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MacRumors
Mar 23, 2012, 01:09 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/23/lines-of-resellers-returning-new-ipads-at-fifth-avenue-apple-store/)


A tipster sends us this tale of a trip to the Fifth Avenue Apple Store last night.
Went to the Fifth Ave store near midnight today, and saw that Apple was setting up a separate line just to handle the volume of iPad returns from Chinese resellers. The manager kept the separate line to ensure that regular customer's experience wasn't affected. Some people were returning up to 30.http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/03/ipadreturnline.jpg


A number of organizations have written about the reseller phenomenon (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/23/technology/23iphone.html?_r=1), including the New York Times:
They show up in the early-morning hours: Chinese men and women, waiting silently and somewhat nervously outside of Apple stores in New York. On some days the lines they form can be a block long.

These are not typical Apple fans. Instead they are participants in a complex and curious trade driven by China's demand for Apple's fashionable gadgets -- products that are made in China in the first place and exported, only to make the long trip back.The resellers try to buy as many iPads as they can to resell them at a high margin, bit it seems that Apple has had success in fulfilling demand this time -- even selling more than enough iPads to the resellers. Apple Stores have a 14-day return policy, and it applies to all iPad purchasers.

Article Link: Lines of Resellers Returning New iPads at Fifth Avenue Apple Store (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/23/lines-of-resellers-returning-new-ipads-at-fifth-avenue-apple-store/)



Caliber26
Mar 23, 2012, 01:12 PM
It's a real shame that a restocking fee doesn't apply in this case.

Eddyisgreat
Mar 23, 2012, 01:13 PM
Kinda like these hippies that bought extra iPads to fund a trip to Brazil:

http://dkdt0qzuhk07y.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Apple2-600x400.jpg

(From SeattleTimes (http://today.seattletimes.com/2012/03/ipad-customers-camp-overnight-at-apple-store/))

3bs
Mar 23, 2012, 01:14 PM
Why did they buy them in the first place if they planned on returning them? Were they not able to take them back to China or something?

RamboRab
Mar 23, 2012, 01:18 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

3bs
Mar 23, 2012, 01:20 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

Why do they have the policy in place then? Is there a fine print saying that they have the right to refuse to return the money back to the customer if there is nothing wrong with the product? I've never had a problem like this in Ireland (The Republic) but then again I've never done what these chinese resellers are doing.

wikus
Mar 23, 2012, 01:22 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

Is that a law?

I find that kind of ridiculous.

Sykotic
Mar 23, 2012, 01:22 PM
Why did they buy them in the first place if they planned on returning them? Were they not able to take them back to China or something?

I imagine it's because there's more than enough supply available. They aren't able to demand a mark-up on them that offsets all the expenses they incur.

FNi
Mar 23, 2012, 01:24 PM
...and that's what you get for doubting Tim Cook's mad skills at locking down a supply chain.

RamboRab
Mar 23, 2012, 01:32 PM
Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

Why do they have the policy in place then? Is there a fine print saying that they have the right to refuse to return the money back to the customer if there is nothing wrong with the product? I've never had a problem like this in Ireland (The Republic) but then again I've never done what these chinese resellers are doing.

I wasn't meaning Apple stores. I meant retail in general. They usually have the policy for good customer service.

slicecom
Mar 23, 2012, 01:38 PM
I hope they process the returns reeeeally slowly so they have to wait around for an extended period of time.

BJMRamage
Mar 23, 2012, 01:38 PM
They could have a 5 item return limit per day.

something to still accept them but make it a pain to do.
Track based on Driver's License or ID like Best Buy and pharmacies who can only sell X amount of allergy stuff.

3bs
Mar 23, 2012, 01:39 PM
Wirelessly posted



I wasn't meaning Apple stores. I meant retail in general. They usually have the policy for good customer service.

Yeah I didn't mean Apple stores specifically either since we don't have any here. I still don't get why they would refuse to give you your money back if you bring it back in time and in the same condition you bought it.

TimeArrow
Mar 23, 2012, 01:39 PM
Wirelessly posted

The China custom charge a higher import tax, as high as 130-140$. No surprise that they came to return. But surprised that those returners are young and pretty.

Kirsten Hollerd
Mar 23, 2012, 01:40 PM
I have a friend that works at an Apple Store and he said that they were dealing with unscrupulous resellers who returned shrink wrapped "New iPads" that actually had iPad 2's inside. Crazy.

McCarron
Mar 23, 2012, 01:41 PM
While the article and tipster said "new iPads" I am just guessing but these are likely brand new iPad 2s being returned (or exchanged for iPad 3?) that were purchased before the new model came out. That makes sense.

zen
Mar 23, 2012, 01:48 PM
I don't get it - is there a profit being made by the resellers here?

cshsia
Mar 23, 2012, 01:52 PM
While the article and tipster said "new iPads" I am just guessing but these are likely brand new iPad 2s being returned (or exchanged for iPad 3?) that were purchased before the new model came out. That makes sense.

I'm the tipster :) The returns were all new iPads. Most of them barely spoke English.

----------

If you look at eBay, after fees (ebay/paypal) and shipping, there's no profit to be made at all reselling iPads online.

Plus, Apple launched in HK on the same day, essentially shutting down demand for grey market export to HK.

These folks are just getting their working capital back. 30 ipads is a lot of cash committed.

----------

Wirelessly posted

The China custom charge a higher import tax, as high as 130-140$. No surprise that they came to return. But surprised that those returners are young and pretty.

Young yes..... pretty.... well....

smali
Mar 23, 2012, 01:55 PM
Haha these idiots ****ing deserve it!

Pared
Mar 23, 2012, 01:56 PM
This article just made my day.

waynelee1981
Mar 23, 2012, 01:57 PM
Why did they buy them in the first place if they planned on returning them? Were they not able to take them back to China or something?

they are not popular as ipad 2 in China, the new i pad 4g 64gb only selling for 6000 yuan which around $952, ipad 2 3g 64gb was selling 9000yuan years ago

perealb
Mar 23, 2012, 01:58 PM
Awesome. I wish there was a solution efficient like that for concert ticket scalpers.

MH01
Mar 23, 2012, 02:00 PM
Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

In the UK the Apple store has to refund your purchase within 14 days as thier policy stands . No the manager has no choice unless the goods are damaged.

For all online says all items can be returned within 14 days. That is all retailers.

MH01
Mar 23, 2012, 02:01 PM
Wirelessly posted

The poster is wrong. Per apple policy thy have to refund.

And all online says have a 14 day return policy for all retailers.

gglockner
Mar 23, 2012, 02:06 PM
Apple tries to offer a premium experience with their products. These exporters can't offer an Apple-style buying experience, so it's in Apple's best interest to reduce the opportunities for the resellers. Worse, since some may be trying to scam Apple by returning an empty box, it would be reasonable for Apple to delay refund until they have inspected the returned items.

xtacyboy
Mar 23, 2012, 02:08 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

They will still have to return. Though managers, according to you, can overrule it. He would still be an apple employee and that's apple's policy. No if's, ands or buts about it. If the manager refuses it, all we have to do is call apple and complain, the manager's ass would be on the platter.

fabian9
Mar 23, 2012, 02:21 PM
I'm surprised none of the usual overly dramatic news outlets are reporting this as "Huge lines forming outside apple stores: unhappy customers are returning their iPads!"...

BC2009
Mar 23, 2012, 02:38 PM
they are not popular as ipad 2 in China, the new i pad 4g 64gb only selling for 6000 yuan which around $952, ipad 2 3g 64gb was selling 9000yuan years ago

Your comment implies it is not selling as well and Apple's reported numbers indicate that is not the case.

Actually the big thing is that the supply is vastly higher for the launch of the new iPad, thus keeping the price gouging from occurring. Apple essentially cut the grey market off at the knees by being in many countries at launch and having plenty of stock on hand.

When I woke up on launch day there were tons on Craigslist already. After some initial suckers bought those everybody else figured out that the stores still had stock. You simply cannot get a decent markup when Apple was ready with the supply.


The scalpers actually took a bath on this because they had to buy the iPads and pay those folks who bought them and then pay those same folks to return them. This will make them think twice with the next Apple product launch.

jmgregory1
Mar 23, 2012, 02:39 PM
Wirelessly posted

That's what I expected to see. The day isn't over yet, chances are good we will see some bs story pop up claiming huge returns from unhappy customers - most of speak no English...

morespce54
Mar 23, 2012, 02:45 PM
I'm surprised none of the usual overly dramatic news outlets are reporting this as "Huge lines forming outside apple stores: unhappy customers are returning their iPads!"...

Well, probably because it just be unbelievable... ;)
(And maybe seeing most of them don't speak English, something would look fishy)

...
The scalpers actually took a bath on this because they had to buy the iPads and pay those folks who bought them and then pay those same folks to return them. This will make them think twice with the next Apple product launch.

I bet they made so much money with the iPhone4/4S and the iPad 2 launch that it worth trying... :)

Music_Producer
Mar 23, 2012, 02:53 PM
Apple tries to offer a premium experience with their products. These exporters can't offer an Apple-style buying experience, so it's in Apple's best interest to reduce the opportunities for the resellers.

I'm sorry.. but what exactly is an apple-style buying/premium experience? :confused: A free massage or champagne while buying an iPad? I don't even go to the Apple store anymore since it's chaotic in there, I'd rather just buy it online. So much for the buying experience..

richard.torble
Mar 23, 2012, 03:06 PM
Is that a law?

I find that kind of ridiculous.

That is the law in the UK. Unless the item is faulty or missold (i.e you were told it did something it doesn't) you have no right to a refund. It makes perfect sense.

bazaarsoft
Mar 23, 2012, 03:06 PM
I have to point out - the article as written doesn't actually describe what's going on. Without following the links and reading the other articles it's unclear why they are returning iPads that they bought 14 days ago.

:rolleyes:

Oh, and the NYT link requires a login. Kwalatee riting...

C. Alan
Mar 23, 2012, 03:13 PM
Well it looks like Apple finally figured out how to take the wind out of the sales of the gray market Ipads. Hopefully this will keep the resale prices of the Ipad resonable. Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming...

wikus
Mar 23, 2012, 03:15 PM
That is the law in the UK. Unless the item is faulty or missold (i.e you were told it did something it doesn't) you have no right to a refund. It makes perfect sense.


Makes sense, but I don't agree with it. Impulse purchases, gifts, clothes that dont fit, wrong items accidentally purchased, etc are all legit cases where a return & refund would be necessary.

I imagine in the UK mindless shopping isnt as rampant as it is in USA?

clarkie604
Mar 23, 2012, 03:16 PM
Why all the hate for the foreign entrepreneurs? They bought thinking that they could sell for a premium and now since they can't sell for a premium they are returning for the original cost. There is no dishonesty or bad dealing. Apple sells them to someone else. It's just transactions. What's wrong with that?

Also, in the US it's completely legal for a retail store to sell something and not provide a full (or any) refund if its returned -- i.e., restocking fee. Look at eBay -- sellers are free to sell "as is". The thing to remember, though (and I suspect this is the same in the UK), is that if a store says you can return a purchase for cash within 14 days (or whatever) then the store probably is required to allow the return.

Kaibelf
Mar 23, 2012, 03:19 PM
Why all the hate for the foreign entrepreneurs? They bought thinking that they could sell for a premium and now since they can't sell for a premium they are returning for the original cost. There is no dishonesty or bad dealing. Apple sells them to someone else. It's just transactions. What's wrong with that?

Also, in the US it's completely legal for a retail store to sell something and not provide a full (or any) refund if its returned -- i.e., restocking fee. Look at eBay -- sellers are free to sell "as is". The thing to remember, though (and I suspect this is the same in the UK), is that if a store says you can return a purchase for cash within 14 days (or whatever) then the store probably is required to allow the return.

Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

Sardonick007
Mar 23, 2012, 03:19 PM
These people are a scourge. No better than scalpers and should be treated the same.

nsayer
Mar 23, 2012, 03:20 PM
Is that a law?

I find that kind of ridiculous.

WTF?

This is the most basic contract law. Calling it English common law is unfair since it probably goes back to the stone age.

You go to the Apple store.
You agree to pay $599 for an iPad.
The guy in the store gives you the iPad.
You leave.

If there's nothing wrong with the iPad, and we can assume that there's nothing wrong with your $599 since dollars are fungible, then both sides have fulfilled their obligations under the contract. You can't suddenly decide you don't want the iPad anymore and force Apple to dissolve the contract anymore than Apple can retroactively raise the price.

That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

Sardonick007
Mar 23, 2012, 03:22 PM
I'm sorry.. but what exactly is an apple-style buying/premium experience? :confused: A free massage or champagne while buying an iPad? I don't even go to the Apple store anymore since it's chaotic in there, I'd rather just buy it online. So much for the buying experience..

While I could not, and would not live without my iPad, and likely my iPhone when I get one, I can't stand our Apple store. The so called "Geniuses" are dumber than CompUSA employees and the whole "experience" is only good if you're a sandal wearing hippy. :) I know, I represent a solid minority in that most people love the experience but it is my view, and my money, so I guess it's valid. I like the free massage idea though.

jackhdev
Mar 23, 2012, 03:28 PM
While I could not, and would not live without my iPad, and likely my iPhone when I get one, I can't stand our Apple store. The so called "Geniuses" are dumber than CompUSA employees and the whole "experience" is only good if you're a sandal wearing hippy. :) I know, I represent a solid minority in that most people love the experience but it is my view, and my money, so I guess it's valid. I like the free massage idea though.

Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

wikus
Mar 23, 2012, 03:38 PM
WTF?

This is the most basic contract law. Calling it English common law is unfair since it probably goes back to the stone age.

You go to the Apple store.
You agree to pay $599 for an iPad.
The guy in the store gives you the iPad.
You leave.

If there's nothing wrong with the iPad, and we can assume that there's nothing wrong with your $599 since dollars are fungible, then both sides have fulfilled their obligations under the contract. You can't suddenly decide you don't want the iPad anymore and force Apple to dissolve the contract anymore than Apple can retroactively raise the price.

That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

Easy there chap, no need to get your bollox tied up in a knot.

Laws arent the same in every country. There are typically 30 day refund/return/exchange policies all across USA and Canada. I being from the latter.

LobsterDK
Mar 23, 2012, 03:46 PM
Why all the hate for the foreign entrepreneurs? They bought thinking that they could sell for a premium and now since they can't sell for a premium they are returning for the original cost. There is no dishonesty or bad dealing. Apple sells them to someone else. It's just transactions. What's wrong with that?

Also, in the US it's completely legal for a retail store to sell something and not provide a full (or any) refund if its returned -- i.e., restocking fee. Look at eBay -- sellers are free to sell "as is". The thing to remember, though (and I suspect this is the same in the UK), is that if a store says you can return a purchase for cash within 14 days (or whatever) then the store probably is required to allow the return.

Scalpers have been an issue with previous supply constrained launches. It's not that they put a huge dent in overall availability, but they did clog the front of launch day lines while people buying for themselves were just there to have a good time and pick up an iPad. That leads to sellouts, dissappointing people who weren't there to cash in. It's a bit of Schadenfreude, nothing overlay hatefull. (except for this guy below)

----------

Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

Pigs? Seriously? Freaking pigs? Get a grip.

bushido
Mar 23, 2012, 03:53 PM
That is the law in the UK. Unless the item is faulty or missold (i.e you were told it did something it doesn't) you have no right to a refund. It makes perfect sense.

isnt there a EU law that says u can return anything within 14 days for no reason? or is the UK excluded from this when it comes to EU stuff as usual :p

Xscapes
Mar 23, 2012, 03:54 PM
I'm chinese too, but i felt ashamed for these people. Everytime i go to the 5th ave store i see lot of these people from china acquire ipad and resell them in china.

dasmb
Mar 23, 2012, 03:55 PM
That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

Well, it kind of does. If you sell something under the stipulation that the sale is being made with returns offered, that's an implicit part of the contract (and in some areas, an explicit one). It's a periodic service that's presented as part of the sale, same as a warranty or after-sales support.

Any Apple store can, of course, choose not to accept any merchandise. But there'd better be a good reason for it, because it's legally actionable. Apple would need to prove, in every case, that circumstances of the return were sufficiently unfair to warrant breach of contract, or face claims.

Certainly if you don't stop resellers from buying bulk devices -- and if they're returning goods that are unaltered and in saleable condition, like these likely are -- you shouldn't stop them from returning them. There's no profit in it and it's bad press. The resellers have already been burned once, anyway -- they'll likely learn their lesson

LobsterDK
Mar 23, 2012, 03:55 PM
Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

Naive, youthful narcissism at its finest. Yeah, I knew more than everyone else on the planet at your age as well. Most everyone does. Then the planet taught me some life lessons, as it does to all naive young narcissists. :rolleyes:

aristobrat
Mar 23, 2012, 03:58 PM
Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.
You're not old enough to sign legal documents and have them bind, like the employee NDA.

I can tell you as a very technical person that worked at Apple Retail part-time for several years, you're likely to spend 95% of your time giving basic OS X/iLife demonstrations to people. You're very unlikely to be asked a technical question on a shift. It can make for a very, very boring job if you're expecting to be able to share a lot of OS X knowledge.

dasmb
Mar 23, 2012, 03:58 PM
isnt there a EU law that says u can return anything within 14 days for no reason? or is the UK excluded from this when it comes to EU stuff as usual :p

The UK is excluded from EU laws because it's not part of the EU.

Fiji is excluded for the same reason.

fabian9
Mar 23, 2012, 04:06 PM
isnt there a EU law that says u can return anything within 14 days for no reason? or is the UK excluded from this when it comes to EU stuff as usual :p

In the UK if you buy something remotely (e.g. over the internet), you have a statutory right to return it within 14 days. If you buy something from a store, then it comes down to store policy, although I don't know any that don't offer returns. Some goods are sometimes excluded, such as earrings (hygiene reasons).

OT: Despite some people having a bit of an odd view on Europe in the UK, it's usually one of the first to implement EU legislation. E.g. smoking ban in public places, which other countries such as Germany (my home country) still haven't been able to implement effectively even years later.

The UK is excluded from EU laws because it's not part of the EU.

I hope you're joking. Just for the record, of course the UK is part of the EU (though not a member of the eurozone).

88 King
Mar 23, 2012, 04:06 PM
The UK is excluded from EU laws because it's not part of the EU.


WHAT! I hope you are not British, this is something they teach to primary school kids.

Link to EU (http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm) member website, UK has been a member for almost 30 years.

jackhdev
Mar 23, 2012, 04:07 PM
⁢⁢⁢

wikus
Mar 23, 2012, 04:10 PM
Naive, youthful narcissism at its finest. Yeah, I knew more than everyone else on the planet at your age as well. Most everyone does. Then the planet taught me some life lessons, as it does to all naive young narcissists. :rolleyes:

He probably does, the 'genius' title for apple employees is a joke. Ever dealt with any of them on an actual technical problem? Its not a whole lot of fun. I was treated like an idiot when my Macbook Pro was having display issues when connected to an external monitor. I even brought videos to show the problems i was having at home (because i wasnt going to carry my 24" monitor like a dingbat)... needless to say, the problem was never fixed because it was apple's awful graphics drivers that was the problem.

----------

Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad.

Would this be a good time to use the word 'pwned' ?

almonde
Mar 23, 2012, 04:11 PM
The UK is excluded from EU laws because it's not part of the EU.

Are you smoking crack, or did I just miss your sarcasm? :confused:

dasmb
Mar 23, 2012, 04:13 PM
Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

Can you even legally work most of the hours the store is open?

Here in NY, under the age of 18 you can't work during school hours and you can't work past 9. Can't open, can't close. That qualifies you to work weekends and holidays only.

Why would they hire you when there are plenty of people who fit their scheduling needs? They'd put you through the same training session, regardless, at the end of which you're certified to have enough knowledge to sell macs. I'm sure getting extra knowledge for free has value, but an employee who can't work much doesn't.

jackhdev
Mar 23, 2012, 04:16 PM
Can you even legally work most of the hours the store is open?

Here in NY, under the age of 18 you can't work during school hours and you can't work past 9. Can't open, can't close. That qualifies you to work weekends and holidays only.

Why would they hire you when there are plenty of people who fit their scheduling needs? They'd put you through the same training session, regardless, at the end of which you're certified to have enough knowledge to sell macs. I'm sure getting extra knowledge for free has value, but an employee who can't work much doesn't.

I think the rule is 14 or 16, and while I agree with you about scheduling and school, they don't even consider you until you're 18, regardless of the situation.

sjdigital
Mar 23, 2012, 04:17 PM
UK has been a member for almost 30 years.

Er...almost 40 years as we joined on 1st January 1973.

dasmb
Mar 23, 2012, 04:18 PM
Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad or help someone with computer problems.

I'm going to put you down because you're complaining you can't work retail when you can write software. This is like Babe Ruth complaining they won't let him sell hot dogs at the park.

dermeister
Mar 23, 2012, 04:18 PM
Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

You obviously don't understand economics.

When Apple has a "lack in supply of iPad", what we really mean is that there aren't enough iPads to meet demand... AT THAT PRICE. The bold part is crucial. In order to equalize supply and demand (and for Apple to maximize profits), sellers of products normally (throughout most of economic history) adjust the price. So in this case, the price should be higher until there is enough supply and then the price can be reduced to keep enough demand to eat the supply.

But Apple doesn't adjust prices based on availability or use an auction system. Instead they launch with constrained supply, a fixed price, and the result is massive waiting periods and physical line-ups. The amount of time spent by people in line-ups is massive (and it has a time and therefore monetary-value).

The resellers are not doing anything evil or sleazy. They are not "gouging". The technical term is arbitrage. Apple doesn't adjust the price to match market conditions, which means Apple is actually under-selling the iPad during the first weeks with low supply. The resellers are noticing this arbitrage window which is basically money that Apple has left on the table and doing what Apple should have done and making the profit for the trouble. Their profit is the discrepancy between the market-price and the fixed retail price.

Thanks to resellers, customers don't have to wait in line-ups. If you want it, you can have it on the spot - you just have to be willing to bid more than your fellow iPad addict. If you want it so badly you're willing to pay a few hundred bucks more, it can be arranged.

The fact that the resellers are returning the iPad means that Apple has done something right - they didn't move to an auctioning system - and frankly it would feel weird for them to do so - rather, they made sure they had adequate supply built-up this time.

Good for Apple. Good for the customer. The resellers will always find another arbitrage window to close. And that's good for the customer too.

88 King
Mar 23, 2012, 04:19 PM
Er...almost 40 years as we joined on 1st January 1973.

Dammit, I'm going to ask my partner over when I need to count more than 20 the next time. :o

FloatingBones
Mar 23, 2012, 04:22 PM
Even if the scalpers get every penny back, they expended a considerable amount of time and expense with this process. Once the scalpers learn that Apple is fully capable of delivering to the day-one demand for a product, they will stop trying to scalp new product releases.

The marketplace is resilient and fluid. Once an opportunity to make money has been removed, people will move on to some other technique.

One thought: it would have been fun if Apple had some plain-clothes guy who was walking near the line and randomly saying "Boo!" to the nervous people. :eek:

dasmb
Mar 23, 2012, 04:23 PM
Are you smoking crack, or did I just miss your sarcasm? :confused:

Cynicism...my point was that many of the policies made in the EU just aren't adopted by the UK, from the Euro to work and immigration policy.

clarkie604
Mar 23, 2012, 04:25 PM
That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

I think your mostly correct. But note that a promise to give you 14 days to return the product, no questions asked, can be part of the contract. This actually can be a complicated analysis, but the gist is - what did the parties intend.

almonde
Mar 23, 2012, 04:27 PM
Cynicism...my point was that many of the policies made in the EU just aren't adopted by the UK, from the Euro to work and immigration policy.

There's some truth in that

sclawis300
Mar 23, 2012, 04:30 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

Good luck trying that crap in the states. If it is your policy when you sell it then I bought it under the assumption that I could return it. The policy does not have any stipulations on it. That is not my fault, it is Apples. Why they don't have a limit on the number you can buy, I don't know. 30 seems a bit excessive.

----------

They could have a 5 item return limit per day.

something to still accept them but make it a pain to do.
Track based on Driver's License or ID like Best Buy and pharmacies who can only sell X amount of allergy stuff.

you mean sudafed? Never heard of a limit on allergy meds.

clarkie604
Mar 23, 2012, 04:30 PM
Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad or help someone with computer problems.

Dude, you sound just like a normal teenager.

dasmb
Mar 23, 2012, 04:31 PM
Good luck trying that crap in the states. If it is your policy when you sell it then I bought it under the assumption that I could return it. The policy does not have any stipulations on it. That is not my fault, it is Apples. Why they don't have a limit on the number you can buy, I don't know. 30 seems a bit excessive.

Even if they only allowed one per person, you could still have 30 employees buy one each. And return them all, on 30 separate receipts, in one trip. Seems arbitrary to make any such distinction when there's sufficient supply.

Heck, if I had a company that build iPad apps (oh wait, I do!), I'd want to be able to grab them in bulk. One for each developer, tester and salesman.

sclawis300
Mar 23, 2012, 04:32 PM
I have a friend that works at an Apple Store and he said that they were dealing with unscrupulous resellers who returned shrink wrapped "New iPads" that actually had iPad 2's inside. Crazy.

I returned an unopened kindle to walmart. The dude cut it open to verify it was really there.

jackhdev
Mar 23, 2012, 04:33 PM
Dude, you sound just like a normal teenager.

How do you figure? I defended myself. I didn't insult him or mock him in any way, I just stood up for myself.

clarkie604
Mar 23, 2012, 04:36 PM
Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

Look up the definition for gouging -- you definitely don't know what it means.

Sleazy is in the eye of the beholder. I think spending a day in line in order to buy an expensive product while your Mom works all day to pay for it is a lot more sleazy then spending that time in line to buy something with a plan for legitimate resale.

No price is ridiculous if someone is willing to pay it.

sclawis300
Mar 23, 2012, 04:44 PM
WTF?

This is the most basic contract law. Calling it English common law is unfair since it probably goes back to the stone age.

You go to the Apple store.
You agree to pay $599 for an iPad.
The guy in the store gives you the iPad.
You leave.

If there's nothing wrong with the iPad, and we can assume that there's nothing wrong with your $599 since dollars are fungible, then both sides have fulfilled their obligations under the contract. You can't suddenly decide you don't want the iPad anymore and force Apple to dissolve the contract anymore than Apple can retroactively raise the price.

