PDA

View Full Version : I don't wan't OSX to be like iOS.




Pages : [1] 2

Skzerk
Feb 16, 2012, 09:34 PM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.



jackrv
Feb 16, 2012, 09:36 PM
Can you give some examples and explain why you feel the way you do about them? This is a discussion forum, there really wasn't much to go on from your original post.

Some more details might spark up other people's agreeing or dissenting opinions.

nostylluan
Feb 16, 2012, 09:38 PM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

BaldiMac
Feb 16, 2012, 09:38 PM
I'm so glad there is a thread about this. This point has been brought up ad nauseum today. I keep asking this question and can't seem to get answer... What features have been brought from iOS into ML that are bad for a desktop OS?

rorschach
Feb 16, 2012, 09:39 PM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.

Aside from Launchpad (which is completely optional), gestures (which are also completely optional), and possibly full-screen mode (again, optional), how do you think it feels like "a big iPad"?

I keep seeing people say this, but I have not seen any specific examples. Most issues with Lion are either changes that have nothing to do with making OS X more like iOS, or are bugs.

Kariya
Feb 16, 2012, 09:46 PM
Is it really like iOS though? They way i see it they want to unify OS X technologies across all platforms.

-Notifications on a desktop makes sense (Growl already did this).
-Integration with iCloud is simply the future.
-Messaging integration was long overdue. It was starting to fragment (iChat, Facetime, iMessage)
-Launchpad is just an app browser and you don't even have to use it. Ditto for scrolling, gestures etc.

I'm more worried with the direction MS is taking with Windows 8 as it seems they are actually trying to merge the desktop and mobile platform right down to the UI. Whereas Apple are just streamlining OS X, bringing useful mobile features into the desktop, and integrating with the cloud.

Granted it hasn't been error free but overall...

Can't say i really have too many objections.

PlaceofDis
Feb 16, 2012, 09:50 PM
i have yet to see anything thats bad thats being put into OS X from iOS. in fact i've really enjoyed Lion so far and can't wait for Mountain Lion.

burnout8488
Feb 16, 2012, 09:57 PM
I use all of iCloud's features frequently for school, and having everything effortlessly sync with my Mac has made things 100x easier for me.

I cannot wait to finally get my hands on Mountain Lion, as it seems the integration of iOS and Mac will finally be complete.

All of my documents, reminders... EVERYTHING is just "there" no matter what device I'm using, and that saves a ton of time. Mountain Lion improves upon this by adding an iOS-like Reminders app, and improving iWork apps to eliminate the need for visiting iCloud.com to sync files.

I picked up my iPhone in class today to edit a spreadsheet I had created on my iPad weeks ago.... then came home and worked on it some more on my Mac. Mountain Lion will make opening it even easier on the Mac, and I welcome that iOS-like change with open arms.

Are the iOS-like features going to hinder you in some way, or inhibit your productivity?? Or is your complaint simply out of the desire to not want change?

rorschach
Feb 16, 2012, 10:05 PM
Is it really like iOS though? They way i see it they want to unify OS X technologies across all platforms.

-Notifications on a desktop makes sense (Growl already did this).
-Integration with iCloud is simply the future.
-Messaging integration was long overdue. It was starting to fragment (iChat, Facetime, iMessage)
-Launchpad is just an app browser and you don't even have to use it. Ditto for scrolling, gestures etc.

I'm more worried with the direction MS is taking with Windows 8 as it seems they are actually trying to merge the desktop and mobile platform right down to the UI. Whereas Apple are just streamlining OS X, bringing useful mobile features into the desktop, and integrating with the cloud.

Granted it hasn't been error free but overall...

Can't say i really have too many objections.

Exactly. People were worried when they saw Launchpad in Lion because they thought, "Well maybe this is what OS X is going to become completely."

But Mountain Lion should nix those fears. Things like Notification Center, Reminders, Notes, Messages - these are examples of good, seamless integration.

Does anyone really think bringing Notification Center to OS X is a bad thing? Or that adding iMessage support to iChat (which is essentially all "Messages" does) is bad? Or more seamless iCloud document sharing is bad?

For the people who complain that "This should be 10.7.5" or the like: please say what incredible, mind-blowing features you'd like. The reality is that the Desktop has gotten to a point where there's not really much you can add.

Like it or not, the next decade for Apple is going to be all about seamless integration with all your devices. So it won't matter if you're on your Mac or your iPhone or your iPad because all your data will be on all your devices.

If you haven't caught on to this the last 2-3 years with everything Apple has been doing, you should see it now.

steviem
Feb 16, 2012, 10:11 PM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

I guess you haven't seen the Windows 8 dev preview. Either way, Apple isn't holding a gun to your head...

BaldiMac
Feb 16, 2012, 10:18 PM
I guess you haven't seen the Windows 8 dev preview. Either way, Apple isn't holding a gun to your head...

Exactly, Apple isn't the one pushing for one OS across all devices. They are the ones that recognized that an interface based on direct multitouch input is fundamentally different than the interface that you would use with mouse/trackpad input. These two things can't be combined. Switched between, maybe if you have a device that switches between input methods, but not combined.

Milltek
Feb 16, 2012, 10:30 PM
My personal feel is that a lot of the apprehension is the result of decades of listening to Microsoft schmoozing about the forthcoming "great thing" and the horrendous disappointment that almost always followed. It has created a very negative view of tech company promises.

So far Apple has surpassed my expectations. Hopefully they will continue to do so. They've earned some leeway. :)

MattInOz
Feb 16, 2012, 11:59 PM
I've yet to see a single thing in Lion and now Mountain Lion that if you didn't use an iOS device at all still isn't really helpful.

OK Launchpad, but that's much like dashboard it doesn't get in my way and I can just ignore both of them.

Improved Security - yep big tick and we've only seen the most obvious security improvement.

You also have to consider what we've seen today is really just the banner features. Over the months till it's released well get more and more details that will be the real improvements to the OS that help you get stuff done.

pmz
Feb 17, 2012, 12:15 AM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.

Why? what do you care? It does the same things its always done, more, and looks nicer.

What is your problem?

r0k
Feb 17, 2012, 12:20 AM
I really hate paging through dozens of pages of apps that aren't alphabetized and I must manually drag them around and organize them. I really hate doing without the ability to share files between apps on my iPad without making a copy of the file for each app that touches it. If sandboxed apps on OS X ML work the same way, I'd be very frustrated.

I'm not saying iOS is bad. I'm saying it doesn't fit my desktop workflow. The thing is, I think Apple would rather go after the millions of iOS faithful who might buy a Mac if they think it will be "the same" as their iOS device. And those guys don't have a workflow, except possibly on Windows. And I don't call what I do on Windows workflow. I think it's best referred to as suffering.

Then there's the whole hardware issue. I just upgraded hardware in mid 2011 so I'd be ready for Lion and now Apple tells me it's time to break out the checkbook again? So soon? You see I could get everything I needed to be Lion-ready from Crucial and OWC. But I can't ditch these Intel graphics without spending the BIG bucks so I'll probably be on the ML sidelines for quite some time. Not that I think I wouldn't like it. It's just about the cost of upgrading hardware twice in less than a year.

cocacolakid
Feb 17, 2012, 12:25 AM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

That's not what Apple wants nor what is going to happen.

rikscha
Feb 17, 2012, 05:58 AM
really tiring, if you dont want change and improvement in your OS, perfect, buy yourself a windows pc.

One of the reasons why I made a move to mac years ago, I was tired of working with basically the same OS for more than a decade.

It is important to further bring your devices closer together. apple is setting a pipeline and can very well see and define how computing will look like in 5+ years time. I'd say times running up for desktop PCs and laptops anyway. Apple is already building the foundation for that. It is a slow transition but an Air like mbp would definitely be a step towards that direction (this will obviously take at least another decade or so, referring to the end of desktop and laptops).

maflynn
Feb 17, 2012, 06:13 AM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS.
Fair enough, with Mountain Lion what specific feature that came from iOS are you complaining about. Admittedly I have not installed the OS yet, but now that my back is done I hope to do so.

Tom8
Feb 17, 2012, 06:17 AM
I keep seeing people complaining about iOS features coming to OS X and to be honest, i think they're missing the salient point.

With Mountain Lion Apple are NOT trying to turn OS X into iOS. They're not trying to merge the two systems, they're trying to integrate them. iCloud is the main go-between for this integration, with syncing across all devices. If you want to see an example of a company trying to merge their mobile and desktop OS's, look no further than Microsoft.

Jagardn
Feb 17, 2012, 06:25 AM
Man, this thread is not going the way I thought it would. :D

Tander
Feb 17, 2012, 06:40 AM
I for one welcome the integration. I cannot wait for ML to be released. I will also gladly pay the $29 upgrade fee, too.

I have an iPad 2 and a 2010 MacBook. Next will be an iPhone 4s or 5 depending on my upgrade options. The idea to have all these devices work together - with each other and simply syncing between everything is a fantastic one.

It will make life so much easier and I agree with the above - in a decade or so, I see the end of desktop PCs. They obviously will be around for much longer than that - but I don't see them going forward, like Apple is.

Microsofts idea of OS and Mobile OS into one form factor is not a great one IMHO.

Mr. Jobs once said that using a touch based OS on a laptop or desktop is not the way forward.

What Apple is doing is integrating the two. :cool:

cmChimera
Feb 17, 2012, 06:41 AM
Status Quo of whining: Apple has forgotten about the Mac, all they care about is the iPhone and the iPad. We're gonna never see updates, and OS X is be stagnant, and I'm going back to Windows.

Apple announces Mountain Lion, with lots of good features, and in the meantime promises yearly updates to the desktop OS.

Updated Whining: I hate this, they are adding in iOS features, I don't want a big iPad I want my life to be really hard, and not connected with mobile device at all. Yearly updates? That's too fast, that means the quality is going to be awful. Apple has forgotten what makes them good. SLOWNESS. No one wants to have a desktop OS that has large updates to increase functionality yearly, we want that to take huge amounts of time.

DeckMan
Feb 17, 2012, 07:10 AM
Then there's the whole hardware issue. I just upgraded hardware in mid 2011 so I'd be ready for Lion and now Apple tells me it's time to break out the checkbook again?

Wait, why would you need new hardware? I just installed Lion on my late '08 MacBook and I'm planning to do the same with Mountain Lion. Granted, I got a RAM upgrade after installing Lion, but that was necessary since Snow Leopard and probably just a sign of me using my Mac differently than I did my PC, with lots of open apps at once.

As for the dozens of pages of not-automatically-ordered apps and the sandboxing, I'm pretty sure that's not how it'll work - you can still keep your old ways of accessing apps, no need for using Launchpad, and the shared file system isn't going anywhere either.

Wicked1
Feb 17, 2012, 07:15 AM
iOS 6 will now be called Lion Cub since it is a slimmed down version :D

Funny they are pushing for a new OS this summer, I am still migrating from SL to Lion, by the time I am fully into Lion, ML will be out, whew I need coffee

innominato5090
Feb 17, 2012, 07:17 AM
Actually I'm quite happy with mountain lion… it really provides a tight integration with apple ecosystem (iCloud) without loosing the typical UI paradigm of a desktop OS.

r0k
Feb 17, 2012, 08:25 AM
Wait, why would you need new hardware? I just installed Lion on my late '08 MacBook and I'm planning to do the same with Mountain Lion. Granted, I got a RAM upgrade after installing Lion, but that was necessary since Snow Leopard and probably just a sign of me using my Mac differently than I did my PC, with lots of open apps at once.

As for the dozens of pages of not-automatically-ordered apps and the sandboxing, I'm pretty sure that's not how it'll work - you can still keep your old ways of accessing apps, no need for using Launchpad, and the shared file system isn't going anywhere either.

I agree that I don't have to use Launchpad. That's not an issue for me. I'm safely ignoring it now on Lion.

I upgraded 3 Mac minis to 2 GB of RAM in order to install Lion. These upgrades were relatively modest cost but I really should be able to get a few years' use without breaking out the checkbook again. This time I can't "upgrade" I must replace the machines and the old ones will have diminished value just like the pre-intel Macs began to have diminished value when Snow Leopard came out. In my case, I foolishly invested in SSD drives for the minis I upgraded and now I'll probably never recover the extra money I spent as those computers are rendered undesirable because they won't support Mountain Lion. I also upgraded my Macbook with a hybrid SSD and 4GB of RAM. I didn't have to in order to run Lion but I'd like to enjoy more than a year of ability to run the latest OS after spending over a hundred bucks per machine on upgrades whether they were necessary to run Lion (in the case of my older Intel minis) or not (in the case of my Macbook).

Apple practically has a license to print money these days so having two waves of "hardware bullying" only one year apart sounds almost Microsoft-like. I'd like to see an analysis of the issue that requires the GMA3100 chipset to be excluded from being able to run Mountain Lion. A small voice suggests to me this is more about pushing hardware sales than performance.

DeckMan
Feb 17, 2012, 08:31 AM
I'd like to see an analysis of the issue that requires the GMA3100 chipset to be excluded from being able to run Mountain Lion.

Oh okay, I just found out about that. I don't get that either. I hope there's some reason for it and it's not just to get people to buy new Macs.
That being said, since my MacBook is the oldest one that supports Mountain Lion, I'm afraid I likely won't be able to install OS X 10.9 Ocelot (or OS XI Velociraptor) on it..

maflynn
Feb 17, 2012, 08:33 AM
I agree that I don't have to use Launchpad. That's not an issue for me. I'm safely ignoring it now on Lion.
If managed, I think LaunchePad can be a useful tool. The problem is that apple does not give us the tools to manage it. I found some scripts to delete all the apps in launchpad and I only added a handful of apps I frequently use. These apps didn't make it into the dock but I use them enough that its helpful to have them in Launchpad.

I'm having disk issues that is preventing me from install ML on my computer as I'm in the middle of doing some backups right now, so I cannot comment on how Mountain Lion handles LaunchPad.

Chris230291
Feb 17, 2012, 08:40 AM
I dont mind the features, but i hate how they're making them look alike. I preferred Snow Leopard and how it looked.

You might be able to ignore features like launchpad, but i dont want that pointless ******** clogging up my computers. It looks tacky as **** (i really hate the folders) and is useless. :/

Apple need to leave iOS on iPhones and go back to making good stuff. The only reason im on lion is for compatibility, i pirated it anyways (**** you apple :) )

r0k
Feb 17, 2012, 08:53 AM
If managed, I think LaunchePad can be a useful tool. The problem is that apple does not give us the tools to manage it. I found some scripts to delete all the apps in launchpad and I only added a handful of apps I frequently use. These apps didn't make it into the dock but I use them enough that its helpful to have them in Launchpad.

I'm having disk issues that is preventing me from install ML on my computer as I'm in the middle of doing some backups right now, so I cannot comment on how Mountain Lion handles LaunchPad.

I wouldn't mind one bit if we could use finder to manage Launchpad. Moving apps into folders /Applications would make them show up in folders in launchpad. Moving apps into a folder called /Applications/hide would cause them to be omitted from Launchpad but you could still run them from Finder or Spotlight.

I think adding a layer of "meta data" (that is created and stored "somewhere" when you drag things around in Launchpad) when you already have a file system to manage apps is beginning to diverge from common sense. It seems that Apple is losing sight of the power of the Unix OS that sits underneath OSX and is relying too heavily on proprietary metadata rather than taking advantage of the filesystem as it exists today. One huge annoyance for me is the creation of .ds_store files. I really should be able to shut this off not only on network drives but on local folders as well. Piling layers upon layers of meta data and band aid dot files (like the ones that contain a tiny time machine backup for versions every file you touch) will ultimately slow down the OS. First with .ds_store, then with LaunchPad and now with .versions files Apple seems to be making war on the Unix filesystem and end users are the ones that stand to lose the battle if this goes unchecked.

miraclehobo
Feb 17, 2012, 08:54 AM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.

Wow if something like this "gnaws" at you, think you need to get a better life man. Get some real concerns and stop whining.

grrrz
Feb 17, 2012, 09:02 AM
Yep don't like where it is going either, with gatekeeper and everything.
Don't like Iphone/Ipad and apple's closed policy around it,
don't want my mac to become a game boy.
Too bad linux is still not a good alternative for my usage.
Still have snow leopard with very new macbook pro.
To be fair the option to choose different applications sources exists also in ubuntu (the repository system was the first "apps" system), you have to manually allow "other sources" for applications in the ui (can do anything in terminal anyway). same for android.

r0k
Feb 17, 2012, 09:23 AM
Yep don't like where it is going either, with gatekeeper and everything.
Don't like Iphone/Ipad and apple's closed policy around it,
don't want my mac to become a game boy.
Too bad linux is still not a good alternative for my usage.
Still have snow leopard with very new macbook pro.
To be fair the option to choose different applications sources exists also in ubuntu (the repository system was the first "apps" system), you have to manually allow "other sources" for applications in the ui (can do anything in terminal anyway). same for android.

I stopped using Ubuntu because I stopped using my Acer Netbook when I got my iPad. If I can't put ML on my old Macs and if I can't get good money for them if I sell them, perhaps I'll wind up loading Ubuntu on them one of these days.

Edit: I just noticed an article on MR front page saying that Apple sold more iOS devices in 2011 than they sold Macs in 30 years. Apple sold 156 million iOS devices in 2011 while they only sold 122 million Macs in 30 years. So while I might not be happy about OSX looking more and more like iOS, I can't blame Apple for following the money right now.

holden57
Feb 17, 2012, 12:24 PM
First with .ds_store, then with LaunchPad and now with .versions files Apple seems to be making war on the Unix filesystem and end users are the ones that stand to lose the battle if this goes unchecked.


Can you explain what you mean by this? This is an honest question too.

motorazr
Feb 17, 2012, 12:36 PM
i have yet to see anything thats bad thats being put into OS X from iOS. in fact i've really enjoyed Lion so far and can't wait for Mountain Lion.

I suppose nothing "bad" has come, minus a lack of some preferences here and there, or the ability to use "save as" quickly... but the app launch panel is more or less useless ... its just something pretty to look at. Why not just spotlight the name of your app in a second? Or open the applications folder? Or have an applications stack in the dock..?

Also, the scroll bars being gone from normal visibility is annoying on occasion when you need to grab them (as in, when a program has control of the mouse scrolling behavior on the web and you need to click and drag past a point ... good luck. you'll need to use the arrows to scroll and then you have a limited time to grab the bar. Or when you're on a HUGE page... do you really want to keep hitting space and risk missing something? Or how about scroll with inertia over and over ... it's easier to just grab and scroll at your pace, sometimes..

maflynn
Feb 17, 2012, 12:38 PM
Yep don't like where it is going either, with gatekeeper and everything.
I think the writing was on the wall, the instant apple announced the Mac Application store. They could not very well lock down the OS on day one, but now over time, they're making it quite obvious that if you want an app, it really needs to be coming from the MAS.

dugbug
Feb 17, 2012, 12:41 PM
I can't complain about ML but lets be fair and step back to look at some legit gripes about lion and the 'new apple' os x stuff that sort of built up this iOS reaction:


A strange out of place address book.
Launchpad. Why. God why.
airport utility. All the useful signal charts are gone and we get a strange stark big picture of the earth and a line, and then your router. Really. This is taking the worst of the windows 7 networking dialog and making it your primary interface.
Inverted scrolling (er. "natural" scrolling). Surprisingly I prefer it on trackpads now, but its jarring going back to a pc. Apple has balls man :apple:


Those have spurred countless blog articles about their out of place feel on a mac.

But then lion brought these and they greatly outweigh the iOS-ification:

File versions. Freaking amazing. Beautifully done, and the reason we upgraded (I just wish Xcode integrated with file versioning).
Finder merge vs copy
Mission Control and full screen apps. Anyone still miss spaces?


Im not seeing where ML has demoted anything Mac-ish Lion didn't already chip away at. The additions seem nice and lion as a serious platform has been wonderful. I think once we see it in a household working hand in hand with the owner's iPad we will get the direction apple is headed.

Just get rid of launchpad lol.

boilingpoint
Feb 17, 2012, 12:41 PM
(Mountain) Lion is not for Mac but for possibly future iPad running it. Think about dropping Mac from its name.

If you are a Mac user, SL is the best OS for your Mac. ;)

Apple should make future OSX to 1) support both mobile(like in * Lion) and desktop(like in * Leopard) mode, and 2) switch its operation mode between modes as user wants.

rprebel
Feb 17, 2012, 01:04 PM
Screw this, I'm going back to System 7.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

PlaceofDis
Feb 17, 2012, 01:15 PM
i really don't understand the hate for launchpad. if you don't like it you don't have to use it, but i find having it set to a hot corner or gesture makes it incredibly easy to use. i hated navigating though the finder and a stack was a pain too. things feel more organized to me now.

dugbug
Feb 17, 2012, 01:26 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

i really don't understand the hate for launchpad. if you don't like it you don't have to use it, but i find having it set to a hot corner or gesture makes it incredibly easy to use. i hated navigating though the finder and a stack was a pain too. things feel more organized to me now.

As a favorites container launched by gesture that's good. But organizing by the whole wiggly icon and dragging from page to page is odd don't you think?

stewacide
Feb 17, 2012, 01:32 PM
Really starting to worry that ML will go too far in terms of automatic no-opt-out hand holding - versions, restore states, forced app store, etc. - and force me to give up on OSX (which I've used happily since the beginning) in order to remain productive and keep my hair. Linux increasingly seems like the best option for anyone who knows how a computer works and doesn't need the OS second-guessing everything they do.

rorschach
Feb 17, 2012, 01:37 PM
Really starting to worry that ML will go too far in terms of automatic no-opt-out hand holding - versions, restore states, forced app store, etc. - and force me to give up on OSX (which I've used happily since the beginning) in order to remain productive and keep my hair. Linux increasingly seems like the best option for anyone who knows how a computer works and doesn't need the OS second-guessing everything they do.

