Very, very upset with my Powerbook. Thinking about switching back to PC

[Drile]

I recently purchased a Powerbook 15" fully loaded (1.67, 128 vram, 100 gig, etc..).

The first computer came completely DOA. Wouldn't even start up.

The replacement took about 3 weeks to get to me after delays in production and other ********. I was told I would have it in less than five days.

Now my replacement keeps freezing up on me, random apps keep needing force quits, and this screen pops up frequently...

http://www.macmaps.com/kernelpanic102.jpg

Because of the delays in getting the new computer to me I missed the deadlines on my rebate for my printer. (rebate requires upc of label of box of Powerbook) Apple yanked me around by my nuts and threatened not to honor the rebate after it was their damned fault I missed the deadline because it took them weeks for me to get my replacement.

I am going to call tomorrow morning, but I don't even know what to demand yet. I don't even know if I want another replacement. I'll probably ask for a refund.

Don't get me wrong. OS X is great....when it works. If my computer would work, then I would love it.

I am leaving for NY on labor day. I have to have my laptop with me for work purposes.

Any company can have problems like this, that isn't what pisses me off. It is getting treated like trash by the support team when I spend $3,000 plus on an order. That is unacceptable, and Apple has probably lost a customer for life.

I'll update you guys in the morning on how Apple handles this one.

[.Andy]

That sucks heaps Drile. I feel for you so much. It's horrible to have to wait so long for you Mac to come let alone have it DOA. I can only imagine what it would be like to have it happen twice.

It sucks that Apple have treated you rudely as well. I hope you've kept a level head. You'd think that they'd be very apologetic given the delays in getting you powerbook to you and it being their fault. It always helps if you can to get your call escalated up the hierachy - they'll usually be a little more trained in customer service.

Be strong my friend :).


p.s you don't have any 3rd party RAM in your baby do you?

[Drile]

That sucks heaps Drile. I feel for you so much. It's horrible to have to wait so long for you Mac to come let alone have it DOA. I can only imagine what it would be like to have it happen twice.

It sucks that Apple have treated you rudely as well. I hope you've kept a level head. You'd think that they'd be very apologetic given the delays in getting you powerbook to you and it being their fault. It always helps if you can to get your call escalated up the hierachy - they'll usually be a little more trained in customer service.

Be strong my friend :).


p.s you don't have any 3rd party RAM in your baby do you?

Thanks. It feels great so have somebody treat me with some respect... ;)

I haven't even had a chance to install 3rd party RAM yet, so that is definitely not the problem here.

[Diatribe]

Sorry to hear that. It seems you have some bad RAM. Call Apple or bring it to an Apple store and have it taken care of. Just tell them politely that you are not happy with all your inconveniences, etc. and see what they can do. Best of luck to you.

[za9ra22]

Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy and this just reminds me how bad Apple customer service can be when it's bad, but as frustrating and aggravating as it is to be provided faulty equipment and then be treaded shoddily as a result, it really doesn't make any sense to turn your back on Apple systems as a consequence. Not that they don't deserve that you do just that, but that in the end, if you're an Apple user and you like working with the OS, then it's you who'll suffer for your choice, not Apple.

Those of us who have bought and used Apple systems since the very early days know just how bad this company can be at times when it comes to paying respect to it's loyal customer base. Indeed, 'bad' isn't really the word for it. There are times they seem to derive perverse pleasure from doing entirely the wrong thing. But the reason we keep buying their products is because aside from the occasional failure such as you have had, Apple systems really do just work, and in an industry full of manufacturers who have no clue about innovation or innovative design and no interest in making stand-out products, Apple stands out as capable of producing the most astonishing systems which provide a remarkable quality of user experience.

If you're one of those people for whom that user experience is positive, I'd urge you to do what many others do - stick with Apple, not for their good, but for yours!

[jamesW135]

That really sucks but I think the mac is worth it in the end.

[alex_ant]

Unfortunately Apple no longer produces Macs in US factories. Nowadays they're built on the same assembly lines in Taiwan and China as PCs. Whether you buy a PC or a Mac you have roughly the same chance of it failing.

[AstrosFan]

First and foremost, sorry about your difficulty - it is extremely frustrating to deal with a malfunctioning computer.
I believe what you are experiencing qualifies as a kernel panic (see here (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106227)).
Here's the Apple troubleshooting guide (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25392) for kernel panics.
The basic gist is to see if you're recently installed any software, hardware or RAM. If so, then uninstall/unhook those and try again. If not, you may consider a reinstall of the OS.
The other option I would strongly consider is calling Apple support - I had a kernel panic issue with my PB for which I ultimately had to send the computer to Apple. However, prior to that, I talked with several Apple tech support people who were ALL very helpful & knowledgeable. They walked me through several troubleshooting steps - it's possible that one of those would work for you.

If this is elementary and obvious to everyone, I apologize for that - I just hadn't seen it said so I thought it was worth mentioning.
Good luck!

[caveman_uk]

The first 15" powerbook I bought a week ago was a dud. Ran for two hours then there was a panic and upon restarting it never booted again. I ran the hardware test CD and it said there was a memory fault. Swapped slots - a fault on the other slot. Swapped for a known good DIMM - still the same. The machine was dead. Fortunately I didn't buy it direct from Apple so I got a refund.

The second powerbook I bought had the power adapter go 'pop' the next day.

Apple's build quality and QC seem to be lacking...

In your case I would suggest running the extended test from the Hardware test CD to see if there's a hardware fault.

[mjstew33]

Well, I have had a great experience with Apple. Just got my fully fuctional iBook G4 1.42GHz, works flawlessyly. As right now I'm typing this enjoying my computer experience while my PeeCee is running spyware and virus tests. :rolleyes:

I think you've just been very unlucky. I know your fustration, but, do NOT switch back, really, don't. Just make this order go through and get a fully fuctional PowerBook.

You'll be happy you did ;)

[caveman_uk]

To be honest that comment was rather unhelpful. It was a bit like telling a bloke that had had his balls ripped off that you still had both yours and they worked great... :rolleyes:

[IJ Reilly]

You've got a hardware problem, but I think you already know that. Probably something like 90% of hardware problems are RAM-related. Even RAM that comes pre-installed can be bad! I had this exact problem with my PowerBook. Drove me to distraction until I figured it out. Apple really wasn't any help at all. I had to tell them how I'd fixed it -- by replacing the RAM in the bottom slot. It's been fine ever since. I don't understand why Apple tech support is so poorly briefed on this, since the problem is so common.

[matthew24]

Well I do understand your feelings.

I switched 3 years ago, and I enjoy computing again.
Knowing how great the experience will be I would hold on, also going back to Windows will never be an option, knowing the difference.

Keep in mind: This could happen with any manufacturer.

Perseverence will give you a great reward, and I am sure Apple will help you if you stay correct in your attitude, sure when they know you are a switcher.

It's gonna be alright. ;)

[PaRaGoNViCtiM]

Don't go back to PC's!!!!

[Drile]

.

[IJ Reilly]

Sorry to see that you've walked into such a nightmare. In fairness it could happen anywhere in corporate America, but I am surprised it happened to this extent with Apple. The only time I had to send a Mac back to Apple for repair, the process was handled rapidly and professionally.