That Apple chooses to accept returns does not even begin to imply that they're obligated to do so.

ummmmmmmmm, yes it does. If you sell me something and tell me I have 14 days to return it to you no questions asked and I try to return it to you and you say no, then you are doing exactly what your first paragraph says you cant. does not work like that.

----------

Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

there are some old people at my store...clueless, but old.

----------

Naive, youthful narcissism at its finest. Yeah, I knew more than everyone else on the planet at your age as well. Most everyone does. Then the planet taught me some life lessons, as it does to all naive young narcissists. :rolleyes:

ha ha, I am so stupid, I thought he was implying he was too old.

James Craner
Mar 23, 2012, 04:46 PM
You obviously don't understand economics.

When Apple has a "lack in supply of iPad", what we really mean is that there aren't enough iPads to meet demand... AT THAT PRICE. The bold part is crucial. In order to equalize supply and demand (and for Apple to maximize profits), sellers of products normally (throughout most of economic history) adjust the price. So in this case, the price should be higher until there is enough supply and then the price can be reduced to keep enough demand to eat the supply.

But Apple doesn't adjust prices based on availability or use an auction system. Instead they launch with constrained supply, a fixed price, and the result is massive waiting periods and physical line-ups. The amount of time spent by people in line-ups is massive (and it has a time and therefore monetary-value).

The resellers are not doing anything evil or sleazy. They are not "gouging". The technical term is arbitrage. Apple doesn't adjust the price to match market conditions, which means Apple is actually under-selling the iPad during the first weeks with low supply. The resellers are noticing this arbitrage window which is basically money that Apple has left on the table and doing what Apple should have done and making the profit for the trouble. Their profit is the discrepancy between the market-price and the fixed retail price.

Thanks to resellers, customers don't have to wait in line-ups. If you want it, you can have it on the spot - you just have to be willing to bid more than your fellow iPad addict. If you want it so badly you're willing to pay a few hundred bucks more, it can be arranged.

The fact that the resellers are returning the iPad means that Apple has done something right - they didn't move to an auctioning system - and frankly it would feel weird for them to do so - rather, they made sure they had adequate supply built-up this time.

Good for Apple. Good for the customer. The resellers will always find another arbitrage window to close. And that's good for the customer too.

I am an accountant and I fully understand the concept of supply and demand but as far as I am concerned it's just greed, these people add no value to society in what they do, they hope that they can deny the opportunity to some hard working person, who is unable to get to the store or internet quick enough to buy the product at the price that the manufacturer sets, just to make a quick profit themselves.

Bossworld
Mar 23, 2012, 04:47 PM
Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

They don't want/need 'know it alls' and 'fanboys', they need good sales people and people with good customer service skills.

Went for a group interview at a UK store a couple of years back, looking back I'm glad I didn't get it as I've got a much better paid tech job elsewhere, but there were plenty of people with Apple experience, those who owned lots of Apple products, and even a lad who ran the in-store Apple concession in PC World. None of them got a job at the store. The only thing you offer over other people is the ability to answer questions from people like yourself. How many people go into the stores for that in comparison to the number who just go in to buy the latest gadget?

jackhdev
Mar 23, 2012, 04:57 PM
They don't want/need 'know it alls' and 'fanboys', they need good sales people and people with good customer service skills.

Went for a group interview at a UK store a couple of years back, looking back I'm glad I didn't get it as I've got a much better paid tech job elsewhere, but there were plenty of people with Apple experience, those who owned lots of Apple products, and even a lad who ran the in-store Apple concession in PC World. None of them got a job at the store. The only thing you offer over other people is the ability to answer questions from people like yourself. How many people go into the stores for that in comparison to the number who just go in to buy the latest gadget?

There's the Genius Bar. I can give people an answer to almost any question immediately instead of "I'll be right back." Also, people always ask why they should buy something over something else.

Before I got certified, I had a basic server question, just about setting up a website, and no one could answer it. They were selling Snow Leopard Server for $499 and no one could answer the most basic questions. That's great.

Dillenger
Mar 23, 2012, 04:59 PM
Dear Chinese ReSellers, "No Egg Drop Soup FOR YOU!!!" :D

LobsterDK
Mar 23, 2012, 04:59 PM
Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad or help someone with computer problems.

In 1637, I was hatched on the planet Light Beer. In the 37 nanoseconds I spent in a gestation chamber I learned Kung Fu, the kazoo, and the wisdom of not biting my sister. By the time I had conquered the planet of the very lonely cantaloupe woman (microwave baby, microwave), I had already developed a 6th sense, being able to tell the difference between my ass, a hole in the ground, and a bucket of KFC - extra crispy.

Not long after, I invented Velcro and those obnoxious plastic blister packages. Within two millennia of my eleventy-first birthday, Liv Tyler pledged her undieing love to me. Orlando Bloom is still pissed about that.

P.S. do you seriously not recognize the irony in my "narcissism" comment and your response? Love ya though... I'm a life long developer myself. I would recommend toning down my boastful bravado. It's going to do you NO favors when you are out in the adult workforce that you are currently bitter to not be a part of.*

Chocolate covered advice #1: Be proud of your accomplishments, but try to keep your superiority complex in check.*Unless you are John Carmack or Tim Sweeny's understudy, your skill set is neither unique nor irreplaceable(we developers are EVERYWHERE)... you'll learn that soon enough should your behavior warrant the lesson. Nor does your experience give you ANY right to claim intellectual superiority over people you don't know. That sort of behavior? It's called narcissism.

But enough of this silly bickering. Keep at it man! Last thing in the world I would ever do is discourage someone from learning to code and stretch their mental muscle. Just save the chest thumping till you are a bit older, have learned a thing or two, and have had a few beers like me ;)

Navdakilla
Mar 23, 2012, 05:03 PM
definitely should pose a restocking fee, to get rid of some of these people

shanmugam
Mar 23, 2012, 05:14 PM
Pre-Order!!! problem solved.

0dev
Mar 23, 2012, 05:18 PM
Is that a law?

I find that kind of ridiculous.

I highly doubt that it's true since EU legislation - which the UK has a history of following to the letter - states that there must be a 30 day window of return for items even if they are not damaged. I have, in the past, been able to use this in UK shops to return working items I have opened and used.

Phil A.
Mar 23, 2012, 05:21 PM
I highly doubt that it's true since EU legislation - which the UK has a history of following to the letter - states that there must be a 30 day window of return for items even if they are not damaged. I have, in the past, been able to use this in UK shops to return working items I have opened and used.

There is no legal right to a refund in the UK if you simply change your mind; although many stores do allow returns, they have no legal obligation to do so.
This paragraph explains it quite clearly

Customers return goods to retailers every day and many of them ask for refunds.
Circumstances when customers do not have a legal right to a refund, repair or replacement

Customers do not have a legal right to a refund, repair or replacement from you if they
accidentally damaged the item
misused it and caused a fault
tried to repair it themselves or had someone else try to repair it, which damaged the item*
if they knew it was faulty before they bought it
if they decide they no longer want the item (for example it's the wrong size or colour, or does not suit them).



*The customer does not have a legal right to a refund, repair or replacement as a result of the damage their repair attempt has caused to the item. But, they may still have a right to a remedy because of the original fault with the item, such as a price reduction or a partial refund. Or, if appropriate, the customer may request a repair of the original fault if this makes the item usable despite the damage they have caused. See Faulty goods that have been accepted for more information about these remedies.


Source: UK Office of Fair Trading Website (http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/sogaexplained/)

The main exception is if you buy goods (for example) over the internet rather than in a store, when the distance selling regulations do give you the right to return goods for no reason

LobsterDK
Mar 23, 2012, 05:23 PM
Uh, no... the only difference is that I've proved myself. Let's start with OS X. I have six certifications from Apple and I had to read and learn about 2,500 pages of information. I have 16 apps on the App Store (self taught objective-c, my first programming language) and I'm constantly being hired or asked to work. The IT department at my school has no idea what they're doing, even though it's their job, and I am always asked for advice. In middle school, the headmaster based some of his choices and opinions about the iPad pilot program based on what I had to say.

I really have better things to do than brag, which I'm not trying to do, but I can't express to you how much it angers me when I am put down and treated like a normal teenager. I don't know what you meant when you said that you knew more than everyone else at your age, as "most everyone does", but I'm not an idiot, so don't treat me like one. I'm sure I can stand in a store and explain to people why they should buy an iPad or help someone with computer problems.

He probably does, the 'genius' title for apple employees is a joke. Ever dealt with any of them on an actual technical problem? Its not a whole lot of fun. I was treated like an idiot when my Macbook Pro was having display issues when connected to an external monitor. I even brought videos to show the problems i was having at home (because i wasnt going to carry my 24" monitor like a dingbat)... needless to say, the problem was never fixed because it was apple's awful graphics drivers that was the problem.

----------



Would this be a good time to use the word 'pwned' ?

It's always a good time to say 'pwned'. Just like there is always room for Jello. And the check is always in the mail. I occasionally like to stand on a crowded street corner, point to the sky and scream "A flock of turtles!!". It's always the right time for that.... Unless I have a migraine due to a tequila hangover. Or we are in the midst of a mass extinction due to a meteor impact. That's when I start raiding the woman's toiletries section at Kroger's (it's happened twice now!)

0dev
Mar 23, 2012, 05:26 PM
There is no legal right to a refund in the UK if you simply change your mind; although many stores do allow one, they have no legal obligation to do so.
This paragraph explains it quite clearly


Source: UK Office of Fair Trading Website (http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/sogaexplained/)

Huh, you learn something new every day.

For the record, Sainsbury's let me return a phone I'd been using for a month, so they're good guys :p

Heavysound
Mar 23, 2012, 05:27 PM
Just to clarify the legal issues:

In the UK (which is composed of three completely separate jurisdictions of England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but whatever) there is no obligation imposed by any statute (common law tends not to apply as consumer relations are all governed by statute now; it's far easier to regulate and leaves the affairs of society less susceptible to intervention by the ageing - and non-representative - judiciary) on retailers to accept returned goods where there is no evidence of that the goods did not conform to their description or proved faulty. Where either of these instances does occur, the relevant legislative provisions are sections 13 and 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

As far as EU membership is concerned, as a Member State, the UK must enforce all EU Regulations and comply with all EU Directives (both being binding supranational legislative instruments; the former applying across the Union and the latter applying specifically to those Member States named in its address (normally all Member States but sometimes Malta is left out because we keep forgetting it's there), usually allowing a two-year grace period for Member States to incorporate the provisions therein into their national law(s)). Sale of Goods legislation at the supranational level is contained in Directive 1999/44/EC which applies to the UK and has been in force for 13 years. It is not necessary to refer to it at the national level as the national law (SoGA 1979) is already in accordance with it and reference to it would only occur where a challenge was mounted in the ECJ.

Retailers generally provide the policies mentioned for the purposes of goodwill and to establish and maintain customer loyalty and trust. What would stop bulk buying and returning situations are restrictions on the initial purchase quantity.

I'm a final year law student and a retail manager, by the way; it seemed like I should chip in. I'm also ridiculously obsessed with presentation and seem to have edited this thrice already.

0dev
Mar 23, 2012, 05:29 PM
Just to clarify the legal issues:

In the UK (which is composed of three completely separate jurisdictions of England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but whatever) there is no obligation imposed by any statute (common law tends not to apply as consumer relations are all governed by statute now; it's far easier to regulate and leaves the affairs of society less susceptible to intervention by the ageing - and non-representative - judiciary) on retailers to accept returned goods where there is no evidence of that the goods did not conform to their description or proved faulty. Where either of these instances does occur, the relevant legislative provisions are sections 13 and 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

As far as EU membership is concerned, as a Member State, the UK must enforce all EU Regulations and comply with all EU Directives (both being binding supranational legislative instruments; the former applying across the Union and the latter applying specifically to those Member States named in its address (normally all Member States but sometimes Malta is left out because we keep forgetting it's there), usually allowing a two-year grace period for Member States to incorporate the provisions therein into its national law). Sale of Goods legislation at the supranational level is contained in Directive 1999/44/EC which applies to the UK and has been in force for 13 years. It is not necessary to refer to it at the national level as the national law (SoGA 1979) is already in accordance with it and reference to it would only occur where a challenge was mounted in the ECJ.

Retailers generally provide the policies mentioned for the purposes of goodwill and to establish and maintain customer loyalty and trust. What would stop bulk buying and returning situations are restrictions on the initial purchase quantity.

I'm a final year law student and a retail manager by the way; it seemed like I should chip in.

Thank you Mr. Lawyer, I consider myself a little more educated than I was 10 minutes ago :cool:

Phil A.
Mar 23, 2012, 05:30 PM
Huh, you learn something new every day.

For the record, Sainsbury's let me return a phone I'd been using for a month, so they're good guys :p

To be fair, most stores do allow you to return goods if you change your mind, but it's always worth double checking.

Heavysound
Mar 23, 2012, 05:32 PM
Thank you Mr. Lawyer, I consider myself a little more educated than I was 10 minutes ago :cool:

Nae bother. :)

psxp
Mar 23, 2012, 05:41 PM
Well, I had bought 2 ipads in the US while traveling as wasnt sure which to keep. I decided to keep the 4G one.
I couldnt return to Apple in Canada as it was a US purchase.