ML is actually a step away from a "forced App Store" model by giving users more control over the apps that are allowed to run.

dugbug
Feb 17, 2012, 03:02 PM
Really starting to worry that ML will go too far in terms of automatic no-opt-out hand holding - versions, restore states, forced app store, etc. - and force me to give up on OSX (which I've used happily since the beginning) in order to remain productive and keep my hair. Linux increasingly seems like the best option for anyone who knows how a computer works and doesn't need the OS second-guessing everything they do.

Linux!??? God thats like eating sand :)

There have been a few good articles on Gatekeeper, which I think is one of your main concerns (and a curiosity of mine). Ill point you to a good one:
http://www.macworld.com/article/165408/2012/02/mountain_lion_hands_on_with_gatekeeper.html

To the end user Its nothing more than a one-time dialog the first time you run an app almost identical to the 'you sure? this was downloaded from the internet!' one we have now. Far from a forced app store

heimbachae
Feb 17, 2012, 03:08 PM
i know what OS 10.9 will be called :D
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af210/punkdude4awhyle/cowardlylion.jpg

brdeveloper
Feb 17, 2012, 04:02 PM
If Apple does it right, iOSX on Macs will look like iOS and work like OSX.

On the other hand, iOSX on tablets and phones will look like iOS and work like a jailed OSX without all the BSD support tools and not allowing installation of non-signed apps.

nuckinfutz
Feb 17, 2012, 05:50 PM
Really starting to worry that ML will go too far in terms of automatic no-opt-out hand holding - versions, restore states, forced app store, etc. - and force me to give up on OSX (which I've used happily since the beginning) in order to remain productive and keep my hair. Linux increasingly seems like the best option for anyone who knows how a computer works and doesn't need the OS second-guessing everything they do.

I'd contend that you don't know how your computer works and that your desire to manage everything is born from the same desire that manager have to micromanage their underlings. At some point you have to trust the computer to do what it's told and move on to other areas that you can be productive in.

Part of what we bring as intelligent being is the ability to know when the tool in our hand is "better" than what we bring.

Honestly if Linux was a great OS it would be dominant.

Lonectzn
Feb 17, 2012, 09:02 PM
I really don't like it.

Not because of the things they've added, but because of the things they keep ignoring.

Apple seem to be showing no interest in making OS X a productive operating system on screens 15 inches and above. They have some great features for smaller screens - I would even say they have the best operating system for resolutions 1440x900 and smaller.

However, on large resolutions OS X falls behind. It doesn't scale well, and does nothing to support multitasking, in fact most of the recent enhancements have been to support single task workflows on small screens. There's something comical about seeing launchpad on a 27 inch imac stretch itself across the screen with huge icons, or the ridiculous amount of wasted space in safari full screen mode.

In this regard, Windows 7 is far better. For screens 1920x1080 and above it is light years ahead of OS X, especially when considered for productivity features and multitasking. Windows and Linux get a lot more airtime on my 27 inch iMac, just because how bad OS X is at that resolution.

It's just disappointing to me that Apple aren't showing an interest in catching up.

KnightWRX
Feb 17, 2012, 09:06 PM
I really don't like it.

Not because of the things they've added, but because of the things they keep ignoring.

Apple seem to be showing no interest in making OS X a productive operating system on screens 15 inches and above. They have some great features for smaller screens - I would even say they have the best operating system for resolutions 1440x900 and smaller.

However, on large resolutions OS X falls behind. It doesn't scale well, and does nothing to support multitasking, in fact most of the recent enhancements have been to support single task workflows on small screens. There's something comical about seeing launchpad on a 27 inch imac stretch itself across the screen with huge icons, or the ridiculous amount of wasted space in safari full screen mode.

In this regard, Windows 7 is far better. For screens 1920x1080 and above it is light years ahead of OS X, especially when considered for productivity features and multitasking. Windows and Linux get a lot more airtime on my 27 inch iMac, just because how bad OS X is at that resolution.

It's just disappointing to me that Apple aren't showing an interest in catching up.

Uh ? OS X works great on my 2048x1156 monitor. I can multi-task just fine on it, in fact, with that resolution, it's easy to have windows sitting next to each other. Not to mention using my MBA's internal screen as a 2nd monitor, I can display even more stuff all at the same time, organize my workflow by desktops (Xcode and documentation on desktop 2, browser and media on desktop 1, graphic and design tools on desktop 3) and switching between them is easy with the new gestures, or good old CMD->arrow.

waynep
Feb 17, 2012, 10:20 PM
I really don't like it.

Not because of the things they've added, but because of the things they keep ignoring.

Apple seem to be showing no interest in making OS X a productive operating system on screens 15 inches and above. They have some great features for smaller screens - I would even say they have the best operating system for resolutions 1440x900 and smaller.

However, on large resolutions OS X falls behind. It doesn't scale well, and does nothing to support multitasking, in fact most of the recent enhancements have been to support single task workflows on small screens. There's something comical about seeing launchpad on a 27 inch imac stretch itself across the screen with huge icons, or the ridiculous amount of wasted space in safari full screen mode.

In this regard, Windows 7 is far better. For screens 1920x1080 and above it is light years ahead of OS X, especially when considered for productivity features and multitasking. Windows and Linux get a lot more airtime on my 27 inch iMac, just because how bad OS X is at that resolution.

It's just disappointing to me that Apple aren't showing an interest in catching up.

You gotta be joking? I have a 17" MBP at 1920x1200. It's great on that size screen. I can have side by side windows. Yes some apps are not made to be full screen with that much resolution. Web sites are not optimized for a 1920 pixel wide window . . They are made for half that so yes, Safari will have white space around the web page. It's the web page design, not that safari does not scale . . . Launchpad? Yea the icons are bigger than a iPad . . so what? Launchpad icon size is not an indication of scaling well . . that's just nit picking about little things that are not that important.

It's about working and getting my tasks done. I put Safari on the left, Mail on the right and everything else is sitting hidden behind those two unless I am actively working on something else.

stevemiller
Feb 17, 2012, 10:34 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Uhh.. And what happens to your giant secondary monitor when you put an app in full screen mode? A giant expanse of linen.

Also, try using mission control with applications that have more than 3 windows. Mission control stacks windows in a way that makes it useless as the content overview mechanism it claims to be. If you like swiping through desktops for fun I guess it's great, but I can't see a functional advantage over just clicking the damn dock icon for the program you want.

A lot of people seem to think people who are frustrated are just old sticklers who want things to be harder, but it's the opposite, by perpetually pushing paradigms intended for mobile OSs, tasks are getting harder because we're being forced to pretend we are limited by mobile OS restrictions. Launchpad's managent scheme of press and hold to enter "wiggle mode" and then drag icons one by one is as damning proof as you can get for the fundamental flaw of trying to make your desktop act like a small touchscreen

Zwhaler
Feb 17, 2012, 10:52 PM
I agree with OP.

One observation:

I noticed that Lion/ML is a more seamless experience when using the Magic Trackpad or Multitouch Trackpad on one of the new laptops, that way the "Mission Control" and other features are programmed as multi touch gestures. Doesn't feel as fluid on a mouse. I strongly believe that Snow Leopard is better for who are using a mouse and not trackpad. Think about it, iOS runs exclusively on Multi-touch devices and the gestures between the Mac lineup and iDevice lineup are becoming more and more similar!

Tmelon
Feb 17, 2012, 10:55 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Uhh.. And what happens to your giant secondary monitor when you put an app in full screen mode? A giant expanse of linen.

Also, try using mission control with applications that have more than 3 windows. Mission control stacks windows in a way that makes it useless as the content overview mechanism it claims to be. If you like swiping through desktops for fun I guess it's great, but I can't see a functional advantage over just clicking the damn dock icon for the program you want.

A lot of people seem to think people who are frustrated are just old sticklers who want things to be harder, but it's the opposite, by perpetually pushing paradigms intended for mobile OSs, tasks are getting harder because we're being forced to pretend we are limited by mobile OS restrictions. Launchpad's managent scheme of press and hold to enter "wiggle mode" and then drag icons one by one is as damning proof as you can get for the fundamental flaw of trying to make your desktop act like a small touchscreen

If you don't like them then don't use them. It's really as simple as that.

A Macbook Pro
Feb 17, 2012, 11:16 PM
All Apple have done is added some great iOS features, they haven't replaced anything. Game center, messages, notifications etc all make the Mac much more user friendly but don't need to be touched if you don't want to! My only gripe is gatekeeper, people are saying you can turn it off but yes, that is how it is for now. Just like SOPA, which on paper seems good, once it goes into effect it will change the internet forever.

chrono1081
Feb 17, 2012, 11:21 PM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.

Where do you get that they are copies? Just because a few well liked features from iOS came to Mac OS doesn't mean its a copy.

Remember, iOS took a lot more from Mac OS (such as the ability to run apps and not be just a phone).

Your computer will not feel like a big iPad, it'll operate the exact same way, just with some added features to keep your information on both machines in sync.

stevemiller
Feb 18, 2012, 12:07 AM
If you don't like them then don't use them. It's really as simple as that.

not as simple as that. mission control isn't an "extra" that you can ignore. it completely replaced expose and spaces with an implementation that makes things harder to find if you have more than a few things open.

Lonectzn
Feb 18, 2012, 12:39 AM
You gotta be joking? I have a 17" MBP at 1920x1200. It's great on that size screen. I can have side by side windows. Yes some apps are not made to be full screen with that much resolution. Web sites are not optimized for a 1920 pixel wide window . . They are made for half that so yes, Safari will have white space around the web page. It's the web page design, not that safari does not scale . . . Launchpad? Yea the icons are bigger than a iPad . . so what? Launchpad icon size is not an indication of scaling well . . that's just nit picking about little things that are not that important.

It's about working and getting my tasks done. I put Safari on the left, Mail on the right and everything else is sitting hidden behind those two unless I am actively working on something else.

The issue is that OS X doesn't actually do anything to help you work with higher resolutions. There aren't any helpful functions for dealing with multiple windows or multiple monitors.

Yes you can put windows next to each other manually. However Windows 7 has Aero Snap, making window management really easy. OS X doesn't have anything, although third party tools like Moom are available.

There's many small things like this. A larger screen has the potential to be much more productive (as in help users do their jobs quicker) than a smaller screen, by being able to present more information and cut down on time spent switching windows.

Mission control, full screen, launchpad... it's all well to say 'don't use it if you don't like it', but a good operating system should try to find ways to help you work more efficiently. Apple know this - after all, they wrote those applications to make small screens more usable. It just seems they're putting all their effort on small screens at the expense of large resolution and multiple monitor groups.

That was my point - there's much that could be done, but they're not doing anything and are already far behind Microsoft in this area. The fact that Apple is now taking all its design cues from a 10 inch optimised OS is not comforting.

throAU
Feb 18, 2012, 12:52 AM
First some background; I've been a unix network admin since 1996. I've been into computers in various forms since 1986.

I've owned PCs, Amigas, a couple of the old 8 bit machines, and run both Linux and FreeBSD exclusively on my PCs for a couple of years.

I am, what you'd call, a nerd. A power user.

I don't mind where OS X is going. I was dubious of the iOS features at first in lion, but I actually like it.

The gestures are awesome. Versions is pretty seamless, and HAS helped me to not have to re-do work due to the auto versioning.

And, having the option to limit your mac to signed code is going to be a god-send for those who are the family nerd and are going to be the one to fix machines infested with malware, when it happens. Yes, we don't have any malware to speak of on the mac yet, the option to run only signed code will help keep it that way.

Launchpad? I removed it from the dock. However, if you have a trackpad, its actually half decent. I have cut down a whole heap of junk off my dock, and can easily launch apps with a 5 finger pinch, from anywhere.

In short: after a few months, i've actually started using launchpad regularly (i used to just use spotlight).


There's been nothing of note removed from OS X - it is no less capable than before.

There's simply stuff to help you get things done easier, and prevent you from having to worry about backing up, etc.

Dumb repetitive boring tasks (like file version management, backups, etc) are what computer excel at. I don't want to have to care about backing my stuff up and saving multiple versions of a file in case i need to go back. The computer can do that for me.

I think a large number of those bitching about the changes are just set in their ways and wanting to control everything on their machine too much. But the thing is, you don't have to. Ask yourself - why do you care? I'm sure you have more important things to be worrying/thinking about.

De-stress, take a step back, and worry about more important stuff. Let the machine take care of it.

That is the point of these changes, and if you accept them for what they are, you'll be a lot happier about it and more productive. If apple can pull it off (and i think they've done a good job so far in Lion), your time is better spent thinking about other things.



edit:
i agree, on 2 monitors, full screen mode in lion is retarded. don't like it? don't run full screen with two monitors, and you're back to where snow leopard is. no big deal. however when i'm working without my second monitor on my MBP, full screen is useful. So....

nuckinfutz
Feb 18, 2012, 12:57 AM
It's more likely that Apple has superior market data about how people are using their computers than the typical person.

I think multi monitor setups outside of the professional arena are diminishing and larger monitors are becoming popular. The 27" iMac has sold very well and customers often like the expanse of contiguous screen.

Lion remembers the layout of your apps which I believe Apple feels is more important than simply filling an area 50% with a window. The OS remember how I like the dimensions and location of my Address Book and other windowed items is a godsend to those fastidious computing users who will layout their spaces appropriately.

Lastly the ability to quickly and smoothly zoom text using a gesture makes up for the lack of resolution independence IMO.

Lonectzn
Feb 18, 2012, 01:13 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)
A lot of people seem to think people who are frustrated are just old sticklers who want things to be harder, but it's the opposite, by perpetually pushing paradigms intended for mobile OSs, tasks are getting harder because we're being forced to pretend we are limited by mobile OS restrictions. Launchpad's managent scheme of press and hold to enter "wiggle mode" and then drag icons one by one is as damning proof as you can get for the fundamental flaw of trying to make your desktop act like a small touchscreen

The concerning thing is that they seem to either be uninterested or no longer capable of thinking creatively about mac UX issues. The design of launchpad especially shows Apple's decision that it is more important for it to be the same everywhere, than for it to work well everywhere. Their advertising and the ML additions seem to follow the same mindset.

----------

etc
Well, I'm not saying they're removing things or forcing me to do anything different than I did before. That's certainly untrue. They're just not making it any better on large screens. It's merely stagnant.

I just think Windows 7 does a much better job in that particular area, and it's a shame Apple aren't trying to catch up. The reference to this update and the last one, is to point out how much work they are putting on smaller screens, compared to the little attention the rest of the resolution spectrum receives.

Yumunum
Feb 18, 2012, 01:20 AM
The features in Mountain Lion are good...

Right now we have bad implementation of Notes, Reminders, ect. You're just getting better tools for these things.

Notification center = good. It notifies you about important things. You can always adjust settings for this, too.


Explain to me, what's the problem?

throAU
Feb 18, 2012, 02:06 AM
Well, I'm not saying they're removing things or forcing me to do anything different than I did before. That's certainly untrue. They're just not making it any better on large screens. It's merely stagnant.


I suspect ML or its successor will fix that.

There's been the beginnings of resolution independence in OS X for some time. The retina display, I am willing to bet, will be the catalyst for true resolution independence coming to OS X.

I mean, if they DON'T get it right, a 15" Macbook running something like 2560x1566 is going to be totally unusable.

NZPilgrim
Feb 18, 2012, 03:19 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Also, try using mission control with applications that have more than 3 windows. Mission control stacks windows in a way that makes it useless as the content overview mechanism it claims to be. If you like swiping through desktops for fun I guess it's great, but I can't see a functional advantage over just clicking the damn dock icon for the program you want.

I realise that in Lion it takes a couple of extra steps but I keep seeing people say that the windows are stacked and that you can't easily select the one you want, when in fact you can.

4 finger swipe up to access mission control.
Select the top most window of the app you want (regardless if it's the actual window you want).
4 finger swipe down and all windows of that app type are arranged in a grid pattern with no overlapping and easy to see labels.

In fairness I've never used Snow Leopard in any meaningful way so I haven't had any exposure to spaces and expose. I just think that maybe mission control isn't as 'broken' as some people make it out to be.

DigitalFreedom
Feb 18, 2012, 03:40 AM
First.. I know there are many Apple fanboys on this forum, who will defend any step Apple does. I am not interested to get any comments from non-adequate fans. But there are other people who were happy to have OS X as a great alternative to crippled MS Windows.

I did like OS X as it had a great feeling of freedom and simplicity for developing and using software. And now, when Steve is gone, they are starting to kill this unique atmosphere with their attempts to lock the system down and make their expensive and powerful computers just another proprietary and locked entertainment system.

Please do not tell me "Apple will never do that" or "You can disable those restrictions" etc. It's OBVIOUS that Apple is pushing the closed system approach with GateKeeper in OS X.

What do you think about this picture?

http://gizmodo.com/5885837/this-is-how-apple-will-block-unapproved-apps-with-mountain-lions-gatekeeper

That is scary (especially for developers who don't get a chance to be approved by Apple) and is the first sign of a total control. Of course, they cannot force a total control immediately cause they'll get flooded with court cases. BUT!
They will try to push developers and users as much as they can to use AppStore, which is a form of closed and restricted system.

I know it's fine for many MacRumors visitors , but I don't want to convert my Mac in a powerful iPad version. I already have an iPad for entertainment and mobile online activities and it's enough for me.

Apple, please don't make Mac os X a victim of your greed and DRM restrictions! This system was so good to make it locked! And it's based on open-source software. You just have no moral rights to close it and even to attempt to control it fully!

And don't tell me it's about security - it's not. It's all about 30% commission they earn from every app sold and about Apple stock graphs their management is watching daily.

Fans, you can write your usual comments. I know you'll say "don't use it if you don't like it, get away from Apple". That's all you can say.

nuckinfutz
Feb 18, 2012, 03:48 AM
So you've got 4 posts which most are all spamming the same message

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=14337159&postcount=233

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=14337103&postcount=176

Your arguments are filled with straw-man arguments and conjecture. Your attitude is derisive of anyone that disagrees with you. There's no point in engaging you on this subject. You're going to believe what you want to believe.

DigitalFreedom
Feb 18, 2012, 03:56 AM
oh, so fast angry fans are here. as usual, no any real arguments but just hate. I want to hear from people who are concerned with my issue (as its real and matters for the industry) and not from crazy fanboys who are just consumers.

MartiNZ
Feb 18, 2012, 03:58 AM
I dont mind the features, but i hate how they're making them look alike. I preferred Snow Leopard and how it looked.

You might be able to ignore features like launchpad, but i dont want that pointless ******** clogging up my computers. It looks tacky as **** (i really hate the folders) and is useless. :/

Apple need to leave iOS on iPhones and go back to making good stuff. The only reason im on lion is for compatibility, i pirated it anyways (**** you apple :) )

LOL without the malice albeit checked with smileys, you're right about the looks. For years Apple selectively ignored its own human interface guidelines, but with each iteration of OS X we did tend to get closer and closer to a consistent GUI. With Snow Leopard we really only had the iTunes vs Aqua scrollbars left to standardise. For some reason they decided in Leopard to make menus white on black when coming from the Dock, but we got over that one. Dashboard was always safely hidden away to do (or more likely not do) its own thing.

Then came the Mac App Store and its non-standard titlebar, which was really just a sign of the ugliness to come - Lion's Address Book and iCal, and now ML's host of other iOS ports. They never did do a good job of leading by example, ever since the mess of AppleWorks for OS X, but now devs must think they have all the freedom they like ... à la windows and one of those things we used to be able to mock them for. Now the shoe fits the other foot pretty well, and I'm really enjoying Windows 7!

THAT is what concerns me as iOSification, as do features like autosave/versions, which I guess makes sense when you can't access the file system, but is just a bag of hurt™ when you are actually trying to do traditional file manipulation on a desktop device. I just cannot push that point enough.

nuckinfutz
Feb 18, 2012, 04:19 AM
What on Heaven's Earth are you talking about?

Versions is OS X Lion only which exposes every bit of the filesystem. Auto Save works on both iOS and OS X

Monolithic UI isn't a good thing always. What people meant when they talked about the standard UI conventions wasn't duplicating everything down the to the UI element but rather a Mac user new they'd always have a selection of menu choices from the menu bar. They didn't have to go to different places to quit or save a document. It was all there in the menu bar.

Now Apple is focusing on cleaning up the toolbars a bit and making it easy to use an iOS and OS X device without being confused.

Fabricman112
Feb 18, 2012, 04:38 AM
we need an OS X Pro with options to turn "features" on/off :cool:

macmongral
Feb 18, 2012, 04:47 AM
one point to consider


If you do not like do not buy it , stay as you are and enjoy the OS you have

good grief if we did not change we would still be using DOS with a tape drive or UNIX command line

heimbachae
Feb 18, 2012, 05:11 AM
one point to consider


If you do not like do not buy it , stay as you are and enjoy the OS you have

good grief if we did not change we would still be using DOS with a tape drive or UNIX command line

SL user checking in here. and i like it!

bbnck
Feb 18, 2012, 05:13 AM
Is it really like iOS though? They way i see it they want to unify OS X technologies across all platforms.

-Notifications on a desktop makes sense (Growl already did this).
-Integration with iCloud is simply the future.
-Messaging integration was long overdue. It was starting to fragment (iChat, Facetime, iMessage)
-Launchpad is just an app browser and you don't even have to use it. Ditto for scrolling, gestures etc.

I'm more worried with the direction MS is taking with Windows 8 as it seems they are actually trying to merge the desktop and mobile platform right down to the UI. Whereas Apple are just streamlining OS X, bringing useful mobile features into the desktop, and integrating with the cloud.

Granted it hasn't been error free but overall...

Can't say i really have too many objections.

I agree. While I think Windows 8 seems like a great idea personally and should do well, I don't personally like the thought of getting apps exclusively from the Windows Store (Metro apps, anyway). I don't want Microsoft to be the sole arbiter as to what Metro apps I can and cannot install, because eventually most apps will inevitable be Metro apps.

