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View Full Version : Does "Save as..." still make sense?




tkermit
Aug 3, 2012, 10:13 PM
I'm wondering whether the re-introduction of the "Save as…" command was really a good idea. While you might think it works the same way as it used to, in reality its behavior is quite different now, due to the fact that documents are being autosaved in the background. This is true even if you've enabled the option to "ask to keep changes when closing documents" – the option doesn't prevent the system from autosaving, instead all it does is present you with the option to revert the (autosaved) changes you've made to a document you're closing.

Here's how it used to work and how people who have been asking for the "Save as" feature to return (not me) might expect "Save as" to work now:


- Open Document.rtf
- make changes to Document => Document.rtf remains unchanged
- "Save as" Document 2.rtf => Document.rtf remains unchanged, Document is closed, window content is replaced with Document 2 containing all the changes made to Document which were saved to Document 2.rtf

Instead, this is how it works now:

- Open Document.rtf
- make changes to Document => Document.rtf is updated with the changes
- "Save as" Document 2.rtf => Document.rtf retains the changes, Document is closed, window content is replaced with Document 2 containing all the changes made to Document which were saved to Document 2.rtf

In other words, the changes you made to a document, which were, by virtue of the autosave system, also applied to the file on disk, aren't automatically reverted once you elect to save the document as a new file. It kind of makes sense actually, but might surprise users who were used to the old "Save as..." behavior?



76ShovelHead
Aug 3, 2012, 10:17 PM
I'm wondering whether the re-introduction of the "Save as…" command was really a good idea. While you might think it works the same way as it used to, in reality its behavior is quite different now, due to the fact that documents are being autosaved in the background. This is true even if you've enabled the option to "ask to keep changes when closing documents" – the option doesn't prevent the system from autosaving, instead all it does is present you with the option to revert the (autosaved) changes you've made to a document you're closing.

Here's how it used to work and how people who have been asking for the "Save as" feature to return (not me) might expect "Save as" to work now:


- Open Document.rtf
- make changes to Document => Document.rtf remains unchanged
- "Save as" Document 2.rtf => Document.rtf remains unchanged, Document is closed, window content is replaced with Document 2 containing all the changes made to Document which were saved to Document 2.rtf

Instead, this is how it works now:

- Open Document.rtf
- make changes to Document => Document.rtf is updated with the changes
- "Save as" Document 2.rtf => Document.rtf retains the changes, Document is closed, window content is replaced with Document 2 containing all the changes made to Document which were saved to Document 2.rtf

In other words, the changes you made to a document, which were, by virtue of the autosave system, also applied to the file on disk, aren't automatically reverted once you elect to save the document as a new file. It kind of makes sense actually, but might surprise users who were used to the old "Save as..." behavior?

And this is why we have versions :D

I understand, seems kinda pointless, I guess it's just one thing Microsoft got right in Windows 7.

tkermit
Aug 3, 2012, 10:25 PM
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the autosaving system is the problem here. It's just that the concept of "Save as..." as it existed before (which has its own problems) doesn't seem to work well within the constraints of this new system. It seems to make more sense now to duplicate a document and only then apply changes to it if you know that you'll want to save the contents to a different file and have the original remain unchanged.

WSR
Aug 3, 2012, 10:40 PM
It definitely means that with versions, if you want to make a different file with "Save As...", you have to remember to do "Save As..." before starting the changes.

Don't forget that besides changing filenames, "Save As..." also allows an easy way to change the location and filetype.

tkermit
Aug 3, 2012, 10:49 PM
It definitely means that with versions, if you want to make a different file with "Save As...", you have to remember to do "Save As..." before starting the changes.
That's exactly it.


Don't forget that besides changing filenames, "Save As..." also allows an easy way to change the location and filetype.
True. Although that functionality can usually be provided by an "Export" command. Of course, then you still have to go and close the file you're working on and open the other one.

GerritV
Aug 4, 2012, 01:12 AM
Long story short - IMHO all of the above sounds a lot more complicated and confusing as it used to. I like Autosave, but only if I'm given the choice to use it or not. The ML workflow is anything but intuitive to me.

matrix07
Aug 4, 2012, 06:09 AM
Long story short - IMHO all of the above sounds a lot more complicated and confusing as it used to. I like Autosave, but only if I'm given the choice to use it or not. The ML workflow is anything but intuitive to me.

