set up a keyboard shortcut for that. Sure, in some cases it would be more convenient to "save as" or "save a copy", so adding more alternative ways of doing this would be helpful for sure. Though I don't think Apple will do that - to them, I speculate, the old way was Save As and the new way is Duplicate.



In my view, that's exactly what Versions shines at. You can try out things, keep them if you like them and revert them if you don't. You can even keep a version with the changes in case you'll like them later. Or if you know in advance that you're not gonna keep them, again, you can duplicate - it can essentially be used as "don't save this", just with the annoyance of having an additional window floating around that you won't need.

Yes, again, I don't doubt that all of that is possible and even more. Microsofties develop Office that way. But it's not the point for making progress on a mac. Save - yes or no. Enter or space bar. It can't get any simpler than that. As I said, autosave is welcome, but not with the cost of running through extra menus or star wars every time. For light users it may be a minor bump or even fun, but if you have to repeat that several times a day it's pretty anoying.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 05:39 PM
Forgive me but I don't understand this comment of yours. What does the country you live in have to do with it? Is it because there is no Apple store in your home country that you don't like Apple IDs?

Why should your address matter? There is a legal issue regarding the copyrights of the store content. Apple wants to make sure you are signing up for an Apple ID in the country you live in, otherwise they could get into legal trouble for distributing the content to you.

That is none of my concern. As for Apple stores, I only use resellers - less hassle.

Besides, I only mentioned ID because I didn't wish to go into the downsides of the whole download/install process, as well as the privacy issues. In sum, the app store is just not the kind of thing that I wish to be involved with.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 05:40 PM
Yes, again, I don't doubt that all of that is possible and even more. Microsofties develop Office that way. But it's not the point for making progress on a mac. Save - yes or no. Enter or space bar. It can't get any simpler than that. As I said, autosave is welcome, but not with the cost of running through extra menus or star wars every time. For light users it may be a minor bump or even fun, but if you have to repeat that several times a day it's pretty anoying.

There's no extra menus or Star wars all the time. If you click on Revert document, it asks you if you want to go back to your last manual save (a save point you created) and if that is the case, no need to go in the "Time Machine"-like UI.

I showed a screenshot of this on the last page.

And frankly, if you want to go back farther, well guess what, without Versions/Autosave it would not have been possible at all anyhow, so why are you complaining ?

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 05:45 PM
That is none of my concern. As for Apple stores, I only use resellers - less hassle.

Your licensing agreement is your concern, sorry to say.


Besides, I only mentioned ID because I didn't wish to go into the downsides of the whole download/install process, as well as the privacy issues. In sum, the app store is just not the kind of thing that I wish to be involved with.

I don't know what privacy issues there are, nor do I know what downsides you speak of. If it is a matter of speed/bandwidth, that seems to be a problem with your ISP provider, not Apple. But given your privacy concerns, I suspect you may only use internet cafe's since all other ISPs require your address and payment info, which is exactly what Apple asks for and which bothers you so greatly.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 05:55 PM
As I point out, Apple obviously needs some info, like your address, because of legal reasons. For example, Pandora is not allowed to stream content to Canadian users since they haven't paid the royalties within Canada (the canadian associations are demanding rates far too high). Asking you to give your address is a step to ensure you reside in the country whose's Apple store you desire to purchase from.

To clarify, I do not purchase from Apple stores, but resellers. I have not, and will not purchase any app from the app store, so why must I have to sign up just to get a new OS (or rip-off USB stick) and not even get a copy of the DMG, which I can install at my leisure? Heck, even SL denies me that option, but at least I can get updates through MacUpdate. Will that continue? Not according to Apple's statement that ML is app store only.

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Because that's how credit card companies authenticate purchases.

Can I use a gift card to pay for and download ML without an ID?

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 05:55 PM
Save - yes or no. Enter or space bar. It can't get any simpler than that. As I said, autosave is welcome, but not with the cost of running through extra menus or star wars every time.

Right. But in case you're stuck with Lion without liking it, there could be ways to adapt your workflow to be just as fast as before, depending on what you need to do. Like the problem with trying out different things can be solved without going through Star Wars, and even with keyboard shortcuts (if you set them up manually).

As for the human error of mixing up Don't Save and Save - I think the main concern is crashes and power outages. Though I really like that you can't lose your work by clicking the wrong button by accident with Lion's Autosave. Not that that ever happened to me, because I carefully read stuff before I click on buttons, but that can take time which could potentially be saved if there was no need to be so meticulous.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 06:03 PM
To clarify, I do not purchase from Apple stores, but resellers. I have not, and will not purchase any app from the app store, so why must I have to sign up just to get a new OS (or rip-off USB stick) and not even get a copy of the DMG, which I can install at my leisure?