I don't think Apple are going in the same direction, instead they are making using Macs safer with their Gatekeeper feature in OS X Mountain Lion where by default, you are more safe from malware because any apps that are installed and launched are going to be from recognised developers through the Mac App Store or apps available outside of the Mac App Store that are digitally signed by the developer. But for others, you can easily "disable" Gatekeeper if you don't like it being enabled. And if you want to install and launch an app that isn't digitally signed and also not available in the Mac App Store but you have the default Gatekeeper setting, as it says on the OS X Mountain Lion security page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/mountain-lion/security.html), "You can even temporarily override your setting by Control-clicking, and install any app at any time."

I have to admit, I too am concerned Apple may cross the line and make apps installable that have only been either digitally signed or are available through the Mac App Store (in future versions of OS X, anyway). You'd think Apple wouldn't do this but they may do in order to protect the end user. But thinking about it, there probably is a better way to do it while not restricting technically-inclined users and those that don't want to be restricted in such a way, and I think Apple has done the right approach with Gatekeeper. If people install malware on OS X Mountain Lion, it is essentially going to be their fault because they would of likely changed the default settings for Gatekeeper (or overridden them temporarily). And really, I don't think Apple will go that "step too far"; I don't think they intend to do so.

I just hope Apple doesn't go any further with Gatekeeper; I think it's perfect as it currently stands, and I actually think it's a good feature to protect us from installing malware while giving us power to override if we need to do so. iOS is after all a mobile platform, whereas OS X isn't. I'm sure Apple won't make OS X like iOS in regards to the curated platform and "locked down" experience, where apps can only be installed that are made available through the App Store. I like the thought of having certain iOS features on OS X (and obviously redone for a desktop operating system), and Apple has definitely promised that with the useful new features in OS X such as Notification Centre, which seems great.

adztaylor
Feb 18, 2012, 05:31 AM
Is it really like iOS though? They way i see it they want to unify OS X technologies across all platforms.

-Notifications on a desktop makes sense (Growl already did this).
-Integration with iCloud is simply the future.
-Messaging integration was long overdue. It was starting to fragment (iChat, Facetime, iMessage)
-Launchpad is just an app browser and you don't even have to use it. Ditto for scrolling, gestures etc.

I'm more worried with the direction MS is taking with Windows 8 as it seems they are actually trying to merge the desktop and mobile platform right down to the UI. Whereas Apple are just streamlining OS X, bringing useful mobile features into the desktop, and integrating with the cloud.

Granted it hasn't been error free but overall...

Can't say i really have too many objections.

This. Spot on.

Azathoth
Feb 18, 2012, 05:43 AM
My personal feel is that a lot of the apprehension is the result of decades of listening to Microsoft schmoozing about the forthcoming "great thing" and the horrendous disappointment that almost always followed. It has created a very negative view of tech company promises.


Well I found iCloud confusing, overhyped and ultimately useless, and many professional OS X aficionados (Andy Ithnanko, John Siracusa (sic)) agreed on points one and two.

Versions and autosave has also caused the company I work for to almost ban new macs (the founder was a big Apple fan since the 90s) - due to the way is messes up stuff on non-HFS partitions.

Fullscreen apps are useless for working with dual monitor setups.

So Apple can also do things wrong.


I dont see why I should have my OS integrating with the social network-du-jour. They should devote developer time to fixing omissions and OS weaknesses, not adding auto-tweet functionality.

maflynn
Feb 18, 2012, 06:12 AM
So Apple can also do things wrong.

Of course they can, but I think iCloud is moving in the right direction, especially with ML now. Back in its prior incarnation - mobileme it was not moving in the right direction.


I dont see why I should have my OS integrating with the social network-du-jour. They should devote developer time to fixing omissions and OS weaknesses, not adding auto-tweet functionality.
There's some credence to that remark but it seems everyone is rushing to integrate, so you can hardly blame apple for jumping on the bandwagon

Signal-11
Feb 18, 2012, 06:12 AM
one point to consider

If you do not like do not buy it , stay as you are and enjoy the OS you have

good grief if we did not change we would still be using DOS with a tape drive or UNIX command line

It's not that simple.

I went back to a SL backup after a month of really, really trying to like Lion.

When that MBP failed under warranty, I was given a new MBP as a replacement. With Lion. I am now stuck with Lion. I don't have a choice to go back to Spaces+Expose, which was a much more powerful and much useful UI. Many other aspects of Lion I don't particularly like that mess up my multi-platform workflow with different organizations (versioning, etc), I can turn off or work around. The lack of window management utility to Mission Control drives me nuts. It's like taking the pro power tools a professional contractor is used to and giving him Home Depot tools made for the weekend warrior.

Now, I must also use many more Windows apps through Parallels/VMs because there are many apps because of Lion incompatibilities. I saw some of that coming - Rosetta support had to stop some time - but no, you do not always have a choice of not upgrading.

barmann
Feb 18, 2012, 10:21 AM
we need an OS X Pro with options to turn "features" on/off :cool:

You know, that's actually a very good point .

iOS features and apps are obviously crippled, compared to their computer OS counterparts .

Yet still the majority of OSX users would be perfectly happy with a crippled OS, if it saves them some effort here and there .

For the demanding users who require a fully featured OS , security ( aka privacy, no iCloud ), and adjustability for their workflow there could be a pro version .

I don't see the need to seperate the two, as OSX has worked fine for everyone so far, and iOS itsself can obviously not be used on a computer.

Mission control, Autosave, Versions, full screen behaviour and a few more things really compromise a proper workflow, but there are lots of programs with some of those features - and in all of them (that I know of), you can simply turn them off .

Anyways, there seems to be a demand for iOS features on Macs, and advanced finger gestures and such for casual users - at some point a phone OS and computer OS will just not play well together , as it's the case to a degree in Lion .

So an additional, more flexible and open OS with advanced options, but without some of that iOS stuff, might work best .

HONDAxACURA
Feb 18, 2012, 10:36 AM
I'm all for Apple and applaud their works. But this release of Mountain Lion doesn't seem to be worth it. A couple tiny features that is not worth the money, maybe $20 for the AirPlay mirroring.

Hopefully Apple is bringing the iPad more like OSX, not the other way around. I hope to see a little more integration with Google, because I have set up camp there.

Apple and Google should be friends! :) The ultimate combo of computing.

----------

You know, that's actually a very good point .

iOS features and apps are obviously crippled, compared to their computer OS counterparts .

Yet still the majority of OSX users would be perfectly happy with a crippled OS, if it saves them some effort here and there .

For the demanding users who require a fully featured OS , security ( aka privacy, no iCloud ), and adjustability for their workflow there could be a pro version .

I don't see the need to seperate the two, as OSX has worked fine for everyone so far, and iOS itsself can obviously not be used on a computer.

Mission control, Autosave, Versions, full screen behaviour and a few more things really compromise a proper workflow, but there are lots of programs with some of those features - and in all of them (that I know of), you can simply turn them off .

Anyways, there seems to be a demand for iOS features on Macs, and advanced finger gestures and such for casual users - at some point a phone OS and computer OS will just not play well together , as it's the case to a degree in Lion .

So an additional, more flexible and open OS with advanced options, but without some of that iOS stuff, might work best .

I definitely agree with this post! +1 for more options. Please help support the power users!

barmann
Feb 18, 2012, 10:40 AM
It's not that simple.

I went back to a SL backup after a month of really, really trying to like Lion.

When that MBP failed under warranty, I was given a new MBP as a replacement. With Lion. I am now stuck with Lion.....

- but no, you do not always have a choice of not upgrading.

I had a very similar experience, only I'm still running pimped out older (2008) Hardware .

But you have to keep in mind, most posters here never had to maintain a workflow over several years and several versions of OSs, are casual users and don't understand the impact of seemingly minor OS changes, which can actually be a major paradigm shift .

At the same time, one needs to update hardware in certain intervals, for business reasons, which is where Apple breaks OS compatibility very frequently now .

Lion is the only incarnation of OSX (and earlier Mac OS) I can't switch to for reasons other than maturity, so I'm still hoping ML will fix the shortcomings of it .

Carl Sagan
Feb 18, 2012, 10:41 AM
First.. I know there are many Apple fanboys on this forum, who will defend any step Apple does. I am not interested to get any comments from non-adequate fans. But there are other people who were happy to have OS X as a great alternative to crippled MS Windows.

I did like OS X as it had a great feeling of freedom and simplicity for developing and using software. And now, when Steve is gone, they are starting to kill this unique atmosphere with their attempts to lock the system down and make their expensive and powerful computers just another proprietary and locked entertainment system.

Please do not tell me "Apple will never do that" or "You can disable those restrictions" etc. It's OBVIOUS that Apple is pushing the closed system approach with GateKeeper in OS X.

What do you think about this picture?

http://gizmodo.com/5885837/this-is-how-apple-will-block-unapproved-apps-with-mountain-lions-gatekeeper

That is scary (especially for developers who don't get a chance to be approved by Apple) and is the first sign of a total control. Of course, they cannot force a total control immediately cause they'll get flooded with court cases. BUT!
They will try to push developers and users as much as they can to use AppStore, which is a form of closed and restricted system.

I know it's fine for many MacRumors visitors , but I don't want to convert my Mac in a powerful iPad version. I already have an iPad for entertainment and mobile online activities and it's enough for me.

Apple, please don't make Mac os X a victim of your greed and DRM restrictions! This system was so good to make it locked! And it's based on open-source software. You just have no moral rights to close it and even to attempt to control it fully!

And don't tell me it's about security - it's not. It's all about 30% commission they earn from every app sold and about Apple stock graphs their management is watching daily.

Fans, you can write your usual comments. I know you'll say "don't use it if you don't like it, get away from Apple". That's all you can say.

When Steve was gone? Are you for real?? What makes you think they aren't executing a plan of his?:D

throAU
Feb 18, 2012, 10:45 AM
That is scary (especially for developers who don't get a chance to be approved by Apple) and is the first sign of a total control. Of course, they cannot force a total control immediately cause they'll get flooded with court cases. BUT!
They will try to push developers and users as much as they can to use AppStore, which is a form of closed and restricted system.


This is an OPTION. That many will be happy to take, and for good reason. You don't need to be "approved by apple", the status quo is maintained.

If you want a cert, you pay 99 bucks to get the developer program and a certificate, and then you can sign your code.

If a user wants to run unsigned code, they can. However, the ability to turn off unsigned code closes a huge number of potential security issues in one fell swoop.


Much like most of the other lion stuff. its all OPTIONAL, barring the mission control replacement for expose, which i don't see big deal to be crying over.

The only thing I don't like about lion is the performance decrease vs snow leopard, but mountain lion should fix that, and RAM is cheap anyhow.

maflynn
Feb 18, 2012, 11:00 AM
we need an OS X Pro with options to turn "features" on/off :cool:

Problem is apple moving away from "pro" type features. Just look at FCPX and Aperture both have consumer features and in FCPX they dropped pro features (though they are slowly adding them back in because of the backlash).

Fabricman112
Feb 18, 2012, 11:37 AM
I´d gladly pay $129 for a more relaxed version of OS X, by pro I mean there are some users very comfortable with any OS... I want my computers to act my way not your way
dont see it happening anytime soon though, apple is getting more and more obsessed with having the world their way

stevemiller
Feb 18, 2012, 12:52 PM
I realise that in Lion it takes a couple of extra steps but I keep seeing people say that the windows are stacked and that you can't easily select the one you want, when in fact you can.

4 finger swipe up to access mission control.
Select the top most window of the app you want (regardless if it's the actual window you want).
4 finger swipe down and all windows of that app type are arranged in a grid pattern with no overlapping and easy to see labels.

In fairness I've never used Snow Leopard in any meaningful way so I haven't had any exposure to spaces and expose. I just think that maybe mission control isn't as 'broken' as some people make it out to be.

Yeah its the addition of those extra steps that frustrate me. For example, if i have a bunch of visual references open in preview for a project i'm doing, and i quickly want to go to a specific image, in lion i have to:

1) invoke mission control
2) potentially swipe through all the desktops to find the one with the preview app
3) click the stack of pictures that represents preview to make it active
4) invoke app expose (the grid pattern of app windows you described)
5) visually select the image i am looking for

now my point is, since you are looking for a picture, nothing until step 4) in the previous set of steps will actually guarantee you a visual on the content you're looking for if its buried in a stack of app windows. essentially steps 1 through 3 do nothing more than give you a fancy zooming and swiping experience for finding an application. so unless you just enjoy pretending you're tom cruise in minority report, you might as well just:

1) press the preview app icon on the dock, this will INSTANTLY transport you to whatever desktop the app is located in, and make preview active and at the forefront.
2) invoke app expose
3) visually select the image

and now for the kicker, before lion, and why expose used to be SO awesome, when you wanted to find that open image:

1) invoke expose to see all your open windows in all your apps, with no overlapping
2) visually select the image

and the consequences of this inefficiency are endless. say for whatever reason you have some images open in preview and some open in photoshop and you want to find a particular one. unless you have pre-lion exposé which shows you all your images at the same time, it now becomes a guessing game in lion of which stack of app windows do i think its in.

consider another scenario where you are dragging and dropping files between windows. you want to move something from the desktop to a finder window you have open. you reveal the desktop, start dragging the file, invoke mission control, and discover that the window you want to drag the file into is buried in a pile again. now what??

my feeling is that the usage model lion (and assumedly ML) favours is doing mostly one thing at a time (like on an iPad/iPhone), and "multitasking" is simply task switching. if you just want to go from your Facebook page or blog post to iTunes, and you aren't in a hurry cuz you're hanging out at a coffee shop, it gives you some pretty animations while you're at it. and i love that on my iPhone; heck i'm even getting tempted by the iPad 3, not because it fulfills any pressing need, but because apple makes incredibly appealing casual computing experiences. and that is of value.

but i also come from the group of people who work in the content creation industry, and started using apple in the first place because they were at the forefront of innovation when it came to elegant tools for scatterbrained creatives who need to work with chaos. thats why i'm mourning these losses, not because what we're getting isn't decent in its own right, but because it is a shift away from the paradigms that first attracted what was at one time apple's primary target market. and i honestly don't see *anyone* moving to cater to that niche anymore.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 01:26 PM
The issue is that OS X doesn't actually do anything to help you work with higher resolutions. There aren't any helpful functions for dealing with multiple windows or multiple monitors.

Yes you can put windows next to each other manually. However Windows 7 has Aero Snap...

Oh, it's all just about Areo Snap. :rolleyes: Frankly, I hate that feature they stole from KDE. I hated it in KDE when Windows tried to "snap" some place I didn't want to just because I was dragging them beyond some boundary, I don't like it now either.

OS X doesn't actually need to do anythig to help you work with any resolution. They all just work fine.

----------

There's some credence to that remark but it seems everyone is rushing to integrate, so you can hardly blame apple for jumping on the bandwagon

They are just going about it in the worse way. Social media integration should just be about 3rd parties being able to plug-in, not about Apple writing support for one or the other.

Make a social media framework which application/plug-in providers can use to connect their "app" to the system's social media features. That way, if I want "Twitter integration", I install the twitter stuff. If I want facebook, I install the facebook stuff. If I want none of it, I install none of it at all.

Simple no ? Apparently not so for Apple.

rorschach
Feb 18, 2012, 01:35 PM
First.. I know there are many Apple fanboys on this forum, who will defend any step Apple does. I am not interested to get any comments from non-adequate fans. But there are other people who were happy to have OS X as a great alternative to crippled MS Windows.

I did like OS X as it had a great feeling of freedom and simplicity for developing and using software. And now, when Steve is gone, they are starting to kill this unique atmosphere with their attempts to lock the system down and make their expensive and powerful computers just another proprietary and locked entertainment system.

Please do not tell me "Apple will never do that" or "You can disable those restrictions" etc. It's OBVIOUS that Apple is pushing the closed system approach with GateKeeper in OS X.

What do you think about this picture?

http://gizmodo.com/5885837/this-is-how-apple-will-block-unapproved-apps-with-mountain-lions-gatekeeper

That is scary (especially for developers who don't get a chance to be approved by Apple) and is the first sign of a total control. Of course, they cannot force a total control immediately cause they'll get flooded with court cases. BUT!
They will try to push developers and users as much as they can to use AppStore, which is a form of closed and restricted system.

I know it's fine for many MacRumors visitors , but I don't want to convert my Mac in a powerful iPad version. I already have an iPad for entertainment and mobile online activities and it's enough for me.

Apple, please don't make Mac os X a victim of your greed and DRM restrictions! This system was so good to make it locked! And it's based on open-source software. You just have no moral rights to close it and even to attempt to control it fully!

And don't tell me it's about security - it's not. It's all about 30% commission they earn from every app sold and about Apple stock graphs their management is watching daily.

Fans, you can write your usual comments. I know you'll say "don't use it if you don't like it, get away from Apple". That's all you can say.

Hilarious. No, it's not "OBVIOUS" that Apple is moving towards a "closed system approach." GateKeeper provides MORE user control, not less. Mountain Lion is a step AWAY from a "walled garden" model and I will tell you right now that you will never see the ability to install any application you want removed from OS X. You can bookmark this post and quote me if I'm ever proven wrong.

Do you know how much of a profit Apple makes from iTunes and the App Stores? Barely any. That 30% take is not pure profit. Almost all of it goes towards hosting, support, advertising, and the credit card fees that Apple provides for every developer on the App Store - even the free apps.

MrAndy1369
Feb 18, 2012, 01:42 PM
You can install SL on your MBP. Current models are supported by SL. You'll need a SL 10.6.7 DVD that was included with another MBP, and once installing 10.6.8, you'll be all good to go. Worked for me; find a friend who has a MBP 2011 notebook and SL 10.6.7 (cannot be lower than 10.6.7), then just install and update, and you don't have to deal with Lion. :)

It's not that simple.

I went back to a SL backup after a month of really, really trying to like Lion.

When that MBP failed under warranty, I was given a new MBP as a replacement. With Lion. I am now stuck with Lion. I don't have a choice to go back to Spaces+Expose, which was a much more powerful and much useful UI. Many other aspects of Lion I don't particularly like that mess up my multi-platform workflow with different organizations (versioning, etc), I can turn off or work around. The lack of window management utility to Mission Control drives me nuts. It's like taking the pro power tools a professional contractor is used to and giving him Home Depot tools made for the weekend warrior.

Now, I must also use many more Windows apps through Parallels/VMs because there are many apps because of Lion incompatibilities. I saw some of that coming - Rosetta support had to stop some time - but no, you do not always have a choice of not upgrading.

MasterHowl
Feb 18, 2012, 04:12 PM
I think all the "iOS features" they've brought in so far are a fantastic addition... resume for apps, notification centre (my favourite), full screen mode, the new gestures brought in for Lion, launchpad.

I could probably go on, but for me, all the iOS features they've brought to the mac make my life much easier and the whole "Mac experience" better!

r0k
Feb 18, 2012, 04:18 PM
First with .ds_store, then with LaunchPad and now with .versions files Apple seems to be making war on the Unix filesystem and end users are the ones that stand to lose the battle if this goes unchecked.Can you explain what you mean by this? This is an honest question too.

Apple is using dot files to keep track of stuff like custom folder colors. Come on. I don't use custom folder colors but I have to contend with .ds_store being created on any folder I touch. I didn't mention this in my post, but for a while there, if I created a USB stick to take out to my car and listen to music with 100 mp3 files on it, OSX put 100 parasitic ._whatever.mp3 files on the stick to confuse the heck out of my car stereo and confuse the heck out of anybody who looks at that folder that isn't on a Mac. Bad form. To me this is ignoring how the file system was intended to be used and running roughshod over it as a means to Apple's ends.

I further think Apple feels they have moved beyond the traditional file system. They want the file system to go away. On iOS, everything is sandboxed and the only way to share data between apps is to "open with" which makes YET ANOTHER copy of the file you pass along in the next app's little sandbox. There is one exception in that multiple apps can see the "camera roll" but otherwise all they can see is their own little sandbox and their own little slice of iCloud. I see sandboxing of apps on OS X as another step away from a filesystem that might bring this sort of lunacy to OS X. Can you imagine viewing a PDF in Preview only to find you have to download it again if you want to view it in Acrobat reader? Can you imagine going part of the way through creating a spreadsheet in LibreOffice and deciding to open it in iWork instead only to find you must pass iWork its own separate copy and LibreOffice has a "copy lying around" that will never get updated unless you pass the document back again?

So when I see .DocumentRevisions... sitting in / on Macintosh HD and it contains autosaved copies of any document I've modified in an Apple app, whether it's a PDF in preview or a word document in Pages, it bothers me. A lot. Suppose I decide I want to back up stuff. Ok fine, I tell crashplan to back up everything in my Documents folder. But it's not all there because the OS is sneaking around making copies of my stuff down in /.DocumentRevisions... My personal files, such as a scanned PDF of a family member's passport belongs in exactly one place and that's the folder I saved it to.

So IMHO Apple has declared war on general purpose computing and Unix is a casualty along with it. All they need is reliable preemptive multitasking but the rest of Unix Apple assumes we can live without.

I was a Linux user for close to 15 years before I was an OSX user and what drew me to OSX was that underneath it's Unix. All these multiplying dot files and back door tricks to "manage stuff" for me behind my back feels too much like iOS. I never jailbroke my iOS iThings but I'd jailbreak my Mac on day one if I found myself in a straight jacket that prevented me from using the work flow that works best for me. If

Apple can somehow pull off curated computing on the desktop without dumbing things down the point it's just a "giant iPod Touch" I'll have to hand it to them. But since I'm still waiting for a legit filesystem (without jailbreaking) my iPad 1, I doubt Apple can pull it off. I should explain further that I don't mind the fact my iPad is just a giant iPod Touch. I like a lot about the iPad the way it is, but with its big screen it's more computer than iPod Touch I'd like it even more if I could share files between applications and manage my own files if I wanted to.

WSR
Feb 18, 2012, 05:36 PM
I don't have any problems with iOS and MacOS sharing some interface features. It does make since that some of the experience would be the same between the two especially for things like messaging and Facetime.

