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View Full Version : North Korea, Iraq, and Terrorism vs U.S.A.


Fipher
Nov 23, 2002, 03:01 AM
Q1:Can the U.S.A. take on all three by themselves?
Q2:Could they do it with support, and who would the support be?
Q3:If they were to decide to take care of one at a time in what order would the problems be solved? Who is the what poses the biggest threat to the U.S. and allies out of the 3?

My answers:

Q1:No

Q2:Yes, if S. Korea, Japan, and Indonisia suported the U.S. with atleast millatary force, and China decided to stay out of it this time (because China would never join the U.S. and might defete the U.S. just as they had in th Korean War. Then meanwile for terrorism if Indonesia, all midle easter countrys, Great Britan, Grmany, and Russia all cooperated with the US and did everything they could to make looking for and taking out the Taliban and company they would be able to do it. And finally If all naboring countries of Iraq supported the U.S. by letting them make military bases on their land and if Russia Great Britan, and mabe Germany helped out with some money and/or troops the U.S. could easaly defete Iraq, if war did end up inevidable.

Q3: I would say that terrorism i the biggest threat, especially now that Binladen IS infact alive and has made a recorded adio threat against the U.S. I beleve finding him and the rest of his pals is #1 priority, neither N. Korea or Iraq have actually threatend the U.S. 2nd place is kind of hard to determine. Both countrys have fought the U.S. in actually blood shedding battle, they both have what in my opinion are evil governments in place, but the one thing that pulls my trigger closer to North Korea is that North Korea we actually KNOW that they have nucular weapons even though they agreed not to make any. Also, their people are starving and vreezing so much that they are fleeing their own country to China to seek food and better shelter. It would be goot to finally get rid the the North Korean Comunist government and finally join N.+S. Korea as one nation under a democratic government with Soul as the capital city. That way they would more easaly solve the food and energy problems that are in effect in the North Korea right now and Soul is already the capital city of South Korea and is close to the center of the Korean ponisula so that the capital would already be in the center of the nation. And lastly, take care of Iraq. Although they are giving in to all demands for inspection for weapons of mass distruction a reseme change is neede in Iraq. Sadam may be doing a very good job as being president for the economy in Iraq seems to be doing ok, but he is much to apressive. It is aperrent to me that he has threatend his people so much that they dare not vote againsts him, and even show great love and compation towards him, for fear of "disapearing". the same goes for even running against him. Anyone notice that not a single Iraqi dared run against him in the lates election? I find it very VERY hard to beleve that not a single person in the country wanted to be president of Iraq. Why? Because it IS human nature to want MORE POWER! Anyone anywhere in the world will say the same thing. It is illogical that in such a mass of people not 1 would want to run to be alected to be president. My father is reading a book by and Iraqi who had gone to school in the US to learn about nuclear technolagy so he could help his government back in Iraq to make Nuclear power plants, but when he whent back to Iraq the government forsed him to buigin work on Nuclear weapons. In it he tells a story about a mac who through a brik at his TV because Saddam was on it. his wife told on him and the man was sentenced to death and Sadam thanked her and rewarded her. I don't know how he rewarded her or any other detail about the book because I didn't read it, my dad just tol me a little about it.

So those are my answers to my questions, please give me your owns answers and resons to the questions so we can discuss more.

groovebuster
Nov 23, 2002, 05:43 AM
No comment... just the subject "North Korea, Iraq and Terrorism vs USA" is a joke. Did I miss something, or when did North Korea take action against the US by terroristic acts? Iraq is just another subject...

And no offense, but I never saw an american fellow with so many spelling mistakes in a short text like that... Even though English is not my mother-tongue, it really "hurts" to read all that crap.

Maybe you were drunk? Do yourself a favor then and don't write "in public". In case you are a dyslexic, I am sorry for you, but it's still not an excuse for posting so much crap about a subject like that into a public forum.

Regards,

groovebuster

atomwork
Nov 23, 2002, 07:00 AM
Texas belongs in the axe of evil too.

