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VinegarTasters
Sep 19, 2012, 07:12 AM
If you formatted a harddrive to NTFS (maybe from a windows machine), and you plug it into Mountain Lion, open Disk Utility app. Lets say you want to format it into ExFat (the FAT32 successor). But you want security by wiping it to zero first during the format.

Guess what? You can't do it. Each time you select "zero" the drive in the format options, and try to Erase the drive to ExFat, it fails. Why is that?

x0D7BHCZcqc

Apparently, no-one tested it before. Another bug. How do you get a workaround? You must format it WITHOUT any security (no zeros, no DOD security of wiping 3 times, etc). After you erase it without any security, then magically, the security options work. (you can "zero" the drive, do DOD security erase, etc).

There are LOTS of bugs crawling in OSX Mountain Lion that NOBODY fixes. Just slides under the rug release after release. Before, they may have less money, and you can get away with minor bugs not being fixed, but now that they are flush with money, continuing to ignore quality means something is wrong with their process.



maflynn
Sep 19, 2012, 07:15 AM
There are LOTS of bugs crawling in OSX Mountain Lion that NOBODY fixes.
Have you reported the bugs to apple? I've not seen LOTS of bugs in Mountain Lion so I'm not sure what you mean. Please expound on your point about lots of bugs.

GER-pbr
Sep 19, 2012, 07:21 AM
I'm pretty sure this is not a bug. You are trying to write on an NTFS-formatted drive which simply isn't possible. Once you re-formatted the volume to a different file system and to be in read/write-state, Disk Utility is able to write millions of zeros.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

I think you are completely overreacting; while there are bugs in the OS, there are certainly not "LOTS of bugs crawling in OSX Mountain Lion that NOBODY fixes".

VinegarTasters
Sep 19, 2012, 07:31 AM
Have you reported the bugs to apple? I've not seen LOTS of bugs in Mountain Lion so I'm not sure what you mean. Please expound on your point about lots of bugs.

Come on, stop trolling. Yes, the bugs are reported, just never fixed. The above bug for example.. You can just look in this forum, search for bugs. Shared Wi-Fi losing connection, etc.

Even this one, which will not be fixed because it is considered "minor":

eBFkB7x6duw


Another one is the separators in Finder (Earlier, 30 days, 7 days, etc) becomes folders. That is a new one but I am sure others have seen it if they used the finder enough.

----------

I'm pretty sure this is not a bug. You are trying to write on an NTFS-formatted drive which simply isn't possible. Once you re-formatted the volume to a different file system and to be in read/write-state, Disk Utility is able to write millions of zeros.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

I think you are completely overreacting; while there are bugs in the OS, there are certainly not "LOTS of bugs crawling in OSX Mountain Lion that NOBODY fixes".

No, makes no sense at all. This is the "format" functionality, where during the format, it adds security of wiping previous data. The "zero"ing is not in any other place other than the "format" area. It is a selectable option in "Format". It just doesn't work. Lots of people will use it and figure you can't format it using security, so they will never use it. If it was only tested first, they would have simply forced a format without security following a format with security if the user selected "zero" option. They could even make it a two step process like a "wizard" functionality in Windows, where it guides you through. they could even added text above it saying you can only format without security first round, then do it again second round. No. It just errors out.

Don't try to explain problems away. Fix the problems. Otherwise, these bugs will exist release, after release.

maflynn
Sep 19, 2012, 07:44 AM
How am I trolling when I asked you to expound upon your generic statement that there are LOTS of bugs. If you want to complain about the bugs, which is fair, please list the bugs your talking about. Generalized statements really are not conducive to discussing the issue

MacDawg
Sep 19, 2012, 07:47 AM
Too many people define a bug as something doesn't work the way want it to or expect it to, which truly is not a "bug"

maflynn
Sep 19, 2012, 07:51 AM
Back to my prior point, have you sent apple any feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html) on the bugs that you're complaining about?

Its possible that they're unaware of one or some of them, and if you submit them, they'll look into it.

Its one thing to complain about it in a forum, but quite another to actually communicate to apple that there's a problem with their software.

GER-pbr
Sep 19, 2012, 08:08 AM
Too many people define a bug as something doesn't work the way they want it to or expect it to, which truly is not a "bug"

ACK.

While I agree that some kind of message or hint would be helpful (saying it's not possible to erase before formatting), I don't see any point in discussing this issue here. This is certainly not a bug and all the functionality is there. You might call it a usability issue, though.