The problem is when Apple removes feature from MacOS to make it more like iOS.

For example:
1. The downgrading of Spaces and Expose. I find Mission Control to be less powerful, and I'm sure Apple can give us a choice between Classic Spaces/Expose and Mission Control.
2. I don't want Resume, Versions or AutoSave and not all of these can be turned off.
3. The loss of "Do you want to Save?" I want control over what is saved, and as some have reported Versions is taking up a lot of drive space contrary to what Jobs said.
4. I don't want my apps sandboxed on my Mac. I don't mind it on my iPod Touch, but not on my Mac.
5. i don't want my only source of apps to be the App Store. Again, I don't mind it on my iPod Touch, but not on my Mac.

KnightWRX
Feb 18, 2012, 05:38 PM
Apple is using dot files to keep track of stuff like custom folder colors. Come on. I don't use custom folder colors but I have to contend with .ds_store being created on any folder I touch. I didn't mention this in my post, but for a while there, if I created a USB stick to take out to my car and listen to music with 100 mp3 files on it, OSX put 100 parasitic ._whatever.mp3 files on the stick to confuse the heck out of my car stereo and confuse the heck out of anybody who looks at that folder that isn't on a Mac. Bad form. To me this is ignoring how the file system was intended to be used and running roughshod over it as a means to Apple's ends.


What does your FAT32 formatted USB stick and car stereo that assumes a FAT filesystem and doesn't ignore .hidden files have to do with a "war on the Unix filesystem" exactly ?

No, really, Apple's use of .files is fine. It's all the devices that don't follow Unix conventions that break, not Apple that is breaking Unix.

If anything, Apple's VFS layer should detect when it is writing to a DOS/Windows formatted drive (either FATXX or NTFS) and automatically set the H attribute on the file (which is what those filesystems use).

Lonectzn
Feb 18, 2012, 06:14 PM
but i also come from the group of people who work in the content creation industry, and started using apple in the first place because they were at the forefront of innovation when it came to elegant tools for scatterbrained creatives who need to work with chaos. thats why i'm mourning these losses, not because what we're getting isn't decent in its own right, but because it is a shift away from the paradigms that first attracted what was at one time apple's primary target market. and i honestly don't see *anyone* moving to cater to that niche anymore.

I feel the same way. And it's not quite as simple as "If you don't like it don't use it". Some people have a considerable investment in applications and experience using OS X. Switching entails a real cost in dollars and time.

It's certainly not at the stage where I have to drop it all and find another solution, but Apple seem to have been saying pretty clearly that they have a new demographic now. And Apple is exactly the kind of company that is willing to sacrifice other users to better serve their target market. That's kind of their whole thing - laser sharp focus on your users, ignore everything else. It's good business sense, but that's not really any consolation for the ones left out.

Lonectzn
Feb 18, 2012, 06:35 PM
Oh, it's all just about Areo Snap. :rolleyes: Frankly, I hate that feature they stole from KDE. I hated it in KDE when Windows tried to "snap" some place I didn't want to just because I was dragging them beyond some boundary, I don't like it now either.

OS X doesn't actually need to do anythig to help you work with any resolution. They all just work fine.[COLOR="#808080"]

That's mostly preference, and you'd have to be in the minority for hating something that merely saves time placing windows and can be turned off. It could also be turned off in KDE, but the point was it was there if you wanted it.

It's not just about that, either. I'd like the dock to optionally show window titles on minimised applications, finder could use just about a complete rewrite to use available space better, UI text sizes should be adjustable, mission control is inefficient, <etc more niggles here>.

Joe HS
Feb 18, 2012, 07:38 PM
What do you think about this picture?

http://gizmodo.com/5885837/this-is-how-apple-will-block-unapproved-apps-with-mountain-lions-gatekeeper

That is scary (especially for developers who don't get a chance to be approved by Apple) and is the first sign of a total control. Of course, they cannot force a total control immediately cause they'll get flooded with court cases. BUT!
They will try to push developers and users as much as they can to use AppStore, which is a form of closed and restricted system.


The picture? I think it shows that novice users will never need to be concerned about virus' or malware again. Only software verified to be safe can be run. Users who know what they're doing will turn it off, and it has to be on by default else truly novice users would see no benefit.

Developers who's apps don't conform to the App Store's rules can sell their apps elsewhere. The apps that need to access more of the system than Apple wants aren't the kind of apps that 'Gatekeeper users' need to run or know about.

Signal-11
Feb 18, 2012, 09:43 PM
You can install SL on your MBP. Current models are supported by SL. You'll need a SL 10.6.7 DVD that was included with another MBP, and once installing 10.6.8, you'll be all good to go. Worked for me; find a friend who has a MBP 2011 notebook and SL 10.6.7 (cannot be lower than 10.6.7), then just install and update, and you don't have to deal with Lion. :)

I'm aware of this and I am considering a 2nd partition for 10.6.x, but to be honest, (and I've gone down this road before - over-committing to past versions for specific features that were written out) it doesn't end well for that proverbial eskimo on the ice floe.

The versioning and window restoration stuff, I've turned off and have created workarounds for. But man, the loss of Spaces + Expose features drives me batpoo bonkers every day because I remember what I used to be able to do or how would have found a lost window. In SL, it used to be amazingly easy to find specific windows across a dozen Spaces/Desktops over multiple OS/VMs and remote desktop windows... :mad:

This is without a doubt the feature I miss the most.

Tinyluph
Feb 18, 2012, 09:50 PM
If you're worried that iOS is going to replace OS X then stop, pause, and take off the tinfoil hat because that's never going to happen.

If you're upset that Apple is drawing from the same set of design principles they use in iOS to improve OS X then I suggest you either get used to it or find a new platform because they're never going back on that.

cocky jeremy
Feb 18, 2012, 10:57 PM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

Agree. They aren't "making OS X like iOS". They're simply adding a lot of the same features to both so you can seamlessly go back and forth between devices. This is good, not bad.

heimbachae
Feb 19, 2012, 04:08 AM
If you're worried that iOS is going to replace OS X then stop, pause, and take off the tinfoil hat because that's never going to happen.

If you're upset that Apple is drawing from the same set of design principles they use in iOS to improve OS X then I suggest you either get used to it or find a new platform because they're never going back on that.

so here's a good question. why can features be ported from iOS to OS X and not the other way around.

for example: gatekeeper. discuss.

maril1111
Feb 19, 2012, 04:17 AM
so here's a good question. why can features be ported from iOS to OS X and not the other way around.

for example: gatekeeper. discuss.

I am guessing gatekeeper isn't ported because the ios system is locked down enough as is and if i remember correctly you can't install software from unknown sources unless you jailbreak.

Tech198
Feb 19, 2012, 04:18 AM
I don't mind Lion, to be honest, But Mountain Lion?

This is getting outta control... Why would you wanna sense SMS/message a Mac ? Makes sense fro ma tablet like the iPad, and/or IPhone, but a Mac is a computer, Notification Centre is another one....


You can't help feeling, "all IOS based features will be migrated to the Mac. regardless of how u-important/useless they may become" *shrugs*

Seems were going down this road.... Lion is ok,, but i'll probably stick with it, Being Apple, there'd be no way to disable notifications on the Mac when Mountain Lion ships or even in the future..

Thats just my 2 cents...

Apples slogan to saying "its just works".. my response is "not any more now"

PBP
Feb 19, 2012, 04:52 AM
I don't get the endlessly OSX becomes iOS wining. If you don't want to use launchpad,messages,notes,reminders.. don't use it then :confused: . Your not forced to use it..

cocky jeremy
Feb 19, 2012, 06:18 AM
I don't mind Lion, to be honest, But Mountain Lion?

This is getting outta control... Why would you wanna sense SMS/message a Mac ? Makes sense fro ma tablet like the iPad, and/or IPhone, but a Mac is a computer, Notification Centre is another one....


You can't help feeling, "all IOS based features will be migrated to the Mac. regardless of how u-important/useless they may become" *shrugs*

Seems were going down this road.... Lion is ok,, but i'll probably stick with it, Being Apple, there'd be no way to disable notifications on the Mac when Mountain Lion ships or even in the future..

Thats just my 2 cents...

Apples slogan to saying "its just works".. my response is "not any more now"

1) Why would you want to send messages to a Mac? If you're on a phone, it's a lot easier than texting someone in one app, then opening up an instant messaging app for someone else. Besides, if they have an iPhone, they can use this without paying for texting.
2) "not anymore" - What exactly doesn't work now?

Tech198
Feb 19, 2012, 06:28 AM
1) Why would you want to send messages to a Mac?

I meant FROM a mac..

1) "not anymore" - What exactly doesn't work now?

Not being picky here. but Apple has radically changed the way OSX has worked from 10.6... This is what i mean. including IOS features, some people may like them, but to me, they would be suited more just for a mobile device/tablet, not just because i don't use them. thats not the point... Its just because there in OS X.

Partron22
Feb 19, 2012, 07:07 AM
If you're worried that iOS is going to replace OS...

Apple's development platform, Xcode, doesn't run on iOS. Without it, no one can write code for iOS devices. Until we start seeing signs of a complete dev environment on iOS devices, even a private Apple API*, there's no danger of iOS replacing OS X.
At its core iOS is a consumer OS, and consumer OS's need a paired development system/OS, or the consumer content will get stale. I'm pretty sure Apple doesn't want to sell fashionable shiny things equipped with stale content. Who would buy them?



--------------------------
*It's unlikely Apple would ditch all 3rd party devs. That'd kill App store, piss off too many people, and likely push Apple deeply back into the software development business.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 07:13 AM
@Tech198: Maybe it's just me, but sending messages from a Mac to my friend's iPhone or iPad sounds strangely useful.

Also, again: what exactly doesn't work now? If you don't use the iOS features, it just works the way it always did. The only things I imagine you could be referring to is Autosave and the lack of Exposé (though the latter has nothing to do with iOS). Sorry for being nitpicky, it's just that most things still just work the way they're supposed to.

If you want a cert, you pay 99 bucks to get the developer program and a certificate, and then you can sign your code.

Actually, you don't even need to pay 99 bucks. At least that's what John Gruber was told:

...“Gatekeeper”. It’s a system whereby developers can sign up for free-of-charge Apple developer IDs which they can then use to cryptographically sign their applications.
(source: http://daringfireball.net/2012/02/mountain_lion, emphasis mine)

The way I understood it is that the apps don't even have to conform to App Store rules in order to be allowed by Gatekeeper.

As for Gatekeeper on the iPhone: I'd love that, and see no technical reason they shouldn't be able to port it. I don't think they will, though.

pdjudd
Feb 19, 2012, 08:03 AM
Gatekeeper isn’t something that you would “port” to iOS anyway - all you would need to do is change the way applications get installed on iOS similar to how jail braking accomplishes the same thing.

However I doubt that Apple is going to do that anymore than I think they will ever make OSX app store only - they have philosophical reasons for doing so based on how the devices operate. it’s also the same reason why Apple is never going to replace OSX with iOS - the two accomplish different things in different ways. Apple has pretty much admitted as much before. They do not see the “one operating system everywhere” model of systems that Microsoft has seen Windows doing in the past.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 08:58 AM
Apple's development platform, Xcode, doesn't run on iOS. Without it, no one can write code for iOS devices. Until we start seeing signs of a complete dev environment on iOS devices, even a private Apple API*, there's no danger of iOS replacing OS X.
At its core iOS is a consumer OS, and consumer OS's need a paired development system/OS, or the consumer content will get stale. I'm pretty sure Apple doesn't want to sell fashionable shiny things equipped with stale content. Who would buy them?

There is no such distinction in the world of OSes. Consumers OSes can run compilers/linkers/pre-processors just fine. The fact that Apple still hasn't ported XCode over doesn't mean it can't be done with current iOS infrastructure and APIs (in fact quite the contrary, gcc-objc and clang are already available for ARM platforms and XCode is just some big text editor, all APIs required to write one are available on iOS), it just means Apple doesn't think it's worthwhile.

Frankly, as someone who writes code, the last thing I want to do is write code on an iPad or an iPhone.

Remember kids, iOS and OS X share their entire underlying infrastructure, frameworks and APIs. It's only on the surface that they aren't "merged". The OSes are already basically the same OS.

Partron22
Feb 19, 2012, 09:24 AM
There is no such distinction in the world of OSes. Consumers OSes can run compilers/linkers/pre-processors just fine.I didn't say they couldn't. I said Apple hasn't moved in that direction with iOS. There's no evidence that they're going to move in that direction. Until they do make that move, the guts of OS X are safe.
As you yourself claim, Apple doesn't think the move is worthwhile.
So what's your point then, that Apple doesn't think it's worthwhile to dump Xcode in favor of an iOS only dev platform? I already said that. That factor should keep OS X safe in some semblence of its present form.

Heck they've even kept their latest authoring venture, iBooks, as a MacOS, not iOS, App. It's pretty clear they recognize that OSX has the advantage over iOS for content development, and that they're not willing to toss that advantage in a quixotic pursuit of OS unity.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 09:38 AM
As you yourself claim, Apple doesn't think the move is worthwhile.
So what's your point then, that Apple doesn't think it's worthwhile to dump Xcode in favor of an iOS only dev platform? I already said that. That factor should keep OS X safe in some semblence of its present form.


My point is that iOS and OS X are already the same OS. The surface might be different, but all the core and underlying structures are very much alike. The "merging" thing is a red-herring, they were and always will be merged.

Bringing protocols/apps from one into the other just makes sense, but to actually try to merge Springboard and Finder or Appkit and UIkit makes little sense as those components are different for a very good reason : They cater to different input paradigms which their respective hardware implements.

A touch screen interface won't ever work right on Macs and a mouse/keyboard one won't on iPads/iPhones. For now, iPads are quite bad at being "desktops" and frankly to code, you need a desktop. Text entry on the iPad frankly sucks. It sucks even more on iPhone. It's good for a quite typing session, but laptops/desktops remain king in this department (yes, I know you can "dock an iPad", but really, I'd rather carry an all-in-one laptop than an iPad, a dock and a keyboard all separate in my bag, so that's not a solution, it's a stop-gap measure).

beargulch
Feb 19, 2012, 10:04 AM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.

I feel the same way. I find iPhone/iPad's IOS to be very limiting when trying to operate in a multi-window environment. I'm a developer, and I often have 10 or more windows open on the same screen. I want them on the same screen, I don't want to be swiping apps off the screen to see other windows to copy and past stuff.

I will have to wait to see how 10.8 actually works, but I have to say that my heart sank today when I read in Wired that you will need an Apple ID to log in to Mountain Lion. If that is true, I will delay upgrading as long as possible.

Sorry, I don't want to become part of the iCloud every time I log in. I don't really use it. I want to be in control of which apps do log in to my Apple ID. Apple, as well as Google, Facebook and others, have not earned my trust to give them that kind of base access to my computer. Will Apple and other apps be scraping info off of my computer, like my contacts?

Also, some things that they call improvements in Lion weren't improvements to me, like the way iWork handles Versions, or the way Lion boots up with whatever was open when you shut it down. I hate these features, and have yet to find a reliable way around them.

And telling us that if we don't like it we can go back to Microsoft, nostylluan, is pretty disrespectful. Apple needs to hear from everyone. If they don't care, then they are just like Microsoft.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 10:14 AM
..., or the way Lion boots up with whatever was open when you shut it down. I hate these features, and have yet to find a reliable way around them.

Isn't there a way to disable that one, by choosing "don't restore windows" when shutting down / rebooting? Apparently that choice doesn't get saved and remembered now, but will be in Mountain Lion.

pdjudd
Feb 19, 2012, 10:25 AM
I will have to wait to see how 10.8 actually works, but I have to say that my heart sank today when I read in Wired that you will need an Apple ID to log in to Mountain Lion. If that is true, I will delay upgrading as long as possible.

I don’t believe that it is true at all. I haven’t read any article that implies that. Sounds like the wired author didn’t explain things properly. ML is not a cloud OS - there is no reason that you would log on to your computer with an Apple ID - It doesn’t make any sense given how AppleIDs operate to this day. Heck, it’s not needed today. You log on to your computer and it automatically uses your Apple ID for iCloud services. Why would Apple need to change this?

And telling us that if we don't like it we can go back to Microsoft, nostylluan, is pretty disrespectful. Apple needs to hear from everyone. If they don't care, then they are just like Microsoft.
News flash, Apple doesn’t listen to everyone - been that way for many many years. There are tons of examples of many things that people have been asking for and never gets it. Apple does what it want’s to do.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 11:06 AM
I don’t believe that it is true at all. I haven’t read any article that implies that.

He's referring to this piece :

http://www.wired.com/cloudline/2012/02/icloud-mountainlion/
For users, it’s a cloud-first experience: You sign into OS X Mountain Lion using your Apple ID, which then triggers iCloud

Pretty sure Wired doesn't quite mean what the poster thinks they mean.

pdjudd
Feb 19, 2012, 11:22 AM
He's referring to this piece :

http://www.wired.com/cloudline/2012/02/icloud-mountainlion/


Pretty sure Wired doesn't quite mean what the poster thinks they mean.

I was more thinking of other articles other than the Wired article. That’s because I was thinking that the article got it wrong or misstated things. I was saying that I haven’t read that idea in any other article about ML - it’s something that you expect. I mean, you don’t need an Apple ID to use the iPhone - sounds like a big step...

I do agree with you in that the Wired article isn’t saying what the poster thinks it is - I think it is talking about the way things is - the Apple ID is part of of the login (in Wired case the credentials maybe the same) and that kicks off the iCloud login (like it is now). Either that or he is confusing the Apple ID with the local login.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 11:29 AM
I was more thinking of other articles other than the Wired article. That’s because I was thinking that the article got it wrong or misstated things. I was saying that I haven’t read that idea in any other article about ML - it’s something that you expect. I mean, you don’t need an Apple ID to use the iPhone - sounds like a big step...

I do agree with you in that the Wired article isn’t saying what the poster thinks it is - I think it is talking about the way things is - the Apple ID is part of of the login (in Wired case the credentials maybe the same) and that kicks off the iCloud login (like it is now). Either that or he is confusing the Apple ID with the local login.

Yep, pretty sure the Wired article is talking about the way it is in Lion :

325244

Someone who has ML could confirm if Apple changed the pref for it or not. (no, I do not use iCloud, hence why it has no configuration on my computer).

pdjudd
Feb 19, 2012, 11:44 AM
I think it’s the same sign-in process - the big deal with ML is that there is more iCloud services. Not much more than that...

Jagardn
Feb 19, 2012, 05:12 PM
I don't mind Lion, to be honest, But Mountain Lion?

This is getting outta control... Why would you wanna sense SMS/message a Mac ? Makes sense fro ma tablet like the iPad, and/or IPhone, but a Mac is a computer, Notification Centre is another one....

Why not, when I am working on my Macbook Air and get an iMessage, I don't need to pull out my phone. I't s a hell of a lot easier to type on a keyboard

You can't help feeling, "all IOS based features will be migrated to the Mac. regardless of how u-important/useless they may become" *shrugs*

I hope they do, that means I can use the same stuff on my phone and Mac

Seems were going down this road.... Lion is ok,, but i'll probably stick with it, Being Apple, there'd be no way to disable notifications on the Mac when Mountain Lion ships or even in the future..
Most of the stuff doesn't need to be disabled, just don't se it! I know, I know...Mission Control...
Thats just my 2 cents...

Apples slogan to saying "its just works".. my response is "not any more now"
I'm not seeing what's not working????


Some people just don't like change...

pmz
Feb 19, 2012, 08:22 PM
I really hate paging through dozens of pages of apps that aren't alphabetized and I must manually drag them around and organize them. I really hate doing without the ability to share files between apps on my iPad without making a copy of the file for each app that touches it. If sandboxed apps on OS X ML work the same way, I'd be very frustrated.

I'm not saying iOS is bad. I'm saying it doesn't fit my desktop workflow. The thing is, I think Apple would rather go after the millions of iOS faithful who might buy a Mac if they think it will be "the same" as their iOS device. And those guys don't have a workflow, except possibly on Windows. And I don't call what I do on Windows workflow. I think it's best referred to as suffering.

Then there's the whole hardware issue. I just upgraded hardware in mid 2011 so I'd be ready for Lion and now Apple tells me it's time to break out the checkbook again? So soon? You see I could get everything I needed to be Lion-ready from Crucial and OWC. But I can't ditch these Intel graphics without spending the BIG bucks so I'll probably be on the ML sidelines for quite some time. Not that I think I wouldn't like it. It's just about the cost of upgrading hardware twice in less than a year.

Why would you buy a machine with just Intel graphics if you actually cared about performance? Sounds to me like YOUR issue, not Apples.

----------

I don't mind Lion, to be honest, But Mountain Lion?

This is getting outta control... Why would you wanna sense SMS/message a Mac ? Makes sense fro ma tablet like the iPad, and/or IPhone, but a Mac is a computer, Notification Centre is another one....


You can't help feeling, "all IOS based features will be migrated to the Mac. regardless of how u-important/useless they may become" *shrugs*

Seems were going down this road.... Lion is ok,, but i'll probably stick with it, Being Apple, there'd be no way to disable notifications on the Mac when Mountain Lion ships or even in the future..

Thats just my 2 cents...

Apples slogan to saying "its just works".. my response is "not any more now"

This about as useless as post gets.

Do you have any concept of how many apps have tried to replicate what Messages does? How many years people have built widgets and apps and integration to try and make this work for people? Its because they want it.
I've wanted to be able to just send a reliable SMS from my Mac for over a decade, and for the last half a decade wished I could somehow coax bluetooth into allowing a message to typed on my Mac and sent through my iPhone...

Now Apple, finally, delivers complete integration and synchronizing of Messages across all devices. Couldn't possibly be happier about that.

waynep
Feb 19, 2012, 08:48 PM
I downloaded Messages on my Lion machine. I love it. . . makes it easy to send "text" messages to my kids when I am at my desk. The kids and my wife have iPhones.