Back in Toronto, I listed the one I didnt want (Wifi) in the local classifieds at below the Canadian Retail price + taxes and had very few emails about it. I had the usual wankers offer me $300 for it. etc. But what surprised me was there are tons of listings for iPads on craigslist and Kijiji.ca for hundreds more $$ over retail. Are they selling? maybe.. maybe not.

Anyway, it took me three days to sell mine. They guy was happy he got it for a fair price and I paid off my Credit card.

kdarling
Mar 23, 2012, 06:16 PM
There is no legal right to a refund in the UK if you simply change your mind; although many stores do allow returns, they have no legal obligation to do so.
This paragraph explains it quite clearly (snip)


Those rules sound like they apply after the package has been opened and the item has been used.

These iPads are brand new, in still unopened boxes.

Is there a rule for that in the UK?

Thanks!

LobsterDK
Mar 23, 2012, 06:32 PM
Just to clarify the legal issues:

In the UK (which is composed of three completely separate jurisdictions of England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but whatever) there is no obligation imposed by any statute (common law tends not to apply as consumer relations are all governed by statute now; it's far easier to regulate and leaves the affairs of society less susceptible to intervention by the ageing - and non-representative - judiciary) on retailers to accept returned goods where there is no evidence of that the goods did not conform to their description or proved faulty. Where either of these instances does occur, the relevant legislative provisions are sections 13 and 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

As far as EU membership is concerned, as a Member State, the UK must enforce all EU Regulations and comply with all EU Directives (both being binding supranational legislative instruments; the former applying across the Union and the latter applying specifically to those Member States named in its address (normally all Member States but sometimes Malta is left out because we keep forgetting it's there), usually allowing a two-year grace period for Member States to incorporate the provisions therein into their national law(s)). Sale of Goods legislation at the supranational level is contained in Directive 1999/44/EC which applies to the UK and has been in force for 13 years. It is not necessary to refer to it at the national level as the national law (SoGA 1979) is already in accordance with it and reference to it would only occur where a challenge was mounted in the ECJ.

Retailers generally provide the policies mentioned for the purposes of goodwill and to establish and maintain customer loyalty and trust. What would stop bulk buying and returning situations are restrictions on the initial purchase quantity.

I'm a final year law student and a retail manager, by the way; it seemed like I should chip in. I'm also ridiculously obsessed with presentation and seem to have edited this thrice already.

SILENCE! We will have none of your rationality and education! Not once did I see any spittle on your chin during this.

Mods: I'm just being playful. I don't post much. I'm highly allergic to ban hammers. I have 2 1/3 dogs and a son that was once a Siamese twin to a cheeseburger. Both were surgically remove from my left wallet.

kurosov
Mar 23, 2012, 06:35 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

********.

techweenie
Mar 23, 2012, 06:46 PM
It was fun watching people try to grab the brass ring and sell their iPad 3 for $1000 on Craigslist last Friday. Prices are drifting down for those units -- some are basically being offered at a loss.

Apple timed production perfectly to get all the money and leave nothing on the table. Good for the stock value. Bad for the scalpers.

Rocketman
Mar 23, 2012, 06:50 PM
Buy in a low sales tax state, sell in a high sales tax state. Hmmm.

KPOM
Mar 23, 2012, 07:06 PM
Buy in a low sales tax state, sell in a high sales tax state. Hmmm.

Maybe with the new iPhone we'll see throngs of would-be resellers lined up outside the Apple Store in Nashua, New Hampshire. :D

I, for one, am happy that Apple is able to keep up with demand. It improves the buying experience for the average consumer.

zarusoba
Mar 23, 2012, 07:15 PM
I like what that girl in the foreground is wearing... Now, what's all this about returns?

Shaun, UK
Mar 23, 2012, 07:40 PM
That is the law in the UK. Unless the item is faulty or missold (i.e you were told it did something it doesn't) you have no right to a refund. It makes perfect sense.

Unless you bought the items on the internet in which case the distance selling regulations apply and you do have a legal right to return items for a full refund subject to certain conditions.

Apple OC
Mar 23, 2012, 07:42 PM
looks like the Party never happened this time in Scalper Town

Defender2010
Mar 23, 2012, 08:00 PM
So many conflicting reports about returns....
If the goods are unopened the customer has a right to a full refund providing the box is unopened and they have proof of purchase within 14 days.. Fact. The only exemption to this is if a 'no returns policy' is outlined by the vendor during the initial transaction. Good luck to a retailer who denies a refund if the customer changes their mind and wants to return an unopened undamaged item, in the above circumstances. They would be in breach of contract under the sales of goods act and liable to be prosecuted.
So it didn't work out for the scalpers. It's their right to a refund. Now all you US folk could be in possession of a once scalped iPad. Haha...what about returning it? Lol

----------

********.

I agree, this quote is BS

noteple
Mar 23, 2012, 08:12 PM
I was only allowed to preorder two.

Maybe you should only be allowed to return two. :cool:

JasperJanssen
Mar 23, 2012, 08:26 PM
Just to clarify the legal issues:

In the UK (which is composed of three completely separate jurisdictions of England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but whatever) there is no obligation imposed by any statute (common law tends not to apply as consumer relations are all governed by statute now; it's far easier to regulate and leaves the affairs of society less susceptible to intervention by the ageing - and non-representative - judiciary) on retailers to accept returned goods where there is no evidence of that the goods did not conform to their description or proved faulty. Where either of these instances does occur, the relevant legislative provisions are sections 13 and 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

As far as EU membership is concerned, as a Member State, the UK must enforce all EU Regulations and comply with all EU Directives (both being binding supranational legislative instruments; the former applying across the Union and the latter applying specifically to those Member States named in its address (normally all Member States but sometimes Malta is left out because we keep forgetting it's there), usually allowing a two-year grace period for Member States to incorporate the provisions therein into their national law(s)). Sale of Goods legislation at the supranational level is contained in Directive 1999/44/EC which applies to the UK and has been in force for 13 years. It is not necessary to refer to it at the national level as the national law (SoGA 1979) is already in accordance with it and reference to it would only occur where a challenge was mounted in the ECJ.

Retailers generally provide the policies mentioned for the purposes of goodwill and to establish and maintain customer loyalty and trust. What would stop bulk buying and returning situations are restrictions on the initial purchase quantity.

I'm a final year law student and a retail manager, by the way; it seemed like I should chip in. I'm also ridiculously obsessed with presentation and seem to have edited this thrice already.

A slight addition:

- If your store policies (as, for example, outlined on the receipt) say you accept returns, then you are obligated to accept returns under those conditions. Not doing so after saying initially you would is a breach.

- If you don't say anything about it, you're not required to accept returns, except under the conditions above such as faulty product.


To the best of my knowledge this is also generally the case in the States.


So many conflicting reports about returns....
If the goods are unopened the customer has a right to a full refund providing the box is unopened and they have proof of purchase within 14 days.. Fact. The only exemption to this is if a 'no returns policy' is outlined by the vendor during the initial transaction. Good luck to a retailer who denies a refund if the customer changes their mind and wants to return an unopened undamaged item, in the above circumstances.

Would you mind looking up which law says in the US that, barring an explicit agreement to the contrary, there must be a return policy and there must be at least 14 days? Since you say it is a FACT and everybpdy else here seems to think there is no such law, it should be easy for you to find.

P.S.: In general there is an awful lot of ******** in consumer's mind regarding consumer protection laws. They neither go as far as some people think they do, nor do they eave so much out as others do.

Lukeyy19
Mar 23, 2012, 08:28 PM
Those rules sound like they apply after the package has been opened and the item has been used.

These iPads are brand new, in still unopened boxes.

Is there a rule for that in the UK?

Thanks!

The same rules apply, if you purchased something, you entered into a legally binding contract, if you then decide you don't want it, that's your fault, not the store, why would they be forced to refund you for your mistake? However, stores in the UK generally offer a 30 day money back guarantee because as long as it comes back unopened they can resell it as new with no effect, and the guarantee gives customers more incentive to buy, but this is a policy implemented by the store, not a law/act.

On the other hand, if you order something online or via mail order, there is regulation that states that you can return an item unopened for any or no reason within 7 days of receiving it, but you are responsible for the cost of sending it back.

Defender2010
Mar 23, 2012, 08:45 PM
A slight addition:

- If your store policies (as, for example, outlined on the receipt) say you accept returns, then you are obligated to accept returns under those conditions. Not doing so after saying initially you would is a breach.

- If you don't say anything about it, you're not required to accept returns, except under the conditions above such as faulty product.


To the best of my knowledge this is also generally the case in the States.




Would you mind looking up which law says in the US that, barring an explicit agreement to the contrary, there must be a return policy and there must be at least 14 days? Since you say it is a FACT and everybpdy else here seems to think there is no such law, it should be easy for you to find.

P.S.: In general there is an awful lot of ******** in consumer's mind regarding consumer protection laws. They neither go as far as some people think they do, nor do they eave so much out as others do.

I was referring to the UK

Heavysound
Mar 23, 2012, 08:49 PM
A slight addition:

- If your store policies (as, for example, outlined on the receipt) say you accept returns, then you are obligated to accept returns under those conditions. Not doing so after saying initially you would is a breach.

- If you don't say anything about it, you're not required to accept returns, except under the conditions above such as faulty product.

My apologies for not clarifying that promises made by a vendor to prospective buyers constitutes a promissory element of a contract of sale upon acceptance of an offer to purchase on the buyer's behalf. Given the variations in contract law in the respective jurisdictions of the UK I felt that this was best left out of discussion (and somewhat implied by the whole individual policy thing).

maprx
Mar 23, 2012, 08:52 PM
The resellers or sometimes called diverters, shop at all places, big department stores, they buy on sale and on credit and ship back to china. They take bulk items and break apart to resale at higher markups. The ipad 3 is being available all over kinda broke the reseller game. But they should charge a restocking fee if they buy more then a few units. Many online stores do this, ie Dell, Best Buy. In a way its like money laundering.

iSayuSay
Mar 23, 2012, 08:54 PM
Wirelessly posted

The girl in white seems cute. So please honey:

Scalp me and take my money!!!
And leave me your number .... Lol

Heavysound
Mar 23, 2012, 08:58 PM
So many conflicting reports about returns....
If the goods are unopened the customer has a right to a full refund providing the box is unopened and they have proof of purchase within 14 days.. Fact. The only exemption to this is if a 'no returns policy' is outlined by the vendor during the initial transaction. Good luck to a retailer who denies a refund if the customer changes their mind and wants to return an unopened undamaged item, in the above circumstances. They would be in breach of contract under the sales of goods act and liable to be prosecuted.

a) Conflicting reports? I take slight issue with this given my post explains the circumstances under which goods may be returned to a vendor according to the relevant statutory provisions.

b) If you're going to say '.. [sic] Fact [sic]', then at least point your reader to the exact authority upon which you base your proposition (a section, even a hyperlink to an authoritative online source?).

c) Please read the Act before making vague claims about what options may and may not be available to consumers under the provisions therein.

ncc1701d
Mar 23, 2012, 09:22 PM
I live in Hong Kong and when the iPad2 came out I wanted to get one. It was impossible - unless you wanted to pay 3 times the retail price at a resellers store. I told them to take a flying leap.

When the iPad3 came out I happened to be in the US and ordered one online to pick up at (ironically), the 5th Avenue store, as I didn't want to miss out again (and refuse to pay more than retail). I took a hit on the sales tax, but that was fine by me to stick it to the scalpers.

As far as I'm concerned what apple has done this time is excellent. Now if we could just sort out concert tickets the same way.

trunten
Mar 23, 2012, 09:22 PM
isnt there a EU law that says u can return anything within 14 days for no reason? or is the UK excluded from this when it comes to EU stuff as usual :p

Online only I'm afraid.

SlugBlanket
Mar 23, 2012, 09:39 PM
Sadly these resellers still get the last laugh. Yes they were unable to cash in on their investment but what other circumstances do you know of where you can make a bad investment and yet get back 100% of your cash no questions asked?

Not many I suspect.

FakeWozniak
Mar 23, 2012, 09:50 PM
What a horrible mess from either a consumer or merchant standpoint.

So Apple takes these things back, pulls off the cellophane proves they are the new iPad, and puts it back on the shelf. Do they go as refurbished or new?

If they go as new, I sure the hell wouldn't want it compared to a brand new one. God knows what the resellers did to it.

If they go as refurbished, Apple takes an unnecessary loss on a product.


Bonus thought... Am I the only one that can imagine smelling 'Chinese Air' released from a freshly unboxed product? The air is captured in the product when the cover is put on and wrapped in plastic back in the factory in China. I always imagine is smells like fried rice with a hint of fortune cookie. Maybe Apple could infuse cleaner air to make the unboxing a perfect experience.

FakeWozniak
Mar 23, 2012, 10:00 PM
I was only allowed to preorder two.

Maybe you should only be allowed to return two. :cool:

Excellent point. If you can only buy 2, you should obviously only be able to return 2. If you buy more than 2, on separate days, then it is your own damn fault for buying more without trying the 2 you have.

charlituna
Mar 23, 2012, 11:03 PM
I hope they process the returns reeeeally slowly so they have to wait around for an extended period of time.

They won't because they want to get them out of the store.

But you can bet that they will be requiring a receipt, probably making all cash returns go out as a mailed check and not actually cash (since that would kill their cash supply for change etc) and probably opening up every box to make sure there really is an iPad inside and not paper etc like some scammers tried during the iPad 2 launch. and making sure that the serial on the iPad is the same as the box&receipt and no one is slipping an iPad 2 in the box

----------


In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it.


