PDA

View Full Version : Apple PDA MUST - List (no trickling of features)


gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 05:00 PM
Dear Apple Inc. ,

WE NEED TO GATHER ALL TYPES OF DATA IN THE FIELD, AS
EASILY AS POSSIBLE.

WE MUST ACCESS AND SHARE IT JUST AS EASILY.

NEED :

replaceable/rechargeable-in-cradle batt's

Hi-def 16 X 9 screen

min. 640 X 480 JPEG full VGA and 160 X 120 bitmap and THUMBS in 65,000 colors
like the Handspring EyeModule 2 has ( with equal or better sw to access instantly
as this module does --- only better ... alpha sort of list mode)

the cool time-lapse feature with auto power on/off of the EyeModule2

flash lamp for the camera

document-photography capable lense to get snaps of docs in a hurry

macro/pano etc. lense adaptor

zoom view those docs

QT + sound capture right into SmartMedia 128 cards

Voice record into SM card with voice to text transfer on desktop app

MP3 & 4

LASER POINTER

Bluetooth

phone + KILLER desktop app

full printing via bluetooth

KILLER DATABASE = or > HanDBase

AWESOME & SIMPLE SECURITY 128 bit or >

fully protected screen & case

Apple DESIGNED beauty.

WannabeSQ
Nov 14, 2002, 05:37 PM
if I may add, i think an iPod Hard drive would be nice too, to play mp3s, record video and pictures, and whatnot. But then you have to weigh in the fact that it might hurt iPod sales.

A Cell phone would be nice too, or perhaps a docking port so you could get whatever module you wanted, either a camera, wireless or whatever.

edesignuk
Nov 14, 2002, 05:39 PM
:eek: Another PDA thread! :eek: Could it be the start of another PDA-related posting epidemic??? :rolleyes:

insidedanshead
Nov 14, 2002, 06:39 PM
I am so sick of the PDA rumors. Steve Jobs said apple WILL NOT venture into that market.. if steve says something isn't going to happen. it ISN"T going to happen. The PDA market is NOT something you want apple to get into... they will fail. Apple.. concentrate your efforst on powermachines.. and people.. no more PDA threads.. ugh

swahilibill
Nov 14, 2002, 07:05 PM
hey newbie,

steve also said that the possibility of super drive powerbooks would not come for a while or not at all, and look at wat happened!!! so how bout keeping an open mind and not acting like you know everything,okay? this is not a good start newb!!!









Originally posted by insidedanshead
I am so sick of the PDA rumors. Steve Jobs said apple WILL NOT venture into that market.. if steve says something isn't going to happen. it ISN"T going to happen. The PDA market is NOT something you want apple to get into... they will fail. Apple.. concentrate your efforst on powermachines.. and people.. no more PDA threads.. ugh

insidedanshead
Nov 14, 2002, 07:41 PM
I'm a newbie because I decided to join macrumors after years of reading the boards... to help people like you understand reality. I have probably been using a mac since you been sucking your thumb. If you want to get into newb calling names ask me a few questions.. and we'll see who the real newbie is...

http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/19461.html
"Jobs has said the market is limited for existing devices, and he may be waiting for next-generation wireless networks to roll out, offering Internet access and embedded technologies," Ro said. "If Apple does offer a PDA, they do not want to jump into a slumping market."

"Yankee Group analyst Sarah Kim agreed that now is not the best time for Apple to launch a PDA. Most Mac users already have a Palm PDA, she told Wireless NewsFactor, and it could be difficult to alter brand loyalty.

"To offer a new device, they would have to connect with consumers who are not using all that is available with PDAs today," she said. "People need to see the value beyond personal information management, which is available on the iPod."

Case and point the PDA market is already overly saturated by handheld devices.. the simple things you can do on a handheld you can do on a 99 dollar palm that you can sync with your mac.. go and check out how the pocket pc is doing.. if apple comes out with a pda solution it wont be a true pda at all.. it will be something along the lines of upgrading their iPod to have more pda aspects.. what i'm really interested in is an Apple iphone. good day to you .. you friendly mac user.

One More thing: >>powerbooks would not come for a while or not at all>>
never did steve say this. he was quoted as saying they might not come until the current enclosures would fit them.. NOT AT ALL.. was never mentioned.. so do you think we will never see DDR.. or PCI X.. or faster than 167Mhz buses.. i'm interested to know..

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 07:51 PM
Apple M U S T N O T abandon its loyal supporters to the WHIMS of other
manufacturers who trickle half-a-loaf SW and conduits and apps to Apple users
who must B E G them to let us into the 21 st Century. END OF DISCUSSION.

I am one of COUNTLESS teachers WORLD-WIDE who D E S P E R A T E L Y
NEED to perform the data gathering described in my post.

Juggling the District-Approved electronic gradebook, a distinct grade-reporting app - a Handspring Visor Prism sw issue - Palm Inc. Conduit glutteal-drag and countless other WINDOZE moronodons is N O T A C C E P T A B L E .

* * * *

How about evolving the iPod into a BLACK iVamp that will Bluetooth a Sony Clié
swivel-screen PDA to death ???

It would use the Clié to get ALL my DATA types, then use Vamp for access and sharing .

I am very close to giving Sony my $600 for their (nearly complete) Clié ....
I'd rather get the W H O L E A P P L E .

Apple CAN DO what the _ELL it sets its mind to do.

WE NEED THIS -- JUST DO IT !

Centris Fan
Nov 14, 2002, 08:35 PM
Hey, I would love for Apple to make a good PDA to get me into them, but I doubt it. Palm isn't really making too much money, and it looks more and more like Microsoft will sucessfully leverage their monopoly now that they are beginning to compete on price.

When PDAs merge more and more with Cell Phones, then see Apple enter the market, but I don't see it happening soon....

Centris Fan
Nov 14, 2002, 08:37 PM
yeah.. I was going to end with the fact that Steve Jobs isn't so stubborn on stuff he said before, thankfully....

Remember: "I guess this looks like the death of CRT."

Yet, almost a year later we still see eMacs and stale G3 iMacs...

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 09:02 PM
It seems to me that the MP3 player market was producing a lot of junk .

Then Apple came out with the iPod.

This was far from a half-_ssed device.

It was done well.

It is now the favorite of even the die-hard Windozers.