Lonectzn
Feb 20, 2012, 02:21 AM
Do you have any concept of how many apps have tried to replicate what Messages does? How many years people have built widgets and apps and integration to try and make this work for people? Its because they want it.
I've wanted to be able to just send a reliable SMS from my Mac for over a decade, and for the last half a decade wished I could somehow coax bluetooth into allowing a message to typed on my Mac and sent through my iPhone...

You do realise that it doesn't actually send an SMS, right? It's merely the same as those other applications you mentioned, with the additional restriction of only sending to Apple products. .Gmail and Android have basically the same feature. You can go into Gmail (or even iChat/Messages) and instantly send a message to anyone who has set up their android phone with a Gmail account. Even better, they don't have to have an android, it works across many platforms.

The difference is just that Apple combined the applications, used your phone number as your chat account, and made them pretty. Still, it's a very important difference from the perspective of say, the previous poster sending messages to their kids iPhones.

However, I'm unsure how generally useful Messages is on the mac, as it relies on the people in your contact list owning iDevices. This isn't an issue in the iPhone Messages application because it falls back on regular SMS, but on a mac there isn't that option.

iCloud has a similar problem. Having a Mac, Android phone and working on Linux/Windows computers, iCloud applications don't really bring anything of value.

barmann
Feb 20, 2012, 12:53 PM
Some people just don't like change...

Some people know operating systems - some like iOS . ;)

Skzerk
Feb 20, 2012, 06:15 PM
Sorry for the lack of replies, I forgot that I posted this.

I guess in a way what scared me the most is the restrictions from 3rd party applications, and others "add-ons" that are arriving. But there's more than likely going to be an option to turn them off If you don't want them. I kind of came at this from a one sided angle, considering I've only owned OSX on iMacs, not MBP or any other MB, so I really don't really have a need for all the productivity so all this messaging, and programs intended for on the fly users and other stuff doesn't really have much use to me.

apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

Lol, I've never owned a computer running windows in my whole life :).

Icy1007
Feb 21, 2012, 12:10 AM
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 4: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

Well, Microsoft is kind of doing the same thing with their Metro interface.

cocky jeremy
Feb 21, 2012, 12:41 AM
Some people know operating systems - some like iOS . ;)

I'm yet to see what's wrong with having a unified experience across all devices? Why is it SO bad that iOS features are being added to OS X? It's not like it's turning Macs into big iPhone or something. They're still just as ready to do whatever pros/tech geeks need now as they were before, just with more features.

PassiveSmoking
Feb 21, 2012, 01:23 AM
I thinks what's bothering me is not the iOSification of the GUI (Some of that stuff works really well in Lion, and a proper notification system in Mountain Lion is way overdue). It's more the apparent attempt to establish a walled garden around OSX like the one around iOS.

For a mobile device a walled garden is fine. A mobile device is not a device I want to stress over, I don't want to have to install virus checkers and firewalls on my phone or worry about app installers and what they might be leaving behind when you uninstall them, and all the other baggage associated with the desktop experience, I just want them to work.

The desktop, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. I don't want a walled garden around my desktop! I want to be able to pull in software from whatever source I want and use the machine as I see fit.

The whole Gatekeeper thing, I can understand the logic behind it, but one worrying aspect of the Mountain Lion coverage was the discovery from the Ars article about Growl that access to new APIs added for Mountain Lion is restricted to app-store software.

Wait, what?

If true, then the intent is obvious. Apple want App Store software to appear more functional than non-App Store software. Non-app store software can't use notifications, and probably not game centre, or any other new feature either. In this way they would want to get customers purchasing from the app store and nudge all app distribution to the store, at which point they could eventually pull the plug on other app distribution models altogether.

Given that the App Store has strict rules over what your apps are allowed to do and what they aren't allowed to do, this could seriously hurt all kinds of legitimate apps that do stuff forbidden by app store rules. Virtual Machine software that installs kexts would be out for a start, and if sandboxing really does become mandatory, even apps that browse the filesystem could be out!

Whilst OSX definitely could stand to learn a few tricks from iOS, Apple need to remember that phones and tablets are fundamentally different devices from full-blown computers.

tom vilsack
Feb 21, 2012, 04:34 AM
get use to it...in fact i predict all future os will be iOS like and reside at the cloud and are devices will simply be dumb terminals...

BaldiMac
Feb 21, 2012, 01:32 PM
The problem is when Apple removes feature from MacOS to make it more like iOS.

For example:
1. The downgrading of Spaces and Expose. I find Mission Control to be less powerful, and I'm sure Apple can give us a choice between Classic Spaces/Expose and Mission Control.
2. I don't want Resume, Versions or AutoSave and not all of these can be turned off.
3. The loss of "Do you want to Save?" I want control over what is saved, and as some have reported Versions is taking up a lot of drive space contrary to what Jobs said.
4. I don't want my apps sandboxed on my Mac. I don't mind it on my iPod Touch, but not on my Mac.
5. i don't want my only source of apps to be the App Store. Again, I don't mind it on my iPod Touch, but not on my Mac.

None of your examples are actually examples of removing features from MacOS to make it more like iOS.

jji7skyline
Feb 21, 2012, 06:34 PM
I dont like the idea either :/

Mountain Lion does seem to be a good upgrade though.

NorthDakota91
Feb 21, 2012, 07:03 PM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

Hey, but also microsoft does this ;) look at the win8, win7phone, xbox ;)

barmann
Feb 22, 2012, 01:36 PM
Whilst OSX definitely could stand to learn a few tricks from iOS, Apple need to remember that phones and tablets are fundamentally different devices from full-blown computers.

Hear, hear .

It might benefit the discussion, if more people remembered this .
Personally, I also find iOS quite immature, and barely able to run a phone .

Trouble is, as I said before, many comments suggest the posters do not have any need for a proper computer, and the OS required to run it .
If it were up to those users, the MBA would be the last Mac standing - if that .

Fair enough, whatever the masses desire most will succeed - I'd be devestated if I had to switch to Windows, though .

BaldiMac
Feb 22, 2012, 02:02 PM
Hear, hear .

It might benefit the discussion, if more people remembered this .
Personally, I also find iOS quite immature, and barely able to run a phone .

Trouble is, as I said before, many comments suggest the posters do not have any need for a proper computer, and the OS required to run it .
If it were up to those users, the MBA would be the last Mac standing - if that .

Fair enough, whatever the masses desire most will succeed - I'd be devestated if I had to switch to Windows, though .

Why do I get the feeling that "proper computer" and all the rest of this post is just another instance of trying to complain about Mission Control and a lack of "Save As..." by making it seem to be part of a larger problem? :) I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong!

jameslmoser
Feb 22, 2012, 02:05 PM
Why do I get the feeling that "proper computer" and all the rest of this post is just another instance of trying to complain about Mission Control and a lack of "Save As..." by making it seem to be part of a larger problem? :) I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong!

Try to make an iOS app on iOS...

BaldiMac
Feb 22, 2012, 02:10 PM
Try to make an iOS app on iOS...

I have no idea what that has to do with my post. I'm pretty sure we are talking about iOS features moving to OS X.

thundersteele
Feb 22, 2012, 02:41 PM
Good features should come to OSX, I don't care if where they come from.

Imho, Launchpad + Dock is better than the old Dock+Applications folder in Dock solution. Launchpad is just not finished... it should be more intuitive to organize and add/remove applications.

The spaces replacement is ok. Once you add gestures to the game it gets awesome.

Once they copy a feature from iOS, they should think how to make it even better, using PC features. Adding a search function to Launchpad in ML is such an improvement.

jameslmoser
Feb 22, 2012, 03:02 PM
I have no idea what that has to do with my post. I'm pretty sure we are talking about iOS features moving to OS X.

Your post insinuated that people referring that a "proper computer" being different from a phone or tablet was just more "complaints", when it is in fact very true. The iphone and ipad are media consumption devices, and desktop computers are more like media creation devices, among so many other things. They are general computing devices, where the iphone and ipad are more specific computing devices.

Without the desktop, the iphone and ipad probably wouldn't really be all that successful because there wouldn't be any apps for them.

BaldiMac
Feb 22, 2012, 03:14 PM
Your post insinuated that people referring that a "proper computer" being different from a phone or tablet was just more "complaints", when it is in fact very true. The iphone and ipad are media consumption devices, and desktop computers are more like media creation devices, among so many other things. They are general computing devices, where the iphone and ipad are more specific computing devices.

Without the desktop, the iphone and ipad probably wouldn't really be all that successful because there wouldn't be any apps for them.

I didn't insinuate that at all. If you read the whole post, I assumed the complaints to be in reference to Mission Control and a lack of "Save As..", neither of which has to do with iOS. Or you could just look at the topic of the thread. My post, and the one I was responding to, were about changes in OS X.

jameslmoser
Feb 22, 2012, 03:40 PM
I didn't insinuate that at all. If you read the whole post, I assumed the complaints to be in reference to Mission Control and a lack of "Save As..", neither of which has to do with iOS. Or you could just look at the topic of the thread. My post, and the one I was responding to, were about changes in OS X.

okay, sorry I didn't understand what you were "trying" to say. Reading your post again it still sounds like your comparing the suggestion that "proper computer" to just another complain. "another instance" and "in reference to" are not the same thing.

After your explanation, I think I understand what your trying to say. But a lot of the way mission control works does exist because of iOS. So you can swipe left and right between apps, just like you do on the iPad.

Its just silly. Studies have shown that gesture based controls are a step backwards in usability. Even Tim Cook had issues demoing Lion... but hey they are cool and might sell some more ipads so here they are.

BaldiMac
Feb 22, 2012, 03:53 PM
But a lot of the way mission control works does exist because of iOS. So you can swipe left and right between apps, just like you do on the iPad.

Mission Control came before swiping between apps on the iPad.

Its just silly. Studies have shown that gesture based controls are a step backwards in usability.

Studies have shown a lot of things. :)

Even Tim Cook had issues demoing Lion... but hey they are cool and might sell some more ipads so here they are.

Tim Cook didn't demo Lion. But the guy that did had problems that were more related to nervousness and using a magic mouse. A trackpad is a much better input device if you are going to use gestures.

djrod
Feb 22, 2012, 04:03 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

I didn't insinuate that at all. If you read the whole post, I assumed the complaints to be in reference to Mission Control and a lack of "Save As..", neither of which has to do with iOS. Or you could just look at the topic of the thread. My post, and the one I was responding to, were about changes in OS X.

okay, sorry I didn't understand what you were "trying" to say. Reading your post again it still sounds like your comparing the suggestion that "proper computer" to just another complain. "another instance" and "in reference to" are not the same thing.

After your explanation, I think I understand what your trying to say. But a lot of the way mission control works does exist because of iOS. So you can swipe left and right between apps, just like you do on the iPad.

Its just silly. Studies have shown that gesture based controls are a step backwards in usability. Even Tim Cook had issues demoing Lion... but hey they are cool and might sell some more ipads so here they are.

Spaces + gestures in Lion is a big improvement for my workflow since I use spaces A LOT. I like it now more than the way spaces were in SL

jameslmoser
Feb 22, 2012, 04:18 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)



Spaces + gestures in Lion is a big improvement for my workflow since I use spaces A LOT. I like it now more than the way spaces were in SL

Thats your opinion, one that many people, myself included, disagree with whole heartedly.

The majority of software for desktop computers was designed for mouse and keyboard input. Most desktop computers do not have trackpads. For the most part your only option is to buy yet another apple device to use them. Trackpads are not no where near as precise as a mouse pointer and do not work well for a number of tasks.

BaldiMac
Feb 22, 2012, 04:25 PM
The majority of software for desktop computers was designed for mouse and keyboard input. Most desktop computers do not have trackpads.

Sure, but the most computers that run OS X are laptops, which do include a trackpad. :)

jameslmoser
Feb 22, 2012, 04:37 PM
Mission Control came before swiping between apps on the iPad.



Studies have shown a lot of things. :)



Tim Cook didn't demo Lion. But the guy that did had problems that were more related to nervousness and using a magic mouse. A trackpad is a much better input device if you are going to use gestures.


Show me a study saying they are an improvement? If your going to discount fact there is not point in having a discussion about it.

I thought I remembered Tim Cook demoing Lion... if he didn't my mistake. But the guy clearly had problems with GESTURES, which may have made him more nervous... but the problem was clearly gestures.

BaldiMac
Feb 22, 2012, 04:50 PM
Show me a study saying they are an improvement? If your going to discount fact there is not point in having a discussion about it.

What fact? Did you present any studies? Preferably, specifically related to the types of gestures used in OS X. Anecdotally, I can't really see the argument that a swipe in Safari is less efficient than moving my mouse cursor to the back button and clicking it.

I thought I remembered Tim Cook demoing Lion... if he didn't my mistake. But the guy clearly had problems with GESTURES, which may have made him more nervous... but the problem was clearly gestures.

It was Craig Federighi. The problem was obviously the non responsiveness of the Magic Mouse to his gestures. Most likely as a result of his nervousness and the small gesture area.

notrack
Feb 22, 2012, 04:51 PM
The argument "just don't use it" is not valid from my point of view. Some features are gone, have changed or had to be re-customised. E.g. iCal, Adressbook and iWork. Mail did improve though.

One thought on the idea of OSX 10.x "Lockdown". iWork will be able to store files within the app just like on iPad. These files will be synced to iCloud. Files in Finder rather not. So if you want to sync your documents with iPad/iPod/iPhone, you will have to store your files the iPad-style (inside the apps). No alternative afaik.

Using an alternative sync service like Wuala would sync every desired folder from my mac, but I can't access or move files on the iPad to sync them back.

"Most advanced" would be to have a solid file sync across all devices in a useful way. Note-sync and a Sykpe knockoff is nothing new. Selling old stuff as new.

scottsjack
Feb 22, 2012, 05:47 PM
Hear, hear .

It might benefit the discussion, if more people remembered this .
Personally, I also find iOS quite immature, and barely able to run a phone .

Trouble is, as I said before, many comments suggest the posters do not have any need for a proper computer, and the OS required to run it .
If it were up to those users, the MBA would be the last Mac standing - if that .

Fair enough, whatever the masses desire most will succeed - I'd be devestated if I had to switch to Windows, though .

You're exactly right. The people who are happy with just an iPad or maybe just a MBA probably don't need a full-featured computer anyway. Much of the "post PC world" crap is just Apple marketing BS repeated by goose-stepping Apple fans trying really hard to enter the new paradigm.

In reality not many of the people I know really needed a tower PC running a powerful OS like Windows. Those that did are still using towers although for some of us those towers are Mac Pros. Others who almost need full-featured computers but in a more limited way are using iMacs or Minis.

Only one acquaintance is using only an iPhone and an iPad and she never really even needed a laptop. It's those who need powerful, full-featured computers who have the most reservations about the direction that Apple is taking OS X in.

bigjnyc
Feb 22, 2012, 06:38 PM
As long as we have the option to customize and install apps outside the app store I dont really care what they do. Most of the new features that are borrowed from iOS are optional, you dont really have to use them... Some are pretty cool to have on a computer.... They day they lock their laptops down and force you to buy everything from the app store then I'll have an issue but until then I am content with the merging and uniformity of OS's

throAU
Feb 22, 2012, 07:43 PM
It was Craig Federighi. The problem was obviously the non responsiveness of the Magic Mouse to his gestures. Most likely as a result of his nervousness and the small gesture area.

Exactly.

I use gestures all the time, i like them so much i went and bought a magic trackpad (purely for gestures when using my wired keyboard) for when my MBP is on the desk....

roadbloc
Feb 23, 2012, 06:10 AM
I just want to hear what others think cause this has been gnawing at me. I'm not really enjoying the idea that OSX is being converted to be more like iOS. I like the iOS system, but I think OSX should be one thing and iOS should be another and not copies, which is what it seems like their doing with Mountain Lion. I want to go on my computer and feel like I'm on a computer, not a big iPad.

Tough ****, its too late.

KnightWRX
Feb 23, 2012, 07:44 AM
Tough ****, its too late.

It's been too late since 2007, when iOS was known as iPhone OS and it was shipped out in all of its glory as version 1.0. It was already quited joined at the hip with OS X back then.

MonkeySee....
Feb 23, 2012, 07:48 AM
I dont like the idea either :/

Mountain Lion does seem to be a good upgrade though.

You don't like it but you kind of like it.......

ugahairydawgs
Feb 23, 2012, 08:16 AM
I´d gladly pay $129 for a more relaxed version of OS X, by pro I mean there are some users very comfortable with any OS... I want my computers to act my way not your way
dont see it happening anytime soon though, apple is getting more and more obsessed with having the world their way

Oh come on....that's how EVERY company works. They provide a service or product, done their way, and it is up to the consumer to choose if they want to use it.

djrod
Feb 23, 2012, 03:15 PM
Thats your opinion, one that many people, myself included, disagree with whole heartedly.

The majority of software for desktop computers was designed for mouse and keyboard input. Most desktop computers do not have trackpads. For the most part your only option is to buy yet another apple device to use them. Trackpads are not no where near as precise as a mouse pointer and do not work well for a number of tasks.

I don't have a trackpad, I have a Magic mouse so I still have al the benefits of the mouse plus gestures

barmann
Feb 25, 2012, 06:15 PM
Why do I get the feeling that "proper computer" and all the rest of this post is just another instance of trying to complain about Mission Control and a lack of "Save As..." by making it seem to be part of a larger problem? :) I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong!

Um, no, that wasn't what it's been about .

But lack of 'save as' aka Autosave and Versions , to name just one thing, can seriously compromize a workflow, or completely ruin it .
I'm fairly sure anyone who edits images, video, audio etc. knows what I'm talking about.
Editing with Versions enabled by the program and automated saving would be a nightmare , like having Time Machine as the only 'backup' option .

It might not even be related to iOS, but is in the same spirit - an OS controlled user 'experience' , as opposed to a user controlled environment .

No OS really is the latter , but at a certain point it gets too restricting, offers too few options and control to be productive .

BaldiMac
Feb 25, 2012, 06:26 PM
Um, no, that wasn't what it's been about .

But lack of 'save as' aka Autosave and Versions , to name just one thing, can seriously compromize a workflow, or completely ruin it .
I'm fairly sure anyone who edits images, video, audio etc. knows what I'm talking about.
Editing with Versions enabled by the program and automated saving would be a nightmare , like having Time Machine as the only 'backup' option .

It might not even be related to iOS, but is in the same spirit - an OS controlled user 'experience' , as opposed to a user controlled environment .

No OS really is the latter , but at a certain point it gets too restricting, offers too few options and control to be productive .

I'm pretty sure that was exactly my point. :D

KnightWRX
Feb 25, 2012, 08:36 PM
But lack of 'save as' aka Autosave and Versions , to name just one thing, can seriously compromize a workflow, or completely ruin it .
I'm fairly sure anyone who edits images, video, audio etc. knows what I'm talking about.
Editing with Versions enabled by the program and automated saving would be a nightmare , like having Time Machine as the only 'backup' option .

This more than anything tells me you don't understand Autosave and Versions at all.

It has all the same features as Save As/Save, plus the added bonus of not overwriting your whole work when you hit Save.

throAU
Feb 25, 2012, 08:57 PM
Um, no, that wasn't what it's been about .

But lack of 'save as' aka Autosave and Versions , to name just one thing, can seriously compromize a workflow, or completely ruin it .
I'm fairly sure anyone who edits images, video, audio etc. knows what I'm talking about.

On the contrary, you're one of those people who thinks they know what they're talking about, and who thinks that wasting his/her time to do manual version management in a less effective manner than the computer (which will do it automatically for you) is a valid use of their time.

Manual version management only helps you out when you have the foresight to think "right, i'm about to maybe screw up my work, i better save a copy of it". It does nothing to help you with power cuts, operating system crashes, application crashes, or just plain "oops I shouldn't have done that" 5 hours after your last save.

One day (possibly after losing significant amounts of work, and/or getting tired with doing your own version management) you'll get it.

InuNacho
Feb 25, 2012, 10:09 PM
One day (possibly after losing significant amounts of work, and/or getting tired with doing your own version management) you'll get it.

Then they should have left an option for us stupid morons that don't get it.

KnightWRX
Feb 25, 2012, 10:10 PM
Then they should have left an option for us stupid morons that don't get it.

What you don't get is that the option is still there. ;)

InuNacho
Feb 25, 2012, 10:12 PM
What you don't get is that the option is still there. ;)

One that says "Save As" so my neanderthal brain doesn't have to think.

newagemac
Feb 25, 2012, 10:25 PM
One that says "Save As" so my neanderthal brain doesn't have to think.

You do realize that "Duplicate" = "Save As" right? Seriously what is so hard to understand about that?

KnightWRX
Feb 25, 2012, 10:37 PM
One that says "Save As" so my neanderthal brain doesn't have to think.

Duplicate->Save. You'll get the familiar "Save File Dialog". ;)

All that, and you won't lose the benefits brought by Versions.

The keybindings/menu options changed. The functionality is still there.

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 25, 2012, 10:49 PM
Duplicate->Save. You'll get the familiar "Save File Dialog". ;)

All that, and you won't lose the benefits brought by Versions.

The keybindings/menu options changed. The functionality is still there.

^ ^ ^

This. I don't understand all the hooplah over this. It's the same thing it just feels weird trying to replace the new word "duplicate" in place of "save as". Rewiring the brain usually isn't fun.

r0k
Feb 25, 2012, 10:49 PM
One that says "Save As" so my neanderthal brain doesn't have to think.

You do realize that "Duplicate" = "Save As" right? Seriously what is so hard to understand about that?

It really seems like Apple is plowing similar ground that Microsoft covered in Office 2007. When they took away the "file" menu and replaced it with some awful giant windows icon thing then realized their mistake and brought FILE back in Office 2010 and at the same time made it much easier to hide that hideous ribbon. While the rest of the world was killing status bars, menu bars and title bars, the Clueless Ones up in Redmond were trying to figure out ways to waste more screen real estate on such tripe.

