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Tabby123
Feb 19, 2012, 06:24 AM
Anyone with multiple displays who uses Lion will be able to tell you they are completely useless when it comes to full screen apps.. Can anyone with developer access to ML confirm if that is still the case?

Cheers



Sound214
Feb 19, 2012, 06:39 AM
It's still useless.

Tabby123
Feb 19, 2012, 07:17 AM
It's still useless.

Damn! Ok thanks for looking.. :mad:

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 09:04 AM
It's still useless.

Useless what ? It's the same thing as it has been since Leopard and before. I find it's been working very well since they introduced the support gods know when.

stevemiller
Feb 19, 2012, 09:08 AM
Useless what ? It's the same thing as it has been since Leopard and before. I find it's been working very well since they introduced the support gods know when.

i think you might have missed the part about full screen apps in his question.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 09:33 AM
i think you might have missed the part about full screen apps in his question.

Yep, but that's a new lion feature. It didn't break "multi-monitor" support, it just didn't include it, I wanted to emphasize that as too many people claim "Multi-monitor is broken in Lion". It's not, it's the same as it always was. And frankly the way they did fullscreen apps, I can see why. Basically, when you go "fullscreen" in the sense of Lion, you create an exclusive desktop in Mission Control for that application.

Unless the app itself can use both monitors, there would be no way to let you have distinct applications on the same "exclusive" desktop.

The solution becomes to not use fullscreen in that way when hooked up to multiple monitors (and isn't the point of fullscreen for small, lower resolution screens ?).

farmermac
Feb 19, 2012, 09:50 AM
in other words, it's not broken, just useless. Gotcha.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 10:10 AM
in other words, it's not broken, just useless. Gotcha.

It's still as useful as it was in Snow Leopard and before. It's just not "more useful" in Lion. You want to spin it negatively, I just want to put in a reality check. It's the same it always has been.

mrblack927
Feb 19, 2012, 10:27 AM
I respectfully disagree. I think some things have been made worse for multiple monitors since Lion. For example, when switching between spaces; In 10.6 and below, you could assign an application to "stick" to a monitor by setting the space designation to "all spaces". That way, when you switch spaces, one monitor would change while the other monitor effectively stayed static. This is how I always do development work.

In 10.7, they changed this slightly. You can still set an application to be in "all spaces", but now when you change spaces, all windows disappear and reappear later. So every time I change spaces, both monitors slide out and fade in again, even though the one monitor isn't changing applications. It makes no sense. It doesn't help anything (even for single monitor uses) and it only serves to hinder dual monitor development.

Add this to countless other expose/spaces related changes that have made finding/managing windows less efficient (especially with dual monitors) and I'd say they certainly have made it worse in recent years.

dashiel
Feb 19, 2012, 10:56 AM
I respectfully disagree. I think some things have been made worse for multiple monitors since Lion. For example, when switching between spaces; In 10.6 and below, you could assign an application to "stick" to a monitor by setting the space designation to "all spaces". That way, when you switch spaces, one monitor would change while the other monitor effectively stayed static. This is how I always do development work.

In 10.7, they changed this slightly. You can still set an application to be in "all spaces", but now when you change spaces, all windows disappear and reappear later. So every time I change spaces, both monitors slide out and fade in again, even though the one monitor isn't changing applications. It makes no sense. It doesn't help anything (even for single monitor uses) and it only serves to hinder dual monitor development.

Add this to countless other expose/spaces related changes that have made finding/managing windows less efficient (especially with dual monitors) and I'd say they certainly have made it worse in recent years.

I donít have the same hate for Mission Control that many do, but full screen in Lion for dual monitors is not particularly useful. Given my druthers, each physical screen could host a full screen app or not as the case might be.

When doing Xcode dev it would be nice to have Xcode full screen on my main screen and the iOS simulator open on my secondary monitor. Iíd like to have my Win7/XP environment full screen on the secondary monitor with my text editor windowed on the primary monitor and able to independently swipe the between Win7/XP. Iíd like to have a movie playing full screen in the secondary window and still be able to use windowed apps on my main screen.

I really donít like in Mail fullscren when I compose a new message the rest of the App is inaccessible. There are many times when I need to reference another email.

Of course there are some major UX issues here, and I think thatís why Full Screen apps are limited for the moment. Better to keep it simple while you work out the user experience. I had hoped ML would begin to show some progress in this arena, hopefully the preview isnít demonstrative of the final product. Though reverting to an annual release cycle means I might not have to wait too long.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 11:10 AM
I respectfully disagree. I think some things have been made worse for multiple monitors since Lion. For example, when switching between spaces; In 10.6 and below, you could assign an application to "stick" to a monitor by setting the space designation to "all spaces". That way, when you switch spaces, one monitor would change while the other monitor effectively stayed static. This is how I always do development work.

In 10.7, they changed this slightly. You can still set an application to be in "all spaces", but now when you change spaces, all windows disappear and reappear later. So every time I change spaces, both monitors slide out and fade in again, even though the one monitor isn't changing applications. It makes no sense. It doesn't help anything (even for single monitor uses) and it only serves to hinder dual monitor development.


Hum, so you're annoyed by a lack of animation for moving windows from space to space, even though in the end you're getting the same result ? It's just a visual thing, it's not actually broken, you just don't like how it looks (because frankly, All Desktops does the same thing, only it switches desktops, then brings over the applications you've set for "All Desktops").

Gotcha.

haravikk
Feb 19, 2012, 11:46 AM
Full screen apps and multiple monitors is a major issue and I can't believe that Apple still isn't addressing this, especially when they're pushing Airplay monitor support!

On this issue though, I'm interested to know if it's still possible to install Quicktime 7 on Mountain Lion? Quicktime X is the the least advanced media player in existence, and barely usable unless all your movies are in .mov format, and even then its support for dual audio files and subtitles is abysmal, which is why Quicktime 7 (pro) is still my main movie player of choice.