WHEN Apple delivers a HANDHELD like the one in my original post,

APPLE will

*sweep the floor*

with all the junkware now on the shelves for X-MAS.
(I exclude here the top Clié because it is almost COMPLETE and Apple pretty).

My recent trip to various comp stores was depressing --- few lookers &
ZERO buyers ( bitter demeanor all over the floor staff )

The only handheld being touched was that Clié. The staff didn't even know how to display large photos !

The HS Tungsten scared all with the flimsy sliding top and Clié price.

The rest (Palm) were non-starters.

Time for Apple to shine !

We NEED EXACTLY *ONE* COMPLETE DEVICE
to CARRY IN OUR POCKETS --- NO MORE.

WE WANT IT TO BE BRANDED " Apple" --- NO LESS.

Let us raise the Black Flag !

swahilibill
Nov 14, 2002, 09:40 PM
the fact that no one has backed you up with your bull **** response should give you angle on how ****ing wrong you are ,you pessimistic bitch! We need less people like you and more people that believe in Apple and them coming through to their customers. Many things have been said here that prove people like you wrong, and people like you disgrace the apple name by being so negative about possiblility and people like you...should be using windows and stay away from macs because all you do is give us a bad image!




Originally posted by insidedanshead
I'm a newbie because I decided to join macrumors after years of reading the boards... to help people like you understand reality. I have probably been using a mac since you been sucking your thumb. If you want to get into newb calling names ask me a few questions.. and we'll see who the real newbie is...

http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/19461.html
"Jobs has said the market is limited for existing devices, and he may be waiting for next-generation wireless networks to roll out, offering Internet access and embedded technologies," Ro said. "If Apple does offer a PDA, they do not want to jump into a slumping market."

"Yankee Group analyst Sarah Kim agreed that now is not the best time for Apple to launch a PDA. Most Mac users already have a Palm PDA, she told Wireless NewsFactor, and it could be difficult to alter brand loyalty.

"To offer a new device, they would have to connect with consumers who are not using all that is available with PDAs today," she said. "People need to see the value beyond personal information management, which is available on the iPod."

Case and point the PDA market is already overly saturated by handheld devices.. the simple things you can do on a handheld you can do on a 99 dollar palm that you can sync with your mac.. go and check out how the pocket pc is doing.. if apple comes out with a pda solution it wont be a true pda at all.. it will be something along the lines of upgrading their iPod to have more pda aspects.. what i'm really interested in is an Apple iphone. good day to you .. you friendly mac user.

One More thing: >>powerbooks would not come for a while or not at all>>
never did steve say this. he was quoted as saying they might not come until the current enclosures would fit them.. NOT AT ALL.. was never mentioned.. so do you think we will never see DDR.. or PCI X.. or faster than 167Mhz buses.. i'm interested to know..

cubist
Nov 14, 2002, 09:53 PM
... we are all well aware that the PDA threads have been done to death.

gooddog has a point, the development tools for the Palm/Visor platform are garbage, and the screen resolution (size, too) is too small for any significant data entry.

For the development tools, I was going to try ThinkDB. It is available at Office Depot. However, it looks like the client is PC-only.

Other than that, there's C. I like C, but it is a tad slow for developing things. I was hopeful there would be a Hypercard-like product, but years after the intro of the Palm, there still isn't.

If you don't mind learning a completely strange object-oriented language used nowhere else, you can program a PDA with a much bigger screen size than the Palm, with plenty of memory capacity and Ethernet capability. No digital camera or MP3 playing, though, but WDYK? It has an Apple logo on it! It's called the Newton.:cool:

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 10:02 PM
MORE THINGS ---

The laser pointer can have a slide-away mask that projects
a grid onto a document being photographed -- to center the
HANDHELD correctly prior to snapping the picture.

Slide it away and get a dot for pointing (or an Apple logo).
Or make it a screw-on fad with many masks available.

ALSO - a holster that straps to the forearm while working,
so we need only point or bend an elbow to use the handheld
as we move about the classroom or the stockroom or the
busy sales-floor or the hospital beds or the street traffic or
the restaurant dining room, ... GET IT ?

AND a motion sensor to trigger pics of a room where the Handheld
is placed , poised like a sentry --- emailing (bluetooth) the pics to anywhere...

AND a proximity sensor would trigger an alarm in my briefcase if anyone
tries to walk away with my handheld.

The iPod would hide silently nearby, downloading tons of DATA
of all TYPES ; making room in the Handheld for more.

I'd better stop before I launch the missiles!

insidedanshead
Nov 14, 2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by swahilibill
the fact that no one has backed you up with your bull **** response should give you angle on how ****ing wrong you are ,you pessimistic bitch! We need less people like you and more people that believe in Apple and them coming through to their customers. Many things have been said here that prove people like you wrong, and people like you disgrace the apple name by being so negative about possiblility and people like you...should be using windows and stay away from macs because all you do is give us a bad image!



You have a lot to learn. Apple is a company much like any other out there. They make money by making products that people want. There isn't enough demand out there for a PDA like that that is being suggested.. the market doesn't lie. Through purchases and refferals I have made apple more money than most. I love apple. I just don't have fairytale expectations out of them. I know they are a company and I think its our job to push them.. and to be real. the market shows we don't want pda's.. we want faster architecture in our machines.. to allow people like me.. who use the mac everyday to be able to do what we do quicker.

I designed an entire software interface for a classroom education system on my mac. I have developed numerous corporations identies on my mac. i now create advertisements globally for my company.. on my mac.. my entire office is pc heads. i deal with people that hate macs everyday.. yet im still doing it.. because i love them.. to me you sound like one of those people who only roots for the winning team.... but i have been with apple since I was able to type.. and i know how they run themselves.. like any company that has been to rock bottom they only cater to areas where they will make money.. and for this i commend them.. but don't expect things that are unreasonable.. if there is a pda boom yeah.. expect one from apple.. but sorry to tell you but the economy is down and the pda market is a big fat pile of saturated goo..

im done here. instead of wasting your time antagonizing a fellow mac user.. go spend your time trying to switch someone over..

RandomMacGuy
Nov 14, 2002, 10:25 PM
If Apple were to make a PDA, which I do not believe they are, and they were going to release it any time soon, they would be way past R&D.

In addition, Apple (to the best of my recollection) has not listened to consumer requests either through petition or forum.