It sounds complicated because you got used to the old way. Nothing is simpler than the new way introduced in Lion. For example, I created 3 new TextEdit documents then I noticed my disc running low so I logged out. Without saving, without naming file, nothing extra to do just logged out and when I logged in, lo and behold, 3 TextEdit documents still there for me.
If I'm done with it I just close it and save or not. If I want to save it to something else I just export it. But I don't have to save it for just in case anymore.

maflynn
Aug 4, 2012, 06:14 AM
I create new documents by using an existing document and while there are work arounds, its no way as seamless or easy then just saving as a new name.

A great operating system allows the user to get their work done efficiently without getting in the way. In this case OSX is getting in the way imo

MacDawg
Aug 4, 2012, 06:29 AM
It definitely means that with versions, if you want to make a different file with "Save As...", you have to remember to do "Save As..." before starting the changes.

Don't forget that besides changing filenames, "Save As..." also allows an easy way to change the location and filetype.

Pretty much how I have always done it :)

Regardless, if the new changes were made before you used "Save as..." and you have versions, you should be able to go back to the pre-changes

I try not to over think these things myself

colloc
Aug 4, 2012, 12:26 PM
I'm wondering whether the re-introduction of the "Save as…" command was really a good idea. While you might think it works the same way as it used to, in reality its behavior is quite different now, due to the fact that documents are being autosaved in the background. This is true even if you've enabled the option to "ask to keep changes when closing documents" – the option doesn't prevent the system from autosaving, instead all it does is present you with the option to revert the (autosaved) changes you've made to a document you're closing.

Here's how it used to work and how people who have been asking for the "Save as" feature to return (not me) might expect "Save as" to work now:


- Open Document.rtf
- make changes to Document => Document.rtf remains unchanged
- "Save as" Document 2.rtf => Document.rtf remains unchanged, Document is closed, window content is replaced with Document 2 containing all the changes made to Document which were saved to Document 2.rtf

Instead, this is how it works now:

- Open Document.rtf
- make changes to Document => Document.rtf is updated with the changes
- "Save as" Document 2.rtf => Document.rtf retains the changes, Document is closed, window content is replaced with Document 2 containing all the changes made to Document which were saved to Document 2.rtf

In other words, the changes you made to a document, which were, by virtue of the autosave system, also applied to the file on disk, aren't automatically reverted once you elect to save the document as a new file. It kind of makes sense actually, but might surprise users who were used to the old "Save as..." behavior?

I actually feel it's more intuitive that way! It's new, so I guess we need some time to get used to it though.

tkermit
Aug 4, 2012, 12:34 PM
I actually feel it's more intuitive that way! It's new, so I guess we need some time to get used to it though.

Yeah, maybe. I guess it's a matter of old dogs and new tricks… Also, I may have underestimated the usefulness of "Save as…" just for giving the open document a new name and location, before you even attempt to change it.

GerritV
Aug 4, 2012, 12:36 PM
It sounds complicated because you got used to the old way. Nothing is simpler than the new way introduced in Lion. For example, I created 3 new TextEdit documents then I noticed my disc running low so I logged out. Without saving, without naming file, nothing extra to do just logged out and when I logged in, lo and behold, 3 TextEdit documents still there for me.
If I'm done with it I just close it and save or not. If I want to save it to something else I just export it. But I don't have to save it for just in case anymore.

Hm... not convinced because of your rather unusual scenario. Mine would be: I open a document, start adding / changing stuff and want to save my changes as a new version. Oops, too late :(
My main app, Vectorworks, gives you the choice to use the Autosave - and that's all I'm asking for: a choice.
As of now, I totally fail to see any good in the ML workflow. Yes, I am an old dog.

chinhiphone
Aug 5, 2012, 09:19 PM
is it possible to get the old save as back? i actually use the old save as feature a lot!

how do i access past versions of documents?

Icy1007
Aug 5, 2012, 09:26 PM
is it possible to get the old save as back? i actually use the old save as feature a lot!

how do i access past versions of documents?

past versions are accessed through the document's title bar.

Use this to effectively get "old save" back:

[System Preferences] -> [General]

Ask to keep changes when closing documents:
Unsaved changes are saved automatically when you close documents. If you prefer to be asked if you want to save changes, select this checkbox.

----------

Hm... not convinced because of your rather unusual scenario. Mine would be: I open a document, start adding / changing stuff and want to save my changes as a new version. Oops, too late :(
My main app, Vectorworks, gives you the choice to use the Autosave - and that's all I'm asking for: a choice.
As of now, I totally fail to see any good in the ML workflow. Yes, I am an old dog.

[System Preferences] -> [General]

Ask to keep changes when closing documents:
Unsaved changes are saved automatically when you close documents. If you prefer to be asked if you want to save changes, select this checkbox.