Simplicated
Feb 19, 2012, 11:49 AM
Hum, so you're annoyed by a lack of animation for moving windows from space to space, even though in the end you're getting the same result ? It's just a visual thing, it's not actually broken, you just don't like how it looks (because frankly, All Desktops does the same thing, only it switches desktops, then brings over the applications you've set for "All Desktops").

Gotcha.

Seriously, you've gone from unreasonable to pathetic. You keep trying to play with words that essentially convey the same meaning.

mrblack927
Feb 19, 2012, 11:52 AM
Hum, so you're annoyed by a lack of animation for moving windows from space to space, even though in the end you're getting the same result ? It's just a visual thing, it's not actually broken, you just don't like how it looks (because frankly, All Desktops does the same thing, only it switches desktops, then brings over the applications you've set for "All Desktops").

Gotcha.

I know, it's seems nitpicky... it's hard to explain really. When you're switching spaces a lot it's just annoying. But my point is apple changed this for no apparent reason. I can't see any positives, so even if the negatives are few, why change it?

Sound214
Feb 19, 2012, 12:14 PM
Hum, so you're annoyed by a lack of animation for moving windows from space to space, even though in the end you're getting the same result ? It's just a visual thing, it's not actually broken, you just don't like how it looks (because frankly, All Desktops does the same thing, only it switches desktops, then brings over the applications you've set for "All Desktops").

Gotcha.

I think you're mistaken, although you're on the right track. It's kind off a animation thing, but it's not the lack of animation he is frustrated about, it's the addition of animation when it's completely unnecessary. Lion is great in many aspects, and I certainly prefer it over anything "pre-Lion", but some things are not quite thought of, which we, obviously, are hoping Apple will improve in Mountain Lion.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 12:15 PM
And really, if Application developers don't make use of the 2nd monitor, how is it Apple's fault ? I just threw together a full screen apps that can use 2 monitors, as evidenced by these screen shot in about 5 minutes in XCode.

First monitor (main monitor) is the full screen window :

325255

Second monitor is showing my HUD Panel :

325256

So what's the big deal really ? :confused:

pdjudd
Feb 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
Full screen apps and multiple monitors is a major issue and I can't believe that Apple still isn't addressing this, especially when they're pushing Airplay monitor support!

Problem is that Airplay is mirroring - not multiple monitors. Itís not a problem since you still have one monitor.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
I think you're mistaken, although you're on the right track. It's kind off a animation thing, but it's not the lack of animation he is frustrated about, it's the addition of animation when it's completely unnecessary. Lion is great in many aspects, and I certainly prefer it over anything "pre-Lion", but some things are not quite thought of, which we, obviously, are hoping Apple will improve in Mountain Lion.

Dunno, kinda like my desktop switching to be animated. Would be weird if it just "popped", especially since I use different backgrounds for every desktop I have.

But again, that's just a "visual bug", an annoyance. In the end, he's still getting his "All Desktop" application window on all desktops and it moves around as he moves around the different desktops. It just "pops" which goes back to my first point, one part is animated (good!) and one part isn't (would be nice if it were).

Sound214
Feb 19, 2012, 12:22 PM
Dunno, kinda like my desktop switching to be animated. Would be weird if it just "popped", especially since I use different backgrounds for every desktop I have.

I think what he meant is that the animation is fine, but he would prefer if you could stick one (or several) desktops to one screen. If I'd like to have Twitter and a RSS-reader static on one screen, for example, it's kind off stupid to have to switch all of the screens when you just want to swap one.

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 12:23 PM
I know, it's seems nitpicky... it's hard to explain really. When you're switching spaces a lot it's just annoying. But my point is apple changed this for no apparent reason. I can't see any positives, so even if the negatives are few, why change it?

I can see why they changed it though. Think about it from a programming point of view. The old space was probably implemented as a big resizable view that was larger/higher than your current desktop. When "switching" space, Spaces would just slide around the view. Apps set to "All spaces" would just slide around at the same time on the view so it looked like it remain static, same with the menubar and dock.

Now in Mission Control, desktops are actually seperate Windows, where you slide from one to other. Hence, the applications set to "All desktops" needs to be detached and reattached to the new "Desktop" (the other window), hence why it's not animated with the switchover.

Really, there's nothing special about virtual desktops, their implementation is just using the basic same tools we have for everything (NSView, NSWindow) and some trickery. It's how we've always implemented them on other systems (like the varying WMs which just use Window objects in xlib for a "desktop").

----------

I think what he meant is that the animation is fine, but he would prefer if you could stick one (or several) desktops to one screen. If I'd like to have Twitter and a RSS-reader static on one screen, for example, it's kind off stupid to have to switch all of the screens when you just want to swap one.

No, that's a completely different from what we're talking about. You're talking about switching from one to another desktop in Mission Control, we're talking about animations and the "All Desktop" sticky option for applications and what happens when switching. Try it if you have 2 monitors, set an application to "All desktops" and slide around the desktops in Mission Control. The App slides out with the desktop and then pops back up.

stevemiller
Feb 19, 2012, 01:14 PM
Yep, but that's a new lion feature. It didn't break "multi-monitor" support, it just didn't include it, I wanted to emphasize that as too many people claim "Multi-monitor is broken in Lion". It's not, it's the same as it always was. And frankly the way they did fullscreen apps, I can see why. Basically, when you go "fullscreen" in the sense of Lion, you create an exclusive desktop in Mission Control for that application.

Unless the app itself can use both monitors, there would be no way to let you have distinct applications on the same "exclusive" desktop.