Finally, Apple's mentality is one with which they treat the consumer as a client and only a client. They know what is best for us. Luckily, they are usually right ;)

While it is a nice thought and a PDA with these features would be nice, I don't see it happening.

This isn't intended as a flame and I hope it isn't flamebait, I just want to put some of my ideas on the board.

- RandomMacGuy

Timothy
Nov 14, 2002, 10:32 PM
Apple ignores the PDA market to it's own peril. Many of us have great need for a well designed, truly portable, and useable device. Apple already produced such a device in the Newton, and the PDA market has yet to catch up to the standard Apple set more than 5 years ago.

The PDA market sucks only because the toys being sold as PDA's are lousy. A well-made device would quickly fill the vacuum that has emerged.

As it stands now, Apple has left it's user base to fend for themselves. Palms are not now, nor ever have been Apple-friendly. And, the Palm OS is nowhere near powerful enough to provide the usability that is needed in the PDA market.

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 10:52 PM
Maybe people don't want a pda BECAUSE what is out there is flimsy, limited,
complicated, buggy, EXPENSIVE, and FEATURE STINGY -- with an eye to the trendy
social butterfly who can hardly sneak up on a leaf.

Market them to the folks who have hectic jobs like mine.

My Visor Prism with EyeModule2 is the envy of all in my school - teachers, deans, students...and it was discontinued by Handspring to push the Treo crap ???

Got my Prism brand new for $97 at Costco.

The Treo's literally creak in your hand as you hold them --- that's flimsy !

And I am supposed to pay $400 a pop as they trickle one new feature at a time, each
couple of months ?

The top Clié - by contrast - is solid, elegant, very multi-media, heftier, SUPERIOR.

I'd love to see a market curve - by brand / model - to see if people want a PDA or not.

I suspect that Clié doesn't suffer as much . And if it weren't in a deserted playfield,
competition might just drag the price down to where more would buy it.
There is HOPE!

Somebody
Nov 14, 2002, 10:59 PM
The PDA that gooddog describes sounds like a disaster -- if not flat-out impossible for *anybody* to build, right now. I count loads of major functions: Basic PIM stuff, laser pointer, digital camera, digital music player, mobile phone, audio recorder, video recorder, motion and proximity sensors, bluetooth, smartmedia. It's unlikely that you're going to pack all that functionality into a pocket size package. Regardless of size, it's going to be terribly expensive, and will do a crappy job at each of its major functions (particularly the camera/video stuff), compared to what a more dedicated piece of hardware for any given function could do.

You also get into UI issues: You can safely pack a lot of varied functionality into a computer, because computers have fairly high-bandwidth UIs (i.e. big screens, full-size keyboards, and mice). A small device has a much lower bandwidth UI, and navigating through a large set of functions is painful. I'd rather just grab my digicam and turn it on and know it's ready to take pictures, than have to navigate through a menu or something to put my hydra-PDA into camera mode.

Anybody remember the Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car (named 'The Homer') for his wealthy long-lost brother? Remember how it turns out to be a mess because it tried to serve too many different needs? This is 'The Homer' of PDAs.

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 11:18 PM
Somebody !

What do you mean ?

Most of these features ALREADY exist happily in the Clié and the EyeModule2 .

And the others are stand-alone off-the-shelf and teeny little things, like the pointer

which is the size of a pencil eraser and costs $8.00 !

The motion sensor feature exists in pen cameras.

This is not your Dad's combo TV/Radio/Record player on wheels.

It is a quick-draw , get-it-done data gathering tool for people , like teachers,
who (studies have shown) are as busy as air traffic controllers.

The same goes for waiters, nurses, clerks, cops, ....

We don't have time enough nor eyes enough to be pulling out cameras,
recorders, scanners, phones, etc. and watch that they don't get "jacked"
by our lovely little angels.

I simply can't buy your objections in light of the facts extant.

Forget Homer --- he's a toon !

I deal with teens.

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 11:25 PM
Shut your filthy mouth you ....

oh, wait that was me ....

never mind.

gooddog
Nov 14, 2002, 11:46 PM
Where are you ?

Ah, yes , now then ...

Somebody,

Don't think that I ask the camera to replace a dedicated, megapixel device
that is geared for aesthetic prints.
Like I said --- DATA GATHERING . I just need a clear pic of a face or a
document that is shoved at me for my signature, in the middle of a lesson, by admininistrators who don't care about my tense and BUSY environment.

The voice-corder (as in the Clié) need only be clear, not melodic.

The "social butterfly" market may want your impossible device for frivolities.

But I need my proposed tool for work.

I find the 480 X 640 JPEG's from my EyeModule2 to be far more than adequate
for these purposes. Only I need two more sw apps to get a zoom of documents:
AcidImage and EyeSplit to separate pics..Apple could simplify that - easily.

Check out the Clié -- you will be surprised at all the stuff it does...

...most, in fact, of what ask here !
But it's 16 X 9 hi-def screen is still only in portrait mode !
...ALMOST complete...

Somebody
Nov 15, 2002, 12:33 AM
I'm looking at the top-of-the-line Clie (specifically, the PEG-NR70V, at http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/micros/clie/models/70V.html), now, and having a hard time seeing how it would meet the need you describe. The camera it includes only has 100,000 effective pixels (i.e. 0.1 megapixel, or images about 360x270). This resolution seems far too low to effectively capture the text of a document of any size; you could only capture a small chunk of 10pt text with an image that size, a fraction of the text that you might find on an 8.5x11 piece of paper. Sure you could take multiple photos and stitch them together later when you're at the computer, but that sounds terribly tedious to me.

Also, pixel resolution doesn't tell the whole story. You also need a lens system that can effectively resolve a very fine level of detail; It's extremely difficult to make such a lens that will be an appropriate size for a pocket device that will also have the resolving power you need for document capture. So it's not just a matter of cramming a higher-resolution CCD into the thing.

Nipsy
Nov 15, 2002, 01:30 AM
I built it just for you:
http://homepage.mac.com/chrismenke/images/pda.jpg

On a more serious note if Apple does a device, it won't have a laser pointer, a camera, or a massive screen. These are niche items, clumsy add ons, or poor substitutes for other devices.

They are far more likely to build out the iPod to include phone and pda funtionality, in a similarly sized device (this is one device my golden pocket clutter killing dream).