If you enjoy spending your day being upset because of a missing hint or warning, then go ahead and have fun. I'm not going to waste my time in this thread.

theSeb
Sep 19, 2012, 09:02 AM
If you formatted a harddrive to NTFS (maybe from a windows machine), and you plug it into Mountain Lion, open Disk Utility app. Lets say you want to format it into ExFat (the FAT32 successor). But you want security by wiping it to zero first during the format.

Guess what? You can't do it. Each time you select "zero" the drive in the format options, and try to Erase the drive to ExFat, it fails. Why is that?

Apparently, no-one tested it before. Another bug. How do you get a workaround? You must format it WITHOUT any security (no zeros, no DOD security of wiping 3 times, etc). After you erase it without any security, then magically, the security options work. (you can "zero" the drive, do DOD security erase, etc).

There are LOTS of bugs crawling in OSX Mountain Lion that NOBODY fixes. Just slides under the rug release after release. Before, they may have less money, and you can get away with minor bugs not being fixed, but now that they are flush with money, continuing to ignore quality means something is wrong with their process.

Testing everything is simply impossible so the answer to your question is, no. There is no software that is fully tested and bug free. Apple certainly does not ignore quality, but their developers and QA teams are only human.

I am struggling to understand your post though. Why are you expecting Disk Utility to be able to write to an NTFS drive when OS X does not have this ability natively? (that's what a secure wipes does - it needs to be able to write to the disk first) It can reformat an NTFS partition, but it cannot write to it so I am confused what you think the problem is.

Also, I would love to see a more detailed explanation of these "lots of bugs" that you have found, with examples.

NT1440
Sep 19, 2012, 09:04 AM
ML has built in Ntfs support?:confused:

theSeb
Sep 19, 2012, 09:08 AM
ML has built in Ntfs support?:confused:

Only read. There is also apparently hidden and inactive support for writing to NTFS, but it's deactivated for whatever reasons. (probably licensing)

Krazy Bill
Sep 19, 2012, 09:21 AM
Yes, the bugs are reported, just never fixed.You are just now figuring this out? :eek:

The squeaky wheel gets the oil and the wheels you want fixed just don't make enough noise. And now that iOS6 is done, I suspect more resources will be devoted to bug squashing in that arena. :(

Come on, stop trolling.

A trolling moderator. There's a new one. :D

maflynn
Sep 19, 2012, 09:38 AM
A trolling moderator. There's a new one. :D

I've been called worse ;)

old-wiz
Sep 19, 2012, 07:25 PM
Only read. There is also apparently hidden and inactive support for writing to NTFS, but it's deactivated for whatever reasons. (probably licensing)

licensing and... no one outside of IBM truly understands NTFS, and even the IBM people sometimes don't know.

CyBeRino
Sep 19, 2012, 07:36 PM
Only read. There is also apparently hidden and inactive support for writing to NTFS, but it's deactivated for whatever reasons. (probably licensing)

Actually it's to cover their collective behinds.

Only Microsoft knows how to write to NTFS and be certain nothing is going wrong.

Apple doesn't want to be sued by a bunch of people who hooked up their NTFS drive, wrote stuff to it and then found that corrupted a bunch of other crap.

And since Microsoft appears to not want to tell anyone else how NTFS works, this is what we're stuck with.

VinegarTasters
Sep 19, 2012, 07:44 PM
Man, you guys seem to want to explain the problems away. Have you thought about explaining the problems it may cause?

What if you are a government agency wanting to purchase Macs or convert to Macs? They have NTFS drives. Because of security, it needs to be wiped using DOD (3 layer security). If they use those NTFS drives as the main drive what will happen? They won't purchase MACS. Because Macs can't do the DOD security layer on the NTFS drives. Because the format is done before installing the OSX, there is NO option before installing OSX to do the DOD 3 layer security on the NTFS before putting on the OSX. No Mac purchases for government agency (or any corporation that requires DOD clearance).

No. This is not my case. But since you guys like explaining problems away, lets be fair I can do the same thing explaining problems will arise. Same with wired Magic Trackpad. No agency with emergency 24 hour uptime will purchase Macs because the batteries may run out and they may need to run to the convenience store to purchase batteries. Only Apple makes the magic trackpads, and they don't offer wired versions. If you are a 911 emergency receptionist, where uptime is critical, they are not going to purchase macs. Apple does not cater to special needs, and offer options. They are catered to the "noobs" and don't know anything, but likes cool things.