Ifeelbloated
Nov 23, 2002, 07:42 AM
Evil megalomaniac despot nations suck. I don't know about you but I am freaking sick and tired of all these religious fundamentalist pinheads. Jesus H. Christ. There I said it. I could go on and on but I am cutting myself short before I rail into a diatribe and get banned from these forums. Does anyone else feel fed up with all this? It's just going to go on and on. Einstein was right, "There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the first one.".

groovebuster
Nov 23, 2002, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
Evil megalomaniac despot nations suck.

Yes, they do... the problem is just, how is one defined? Are the USA less megalomaniac than countries like Iraq or North Korea? I don't think so... and that is the problem. Just different, but not better at all.

I don't know about you but I am freaking sick and tired of all these religious fundamentalist pinheads.

And they are tired of the ignorant capitalistic western world pinheads who substituted religion by worshipping money and have no respect for their traditions and beliefs... Like always everything depends on the point of view.

Who are we to call them pinheads? With our way of life very often we are 10x worse than them...

groovebuster

Ifeelbloated
Nov 23, 2002, 08:44 AM
I'm not saying that Americans are angels but come on, at least we have the Bill of Rights. We've come a long way, but we have a ways to go and socially we haven't measured up to the moral yardstick that we've laid out for ourselves. But I think America's strength is that we can figure it out as we go. I think the biggest problem in the future for us is the frightening corporatization of the landscape and their influence on Washington politics.
I agree though that the majority of Americans are gluttons. That's unfortunately the price of being such a mobile society. People want their big SUV's and super-sized burgers. I own a 93 Pontiac Sunbird with over 150,000 miles on it. Planning to get a 4 cylinder Honda to be easier on the gas. I've been thinking cost-effective for a long time now. That's a mantra of mine.

groovebuster
Nov 23, 2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
I'm not saying that Americans are angels but come on, at least we have the Bill of Rights.

I know you do... but it is only for citizen of the USA. "Unfortunately" 98% of the world are not. And do you really want to start a discussion about how the US treat/-ed people from other nations and countries when "national interests" were involved? Everybody who is no US citizen is a human being 2nd class. But actually I doubt that a discussion about all that makes sense...

We've come a long way, but we have a ways to go and socially we haven't measured up to the moral yardstick that we've laid out for ourselves. But I think America's strength is that we can figure it out as we go.

Like every other country you mean?

At the moment it seems as if a lot of US fellows lose the moral yardstick out of sight. Just an impression. To be full of yourself and prejudice is way easier than asking yourself if there are things also wrong with yourself and in your own country. Since last year the US media remind me sometimes of the german propaganda during WWII. I guess I don't need to explain that any further...

I think the biggest problem in the future for us is the frightening corporatization of the landscape and their influence on Washington politics.

That's capitalism. The power is where the money is. That will never change. At least not as long as the classical capitalism will exist. But also that is a totally different subject.

I agree though that the majority of Americans are gluttons. That's unfortunately the price of being such a mobile society.

Sorry, I can't follow... what does that has to do with a society being mobile? :confused:

People want their big SUV's and super-sized burgers. I own a 93 Pontiac Sunbird with over 150,000 miles on it. Planning to get a 4 cylinder Honda to be easier on the gas. I've been thinking cost-effective for a long time now. That's a mantra of mine.

Good for you. I think it is more a question of education than of anything else. It is a mirror of the society, how people reflect about themselves and their environment. And tell me, isn't it scary what you see? Is there any reason in particular to believe that people who treat their body and their environment like that are reasonable about treating even people in other parts of the world well?

Just think about it...

Regards,

groovebuster

daveg5
Nov 23, 2002, 07:02 PM
Maybe I am missing something, but I have a couple of questions

Where did Asama Bin Laden aquire his fortune?
Where were the majority of the terrorist from on 9-11?
Who finances terrorist Palenstinian Organizations more then anyone?
Why has that country never officially apolojized?
Why have the Bushes had personal financial dealings with the Bin ladens for so long?
why were his relatives given protection and safe passage home.