The iPod has a DSP, a hard drive, contact and calendar features, an OS, audio out, and a damn good battery. To become a PDA, it needs an input mechanism. To become a phone, it needs a mic and an antenna (and some telephony software).

So, add a mic, and antenna (headphone cable), and a pen sensitve screen, and you've got the iPDAPhonePod. Not likely in this market, but not impossible in the future.

It may happen yet, but it will be a while.

Tiauguinho
Nov 15, 2002, 06:50 AM
Damn, I never saw so many flame wars! You guys are getting overly excited with everything that is posted here. This are discussions boards, so we discuss what we think. Take it easy guys...

Nipsy... can you build one those for me too??? How are you going to call it? i*********offeatures??? LOL :) J/k!! :P

gandalf55
Nov 15, 2002, 07:18 AM
i always find these pda threads interesting. really i do. i am considering buying a T68i for the Mac-cellphone Bluetooth thing. However i am waiting around a little bit to see if there are more substantiated rumors about apple & any type of phone. bluetooth is okay for a few things, and it would be neat to try with a cellphone and isync.

do i think apple will release an all-in-one device that combines a cellphone, ipod, & digital camera? probably not. they have no track record i know of with telephony. the cellphone/ipod thing would be more likely. if i want a digital camera, i'll just use the one i already have. i don't think apple could support people with digital cams having probs... they would need to hire a new customer support group for something like that i imagine. it would be a huge undertaking to support a combined device like that.

so i could drop the cash on the T68i right now, but i'm gonna wait. keep the feature requests and ideas coming... creative thinking is what apple fans are all about. keep thinking different... i won't flame you down for pouring your energies out on these boards!

brainless
Nov 15, 2002, 07:38 AM
I agree with all those people crying for Apple Subnotebook or PDA. I need one too !
Hope Apple learned enough from the success of iPod and will reenter the arena. My favorite will be more of subnotebook than PDA. Something like OQO (www.oqo.com), big screen, no keyboard but bluetooth and low consumption PowerPC (or Crusoe) running MacOS X int the form factor similar to iPod. Can be turn into workstation at home by plugging in monitor and keyboard, or used on the move with bluetooth keyboard and phone.
Makes a lot of sense IMHO as such product is clearly lacking in Apple's portfolio. iBook is still too big.

mcrain
Nov 15, 2002, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Nipsy
I built it just for you:
http://homepage.mac.com/chrismenke/images/pda.jpg

On a more serious note if Apple does a device, it won't have a laser pointer, a camera, or a massive screen. These are niche items, clumsy add ons, or poor substitutes for other devices.

They are far more likely to build out the iPod to include phone and pda funtionality, in a similarly sized device (this is one device my golden pocket clutter killing dream).

The iPod has a DSP, a hard drive, contact and calendar features, an OS, audio out, and a damn good battery. To become a PDA, it needs an input mechanism. To become a phone, it needs a mic and an antenna (and some telephony software).

So, add a mic, and antenna (headphone cable), and a pen sensitve screen, and you've got the iPDAPhonePod. Not likely in this market, but not impossible in the future.

It may happen yet, but it will be a while.

Good lord, what is that thing on the top? It looks like an iBrator (another device Apple is as likely to make as the iPDA)

funkywhat2
Nov 15, 2002, 09:26 AM
It's a CueCat. They were given out by Radio Shack some time ago, used for merketing and stuff. If you use it to scan the right type of barcode, it would take you to a products web site.

Nipsy
Nov 15, 2002, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by crazy_will
It's a CueCat. They were given out by Radio Shack some time ago, used for merketing and stuff. If you use it to scan the right type of barcode, it would take you to a products web site.

I don't have a laser pointer, but I was hoping the red led from the CueCat would show up in the photo as a pretend 'laser pointer'.

mcrain
Nov 15, 2002, 04:03 PM
Cue Cat? I still say you didn't build an Apple PDA, you built the ultimate multifunction iBrator. (Pictures, mood music, black book pda, + phone)

gooddog
Nov 15, 2002, 04:12 PM
Nipsy !!!

You debil !!

LOL !

It's beautimous !!!!

But, how do I launch the missiles ?

:p

gooddog
Nov 15, 2002, 04:30 PM
Somebody,

The large pic I saw in the Clié at the store had more than enough detail to read an 8.5" X 11" page if one could zoom in.

At any rate - if a humble EyeModule2 can
handle 640X480 full VGA JPEG's with my Prism's 160X160 screen at $99,
don't you think Clié will better that in the next sw release ?
I don't have a Clié to play with a lot, so I can't be sure.

My EyeModule2 Springboard for my Visor Prism does a great job of the detail. -
It is only a software issue that , in spite of the great interface of the module,
it will not zoom and it's database clumps all pics as one file that requires EyeSplit for me to load them separately into AcidImage for a beautiful zoom
view. Apple could write these features more elegantly... easily.



Originally posted by Somebody
I'm looking at the top-of-the-line Clie (specifically, the PEG-NR70V, at http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/micros/clie/models/70V.html), now, and having a hard time seeing how it would meet the need you describe. The camera it includes only has 100,000 effective pixels (i.e. 0.1 megapixel, or images about 360x270). This resolution seems far too low to effectively capture the text of a document of any size; you could only capture a small chunk of 10pt text with an image that size, a fraction of the text that you might find on an 8.5x11 piece of paper. Sure you could take multiple photos and stitch them together later when you're at the computer, but that sounds terribly tedious to me.

Also, pixel resolution doesn't tell the whole story. You also need a lens system that can effectively resolve a very fine level of detail; It's extremely difficult to make such a lens that will be an appropriate size for a pocket device that will also have the resolving power you need for document capture. So it's not just a matter of cramming a higher-resolution CCD into the thing.

Nipsy
Nov 15, 2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by mcrain
Cue Cat? I still say you didn't build an Apple PDA, you built the ultimate multifunction iBrator. (Pictures, mood music, black book pda, + phone)

I ran it over to Jonathan Ive's office, and he cleaned up the design some, new image is above.

gooddog
Nov 15, 2002, 04:50 PM
Nipsy,

My laser pointer (even without a "crisp" power setting)
is incredibly helpful in teaching math to extremely hyper
and unruly kids. When I get my little raptors quiet and I need
to get the attention of one without rousing the others, I
just put a red dot on his desktop or book, and he looks up
without the others noticing. When I am busy with one
questioner, at my desk, and another kid is misaligning the
numerals of his division, at the board, I sweep a red, vertical
line over the numerals, and they always fix the alignment
instantly and without wordy confusion. I demo constant speed
vs. acceleration on the wall, use it in games, to break the
tension, etc. .... and, with a "crisp" setting, I could resolve discipline
issues in no time at all.