The solution becomes to not use fullscreen in that way when hooked up to multiple monitors (and isn't the point of fullscreen for small, lower resolution screens ?).

technically you introduced the word "broke" into this discussion. ;) i think we're speaking here simply between lion and ML, was anything done to improve multi monitor handling of the full screen apps feature.

you did demonstrate that an app can make use of both monitors in full screen mode, and you seem to have knowledge of how the windowing system works, so maybe you can shed some light on this situation. i think for me the desire is less to have 1 app take advantage of both monitors, and more that a fullscreen app shouldn't consume the second monitor in the first place.

i know this is more of a virtual desktops issue, but i really feel that each desktop shouldn't encompass all connected screens, but each screen should be its own self contained set of desktops. you can have a fullscreen video or mail program running in one, while you multitask and do other stuff in the other. since the paradigms these days seems to be "in terms of iPads" i would suggest that multi monitor computer users think of each monitor as its own iPad, each one essentially multitasking separately (but of course you can easily move apps between the two - this is where mission control would actually shine). to me this would be awesome.

theelysium
Feb 19, 2012, 01:21 PM
Anyone know what update is needed to get 10.8 to Airplay?

I'm guessing I need to get some developer update for AppleTV?

:confused:

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 02:01 PM
technically you introduced the word "broke" into this discussion. ;)

Technically, I jumped the gun yes. But it's only because hanging on the Lion forum, I'm so used to people saying "Lion broke multi monitor support" when it fact it's plain untrue, the problem is that it didn't adapt it well.

i think we're speaking here simply between lion and ML, was anything done to improve multi monitor handling of the full screen apps feature.

[QUOTE=stevemiller;14350490]you did demonstrate that an app can make use of both monitors in full screen mode, and you seem to have knowledge of how the windowing system works, so maybe you can shed some light on this situation. i think for me the desire is less to have 1 app take advantage of both monitors, and more that a fullscreen app shouldn't consume the second monitor in the first place.

i know this is more of a virtual desktops issue, but i really feel that each desktop shouldn't encompass all connected screens, but each screen should be its own self contained set of desktops. you can have a fullscreen video or mail program running in one, while you multitask and do other stuff in the other. since the paradigms these days seems to be "in terms of iPads" i would suggest that multi monitor computer users think of each monitor as its own iPad, each one essentially multitasking separately (but of course you can easily move apps between the two - this is where mission control would actually shine). to me this would be awesome.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with Apple's choice of "an exclusive" desktop for each full screen application. You can't have full screen in Lion without Mission Control and the desktops it creates. Since Desktops are not on a per-monitor basis, that's just how it ends up.

There's also a lot of limitations to using the 2nd monitor and throwing Windows on it that I noticed playing around with XCode. I only managed it using a NSPanel in HUD Panel mode with Full Screen mode set to "Unsupported". NSWindow and tagging them as "Auxiliary Window" just made them stay out of the exclusive desktop, setting them to unsupported never permitted it to be "in front" even using the Window menu to pop up the Window.

DeckMan
Feb 19, 2012, 02:48 PM
Apparently multiple monitor support has improved (or rather, will improve) in that you can set a window to fullscreen on the external monitor in ML, something you can't do in Lion.

Also, you can solve all the issues with that by just not using full screen - *except* when you're watching a movie in QuickTime. That's my single gripe with it, that I can't have windows on one monitor while watching a fullscreen movie on the other. You can work around it though, by either using QuickTime's Fill Screen feature (cmd+3) or by using a different media player, e.g. QuickTime 7.

Quicktime X is the least advanced media player in existence, and barely usable unless all your movies are in .mov format, ...

I don't get that. QuickTime X plays all movie files I ever want to play with it, mp4, wmv, and so on. Though I've read somewhere that it used QuickTime 7 behind the scenes for anything other than the officially supported file formats, is that what you're referring to?

stevemiller
Feb 19, 2012, 06:18 PM
Technically, I jumped the gun yes. But it's only because hanging on the Lion forum, I'm so used to people saying "Lion broke multi monitor support" when it fact it's plain untrue, the problem is that it didn't adapt it well.

[QUOTE=stevemiller;14350490]i think we're speaking here simply between lion and ML, was anything done to improve multi monitor handling of the full screen apps feature.



I'm pretty sure it has to do with Apple's choice of "an exclusive" desktop for each full screen application. You can't have full screen in Lion without Mission Control and the desktops it creates. Since Desktops are not on a per-monitor basis, that's just how it ends up.

There's also a lot of limitations to using the 2nd monitor and throwing Windows on it that I noticed playing around with XCode. I only managed it using a NSPanel in HUD Panel mode with Full Screen mode set to "Unsupported". NSWindow and tagging them as "Auxiliary Window" just made them stay out of the exclusive desktop, setting them to unsupported never permitted it to be "in front" even using the Window menu to pop up the Window.

interesting findings. i haven't tested either, but i thought i might have read somewhere that either aperture or final cut X used the second monitor for a full screen preview of whatever you're working on in full screen mode. so there are certainly times when it could be helpful, but i'd still love to see an overhaul someday of desktops on a per monitor basis. there's probably downsides i'm not thinking of, but i'd be curious to try a mockup to see how it feels. do any other OS's treat secondary monitor desktops totally independently from primary monitor desktops?

KnightWRX
Feb 19, 2012, 06:44 PM
interesting findings. i haven't tested either, but i thought i might have read somewhere that either aperture or final cut X used the second monitor for a full screen preview of whatever you're working on in full screen mode. so there are certainly times when it could be helpful, but i'd still love to see an overhaul someday of desktops on a per monitor basis. there's probably downsides i'm not thinking of, but i'd be curious to try a mockup to see how it feels. do any other OS's treat secondary monitor desktops totally independently from primary monitor desktops?