DVD9
Sep 19, 2012, 08:38 PM
Actually it's to cover their collective behinds.

Only Microsoft knows how to write to NTFS and be certain nothing is going wrong.

Apple doesn't want to be sued by a bunch of people who hooked up their NTFS drive, wrote stuff to it and then found that corrupted a bunch of other crap.

And since Microsoft appears to not want to tell anyone else how NTFS works, this is what we're stuck with.

Linux distros have no problem with NTFS.

Download a Ubuntu CD and try it.

pdjudd
Sep 19, 2012, 11:25 PM
Linux distros have no problem with NTFS.

We are talking about full proper support that is guaranteed 100% to work reliably. Can any solution in a linux distro guarantee that? I doubt it. Trouble is, that their is no accountability in that - nobody can sue when the you-know-what-hits-the-you-know-where. That isn't the case with Apple. They face major liability if they try and do this sort of thing and fail. If Apple fails, they face big problems with people since the disk would be pretty much gone and Apple could face legal liability.

There is also the problem of comparing a commercial OS to one that is not commercial but I won't go there. Ubuntu is not comparable to Apple.

Pretty much any Reading NTFS solution involves something non-native and is a custom thing. The closest we can get is from Paragon (as far as I know) who (I believe) writes their own custom solution. Maybe they even license some tech (I honestly don't have any deep knowledge of how Paragon does things).

Suffice to say, Apple has never supporting any sort of writing to NTFS - something that is no secret. It isn't a bug, it's a limitation of writing a commercial OS where Apple isn't into taking risks. Same thing with MS not supporting reading or writing to HFS+ (not at all). It's possible with extra software, but MS doesn't support it. Apple provides *some* support, just not what the OP wants. It's not a bug - Apple doesn't promise full support of NTFS volumes (they don't even advertise it last I checked)

And again, there is a difference between "we can get it to work" verus "we can advertise this and support this as a feature to end consumers" Apple doesn't want to take a risk there since there us a huge risk for failure and even might involve legal problems.

chrono1081
Sep 19, 2012, 11:32 PM
Man, you guys seem to want to explain the problems away. Have you thought about explaining the problems it may cause?

What if you are a government agency wanting to purchase Macs or convert to Macs? They have NTFS drives. Because of security, it needs to be wiped using DOD (3 layer security). If they use those NTFS drives as the main drive what will happen? They won't purchase MACS. Because Macs can't do the DOD security layer on the NTFS drives. Because the format is done before installing the OSX, there is NO option before installing OSX to do the DOD 3 layer security on the NTFS before putting on the OSX. No Mac purchases for government agency (or any corporation that requires DOD clearance).

No. This is not my case. But since you guys like explaining problems away, lets be fair I can do the same thing explaining problems will arise. Same with wired Magic Trackpad. No agency with emergency 24 hour uptime will purchase Macs because the batteries may run out and they may need to run to the convenience store to purchase batteries. Only Apple makes the magic trackpads, and they don't offer wired versions. If you are a 911 emergency receptionist, where uptime is critical, they are not going to purchase macs. Apple does not cater to special needs, and offer options. They are catered to the "noobs" and don't know anything, but likes cool things.

No one is explaining problems away, they're simply saying if you feel its a bug, report it. Complaining about it on Mac Rumors does absolutely nothing. Apple doesn't read Macrumors.

Bug reporting has a system, go to http://www.apple.com/feedback and report the bug.

Also all of your "so and so won't purchase Macs because x reason" are completely, 100% invalid. If Windows machines were so perfect and stable I would not have a job right now.

You're getting angry for no reason.

Mr. Retrofire
Sep 20, 2012, 05:24 AM
What if you are a government agency wanting to purchase Macs or convert to Macs? They have NTFS drives. Because of security, it needs to be wiped using DOD (3 layer security).
No. Not really. The DoD uses encrypted drives (similar to FileVault 2 and BitLocker). And the DoD does not erase the data. The DoD destroys the HDDs/SSDs, if necessary. (http://iase.disa.mil/policy-guidance/destruction-of-dod-computer-hard-drives-prior-to-disposal-01-08-01.pdf)

theSeb
Sep 21, 2012, 05:25 AM
Man, you guys seem to want to explain the problems away. Have you thought about explaining the problems it may cause?