It's too early to tell if this whole save-as thing will work or not. I know I got Lion pretty early on and it still bothers me when I use one of the Apple apps and save-as is not right up in my face where it belongs and I have to think a few seconds longer. Those few seconds were my seconds and I could have been using them to do something useful or just relax. The main reason I buy Apple gear is to save time. To me Apple is selling time. When they start taking it back little by little, after a while the value proposition starts to fall apart. This save as thing isn't a huge deal in itself, but it's not a good sign for a company that prides itself on writing software that stays out of the user's way.

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 25, 2012, 10:59 PM
I also hate the lack of a keyboard shortcut for the duplicate function. That's probably what bothers me the most.

SilverBlade
Feb 26, 2012, 01:00 AM
What causes me some concerns is the introduction of Gatekeeper.

Right now, it's just a setting that the user can disable. But what worries me is if Gatekeeper is outright enforced and you *can not* install software outside of the Mac App Store. I do want to *ever* want to have to 'jailbreak' my own Mac in order to install software that I want.

I switched from Windows XP to Mac because I was just blatantly sick of the problems associated with Windows. But if Gatekeeper is outright enforced and I need to jailbreak my own system, I'm blowing away the OSX installation on this thing and installing Windows 7. That would be my 'jailbreak'.

williamdlc
Feb 26, 2012, 02:45 AM
To be honest, I really like OSX Lion, especially how Apple really made good use of the gestures. But the one thing that's kinda turning me off from Mountain Lion is Gatekeeper. I jailbroke my iPhone to get non-Apple authorized apps, and I don't want to "jailbreak" my Macbook just to run third party programs that Apple hasn't approved.

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 26, 2012, 03:27 AM
To be honest, I really like OSX Lion, especially how Apple really made good use of the gestures. But the one thing that's kinda turning me off from Mountain Lion is Gatekeeper. I jailbroke my iPhone to get non-Apple authorized apps, and I don't want to "jailbreak" my Macbook just to run third party programs that Apple hasn't approved.

You can run any app you want. They haven't taken that ability away from you. It's just an extra security feature for users that don't know any better. You can set it to not block anything if you so choose. I highly doubt that will change.

Bloodsmasher
Feb 26, 2012, 05:30 AM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

Actually, if you've seen what Windows 8 looks like, it looks like a big fancy phone. The main screen is like a Nokia and the lockscreen is like any modern smartphone. It looks like a smartphone and my guess is it will be as easy to navigate as one too. I've just had a horrible realisation. You know how your parents/grandparents grew up using DOS and can't use Win 97/XP to save themselves? We are all going to be like that when phones become small computers and computers turn into big PDA's...

cjmillsnun
Feb 26, 2012, 07:08 AM
First.. I know there are many Apple fanboys on this forum, who will defend any step Apple does. I am not interested to get any comments from non-adequate fans. But there are other people who were happy to have OS X as a great alternative to crippled MS Windows.

I did like OS X as it had a great feeling of freedom and simplicity for developing and using software. And now, when Steve is gone, they are starting to kill this unique atmosphere with their attempts to lock the system down and make their expensive and powerful computers just another proprietary and locked entertainment system.

Please do not tell me "Apple will never do that" or "You can disable those restrictions" etc. It's OBVIOUS that Apple is pushing the closed system approach with GateKeeper in OS X.

What do you think about this picture?

http://gizmodo.com/5885837/this-is-how-apple-will-block-unapproved-apps-with-mountain-lions-gatekeeper

That is scary (especially for developers who don't get a chance to be approved by Apple) and is the first sign of a total control. Of course, they cannot force a total control immediately cause they'll get flooded with court cases. BUT!
They will try to push developers and users as much as they can to use AppStore, which is a form of closed and restricted system.

I know it's fine for many MacRumors visitors , but I don't want to convert my Mac in a powerful iPad version. I already have an iPad for entertainment and mobile online activities and it's enough for me.

Apple, please don't make Mac os X a victim of your greed and DRM restrictions! This system was so good to make it locked! And it's based on open-source software. You just have no moral rights to close it and even to attempt to control it fully!

And don't tell me it's about security - it's not. It's all about 30% commission they earn from every app sold and about Apple stock graphs their management is watching daily.

Fans, you can write your usual comments. I know you'll say "don't use it if you don't like it, get away from Apple". That's all you can say.

BULLCRAP. Sorry Gizmodo (A Gawker publication - IE not known for journalistic integrity. This is the same Gizmodo who paid for stolen goods) set that to do it. The default is to allow signed apps (you can do that with a free ADC account and Apple won't vet a single app). I would much rather trust Gruber (http://daringfireball.net/2012/02/mountain_lion) who actually gets the facts.

----------

To be honest, I really like OSX Lion, especially how Apple really made good use of the gestures. But the one thing that's kinda turning me off from Mountain Lion is Gatekeeper. I jailbroke my iPhone to get non-Apple authorized apps, and I don't want to "jailbreak" my Macbook just to run third party programs that Apple hasn't approved.

And you won't have to. You can turn gatekeeper off.

djrod
Feb 26, 2012, 08:06 AM
I also hate the lack of a keyboard shortcut for the duplicate function. That's probably what bothers me the most.

:confused: in ML, at least in Texedit, you do Duplicate using the same keyboard shortcut as the good old Save As

Jagardn
Feb 26, 2012, 08:46 AM
To be honest, I really like OSX Lion, especially how Apple really made good use of the gestures. But the one thing that's kinda turning me off from Mountain Lion is Gatekeeper. I jailbroke my iPhone to get non-Apple authorized apps, and I don't want to "jailbreak" my Macbook just to run third party programs that Apple hasn't approved.

IMO, Gatekeeper will be a great thing for security. If it's enabled, Malware chances are slim to none. If in the rare instance I want to install some 3rd party app, I'll enable it temporarily. It's not like I'm installing 3rd party apps all that often.

KnightWRX
Feb 26, 2012, 08:52 AM
I also hate the lack of a keyboard shortcut for the duplicate function. That's probably what bothers me the most.

Ah good old OS X 101 schooling required I see. You're right. Duplicate has no shortcut in the default state in most apps :

326361

Let's see though what we can do about that using no terminal trickery and bundle hackery. Let's pretend for a moment that we're all some good old ID10Ts when it comes to computers.

So where do we set parameters ? System Preferences. What are we looking for ? Keyboard, and shortcuts. It so happens there's a preference pane for that :

326362

Looking at the menu, there's an All Application entry. Great, we want a common feature accross applications, so it must be in there. Let's try the + button :

326363

Surely it can't be that simple, trying add, it does actually add it :

326364

No way did we fix this little nitpick of yours this easily... checking back textedit without ever having closed/reopened textedit what do we see :

326365

Magical! ;)

A lot of the complaints levied at new features that replace older, less useful features mostly stem from ignorance of how the system works, the new features work or the limitations that have suddenly been fixed in the old ways. It's the same with "All Windows Expose" and "Mission Control", a lot of it is "But now I need to click 3 times instead of 1!" ignoring the fact that those 3 clicks now get you where you want to go faster than that old 1 click.

BaldiMac
Feb 26, 2012, 12:27 PM
It's too early to tell if this whole save-as thing will work or not. I know I got Lion pretty early on and it still bothers me when I use one of the Apple apps and save-as is not right up in my face where it belongs and I have to think a few seconds longer. Those few seconds were my seconds and I could have been using them to do something useful or just relax. The main reason I buy Apple gear is to save time. To me Apple is selling time. When they start taking it back little by little, after a while the value proposition starts to fall apart. This save as thing isn't a huge deal in itself, but it's not a good sign for a company that prides itself on writing software that stays out of the user's way.

People complaining about the change seem to focus on the few seconds lost in the minor differences between "Save As..." and "Duplicate". But what about all the seconds saved with Versions and Auto Save? No more confirming a save whenever you close a document or quit an app. That alone probably saves more time that the occasional "Save As...". And then the first time you actually use Versions to recover from a mistake or outage is just a bonus.

I also hate the lack of a keyboard shortcut for the duplicate function. That's probably what bothers me the most.

As pointed out earlier, you can assign you own keyboard shortcut. And I'm pretty sure I read that ML will map the old "Save As..." shortcut to "Duplicate".

Partron22
Feb 26, 2012, 12:59 PM
People complaining about the change seem to focus on the few seconds lost in the minor differences between "Save As..." and "Duplicate".

Also, files that are not time locked always open hot. If I open a photo I took a few days ago, thus unlocked, and check to see how it looks sideways, Preview will do its damndest to change the files modifed date. That can be inconvenient and disruptive of proper file order. It's a pita to always have to create duplicates and explicitly not save them when all I want to do is see what some minor modifications to an image might look like.
Unlocked files under versions are also overly sensitive to the effects of, for example, a cat on the keyboard. Sure I can probably get the right version back, but if versions hadn't been made mandatory in the first place there wouldn't be a problem in the first place, just a cat-wrecked image in memory.

Gomff
Feb 26, 2012, 01:18 PM
The issues with Duplicate vs Save As (which are not the same thing) could largely be side stepped by simply giving the user the option of one or the other.

Then at least, we'd have the choice of whether we want to use "At Ease 2.0" features or whether we can look after our own file management on our own computers, thanks.

Saying that the developer has the choice whether or not to implement versions is again, not the same thing, because the option is still not in the hands of the user, who also happens to be the customer here.

Partron22
Feb 26, 2012, 01:40 PM
The issues with Duplicate vs Save As (which are not the same thing) could largely be side stepped by simply giving the user the option of one or the other.This. For some purposes, duplicate and versions and autosave are wonderful. They just aren't a good fit to every task involving file management.

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 26, 2012, 02:04 PM
:confused: in ML, at least in Texedit, you do Duplicate using the same keyboard shortcut as the good old Save As

I didn't even look for that in ML. That's good news.

nzacl0
Feb 26, 2012, 02:59 PM
i think ios and os x will always remain different - ios devices are generally for the mass market of people who want to use these devices as a tool and spend the minimum amount of time learning how to use them. os x serves to meet the needs of a much wider range of users - from developers to people who make heavy use of applications to more casual users.

There are differences that will always be there. For example, I don't think you'll ever see windowing systems on an ipad because they simply wouldn't work well, but full screen apps on a mac are a reasonable option for those that want to work that way. So there are differences and some common ground.

But what I dislike is the dumbing down of some features (particularly expose and spaces) in Lion. At least give me the choice of whether I want to have a massive change in the way I work rather than enforcing it on me.

Of course, at the end of the day, if you look at the film Alien, set in 2087 or thereabouts, the computer Mother has a green screen text only interface using capital letters. My guess is that that's the future of all computer interfaces. :)

KnightWRX
Feb 26, 2012, 06:47 PM
Also, files that are not time locked always open hot. If I open a photo I took a few days ago, thus unlocked, and check to see how it looks sideways, Preview will do its damndest to change the files modifed date. That can be inconvenient and disruptive of proper file order. It's a pita to always have to create duplicates and explicitly not save them when all I want to do is see what some minor modifications to an image might look like.
Unlocked files under versions are also overly sensitive to the effects of, for example, a cat on the keyboard. Sure I can probably get the right version back, but if versions hadn't been made mandatory in the first place there wouldn't be a problem in the first place, just a cat-wrecked image in memory.

The difference is, before, if the file modification time got saved, you were basically screwed unless you had the original on Time Machine.

With Versions, you can just grab the original back at any time.

Duplicate and Save As are the same thing btw, no matter how much people don't want them to be. Versions takes nothing away of manual file management, you can still do it.

And it's still quite possible for a developer to give you both Autosave/Versions with Duplicate and the good old "Save As" button, there's nothing preventing it in the Apple frameworks. Ask your software vendor for the option, but really, he'll just tell you "Duplicate and save does the same thing :confused:".

----------

This. For some purposes, duplicate and versions and autosave are wonderful. They just aren't a good fit to every task involving file management.

I have yet to see a task involving File Management that can be done under the old paradigm but can't be done under the new one. And in fact, done better.

Gomff
Feb 26, 2012, 07:10 PM
Duplicate and Save As are not the same thing, no matter how much some people here want you to think they are.....Here's why (again).

1) Open a file
2) Select duplicate.

At this point: Ask yourself....Has anything been saved? Answer is a resounding "No". In order to mimic Save As functionality, you need to perform the following three steps:

3) Select "Save" in the new document's file menu
4) Choose a new name (myfile_01 or whatever)
5) Close the original file that you duplicated.

This is counter intuitive, and awkward compared to:

1) Open a file
2) Select Save As.
3) Choose a new name.

Duplicate requires two more steps, plus the added confusion of having to deal with two identical documents being open. Not a big deal if you only save once in a while, but if you like to iterate a document frequently and don't want to rely on versions which is buggy, clumsy & proprietary then it's a pain in the backside.

Versions, duplicate and Apple's idea of file management in Lion need to be taken round the back and shot in the head, twice just to make sure....And I'm known for being quite a laid back person.:)

It should at least be something the user has the choice to use or not.

Tinyluph
Feb 26, 2012, 07:20 PM
The old "save as" is never coming back, so stop beating a dead horse.

Partron22
Feb 26, 2012, 08:24 PM
The difference is, before, if the file modification time got saved, you were basically screwed unless you had the original on Time Machine.The difference is, with enforced saving of any changes I make, I am automatically screwed, every time I, or my cat, make a change to a document. If I know about the changes, and I want them to be temporary, I can now go back and recover the version I want, but that doesn't change the fact that the OS itself now tries to mess with my file in a way I didn't want.

KnightWRX
Feb 26, 2012, 08:32 PM
The difference is, with enforced saving of any changes I make, I am automatically screwed

That's why there's Versions. You can always revert back any saved changes, whether they be by your cat, your dog, yourself, your spouse or anyone.

What happened before Autosave/Versions if someone overwrited your work ? You had to use the touch command to revert the modification time. Now you can simply navigate back to the right file in Versions.

You're never screwed. Autosave does not exist in a vaccuum. You people need to stop portraying it as such.

Partron22
Feb 26, 2012, 09:10 PM
That's why there's Versions.Versions is why the OS feels free to modify my documents without my consent, and possibly without even my knowledge?
Nope, I don't buy that.
Automatic and faceless saving of changes when a document is closed will likely be a larger source of trouble than intentional and erroneous saving a corrupted document ever was. Versions will make it easier to recover from having saved 'the dissertation the cat slept on', but the autosave will ensure that if something bad happens to your document in memory, it almost always ends up on disk.
Of course, if you copy that file to a memory stick, or anything else that doesn't support versions, you'll be in the same state as a pre-versions user, except that it wasn't anything you did that messed up your file, it was the Mac itself.

wikus
Feb 26, 2012, 09:11 PM
apple wants to have one single os across all devices. if you feel that is bad for you, go back to microsoft :rolleyes:

I'm so glad this got downranked 51 times.

No wait, 52 times... -1 from me.

Prodo123
Feb 26, 2012, 11:42 PM
Just installed Mountain Lion.
As I feared, the thing I hate most about it is the new Safari.
I despise this new tab width. It's throwing me off quite a bit. I also don't like the unibar.
The worst part is, there's no option to revert back to the classic interface!!

Second comment is, the Notification Center gesture cannot be modified, nor can the menubar icon be removed.

Third, it's laggy and unstable, as expected of a DP.

Fourth, to enable Notification Center in applications, you have to open them at least once. After the upgrade, you must open Calendar (iCal has been renamed to Calendar!!) to enable Notification Center for it.

Fifth, iCloud is still buggy.

Sixth, there's no dedicated Gatekeeper setting. It's spread throughout the Security & Privacy prefpane.

Seventh, software updates via MAS is very, very laggy.


iOSification of Mac OS X has soiled a perfectly good OS. It feels very, very dumbed down.

KnightWRX
Feb 27, 2012, 04:10 AM
Versions is why the OS feels free to modify my documents without my consent, and possibly without even my knowledge?
Nope, I don't buy that.
Automatic and faceless saving of changes when a document is closed

Uh ? Autosave/Versions doesn't play around with your documents when they are closed, what are you on about ? :confused:

Are you making stuff up ?

BaldiMac
Feb 27, 2012, 07:36 AM
Just installed Mountain Lion.
As I feared, the thing I hate most about it is the new Safari.
I despise this new tab width. It's throwing me off quite a bit. I also don't like the unibar.
The worst part is, there's no option to revert back to the classic interface!!

Second comment is, the Notification Center gesture cannot be modified, nor can the menubar icon be removed.

Third, it's laggy and unstable, as expected of a DP.

Fourth, to enable Notification Center in applications, you have to open them at least once. After the upgrade, you must open Calendar (iCal has been renamed to Calendar!!) to enable Notification Center for it.

Fifth, iCloud is still buggy.

Sixth, there's no dedicated Gatekeeper setting. It's spread throughout the Security & Privacy prefpane.

Seventh, software updates via MAS is very, very laggy.

Complaining about bugs and incomplete features in a developer preview in a forum is just silly.

iOSification of Mac OS X has soiled a perfectly good OS. It feels very, very dumbed down.

Every time someone makes this statement, I ask the following question. What features have been brought from iOS into ML that are bad for a desktop OS?

I haven't got a single answer yet. Makes me think people are just repeating some propaganda they heard without think it through.

Partron22
Feb 27, 2012, 07:43 AM
Are you not seeing the problems for the newness?

Try this:
Open a Pages document.
Type a few letters at the end of the sentence.
Close the window.
Quit pages or not, it makes no difference.
reopen the Pages doc.
The letters you typed are there. Saved with no warning to the user whatsoever.

If I make a duplicate of the doc after opening and then type a bit, it does supply a "do you want to save changes". dialog.
That's not good enough. There needs to be at lest an explicing warning, or a way to turn off the faulty behavior.

As implemented, editing an original copy of a doc in Pages is a lot like editing an application's resource file in the old ResEdit. Documents are hot, any and all changes will be saved, and precautions need to be taken to protect the document from change.

ResEdit warning from 2007:You need to be handy with ResEdit in order to tweak the Finder, and of course ALWAYS work with a COPY. (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1100131?start=0&tstart=0)
ResEdit retired with System 9, but the 'always work with a copy' caveat has become relevent again because of Apple's implementation of autosave and versions. It's a pain in the ass to remember to always work with a copy, even if I'm only looking.,

KnightWRX
Feb 27, 2012, 08:20 AM
Are you not seeing the problems for the newness?

Yes, I'm seeing the problem for the newness. Newness brings a lot of whining and complaints about things that changed, but are now better. The actual steps to achieve a result are now different, but the process is more flexible and permissive of error. Some users don't tolerate change, even for the better though and are quite vocal about it, 6 months later. They will probably never get over it and their lives are forever ruined if you believe what they say.

Try this:
Open a Pages document.
Type a few letters at the end of the sentence.
Close the window.
Quit pages or not, it makes no difference.
reopen the Pages doc.
The letters you typed are there. Saved with no warning to the user whatsoever.

Hum... how is that a problem ? It would be without Versions to rollback those automatically saved changes. With Versions, if you really didn't want the changes made, you roll it back. Simple as that.

Prior to Versions, if you had accidently hit "Yes" on the dialog upon quitting, guess what, you were screwed unless you had a backup. Prior to Autosave, if you hit no upon quitting, you were screwed unless... well no, you were just screwed and had to do the modifications over.

Now I see I mistook your "closed". Autosave/Versions doesn't mess with closed documents, but you weren't talking about that, you were talking about when you are closing a document after some changes you didn't want. Now you have to revert those changes instead of just closing the window. It's an extra step, but one that provides much greater resiliency against data loss.

In the end, the same result is achieved.

Partron22
Feb 27, 2012, 09:26 AM
Hum... how is that a problem ?It's a problem because when I open and modify a document, purposefully or accidentally, I don't always want to save those changes.
The system now insists that I save any changes that are made to a document. Sure, Apple implemented document locking to cover up this problem with older files, but they left new files vulnerable. Heck, you can even set document locking back to a year after last changed in Time Machine prefs. Ever wonder why you can't turn off locking easily? This is why. It'll leave your files open to automatic changes every time they're opened as documents.

That's a year during which your files are open to corruption by the simple process of moving, not copying, the file to between hard drives. As we should all know, versions don't live through that process.

IMHO, this is not a feature, it's a bug, and one we didn't have before Apple enforced autosave.

Maybe your files aren't important enough to care about such things, but mine are.
Shiny-newness aside, the new system does not protect file content as well as the old.

Spend a little time trying to understand why autosave didn't become universal in the 80's. It's always been easy to implement on a Mac. A journalling file system covers up some of the problems for autosave, but as currently implemented it's an inadequate substitute for user intent and action.

newagemac
Feb 27, 2012, 09:39 AM
At the end of the day, it really all boils down to some people just not able to adapt to change all that well even if the changes are better.

If the way things are in Lion are the way things had always been and then Apple introduced the SL behavior, these people would still be pretty upset.

In other words, if Apple introduced a new OS saying, "although your Operating System has been performing autosaving and versioning tasks for you for decades, we now are going to make you remember to save every few minutes. We are also going to make you have to keep your own versions. We are removing all of these smart features that you are accustomed to the OS taking care of for you and forcing you to do them yourself for now on with no other options."

I can guarantee you that if that was the situation, these same people would be complaining about that being a step backwards. But then at least they would have a point.

So it's really all about some people not having the ability to adapt to change. The sad thing is I bet many of them complaining are quite young. I can see someone in their 70's not wanting to adapt to change (even for the better) anymore. But someone in their 40's or 50's and supposedly professional?

You must really be looking forward to be pushed out by the younger, more efficient and productive people coming along who aren't attached to old computing paradigms.

But of course this is how things have always worked in history. There are people who said they would stick to horses instead of cars, people who said a GUI was a "step backwards", and people who laughed at the thought of graphic design, typography, and layout going digital.

But technology keeps moving forward, some people get left behind, productivity increases, and history continues to repeat itself.