Regarding the dmg, well there isn't a dmg anymore in their new structure, but there is a comparable installer embedded in the download, that you can readily extract and use to create copies of; you can also create your own usb installer stick. That hasn't changed in ML from Lion. So, strictly speaking, that is a non-issue.

Regarding having to sign up for an Apple ID to get the new OS. Well, Apple no longer wants to waste money packing, shipping, and burning disks to distribute their new OSs. They believe it is a waste of resources and environmentally unfriendly. Don't like their new policy? Fine, don't buy it. It strikes many of us as a sensible approach though.


Heck, even SL denies me that option, but at least I can get updates through MacUpdate. Will that continue? Not according to Apple's statement that ML is app store only.

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Smart way to crack down on piracy.


Can I use a gift card to pay for and download ML without an ID?

Nope, likely for licensing reasons as mentioned earlier. When you buy any software, the terms of agreement only apply to the country within which you buy it. So again, they need to make sure you have a country so that you are legally bound to the terms and conditions you agree to when you install the software. An Apple ID with a Gift card on it, but no address, would make you countryless, and therefore it wouldn't be possible to hold you legally accountable to the contract you agree to when you install the software.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 06:04 PM
Can I use a gift card to pay for and download ML without an ID?

Sure, just get a throw away e-mail, lie about your street address while creating a throw away ID and insert your gift card funds into it.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 06:04 PM
Your licensing agreement is your concern, sorry to say.



I don't know what privacy issues there are, nor do I know what downsides you speak of. If it is a matter of speed/bandwidth, that seems to be a problem with your ISP provider, not Apple. But given your privacy concerns, I suspect you may only use internet cafe's since all other ISPs require your address and payment info, which is exactly what Apple asks for and which bothers you so greatly.

Of course my ISP needs to know where I am, but that is an ongoing service - not a once in a blue moon situation. Besides, direct bank debit solves the problem of credit card privacy.

If Apple had not insisted upon app store only distribution of future OSs, this would not be an issue.

I want to download a DMG, install and reboot when I please, and save said DMG for possible re-installation. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 06:05 PM
Of course my ISP needs to know where I am, but that is an ongoing service - not a once in a blue moon situation. Besides, direct bank debit solves the problem of credit card privacy.

If Apple had not insisted upon app store only distribution of future OSs, this would not be an issue.

I want to download a DMG, install and reboot when I please, and save said DMG for possible re-installation. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Credit card privacy wha... ?

Apple knowing your credit card number (which you can remove and change at will in your profile) does not impact your privacy. Visa won't suddenly give them a list of your purchase history.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 06:09 PM
Sure, just get a throw away e-mail, lie about your street address while creating a throw away ID and insert your gift card funds into it.

What the hell? I once proposed something similar to you, and you were appalled. You didn't seem to appreciate someone recommending that you break the law, and made it clear you wouldn't do so. Yet here you seem to be abetting in a potential crime! Of course, your proposal works. I used to have Apple's HQ address for my US Apple ID. When I moved to the US, I was able to remove it :)

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I want to download a DMG, install and reboot when I please, and save said DMG for possible re-installation. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As I already said, this can easily be done (without DMGs), and is sanctioned by Apple themselves. So rather than complain, inform yourself better sir.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 06:14 PM
Regarding the dmg, well there isn't a dmg anymore in their new structure, but there is a comparable installer embedded in the download, that you can readily extract and use to create copies of; you can also create your own usb installer stick. That hasn't changed in ML from Lion. So, strictly speaking, that is a non-issue.

Regarding having to sign up for an Apple ID to get the new OS. Well, Apple no longer wants to waste money packing, shipping, and burning disks to distribute their new OSs. They believe it is a waste of resources and environmentally unfriendly. Don't like their new policy? Fine, don't buy it. It strikes many of us as a sensible approach though.



Smart way to crack down on piracy.



Nope, likely for licensing reasons as mentioned earlier. When you buy any software, the terms of agreement only apply to the country within which you buy it. So again, they need to make sure you have a country so that you are legally bound to the terms and conditions you agree to when you install the software. An Apple ID with a Gift card on it, but no address, would make you countryless, and therefore it wouldn't be possible to hold you legally accountable to the contract you agree to when you install the software.

Ok, if Apple is intent upon protecting licence agreements, that would be their right, and mine to not upgrade to future Apple HW, I guess.

As I said in my original post: all good things come to an end.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 06:17 PM
Ok, if Apple is intent upon protecting licence agreements, that would be their right, and mine to not upgrade to future Apple HW, I guess.

As I said in my original post: all good things come to an end.

Yep

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 06:21 PM
As I already said, this can easily be done (without DMGs), and is sanctioned by Apple themselves. So rather than complain, inform yourself better sir.