Do you have to be a terrorist to get invited to Bush's ranch?

Why wont the Saudi's let us use there bases to rid them of there enemy?
Why did we support Saddam more in the Iraq war while at the same time supporting Iran secretly?.
Who has used more weapons of Mass destruction then anyone on civilian populations i.e. Agent Orange, poisening entire Indian tribes, desimating the Buffalo population to starve them?
occuppying their land and then calling it are own and breaking one treaty agreement after another. who has used nucleur weapons to kill 100 of thousands more then once?

Who was not elected but appointed?
: hint its not Saddam.
Before we attack anyone , Saudi Arabia should be number one on the list.
and I dont mean for a ranch visit.
What gives us the right to overthrow a sovereign nation and put in our puppets simply because we think he may one day have weapons like we do, or is it simply to avenge an alleged assassination of someones dad?

So now every kid in a class room has a right to beat the living Hel! out of any classmate that they think may one day show agression to them.
And I guess God should have put us all in Hel! right away if he thought that any of us would ever sin.
Lets make a new list regime change and every country that may one day do us harm. why wait? Somehow Russia and China did not make the list even though the have nukes pointed at us this very minute.
So lets pick on the states we know we can defeat.
Its all a Joke Iraq would not play by our rules like the other puppet Staes, We could not bribe them like Russia, Pakinstan, France and others with money or China with the Olympics. So now we have to teach them a lesson.
This War is full of Bull Just like the Unelected Leaders who are pushing for it!!
nuff said

krossfyter
Nov 23, 2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
Evil megalomaniac despot nations suck. I don't know about you but I am freaking sick and tired of all these religious fundamentalist pinheads. Jesus H. Christ. There I said it. I could go on and on but I am cutting myself short before I rail into a diatribe and get banned from these forums. Does anyone else feel fed up with all this? It's just going to go on and on. Einstein was right, "There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the first one.".


Einstein also said " Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"..... whats my point? I dont know... maybe im trying to tie this into this violatile thread abstractly. :D

topicolo
Nov 24, 2002, 12:14 AM
All I can say is basically what has been repeated on the airwaves time and again: A US led attack of Iraq may set off the middle east and create more problems for western nations.

Remember, Osama bin Laden was a US ally until the US attacked Iraq the first time. He went ballistic and decided to kill Americans because of what he perceived (and it may be right too) to be a US caused subjugation of the Iraqi people.

What will happen if Iraq is attacked again? How would we know if an attack on Iraq would set off another maniac that becomes as bad, if not worse than bin Laden? I don't think anyone is going to enjoy another al-qaeda-like terrorist network.

topicolo
Nov 24, 2002, 12:16 AM
If anything, I think the US should be organizing a UN peacekeeper mission to silence the palestinian/israeli conflict. It's painfully obvious that they can't solve their problems by themselves, so the rest of the world should do it for them.

krossfyter
Nov 24, 2002, 12:21 AM
okay is there anyone on macrumors with a different set of views then the majority on here? like someone on the other side for a change? against the grain?


lol

job
Nov 24, 2002, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by topicolo
If anything, I think the US should be organizing a UN peacekeeper mission to silence the palestinian/israeli conflict. It's painfully obvious that they can't solve their problems by themselves, so the rest of the world should do it for them.

Oh yeah, we all know how effective the United Nations is... :rolleyes:

How the hell are a bunch of arguing ****head politicans going to stop a militant religious struggle that has existed since recorded history?

Face it people, the UN is not, repeat, not a ****ing world government. End of story.

job
Nov 24, 2002, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by topicolo
US caused subjugation of the Iraqi people.

Oh I'm sorry, I think we forgot about the Iraqi "subjugation [sic]" of the Kuwaitis.

A multinational coalition becomes an "American subjugation."

Heh.