Don't know about that, Windows doesn't really have a "virtual desktop" implementation (since they scrapped the one they had for Windows XP, which never shipped with the OS anyhow) and Linux' Xinerama stuff has always seemed pretty broken to me anyhow. So about the only other thing I've used was KDE 3.x + nVidia's multi-monitor support in their proprietary driver on SuSE (around back in 2003) and since there wasn't anything akin to Lion style "full screen apps" in KDE, well, I couldn't say what it does. ;)

pmz
Feb 19, 2012, 08:28 PM
I greatly dislike Lion's handling of Full Screen + Multiple Monitors....but I honestly can't say what a better implementation would be....

Assuming Apple figures this out, what would they do different? In Full Screen mode, both Displays would be a full screen app? swiping would bring whats on the left screen to the right, and whats next on to the left? until you reach the desktop...in which case bringing that all the way right puts dashboard on the left?

That wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't be great either.

Blipp
Feb 20, 2012, 10:35 AM
I greatly dislike Lion's handling of Full Screen + Multiple Monitors....but I honestly can't say what a better implementation would be....

Assuming Apple figures this out, what would they do different? In Full Screen mode, both Displays would be a full screen app? swiping would bring whats on the left screen to the right, and whats next on to the left? until you reach the desktop...in which case bringing that all the way right puts dashboard on the left?

That wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't be great either.

I think the best solution is one that's filled with options. Give the user the option to choose how they would like their full-screen apps to behave. If you want to leave the second display usable as your desktop, make it a second fullscreen app, choose how you would like to swipe between the apps, and so on. Options are king, the setup they have now is just all together too limiting.

pmz
Feb 20, 2012, 08:11 PM
I think the best solution is one that's filled with options. Give the user the option to choose how they would like their full-screen apps to behave. If you want to leave the second display usable as your desktop, make it a second fullscreen app, choose how you would like to swipe between the apps, and so on. Options are king, the setup they have now is just all together too limiting.

Options are not king. Apple has never pushed successful stuff loaded with options.

Apple does better with coming up with THE solution, and making it the only option. This tells people, "This is how it works, this is how it looks, and its great."

Windows does a great job of saying to customers, "Here's our terrible defaults, but you can change whatever you want."

Most people won't change anything, nor have any desire too. This is part of what Apple means by "it just works". They have the best solution, and its the default.

Newfiebill
Feb 21, 2012, 09:26 AM
Anyone know what update is needed to get 10.8 to Airplay?

I'm guessing I need to get some developer update for AppleTV?

:confused:

Yes you need to update the ATV to 5.1 Beta....

Blipp
Feb 21, 2012, 09:50 AM
Options are not king. Apple has never pushed successful stuff loaded with options.

Apple does better with coming up with THE solution, and making it the only option. This tells people, "This is how it works, this is how it looks, and its great."

Windows does a great job of saying to customers, "Here's our terrible defaults, but you can change whatever you want."

Most people won't change anything, nor have any desire too. This is part of what Apple means by "it just works". They have the best solution, and its the default.
I don't really disagree with anything you've said I guess. Apple does leave some limited scope for options such as with Gesture controls but they are certainly limited in your choices. I just think there are a lot of very useful and powerful things that could be done with multi-display support and fullscreen apps that are totally being squandered. They sold fullscreen apps as a selling point of Lion but it feels unfinished. Disabling the second display is not an "it just works" solution.

newagemac
Feb 22, 2012, 08:08 AM
Options are not king. Apple has never pushed successful stuff loaded with options.

Apple does better with coming up with THE solution, and making it the only option. This tells people, "This is how it works, this is how it looks, and its great."

Windows does a great job of saying to customers, "Here's our terrible defaults, but you can change whatever you want."

Most people won't change anything, nor have any desire too. This is part of what Apple means by "it just works". They have the best solution, and its the default.

This is an extremely important distinction and can't be stated enough. The real benefit is that once a UI solution is clearly defined, Apple and developers can target that particular solution within their applications. And this even extends to hardware choices for users.

It just may be that the new paradigm means having one huge monitor is better than having 2 smaller monitors. I sort of came to that conclusion recently that one large monitor is better for my workflow anyway. Before, I was big believer in dual monitors. But that was before Adobe introduced the "Application Frame" UI concept on the Mac throughout CS4. Since you could now have tabs side by side within the app and with panels all self contained, it made more sense to use a single large monitor.

I ended up spending less time arranging and organizing stuff. And everything I was working on was always directly in my line of sight. No more constant looking back and forth from one monitor to the other. It also helped tremendously that I switched from using Photoshop and Illustrator for design to using Adobe's Fireworks that integrate both bitmap and vector into one application. Besides the fact that Fireworks is more suited for web design, this also reduced the need to switch back and forth to multiple applications on different monitors.

Maybe it's time more developers integrate commonly used tools directly into their apps. For instance, writing apps should integrate a webkit browser directly into the app side by side with the writing interface so that your research and writing are within one app.

I can see things moving this way. We're not there yet though.

TheGdog
Feb 22, 2012, 08:36 AM
I greatly dislike Lion's handling of Full Screen + Multiple Monitors....but I honestly can't say what a better implementation would be....

Assuming Apple figures this out, what would they do different? In Full Screen mode, both Displays would be a full screen app? swiping would bring whats on the left screen to the right, and whats next on to the left? until you reach the desktop...in which case bringing that all the way right puts dashboard on the left?

That wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't be great either.

The problem with that is the orientation of the monitors. You can position monitors on top of each other, not just side by side. You would have to do away with that option. IMO, apple is moving away from the multiple monitor approach. I personally don't mind since I use a laptop. I would really like the ability to use a full screen application on an external monitor however.