What if you are a government agency wanting to purchase Macs or convert to Macs? They have NTFS drives. Because of security, it needs to be wiped using DOD (3 layer security). If they use those NTFS drives as the main drive what will happen? They won't purchase MACS. Because Macs can't do the DOD security layer on the NTFS drives. Because the format is done before installing the OSX, there is NO option before installing OSX to do the DOD 3 layer security on the NTFS before putting on the OSX. No Mac purchases for government agency (or any corporation that requires DOD clearance).

No. This is not my case. But since you guys like explaining problems away, lets be fair I can do the same thing explaining problems will arise. Same with wired Magic Trackpad.

Yes, I can just see the men in black suits pondering and worrying over this one.

Your use case is simply not valid, but feel free to keep ranting and accusing people of being this and that, since you don't like, or understand, the explanation you've been given. OS X cannot write to an NTFS partition, so how is it supposed to securely wipe an NTFS partition? Why not format it into HFS Journaled and then do another format with secure wipe? You could have done this already instead of ranting on the forum.


No agency with emergency 24 hour uptime will purchase Macs because the batteries may run out and they may need to run to the convenience store to purchase batteries. Only Apple makes the magic trackpads, and they don't offer wired versions. If you are a 911 emergency receptionist, where uptime is critical, they are not going to purchase macs. Apple does not cater to special needs, and offer options. They are catered to the "noobs" and don't know anything, but likes cool things.
hahahahah. Seriously. What does that have to do with your problem? Seems like you're now just going off on some weird tangent. Wow. Apple does not create a wired trackpad for emergency control rooms. Apple = fail. It's been a while since I've seen some logic like this.

----------

No. Not really. The DoD uses encrypted drives (similar to FileVault 2 and BitLocker). And the DoD does not erase the data. The DoD destroys the HDDs/SSDs, if necessary. (http://iase.disa.mil/policy-guidance/destruction-of-dod-computer-hard-drives-prior-to-disposal-01-08-01.pdf)

Please don't pollute this thread with your facts and excuses.

:D

old-wiz
Sep 21, 2012, 09:58 AM
Why in the world would a 911 emergency center have to depend on a wired/wireless trackpad? Could they not use a mouse? Wired mice have no batteries and are a proven technology and it is very cheap and easy to keep a backup in house.

Trackpads are nice, but hardly a serious requirement.

Purant
Sep 21, 2012, 01:21 PM
I think the OP makes some good points, but the way he is expressing himself isn't helping.

Being able to do a zero-fill format (or low level format as it's often called... incorrectly) is something that you should be able to do, and the format process shouldn't care about what kind of filesystem is there already.

Also, it is true that Lion and ML are a step down from Snow Leopard in terms of cohesion and stability. SL is a mature OS, ML has a ton of quirks right now, a lot of the iOS inspired features feel really tacked on and not that useful and the built-in apps lack cohesion...

CyBeRino
Sep 24, 2012, 08:19 AM
Linux distros have no problem with NTFS.

Download a Ubuntu CD and try it.

I'm a UNIX/Linux sysadmin. I'll pass on that if you don't mind.


Linux doesn't have this problem because they aren't a multi-billion-dollar company. They have pretty much zero chance of being sued for data loss. Apple is somewhat different in this regard.

VinegarTasters
Sep 24, 2012, 08:56 AM
No. Not really. The DoD uses encrypted drives (similar to FileVault 2 and BitLocker). And the DoD does not erase the data. The DoD destroys the HDDs/SSDs, if necessary. (http://iase.disa.mil/policy-guidance/destruction-of-dod-computer-hard-drives-prior-to-disposal-01-08-01.pdf)

Nice find. But it doesn't pertain to this case. That document states for disposal of computers. Whereas the case here is the computers are not for disposal but for possible DOD use.

Also, DOD as in DOD security layer (3 layer security erase). It is not department of defense, it is the protocol for dealing with harddrives. You could have just opened up Disk Utility and look at the menu options... DOD 3 layer security. So it has nothing to do with DOD, it has to do with security.

Lastly, there are apple people lurking in these forums. There are many people who have reported that Apple got their email address looked up from these forums and Apple directly emailed them (note that email address are normally not public on these forum posts). In fact, every time I mention something bad about Apple products (that are detrimental to their profit line), my posts get sent to the wasteland. Coincidence? I think not.

theSeb
Sep 24, 2012, 09:04 AM
I think the OP makes some good points, but the way he is expressing himself isn't helping.