Couldn't you have built a little laser into
your Grand Agglomeration XL unit ??? I just saw an ad
for one in a magazine- $4.00 --- maybe an after-market stylus laser ?

MisterBlack
Nov 15, 2002, 05:33 PM
OK EVERYONE.

DON'T PANIC.

I DON'T WANT TO ALARM ANY ONE

but

i HAVE THE NEW APPLE PDA !

It is the size of a pack of cigarettes and has a wireless remote control in the form of glasses, controlled by the movement of your pupils. If you already have glasses you can trade in the Glasses Remote for the Glasses Addon Remote Clip for no extra charge.
It is an MP3 player, notepad, digital camera, digital phone, digital media center, internet terminal, handheld video game unit, GPS, encyclopedia, eBook, wacom tablet, surround sound audio reciever, vibrating back massager with a velcro attachment tube for Pringles potato chips.

It has a 4" color screen that has a paperlike FOLD OUT option to make it a 21" WIDESCREEN display with MILLIONS of COLORS.
It has a 1 tb hard drive, and bluetooth connectivity. Optional Loot Mode will download all the music of any Apple computer it is within 100 yards of.
It uses the earth's magnetic field to float 3', 4' or 5' (you can select which in software) off the ground while not in sleep mode.

It holds all your contacts, phone messages, calender info with important dates, appointments and recent conversations. It updates all of these things automatically in real time as you receive the information through your desktop, laptop or bluetooth enabled cell phone.

You can speak into it and it will translate your speech into audio in one of a dozen languages. It is also waterproof, for casual use in the shower or professional deep sea research/exploration applications.

It has high speed wireless internet access anywhere in the world that also allows me to use the cell phone and gps features. When the screen is folded out, you can use the unit to play games online. When the makers of Tribes heard about this device, they made a special Tribes port to run on Macs, and more specifically, this. I can file share and instant message people on it too.

The device also features support for hardware addons. I can hook up a CD burner to the firewire port and burn music directly off the MP3 player. Similarly, I can also hook up external hard drives to the unit and copy off data for backup. I can hook up my external DVD drive to it for movies. It also has multiple monitor support, as well as support for a traditional keyboard/mouse setup.

It has the ability to play both AM/FM and TV signals. HBO still costs extra.

Due to its revolutionary Lego-like construction, hardware upgrades have been coming out as often as software upgrades, and are free.

I'll post again once i've downloaded and replicated the new iSeat floating chair addon. I hear it uses the same electromagnetic wave differential as the original iFloat hover module, except it has the ability to hold 10-15 times the weight.

gooddog
Nov 15, 2002, 07:12 PM
Somebody,

Below is my first attempt to attach a pic in this site.

It is from my EyeModule2 resting flat on a book a few inches from an 8" X 11.5"
printout .

Set to 640 X 480 /brighten/ timer=5 sec.

Zoom in with your desktop.

My Visor can zoom with AcidImage after EyeSplit isolates the pic from the BurkeDB.

The docs I shoot have larger print + handwritting -- this is a worse-case challenge
and it is still legible enough for me to zoom-view and key the info into my db.

Also - Minox spy cameras had document lenses in the 1940's -- it is not a big deal.

I just know Sony (and Apple ! ) can improve on this.

scem0
Nov 15, 2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by insidedanshead
I am so sick of the PDA rumors. Steve Jobs said apple WILL NOT venture into that market.. if steve says something isn't going to happen. it ISN"T going to happen. The PDA market is NOT something you want apple to get into... they will fail. Apple.. concentrate your efforst on powermachines.. and people.. no more PDA threads.. ugh

gawd. I couldn't agree more. The PDA market is a niche market
that would be bad for apple to get into. I really hope apple doesn't
make a PDA because they are going to have to boost their other
prices to make up for the lack of sales on the PDAs.

ilikeiBook
Nov 15, 2002, 09:24 PM
http://www.spymac.com/gallery/data/500/10506ipadredo5.jpg :D

Cappy
Nov 15, 2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by insidedanshead
I am so sick of the PDA rumors. Steve Jobs said apple WILL NOT venture into that market.. if steve says something isn't going to happen. it ISN"T going to happen.

I have only a few things to say to this comment.

Steve was quoted as saying something to the effect that the lcd iMac was the death of the crt monitor. Not long after Apple released the eMac which as most people know has a crt monitor.

Also when Steve killed the Newton he publicly stated that Apple would release a new product to take it's place about a year later. They, of course, did not.

People's minds and decisions can change.

Cappy
Nov 15, 2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by insidedanshead
the market shows we don't want pda's

Keep in mind that the market only shows the data that was collected. It really depends on what is defined as a pda. I can see Apple releasing a device that they define as not a pda but the rest of the industry does.

When you get down to it though such a device at this point now is going to be more difficult than it would have been even a year ago. You've got Palms on the lowend in terms of cost. PocketPC's and Palms next with Sony Palms and PocketPC's above that. Next comes more PocketPC's and then the recent TabletPC. I'd say that things point to Apple focusing on challenging the TabletPC market which could carry some pda-like functions. The two biggest challenges here will be cost and battery life. I know Apple could handle getting the features attractive but those other two would be the real problem.

Originally posted by insidedanshead
im done here. instead of wasting your time antagonizing a fellow mac user.. go spend your time trying to switch someone over..

Let it go. Even new folks here have a right to express themselves here as long as they're not making personal insults and spamming threads. What's the big deal? Are you not going to send him a xmas card now? ;)

Somebody
Nov 16, 2002, 12:06 PM
gooddog:

Okay, I was wrong on the document capture front. The image you posted was hard to read, but certainly not illegible.

But I still think that a heavily multi-functioned PDA is going to be a nonstarter in the marketplace. Sure, it will be useful to you, and to some other people. But I honestly doubt that many people have such a broad array of needs as yours. For people who don't have such needs, something simpler, cheaper, and more elegant will will be more desirable. And for many who do have such needs, carrying multiple more specialized devices will be a better solution than an all-in-one. For someone who already carries a compact 2MP digital camera around, camera functionality in a PDA isn't much of a selling point.