Incidentally, I seriously doubt you'd get any better treatment from IBM. They don't even make PCs anymore. It's a real foot-race to the bottom in the PC world in terms of quality and service.

[iEdd]

They're punishing you for not switching sooner, now they are making you wait longer :D

[Demon Hunter]

What a pity party. I'm sorry for your troubles, but we all have them. I sent my PowerBook back 5 times before getting it replaced. I then had to swap the replacement for a bad screen. And now it works fine.

You are simultaneously expecting Apple to give you an iPod or $300 worth of merchandise, while trying to convince them you are a good customer and they would be sorry to lose you? What kind of logic is that? Where does it say you get such "gifts"? Oh, forums.

I liked how you used your "leverage" on other forums, good intimidation there. I am sure they are scared. A five year old is sending them e-mails, I would be too.

Sorry if I have no respect for people who expect unbelievable compensation because they are so special, and had to work in a room with wired ethernet. Lol.

EDIT: I see you realized how silly your letter was. This is mostly directed towards that.

[chucknorris]

What a pity party. I'm sorry for your troubles, but we all have them. I sent my PowerBook back 5 times before getting it replaced. I then had to swap the replacement for a bad screen. And now it works fine.

You are simultaneously expecting Apple to give you an iPod or $300 worth of merchandise, while trying to convince them you are a good customer and they would be sorry to lose you? What kind of logic is that? Where does it say you get such "gifts"? Oh, forums.

I liked how you used your "leverage" on other forums, good intimidation there. I am sure they are scared. A five year old is sending them e-mails, I would be too.

Sorry if I have no respect for people who expect unbelievable compensation because they are so special, and had to work in a room with wired ethernet. Lol.

EDIT: I see you realized how silly your letter was. This is mostly directed towards that.

I'm not sure why so many get off on tearing into others online. Is it empowering or something?

Sheesh! Take it easy!

[AmigoMac]

They're punishing you for not switching sooner, now they are making you wait longer :D

hehe, now that's mean. :D

Sorry to read that bunch of problems but do not go to pc's ...

Oh WTF! 2000+ posts! and I remember what I thought about those with 1000+ :D .

[James L]

I dunno... I sort of agree. You have had bad luck with a couple of machines.... **** happens.

The important thing is that you must now decide on whether or not to POLITELY pursue (yelling and throwing tantrums, not that I am saying the original poster did this, gets you no where) the issue with apple, or go buy a different machine.

It is the concept of "shipping delay" == "lying" that is a joke.

Shipping delays happen. Deal with it. The person who told you when it would be shipped might have been totally sincere, and something came up since then. That ain't lying.

I have had Apple take back a 15" PB with ONE stuck pixel... something they clearly say they will not do. The trick is to politely work your way up the food chain, and whenever you get a no, ask for their name, and then ask to speak to their boss. The food chain ends at one person.

As to expecting gifts for the delay... well, it never hurts to ask, but you shouldn't expect.

And finally, as to the threat of posting this on a bunch of forums PPPPLEEEASE... what a childish threat. Apple deals in BILLIONS of dollars of business per year. Do you really think that the threat of making them look bad on a few internet forums where a few people hang out is a real threat?

...nope.

I am not trying to **** on the original poster. I am only trying to point out that no one is out to get him, no one has lied evily to him, etc. He has had a couple of bad machines. Bummer. Either keep going after Apple up thr food chain politely, or just buy another brand.

Simple.

[Duff-Man]

Duff-Man says....I am always a bit surprised when I read these stories. I have owned a lot of Apple products and never required service on any of them...and while I realize that this may be an anomaly and every company is going to have a few "lemons" go out the door, when that does happen everything I have ever read about customer service satisfaction surveys (and not just initial sale but after sale support...) gives Apple very high marks and frequently they are at the top of the heap.

As has been suggested already, I would pursue the issue with Apple, keeping your cool but being firm as well...it is *not* normal for this to happen and if you can get to the right person they *will* make it right for you....oh yeah!

[Heb1228]

I'm just wondering how he got that screenshot in his original post since by the time that screen comes up, you can't do anything else on the machine...

Also, can I just say that reading duff mans posts always makes my night when i get to the end. i would say oh yeah but i don't want to steal the trademark.

[ajampam]

Boy, sorry to hear about your predicament...it sure is a bummer...I just hope you can find the right set of people to deal with and things fall into place....But it would be sad if you switch though....I have never had issues like this with any of the PCs I owned either, but I used curse at them everyday about OTHER things....so do you think switching will really help!! :(

[Mechcozmo]

Well, that sucks.

The best way to fix this problem is my tried-and-true method.

1. Don't be whiny. Don't think you are entitled to free stuff. You can complain about the iPod or printer whatever it is that is the free thingy nowadays, but we get to that later.

2. Be polite. Always. A whiny twat will get nowhere. A person who explains that they are aggravated and trying to work through this will earn sympathy.

3. Don't lie. Then you lose.

4. Here's what you do. Call AppleCare. Ask to talk to a manager. Explain what happened and that you need you need your laptop for work. Explain you are attempting to switch, but you are getting frustrated at the lack of help you are getting. Tell them that you really want your PowerBook but it isn't working. Also explain the rebate and how you have been previously jipped. (Sympathy points) If they don't help you, ask to talk to their manager. That should be the highest you need to go to get help, but even the "one-up" guy should help.

5. Don't give up. Apple can have amazing support... or it can have crap support. It sucks when you are having a crap moment. But for me, I sent in my PowerBook on a Monday and it was back Thursday. About 72 hours between it leaving and coming back. See what I mean by, "Good when it's good, bad when it's bad?"

6. Please stay with the Mac community. We'd love to have ya with us. Welcome to the light side of computing. :)

[MacTruck]

Everyone says apple service is the best but I deal extensively with apple and IBM (yeah I know they don't make them anymore lenovo does) and I must say IBM has blown apple completely out of the water in regards to service. You only get good service with apple if you buy the applecare protection plan. Without it they treat you like crap. IBM gives you the same respect whether your computer has a 1yr warranty or a 3 yr. I have also a T42p and it is the best machine out there, with the exception that it runs XP but that could change with the intel version of OS X. YEAH!

[kalisphoenix]

Hmm... never really had serious problems with any of my Apples. Now my Suns... those were some ****ing bitches...

I try to always have at least three computers in the house that can be worked on at any given time.

[Chrispy]

I had 4 bad powermacs in a row this summer and a few weeks ago received a 15" powerbook just like yours (BTO and all) and it had some issues that required a replacement. The replacement was also bad and I just had them issue me a refund. They were very nice about it but it was still a pain. I am now using a 15" powerbook that has black in the bottom two corners of the screen and a darker upper left corner than upper right... I think I may just to with a 12" and call it quits for awhile lol. Best of luck to you and, believe me, I feel your pain.

[madmaxmedia]

I can't believe that there are people who have had to deal with 3 or 4 bad new machines in a row...I mean I believe them, but I can't believe their bad fortune...heck I buy used Macs off EBay and have never had problems.