Being able to do a zero-fill format (or low level format as it's often called... incorrectly) is something that you should be able to do, and the format process shouldn't care about what kind of filesystem is there already.


Try to do this in Windows on a HFS+ partitioned drive and tell us what the result is.

Purant
Sep 25, 2012, 08:49 PM
Try to do this in Windows on a HFS+ partitioned drive and tell us what the result is.

No, you try it if you want to discredit what I said so much, I don't have the time for this.

Any kind of low level formatting and/or zero filling doesn't care what kind of filesystem the current partition has. You don't even have to boot into windows or whatever there are tools (often supplied by HD manufacturers) that are bootable and do that job.

Puevlo
Sep 25, 2012, 09:31 PM
They do test things, just not as much as they should. There are bugs but they have to prioritise them. This often means some of the smaller ones stay around for a while.

VinegarTasters
Sep 25, 2012, 10:43 PM
No, you try it if you want to discredit what I said so much, I don't have the time for this.

Any kind of low level formatting and/or zero filling doesn't care what kind of filesystem the current partition has. You don't even have to boot into windows or whatever there are tools (often supplied by HD manufacturers) that are bootable and do that job.

theSeb and puevlo are most likely a hired posters. Say anything bad about Apple products you can be sure he will follow up with attacks that intimidate good customers like yourself who just want them to improve. Its such a simple process... they can simply format it to HFS, zero it out, THEN install OSX. Doesn't matter what file system was there before. No brainer solution. But NO. It just bugs out. Then you have people like him who comes in and blames YOU for revealing the bug, and says the problem is you. This is bad customer relations marketing. It will drive people to hate apple products because of how they treat customers.

theSeb
Sep 26, 2012, 02:34 AM
Yes, I get paid to post pro apple propaganda. :rolleyes:

There is no need to insult people, by calling them paid shills, just because they disagree with you, or show that you're wrong with facts.

Mr. Retrofire
Sep 26, 2012, 03:54 AM
theSeb and puevlo are most likely a hired posters.
Yes, they are members of the CIA & NSA. And i'm Barack Obama and Santa Claus in one person.

theSeb
Sep 26, 2012, 04:17 AM
Yes, they are members of the CIA & NSA. And i'm Barack Obama and Santa Claus in one person.

All agents, we've a security breach level 4. Please stop perving over the scanner pictures we've obtained from the lads in TSA and initiate the relocation of the president to location B451.

How does one become a paid shill anyway? We could be kajillionaires if we get a good rate for each post.

VinegarTasters
Sep 26, 2012, 04:37 AM
Please stay on topic, and not disrupt useful communication. Obfuscation does not mean the problem will go away by ignoring it. just like removing the guys pointing to the fire means the fire is gone.

"they can simply format it to HFS, zero it out, THEN install OSX. Doesn't matter what file system was there before. No brainer solution. But NO. It just bugs out." or as the above poster says, they can do low-level write without ntfs licensing.

No responses. Instead we are dragged into conversations about paranoia with government agencies and airport security, and even perverts over nude pics. Which, psychologically, shows one is paranoid about secret agents, and one is insecure about his nudity.

ScottishCaptain
Sep 26, 2012, 04:56 AM
Have you reported the bugs to apple? I've not seen LOTS of bugs in Mountain Lion so I'm not sure what you mean. Please expound on your point about lots of bugs.

There is no official way for non-developers to report bugs. Please keep this in mind when suggesting it, otherwise it's a yearly $99 fee just to have the privilege of telling Apple about it- though that doesn't guarantee they'll actually do anything about it (I've got several long standing bugs that have been open since 10.7.0 and are still present in 10.8.2).

I'm pretty sure this is not a bug. You are trying to write on an NTFS-formatted drive which simply isn't possible. Once you re-formatted the volume to a different file system and to be in read/write-state, Disk Utility is able to write millions of zeros.

This is a bug.

The file system and partition table are irrelevant. When performing a secure erasure, you're basically telling the drive to go through and write zeros (or random data) to each sector of the drive until you run out of space. What was there doesn't matter because it's being overwritten; a secure erase will blow away both the partition table and file system.

This is the same thing as running `dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/diskN`, where N is the number of your disk under OS X.