Bottom line, if you have an dual monitor setup the screens are probably big enough that you don't need to make things full screen. Dual monitor support is not broken in lion/ML, it works the same as always. Just don't use fullscreen.

pmz
Feb 22, 2012, 08:39 AM
I don't really disagree with anything you've said I guess. Apple does leave some limited scope for options such as with Gesture controls but they are certainly limited in your choices. I just think there are a lot of very useful and powerful things that could be done with multi-display support and fullscreen apps that are totally being squandered. They sold fullscreen apps as a selling point of Lion but it feels unfinished. Disabling the second display is not an "it just works" solution.

It's a choice they made for one reason or another. I'm positive that at least a few people on the software development team took a look at dual screens/full screen apps, saw the implementation, and said, "that looks f&$@$&g stupid"

While others said, "yes, but we don't care so much dual screen support to build a whole new mode/framework for full screen apps....at least not today."

Apple figures most people with external monitors are hooking up small 13" notebooks to large 20-30" monitors, and probably closing the lid. You can't switch back and forth between those size displays without greatly hurting your eyes.

They also prolly figure if you have a 27" iMac and a 27" Tb display...you probably don't need the extra inch gained from going full screen...even though that's hardly the point.

unixperience
Feb 25, 2012, 01:33 PM
does anyone know how clamshell works? is it the same as lion? SO

-if you are in clamshell and open the notebook, the notebook display immediately turns on? (in 10.6 you had to do detect display first, which is nice because then you can still use the mouse and keyboard of the notebook, even with the internal screen off)

-if you close the screen while a second monitor is plugged in, it automatically enters clamshell mode?

GemŁtlichkeit
Feb 25, 2012, 02:25 PM
Seems like such an easy thing to incorporate.

Full screen apps prioritize to 2nd monitor and so on.

haravikk
Feb 27, 2012, 07:26 AM
Actually, on this topic I'm curious to know what kind of options are available with Notification Centre. Specifically, can I choose to place it on a different monitor?

If so, and it's placed on a different screen, does it still appear when using a fullscreen app? i.e - does it appear over the paper-textured "blank" surface?

TheGdog
Feb 27, 2012, 08:01 AM
Actually, on this topic I'm curious to know what kind of options are available with Notification Centre. Specifically, can I choose to place it on a different monitor?

If so, and it's placed on a different screen, does it still appear when using a fullscreen app? i.e - does it appear over the paper-textured "blank" surface?

My guess is that it will only show up on the primary screen, because the button for it is on the menu bar.

Blipp
Feb 27, 2012, 09:21 AM
My guess is that it will only show up on the primary screen, because the button for it is on the menu bar.

This is correct. It appears to be locked to the menubar and will appear on whichever display you have set as the primary regardless of whether you are fullscreening an app or not.

DeckMan
Mar 4, 2012, 05:04 AM
does anyone know how clamshell works? is it the same as lion?

If you're referring to the possibility (before Lion) to run the MacBook in clamshell mode, apparently that's still possible if you find the open/closed sensor and put a fridge magnet on it. ;)

I'm sure there's a precise description somewhere on Google, or maybe even in this forum.

yojitani
Mar 5, 2012, 06:21 PM
I really hope they change this behavior in Lion before Mountain Lion comes out. Full screen is beneficial for all sorts of reasons. The functionality is broken with this single monitor implementation if you consider the function of fullscreen mode to be to increase document visibility and decrease visual clutter. For example, showing a pdf on a projector in fullscreen mode greatly increases the visible area of the pdf - excellent for your audience, but terrible for you if you have notes on the computer that the audience doesn't need to see. I use fullscreen mode a lot for wordprocessing, but often need another source open (a pdf, an image, an Arsenal game :D) on a separate screen - well, I need it open if I want fullscreen to work in the way it should (or the way I understand it should. Thankfully, MS Word has not yet implemented Lion fullscreen. I complained about the lack of an update until I realized this benefit!

Crzyrio
Mar 6, 2012, 08:36 PM
I really hope they change this behavior in Lion before Mountain Lion comes out. Full screen is beneficial for all sorts of reasons. The functionality is broken with this single monitor implementation if you consider the function of fullscreen mode to be to increase document visibility and decrease visual clutter. For example, showing a pdf on a projector in fullscreen mode greatly increases the visible area of the pdf - excellent for your audience, but terrible for you if you have notes on the computer that the audience doesn't need to see. I use fullscreen mode a lot for wordprocessing, but often need another source open (a pdf, an image, an Arsenal game :D) on a separate screen - well, I need it open if I want fullscreen to work in the way it should (or the way I understand it should. Thankfully, MS Word has not yet implemented Lion fullscreen. I complained about the lack of an update until I realized this benefit!

This is actually unto developers to implement. And it was a huge let down that Apple did the bare minimum on their part with their Applications.

I believe a developer is able to make use of the 2nd screen when the Application is in full screen. Example :A word processor can be created such that while in full screen all the control panels would show up on the 2nd screen.


EDIT :


And really, if Application developers don't make use of the 2nd monitor, how is it Apple's fault ? I just threw together a full screen apps that can use 2 monitors, as evidenced by these screen shot in about 5 minutes in XCode.

First monitor (main monitor) is the full screen window :

325255

Second monitor is showing my HUD Panel :

325256

So what's the big deal really ? :confused:

yojitani
Mar 6, 2012, 10:10 PM
This is actually unto developers to implement. And it was a huge let down that Apple did the bare minimum on their part with their Applications.

I believe a developer is able to make use of the 2nd screen when the Application is in full screen. Example :A word processor can be created such that while in full screen all the control panels would show up on the 2nd screen.


EDIT :

But even in the version you are showing, it's not possible to run a second application in that space. It should be possible to designate a separate "desktop" to a separate screen. Why would developers want to spend time writing for a second screen? Sorry, but this just demonstrates to me that Apple got this wrong. It actually worked - i.e. it was not broken - in Spaces.