I hope things work out for OP, and he is happy with a working PowerBook at one point. I think after the second dead PB, I would have absolutely demanded a new replacement via overnight shipping, and not gotten off the phone until I did (polite or not.) I mean at that point the story was bad but not absolutely horrible, considering that the original rep probably meant for the replacement to be sent out sooner.

I understand that you had a custom-built machine, but personally I would've just taken whatever stock machine is closest, and add later (of course you can't add VRAM later.) If they had actually had the balls to refuse overnighting me a replacement, that might have been enough for me to swear off Apple too.

I don't think actually asking for free stuff will really get you much (with any company.) I don't blame you for asking, but it's like first you tell them this is really important because it's for your work and travel, and then say "well if you give me an iPod I'll feel better..."

I think the main issue is how they could've improved your service during the whole ordeal, and not whether they give you free stuff at the end. I've gone through similar situations with other companies, and make-up type gifts are usually not very substantial.

[StealthRider]

Since when does OS X have a "Safe Mode"? I smell a troll. Not only that, but the Tiger kernel panic window is black, is it not, rather than the white he showed?

[Sun Baked]

Since when does OS X have a "Safe Mode"? I smell a troll. Not only that, but the Tiger kernel panic window is black, is it not, rather than the white he showed?Since OS X v 10.2, it is the OS X equivalent of OS 9s booting with the extensions off.

Matter of fact, it's the same key to activate. Hold shift key after bong on boot-up.

Does a couple of other things besides only running the base Apple kernal extensions, like performing a directory check and disabling all fonts but the System fonts in 10.4

[Og Oggilby]

Wow, this thread is depressing. I am waiting for a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz/1gb/100gb/128mb vram to arrive that I ordered on the 23rd. I was pretty excited about getting it since I have never owned a laptop and am a longtime PC guy. Now I am starting to think that I made a huge mistake by orderinging a mac and I don't even have one yet. I don't think I can cancel or return it since it is a custom order using the educational discount - at least according to Apple's web site about custom returns - since it has shipped already. BTW, I wasn't too happy reading about that no-return policy in the fine print after the order was in production. I'm not sure that it is even legal.

Is there anyone that has ordered a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz from Apple and not had any problems? If so, I could use some cheering up...

[IJ Reilly]

Wow, this thread is depressing. I am waiting for a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz/1gb/100gb/128mb vram to arrive that I ordered on the 23rd. I was pretty excited about getting it since I have never owned a laptop and am a longtime PC guy. Now I am starting to think that I made a huge mistake by orderinging a mac and I don't even have one yet. I don't think I can cancel or return it since it is a custom order using the educational discount - at least according to Apple's web site about custom returns - since it has shipped already. BTW, I wasn't too happy reading about that no-return policy in the fine print after the order was in production. I'm not sure that it is even legal.

Is there anyone that has ordered a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz from Apple and not had any problems? If so, I could use some cheering up...

Hey Og! Do I get any extra points for being probably the only person around here to know the source of your screen name?

Made my day. :D

[Mechcozmo]

Since when does OS X have a "Safe Mode"? I smell a troll. Not only that, but the Tiger kernel panic window is black, is it not, rather than the white he showed?

You can get kernel panics? I thought those were only in museums...

:p ;)

[AdamR01]

Since when does OS X have a "Safe Mode"? I smell a troll. Not only that, but the Tiger kernel panic window is black, is it not, rather than the white he showed?

Well then I smell an even bigger troll because that looks like a kernel panic message and OS X does have a "safe mode".

[bousozoku]

Everyone says apple service is the best but I deal extensively with apple and IBM (yeah I know they don't make them anymore lenovo does) and I must say IBM has blown apple completely out of the water in regards to service. You only get good service with apple if you buy the applecare protection plan. Without it they treat you like crap. IBM gives you the same respect whether your computer has a 1yr warranty or a 3 yr. I have also a T42p and it is the best machine out there, with the exception that it runs XP but that could change with the intel version of OS X. YEAH!

Some people have better luck than others with IBM's service. I've been associated with IBM from the midrange machines on down to their small UNIX workstations and PCs.

The last time I worked with IBM on a PC problem, they had sent out a new $6000 (the big boss') machine with the wrong manual as well as the software modem being at the wrong level for the DSP. It took 5 support people/calls to finally realise the problem, which initially was that the modem wouldn't dial because it wouldn't open the phone line.

[Chrispy]

Wow, this thread is depressing. I am waiting for a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz/1gb/100gb/128mb vram to arrive that I ordered on the 23rd. I was pretty excited about getting it since I have never owned a laptop and am a longtime PC guy. Now I am starting to think that I made a huge mistake by orderinging a mac and I don't even have one yet. I don't think I can cancel or return it since it is a custom order using the educational discount - at least according to Apple's web site about custom returns - since it has shipped already. BTW, I wasn't too happy reading about that no-return policy in the fine print after the order was in production. I'm not sure that it is even legal.

Is there anyone that has ordered a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz from Apple and not had any problems? If so, I could use some cheering up...

I had a 1.67 powerbook just like the one you ordered and when it came there were problems with the screen. The replacement had problems too and now the 15" I have been using is going back becuase of an increasing screen brightness issue and marks on the right side of the screen that looks like someone tried to pry the plastic around the edge off for some reason. I too am getting very frustrated with this.

I thought maybe it was just the powermacs that sucked for me (4 bad in a row) but the powerbooks don't seem to be much better. The only macs I have used that are any good are the iBooks but unfortunately without hardware screen spanning, they are not much use to me at this point due to the work I am now being asked to do. For this reason, I too am considering going back to PC..... I just wish I could find one I like the look of........I would get a thinkpad T43 but I had one stolen from me over a year ago and I think it would just bring back bad memories. I have a 12" replacement on the way and it is due in Monday and if it has issues I'm calling it quits... but that is just me. Others have had great experiences with apple. Maybe some of us are just not meant to use apple and others are lol. Best of luck to you!

[eRondeau]

The fact is, when you buy any product online you are taking delivery sight unseen. Probably 90% of all Apple's shipments arrive in perfect working order. However when I bought my iBook, I knew I would only buy it from an Apple dealer. I had to drive an hour each way to do it, but they were more than willing to let it "cook" on their test bench for 24-hours before I took delivery. And it has worked flawlessly since day one.

You have just pin-pointed the very best reason to step outside and visit a real, honest-to-goodness Bricks-and-Mortar computer store when you're going to be dropping $3,000+. Mail order is fine for Christmas fruitcakes and kitchen utensils. Computers are a little more complicated.

[Chrispy]

You have just pin-pointed the very best reason to step outside and visit a real, honest-to-goodness Bricks-and-Mortar computer store when you're going to be dropping $3,000+. Mail order is fine for Christmas fruitcakes and kitchen utensils. Computers are a little more complicated.

Amen to that :)

[MacTruck]

You have just pin-pointed the very best reason to step outside and visit a real, honest-to-goodness Bricks-and-Mortar computer store when you're going to be dropping $3,000+. Mail order is fine for Christmas fruitcakes and kitchen utensils. Computers are a little more complicated.