Also, if the iPod is any indication of Apple's design philosophy for small mobile devices, that philosophy is pretty clearly "do one thing, and do it well". The iPod is a fantastic MP3 player, but that's all it really is. Yeah, it can be used as a portable HD, and it offers some simple PIM features, but these functions are just garnishes, and would have been left out if their inclusion had detracted in any way from the iPod's utility as an MP3 player (e.g. by requiring a change to the physical interface). So you probably shouldn't count on seeing your über-PDA from Apple.

gooddog
Nov 16, 2002, 05:03 PM
Somebody,

I think Handspring had the right idea --modularity--, even though they claim the modules didn't sell. The new,smaller modules will remedy the clunkiness.

Enough of the most wanted types would be available immediately.

The rest would come later... spread the risk out over time --
and make it all open to module developers.

If they are made available at good prices and in a timely fashion (unlike the much-delayed Springboards) we could use a multi-port attachment to install most of what I want.

A shell that adds 50% to the thickness of any elegant Apple PDA (and the Newton was huge) would easily accomodate several of today's tiny card-like modules along with a good power source. The ipod-like front would present the GUI in style.

Bluetooth might let the phone just stay in the briefcase anyway.

For that elegant, hyper-slim, overdressed crowd --- just disconnect the back shell, pop on a thin mother-of-pearl cover in it's place and go on to that theatre engagement.

gooddog
Nov 16, 2002, 05:04 PM
I agree to a point with

"one thing done well" .

But it is not the only market.

Work AND play is a more realistic model of our lives

- and we NEED relief at WORK now.

The rockin' dudes and vacationing flash poppers are well catered to.

Teachers, professors, waitresses, medical workers, police, clerks, salespersons,
all together represent a very large and well-paid market who are mostly forced, by
indolent administrators, to make do with Windoze trash if anything at all.

Some people may lead double lives --- take the unit to work 9-5, then get prettied up for the fancy date in the evening. I can see the ad campaign already -- can't you?
The straight-laced attorney or doctor running through a hectic day saved by the PDA walks out at day's end, removes some work apparel and transforms into a gorgeous cool person --
Near at hand, the animated PDA mirrors (her/his) stripN'switch moves and is smoothly slipped into a pocket by the model...

"All work and all play ... the Apple way"

jadam
Nov 16, 2002, 05:41 PM
why would you want to have SM?? SM sucks, its dead, the media is fragile, and its capacity is very small. CF is much better and SD kicks ass also. In fact, flash on a pda? dude, what are you smoking, this thread should go into the garbage section. Sorry but, this post comes from someone who knows nothing of PDAs and has never used a High Power PDA like a PocketPC or a Sony Clie/Palm Tungsten. Those are the features you want in a PDA not the ones you mention.

gooddog
Nov 16, 2002, 06:56 PM
You can rip the $50 128-MEG SM card from my cold, dead fingers and from my megapix Fujifilm and from my MemPlug module, and from a dozen other devices --- if the other stuff you mention are really better... fine with me.

I just like the price, size, and interchangeability of SM.

I know a little more than nothing about PDA's -- use mine every day -- 3years now.

I have been shown the "high-power" stuff you mentioned by their owners.

Speed performance is not DRAMATICALLY better. Neither is RAM. And in Handspring's
case, the features and the fit-N-finish went down.

Some (Clié and Tungsten) are nice, but just not dramatically better than the last
generation machines.

Progress in PDA's is WAY too s...l...o...w.

Compare the jump Apple made with the FP iMac with SuperDrive.

The more PDA's can do, the more often they come out of the pocket, the more kinds of buyers take notice, the more sales.

BUT -- ALL FUNCTIONS MUST BE ADVERTISED CONTINUALLY !

Ads showing MANY clever uses ...

jadam
Nov 16, 2002, 07:32 PM
FYI Handsprings SpringBoard technology is just a larger version of CF. CF can do much more then SpringBoards can because guess what? more people support CF. SM SUCKS, its incredibly fragile and SD is much smaller. CF is also much more durable and you can get 1gb CF cards for pretty cheap. Youve used a Visor for 4 years? that meaans nothing to me. Ive had 5 different PDAs, a bunch of palms and 2 pocketpcs. youve been shown the "high-power" stuff ehh?? hahaah, yeah, stuff, wow, thats very vague thank you very much. SPeed Performance is not DRAMATICALLY better??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? what are you smoking, show me your visor playing Quake II. how is progress in PDA's WAY TOO SLOW?!??! look at pocketpcs. They update every 3-4 months with tons and tons of new features. and your defintion of progress is some kind of start trek device. PocketPCs now use 400mhz Processors and they have video chipsets with 64mb RAM and 48mb ROM. They also are becoming incredibly thin with 14+ hour battery lifes(same with the new palms now BTW). they have everything you want in fact. You can easily get a CF card camera. MP3? that comes built in. Memory? get a dual slot pocketpc and put a 1gb CF card and 1gb SD card into it. Power? what do you want, is a 400mhz processor not enough?

tell me, how biug was the jump apple made with the FP iMac? it s not as big as YOU think(granted it was big)

The More PDA's can do? get a ****ing tablet PC, if you want a PDA that gives you 1 hour of battery life then fine, have yourself that imaginary PDA that you want. but you personally know nothing about PDAs dude. you idealize the situation too much.

BTW how old are you?

gooddog
Nov 16, 2002, 08:13 PM
The biggest problem I see with the stuff you mention is that it makes the users
play games on them too often and, that, in turn, causes them to become frenetic
hysterics who lose their PDA's.

Over time, the user loses all subtleness regarding his more Freudian apprehensions
which he associates with everyday, unrelated objects and begins to present his "wares", such as they are, at inappropriate times and in belligerent ways. Unable to compensate, he declines. Extensive use of stimulants and synthetic steroids accelerate the mental decline and social ineptitude of the advanced cases. Eventually, they wrap their SUV around a phone pole or beat themselves to death with a chair, in a moment of self doubt.

How can both

*pocket pee_C's have all I want*,

and

*all I want is impossible and sci-fi*

be true simultaneously ?