Blipp
Mar 7, 2012, 09:29 AM
But even in the version you are showing, it's not possible to run a second application in that space. It should be possible to designate a separate "desktop" to a separate screen. Why would developers want to spend time writing for a second screen? Sorry, but this just demonstrates to me that Apple got this wrong. It actually worked - i.e. it was not broken - in Spaces.

Agreed. I don't understand why the assumed behavior would be that every app wants/needs to use that second display as its own. Sure some apps like FCPX should take over that second monitor when you full screen them but I don't see any reason why I couldn't have Mail full screened on one monitor and an open desktop on the other or even a second full screened app. It just makes so much more sense then designating that second display to just the linen wallpaper.

TheGdog
Mar 7, 2012, 09:43 AM
Agreed. I don't understand why the assumed behavior would be that every app wants/needs to use that second display as its own. Sure some apps like FCPX should take over that second monitor when you full screen them but I don't see any reason why I couldn't have Mail full screened on one monitor and an open desktop on the other or even a second full screened app. It just makes so much more sense then designating that second display to just the linen wallpaper.

But how would they implement this, especially in mission control?

Blipp
Mar 7, 2012, 10:21 AM
But how would they implement this, especially in mission control?
I'm not seeing what would be so difficult about it really. Mission Control clearly needs some reworking as well so I'm sure proper support for multiple displays could be built back into it.

I'd be very curious to see what percentage of users work with more than one display. I'd be willing to bet it's a fairly high percentage of MBP owners.

CyBeRino
Mar 18, 2012, 06:15 PM
It's still as useful as it was in Snow Leopard and before. It's just not "more useful" in Lion. You want to spin it negatively, I just want to put in a reality check. It's the same it always has been.

It's useful until you want to use full-screen on one screen and something else on another.

Which is a very common scenario for media players. And Quicktime Player X is just broken in this regard: you can't put it full-screen on a secondary monitor at all anymore, let alone full-screen while being able to use the second screen for something else.

Also, full-screen being a separate space now means you can't have something small overlaid while still able to watch your media. For instance, cmd-tabbing to your terminal for a short moment to see if something is done compiling or whatever. That now involves moving spaces which means the movie goes out of sight.

Long story short: this behaviour is crap and I should be able to disable it.

Crzyrio
Mar 19, 2012, 02:58 PM
But even in the version you are showing, it's not possible to run a second application in that space. It should be possible to designate a separate "desktop" to a separate screen. Why would developers want to spend time writing for a second screen? Sorry, but this just demonstrates to me that Apple got this wrong. It actually worked - i.e. it was not broken - in Spaces.

The point of full screen apps is to put everything else behind it and focus on the one app.

If you want to use multiple applications at the same time, just don't full screen it. It isn't that hard. No idea why your complaining about something you don't have to use.

I feel like the introduction of full screen apps is just a stepping stone, and it will be very helpful with applications such as photoshop, pages, word etc, applications that have large number of different editing toolbars.

cosmicjoke
Mar 19, 2012, 03:56 PM
I greatly dislike Lion's handling of Full Screen + Multiple Monitors....but I honestly can't say what a better implementation would be....

Assuming Apple figures this out, what would they do different? In Full Screen mode, both Displays would be a full screen app? swiping would bring whats on the left screen to the right, and whats next on to the left? until you reach the desktop...in which case bringing that all the way right puts dashboard on the left?

That wouldn't be terrible, but it wouldn't be great either.

here's a simple enough solution for me with dual monitors...with the primary monitor, the desktop would always be drawn w/ dock, menubar, etc.. and fullscreen apps would default to new spaces on the second monitor... i don't really need side by side fullscreen apps, but it would be nice to have one monitor with a fullscreen app and one w/ desktop....

yojitani
Mar 19, 2012, 05:37 PM
If you want to use multiple applications at the same time, just don't full screen it. It isn't that hard. No idea why your complaining about something you don't have to use.

I find this statement to be rather baffling. Functionality isn't about whether one has to use a feature, it is about making a feature both useable and attractive to use. Full screen is incredibly useful! For workflow, being able to have, say, a document open in full screen in one display and an image that I am writing about in another is not only elegant, it makes my task easier. Of course, I could have the document open on one side of the display and the image on the other, but that defeats the utility of full screen. The way Apple has configured the full screen feature in Lion is incredibly, and uncharacteristically, lacking in functionality.

Full screen can help to improve focus and, hence, productivity, but for many tasks it is necessary to have an additional window or more available. Working on one screen, one can move back and forth from one screen to another, but it is rather inconvenient. It's akin to working on a physical desktop, but having to move your notepad off of your desk so you can refer to a book and then moving the book off of the desk so you can go back to the notepad.

And as I've mentioned, full screen is useful for so many other situations too, but is severely limited by the single screen usability.

KnightWRX
Mar 19, 2012, 07:07 PM
It's useful until you want to use full-screen on one screen and something else on another.

Whereas before, you had no full screen support in Snow Leopard. Just don't go fullscreen if you want to use the 2nd monitor, like you would've in Snow Leopard.

You lost nothing.

cosmicjoke
Mar 19, 2012, 08:07 PM
Whereas before, you had no full screen support in Snow Leopard. Just don't go fullscreen if you want to use the 2nd monitor, like you would've in Snow Leopard.

You lost nothing.

Actually some apps did have fullscreen support in SL, so it really depends on if the app keeps legacy fullscreen support or not, in VLC in preferences you can switch to the old style at least and watch a movie in fullscreen while continuing to work on your other screen.

CyBeRino
Mar 19, 2012, 09:28 PM
Whereas before, you had no full screen support in Snow Leopard. Just don't go fullscreen if you want to use the 2nd monitor, like you would've in Snow Leopard.

You lost nothing.