You can do that in the US as well. But there are certain conditions. Like you have to clearly state at the time of sale that it is final. And you can't do it selectively. You can't say that all iPad sales are final in NYC but in the rest of the country they are not. Nor can you profile customers and say you won't return whatever from particular groups (remember when Apple was called out as racist because they wouldn't take cash for an iPad from a poor black woman.)

Frankly I think it is in their interest to take them back. Even if they are opening the boxes to prove they are what they should be, resealing the box isn't that costly and then they have the models back to official sell and the resellers are out the product to try to make a profit

----------

You're very unlikely to be asked a technical question on a shift.


Depends on what you call 'technical'

if it is a 'what are the specs in this computer, can it run X program" that will be a sales person.

but if it's a tech support question the sales staff are apparently prohibited from answering those and are supposed to refer you to the official techs (i.e. the Geniuses)

----------

I think the rule is 14 or 16, and while I agree with you about scheduling and school, they don't even consider you until you're 18, regardless of the situation.

It's 16 outside of a few odd categories like farming jobs and in some states things like the public library, fast food etc.

But again, companies that require you to sign legal documents like an NDA can be restricted to 18 and up depending on what is the legal age for signing such documents in your state. in most it is 18. And companies generally like to follow one rule so Apple sets it at 18.

Sorry that that wounds your ego (how very typical 'normal' teenager) but it is the rule and how smart you are and how many apps you wrote etc is beside the point. if you are so smart why would you want to work retail anyway. it sucks. you are treated like crap by customers all the time, you generally get lousy hours etc. Use all that knowledge and start your own business.

----------

There's the Genius Bar.


you really think that Apple would hire in some 16 year old to work the Bar. Heck no. You have to work the trenches for that.

And I really do wonder if you could explain to some 70 year old woman that barely understands what the Internet is how to work her iPad without her thinking you are rude. Because frankly your replies on her make you sound like a class A stuck up asshat.

jackhdev
Mar 23, 2012, 11:38 PM
Sorry that that wounds your ego (how very typical 'normal' teenager) but it is the rule and how smart you are and how many apps you wrote etc is beside the point. if you are so smart why would you want to work retail anyway. it sucks. you are treated like crap by customers all the time, you generally get lousy hours etc. Use all that knowledge and start your own business.

----------



you really think that Apple would hire in some 16 year old to work the Bar. Heck no. You have to work the trenches for that.

And I really do wonder if you could explain to some 70 year old woman that barely understands what the Internet is how to work her iPad without her thinking you are rude. Because frankly your replies on her make you sound like a class A stuck up asshat.

Listen man, I don't have an ego (and believe me, I have definitely met people who have egos!). I thought the guy insulted me and I stood up for myself. He has since apologized and seems like a great guy. I'm up for any challenge spreading technology to those interested in it, and I can make technology seem cool and interesting, which is probably why I'm not considered a weirdo. I just got my grandpa set up on a laptop and taught an elderly lady at my school how to use an iPhone 4S. She loves Siri! I would rather interact with other people than sit in a dark room typing all day, as a teenager.

If you're going to sit here and call, I guess you would think a "stupid teenager" a "class A stuck up asshat", then you clearly have your own issues that need to be worked out.

japanime
Mar 23, 2012, 11:44 PM
This is like Babe Ruth complaining they won't let him sell hot dogs at the park.

If a reanimated, 117-year-old Babe Ruth was selling hot dogs at the ballpark, I'd buy two! :D

flynndean
Mar 24, 2012, 12:30 AM
Wirelessly posted

There's a lot of confusion here with regards to UK Consumer Law, and that last Copy + Paste from the "Sale of Goods Act 1979" (as though nothing supercedes it) simply confounded the issue.

Any consumer has a statutory right anywhere in the UK (including "Distance-Selling" (Online)) to return any goods to a store during a 14-Day period following purchase providing the items are in an unused condition & upon production of a verifiable Proof Of Purchase (this can be a receipt, bank statement, or even simply an employee of the store witnessing the transaction). Many stores extend this beyond 30 Day as Store Policy, particularly over the Christmas period, so as to not dissuade Customers from purchasing items as gifts only to be unable to return the goods come January. Outside of the initial 14-Day period, it is left to the discretion of the manager as to whether to restock the goods. Until then, the Store has a legal obligation to refund.

The only exceptions to this are items that clearly cannot be resold due to hygiene reasons even where it appears the items haven't been used (eg. Earrings, Underwear etc.). Even in these instances, the store has a legal responsibility to explain these exemptions to you at the Point of Sale.

Qualifications? Six Years in retail (x5 as a Store Manager (Argos)) & a Law Conversion on my English Degree (+ LPC) from University of Exeter, specialising in Consumer Law.

I suspect with regards to these Chinese resellers that the returns have little to do with Supply & Demand. These iPads would have been purchased in anticipation of Stock Shortages, with a view to the resellers being in a position to sell at an inflated price while Stock replenished. Where these shortages failed to materialise to the degree that the resellers expected, they're now returning retail stock as they will presumably have an avenue to purchase with some level of reseller discounting through the standard Distribution Channel.

This happens all the time where stock shortages on any item are expected. I used to see it all the time around the launch period of games consoles etc.

macsrcool1234
Mar 24, 2012, 01:15 AM
What a horrible mess from either a consumer or merchant standpoint.

So Apple takes these things back, pulls off the cellophane proves they are the new iPad, and puts it back on the shelf. Do they go as refurbished or new?

If they go as new, I sure the hell wouldn't want it compared to a brand new one. God knows what the resellers did to it.

If they go as refurbished, Apple takes an unnecessary loss on a product.


Bonus thought... Am I the only one that can imagine smelling 'Chinese Air' released from a freshly unboxed product? The air is captured in the product when the cover is put on and wrapped in plastic back in the factory in China. I always imagine is smells like fried rice with a hint of fortune cookie. Maybe Apple could infuse cleaner air to make the unboxing a perfect experience.
Hoping I don't get banned.
The only response I can muster to this is..what the #$!% is wrong with you?

Reason077
Mar 24, 2012, 02:17 AM
Makes sense, but I don't agree with it. Impulse purchases, gifts, clothes that dont fit, wrong items accidentally purchased, etc are all legit cases where a return & refund would be necessary.

I imagine in the UK mindless shopping isnt as rampant as it is in USA?

In the UK, just like the USA, the vast majority of reputable retailers (including Apple) accept "no questions asked" returns within a limited period after sale.

There are a few notable exceptions to this, such as a vile shoe retailer known as "Office", as my girlfriend found out. But you quickly learn not to shop at those places.

The point is, that there isn't a law that requires retails to accept returns (unless mis-sold or faulty, etc). There isn't such a law in the USA, either.

Reason077
Mar 24, 2012, 02:30 AM
So many conflicting reports about returns....
If the goods are unopened the customer has a right to a full refund providing the box is unopened and they have proof of purchase within 14 days.. Fact.


There is no such requirement, for physical high-street retailers, in the UK.

You may be thinking of online & mail-order retailers, where there is a legal "7 day cooling off period" where they are required to accept returns.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/mar/09/consumers-right-to-return-online-goods

SoGood
Mar 24, 2012, 03:02 AM
Everyone hate scalpers, guts, both inside and outside of China. This is an excellent outcome for all. It'll also mean there'll likely be fewer scalpers lining up at the next product release to obstruct us real buyers.

580exII
Mar 24, 2012, 03:20 AM
Wirelessly posted

Of course they return it because they cannot Hack the new OS and cannot download and upload all free program from here in the US they find out the SOPA law yeah that's right stop the piracy

macingman
Mar 24, 2012, 03:38 AM
Makes sense, but I don't agree with it. Impulse purchases, gifts, clothes that dont fit, wrong items accidentally purchased, etc are all legit cases where a return & refund would be necessary.

I imagine in the UK mindless shopping isnt as rampant as it is in USA?

That's all the purchasers fault. Why should a seller be responsible for a mistake the buyer makes?

weckart
Mar 24, 2012, 03:42 AM
Wirelessly posted

There's a lot of confusion here with regards to UK Consumer Law, and that last Copy + Paste from the "Sale of Goods Act 1979" (as though nothing supercedes it) simply confounded the issue.

Any consumer has a statutory right anywhere in the UK (including "Distance-Selling" (Online)) to return any goods to a store during a 14-Day period following purchase providing the items are in an unused condition & upon production of a verifiable Proof Of Purchase (this can be a receipt, bank statement, or even simply an employee of the store witnessing the transaction)... Outside of the initial 14-Day period, it is left to the discretion of the manager as to whether to restock the goods. Until then, the Store has a legal obligation to refund.


Qualifications? Six Years in retail (x5 as a Store Manager (Argos)) & a Law Conversion on my English Degree (+ LPC) from University of Exeter, specialising in Consumer Law.


Nothing supersedes the SoGA 1979 in the UK except the subsequent minor amendments to it in the noughties. If you are convinced through your Argos experience that there is a statutory right to a refund on unwanted and unused goods for up to a fortnight after purchase then perhaps you might be kind enough to provide us with said provisions in the SoGA. The DSR are a separate addition for specific classes of purchase - i.e. remotely or from door to door sales - and do not apply wholesale to in store purchases.

The only conflation I see here is an inability to distinguish between Argos store policy and statutory legislation. Frankly, you should know better.

Here is the Office of Fair Trading's take on the matter:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/sogaexplained/

locust76
Mar 24, 2012, 03:44 AM
Listen man, I don't have an ego (and believe me, I have definitely met people who have egos!). I thought the guy insulted me and I stood up for myself. He has since apologized and seems like a great guy. I'm up for any challenge spreading technology to those interested in it, and I can make technology seem cool and interesting, which is probably why I'm not considered a weirdo. I just got my grandpa set up on a laptop and taught an elderly lady at my school how to use an iPhone 4S. She loves Siri! I would rather interact with other people than sit in a dark room typing all day, as a teenager.

If you're going to sit here and call, I guess you would think a "stupid teenager" a "class A stuck up asshat", then you clearly have your own issues that need to be worked out.

I used to like teaching people to use computers just like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee....

No, in all seriousness, I got burned out after a job in retail. It's ok to be the "friendly local computer guru" once in a while, but having droves and droves of people coming to me posing the same stupid questions over and over again drained my soul.

I understand that most people don't understand these sorts of things, but trying to do right by explaining something technical only to have it fly from one ear, behind glassed over eyes, right out the other just depressed the hell out of me.

I will never work retail again. Customers are horrible.

Macman45
Mar 24, 2012, 03:47 AM
It's a real shame that a restocking fee doesn't apply in this case.

It should. Apple got the stock right with the new iPad. I've never really understood the mentality of these people anyway, But as you point out, if a fee were to be applied, it might dissuade them in future.

I don't stand in line, I deal through Apple directly, and had my new one on launch day, probably before most of the folks standing in line at least here in the UK...( UPS came early ) Maybe charge these speculators $50.00? Seems logical to me.

Defender2010
Mar 24, 2012, 04:02 AM
a) Conflicting reports? I take slight issue with this given my post explains the circumstances under which goods may be returned to a vendor according to the relevant statutory provisions.

b) If you're going to say '.. [sic] Fact [sic]', then at least point your reader to the exact authority upon which you base your proposition (a section, even a hyperlink to an authoritative online source?).

c) Please read the Act before making vague claims about what options may and may not be available to consumers under the provisions therein.

Fact
It's Friday night so forgive me for not wanting to get into nitty gritty about retail law. I work in retail so I ll practice what I preach and keep my customers thanks. I really have can't be arsed getting into details with someone like you. As far as Apple retail is concerned every customer can get a full refund of the want it, providing they have a receipt. Fact , because I worked for them for 2 years and this was the practice. Shout and quote SOG all you want, but in 'practice' a refund is given to keep the customer happy. Nothing further to add your honour.

Hawkeye411
Mar 24, 2012, 05:07 AM
a) Conflicting reports? I take slight issue with this given my post explains the circumstances under which goods may be returned to a vendor according to the relevant statutory provisions.

b) If you're going to say '.. [sic] Fact [sic]', then at least point your reader to the exact authority upon which you base your proposition (a section, even a hyperlink to an authoritative online source?).

c) Please read the Act before making vague claims about what options may and may not be available to consumers under the provisions therein.

a) He was likely making his commet based on his own experience. Believe it or not, normal people often do this ...... and it's OK to do so.
b) It's great to have people as .. [sic] knowledgable [sic] as you on here that are so willing to force their opinion on us. Thanks!!
c) Nobody likes a lawyer!

Good day .. [sic] sir [sic] ..

robert.edgar
Mar 24, 2012, 06:52 AM
Lots of iPad 3 around today at the reseller stores in Hong Kong for anyone that wanted one.

More importantly (to me) the new Apple TV was also available, though the price was a rather steep USD250.

Unfortunately Apple won't sell AppleTV here via the official Apple store for some unknown reason so we have no choice but to go to local resellers, I am hoping in a few weeks the price will drop to a more reasonable level (say around USD150) then I will get it.

Athonline
Mar 24, 2012, 07:19 AM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

Actually based on the E.U law, which completes gaps in the UK law or overlaps it in some occasions, you get 30 days to return ANY electronic product and the store HAS to offer you a full refund or replacement, as long as it is in a resellable condition.
And you get 2 years warranty in all your electronic products btw in UK, whenever the stores says so or not. :-)

It is amazing how some UK stores miss-advertise some stuff, like the payable extra warranty or return policy.

wikus
Mar 24, 2012, 07:42 AM
That's all the purchasers fault. Why should a seller be responsible for a mistake the buyer makes?