The closest analogy I can come up with is this- you've got a piece of paper with undecipherable pencil markings on it. Just because you can't make sense of what the paper says doesn't mean you can't take an erasure to it or a bottle of white out. Securely erasing a disk drive is the same thing, Disk Utility shouldn't care about what was on the drive when performing a secure erase because it doesn't matter.

Only read. There is also apparently hidden and inactive support for writing to NTFS, but it's deactivated for whatever reasons. (probably licensing)

NTFS is a proprietary, closed source technology. It is somewhat understood outside of Microsoft, but not fully. Microsoft can and does make changes to NTFS and they don't have to tell anyone- these changes could mean that your attempts to even mount an NTFS formatted partition could blow away all your data.

A while ago (during the 10.5/10.6 days where ZFS was still on the table and Apple cared about improving things, rather then adding new shiny **** nobody needs) there was a way to forcefully enable NTFS write support under OS X. As I recall, doing so generally worked- but if you ever enabled write support on an NTFS volume containing NTFS compressed files or folders- the entire partition was lost.

Bugs like that are the reason why write support isn't enabled. Without access to Microsoft's NTFS specs or source code, nobody can truly write a 100% compatible implementation- and therefore accessing NTFS partitions outside of Windows can be dangerous.

-SC

theSeb
Sep 26, 2012, 05:22 AM
There is no official way for non-developers to report bugs. Please keep this in mind when suggesting it, otherwise it's a yearly $99 fee just to have the privilege of telling Apple about it- though that doesn't guarantee they'll actually do anything about it (I've got several long standing bugs that have been open since 10.7.0 and are still present in 10.8.2).

Anyone can submit bug reports without joining the developer program.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Simply choose whichever product is most appropriate. On the next screen you can select "Feedback type" and change it to "Bug Report".


This is a bug.

The file system and partition table are irrelevant. When performing a secure erasure, you're basically telling the drive to go through and write zeros (or random data) to each sector of the drive until you run out of space. What was there doesn't matter because it's being overwritten; a secure erase will blow away both the partition table and file system.

This is the same thing as running `dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/diskN`, where N is the number of your disk under OS X.

The closest analogy I can come up with is this- you've got a piece of paper with undecipherable pencil markings on it. Just because you can't make sense of what the paper says doesn't mean you can't take an erasure to it or a bottle of white out. Securely erasing a disk drive is the same thing, Disk Utility shouldn't care about what was on the drive when performing a secure erase because it doesn't matter.

-SC
I have to disagree on whether this is a bug or not; maybe I would call it a missing feature. You can reformat the partition into HFS+ and then do a secure erase, so what's the problem? Can you secure erase an HFS+ partition directly from windows without a 3rd party application?

balamw
Sep 26, 2012, 06:14 AM
Can you secure erase an HFS+ partition directly from windows without a 3rd party application?

And if you can, couldn't that also be considered a bug? Personally, I would expect the OS to make it just a bit harder to mess with a file system that it doesn't fully understand.

It doesn't seem outrageous to me to have to wipe out the partition table before you can wipe the drive.

Of course, if you already know what you are doing you can just use dd from Terminal as ScottishCaptain has pointed out.

B

Purant
Sep 26, 2012, 12:24 PM
And if you can, couldn't that also be considered a bug? Personally, I would expect the OS to make it just a bit harder to mess with a file system that it doesn't fully understand.

It doesn't seem outrageous to me to have to wipe out the partition table before you can wipe the drive.

Of course, if you already know what you are doing you can just use dd from Terminal as ScottishCaptain has pointed out.

B

When you are about to format something, you obviously decided you don't need the data on it anymore...

balamw
Sep 26, 2012, 12:55 PM
When you are about to format something, you obviously decided you don't need the data on it anymore...

I don't know about you, but I've definitely formatted/partitioned my share of drives before I really intended to. This is why many of the tools have "Are you sure?" type dialog boxes, and why many quick format and partition operations can be recovered from.

I've also managed to radically confuse multi-boot systems by using Windows tools in a Windows/Linux environment. Or fallen victim the sheer idiocy of Windows trying to expand its service pack to the first logical drive in the system even though it is mounted read only.

None of this stops you from doing what you want to do if you know what the limitations are. Even with dd, you need to unmount the file system first for it to work.