Frankly, I do not care about full-screen support for such apps as Mail, Safari, Messages and whathaveyou. So indeed, for these apps I've lost nothing. I haven't gained anything either, because I still don't use these apps in full-screen.


The difference is in applications where it is natural to use full-screen. The most prominent example being Quicktime Player X. In Snow Leopard, one could play a movie full-screen on any of one's monitors by moving the window to that monitor and entering full-screen. The other monitors would not change when one did this.

In Lion+, that behaviour is completely f​ucked. It's treating QTX as a productivity app, whereas it really is the exact opposite of that: entertainment. Potentially on the side.

It also f​ucks up professional settings btw, where a projectionist might want to display a movie on the secondary display (projector) while cueing up the next one up on the primary one, or some such similar situation.

Here, I've definitely lost something. If you can't see that, I don't know what else I can tell you.

ScottishCaptain
Mar 20, 2012, 05:13 AM
Frankly, I do not care about full-screen support for such apps as Mail, Safari, Messages and whathaveyou. So indeed, for these apps I've lost nothing. I haven't gained anything either, because I still don't use these apps in full-screen.

The difference is in applications where it is natural to use full-screen. The most prominent example being Quicktime Player X. In Snow Leopard, one could play a movie full-screen on any of one's monitors by moving the window to that monitor and entering full-screen. The other monitors would not change when one did this.

In Lion+, that behaviour is completely f​ucked. It's treating QTX as a productivity app, whereas it really is the exact opposite of that: entertainment. Potentially on the side.

It also f​ucks up professional settings btw, where a projectionist might want to display a movie on the secondary display (projector) while cueing up the next one up on the primary one, or some such similar situation.

Here, I've definitely lost something. If you can't see that, I don't know what else I can tell you.

Don't bother. People like him can't be reasoned with. Apple brainwashing at it's finest.

This is something most of these 10.7 weenies can't comprehend. They'll pop up and tell you you're wrong, you're not losing any functionality and that 10.7 is GOOD FOR YOU. Then you ask them about Mission Control and the answer is "It's better then Spaces and Expose!" with absolutely nothing to back that up. You ask about full-screening and multiple monitors, and the answer is "Well just don't use that!".

News flash, Apple published an API that is SUPPOSED to be used for full-screening on Lion. So developers are using that now and dropping their old 10.6 methods. This FORCES people to use Lion's full screen methods, and you have NO CHOICE. "You don't have to use it" my ass.

If you want to see how many people are complaining about this crap, just go look on the Parallels or VMWare forums. Both companies support full screening in Lion the Lion way, and it makes your multiple monitors useless if you want a VM full-screen on one monitor while you work on the other (something possible in 10.6). And in both cases, users are posting in troves to get the 10.6 behaviour back.

It still amazes me Apple is pushing this stuff when they themselves advertise chain-able Thunderbolt displays. You don't see any of their marketing material showing one monitor totally blanked out with the linen, do you?

-SC

KnightWRX
Mar 20, 2012, 05:51 AM
Actually some apps did have fullscreen support in SL, so it really depends on if the app keeps legacy fullscreen support or not, in VLC in preferences you can switch to the old style at least and watch a movie in fullscreen while continuing to work on your other screen.

The old style was a hack really and as you've pointed out, is still available to developers. If developers are moving away from it, it's because they see the advantages of the new system over the old one.

Work while you watch a movie ? Listening to music, ok, watching a movie ? And work ? Can you even do that with any chance of success at either ? :confused:

----------

It also f​ucks up professional settings btw, where a projectionist might want to display a movie on the secondary display (projector) while cueing up the next one up on the primary one, or some such similar situation.

Hum, projectionists use Quicktime Player now ? It's a "pro" tool ? Projectionists can use whatever still works for their workflow. Someone pointed out earlier that VLC retains both modes of full screen. There is no limitation to Lion that prevents it.

Here, I've definitely lost something. If you can't see that, I don't know what else I can tell you.

You haven't lost anything, since again, developers are free or not to move to the new system. Provide feedback to the developer of your app, explaining calmly and professionally, using full sentences why you think they need to retain the old way of doing full screen on top of Lion's way.

----------

Don't bother. People like him can't be reasoned with. Apple brainwashing at it's finest.

Why is it that I have to either be Apple brainwashed or a Apple hater ? I can't be both, yet you call me Apple brainwashed and everytime a story about trials or App store guidelines or heck, just bad changes in OS X/iOS come up, people label me a hater.

So which is it ? Am I a hater or a blind fanatic ? I'm really getting confused with you people...

Oh wait, it's because none of you guys can recognize good ol' fashion Critical Thinking and Objectivity. :rolleyes:

I'm neither an Apple fanatic or a hater. I use their stuff, like some of it, don't like other parts. That's called a balanced outlook. Don't have to be 100% on either side, there are shades of grey to the world. Time some of you started to realise this instead of always pigeonholing people into your own mindsets.

TwinMonkeys
Mar 20, 2012, 12:23 PM
A lot of people have done the strategy of buying a couple midsize monitors and putting them next to each other to make one big monitor. It seems as if Apple would rather you get one big monitor (27 inches) and just stick with that. For me, I think one monitor is a bit easier to manage, but other people seem to love their big battlestations with multiple monitors, heh.

cosmicjoke
Mar 20, 2012, 02:25 PM
The old style was a hack really and as you've pointed out, is still available to developers. If developers are moving away from it, it's because they see the advantages of the new system over the old one.

Work while you watch a movie ? Listening to music, ok, watching a movie ? And work ? Can you even do that with any chance of success at either ? :confused:[COLOR="#808080"]

----------


Is that really hard to fathom? I can satisfyingly accomplish a variety of tasks while being sufficiently engaged in a video... You've never used your computer while watching TV? WTF is the difference?