KnightWRX
Feb 27, 2012, 09:41 AM
It's a problem because when I open and modify a document, purposefully or accidentally, I don't always want to save those changes.
The system now insists that I save any changes that are made to a document. Sure, Apple implemented document locking to cover up this problem with older files, but they left new files vulnerable.

Files are not vulnerable thanks to Versions. Autosave on its own would definately be evil. With Versions it's a big non-issue.

You again don't have to deal with the changes, you can always revert the document thanks to Versions. A point you keep ignoring.

Again, the steps have changed, the result is the same, the added protection and functionality is much better than it used to be without nothing lost.

At the end of the day, it really all boils down to some people just not able to adapt to change all that well even if the changes are better.

Exactly. It's like people whining that their old screw driver set is better than the new fangled multi-bit electric screwdriver, because you didn't have to charge the battery or mess around with head bits.

Partron22
Feb 27, 2012, 10:52 AM
Files are not vulnerable thanks to Versions. Autosave on its own would definately be evil.I just showed you how new (not yet locked) files are vulnerable to silently being changed by the OS via autosave, with or without versions. Are you deliberately not paying attention to a real issue, or do you just not care that your files are more vulnerable under the new system than the old?

-An uncaught version save, plus a file transfer between disks -> a damaged file you may not even know about until it's too late.
That's not innovation or progress, it's a new way to screw up that people should be made aware of.

KnightWRX
Feb 27, 2012, 11:09 AM
I just showed you how new (not yet locked) files are vulnerable to silently being changed by the OS via autosave, with or without versions. Are you deliberately not paying attention to a real issue, or do you just not care that your files are more vulnerable under the new system than the old?

You showed me nothing except your failure to grasp the changes can be reverted with Versions. You'll always have that original. Something that can't be said if you hit "Save" by accident in the past.

Your scenarios are becoming more and more imaginative I'll grant you that.

Though I think it's quite time we put this discussion to rest. Obviously, 6 months later, I'm not the one who's going to convince you to let it go. This has definately ruined your life.

Partron22
Feb 27, 2012, 11:55 AM
You showed me nothing except your failure to grasp the changes can be reverted with Versions. You'll always have that original.Not when you move that file to a different disk.
How often did you actually lose files before versions came along?
Every few years, or were you not competent to handle your own file system?

Versions is nice, it offers a convenient recovery from accidental error.
However, the implementation of autosave practically gaurantees a higher incidence of erroneous saves. The end user is unlikely to even know about some of those saves until perhaps months pass, and the files have ported off to some secondary drive, and thus permanently damaged.

Do you not grasp that versions is not universal?
That leaves autosave functioning on non-autolocked files in exactly the way you proclaimed was 'evil' a few posts back.

With users of any competence, we're talking rare events here, but that doesn't mean we should meekly accept Apple's decision to expose our data to an entirely new and unexpected source of corruption.

---
I'm done here. You go ahead and post 4 or 5 times. I think anyone willing to listen understands my point about autosave/versions opening a new avenue to file corruption.
If not, they can find out for themselves when a critical file they backed up somewhere in a safe place turns up corrupted when they need it most.

KnightWRX
Feb 27, 2012, 12:09 PM
Not when you move that file to a different disk.


So what happens if you forget to save changes you want, move the file to a new disk and never notice and delete the original in the old way ? Same thing.

The fact that Versions/Autosave is not full proof doesn't mean the old way was. You can stretch and come up with scenarios all you want, there's probably dozens more on the other side since Autosave/Versions brings a lot of goodness on top of duplicating (pun intended) the functionality of the old way.

It's just how computing is. Either you learn to adapt, or you get to switch platforms/stick with old versions. Personally, I'd rather adapt and learn new things.

Now I'll just move you to the same place Gomff is, my ignore list. People who refuse to move on and just want to gripe belong there.

Jagardn
Feb 27, 2012, 12:10 PM
With users of any competence, we're talking rare events here, but that doesn't mean we should meekly accept Apple's decision to expose our data to an entirely new and unexpected source of corruption

I'm pretty sure Windows still works the way you want. :p

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 27, 2012, 12:14 PM
So what happens if you forget to save changes you want, move the file to a new disk and never notice and delete the original in the old way ? Same thing.

The fact that Versions/Autosave is not full proof doesn't mean the old way was. You can stretch and come up with scenarios all you want, there's probably dozens more on the other side since Autosave/Versions brings a lot of goodness on top of duplicating (pun intended) the functionality of the old way.

It's just how computing is. Either you learn to adapt, or you get to switch platforms/stick with old versions. Personally, I'd rather adapt and learn new things.

Now I'll just move you to the same place Gomff is, my ignore list. People who refuse to move on and just want to gripe belong there.

Some people just feel the need to complain about something. That must be a tiresome chore.

newagemac
Feb 27, 2012, 12:17 PM
I just showed you how new (not yet locked) files are vulnerable to silently being changed by the OS via autosave, with or without versions. Are you deliberately not paying attention to a real issue, or do you just not care that your files are more vulnerable under the new system than the old?

-An uncaught version save, plus a file transfer between disks -> a damaged file you may not even know about until it's too late.
That's not innovation or progress, it's a new way to screw up that people should be made aware of.

What I believe you are missing is that knowing the way it now operates, you simply won't edit a file if you don't plan on keeping the changes. Or if for some reason you do decide to edit a file without planning on keeping the changes, you will just revert to the previous version afterwards.

That's just an adaptation in workflow. That's all. But the beauty of Autosave/Versions is that you can make multiple changes and have multiple versions to compare against and can do it side by side with full copy and paste ability and STILL have the opportunity to go back to the original when you are done. That is more powerful than the current workflow of testing some changes on a document.

But still if you already know you don't plan to keep some changes, the new workflow is to duplicate the file first rather than working on top of the real one. That makes a whole lot of sense in my book and gives you more options as well due to Versions allowing you to make comparisons between multiple tests.

bedifferent
Feb 27, 2012, 12:54 PM
Some people just feel the need to complain about something. That must be a tiresome chore.

Oh, the irony ;)

Gomff
Feb 27, 2012, 01:12 PM
Now I'll just move you to the same place Gomff is, my ignore list. People who refuse to move on and just want to gripe belong there.

I consider it an honor to be on KnightWRX's ignore list! Felt like.......Victory!

Incidentally, despite his vociferous defence of versions, in his own words, he's never used it according to this thread: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14104043#post14104043

Where he comes out with this revelation: "Frankly, it's been one big non-issue for me as I've yet to even run into software that implements Versions."


I rest my case.

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 27, 2012, 01:12 PM
Oh, the irony ;)

;)

bedifferent
Feb 27, 2012, 01:16 PM
I consider it an honor to be on KnightWRX's ignore list! Felt like.......Victory!


You and half of MacRumors ;)

Gemütlichkeit
Feb 27, 2012, 01:57 PM
I want mountain lion to be more terminal based. [/sarcasm]

xgman
Feb 27, 2012, 02:00 PM
I want mountain lion to be more terminal based. [/sarcasm]


I will simply not be happy until Terminal is "Swipe to Unlock"! :D

archipellago
Feb 27, 2012, 02:04 PM
Gizmodo hate it...

http://gizmodo.com/5888597/mountain-lion-review-what-happened-to-apples-innovation

thundersteele
Feb 27, 2012, 04:05 PM
Gizmodo hate it...

http://gizmodo.com/5888597/mountain-lion-review-what-happened-to-apples-innovation

Interesting article. While of course it is a bit exaggerated, it makes one important point: There is no innovation in ML. Copying over features from iOS might in some cases make sense, and maybe even improves some aspects of the OS. But it is not innovating.
Apple might think that the development of the desktop is mostly finished - which usually would mean that some other company will take over eventually.

One other complaint that I agree with is the design/layout of some apps. iCal looks terrible, already in Lion! And a note taking app does not have to look like a legal pad!

On the other hand, one should not underestimate Apple... not yet at least!

BaldiMac
Feb 27, 2012, 04:11 PM
While of course it is a bit exaggerated, it makes one important point: There is no innovation in ML.

Especially if you close your eyes and pretend that all the innovations that are in ML don't exist. It helps if you yell "LALALALALALALALALA..." while you are pretending.

Mackilroy
Feb 27, 2012, 04:15 PM
<snip>
Eh, I feel the same about Versions and I've used it frequently. Anecdotal evidence is wonderful. :)

And Gomff, you're on far more ignore lists than just his. ;)

It's funny, the people who dislike Lion and Mountain Lion either say it's changed too much or not enough. You can't have it both ways, folks.

Tinyluph
Feb 27, 2012, 04:16 PM
Gizmodo hate it...

http://gizmodo.com/5888597/mountain-lion-review-what-happened-to-apples-innovation

I'm surprised Gizmodo managed to post something longer than 140 characters.

LiesForTheLiars
Feb 27, 2012, 04:17 PM
Gizmodo hate it...

http://gizmodo.com/5888597/mountain-lion-review-what-happened-to-apples-innovation

Gizmodo is on the bottom of the totem pole as far as I'm concerned. They're probably still butt-burt that Apple didn't allow them to their press conference.

thundersteele
Feb 27, 2012, 04:26 PM
Especially if you close your eyes and pretend that all the innovations that are in ML don't exist. It helps if you yell "LALALALALALALALALA..." while you are pretending.

What is innovative? There are new features, and at least some of them are good. I think it will be a good OS, and an improvement over Lion.

There is some potential for innovation in the iCloud implementation and the way we interact with the file system. But the rest is just copying of (good) iOS features.

Maybe it's time for OS 11.

Carl Sagan
Feb 27, 2012, 04:29 PM
Ain't they the same blog that Apple have cast out after the whole iPhone 4 thing?

ScottishCaptain
Feb 27, 2012, 04:59 PM
Ain't they the same blog that Apple have cast out after the whole iPhone 4 thing?

You mean that time where they purchased stolen property, then proceeded to take it apart so they could post pictures all over the internet? Or when they tried to contact the poor guy who lost the thing just to rub the whole ordeal in his face even more?

Or that other time when they took TV-B-Gone units to CES, and actively disrupted the trade show displays of numerous companies, going so far as to even disrupt the keynote presentations?

Those people?

Yeah, that's them.

-SC

Gomff
Feb 27, 2012, 05:49 PM
And Gomff, you're on far more ignore lists than just his. ;)


I guess it beats yelling "LALALALALALALALALA..." every time I post ;)

Truthfully, it doesn't bother me at all. In some cases, (like with KnightWRX) it's preferable. If you were to join your brothers in ignorance, I wouldn't be offended.:)

Night Spring
Feb 27, 2012, 06:13 PM
I just realized that several pages of this thread is taken up with discussions of the pros and cons of versions, but the title of this thread is "I don't wan't OSX to be like iOS."

Like it or hate it, versions doesn't even exist in iOS. How did this thread wander so off-topic?

Mackilroy
Feb 27, 2012, 06:56 PM
I just realized that several pages of this thread is taken up with discussions of the pros and cons of versions, but the title of this thread is "I don't wan't OSX to be like iOS."

Like it or hate it, versions doesn't even exist in iOS. How did this thread wander so off-topic?
Any thread that even mentions iOS and OS X in the same breath usually gets mobbed by the 'Lion sucks and I'm sticking to Snow Leopard' crowd.

throAU
Feb 27, 2012, 07:14 PM
Duplicate and Save As are not the same thing, no matter how much some people here want you to think they are.....Here's why (again).

1) Open a file
2) Select duplicate.

At this point: Ask yourself....Has anything been saved? Answer is a resounding "No". three steps:


Actually, you're wrong. It is saved at this point.

Until you select a name for it, state is saved in the app anyway - you can quit the app, reboot, etc - and your work is saved automagically. Just re-open the app, and it is there.

There's just no named file on the filesystem yet (well, there probably is, but...) because.... you haven't given it one.

----------

Are you not seeing the problems for the newness?

Try this:
Open a Pages document.
Type a few letters at the end of the sentence.
Close the window.
Quit pages or not, it makes no difference.
reopen the Pages doc.
The letters you typed are there. Saved with no warning to the user whatsoever.

Go into versions and retrieve the version from the exact date? If you have a "finished" version of the document you don't want to do this, perhaps lock it?


Erring on the side of saving work, when old versions can easily be retrieved is far preferable to losing your work due to user error or soft/hardware failure.

bedifferent
Feb 27, 2012, 08:27 PM
Erring on the side of saving work, when old versions can easily be retrieved is far preferable to losing your work due to user error or soft/hardware failure.

As versions are saved on the same drive, if your hardware fails so goes all your data. The best way to be safe is to use "Time Machine" hourly backups on another drive. Your "versions" are saved and you won't have to worry bout drive failure. Simply open a pervious version of your document from "Time Machine" and restore it to where ever you please. Presto! :)

(also better if your programming and don't want to have to weed through numerous versions as much coding is temporarily kept by most and only saved when the individual wants. Imagine going through tons of lines of code from hourly versions to get to the document you DO want, not fun)

KnightWRX
Feb 27, 2012, 08:42 PM
As versions are saved on the same drive, if your hardware fails so goes all your data.

Not all hardware failures involve the hard drive or cause data loss in the same way. Sometimes, a hardware induced Kernel panic can cause a few minutes up to a few hours of lost work "NOOO!!!! shoulda saved!!! :mad:". No more with Autosave. Didn't want those modifications ? Versions is there.

Gomff
Feb 28, 2012, 04:46 AM
Actually, you're wrong. It is saved at this point.

Until you select a name for it, state is saved in the app anyway - you can quit the app, reboot, etc - and your work is saved automagically. Just re-open the app, and it is there.



A temporary saved state is not the same thing, and only serves to confuse the issue of whether a file is actually saved or not. Unless a document has a file name and a location in the file system (that I can find), it's not saved in my book.

----------

Any thread that even mentions iOS and OS X in the same breath usually gets mobbed by the 'Lion sucks and I'm sticking to Snow Leopard' crowd.

At which point, the head buried in the sand, "everything Apple do is for my own good, problem - what problem?" crowd ride into town.;)

BaldiMac
Feb 28, 2012, 07:48 AM
What is innovative? There are new features, and at least some of them are good. I think it will be a good OS, and an improvement over Lion.

There is some potential for innovation in the iCloud implementation and the way we interact with the file system. But the rest is just copying of (good) iOS features.

Maybe it's time for OS 11.

This argument is just silly. I'm not getting into the whole cycle where I name an innovative feature and you come up with some feature that's similar in another operating system. It's a useless argument.

Innovation comes not only in the implementation of new and unique features (which is more specifically referred to as invention), but also in the way those features are implemented and the methods used to implement them. If you seriously can't come up with a single innovation in ML, then you are just being willfully ignorant.

Mackilroy
Feb 28, 2012, 03:34 PM
At which point, the head buried in the sand, "everything Apple do is for my own good, problem - what problem?" crowd ride into town.;)
You're confusing LTD with KnightWRX. ;)

Prodo123
Feb 28, 2012, 04:05 PM
Complaining about bugs and incomplete features in a developer preview in a forum is just silly.
I said "as expected of a DP" if you missed it.

Every time someone makes this statement, I ask the following question. What features have been brought from iOS into ML that are bad for a desktop OS?

I haven't got a single answer yet. Makes me think people are just repeating some propaganda they heard without think it through.

1. "Natural scrolling" When you scroll down on a laptop, you expect the page to scroll down, not up.

2. Gigantic Safari tabs. Displaywide tabs might have been good for a 7" wide screen but for a 12" wide screen, it's just a horrible implementation of tabs.

3. Notification center's implementation. Like I said, Growl's implementation is much better, with an overlay instead of a screen push-away.

4. Launchpad. Dumbest idea ever especially when we have the Applications folder and/or Quicksilver.

5. Dumbing down of utilities like Airport Utility. Seriously? I have to download a legacy version of Airport Utility to change certain basic settings on my Time Capsule, but can't use iCloud with it?

6. Mac App Store. iOS doesn't have firmware updates provided through its App Store; why should Macs do so? Why should developers have to give 30% of their profit to Apple just so they can implement iCloud and Notification Center? It's not like the Mac App Store popularizes new apps like App Store does. Sooner or later a hacker is going to crack Notification Center so that it can be used by any app but the current rules are just too ridiculous. (Although the app discovery portion of MAS is somewhat neat)

7. Loss of physical media. I'm gonna get flamed on this one. Software suites like iWork and iLife will soon be exclusively digital, as Mountain Lion is also (although you can burn the ESD DMG to a USB like Lion). What if your internet is throttled and/or have slow internet? Monthly caps? Not all of us have fast internet with unlimited usage, and for those of us who use satellite internet or DSL, if internet is down, physical media would be very useful.

8. Notes and Stickies as separate applications. Redundant, don't you think?

9. Messages wasting so much space, and the inability to see the full friends list in fullscreen mode.

10. Game Center. Steam and Origin really will drive this new app to oblivion.

11. New skins. Does iCal / Calendar really have to look like a paper calendar with a faux leather binding? Isn't a simple unified interface a much better option, not to mention more eye pleasing?

12. Gatekeeper. I'm sure there's been extensive debates about this so I won't even explain this one.

BaldiMac
Feb 28, 2012, 04:22 PM
I said "as expected of a DP" if you missed it.

:rolleyes: Only in reference to being laggy and unstable.

1. "Natural scrolling" When you scroll down on a laptop, you expect the page to scroll down, not up.

2. Gigantic Safari tabs. Displaywide tabs might have been good for a 7" wide screen but for a 12" wide screen, it's just a horrible implementation of tabs.

3. Notification center's implementation. Like I said, Growl's implementation is much better, with an overlay instead of a screen push-away.

4. Launchpad. Dumbest idea ever especially when we have the Applications folder and/or Quicksilver.

5. Dumbing down of utilities like Airport Utility. Seriously? I have to download a legacy version of Airport Utility to change certain basic settings on my Time Capsule, but can't use iCloud with it?

6. Mac App Store. iOS doesn't have firmware updates provided through its App Store; why should Macs do so? Why should developers have to give 30% of their profit to Apple just so they can implement iCloud and Notification Center? It's not like the Mac App Store popularizes new apps like App Store does. Sooner or later a hacker is going to crack Notification Center so that it can be used by any app but the current rules are just too ridiculous. (Although the app discovery portion of MAS is somewhat neat)

7. Loss of physical media. I'm gonna get flamed on this one. Software suites like iWork and iLife will soon be exclusively digital, as Mountain Lion is also (although you can burn the ESD DMG to a USB like Lion). What if your internet is throttled and/or have slow internet? Monthly caps? Not all of us have fast internet with unlimited usage, and for those of us who use satellite internet or DSL, if internet is down, physical media would be very useful.

8. Notes and Stickies as separate applications. Redundant, don't you think?

9. Messages wasting so much space, and the inability to see the full friends list in fullscreen mode.

10. Game Center. Steam and Origin really will drive this new app to oblivion.

11. New skins. Does iCal / Calendar really have to look like a paper calendar with a faux leather binding? Isn't a simple unified interface a much better option, not to mention more eye pleasing?

12. Gatekeeper. I'm sure there's been extensive debates about this so I won't even explain this one.

Wow. Maybe you didn't actually read my question. Of those, only Game Center and the different tabs came from iOS to ML. And you don't actually say why Game Center is a bad feature for a desktop OS to have.

Prodo123
Feb 28, 2012, 05:01 PM
:rolleyes: Only in reference to being laggy and unstable.



Wow. Maybe you didn't actually read my question. Of those, only Game Center and the different tabs came from iOS to ML. And you don't actually say why Game Center is a bad feature for a desktop OS to have.

Now I'm really starting to wonder just how many people don't read what others write, as you're not the first person to do so.

Natural scrolling, Safari's new UI, Launchpad (from SpringBoard), AirPort Utility (iOS UI), MAS (App Store), Loss of digital media (iOS is purely digital download based), Messages's waste of space (from iOS's full screen apps), Notes (Notes.app on iOS), Game Center, iCal / Calendar's ugly new skin (from iOS design philosophy of realism), Notification Center, and Gatekeeper (iOS's refusal to run unauthorized code, except more liberal) all came from iOS.

Then there's useful features that were ported such as Find My Mac and AirPlay, but they're very hard to come by.

Not only are some of these features classifiable as crapware that clutter up their system (Game Center for Steam/Origin users, Notes for Stickies fanatics, Launchpad) and unnecessary restrictions that impede the freedom of use (Gatekeeper, MAS), some are just flat out inconvenient (Safari, natural scrolling) and/or eyesores (iCal).

Much better 3rd party applications can substitute for Apple-provided ones. Some examples of these apps are Growl, Steam, Evernote, Chrome, etc. If ML users continue to use these solutions instead of Apple's, the new features will become unused code that take up space.

KnightWRX
Feb 28, 2012, 05:18 PM
You're confusing LTD with KnightWRX. ;)

I don't know how some people can even begin to call me an Apple fanboy, someone that thinks "everything Apple does is right!". :confused:

They must not read my posts.

----------

Safari's new UI

Copied from Google Chrome, the now 2nd most popular browser. What does that have to do with iOS ? iOS still even lacks the "Omnibar" which is about the greatest thing ever (I actually miss it when I switch to Firefox on my work Linux VM).

AirPort Utility (iOS UI)

Did you miss Airport Utility 5.6, released at the same exact time as Airport utility 6.0 ?

Much better 3rd party applications can substitute for Apple-provided ones. Some examples of these apps are Growl

Growl is a pain, albeit, a necessary one these days. I personally can't wait for Notification Center to replace it.

Prodo123
Feb 28, 2012, 05:23 PM
Copied from Google Chrome, the now 2nd most popular browser. What does that have to do with iOS ? iOS still even lacks the "Omnibar" which is about the greatest thing ever (I actually miss it when I switch to Firefox on my work Linux VM).
I was ranting about the tabs, which were copied from the iPad.
I have disliked the omnibar, but it's not as annoying as the tabs.


Did you miss Airport Utility 5.6, released at the same exact time as Airport utility 6.0 ?
I already said the division of features between AirPort Utility 5.6 and 6.0 are a pain.
Although I failed to mention that if I have to change something major, I have to open both versions, so I understand what you are trying to say.