Really? So, you buy a gift for someone, turns out the person already has it and its the buyers fault?

Not everything in life is black and white. Theres always a gray area.

adamget
Mar 24, 2012, 08:24 AM
Actually based on the E.U law, which completes gaps in the UK law or overlaps it in some occasions, you get 30 days to return ANY electronic product and the store HAS to offer you a full refund or replacement, as long as it is in a resellable condition.
And you get 2 years warranty in all your electronic products btw in UK, whenever the stores says so or not. :-)

It is amazing how some UK stores miss-advertise some stuff, like the payable extra warranty or return policy.

I don't think this is quite right. This is from Which? I think the salient bit is about buying on-line.

"I've changed my mind
If you bought it online, and you're still within the cooling off period you should be able to return it for a full refund.
If you bought it in a shop, it might be trickier. Shops don't have to have a returns policy, but if they do have one they must stick to it. So check their policy and see what it says. You might be entitled to a replacement or a credit note.


Read more: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/returning-goods-your-legal-rights/your-rights/#ixzz1q2Y8W7F2
Consumer Champions Which?
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial

Regarding the warranty business, the EU does confer more rights than UK law, and I believe it can be 5 years. I depends on how long the item can be expected to last.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/Yourconsumerrightswhenbuyinggoodsandservices/DG_194650

kiljoy616
Mar 24, 2012, 08:38 AM
It's a real shame that a restocking fee doesn't apply in this case.

Then it would affect us all. Nope its fine how Apple does it. The days of this happening are numbered as Apple gets better at releasing the tablets. As long as they have not been open I see no issues with them.

I like how Apple is able to handle stuff like this and move on. Good for them.:)

jackhdev
Mar 24, 2012, 09:10 AM
Is Apple allowed to force you to open the box before you can leave with it? The resell rate goes down a lot when you do that, and all Apple has to do is rewrap it when they get a return, but is there some rule against that? Just an idea...

jamesnajera
Mar 24, 2012, 09:32 AM
I have a friend that works at an Apple Store and he said that they were dealing with unscrupulous resellers who returned shrink wrapped "New iPads" that actually had iPad 2's inside. Crazy.

This is the type of crap that could bring back the restocking fees.

Fuzzy.Dunlop
Mar 24, 2012, 10:13 AM
Is there stock in the NYC stores then? Am flying out tomorrow for two days and want to pick up a 64gb wifi, would even get a 64gb 4g due to the price difference ($150 cheaper than the uk versions)

Macman45
Mar 24, 2012, 10:22 AM
Is Apple allowed to force you to open the box before you can leave with it? The resell rate goes down a lot when you do that, and all Apple has to do is rewrap it when they get a return, but is there some rule against that? Just an idea...

Of course not...you leave the store with your new purchase shrink wrapped...just the way my Apple stuff arrives via UPS.. I'm nt about to phone Apple and tell them there was nothing in the boxes....:D

Joking aside....serial numbers and online activation make that type of fraud nearly impossible...if you just want to look at a brick, then fine.

jdavtz
Mar 24, 2012, 11:02 AM
Wirelessly posted

There's a lot of confusion here with regards to UK Consumer Law, and that last Copy + Paste from the "Sale of Goods Act 1979" (as though nothing supercedes it) simply confounded the issue.

Any consumer has a statutory right anywhere in the UK (including "Distance-Selling" (Online)) to return any goods to a store during a 14-Day period following purchase providing the items are in an unused condition & upon production of a verifiable Proof Of Purchase (this can be a receipt, bank statement, or even simply an employee of the store witnessing the transaction).

This simply isn't correct.

shanmugam
Mar 24, 2012, 11:03 AM
Lots of iPad 3 around today at the reseller stores in Hong Kong for anyone that wanted one.

More importantly (to me) the new Apple TV was also available, though the price was a rather steep USD250.

Unfortunately Apple won't sell AppleTV here via the official Apple store for some unknown reason so we have no choice but to go to local resellers, I am hoping in a few weeks the price will drop to a more reasonable level (say around USD150) then I will get it.

I think - If your country does not have iTunes content then Apple does not sell the Apple TV in that country officially - btw i used to live in singapore way back in 2006.

mgsarch
Mar 24, 2012, 11:10 AM
It's a real shame that a restocking fee doesn't apply in this case.

Yeah, because restocking fees are awesome when returning a closed product that will simply be resold to another customer. :eek:

P.S. Apple stopped doing restocking fees over a year ago.

Heavysound
Mar 24, 2012, 11:15 AM
Wirelessly posted

There's a lot of confusion here with regards to UK Consumer Law, and that last Copy + Paste from the "Sale of Goods Act 1979" (as though nothing supercedes it) simply confounded the issue.

Any consumer has a statutory right anywhere in the UK (including "Distance-Selling" (Online)) to return any goods to a store during a 14-Day period following purchase providing the items are in an unused condition & upon production of a verifiable Proof Of Purchase (this can be a receipt, bank statement, or even simply an employee of the store witnessing the transaction). Many stores extend this beyond 30 Day as Store Policy, particularly over the Christmas period, so as to not dissuade Customers from purchasing items as gifts only to be unable to return the goods come January. Outside of the initial 14-Day period, it is left to the discretion of the manager as to whether to restock the goods. Until then, the Store has a legal obligation to refund.

The only exceptions to this are items that clearly cannot be resold due to hygiene reasons even where it appears the items haven't been used (eg. Earrings, Underwear etc.). Even in these instances, the store has a legal responsibility to explain these exemptions to you at the Point of Sale.

Qualifications? Six Years in retail (x5 as a Store Manager (Argos)) & a Law Conversion on my English Degree (+ LPC) from University of Exeter, specialising in Consumer Law.

I'm just curious as to where this statutory right is contained. If you could refer us to it, I'd be grateful. I don't pretend to be well-versed in consumer law, as something I haven't studied for the past two years, but from what I recall and from what I looked at last night, the SoGA is the primary source of consumer protection legislation. The main reason I ask for the authority to support your claim is so that I know the answer for myself and others can be assured that what they're reading is correct.

I apologise if anyone believes me to be too opinionated: I haven't actually asserted my own opinion anywhere; I've simply stated what I believe to be the applicable law regarding the return of goods in the UK.

Also, I only mentioned my studies/employment history in passing at the end of my post to explain my interest in the area of discussion. I have no intention to name either of the highly-reputable European Universities I've studied at, nor do I feel the need to reveal which of Britain's most respected brands I work for.

The Mercurian
Mar 24, 2012, 11:16 AM
Why are people complaining about these returns ?

The US apple online refurb store is going to be well stocked. Bargains for all.

Gooberton
Mar 24, 2012, 11:25 AM
Wirelessly posted

Glad I don't live there. Communists

Jim Campbell
Mar 24, 2012, 11:30 AM
I'm just curious as to where this statutory right is contained. If you could refer us to it, I'd be grateful.

Consumer Direct's website (which is basically Trading Standards) seems to fairly clearly state that the right of return on non-faulty goods exists only on distance sales and sales in the home:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/Yourconsumerrightswhenbuyinggoodsandservices/DG_182935

Cheers!

Jim

Gooberton
Mar 24, 2012, 11:45 AM
Wirelessly posted

Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

Naive, youthful narcissism at its finest. Yeah, I knew more than everyone else on the planet at your age as well. Most everyone does. Then the planet taught me some life lessons, as it does to all naive young narcissists. :rolleyes:

So true, so true. We've been young, They have never been old. IMO around the age 30-35 you start to gain a small amount of wisdom if your looking for it. Man age 12-25 I had NO CLUE. If you think you know something for sure that's prob a sign you know nothing about it

alhedges
Mar 24, 2012, 12:28 PM
You obviously don't understand economics.

When Apple has a "lack in supply of iPad", what we really mean is that there aren't enough iPads to meet demand... AT THAT PRICE. The bold part is crucial. In order to equalize supply and demand (and for Apple to maximize profits), sellers of products normally (throughout most of economic history) adjust the price. So in this case, the price should be higher until there is enough supply and then the price can be reduced to keep enough demand to eat the supply.

Congratulations. You understood the first day of high school economics.


But Apple doesn't adjust prices based on availability or use an auction system. Instead they launch with constrained supply, a fixed price, and the result is massive waiting periods and physical line-ups. The amount of time spent by people in line-ups is massive (and it has a time and therefore monetary-value).

No retailers use an auction system because customers hate it and because it massively increases transaction costs. (Transaction costs won't be covered until the third week of classes).

In addition, customers want transparency in pricing. A customer who will be happy to purchase an item for $500 won't even bother going to the store if the price is going to be $500-$1500.


The resellers are not doing anything evil or sleazy. They are not "gouging". The technical term is arbitrage. Apple doesn't adjust the price to match market conditions, which means Apple is actually under-selling the iPad during the first weeks with low supply. The resellers are noticing this arbitrage window which is basically money that Apple has left on the table and doing what Apple should have done and making the profit for the trouble. Their profit is the discrepancy between the market-price and the fixed retail price.

Yes, they are doing something sleazy, and what they are doing is gouging.

And it's pretty stupidly arrogant to tell the most valuable company in the world how they should be selling their products, particularly when you are doing it based on the first day (okay, maybe the first week) of HS economics.

Again - why don't other retailers sell products this way? Because they are too stupid?


Thanks to resellers, customers don't have to wait in line-ups. If you want it, you can have it on the spot - you just have to be willing to bid more than your fellow iPad addict. If you want it so badly you're willing to pay a few hundred bucks more, it can be arranged.

Well, you are leaving out transaction costs. It's easy to find an Apple store. It's harder to find a reseller, and much harder to find a reseller whom you know won't rip you off.

And I haven't seen any evidence that the presence of resellers means that people don't have to wait in lines. What I've seen (in previous years) is that genuine retail customers have to compete with resellers for products offered for consumers. Apple does have a program for resellers (see, e.g., BestBuy) - but the scalpers are ignoring it.

But the main point you are missing is that the fact that something can be *explained* by economics doesn't mean that it is *good*.

But more to the point, using an auction system would dramatically increase transaction costs, alienate customers, slow down the purchasing process, and basically cause Apple to sell far fewer products.



The fact that the resellers are returning the iPad means that Apple has done something right - they didn't move to an auctioning system - and frankly it would feel weird for them to do so - rather, they made sure they had adequate supply built-up this time.


Good for Apple. Good for the customer.

Of course they didn't move to an auctioning system. That would be tremendously stupid...as I think you do kind of know, theory or not.


The resellers will always find another arbitrage window to close. And that's good for the customer too.
There were recently some tornadoes in the midwest - maybe they can sell gas at $15/gallon to the victims. I'm sure they'll be happy to not have to wait in line.

FrankySavvy
Mar 24, 2012, 12:32 PM
A few days ago I witnessed this myself, when I bought my new iPad at the 5th Ave Store.

I thought there was something wrong with the iPad, there was about three dozen people lining up to return mass quantities of them.

I put two and two together, however and realized I had nothing to worry about.

Glad they have an embargo in place!

-Franky

2 Replies
Mar 24, 2012, 12:36 PM
Apple tries to offer a premium experience with their products. These exporters can't offer an Apple-style buying experience, so it's in Apple's best interest to reduce the opportunities for the resellers

I"m sorry, but buying an apple product isn't a premium experience.
I've been to dozens Apple stores and pretty much each and every has smelled of armpit (my job has me flying across the country regularly, so It's neither a couple of poorly managed stores nor a local or regional phenomenon).

And lately I've seen a trend for ALL employees to dress the same regardless of their job (retail vs technical support) so having to figure out which person is a 'genius' (since they don't all sit around the 'bar' seems to be more problematic.
Add to that the fact that a few stores I've been to have had only a couple employees with the POS (point of sale) sleeve on their mobiles, so with Apple's "No register" setup, finding which freak'in employee can check you out is like flashing back to playing Where's Waldo. (Annoying in the very least.)

camnchar
Mar 24, 2012, 01:42 PM
These are not typical Apple fans. Instead they are participants in a complex and curious trade driven by China’s demand for Apple’s fashionable gadgets — products that are made in China in the first place and exported, only to make the long trip back.
I think this may be applicable:

http://www.qcomics.net/images/nelson.jpg

sehnsucht77
Mar 24, 2012, 01:45 PM
Wirelessly posted

The China custom charge a higher import tax, as high as 130-140$. No surprise that they came to return. But surprised that those returners are young and pretty.

young and pretty? you can tell by the back of their heads from that picture? for all you know 'ol girl looks like Chairman Mao. rofl rofl

AirCav
Mar 24, 2012, 01:48 PM
"I am put down and treated like a normal teenager."

You act like a normal teenager, perhaps that is why you are treated as one?

batchtaster
Mar 24, 2012, 02:42 PM
Completely agree. I love how I know more about OS X than they'll ever know, but I can't have a job because I'm not 18.

Perhaps it's your sparkling personality. Technical knowledge is barely 1/4 of the job; the other 3/4 of the job is customer service, and you appear to be under-qualified in that regard (you know, as you grumble under your breath in front of a customer about how much smarter you are than them).