Yep. I will never buy a powerbook online. Go to applestore, buy it, open it there and play with it. If there are any problems at all they will box it up for you and go in the back and get you another one. Bought 2 powerbooks and did that with both of them and had to switch both of them out.

[Chrispy]

Yep. I will never buy a powerbook online. Go to applestore, buy it, open it there and play with it. If there are any problems at all they will box it up for you and go in the back and get you another one. Bought 2 powerbooks and did that with both of them and had to switch both of them out.

I see from your sig that you have a BTO 15" right now. Did you have an arrangement with the store to have them send it there so you could check it out first? Just curious. Thanks

[GimmeSlack12]

If you work IT then I'm sure you have dealt with hundreds of computers. You've never seen a machine DOA???? Or much rather you are that upset about it??? Sheesh, go back to PC's , and find something to really bitch about.

[Chrispy]

If you work IT then I'm sure you have dealt with hundreds of computers. You've never seen a machine DOA???? Or much rather you are that upset about it??? Sheesh, go back to PC's , and find something to really bitch about.

Actually, having worked as a service technician for 2 years, I can tell you that I have never seen a failure rate on PCs like I have seen on mac. Also, I have owned many PCs in the past and not one of them was DOA. Apple's quality control is horrible.... period. If you try to say that it isn't then you are just turning an ignorant eye to the situation.

[MacTruck]

I see from your sig that you have a BTO 15" right now. Did you have an arrangement with the store to have them send it there so you could check it out first? Just curious. Thanks


Its not a BTO. Apple sells them configured like this. Its called the 15" max or something lame like that. Originally had the $2299 version but swapped it for the fully loaded max one and paid the difference.

[Chrispy]

Its not a BTO. Apple sells them configured like this. Its called the 15" max or something lame like that. Originally had the $2299 version but swapped it for the fully loaded max one and paid the difference.

No kidding! I called the Apple store in Indianapolis when I bought mine over the summer and they described that max model. They said the only upgrades to it were the ram and the HD up to 100GB. I actually directly asked about the 128VRAM and they said they never sell them in a store with 128. Are you sure your unit has 128VRAM? If so then I was misinformed by the apple store folk :mad:

[MacTruck]

No kidding! I called the Apple store in Indianapolis when I bought mine over the summer and they described that max model. They said the only upgrades to it were the ram and the HD up to 100GB. I actually directly asked about the 128VRAM and they said they never sell them in a store with 128. Are you sure your unit has 128VRAM? If so then I was misinformed by the apple store folk :mad:


Yeah, you were misinformed. It definately has the 128mb vram.

[Chrispy]

Yeah, you were misinformed. It definately has the 128mb vram.

Well now if that don't just bake my noodle!!! Stupid employees... and you can't just peg this one on Apple either. After working at Best Buy for awhile I can attest to the fact they will hire ANYONE and put them in computers. Sad... so sad!

[MacTruck]

Well now if that don't just bake my noodle!!! Stupid employees... and you can't just peg this one on Apple either. After working at Best Buy for awhile I can attest to the fact they will hire ANYONE and put them in computers. Sad... so sad!


Its amazing to me people that sell stuff and know nothing about them. Goes for cars, computers etc.

[Chappers]

A noob comes on - bashes Apple and suddenly we become an 'Lets bash a Mac site' - coooool.

I think I'll get a PC now because my Mac is obviously crap as I'd suspected all along. And I want a free iPod, even though I already have one.

[CelticBhoy]

The general consensus of opinion seems to be to ditch the mac and go back to the pc, although do this at your peril !

[untamedhysteria]

as reading the first post the op made, i can understand your situation with being really upset. but do you actually remember the Windows world and are you prepared to even go back to that ungodly horror? as others have mentioned, call apple and speak kindly and explain in detail what has happened, but don't make comments like "well i'm just going back to Windows!", as this will just make them care less in helping you. being kind and explaining the problems you are having will definately make sincerity work for you...any businesses i've called that gave me back products/service have given me only good support because i was kind and wanting to work this out. and, don't expect to get free stuff because you had a bad product, this is just silly.

commenting on the letter you wrote to them, that was just unexcusable. do you really expect them to care? especially now? companies are companies, and there to make money...not to care whether you are mad and in anger decide to use another product when you comments to them are irrational. again, talking with a manager of the sales department will most certainly get you what you was orginally looking for, decent service and support--just as long as it isn't in rage.

i'm a technician, and have had a few disappointed customers. the ones that act in rage and yell at me or make threats, i basically tell them find someone else and i really don't care if they didn't like my service. but for the ones that have been kind and told me something was still wrong with their computers, i told them to bring it back, free of charge, and it'll be handled promptly, and i appoligize for the inconvience...and in that way, i still have their business and they were happy as well. in this example, you should see why people here are telling you to speak kindly...it's gets you farther ahead with what you are needing, and in the end can make you feel like a better person (in my belief anyways).

[Og Oggilby]

The fact is, when you buy any product online you are taking delivery sight unseen. Probably 90% of all Apple's shipments arrive in perfect working order. However when I bought my iBook, I knew I would only buy it from an Apple dealer. I had to drive an hour each way to do it, but they were more than willing to let it "cook" on their test bench for 24-hours before I took delivery. And it has worked flawlessly since day one.

You have just pin-pointed the very best reason to step outside and visit a real, honest-to-goodness Bricks-and-Mortar computer store when you're going to be dropping $3,000+. Mail order is fine for Christmas fruitcakes and kitchen utensils. Computers are a little more complicated.

So the answer to my question "Is there anyone that has ordered a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz from Apple and not had any problems?" is that I shouldn't buy from Apple online. Or is it that I have a 90% chance of getting one that works when it arrives. That is amazing. I have purchased 5 home PC's in the last 15 years online and 3 more for work (also PC's) and I have had no problems with any of them. Most were workstation class systems that you can't buy at your local Bricks-and-Mortar computer store. The Powerbook I just ordered wasn't available at my local Apple store - unless I bought the max version and tossed the ram (2x512mb) out so that I could put 2gb in.
:eek:

[Og Oggilby]

Hey Og! Do I get any extra points for being probably the only person around here to know the source of your screen name?

Made my day. :D

15 points for you IJ ;)

"Just looking for loopholes." - WC Fields, reading the Bible on his deathbed.

[iWillard]

Is there anyone that has ordered a Powerbook 15" 1.67ghz from Apple and not had any problems? If so, I could use some cheering up...

Yep....

|
V

[iWillard]

Its not a BTO. Apple sells them configured like this. Its called the 15" max or something lame like that.

"Ultimate" :D

[iWillard]

The Powerbook I just ordered wasn't available at my local Apple store - unless I bought the max version and tossed the ram (2x512mb) out so that I could put 2gb in.
:eek:

If you upgrade the RAM right when you buy it, Apple gives you credit for the RAM that's in the machine that they take out so it's the same price as it is online BTO....