In any case (and don't go for the chair yet) we don't want to play that game thing...

nor do we want to pay $600 .

We don't wish to invade Poland with you either.

jadam
Nov 17, 2002, 02:07 PM
umm... no, pocketpcs cost only $200-500 for the new ones. and mind you the new $200/300 pocketpcs are REALLY REALLY REALLY nice BTW.

and FYI you are a child.

gooddog
Nov 17, 2002, 02:10 PM
For the less incendiary readers ,

WHY CAN'T APPLE DO ONE FOR US ?

(Or must I buy a Windoze emulator ?)

If you go to

http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/ipaq/5400/5400-3.htm

and check out the hp H5450, you will see that it will have TONS of features

including FOUR wireless modalities and

FINGERPRINT READER for security.

It has voice record, mp3, and tons of memory of all sorts with 14 hr. batt'

that (as I ask) is user-replaceable and recharges in the USB cradle.
Still, I'd like an empty batt' case where I can put my own AA rechrgeables or Alkalines in an emergency.

It has phone built-in too.

The screen is practically 16 X 9 , it seems, with high resolution.

All it lacks (BUILT-IN) seems to be a cool camera like Clié has., pointer, and motion

sensor.

The motion sensor can double as a proximity alarm : if the PDA is moved

from where you left it to turn your back or answer the door or stop a fight ...

the motion is sensed as a movement in the field of view -- having toggled the alarm

feature ON in addition to the pict-snap-email feature ... I hear my baby screaming for help.

This camera with screw-on lenses can be added modularly -- but I'd rather have it built in...

...with a built-in pointer for one-handed presentations from the PDA via Bluetooth to digital projector (these often involve not only the computer screen, but wall posters etc. whence the need to point...very minor addition - extremely useful-trust me!)

gooddog
Nov 17, 2002, 02:33 PM
JDAM,

FYI ...I know they are expensive. Yawn...

But ...evidently...it is quite possible to have all the features I ask for without

all the artificial calamities and hurdles that skeptics conjure up.

The laser is a negligible expense that yields extreme utility -- well worth it, and

speeds up alignment of documents for snap. ... $4 cost max.

A built-in camera seems more secure to me than a CF module..

The motion sensor/alarm feature already exists in Pen cameras .. big deal.

The H5450 will be ALMOST complete.

The idea is to tap a HUGE non-yuppie, non-teenrocker, but rather middle-class work force market who R E A L L Y need these features for instant multi-media DATA GATHERING IN STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENTS.

You should see my co-workers drool over just my little Prism/EyeModule2 and ask for buying info as they shuffle away with a mountain of papers in their arms !

Anyway, I'd rather have an Apple version of it than have to install Virtual PC in my
otherwise clean iMac just to use the H5450....but I might do just that if Apple won't
smell the coffee.

Handhelds are a MOST IMPORTANT part of the "DIGITAL HUB" -- not a niche.

Thanks for the "child" compliment. Now, give us a big kiss :)

jadam
Nov 17, 2002, 07:07 PM
im not going to argue with you as you are a moron. You can not even write english properly.

gooddog
Nov 17, 2002, 10:53 PM
Poor baby ! :(

Went to a battle of the wits unarmed, did we ?

Well, don't worry.

Once they reset your GPS, you'll be able to find your way
to the big, bad target and go boom like all the others in your bay.

You really are very smart, you know.

Next time, I know you'll hit the target.

Now, go penetrate elsewhere my little dud.

XXX OOO XXX

:p

Liamcow
Nov 17, 2002, 11:36 PM
I'm a little late in saying this but here goes...

Smartmedia?? ugh, everyone knows that sony memory stick is the best media available:D

...just had to say it

gooddog
Nov 18, 2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Liamcow
I'm a little late in saying this but here goes...

Smartmedia?? ugh, everyone knows that sony memory stick is the best media available:D

...just had to say it

**************

OK, OK you're probably right....

I don't really care about that --- I guess the other cards are coming down in
price ... and sticks do look sturdy and cool ....

What I care about is the INSTANT, EASY, gathering of PICTURES, VIDEO,
VOICE, etc. so I can spend less time doing hurried, sloppy, frenetic, meaningless work; and spend more time talking with my students and explaining math to them. It's self-defense against an out-of-control school administration that burries us all in futile documentation of every last twitch and cough.

I DO NOT WANT TO GO DIGGING for an expensive camera, then have to lock it up every second I'm not using it, and ditto for scanners (document photo's are fine) and voice recorders, etc .. each with its own manual, company policies, etc.

If you ever teach in LAUSD , you will know why I say this.

Imagine a nurse or doctor in a trauma center ... just pull out the old Nikon ehhh?... yeah - right.

Anyway, just last night, a story came on the news of a cop who is doing/saying exactly the same things I am saying/doing.... he finishes his drudge poaperwork in a fraction of the time that other cops in his department take.

jadam
Nov 18, 2002, 08:46 PM
Dude, your not beating me in any battle of the wits. Your a moron, plain and simple. I am not going to even bother arguing with you, arguing over a forum against someone as stubborn and ill informed as you is stupid.

dougrogers
Nov 18, 2002, 08:50 PM
I just bought a Zire, with which I am pretty happy. My main complaint is with the OS.... Wouldn't it be nice to not have to jump through hoops to get a tab-delimited text file out of Expense? (you can't, by the way) and scripting in Palm Desktop is ****ty difficult stupid tricky and inadequate. Would I jump from the Palm OS to an Apple OS ? With some kind of reliably scriptable Desktop Organizer, yes, in a second. APple doesn't need to blow the other PDA's out of the water to make an entrance. I don't need the high end. I need a reliable and controllable interface.

MacCoaster
Nov 18, 2002, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by jadam
im not going to argue with you as you are a moron. You can not even write english properly.
You mean to write that like:

I'm not going to argue with you as you are a moron. You can not even write English properly.

What's the point of attacking others on their English when you use poor English in the attack? :rolleyes:

Somebody
Nov 18, 2002, 10:07 PM
Dude, your not beating me in any battle of the wits. Your a moron, plain and simple.


That's "you're not beating me", and "You're a moron". Normally I don't do spelling or grammar flames, but, hey, like MacCoaster pointed out, you opened the door.