----------

You obviously don't understand economics.

I think you missed the Ethics module of that little course you did.

danielearwicker
Mar 24, 2012, 07:04 PM
Buying up the stock of an item from a store solely to try to scalp it to others for a ridiculous price is called "gouging" and "sleazy" not "being an entrepreneur." There's definitely something wrong with purposely trying to make sure legitimate customers have no access to an item they actually want, when these pigs had no interest in actually using the iPad in the first place.

No, there isn't, and this story is a perfect demonstration of why not.

If there is plenty of supply to match demand at the official asking price, then there is no role for scalpers - as demonstrated here.

But if the official price is set too low, then there will be more demand than supply (those are really just different ways of saying the same thing: put the price up and the demand will lessen).

This is where scalpers play a role: they correct the price. If it was set too low based on the available supply, the scalpers set the price at the highest level that will still enable them to resell all their stock.

The only people who can complain about this are the original producers - but they only have themselves to blame for not setting their own price high enough.

lostngone
Mar 24, 2012, 09:51 PM
The article says there were some people returning up to 30 iPad?!?
I would say fine, you want to return your iPad be my guest. Apple just needs a policy that states you can only return X items per store per day.


If these people want their money back make THEM work for it and not waste Apple's time.

chairguru22
Mar 24, 2012, 10:07 PM
Wirelessly posted

If I was the manager I would refuse to refund them just for the lulz!

In the UK you don't have to refund something if there is nothing wrong with it. Many stores have a 14 day return policy. But that's all it is, a policy. Managers can and sometimes will overrule it.

UK apple stores? I find that having a strict return policy to be poor customer service. You see a lot of stores these days have very lax or liberal policies. Apple, Costco, Kohl's, JCP, you can practically return anything. At Costco you can use a couch for 3 years and return it, no joke. Do people abuse that policy? sure. But that's why people like shopping there for all of their stuff.

In this case, it's not like Apple is losing out on any money. They can just take those iPads and put them back on the shelves. Why should Apple care if someone wants to return them?

lostngone
Mar 24, 2012, 10:11 PM
Okay this one is a little over the top but bear(or bare if you're into that) with me.

What does Apple do with these "unopened" units? What process does Apple follow when they re-sell unopened devices as refurbished?

Think about it, even if Apple unboxes these units and reloads/re-flashes them maybe someone has figured out a way to load malicious code that escapes the erase/reload(in the baseband for example)? I doubt this is the case in this example because if the Chinese government wanted to load malicious code into iPads to spy on people they would just payoff someone in the factory in China to do it.

vartanarsen
Mar 24, 2012, 11:15 PM
I have a friend that works at an Apple Store and he said that they were dealing with unscrupulous resellers who returned shrink wrapped "New iPads" that actually had iPad 2's inside. Crazy.

Crazy.... I Had to return mine for a legitimate reason.....and the genius never opened up my box....i cold have had my iPad2 in there as he didnt even open. He box

AppleHater
Mar 24, 2012, 11:48 PM
Peoples from the land of fake eggs never stop amaze us. If curious google fake eggs china.

philipma1957
Mar 25, 2012, 12:48 AM
Lets see apple's pile of cash is 98 billion

and All I hear on this thread is efffff the resellers.

How many people on this thread purchased an iPad2 Last year from a reseller. If you did please show a receipt for it.


By the way I sell on ebay a lot and I buy a lot on ebay. I also post test after test on this site and other sites. I could not to this without my ebay sales financing all the gear I buy to test.
I would really like to see some proof from someone that belong to this site getting gouged by those iPad resellers.

Lets see how many minus points I get for this POST!

lostngone
Mar 25, 2012, 01:06 AM
Lets see apple's pile of cash is 98 billion

and All I hear on this thread is efffff the resellers.

How many people on this thread purchased an iPad2 Last year from a reseller. If you did please show a receipt for it.


By the way I sell on ebay a lot and I buy a lot on ebay. I also post test after test on this site and other sites. I could not to this without my ebay sales financing all the gear I buy to test.
I would really like to see some proof from someone that belong to this site getting gouged by those iPad resellers.

Lets see how many minus points I get for this POST!

This is gray market sales, unless you are an authorized re-seller Apple can refuse to warranty/service and support these devices if they wanted.
We are NOT talking about personal sales(or reselling) here we are talking about someone buying a reselling 20-30 iPads as a business and then returning them when they can't make a profit. I don't really care that they are doing this I am just upset they are wasting Apple's(and mine) time doing it and creating artificial shortages for people that really want them.

righteye
Mar 25, 2012, 03:59 AM
Wirelessly posted

The China custom charge a higher import tax, as high as 130-140$. No surprise that they came to return. But surprised that those returners are young and pretty.

They are probably just mules with with some organised and wealthy "backers"

Ian1982
Mar 25, 2012, 05:06 AM
Why do they have the policy in place then? Is there a fine print saying that they have the right to refuse to return the money back to the customer if there is nothing wrong with the product? I've never had a problem like this in Ireland (The Republic) but then again I've never done what these chinese resellers are doing.

For clarification:
Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, a consumer may be entitled to a refund, replacement, repair and/or compensation where goods are faulty or not as described. In other cases, for example, where the consumer has bought an item of clothing in the wrong size, or they have changed their mind, or an item is an unwanted gift, there is normally no automatic right to return goods.

There are a few exceptions to this rule, including goods sold by mail order or over the Internet, and some goods sold to a consumer during a visit to their home. An acceptable returns policy would read:

‘Returns Policy. If you change your mind about your purchase, please return the unused goods to us with the original till receipt within 14 days, and we will offer you an exchange or a credit note. This does not affect your legal rights, including your right to claim a refund, replacement, repair and/or compensation where the goods are faulty or misdescribed.'

Cited from the trading standards official website... hope it explains.

bruinsrme
Mar 25, 2012, 05:14 AM
Anyone know how much a company has to absord when requesting a chargeback from a credit card company?

markbyrn
Mar 25, 2012, 06:16 AM
I thought Apple had a policy of only selling two iPads per customers and these 'resellers' obviously bypassed it. They should only be allowed to return two at a time but this phenomena is in line with other stories that indicate the iPad is not selling well in China.

I'd also be curious if this large volume of returns are being subtracted from the 'record' sales numbers that Apple was breathlessly touting.

WhoAmI2
Mar 25, 2012, 06:40 AM
Listen man, I don't have an ego (and believe me, I have definitely met people who have egos!). I thought the guy insulted me and I stood up for myself. He has since apologized and seems like a great guy. I'm up for any challenge spreading technology to those interested in it, and I can make technology seem cool and interesting, which is probably why I'm not considered a weirdo. I just got my grandpa set up on a laptop and taught an elderly lady at my school how to use an iPhone 4S. She loves Siri! I would rather interact with other people than sit in a dark room typing all day, as a teenager.

If you're going to sit here and call, I guess you would think a "stupid teenager" a "class A stuck up asshat", then you clearly have your own issues that need to be worked out.

It's not what you're saying it's how you're saying it. My poo didn't stink when I was 16 either, I understand the tood but when several older, wiser members tell you you're acting like a, well asshat maybe you should just take their word for it and tone it down a bit. Just a thought.

I was going to pick up a few and re-sell but got hung up in the process. Bought 3. keeping one, giving one to mom and will probably take the last one back if I can't sell/swap it for more $ than I paid. I guess I can't bitch about "scalping" because I typically make a TON on new releases. I bought 3 iPhone 4's and after buying all the phones, pay-pal, ebay and shipping fees I cleared $650 and paid for my 32g iPhone 4. I say if you have the ability why not make a buck. Any other person has the same opportunity to buy the device as I do. It's not my fault they couldn't get one before I got my 3. If someone wants to pay me $950 for one i4 and $975 for another, who am I to argue?

ozziegn
Mar 25, 2012, 07:30 AM
I don't see what's the big fuss over people returning these iPads.

I mean, as long as the units are unopened then what's the big deal?

retailers need to refund their money and get over it.

jlc1978
Mar 25, 2012, 07:45 AM
Good luck trying that crap in the states. If it is your policy when you sell it then I bought it under the assumption that I could return it. The policy does not have any stipulations on it. That is not my fault, it is Apples. Why they don't have a limit on the number you can buy, I don't know. 30 seems a bit excessive.

Actually, Apple expressly has a clause dealing with purchases for resale:
Consumers Only

The Apple Store sells and ships products to end-user customers only. You may not purchase products at the Apple Store for resale, and we reserve the right to refuse or cancel your order if we suspect you are doing so. And we’re pretty good at figuring that out . . .

Could they use that to refuse returns? Not sure, but it would seem that the purchaser violated the terms of the agreement. My guess is they simply view it as a cost of doing business and move the returns out as refurbs; the numbers are probably sufficiently small that they simply aren't worth worrying about.


If they wanted to be strict about it, they might want to ensure the person doing the return was the original buyer - such as match credit card info with an ID and or require the original credit card - and if it didn't match or they don't have the card, refuse the return. Of course, for cash purchases, they could get an extra 10 days float:

For returns to an Apple Retail Store for cash, cash equivalent, and check transactions over $250, Apple will mail a refund check to you within 10 business days.

AnthonyHarris
Mar 25, 2012, 07:57 AM
Wirelessly posted

If you try to return a USED product within 14 days they can and will refuse a cash refund, although they usually offer store credits. I had this problem with Phones 4 U. I think the case is somewhat different when something is unused and still in its packaging.

jlc1978
Mar 25, 2012, 08:14 AM
As far as I'm concerned what apple has done this time is excellent. Now if we could just sort out concert tickets the same way.

As an aside (and threadjack) concert promoters have no incentive to stop scalpers - they help ensure a sellout and those contribute directly to the profitability of the promoter; what pisses promoters off is that they can't get the higher prices scalpers charge. Rest assured if they could ensure a sellout and get scalper prices they would. In essence, the scalpers assume all the risk of low demand, while the promoters get a fixed revenue and known profit margin; for them the money's really in the ancillary sales at the concert anyway.

Of course, it is fun to get into events at a cut rate when demand is low - the scalper has a commodity whose value diminishes with each passing second; and often there are enough around that you can simply make a lowball offer until one accepts. I do it in joking kind of ways as to make it a pleasant experience and get the scalper in a mood to do business, but point out that since they still have a bunch of tickets and start time is less than 30 minutes away, do they want to eat them or lessen their loss by taking some money?

----------

Lots of iPad 3 around today at the reseller stores in Hong Kong for anyone that wanted one.

More importantly (to me) the new Apple TV was also available, though the price was a rather steep USD250.

Unfortunately Apple won't sell AppleTV here via the official Apple store for some unknown reason so we have no choice but to go to local resellers, I am hoping in a few weeks the price will drop to a more reasonable level (say around USD150) then I will get it.

Why not simply mail order it from an authorized reseller?

----------

Wirelessly posted



So true, so true. We've been young, They have never been old. IMO around the age 30-35 you start to gain a small amount of wisdom if your looking for it. Man age 12-25 I had NO CLUE. If you think you know something for sure that's prob a sign you know nothing about it

When I was 5, my parents were brilliant,
When I was 10, they were smart,
When I was 13, they were getting dumb,
When I was 17, they were the dumbest people I knew,
When I was 21, they were pretty smart after all,
When I was 30, they were brilliant.

it's amazing how life's clue by four works wonders when it whacks you across the side of the head a few times...

----------

Congratulations. You understood the first day of high school economics.

Yes, they are doing something sleazy, and what they are doing is gouging.

And it's pretty stupidly arrogant to tell the most valuable company in the world how they should be selling their products, particularly when you are doing it based on the first day (okay, maybe the first week) of HS economics.

Let's talk Econ101 - arbitrage is a perfectly normal response to price differences; and acts to restore pricing to a normal level. Apple responds by increasing supply which drives the arbitrage advantage to zero; in other cases such as commodities the underlying price rises in response.

Gray market goods are a classic example of arbitrage at work - when currency or pricing differences makes for arbitrage opportunities someone will generally take advantage if the return is sufficient.

Nothing sleazy - simple undergraduate college economics.

crapbag8
Mar 25, 2012, 08:18 AM
Bonus thought... Am I the only one that can imagine smelling 'Chinese Air' released from a freshly unboxed product? The air is captured in the product when the cover is put on and wrapped in plastic back in the factory in China. I always imagine is smells like fried rice with a hint of fortune cookie. Maybe Apple could infuse cleaner air to make the unboxing a perfect experience.

WTF?? And btw, they don't actually have fortune cookies in China.

Kludge420
Mar 25, 2012, 08:51 AM
Apple can easily add a discretionary restocking fee of 15% and have an internal policy of only charging it to these kinds of dirtbags.

----------



Let's talk Econ101 - arbitrage is a perfectly normal response to price differences; and acts to restore pricing to a normal level.

Sounds like someone drank the flavor-aid. Arbitrage is nothing but a leech on the free markets. It adds nothing and its only purpose is to profit off a market that has self regulated to a reasonable price point.

This is in reality what happens:

Price is affordable so many people can afford to buy.
Rich people can afford to pay more in a different market.
Douche nozzle buys up stock causing an artificial shortage.
There is no stock available at the reasonable price so only rich people can afford to buy now in the first market.
Manufacturer sees zero increased profit from second market or even home market.
With higher prices in home market there is less demand so manufacturer makes less money while douche nozzle profits.
Manufacturer is forced to raise prices to make up for lost income.
Douche nozzle still leeches off home market share till even rich people refuse to buy.
Profits are now much more volatile due to massively decreased home market.
Manufacturer can't be sure of income due to volatility.
Manufacturer can't get loans for business due to instability in market.
Manufacturer goes out of business.