CyBeRino
Mar 20, 2012, 02:27 PM
Work while you watch a movie ? Listening to music, ok, watching a movie ? And work ? Can you even do that with any chance of success at either ?

Depending on the work and the movie, yes. Another option is iChatting while watching a movie.


Hum, projectionists use Quicktime Player now ? It's a "pro" tool ? Projectionists can use whatever still works for their workflow. Someone pointed out earlier that VLC retains both modes of full screen. There is no limitation to Lion that prevents it.


It's a perfectly fine player, yes, and a default install of Mac OS X does not offer any other way of playing media.


Edit: I've just tried this in ML (my external display is not normally hooked up to my ML laptop) and it appears they've fixed one aspect of this problem. The animation is still buggy, but at least it sticks to the right display now so you can pick what screen to play on. Still blanks any other displays though.


You haven't lost anything, since again, developers are free or not to move to the new system. Provide feedback to the developer of your app, explaining calmly and professionally, using full sentences why you think they need to retain the old way of doing full screen on top of Lion's way.


Well, you're right in that app developers are free to decide to do some other method of full-screening. And luckily, most developers of third-party media players do. For instance, MPlayerX actually has two modes depending on if you have more than one screen or not: if not, it'll use Lion's full-screen or otherwise it'll use regular, useful fullscreen.

I have of course provided calm and professional feedback to Apple about why this is ridiculous. They have done nothing with it that I can see.

KnightWRX
Mar 20, 2012, 06:10 PM
Still blanks any other displays though.

That's where you're wrong. See page 1 of this thread. The other display is not "blanked", it's quite available to use for the Application. It's an exclusive Desktop for that Application. The application itself however can use the full real-estate, on all connected monitors if it wishes.

Again, talk to your developer about it.

And you pointed out yourself the alternatives, so I see we're making progress in you understanding there is no limitation in Lion for fullscreen. There's a new way of doing it for developers, it's completely optional. We've lost nothing. We've gained something that doesn't work how you expect it to on multiple monitors, it works how it works (exclusive desktop in Mission Control). ;)

----------

Is that really hard to fathom? I can satisfyingly accomplish a variety of tasks while being sufficiently engaged in a video... You've never used your computer while watching TV? WTF is the difference?

Yes I have. Of course, I have no idea what was playing on it at the time since there's no way to concentrate on the TV while using the computer. You end either missing tidbits of the show and being constantly distracted in your work, or you end up concentrating too much on one or the other and either completely missing what was on TV or just not using the computer at all.

I have never successfully watched TV/video and worked on the computer at the same time. Your definition of success might be different from mine.

mabaker
Mar 21, 2012, 05:59 AM
Did you submit feedback to Apple? You have to let them know about the mess.

CyBeRino
Mar 21, 2012, 01:20 PM
That's where you're wrong. See page 1 of this thread. The other display is not "blanked", it's quite available to use for the Application. It's an exclusive Desktop for that Application. The application itself however can use the full real-estate, on all connected monitors if it wishes.

No, it is blanked. Yes, it is available to the application and guess what the application does with it? It blanks it. Apps that don't do anything with it have a linen background. Quicktime Player however explicitly blanks it, so it is black.


And you pointed out yourself the alternatives, so I see we're making progress in you understanding there is no limitation in Lion for fullscreen.

I never said there was a limitation in Lion itself. Just in some apps that use the functionality and offer no alternative, and that in QTX it should not have been done this way. Case in point: the third-party apps all do this differently. Apple should too.

We've gained something that doesn't work how you expect it to on multiple monitors, it works how it works (exclusive desktop in Mission Control). ;)

At least I got you to admit it doesn't work as you'd expect :P

cosmicjoke
Mar 21, 2012, 02:26 PM
not sure what we're talking about at this point, but w/ vlc there are two settings... from preferences, in the interfacee tab uncheck use the native fullscreen mode on OS X Lion and in the Video tab uncheck Black screens in Fullscreen mode... save, quit vlc and relaunch...

HabSonic
Mar 24, 2012, 07:36 PM
does anyone know how clamshell works? is it the same as lion? SO

-if you are in clamshell and open the notebook, the notebook display immediately turns on? (in 10.6 you had to do detect display first, which is nice because then you can still use the mouse and keyboard of the notebook, even with the internal screen off)

-if you close the screen while a second monitor is plugged in, it automatically enters clamshell mode?

I have the same question.

I don't really care about full screen app on big external displays, but still, Apple implementation is dumb.

KnightWRX
Mar 24, 2012, 08:24 PM
No, it is blanked. Yes, it is available to the application and guess what the application does with it? It blanks it. Apps that don't do anything with it have a linen background.

Again, you're wrong. I wrote a quick demo app that has the linen background on monitor 2, and also shows a HUD window on monitor 2. The linen background is not a "blanked" monitor, it's a useable monitor by the app that has an exclusive lock on that particular desktop.

----------


At least I got you to admit it doesn't work as you'd expect :P

Don't put words into my mouth. I said it doesn't work as YOU, as in, CyBeRino, expects it to work.

It works how its made to work and how I, as in, KnightWRX, would expect such a virtual desktop implementation to work.

You didn't get me to "admit" anything, there was nothing to admit to begin with.

CyBeRino
Mar 25, 2012, 07:32 AM
Again, you're wrong. I wrote a quick demo app that has the linen background on monitor 2, and also shows a HUD window on monitor 2. The linen background is not a "blanked" monitor, it's a useable monitor by the app that has an exclusive lock on that particular desktop.

How are you still not getting this? I'm not saying anything that you should think is wrong.

Quicktime player explicitly blanks all secondary displays. If it didn't they would get a linen background. If it properly didn't use (Mountain) Lion's full-screen facilities, these displays wouldn't change. There is only one conclusion to be made here.