[ifjake]

yeah sometimes to me it seems as though with Apple computers, it takes the software problems of Windows machines and replaces it with hardware problems. nevertheless i would say buy AppleCare and use it. when i have had problems i have had them resolved within a week, or even like 3 or 4 days, which is actually pretty amazing. only now am i having to think about getting a replacement, and as long as i've had my machine, it might mean getting quite an upgrade. when it comes down to it, i can't really complain.

to me the difference between the annoyances of computing on a Mac and on a PC is that on a Mac you might experience an inconvenience that lasts a week and then is fine. But on a PC, every day you're almost guaranteed hassles in just normal stuff, and although they can be avoided now-a-days, the steps to do so are a pain in themselves.

i recently just helped my little sister get her computer situated on her college network. she has a Dell which i don't blame her for getting after witnessing some of the hardware problems that i've had. while i can handle the whole service and support process, i don't think she should have to, and campus computer technicians would be able to service a Dell much more readily than an Apple. but what struck me was all the crap i had to do to get this thing up and running. 2 different kinds of spyware programs, virus protection that seemed to be made up of 3 different apps, a whole slew of networking things. while our networks are different, it is still remarkably less of a hassle to get my powerbook hooked up and running, and while there may be calls for me to get a little more technical and into my computer, it's relatively easy to figure out where you need to go and what you need to do. (i'm thinking of that network setup utility thing - really handy).

so it might be something of a risk to go for an Apple, but really any of the pain you might experience is temporary. the rest of the time it works so well i don't really think anything of it. computing almost feels natural on a Mac.

[MacTruck]

"Ultimate" :D


Yeah. Thats it.

[IJ Reilly]

15 points for you IJ ;)

"Just looking for loopholes." - WC Fields, reading the Bible on his deathbed.

Only 15? Suffering sciatica!

I register all of my software to Mahatma Kane Jeeves.

[Og Oggilby]

If you upgrade the RAM right when you buy it, Apple gives you credit for the RAM that's in the machine that they take out so it's the same price as it is online BTO....

Apparently the 2 people I spoke to at the Apple store didn't know that. Had they mentioned the credit, I would have purchased my Powerbook at the Apple store. To be fair the store has only been open for 2-3 weeks so they are still in learning mode.

[Og Oggilby]

Only 15? Suffering sciatica!

I register all of my software to Mahatma Kane Jeeves.

15 more for "Suffering sciatica" ;)

[Chrispy]

OK now I'm pissed! I have had iMovie crash on me twice today out of nowhere. I was trying to save it after the first time it crashed and THAT made it crash... grrr!!!!!

[MacVM]

OK now I'm pissed! I have had iMovie crash on me twice today out of nowhere. I was trying to save it after the first time it crashed and THAT made it crash... grrr!!!!!

What comp are you on, if your ibook is sold and the pb is on its way?

[Marlon_JBT]

I've never experienced or personally heard of any hardware problems on any Mac.

Let's go through what my PowerBook has been through...

Keyboard : Milk
Hard Drive : Drop
Combo Drive : Warped Disc, wouldn't eject, either it, or I wrecked the eject mechanism, so now I have to help it, with a paper clip. It, however, worked fine before I put that disc in there. :mad:

I've got a friend who's got an eMac. It was an upgrade from her Bondi Blue iMac. They also have a 2nd gen iMac in the house. No problems out of any of them.

Any failure on my PowerBook has all been my fault. :)

I hope some good comes out of the situation, OP!

[Mechcozmo]

Its amazing to me people that sell stuff and know nothing about them. Goes for cars, computers etc.

I've had a guy tell me, while looking at the iBook at Best Buy, that it was totally virus-free computer. Then he said that there are a lot of virus programs for the Mac, like Norton, Virex, etc. I asked him why I needed virus protection. He said, "Well, being virus-free, it is a major target for virus writers."

:eek:

[Chrispy]

What comp are you on, if your ibook is sold and the pb is on its way?

I'm still using the 15" that goes back in the mail tomorrow to amazon. It works if it is hooked to an external just fine so it is holding me over. Amazon was nice enough to ship the replacement and let me wait to send back the old unit. However, if they don't see Mr. 15" in 30 days then I get charged for my replacement too haha. I think the crashing may be related to the lack of ram... i'm still at 512 on this powerbook as I never bothered to add my 1 gig stick to it.

[MacTruck]

I've had a guy tell me, while looking at the iBook at Best Buy, that it was totally virus-free computer. Then he said that there are a lot of virus programs for the Mac, like Norton, Virex, etc. I asked him why I needed virus protection. He said, "Well, being virus-free, it is a major target for virus writers."

:eek:




HA HA HA. Had almost the same exact conversation at the apple store when I got my kids Mac mini. He boasted about the mac minis lack of viruses and then proceded to sell me antivirus software. I said what you said and he said the same thing as your guy. Thats funny.

Antivirus software causes more problems than if fixes. I never use it on any mac.

[GimmeSlack12]

Actually, having worked as a service technician for 2 years, I can tell you that I have never seen a failure rate on PCs like I have seen on mac. Also, I have owned many PCs in the past and not one of them was DOA. Apple's quality control is horrible.... period. If you try to say that it isn't then you are just turning an ignorant eye to the situation.

I do believe you, but in the same sense, I've never seen very few DOA Macs (over 10 years of Mac experience). I guess all I can is you have bad luck with Macs, which no one can help. Sorry.

[MacTruck]

I do believe you, but in the same sense, I've never seen very few DOA Macs (over 10 years of Mac experience). I guess all I can is you have bad luck with Macs, which no one can help. Sorry.


I sold macs and Dells back in 1995 in college and the Dells failure rate was 1 in 3. The macs failure rate was 1 in 15. That was in 1995. Today I think it has turned around. I believe the failure rate for computers now is even across the board with ofcourse emachines taking a huge lead in horrible hardware. All these machines are made overseas now, probably by the same manufacturer.

[Og Oggilby]

Got my Powerbook last night. I played with it for a couple hours and liked it a lot! I'm a MAC/OSX newbie and it's also my first notebook.

The good:
Nice packaging. Real nice.
Looks great. Not at all PC like, very clean and uncluttered.
Everything works so far as I can tell.

The bad:
The notebook doesn't sit flat (case warped slightly?). I checked it on multiple surfaces (including a glass table). It's not real bad but it is annoying considering what the thing cost. I don't notice it when typing, etc.
One stuck pixel in the middle of the screen.

BTW, it gets hot on the bottom in the rear, but not as hot as I was expecting from reading forum messages thought I wasn't stressing it out too much. The pad and palm rests didn't get hot at all while I was playing with it.

Will the case flatten out from the heat? I read a message that someone had a stuck pixel that started working after a few days use. Is that true, or is a bad pixel always a bad pixel? I'm not sure if I should call Apple Care on these things or not.

Any suggestions? Thanks... :confused:

[geese]

Apparently the 2 people I spoke to at the Apple store didn't know that. Had they mentioned the credit, I would have purchased my Powerbook at the Apple store. To be fair the store has only been open for 2-3 weeks so they are still in learning mode.

The Apple bloke I spoke to in the London store didnt seem to know this. There are alot of dunces in that shop, I'm sad to say.