Arbitrage is a lie told to children to justify greed. And you believed it.

jlc1978
Mar 25, 2012, 12:32 PM
Sounds like someone drank the flavor-aid. Arbitrage is nothing but a leech on the free markets. It adds nothing and its only purpose is to profit off a market that has self regulated to a reasonable price point.

You clearly have no concept of what arbitrage is or the role it plays in a market.

As fo a reasonable price point, there is no such thing in a market - only supply and demand.

fruitycups
Mar 25, 2012, 12:49 PM
Wirelessly posted

Those scappers. They should put up a new rule regulating this

kas23
Mar 25, 2012, 01:40 PM
Can someone explain to me how the iPad 3 can be in such high demand and everyone is buying one when the shipping times are now nil and resellers are now dumping their extras?

Not trying to be a smartass, just curious. I know this could easily be explained by increased supply, but is there any objective evidence that supplies are much higher this time around?

OrangeSVTguy
Mar 25, 2012, 01:44 PM
They should have limited them to one return per transaction. Then back to the end of line :D

charlituna
Mar 25, 2012, 03:29 PM
The article says there were some people returning up to 30 iPad?!?
I would say fine, you want to return your iPad be my guest. Apple just needs a policy that states you can only return X items per store per day.



That just makes more work for Apple, not the 'buyers'. Because then multiple stores and workers have to deal with the people in terms of ringing up the transactions, line management etc.

The only 'work' they will make these people do is tell them that unfortunately only transactions under X amount (say $250) can be refunded in cash and they will have to wait for a check to be sent by mail and no they can't split the refund amount to get that X in cash and the rest by check. The system will only do one kind of refund in a transaction. The only other choice they might offer is a gift card but the resellers aren't likely to go for that since they can't really mark those up and they can't cash them out in most states until they have used up all but like $10 of the value (if they can do it then even)

----------

This is gray market sales, unless you are an authorized re-seller Apple can refuse to warranty/service and support these devices if they wanted.


Which is why these resellers use the Apple Store as their source. That sale puts the unit into the warranty system. And that warranty transfers if the unit changes owners. Same as if I bought it from the Apple Store here in LA and gave it to you as a gift.

it is cases like when TJ Maxx got a pile of iPads that were believed to have been bought off a reseller that ordered them and couldn't sell them that have warranty concerns. Those units were possibly never 'sold' until TJ Maxx did it and thus weren't in the system. Which is why Steve, Tim etc were quick to point out that TJ Maxx isn't authorized to sell iPads and thus there's no warranty (or a reduced one if they did actually buy them end user style to get them into the system)

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I don't see what's the big fuss over people returning these iPads.

Nothing. Other than cheering the fact that scalpers that would have jacked up the price to as much as 3 times the official one got pwned by Apple's quick rollout.

Apple is returning them no issues.

----------



The Apple Store sells and ships products to end-user customers only. You may not purchase products at the Apple Store for resale, and we reserve the right to refuse or cancel your order if we suspect you are doing so. And we’re pretty good at figuring that out . . .[/i]

Could they use that to refuse returns?

Nope. Once they made the sale they made it. That policy would only allow them to refuse to make the original sale.

----------

Apple can easily add a discretionary restocking fee of 15% and have an internal policy of only charging it to these kinds of dirtbags.

And get sued for unfair business practices and in this case, racial profiling since it would only be charged to asians

----------

They should have limited them to one return per transaction. Then back to the end of line :D

Great. That keeps them in the store longer and makes more work dealing with them.

superman23
Mar 25, 2012, 03:53 PM
Anyone know how much a company has to absord when requesting a chargeback from a credit card company?


100% + a fee such as $10-20

also there are a lot of jerks these days who think that chargebacks are paid for by the credit card company and is a legitimate way to get an easy refund on something

Kludge420
Mar 25, 2012, 05:07 PM
You clearly have no concept of what arbitrage is or the role it plays in a market.

As fo a reasonable price point, there is no such thing in a market - only supply and demand.

You clearly have no concept of sustainable economics. Business schools are full of people like you who think raping economies for profit is a perfectly acceptable business practice without regard for the decimation of said economies.

You really need to do some real research and learn some basic real world economics away from people who's only interest is in self profit. Macro economics isn't about how to run a business, it's about how to run a world. Too many people like you think they're one in the same.

----------


And get sued for unfair business practices and in this case, racial profiling since it would only be charged to asians[COLOR="#808080"]

True and good point. Bad idea on my part.

cdmoore74
Mar 25, 2012, 05:10 PM
Can someone explain to me how the iPad 3 can be in such high demand and everyone is buying one when the shipping times are now nil and resellers are now dumping their extras?

Not trying to be a smartass, just curious. I know this could easily be explained by increased supply, but is there any objective evidence that supplies are much higher this time around?

The first clue was when pre-orders started. 16 out of the 18 models were still in stock 2 full days on Apple's website. Then all of a sudden every last model went on backorder. How can every single model just go out of stock at the same time?
Second clue was when Walmart started their sale at 12am. There were 5 at my walmart and they still had 2 units at 11:50pm.
Third clue was at Sams club and Bestbuy. Both stores had tons of units in stock on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Fourth sign is massive returns from scalpers.

I know for a fact iPad 3 will not beat iPad 2 sales. If Apple only used a faster next gen dual core or a quad core I would not be posting this. When people don't "see" speed differences over the previous product why bother upgrading. Plus it takes longer to charge, heavier and thicker. People don't need LTE that chews through data plans or cameras on 10 inch tablets.

Apple is using a Jedi mind trick on their website. People will see the backorder which gives the impression of high demand. Then when the customer see's them in stock at the stores Apple is betting that you will buy it. Apple could still have thousands of these sitting in their warehouses in the US but it looks worst when product is still sitting on store shelves. Smoke and mirrors.

firewood
Mar 25, 2012, 05:47 PM
When people don't "see" speed differences over the previous product why bother upgrading.

Most iPad buyers are not upgrading from the previous model.

Most iPad buyers don't care about "speed" differences or the lack there-of at all, as long as it runs their most common apps fairly smoothly.

Most auto companies stopped selling their most popular models based on "speed differences" long long ago, instead advertising based on safety, comfort, mileage, handling, and curb appeal.

garylapointe
Mar 25, 2012, 05:52 PM
They could have a 5 item return limit per day.

something to still accept them but make it a pain to do.
Track based on Driver's License or ID like Best Buy and pharmacies who can only sell X amount of allergy stuff.

They originally tried to do something to do with purchases of the early iPads (or was it iPhones) they didn't take cash because they wanted to have charge cards and IDs to make sure people weren't buying them up. I think it just turned into a hassle for them...

Gary

cdmoore74
Mar 25, 2012, 07:18 PM
Most iPad buyers are not upgrading from the previous model.

Most iPad buyers don't care about "speed" differences or the lack there-of at all, as long as it runs their most common apps fairly smoothly.

Most auto companies stopped selling their most popular models based on "speed differences" long long ago, instead advertising based on safety, comfort, mileage, handling, and curb appeal.

Let me spin it in your words:

"Most iPad buyers don't care about "resolution" differences or the lack there-of at all, as long as it runs their most common apps fairly smoothly."

That's why ipad 2 users will not upgrade. The processor is no faster and the ipad 2 screen is not crap. Not only that but the ipad 3 takes almost 2 times longer to charge up because of the larger battery. The heat issue is no issue for me but it is for a lot of people especially ones with small kids. My personal feeling is that Apple was lazy this time around. Still number one with tablets but only because Google has fumbled out the gate.

jlc1978
Mar 25, 2012, 08:12 PM
Nope. Once they made the sale they made it. That policy would only allow them to refuse to make the original sale.

I wonder - they use an and, rather than saying "we will," so you could interpret as we can do A and we can do B; which doesn't imply we must do A and B.

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You clearly have no concept of sustainable economics. (ad hominem removed)

Actually I do. Arbitrage, amongst other things, helps make an economy work and be sustainable. Perhaps you'd prefer one where some central planner decides what can be sold and at what price, or if a company decides not to produce enough to meet demand no when else can bring in products to meet the unmet demand; but experience shows that isn't sustainable.

You really need to do some real research and learn some basic real world economics away from people who's only interest is in self profit. Macro economics isn't about how to run a business, it's about how to run a world. Too many people like you think they're one in the same.

They actually are - from the guy arbitraging commodity prices to the guy selling cigarettes on the treat by the smoke and making a few bucks on the packs he buys and splits up. Despite what you say, the profit motive is what drives real world economies.

firewood
Mar 25, 2012, 08:45 PM
That's why ipad 2 users will not upgrade.

You're right. That's why the vast percentage of the many many 3rd gen iPad customers are not previous iPad 2 owners. Apple is tapping a vast new market.

...but I upgraded anyway. The slightly better display is growing on me more than the slight increase in weight.

jman240
Mar 26, 2012, 09:06 AM
What are the chances of someone who buys one now getting one of these returns instead of "new" from factory? I personally wouldn't want to take the gamble that they were dropped, mishandled, etc because the reseller couldn't sell them.

Do these become refurbs instead or can they be sold as new?

xraydoc
Mar 26, 2012, 11:02 AM
It's interesting how the article specifically mentions Chinese resellers yet when someone in these forms notes how many Chinese nationals are waiting in line for iPads they get voted down as racist.

OrangeSVTguy
Mar 26, 2012, 07:55 PM
***
Great. That keeps them in the store longer and makes more work dealing with them.

That's fine, Apple employees are paid by the hour, scalpers are not.

----------

What are the chances of someone who buys one now getting one of these returns instead of "new" from factory? I personally wouldn't want to take the gamble that they were dropped, mishandled, etc because the reseller couldn't sell them.

Do these become refurbs instead or can they be sold as new?
They have to be opened and inspected. So they will then be sold as a refurb. They should be opened and checked before a refund is issued as I'm sure the idiots out there could have swapped an iPad 2 in there and resealed it :rolleyes:

nsayer
Mar 27, 2012, 11:43 AM
ummmmmmmmm, yes it does. If you sell me something and tell me I have 14 days to return it to you no questions asked and I try to return it to you and you say no, then you are doing exactly what your first paragraph says you cant. does not work like that.

Well, of course, if they make a 14 day return period part of the contract, then they have to honor it. But there's nothing in the law that requires them to do so. They could announce tomorrow that all sales at the Apple store for the new iPad are final and henceforth they will not take any returns at all. They would still be required to exchange or repair defective units (there are, in fact, retail durable goods warranty requirements or implied warranties in most states), but they're not under any legal obligation at all to accept returns.

Doc750
Mar 27, 2012, 11:58 AM
I returned mine this past weekend, they didn't inspect the box at all. I also have not received the credit back on my card yet (I do have the emailed return receipt).

Blorzoga
Mar 27, 2012, 09:31 PM
I learned something interesting today about all those Asian scalpers returning iPads. I noticed on launch morning while I was waiting in line that the "workers" that the scalpers hired to wait in line were all paying with Apple gift cards. Of course this is because Apple doesn't accept cash for iPads. Today while I was in the Apple store exchanging my AT&T for a Verizon, I saw a couple of fellows with shopping bags full of iPads, returning them. That's when it hit me...all those returns are going back on the gift cards. The gift cards can't be redeemed for cash, only store credit. The salesperson told me that months before the launch, there would be people coming in buying tens of thousands of dollars in Apple gift cards. So although the scalpers may get their store credit back, they can't get their cash back. I think Apple was incredibly shrewd in limiting sales to non cash. So all those iPads go back on the shelves but they keep the sales because of the gift cards.

Digitalclips
Apr 2, 2012, 08:01 AM
I learned something interesting today about all those Asian scalpers returning iPads. I noticed on launch morning while I was waiting in line that the "workers" that the scalpers hired to wait in line were all paying with Apple gift cards. Of course this is because Apple doesn't accept cash for iPads. Today while I was in the Apple store exchanging my AT&T for a Verizon, I saw a couple of fellows with shopping bags full of iPads, returning them. That's when it hit me...all those returns are going back on the gift cards. The gift cards can't be redeemed for cash, only store credit. The salesperson told me that months before the launch, there would be people coming in buying tens of thousands of dollars in Apple gift cards. So although the scalpers may get their store credit back, they can't get their cash back. I think Apple was incredibly shrewd in limiting sales to non cash. So all those iPads go back on the shelves but they keep the sales because of the gift cards.

I hope that is true. I'd like to see the scalpers trying to sell the gift cards for profit! :cool:

Delgadoren
Apr 3, 2012, 02:10 AM
The Chinese practice which import tax higher, reaching 130-140 $. No wonder they were to return. But surprisingly, these returnees are young and beautiful.

Kludge420
Apr 12, 2012, 05:44 PM
"Ad hominem removed"

You might want to look up what an ad hominem is because the act of disparaging someone's character is not an ad hominem. If I said you were wrong because of some negative quality you posses (or I claim you posses) then that would be an ad hominem;

You've demonstrated a serious lack of basic critical thinking skills so I would strongly suggest you educate yourself better before attempting to make what you might think are rational arguments.

Until then you're just spitting into the wind and anyone talking to you is doing the same.