Gooddog might sound a little excited and ramble a bit, but she (he?) is at least posting some interesting thoughts about PDA applications, even if I do disagree about about the marketplace viability of the described device. You, on the other hand, are posting empty flames and getting hung up on relatively unimportant technical minutiae like CF vs SmartMedia.

jadam
Nov 19, 2002, 12:43 AM
umm, My errors are in fewer numbers then Gooddogs. What Gooddog wants is one of the worst PDAs imaginable, the PDA that he describes is impossible because of all of the extraneous features he mentions. He never went through how you could actually implent these ideas into a device and realized how impossible it is ATM.

MacCoaster
Nov 19, 2002, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by jadam
umm, My errors are in fewer numbers then Gooddogs. What Gooddog wants is one of the worst PDAs imaginable, the PDA that he describes is impossible because of all of the extraneous features he mentions. He never went through how you could actually implent these ideas into a device and realized how impossible it is ATM.
And man thought flight was impossible.

BkkChris
Nov 19, 2002, 11:16 AM
Can't Apple just make a well designed PDA hybrid that can replace my Sony Clie, 5gb IPod and tri-band GSM phone? The tech. exists in plenty, however nobody has been able to offer anything of any value yet. I don't care about useless features aplenty, just give me a nice Palm based PDA like the Sony, with the storage of the IPod and a nice tri-band Phone. Since Apple, Palm and Sony/Ericsson are bed pals of sort, there should be a viable partnership of some worth in creating such a product. Who wouldn't want one of these devices, and with Apple pushing the digital hub it fits into their marketing scheme. In my opinion Tablet PCs lack big time. Digital Cameras on phones/pda's lack big time. And most of all having to carry three devices around really is not fun. Don't tell me this would not be a great product and sell a ton.

gooddog
Nov 19, 2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by jadam
umm, My errors are in fewer numbers then Gooddogs. What Gooddog wants is one of the worst PDAs imaginable, the PDA that he describes is impossible because of all of the extraneous features he mentions. He never went through how you could actually implent these ideas into a device and realized how impossible it is ATM.
*******************

What "impossibility" are you talking about dud ?

And what do you know of Apple's cash reserve ATM ?

TM is N.

I've given you an URL where you can see the review of the hp H5450 which has SEVERAL types of wireless and a BIOMETRIC fingerprint reader to boot, along with everything else I mentioned.

Are you saying, from the summit of your mountain of expertise, that adding a
camera like the one Clié has will be the straw that breaks the camel's back ?

Or is it the $4.00 laser pointer in the stylus that challenges your massive intellect ?

Don't hide behind "I won't argue with you ..." whining ... since you obviously love it.

Instead, why don't you strap on a pair and come out to play.

Try to un-bunch your undies before you answer --- it will give you more room to think.

XXXOOOXXX

---gooddog

P.S. , That Certificate of Attendance just isn't the same as a real diploma, is it :)

G4scott
Nov 19, 2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by jadam
umm, My errors are in fewer numbers then Gooddogs. What Gooddog wants is one of the worst PDAs imaginable, the PDA that he describes is impossible because of all of the extraneous features he mentions. He never went through how you could actually implent these ideas into a device and realized how impossible it is ATM.

You are an a$$... Nobody likes an a$$... You might as well shut up.

In your opinion, what makes a PDA good and what makes a PDA crappy? You can make a base-line PDA that's small, affordable, and cheap, but then why not just get a daily planner for $10 at wal-mart? The technology to make PDA's feature-rich is out there. Someone just needs to put it in a package that works. Hopefully, Apple will do something about it. I mean, even dell had a PDA, and the only selling point it has is its price. You won't find any new, state-of-the-art features on these dell PDA's. They're bottom of the line, rock bottom.

Oh, and with the memory debate, why don't they just put a small 10gb HD in it (like the iPod), and have it transfer files via bluetooth. Right now, there are so many different memory cards, bluetooth seems to be the way to go because it's not brand-specific. Memory cards are too proprietary.

I do think that the laser would be a bit too much... No offense, but you can get a laser pointer to put on your key-chain that would work fine, if not better.

gooddog
Nov 19, 2002, 11:16 PM
*************

OK, that's it.
Nobody likes my LASER.
I have become bitter and reclusive.
All I wanted was to hold the PDA in my left hand, while Bluetoothing a presentation
through a digital image preocessor I don't even have.
I wanted to point to posters etc. on the wall (not on the screen) with my PDA without having to pull out another gadget (keychain, pen, 50 GWatt Iodine Death Star ...)
And, when snapping a pic of a document (quick, poor-man's xerox) , I wanted to
shine register marks onto the doc to avoid fussing with the LCD screen & vertigo as I frame the shot.
It was a nice little LASER.
It promised not to eat too much.
And it would be only about $4 to have and to love.
But, nooooohhh.
It had to be killed before it even had a chance to shine.
Well, someday my friends...
MARK MY WORDS...
SOMEDAY, PDA'S WILL SNAP PICS IN JUST THIS WAY, AND THEY WILL OCR THE
DOCS - A PAGE AT A TIME - INTO RAM.
AND I WILL BE HAILED AS "KING-PUP" -- SAVIOR OF THE UNWASHED MASSES.

...IMHO

Goodbye forever,

---gooddog

nixd2001
Nov 21, 2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by gooddog

We NEED EXACTLY *ONE* COMPLETE DEVICE
to CARRY IN OUR POCKETS --- NO MORE.


My current desire for a carry-only-one-device is the new Sony P800 phone/PDA thingy. Synced with iSync of course.

Paolo
Nov 22, 2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by insidedanshead
I'm a newbie because I decided to join macrumors after years of reading the boards... to help people like you understand reality. I have probably been using a mac since you been sucking your thumb. If you want to get into newb calling names ask me a few questions.. and we'll see who the real newbie is...


Hmmm you've been using macs for a long time then.... wow.... let me think they were released in 84? or 85? one of those days. And I think you'll find that most of the people here have been using them since then.
So keep in mind that there are those of us who did use the Apple, and The Apple II.
So don't assume ***** about anyone becasue you don't know anything about them.... for all we know, the person posting this whole thread could be Steve Jobs (unlikely, but Possible) and think how dumb you would look if it was!!!

jadam
Nov 29, 2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by MacCoaster

And man thought flight was impossible.
As I said, ATM, ATM means At The Moment.