[hob]

The Apple bloke I spoke to in the London store didnt seem to know this. There are alot of dunces in that shop, I'm sad to say.
Harsh beans man, you can't expect everyone in the store to know about everything. If I was working there I could tell you a lot about Rev. B 12" Powerbooks, PowerMac G5's... iPods... That's about it really... I'm sure i'd be trained to a certain degree but to know EVERYTHING inside out... i dunno

Anyway, back on topic - I think Apple's build quality is shipping. The first machine I had was an iBook G3, built in Taiwan. Logic board problem. Infact, if you check this lovely thread:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=144010

you'll notice 100% of my machines have needed servicing!

Ahhh well

[AmbitiousLemon]

From Consumer reports:


Based on more than 69,000 desktop (73,000 laptop) computers purchased new from 2000 to 2004. Data were standardized to eliminate differences linked to age and use.

Repairs and serious problems:

Desktops:

* Apple: 12%
* Sony: 16%
* Dell: 17%
* eMachines: 19%
* IBM: 20%
* HP: 21%
* Compaq: 21%
* Gateway: 24%

Laptops:

* Toshiba: 16%
* Apple: 16%
* IBM: 17%
* Sony: 17%
* Dell: 17%
* HP: 19%
* Gateway: 21%
* Compaq: 21%


And from a new survey from the University of Michigan:

Apple retained its top ranking with an 81% satisfaction rate, flat with 2004 and above the PC-group average of 74%. Apple's rating has been on the upswing since 2002, the first year it rolled out its flat-panel iMac desktop PC and one year after it introduced its first iPod.

Dell's rating slipped to 74% this year from 79% in 2004. That level marked the lowest rating for Dell since 1998

Hewlett-Packard-branded products received a 73% rating, up from 71% in 2004, and Compaq-branded products from H-P dropped to a 67% rating from 69% in 2004. In 2000, two years before H-P bought Compaq, Compaq's rating was 71%.

Gateway's rating was 72%, down from 74% last year.

This is the 10th year of the survey, with 8,100 people participating in the most recent PC survey. All of the data were collected during the second quarter.

So for all the people suggesting that things are better on the wintel side of the fence -- um you are wrong, very very wrong. As one poster noted, on the wintel side of things its a race to the bottom in terms of quality and service.

That said, some people have bad luck. Apple isn't at 100% satisfaction or 0% failure rate, and it always seems that when you have one problem you are more likely to have more. The best way to handle this is to simply maintain a respectful demeanor when dealing with customer service (true of any company). As others have noted, this problem was probably made significantly worse by the poor attitude of the thread starter.

[beatle888]

Got my Powerbook last night. I played with it for a couple hours and liked it a lot! I'm a MAC/OSX newbie and it's also my first notebook.

The good:
Nice packaging. Real nice.
Looks great. Not at all PC like, very clean and uncluttered.
Everything works so far as I can tell.

The bad:
The notebook doesn't sit flat (case warped slightly?). I checked it on multiple surfaces (including a glass table). It's not real bad but it is annoying considering what the thing cost. I don't notice it when typing, etc.
One stuck pixel in the middle of the screen.

BTW, it gets hot on the bottom in the rear, but not as hot as I was expecting from reading forum messages thought I wasn't stressing it out too much. The pad and palm rests didn't get hot at all while I was playing with it.

Will the case flatten out from the heat? I read a message that someone had a stuck pixel that started working after a few days use. Is that true, or is a bad pixel always a bad pixel? I'm not sure if I should call Apple Care on these things or not.

Any suggestions? Thanks... :confused:


exchange it. the pixel would drive me crazy. one of the rubber feet on the bottom of the computer might be missing causing it to sit uneven, if not you got a perfect reason to exchange it. it should be perfect. mine is.

[kalisphoenix]

Try the pixelmurder thing for the stuck pixel.

[madmaxmedia]

Try the pixelmurder thing for the stuck pixel.

What's that? I googled, but couldn't find...

[kalisphoenix]

It's a video file that flashes a screen that's all red, then one that's all green, then one that's all blue, over and over and over again.

http://itasor.com/pixelmurder.MP4 (from another thread)

Right-click and save as, don't left-click or you'll have a very annoying amount of gibberish in your browser window.

[Chrispy]

My issue with Apple is, while the computer may not be completely DOA, you see all too often people getting machines with some type of minor defect. It seems that the dead and stuck pixel issue is getting to be more and more of a problem. The thing is, when they do surveys for dead computers or ones that need to be serviced, the computers with dead of stuck pixel(s) sometimes slip through the cracks since Apple does not consider this a defect. Dell, on the other hand, DOES consider even 1 dead pixel a defect and will exchange the machine. This generosity on Dell's part, when looking at just numbers, can make it seem like Dell has more bad computers when all they are doing is giving customers better service (most of the time....) I know this is an apple forum and I love it for that reason. I just think you have to be realistic too when looking at the way things are. Do I own an Apple at the moment?... No, I own a Dell currently becuase it is more compatible with my school... will I buy a powerbook after the updates?... you are damn right I will! If it has a problem I will just fight to get an exchange until I get one that works. OS X is just that good and I could not see myself using any other portable computer but an Apple.

[bousozoku]

I've been more than satisfied with my refurbished PowerBook. I had read about so many problems that I didn't want a new machine. I wanted one that had the major problems repaired.

My thinking has been rewarded several times from what I've read. I feel sorry for anyone getting a new machine that has major hardware troubles.

[madmaxmedia]

The thing is, when the do surveys for dead computers or ones that need to be
serviced, the computers with dead of stuck pixel(s) sometimes slip through the
cracks since Apple does not consider this a defect. Dell, on the other hand,
DOES consider even 1 dead pixel a defect and will exchange the machine. This
generosity on Dell's part, when looking at just numbers, can make it seem like
Dell has more bad computers when all they are doing is giving customers better service (most of the time....)

That might be true (about the statistical thing regarding dead pixels.) But, Apple ranks much higher in customer satisfaction surveys. If dead pixel computers counting as defects or not really had a significant impact on the defect rate numbers, it would have been reflected in the customer satisfaction numbers.

As it stands, Apple stands significantly higher than all the other makers. So overall, even taking into account a legitimate gripe about dead pixels, Apple is providing better overall experience than Dell, etc.

[Chrispy]

Well also keep in mind that it may be easier to have more "satisfied" customers when you are a much much much smaller company. I'm not saying that Apple is horrible but for the size I would think they could do better. Some people just get really burned by Apple customer service. I have personally never had a bad experience with Dell but have had many with Apple. However, to be fair within the last 3 months or so, my dealings with Apple support has been much much better than it was prior. I must say if they keep up with this type of service then I will have to agree that they have superior service. Non-the-less, Dell does a great job of support consider the number of customers they have.

[madmaxmedia]

Well also keep in mind that it may be easier to have more "satisfied" customers when you are a much much much smaller company. I'm not saying that Apple is horrible but for the size I would think they could do better. Some people just get really burned by Apple customer service. I have personally never had a bad experience with Dell but have had many with Apple. However, to be fair within the last 3 months or so, my dealings with Apple support has been much much better than it was prior. I must say if they keep up with this type of service then I will have to agree that they have superior service. Non-the-less, Dell does a great job of support consider the number of customers they have.

Keep in mind Apple is the 3rd or 4th largest computer maker in the world, larger than most all of those other computer makers that they beat in those surveys.