Agreed - providing that I download from the app store.

jpross123
Feb 19, 2012, 06:28 PM
I don't think I am going to spend the money for "updates" for my Macbook. These are things that should have been in Lion already IMO (Lion just came out less than a year ago!). Plus I do not like the idea of merging iOS and Mac OS. If I want to use iOS I use my iPad, if I want to use Mac OS I pull out my MacBook.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 06:28 PM
Agreed - providing that I download from the app store.

Right, therein lies the rub. They really are pushing the Apple ID thing and iCloud aggressively. I don't doubt there will be more people like you frustrated going forward.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 07:00 PM
What the hell? I once proposed something similar to you, and you were appalled. You didn't seem to appreciate someone recommending that you break the law, and made it clear you wouldn't do so. Yet here you seem to be abetting in a potential crime! Of course, your proposal works. I used to have Apple's HQ address for my US Apple ID. When I moved to the US, I was able to remove it :)

I wouldn't ever do it, but really, why would I care what laws you wish to break or not ? It's your life.

And I don't think I ever was appalled at such thing, either you misunderstood my post or are misremembering the poster in question.

JohnDoe98
Feb 19, 2012, 07:29 PM
I wouldn't ever do it, but really, why would I care what laws you wish to break or not ? It's your life.

And I don't think I ever was appalled at such thing, either you misunderstood my post or are misremembering the poster in question.

Perhaps my memory is faulty (either way, we need not resurrect the controversy of the abolishment of the family pack and its workarounds) ;).

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 07:46 PM
Perhaps my memory is faulty (either way, we need not resurrect the controversy of the abolishment of the family pack and its workarounds) ;).

Ah see that was for my own use. And you'll be happy to know my GF is still on Snow Leopard while my MBA is on Lion. ;)

As I've said, I wouldn't break the law, but if others do ? Don't know, don't care.

pmz
Feb 19, 2012, 08:08 PM
Of course my ISP needs to know where I am, but that is an ongoing service - not a once in a blue moon situation. Besides, direct bank debit solves the problem of credit card privacy.

If Apple had not insisted upon app store only distribution of future OSs, this would not be an issue.

I want to download a DMG, install and reboot when I please, and save said DMG for possible re-installation. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The correct answer to you is too frigging bad. Its one thing to be concerned about privacy, but there is also such a thing as "BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE."

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 09:11 PM
The correct answer to you is too frigging bad. Its one thing to be concerned about privacy, but there is also such a thing as "BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE."

Nope, the right tree. You, however, are free to howl at the moon if you wish.

pmz
Feb 19, 2012, 09:17 PM
I'm sorry but you really dont know what you're talking about. I don't know what you imagine you are protecting by not providing Apple with your address, or credit card information.

But are you aware that there are hundreds of millions of Apple ID holders out there, and not one has ever complained about being the victim of Apple-initiated fraud?

Thats something for you to consider.

Believe me, I wear a lot of hats, and I sympathize with your desire not to provide unneeded information for the sake of privacy and security...I believe in the very same things. I am however, mature and aware enough to know when it makes sense and when it does not. This is why I feel you are going out of your way to complain about something not worth complaining about.

OLDCODGER
Feb 19, 2012, 09:57 PM
I am however, mature and aware enough to know when it makes sense and when it does not. This is why I feel you are going out of your way to complain about something not worth complaining about.

Makes sense to whom? Apple, maybe, but not to someone who would only ever use it to purchase a new OS, between rare purchases of new HW, which would come pre-installed, I presume. (Updates are no problem, since there are alternative ways to get them).

It doesn't matter anyway, since this thread and its comments on auto-save and versions has convinced me to stay on SL as long as I can install on new HW (not Mac), and move fully to Ubuntu afterwards.

KingJosh
Feb 20, 2012, 04:26 PM
I am fairly keen to try ML (when I can be bothered to finish the download on my slow net) I will be putting it on a diff partition. I used to be a big Apple fan now not so much ever since the iOS integration i hate it launch pad mission control is never used. I love os x but if they really push the ipadness into the computers id have to go back to windows

koolmagicguy
Feb 20, 2012, 04:27 PM
I've been using Lion for only two months (as long as I've had my first MacBook Pro) and I'm very, very happy with it. I have an iPad 2 and an iPod touch 4 as well. Now, on portable devices that fit in your pocket, Twitter integration makes a lot of sense. I don't use Twitter that much but what the hell; it's optional. I can tell you right now that I'll never use Reminders or Twitter on my Mac. However, notification center will be a welcome addition as long as it works well and doesn't get in my face all the time. ;) I don't yet know what Game Center will be like, seeing as how there aren't too many Mac versions of iOS games yet. I doubt if RAGE and CoD would use it either. :P But if there aren't any big bugs to smash I'll be shelling out my 30 bucks as soon as it goes live.

northernbaldy
Apr 3, 2012, 01:19 PM
The most unstable mac os I have ever used

Sdreed91
Apr 3, 2012, 01:26 PM
The most unstable mac os I have ever used

It is a beta. Just saying

Mad Mac Maniac
Apr 5, 2012, 06:41 AM
The most unstable mac os I have ever used

It's so funny to hear people say polar opposite things...

azpc
Apr 5, 2012, 04:28 PM
Apple is so close to having a really fantastic operating system. The Mac is on the verge of making huge market share gains. Unfortunately, a few easily fixed issues are blocking wider acceptance.