Anonymouse106
Aug 5, 2012, 09:27 PM
I have a spreadsheet document and an AutoCAD drawing for each of my customer projects. When I create a revision, I do a save as... and increment the version number in the filename.

I make sure both spreadsheet and drawing versions match this way. The Lion "versions" feature offers no way to name the versions for matching to external documents. The new Save As... is better than the Duplicate workaround, but the old pre-Lion way made the most sense to me.

curtisinoc
Aug 5, 2012, 09:45 PM
past versions are accessed through the document's title bar.

Use this to effectively get "old save" back:

[System Preferences] -> [General]

Ask to keep changes when closing documents:
Unsaved changes are saved automatically when you close documents. If you prefer to be asked if you want to save changes, select this checkbox.

----------



[System Preferences] -> [General]

Ask to keep changes when closing documents:
Unsaved changes are saved automatically when you close documents. If you prefer to be asked if you want to save changes, select this checkbox.


Good tip, thanks . . learn something new everyday here. I like to be asked. Just changed my prefs

chinhiphone
Aug 5, 2012, 10:06 PM
past versions are accessed through the document's title bar.

Use this to effectively get "old save" back:

[System Preferences] -> [General]

Ask to keep changes when closing documents:
Unsaved changes are saved automatically when you close documents. If you prefer to be asked if you want to save changes, select this checkbox.[COLOR="#808080"]


this doesnt get back the old save as method as noted in green in the first post by tkermit

i prefer this old save as over versions is because if nobody didnt tell me how to access versions, i would never notice it being there. with that said, i am most likely going to forget the feature exist later down the road

matrix07
Aug 6, 2012, 12:36 AM
Hm... not convinced because of your rather unusual scenario. Mine would be: I open a document, start adding / changing stuff and want to save my changes as a new version. Oops, too late :(
My main app, Vectorworks, gives you the choice to use the Autosave - and that's all I'm asking for: a choice.
As of now, I totally fail to see any good in the ML workflow. Yes, I am an old dog.

Like I said, you just got used to the old way. If you pleased with your document but you want to experiment with it further, see if you would like it more, then you should duplicate the document before starting. The workflow you described (edited it, liked it, save as something new) is just backward.
Think about the benefit. You created a document you will work on it for a month. Now you don't even have to save & close (2 extra steps). Every day you open the app the document will be there for you. If you don't like what you did today (which is very rare)? Just revert back.
Or when you open the document you saved, if you are pleased with what you edited, just close it. No need to save it (1 extra step).
It's much easier but you just have to change.

A choice is good, I agree. But the way the OS is behaving should be the default one.

GerritV
Aug 6, 2012, 01:07 AM
Like I said, you just got used to the old way. If you pleased with your document but you want to experiment with it further, see if you would like it more, then you should duplicate the document before starting. The workflow you described (edited it, liked it, save as something new) is just backward.
Think about the benefit. You created a document you will work on it for a month. Now you don't even have to save & close (2 extra steps). Every day you open the app the document will be there for you. If you don't like what you did today (which is very rare)? Just revert back.
Or when you open the document you saved, if you are pleased with what you edited, just close it. No need to save it (1 extra step).
It's much easier but you just have to change.

Sometimes it feels like things are being changed for the sake of it, so us old geezers will feel stupid :D OK, I'll try to change my ways once more then.

Mr. Retrofire
Aug 6, 2012, 02:34 AM
It sounds complicated because you got used to the old way. Nothing is simpler than the new way introduced in Lion. For example, I created 3 new TextEdit documents then I noticed my disc running low so I logged out. Without saving, without naming file, nothing extra to do just logged out and when I logged in, lo and behold, 3 TextEdit documents still there for me.
TextEdit is a bad example, because TextEdit under Snow Leopard autosaved your documents, and uses another mechanism under Lion & ML to do the same. It is not new that TextEdit can restore previous, not saved documents.

matrix07
Aug 6, 2012, 04:19 AM
TextEdit is a bad example, because TextEdit under Snow Leopard autosaved your documents, and uses another mechanism under Lion & ML to do the same. It is not new that TextEdit can restore previous, not saved documents.

Oh, sorry. I didn't know that. I just come to Mac on Lion. :)

azpc
Aug 6, 2012, 10:02 PM
http://www.zdnet.com/mountain-lions-save-as-still-a-disaster-7000002179/

tkermit
Aug 7, 2012, 09:04 PM
Here's a very comprehensive description of the new behavior: The Very Model of a Modern Mountain Lion Document (http://tidbits.com/article/13187)