It's unfortunate if you have a bad experience with Apple, but you're really making no sense in your attempts to naysay statistical information. I'm not even saying Dell has bad service (have never dealt with them), but on the whole people are more satisfied with Apple (at this point in time.) That's really all there is to say.

[Chrispy]

Keep in mind Apple is the 3rd or 4th largest computer maker in the world, larger than most all of those other computer makers that they beat in those surveys.

It's unfortunate if you have a bad experience with Apple, but you're really making no sense in your attempts to naysay statistical information. I'm not even saying Dell has bad service (have never dealt with them), but on the whole people are more satisfied with Apple (at this point in time.) That's really all there is to say.

I never said people were not happy with Apple. It just seems that when Apple gives someone the shaft that they really stick it to them. I still say Apple has work to do on getting better quality control over their products and I know many many people on this forum alone will agree to that.

Also, apple may the the 3 or 4th largest computer company but they still only hold about 5% of the total computer marketshare. An eweek.com article does point out that of a group surveyed, 19% said they are likely to switch to Apple. This is a very promising number and I look forward to this day. I just hope Apple can get their quality control, policies and shipping times for BTOs up to speed as well. If not, they will have a hard time playing with the "big boys".

[bug]

So for all the people suggesting that things are better on the wintel side of the fence -- um you are wrong, very very wrong. As one poster noted, on the wintel side of things its a race to the bottom in terms of quality and service.


I'm not disputing the numbers in that report, and I will concede that it is likely that Apple has a lower failure rate then other manufacturers. There is one thing that isn't mentioned there, and it may not be an option for everyone, but for me - I build my PCs. They almost never fail, and if they do I can usually replace the failed part for very little. Usually it is just a hard drive that has met its time to die after 3 or four years, or a power supply that needs swapping out. In either case its about a $100 fix. Yes the drives in Macs are the same, but if a motherboard goes or a powersupply it is easily twice as much to replace then on a PC. I have also had much experience with IBM laptops (which probably are no good anymore), which I have never seen any problems with.

In our home we have had a 50% failure rate with Apple products. Most of the time when the failure occurs we end up feeling burned by Apple. For example, a G4 iBook recently died and was just out of warranty. Cost to fix? $800. Not even worth it, so it is a 14 month old paper weight. Apple has no obligation to fix it, and they certainly made sure we knew that. We had an iPod die that was within warranty and Apple charged us a $50 'processing fee' to fix it, even though it was covered. I think that is pretty bad. We were also victims of the G3 iBook logic board issue, and have had many other problems. Maybe for the G4 iBook we should have purchased AppleCare, but that increases the cost of the product by about 25% for that iBook, and thus makes it a much less attractive buy. I did get it for my powerbook though as the percentage cost increase was much smaller.

During the same period I have had issues with my BenQ projector. They were much nicer to deal with then Apple and swapped the product out with a brand new unit the first time, and then the second time replaced it with the next model up even though it was no longer covered by the 'hot swap' portion of the warranty. The key mainly is that Apple made us feel like peons and BenQ made us feel like important customers.

Now, I do believe that Apple makes good products and I continue to buy them, but I do understand why some people from the PC world feel that things are rough on this side. Certainly Dell computers have a high failure rate, but high end custom PCs don't. After doing IT for an ecommerce company and building maybe 150 of them, we had a 24 month failure rate of maybe 5%.

I will be more interested in seeing the failure rates from 2003-2005 when those numbers are available. I have a feeling we will see a decline in reliability and satisfaction. Maybe I'll be wrong, but we can wait and see.

[Chrispy]

I will be more interested in seeing the failure rates from 2003-2005 when those numbers are available. I have a feeling we will see a decline in reliability and satisfaction. Maybe I'll be wrong, but we can wait and see.

I agree that the failure rate will probably have increased and customer satisfaction ratings will have dropped some. However, I'm sure they may be true for all companies as computers are getting cheaper and cheaper. It should be interesting to see what comes of the updated figures.

Oh, and I want to thank madmaxmedia for a fun discussion last night haha. There is nothing I enjoy more than getting two differing sides out for people to see, as it is the very reason I frequent macrumors over other sites. Thank you for the intelligent and well thought-out posts :)

[bug]

I agree that the failure rate will probably have increased and customer satisfaction ratings will have dropped some. However, I'm sure they may be true for all companies as computers are getting cheaper and cheaper. It should be interesting to see what comes of the updated figures.

I agree with that.

...I also just felt I might point out that Toshiba laptops have the same failure rate as Apple's and their Tecras (maybe all, but the Tecras are the ones I care about) have a three year warranty standard.

Now please keep in mind here that I own a powerbook, and paid about $1000 more for it then I would have for a Tecra, so don't get the idea that I'm anti-Apple. I'm very pro-Apple. I'm sure my PC friends would think I'm a zealot - but I'm just trying to bring a balanced conversation here ;) I like to imagine I am platform agnostic :p

[madmaxmedia]

We had an iPod die that was within warranty and Apple charged us a $50 'processing fee' to fix it

That makes no sense (on Apple's part.) Was there any extenuating circumstances? I've never heard of others having to go through this, and would be pretty pissed if they tried to pull that on me.

My 40GB iPod just died (also under warranty,) and it took me 5 minutes at the Apple store to arrange a free replacement.

I don't think anyone will claim Apple has perfect products and support, and they do have areas in which they could improve on (in both support and hardware.) But anyone's individual problems, while still relevant (especially if you had to pay $50 to fix an in-warranty iPod!), are statistically insignificant compared to the overall defect and satisfaction rates.

If anything, Apple's lead in these areas would only increase if they worked out these areas. I think their hardware has gotten better though, the current notebooks for example don't have any significant design defects (not that that's saying a whole lot.)

One thing that is likely relevant is that it's much easier to support a vertical platform with integrated hardware and software. Many of the support and defect issues you may find with other makers may have to do with the myriad of different components they have, and Windows being able to consistently run everything. For example, my brother-in-law just bought a HP notebook and couldn't get the built-in Wifi to work. He spent a lot of time on phone support with HP, who told him to contact the hardware vendor for the Wifi (even though it came with the computer), and also told him to call Microsoft...WTF??? Turns out I was able to solve his problem in about 5 minutes. It was easy, not a defect of any kind. But HP couldn't support its own products in their default configuration, that's pretty poor.

The downside to Apple's vertical integration is that they have a lot of work cut out for them in terms of designing all the pieces that go into its machines. They're not using someone else's mobo, so they have to do a lot of work to make sure it doesn't crap out (obviously they have had some problems there.) So the differences you see in the products from different companies does make sense to some degree, you can't have your cake and eat it too. But hopefully Apple will improve, and then we as customers will have the best of both worlds...

Is Apple small or large? I don't see how anyone can not consider Apple one of the big boys. They are by no means the biggest, but by almost any measure they are up there. I guess you can divide the market into 2 tiers, with Dell and HP in the top tier, but that's it. Big companies like IBM, Toshiba, Sony, etc. are in the next tier with Apple. Heck, Apple's market cap is half that of HP, which is pretty impressive considering just how much HP sells. What's stopping Apple from growing further has less to do with support and quality level of hardware, and more to do with software (OSmarket share and network effects), price points, and other issues.