B

Purant
Sep 26, 2012, 02:15 PM
I don't know about you, but I've definitely formatted/partitioned my share of drives before I really intended to. This is why many of the tools have "Are you sure?" type dialog boxes, and why many quick format and partition operations can be recovered from.

I have low tolerance for "features" like that. I don't want my OS to question my decision every time. I almost always scream "YEAH OF COURSE I AM SURE" (on the inside) at those prompts. I want my OS to treat me like an adult and respect my decisions.

I really hated it when Leopard (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong), introduced that "this application was downloaded from the internet and could be dangerous bla bla" prompt. I really, really hated it. Those kinds of prompts is one of the reasons I really disliked Windows and it was refreshing to see so few of them in MacOS (although more are introduced in each version).

I need my OS to be efficient, not foolproof.

So maybe in the Disk Utility, there is a disclaimer up top that says, you can lose your files here if you don't know what you are doing, so proceed with caution and then lets you do whatever. I don't see how an OS taking features out for the sake of being foolproof is a good thing.

balamw
Sep 26, 2012, 02:28 PM
I need my OS to be efficient, not foolproof.


Meh. I generally want both, and OS X generally strikes a good balance there for me. [I have the same inner conversation as you, "Of course I'm sure", but sometimes it's followed by a "D'Oh! Guess I didn't really mean that. Abort! Abort!]

If I really want to sacrifice foolproof-ness for efficiency, I know I can always open Terminal and get exactly what I want done.

In all cases for this kind of low level operation, an uninformed user can royally screw things up real fast.

B

Purant
Sep 26, 2012, 02:42 PM
Meh. I generally want both, and OS X generally strikes a good balance there for me. [I have the same inner conversation as you, "Of course I'm sure", but sometimes it's followed by a "D'Oh! Guess I didn't really mean that. Abort! Abort!]

In all fairness, I had that too. The problem is that my response is so automatic, that the prompt doesn't really serve its purpose.

For example: I automatically confirm that I want to "empty my trash" even in times that I didn't want to empty my trash in hindsight.

I don't think the prompts serve the purpose the devs think they do, because after a while they condition the user to just press "yes" at the prompt (he knows is coming) without thinking about it. And the whole point of the prompts is to give you a change to think about it again. It does server its purpose for the first... say 20 times you see it?

I do agree that Mac OS strikes a fairly good balance, but I'm seeing it slowly lean towards the wrong direction recently.

theSeb
Sep 26, 2012, 05:00 PM
hahahah

Instead of arguing I should have tested this first. It does actually work (although I didn't reformat into exFAT; I used HFS+. I can try again when I am bored). I have no idea what the OP was actually doing.

Here is a drive formatted in NTFS. So I am going to secure format it into HFS+.


http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/da_seb/benchmarks/ScreenShot2012-09-26at224401.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/da_seb/benchmarks/ScreenShot2012-09-26at224425.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/da_seb/benchmarks/ScreenShot2012-09-26at224452.png

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/da_seb/benchmarks/ScreenShot2012-09-26at224458.png

Initial estimate is a bit hopeful
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/da_seb/benchmarks/ScreenShot2012-09-26at224523.png

But then it changes to a realistic figure
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g35/da_seb/benchmarks/ScreenShot2012-09-26at224928.png

ScottishCaptain was right. It's not even a missing feature. :D

VinegarTasters
Sep 27, 2012, 04:56 PM
x0D7BHCZcqc

theSeb is at it again. You just showed my "workaround", but seems to have purposely skipped the part with the errors popping out showing it can't zero wipe with the NTFS drive. Basically, as described in my posts, you need to format it to HFS, then do the wipe/format a second time. (you see that finally at the end of the video). A lot of people will give up during the "selecting process" after seeing all the error pop up. A simple message explaining AFTER the quick format, do it AGAIN. Or the operating system can automatically do the zero right after the initial quick format. But no, it just errors out.

The problem is that if you use this NTFS drive as the main drive, how will it work? Using bootcamp for example. Because you are formatting the main drive, OSX will be gone, so it is going to install OSX immediately after right? During a restore to a NTFS drive, you would want the previous sensitive data securely wiped. How will you get the options to zero wipe before installing OSX. No workaround would then exist. How will a government agency zero wipe the NTFS drive? I was explaining that explaining the problem away, you can always explain the problems it causes.

If you have a bigger NTFS drive, how do you securely (with zero wipe) restore OSX to it as the MAIN drive? And how would bootcamp work with it?