Growl is a pain, albeit, a necessary one these days. I personally can't wait for Notification Center to replace it.
Like I said before, Growl just looks better. I don't have to be distracted by my entire screen moving to the left. A semitransparent overlay similar to Growl's default skin and Little Snitch's network monitor would be perfect; maybe a blur-behind like the Silver Aerogel for Terminal could complement it, but the current implementation of Notification Center is disrupting workflow.
Although I agree Growl can be hard to deal with at times, I'd still choose it over Notification Center for now.

BaldiMac
Feb 28, 2012, 07:30 PM
Now I'm really starting to wonder just how many people don't read what others write, as you're not the first person to do so.

Natural scrolling, Safari's new UI, Launchpad (from SpringBoard), AirPort Utility (iOS UI), MAS (App Store), Loss of digital media (iOS is purely digital download based), Messages's waste of space (from iOS's full screen apps), Notes (Notes.app on iOS), Game Center, iCal / Calendar's ugly new skin (from iOS design philosophy of realism), Notification Center, and Gatekeeper (iOS's refusal to run unauthorized code, except more liberal) all came from iOS.

Then there's useful features that were ported such as Find My Mac and AirPlay, but they're very hard to come by.

Not only are some of these features classifiable as crapware that clutter up their system (Game Center for Steam/Origin users, Notes for Stickies fanatics, Launchpad) and unnecessary restrictions that impede the freedom of use (Gatekeeper, MAS), some are just flat out inconvenient (Safari, natural scrolling) and/or eyesores (iCal).

Much better 3rd party applications can substitute for Apple-provided ones. Some examples of these apps are Growl, Steam, Evernote, Chrome, etc. If ML users continue to use these solutions instead of Apple's, the new features will become unused code that take up space.

Again, my question was about features that came from iOS to Mountain Lion (not Lion) that are bad for a desktop OS to have. The only legitimate complaint that you had that addressed this question was the new tab layout, which is pretty pedantic considering your original statement.

Most of your complaints come down to "I don't like it or want to use it so it's crap." or "I'll just pretend that software actually impedes my freedom of use even though I know if doesn't and hope nobody notices."

Prodo123
Feb 28, 2012, 07:33 PM
Again, my question was about features that came from iOS to Mountain Lion (not Lion) that are bad for a desktop OS to have. The only legitimate complaint that you had that addressed this question was the new tab layout, which is pretty pedantic considering your original statement.

Most of your complaints come down to "I don't like it or want to use it so it's crap." or "I'll just pretend that software actually impedes my freedom of use even though I know if doesn't and hope nobody notices."

Not only are some of these features classifiable as crapware that clutter up the system (Game Center for Steam/Origin users, Notes for Stickies fanatics, Launchpad) and unnecessary restrictions that impede the freedom of use (Gatekeeper, MAS), some are just flat out inconvenient (Safari, natural scrolling) and/or eyesores (iCal).
Since you refuse to actually read what I write, I see no point in responding to you any further.

BaldiMac
Feb 28, 2012, 07:36 PM
Like I said before, Growl just looks better. I don't have to be distracted by my entire screen moving to the left. A semitransparent overlay similar to Growl's default skin and Little Snitch's network monitor would be perfect; maybe a blur-behind like the Silver Aerogel for Terminal could complement it, but the current implementation of Notification Center is disrupting workflow.
Although I agree Growl can be hard to deal with at times, I'd still choose it over Notification Center for now.

Notifications work pretty much the same as Growl in Mountain Lion. I think you are confusing the notification center with the actual notifications.

----------

Since you refuse to actually read what I write, I see no point in responding to you any further.

:confused: Can you really not read what I wrote? I'm not sure how to be any clearer.

Prodo123
Feb 28, 2012, 07:36 PM
Notifications work pretty much the same as Growl in Mountain Lion. I think you are confusing the notification center with the actual notifications.

Never did I say that they work similarly nor differently. I simply said that Growl looks better, and that the Notifiation Center slide-in would look much nicer as an overlay.
If you want me to show a proof of concept then I can whip one up fast.


:confused: Can you really not read what I wrote? I'm not sure how to be any clearer.
So would you prefer a desktop OS to have crapware, tons of restrictions, and inconvenient interface?
You asked which iOS features that were ported to ML would damage the desktop experience. I listed 12, around 10 of which would be valid, then listed all the ways they are detrimental to the desktop OS experience.
I don't know how to be any clearer.

BaldiMac
Feb 28, 2012, 08:08 PM
Never did I say that they work similarly nor differently. I simply said that Growl looks better, and that the Notifiation Center slide-in would look much nicer as an overlay.
If you want me to show a proof of concept then I can whip one up fast.

Okay. Seemed like you were comparing the notification center implementation to Growl.

So would you prefer a desktop OS to have crapware,

Features that you personally don't use are not crapware. Can you not see the benefits to users of iOS to sync and integrate with their Macs?

tons of restrictions,

Again, your restrictions are completely made up.

and inconvenient interface?

Neither scrolling direction is "correct." And it's completely configurable, so what's the complaint?

You asked which iOS features that were ported to ML would damage the desktop experience. I listed 12, around 10 of which would be valid, then listed all the ways they are detrimental to the desktop OS experience.

Again, I asked specifically about Mountain Lion, not Lion. Five of your points were about Lion. Three complaints had nothing to do with the iOS implementation. One had nothing to do with Mountain Lion at all. One was about keeping the Stickies app around??? And one was simply a complaint that third party software is going to win (I'm not sure why that is a complaint, since the third party software doesn't actually accomplish the same thing.)

Leaving the relevant, if pedantic, Safari tabs complaint.

KnightWRX
Feb 28, 2012, 08:11 PM
I was ranting about the tabs, which were copied from the iPad.
I have disliked the omnibar, but it's not as annoying as the tabs.

What's wrong with the tabs ? And really, what don't you like about the omnibar ? Why should we have a textfield for search and one for URLs when 1 textfield can do both ?

I often find myself typing up search queries in Firefox' address bar nowadays. Really annoying.

I already said the division of features between AirPort Utility 5.6 and 6.0 are a pain.
Although I failed to mention that if I have to change something major, I have to open both versions, so I understand what you are trying to say.

And if you want my opinion : both suck. Airport utility was always a useless piece of crapware to begin with. Airport Utility 5.6 is the same as the old version, use that if you want to retain the "power", but frankly, you have little of it to begin with.

My Airport Extreme is stuck as an AP because of Apple's unflexible configuration options. It's really sad when a 30$ Dlink manages to do more than a 170$ piece of Apple equipment. Not to mention that reliability of the thing has been shody since the last 2 firmwares. My GF constantly whined about disconnections until I switched her default wireless AP to the Dlink 802.11n I use as a NAT box.

Really regret getting the thing.

Prodo123
Feb 28, 2012, 08:16 PM
What's wrong with the tabs ? And really, what don't you like about the omnibar ? Why should we have a textfield for search and one for URLs when 1 textfield can do both ?

I often find myself typing up search queries in Firefox' address bar nowadays. Really annoying.



And if you want my opinion : both suck. Airport utility was always a useless piece of crapware to begin with. Airport Utility 5.6 is the same as the old version, use that if you want to retain the "power", but frankly, you have little of it to begin with.

My Airport Extreme is stuck as an AP because of Apple's unflexible configuration options. It's really sad when a 30$ Dlink manages to do more than a 170$ piece of Apple equipment.

Having used fixed-length tabs for god-knows-how-long, it's a hard adjustment to make. Not only that, it's just hard to manage tabs when they are half a screen length wide and varies by the number of tabs.
And I don't like the omnibar because both Chrome and IE9 have confused search queries for URLs and vice versa too often. It has also happened with Safari a couple times in ML, but not as badly as IE9.

If I really wanted a power router I could go the DD-WRT route again ;) but for the sake of simplicity and prosumers I call the legacy AirPort Utility 5.x a "power tool."

JohnDoe98
Feb 28, 2012, 10:06 PM
1. "Natural scrolling" When you scroll down on a laptop, you expect the page to scroll down, not up.

Bald's question was what features were added that were bad for a desktop OS. Adding the option to change the scrolling is not bad. If you don't like the new way, use the old one. I prefer the new one. I expect, on my laptop, for my scrolling to behave as it does on my iOS devices. But again, since it is optional, this isn't bad for the desktop OS, it is only good.


2. Gigantic Safari tabs. Displaywide tabs might have been good for a 7" wide screen but for a 12" wide screen, it's just a horrible implementation of tabs.

Haven't seen them so can't comment.


3. Notification center's implementation. Like I said, Growl's implementation is much better, with an overlay instead of a screen push-away.

So because you prefer the way growl does things, it is bad for the desktop OS to have notification center? Are you even be serious at this point? If you prefer growl, use growl. Those who prefer notification center will use it. Again, adding options and diversity is good, so this is a non-issue.


4. Launchpad. Dumbest idea ever especially when we have the Applications folder and/or Quicksilver.

Launchpad is purely optional, again. So this isn't bad for the desktop OS environment. It seems you don't know how to comply with a simple request as this has already happened multiple times now. If you were ever a student, I hope you didn't ignore specific instructions as badly as you do here. And if you work for a boss, I hope you don't just ignore what he wants and do your own thing. Be sensitive to what is being asked of you.


5. Dumbing down of utilities like Airport Utility. Seriously? I have to download a legacy version of Airport Utility to change certain basic settings on my Time Capsule, but can't use iCloud with it?

Legacy version? 5.6 was released the same day as 6.0. 5.6 does some things 6.0 can't, and the only thing 6.0 does that 5.6 doesn't is it allows you to enable back to my mac. Additionally, 6.0 is likely incomplete right now, just as Quicktime X is incomplete. Expect future versions to re-incorporate the features of 5.6 Apple is well aware of its limitations, that's why it rolled out 5.6, and will continue to support that old paradigm, until the new one is ready to fully replace it. I know it is inconvenient to have to use two utilities, but since back to my mac was broken in 5.x series in iCloud, I'm glad Apple chose to release 6.0 incomplete than have us wait until all the new features are in it. Good temporary compromise on Apple's part.


6. Mac App Store. iOS doesn't have firmware updates provided through its App Store; why should Macs do so?

Rather than software update you now use the MAS. Everything happens in one place and with a much nicer graphical interface. This is good news so I don't know what you are complaining about.


Why should developers have to give 30% of their profit to Apple just so they can implement iCloud and Notification Center? It's not like the Mac App Store popularizes new apps like App Store does. Sooner or later a hacker is going to crack Notification Center so that it can be used by any app but the current rules are just too ridiculous. (Although the app discovery portion of MAS is somewhat neat)

Because they are using Apple bandwidth and storage space. What are they suppose to get it for free? Also, keeping iCloud APIs restricted to MAS is likely to keep the Cloud safer. Everything in the MAS is sandboxed where you don't have access to other applications within your own application (yes I'd like to see that change from sandboxing files to app, from apps to files types, but regardless). Nothing is stopping you or third-parties from writing your own Cloud type APIs and using those to distribute your Cloud based features. I'm rather surprised to hear someone complain that iCloud is bad for the desktop OS environment. Seriously. Some people just like to complain I guess. You might not like iCloud and how Apple rolled it out, but I think it is a very good thing to have. But here is the important point for you to remember, since you just don't seem to get it. iCloud is purely optional so it can't in principle make the desktop environment "bad" or "worse". Ignore it if you don't like it.

Also, if a hacker does get in and expect to use the APIs, expect them to get promptly sued. There is a reason why Siri, though cracked, isn't being widely used.


7. Loss of physical media. I'm gonna get flamed on this one. Software suites like iWork and iLife will soon be exclusively digital, as Mountain Lion is also (although you can burn the ESD DMG to a USB like Lion). What if your internet is throttled and/or have slow internet? Monthly caps? Not all of us have fast internet with unlimited usage, and for those of us who use satellite internet or DSL, if internet is down, physical media would be very useful.


That isn't Apple's problem. Complain to your ISP. Apple's digital delivery is cutting down costs and more environmentally friendly. This is a good move.


8. Notes and Stickies as separate applications. Redundant, don't you think?


Sure but you can get rid of, or ignore, whichever you want. How is that bad for the desktop OS environment? You really struggle with that concept huh?


9. Messages wasting so much space, and the inability to see the full friends list in fullscreen mode.

Don't use it then. It's optional.


10. Game Center. Steam and Origin really will drive this new app to oblivion.


Sigh. Is it even worth repeating at this point?


11. New skins. Does iCal / Calendar really have to look like a paper calendar with a faux leather binding? Isn't a simple unified interface a much better option, not to mention more eye pleasing?

Nope.


12. Gatekeeper. I'm sure there's been extensive debates about this so I won't even explain this one.

Nice. You realise this is so controversial, rather than actually say more to make it somewhat plausible, you resort to saying nothing. Why did you even include this in your list. Trying to stretch things are we?

Drew017
Feb 28, 2012, 10:09 PM
Me neither! I love the feel and look of Leopard/ Snow Leopard! Why didja change it Apple?

(Mountain) Lion is kinda cool, though... but unnecessary. :p

thundersteele
Feb 28, 2012, 10:25 PM
This argument is just silly. I'm not getting into the whole cycle where I name an innovative feature and you come up with some feature that's similar in another operating system. It's a useless argument.
Ok :)

Innovation comes not only in the implementation of new and unique features (which is more specifically referred to as invention), but also in the way those features are implemented and the methods used to implement them. If you seriously can't come up with a single innovation in ML, then you are just being willfully ignorant.

Yeah, you're probably right. I got a bit carried away. There's no reason to make everything new and different, just for the sake of it.

xTRIGGER092x
Feb 28, 2012, 10:33 PM
I'm welcome to the iOS style of doing things; I actually like Launchpad compared to Finder, Mission Control to Expose, and I really, really like the new aesthetics (the scroll bars are especially nice). As far as Mountain Lion goes, while Messages is probably the only new feature I'll ever use, the other stuff is welcome, too. It's all about consistency across all devices, and I'm fine with that.

That being said, Mountain Lion really should be the last OS upgrade that focuses on turning OS X into iOS. I like the fact that they're unifying the experience, but a desktop OS should have more capable features than a mobile OS. In the future, keeping both OS X and iOS consistent will be important, but new, innovative desktop-exclusive features should be at the forefront.

MattInOz
Feb 28, 2012, 11:36 PM
.... and Gatekeeper (iOS's refusal to run unauthorized code, except more liberal) all came from iOS.


Code Signing (the Gate part of Gatekeeper) has been in OS X longer than the iPhone has been released.
The new part of the feature is that code signed with an Apple ID doesn't need to bug you. It's like having a Doorman on your building, you only need to deal with the doorbell when the code isn't known. Regardless of your Gatekeeper setting you can still just "Open" the door yourself.

newagemac
Mar 1, 2012, 11:06 AM
In light of what Microsoft revealed with Windows 8 yesterday, I think this whole thread is hilarious. I sure hope Apple isn't wary of introducing the few iOS inspired things they did in Lion and Mountain Lion because the competition sure isn't holding anything back.

If you really want to see something jarring your current workflow, take a good look at Windows 8. What Apple is doing bringing iOS to OS X is very cautious in comparison. But i like the way Apple is doing it. They are introducing iOS inspired things only where it makes sense rather than just forcing the entire mobile experience upon the desktop/laptop user regardless of whether it actually makes sense or not.

hafr
Mar 1, 2012, 02:28 PM
In light of what Microsoft revealed with Windows 8 yesterday, I think this whole thread is hilarious. I sure hope Apple isn't wary of introducing the few iOS inspired things they did in Lion and Mountain Lion because the competition sure isn't holding anything back.

If you really want to see something jarring your current workflow, take a good look at Windows 8. What Apple is doing bringing iOS to OS X is very cautious in comparison. But i like the way Apple is doing it. They are introducing iOS inspired things only where it makes sense rather than just forcing the entire mobile experience upon the desktop/laptop user regardless of whether it actually makes sense or not.

Could you tell us more about what MS revealed yesterday, or provide a link, please? It sounds interesting.

BaldiMac
Mar 1, 2012, 02:36 PM
Could you tell us more about what MS revealed yesterday, or provide a link, please? It sounds interesting.

http://preview.windows.com/

leon-geyer
Mar 1, 2012, 08:32 PM
Well, I neither like the philosophy of bringing iOS to OS. Maybe there have been some contributions, but I would like to read in the advertisement of apple: a faster system, more stable, better graphics for hard work - than "now your lap will look like your palm, juchuu!"
The point is where is their attention, what do they think the users need, or use - and not if i can find, after searching a while, some good sides of porting iOS to OS. I use a mobile phone or a tablet for making things on the road, and the lap (before the desktop) for real work, and my real work ain't social networking.

Great, Apple puts as the new features twitter integration and messages. :mad:
What I see is that I bought a working machine and now it is getting a social networking machine. I thought I was a developer, a video artist, a designer, a musician, but no, I am finding out that for Apple I am in first line a chatter. Thank you, in the place I am living the social networking happens live.

BaldiMac
Mar 2, 2012, 07:28 AM
Well, I neither like the philosophy of bringing iOS to OS. Maybe there have been some contributions, but I would like to read in the advertisement of apple: a faster system, more stable, better graphics for hard work - than "now your lap will look like your palm, juchuu!"
The point is where is their attention, what do they think the users need, or use - and not if i can find, after searching a while, some good sides of porting iOS to OS. I use a mobile phone or a tablet for making things on the road, and the lap (before the desktop) for real work, and my real work ain't social networking.

Great, Apple puts as the new features twitter integration and messages. :mad:
What I see is that I bought a working machine and now it is getting a social networking machine. I thought I was a developer, a video artist, a designer, a musician, but no, I am finding out that for Apple I am in first line a chatter. Thank you, in the place I am living the social networking happens live.

Apple highlighted 10 new features out of hundreds that they thought would appeal to a large number of consumers as marketing bullet points. There will be plenty of improvements for professionals.

newagemac
Mar 2, 2012, 12:32 PM
Well, I neither like the philosophy of bringing iOS to OS. Maybe there have been some contributions, but I would like to read in the advertisement of apple: a faster system, more stable, better graphics for hard work - than "now your lap will look like your palm, juchuu!"
The point is where is their attention, what do they think the users need, or use - and not if i can find, after searching a while, some good sides of porting iOS to OS. I use a mobile phone or a tablet for making things on the road, and the lap (before the desktop) for real work, and my real work ain't social networking.

Great, Apple puts as the new features twitter integration and messages. :mad:
What I see is that I bought a working machine and now it is getting a social networking machine. I thought I was a developer, a video artist, a designer, a musician, but no, I am finding out that for Apple I am in first line a chatter. Thank you, in the place I am living the social networking happens live.

Just a question but when did social networking integration become a non business/work feature? Last time I checked many businesses, artists, designers, musicians, etc. are using social media like twitter as a prime tool in their business. In fact, social media has been called one the most effective business tools ever. Right up there with email, search, and other communication mediums but more effective in many ways because of the social and sharing aspect among other things.

I'm not sure where you got the indication that twitter was somehow not work related. It's no different from email. You can use email to send a picture of the kids to grandma or you can use it to connect with your email list of 100,000 customers. You can use twitter to send a picture of the kids to grandma or you can use it to connect with your 100,000 list of followers who pass your communication on to their own connections.

Both are just communication methods and both can be used effectively for business. Twitter is essential for many businesses, startups, and entrepreneurs. Just because you don't use it or don't use it for business doesn't mean it isn't a serious business tool.

KnightWRX
Mar 2, 2012, 01:24 PM
Well, I neither like the philosophy of bringing iOS to OS. Maybe there have been some contributions, but I would like to read in the advertisement of apple: a faster system, more stable, better graphics for hard work

The point is, the desktop/laptop metaphor and computers have gotten to a point where they are mature. Imprint that word in your mind, mature. It's not that Vendors are stagnating, it's that there just isn't that much to push aside from updated specs. The buyer market is also mature. We replace computers when they fail or when we need the speed/storage bump.

There just isn't anything "big" as far as processing and graphics no more. It's all incremental updates and little bumps. The next big frontier is mobile, and integrating those mobile platforms in our lives. Hence the features that Apple is pushing for OS X, it's all about integrating your computer with your mobile device and your mobile needs. Syncing, communication, account sharing, etc..

DeckMan
Mar 4, 2012, 05:23 AM
It's a problem because when I open and modify a document, purposefully or accidentally, I don't always want to save those changes.
The system now insists that I save any changes that are made to a document.

Not sure if you're still following this thread, but I just have to point out that the system does *not* insist that you save changes. It just insists that you explicitly undo the changes (by going to the last saved version, two clicks) if you find you don't want to keep them. Only if you close the window, or copy the file to a different location before undoing the changes, they are there without you wanting them.

(also better if your programming and don't want to have to weed through numerous versions as much coding is temporarily kept by most and only saved when the individual wants. Imagine going through tons of lines of code from hourly versions to get to the document you DO want, not fun)

That's probably why Xcode doesn't use versions, but git/subversion instead. Are there programming tools that support versions?
Apart from that, if you code something, you usually have to save anyway in order to compile your code, so I don't really understand your issue there. And if you do have to go back, just remember the rough time you had the version you want.

Tinyluph
Mar 4, 2012, 09:02 AM
The point is, the desktop/laptop metaphor and computers have gotten to a point where they are mature. Imprint that word in your mind, mature. It's not that Vendors are stagnating, it's that there just isn't that much to push aside from updated specs. The buyer market is also mature. We replace computers when they fail or when we need the speed/storage bump.

There just isn't anything "big" as far as processing and graphics no more. It's all incremental updates and little bumps. The next big frontier is mobile, and integrating those mobile platforms in our lives. Hence the features that Apple is pushing for OS X, it's all about integrating your computer with your mobile device and your mobile needs. Syncing, communication, account sharing, etc..

I'm no wizard on the subject but I have a hard time believing that there's nothing "big" Apple could be doing insofar as graphics are concerned.