The biggest big boy of all is of course Microsoft in terms of OS share, but that's not relevant to this discussion of computer makers.

[madmaxmedia]

Oh, and I want to thank madmaxmedia for a fun discussion last night haha. There is nothing I enjoy more than getting two differing sides out for people to see, as it is the very reason I frequent macrumors over other sites. Thank you for the intelligent and well thought-out posts :)

Likewise ;) It's nice to be able to discuss stuff reasonably w/o turning into flame bait...

[Chrispy]

Is Apple small or large? I don't see how anyone can not consider Apple one of the big boys. They are by no means the biggest, but by almost any measure they are up there. I guess you can divide the market into 2 tiers, with Dell and HP in the top tier, but that's it. Big companies like IBM, Toshiba, Sony, etc. are in the next tier with Apple. Heck, Apple's market cap is half that of HP, which is pretty impressive considering just how much HP sells. What's stopping Apple from growing further has very little to do with support and quality level of hardware, and more to do with software and other issues.

The biggest big boy of all is of course Microsoft in terms of OS share, but that's not relevant to this discussion of computer makers.

Apple is a big boy in a different and much more pleasing way than say .... Dell. While Dell is mostly focused on computer sales and just other things here and there, Apple's sales are are made up of so many different areas. For example, the iPod is Apple primary seller and it sparks people to look into buying their computers. Much like the iMac brought Apple back from the dead years go, the iPod is giving apple the attention it needs to start gaining ground.

I could not agree with you more that Microsoft is to blame for the small marketshare. However, Apple did beat out MS in the digital music realm so maybe the time is near when they will start to make significant headway with OS X over Windows.... especially if Vista ends up being less than impressive. Very exciting times ahead for sure.

[bug]

That makes no sense (on Apple's part.) Was there any extenuating circumstances? I've never heard of others having to go through this, and would be pretty pissed if they tried to pull that on me.
...
If anything, Apple's lead in these areas would only increase if they worked out these areas. I think their hardware has gotten better though, the current notebooks for example don't have any significant design defects (not that that's saying a whole lot.)


The iPod was over the initial 6 months where you get unconditional support but within the 1 year warranty, where you have to pay this fee to have it repaired. We called multiple times and complained our best, but this fee is the way it is and it is actually documented on their site if you try to file for a hardware fix for your iPod. Actually, I just looked it up, it's $40 - listed here:

http://www.apple.com/ca/support/ipod/service/

It's for 'shipping and handling' but I still think that is pretty cheesy.

I also disagree that apple doesn't have any significant design defects. The G3 iBook logic board issue was a catastrophe - people are getting them replaced, but some people have had to send theirs back 4 times and that is lost time being able to work with your laptop. There has also been an increase in the past month or two of posts related to G4 iBook logic board failures. I could link to them on Apple's support page, but they keep deleting any thread where people start talking about trying to organize to get actual numbers of units affected. Statistics are difficult for consumers to obtain in cases like this to support their claims. Yes, maybe everyone in the world with this problem has posted and that is a small percentage of actual users. I dunno - I just know we are pissed that our 14 month old laptop is useless.

Now, certainly other manufacturers probably have even more design defects. So all computers suck, Apple's just suck marginally less. 17% failure rate is unacceptable - even if it is the lowest in the industry. Of course, it is the consumer's fault for putting up with it! I bet failure rates for other products are much lower. Imagine if 17% of all the apples you ate were defective! ;)

But hey, here's a good link to offset my complaining:

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2005/02/08.8.shtml

[madmaxmedia]

That is pretty cheesy, I guess at least it's the official policy and not some weird circumstance where only you got charged. I'm actually surprised this hasn't gotten more attention.

I didn't even check the exact date on mine (I actually bought it secondhand from someone). But when I took it into the store they didn't charge me (and the receipt says zero charge), so I guess I might be within the 6 month period.

Regarding hardware defects, I said that current notebooks are relatively fine (by current I mean the generation now being sold in stores.) For sure they've had signficant problems in the past (which is why I mentioned the current line.) Again, to say our current products are basically free of design or manufacturing defects is not saying a whole lot, it should just be par for the course.

The iPod was over the initial 3 months where you get unconditional support but within the 1 year warranty, where you have to pay this fee to have it repaired. We called multiple times and complained our best, but this fee is the way it is and it is actually documented on their site if you try to file for a hardware fix for your iPod. Actually, I just looked it up, it's $40 - listed here:

http://www.apple.com/ca/support/ipod/service/

It's for 'shipping and handling' but I still think that is pretty cheesy.

I also disagree that apple doesn't have any significant design defects. The G3 iBook logic board issue was a catastrophe - people are getting them replaced, but some people have had to send theirs back 4 times and that is lost time being able to work with your laptop. There has also been an increase in the past month or two of posts related to G4 iBook logic board failures. I could link to them on Apple's support page, but they keep deleting any thread where people start talking about trying to organize to get actual numbers of units affected. Statistics are difficult for consumers to obtain in cases like this to support their claims. Yes, maybe everyone in the world with this problem has posted and that is a small percentage of actual users. I dunno - I just know we are pissed that our 14 month old laptop is useless.

Now, certainly other manufacturers probably have even more design defects. So all computers suck, Apple's just suck marginally less. 17% failure rate is unacceptable - even if it is the lowest in the industry. Of course, it is the consumer's fault for putting up with it! I bet failure rates for other products are much lower. Imagine if 17% of all the apples you ate were defective! ;)

But hey, here's a good link to offset my complaining:

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2005/02/08.8.shtml

[Azurael]

Unfortunately Apple no longer produces Macs in US factories. Nowadays they're built on the same assembly lines in Taiwan and China as PCs. Whether you buy a PC or a Mac you have roughly the same chance of it failing.

Actually, not that I'm saying this has to be everyone's opinion, but I'd much rather have a computer built by volume maufacturers in Taiwan, with reliable, proven assembly lines than by Apple themselves in the US. Wherever they're built, you'll get some that are unreliable/DOA and considering how many manufacturers parts are sourced from in modern computer systems, it's very unlikely that Apple's pre-shipment tests are entirely to blame.

(Macs here in the UK used to be built in Ireland :D)

[Chrispy]

That is pretty cheesy, I guess at least it's the official policy and not some weird circumstance where only you got charged. I'm actually surprised this hasn't gotten more attention.

I, too, am surprised this has not gotten more attention as it seems like a bogus policy. I had a bad iPod once but it was a bad bettery and I noticed it within a few weeks of owning it so I just got a new one.

[madmaxmedia]

Also, the grass is not that green on the other side either-

http://www.buzzmachine.com/?tag=dell
http://www.slate.com/id/2125297?nav=wp

Customer support these days comes in a distant third compared to generating profits (good if you're a shareholder), and providing lower prices to consumers (good for most customers.)

To be honest, I don't expect any company to provide much better support than any other. I do expect them to live up to their stated warranties of course, and not put me through too much hassle if I have a broken or defective product that is covered under warranty.