Versions - Great Idea, implementation needs refinement

Versions needs to provide users with an option to change default behavior for specific apps. Versions can be useful in Pages or Numbers but it can be a real irritant in Preview. An option to change Versions default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. My clients and I would love to have the ability to turn off versions for several apps.

Restore Save As along with Save A Version - Save As did two things easily, new name, new location. The new system of Duplicate, Save A Version and Export is not as easy or useful as Save As. Windows switchers in particular are irate over the loss of Save As.

Resume Ė Good Idea, implementation needs refinement

Resume needs to provide users with an option to change default behavior for specific apps. Resume can be useful in Safari but it can be a real irritant in Preview or Quicktime. An option to change Resume's default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. Clients will be satisfied with the ability to turn off Resume. (What if payroll was the last document open)?

Please See:

http://www.reghardware.com/2011/09/07/apple_mac_os_x_lion_the_nanny_os/

Automatic Application Termination - modify implementation

Automatic Termination needs an option to change system wide default behavior. Automatic Application Termination might be useful for some users but it can be a real irritant for experienced users. Clients frequently open up programs such as Grab and Preview and switch to them as necessary via the dock or command tab. These programs frequently don't have an open window, however, they are used for a minute or two several times an hour.

When the application automatically terminates without user permission, it is the same to the user as an application crash!

Please See http://vimeo.com/34711608

Reopen Windows Next Time

Option in System Preferences to eliminate ďreopen windows next timeĒ. (Reduce the frustration of having to recheck this option each time the computer is restarted). It would be nice if Mountain Lion would allow users to permanently set preferences so the question never appeared.

AutoSave

Initially, my clients and I thought this feature was going to be great. However, we have discovered that we work with a lot of files that we don't always want to save. PDF files, experimental photo modifications, trial letters etc. We really don't want all of these extra files cluttering up our computers. AutoSave needs to provide users with an option to change the default behavior for specific apps. AutoSave can be useful in Pages or Numbers but it can be a real irritant in Preview. An option to change AutoSave default behavior for a specific app could be placed inside of Get Info. Clients will be satisfied with the ability to control AutoSave.

Restore option for colored icons in finder sidebar - Colored icons really help in providing tech support to clients.

Finder

Restore the option at the bottom of the finder window to show number of files selected and the Space available on the hard disk.

Restore Quick Look Ė zoom in on pdfs

Columns that resize properly in ďKind View".

Optional restoration of scroll arrows

This is a major issue when the computer requires small steady input - photo and video editing, spreadsheets, databases etc.

Please see https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3252617?start=0&tstart=0

Mouse Speed & Acceleration

Need an option to set both mouse pointer speed and acceleration curve. (Most frequent complaint I receive from former Windows users).

Green Zoom Button Behavior

Option in System Preferences to set Green Zoom button to Window Maximize - (Window fills screen except for Dock). As it stands now it is up to each developer how this function works therefore the behavior is very inconsistent.
Second most frequent complaint I receive from Windows switchers.

Client Comment:

"I have looked at the iMac carefully, as my kids have one at home. Even though I'd like to switch to Apple, I find two issues with the Mac unacceptable for my purposes .

The inability to fully maximize a program is irritating, as I am used to doing that regularly. Also the cursor movements with the mouse are too jerky. Unfortunately these 2 features will force me to continue down the Microsoft OS path."

haravikk
Apr 6, 2012, 06:58 AM
I'm curious about the behaviour of OS software updates through the Mac App Store; I'm maintaining my family computers but it's a bloody nightmare thanks to the Mac App Store constantly requiring Apple ID's to be entered for every simply update. If this is the future for system updates as well then it's going to be pretty grim.

I wouldn't mind so much if the updates are presented in the Mac App Store, but can still be downloaded automatically in the background, and installed by any suitable user without requiring an Apple ID every time, but if OS updates are going to be the same as app updates, then Mountain Lion is going to be horrible to run.

Updates are one of the few things that Windows does quite well; I'd love to just have everything download and install automatically (if selected of course) and only ever receive prompts if a restart is required (so long as I can choose to delay them).