That's the first time I've laughed all week.

edit:

Oh, do you mean economic sanctions which immediatly affect the general Iraqi populace? Hmmm...lets see...

Oh, those are UN regulated! Gee Golly Whiz! Imagine that!

Saddam himself is not affected by the sanctions either. He continues to live as a despotic tyrant while his people starve.

job
Nov 24, 2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by groovebuster
With our way of life very often we are 10x worse than them...

I have not seen too many educated women being stoned to death on the street. I don't see women who want a divorce being shunned in society and executed as well.

I can go on my street and still say things about my government that would get me shot in fundamental states.

I can go into a store and purchase anything I want. Why? Because I can.

I can walk around my neighborhood without fear of being shot with a 7.62*30 Soviet AK-47 round.

I don't have to worry about advocating civil rights, the promotion of which would get me a life sentence in a fundamentalist country.

Remind me again how our way of life is "10x worse."

groovebuster
Nov 24, 2002, 03:44 AM
There is one thing I learned over the years... and that is not to discuss with someone who is bittered or too emotional. Those people are blind to see the truth, to get the other side's arguments or to be self-critical.

I don't really know if you are just emotional or also bittered, but at the end it doesn't really make a difference. But for now I ignore what I learned over the years and will answer anyway.

You are not willing to look into the mirror... fine. That's your problem, even though it is very sad. You are just the perfect example of someone who is full of himself and doesn't know **** about other people. Your way of life is the only way to happiness and all the other people of the world are just stupid *******s. Your ignorance is your weakness.

Originally posted by hitman
I have not seen too many educated women being stoned to death on the street.

I don't see women who want a divorce being shunned in society and executed as well.

What does that have to do with the subject? Other cultures have other morals and values! In the US in some States sex before the age of 18 is illegal and you go to prison if it comes out. In your country they still have the death penalty. Very civilized... How high was the percentage again of people who got executed even they were not guilty? Do you want me to go on? I guess you got the point already...

I can go on my street and still say things about my government that would get me shot in fundamental states.

I wouldn't be too sure about that one. I remember times when they were witch-hunting communists in the USA... it's not that long ago. I am pretty sure it also depends on WHAT you say againts your government in which times. Try it it out, I bet you would be surprised! ;)

I can go into a store and purchase anything I want. Why? Because I can.

You do? OK! Then send your 16 y.o. son to buy a six-pack of beer and cigarettes for you at a gas-station! ... What? Why not? Or show me the coffee shop where you can buy Marihuana legally! Huh? You can't?

Anything you want, huh? ;)

I can walk around my neighborhood without fear of being shot with a 7.62*30 Soviet AK-47 round.

:D That was a good one! Last time I checked the USA were the western country with the highest rate of homocide in relation to the number of citizens...

Maybe you should watch the movie "Bowling for Columbine"? I found it very interesting, even though I knew already most of the stuff...

I don't have to worry about advocating civil rights, the promotion of which would get me a life sentence in a fundamentalist country.

The world is really that simple? Thank you for opening my eyes!

Since we are talking about civil rights... do you know the name Dmitry Sklyarov? Interesting case.

And thank God that my country has no oil and/or islamic majority. We would be a candidate to be invaded then because of "national interests". How many times the USA violated the civil rights of people in other nations because of those "national interests"? Maybe you should start counting, it will take you a while...

Remind me again how our way of life is "10x worse."

You really didn't get at all what my statement was about, right? What did I expect...? :rolleyes:

Even though I don't see any sense to tell you all that, just a few hints:

- wasting resources
- destroying environment for profit
- leading a luxury and wealthy life on the shoulders of the poor countries
- dictating the world trade with the power of money (poor stay poor, rich become richer)

I think that covers it pretty much. Everything else would be just a more detailed and refined description.

You know, the funny part is, that we all do those things every day in our little lifes again and again. We are part of it! Even I do! How many goods we couldn't even buy in a life-time, if the workers would get wages similar to ours. They would be just too expensive. How long the resources of the world would last, if all human beings would live in luxury like you and me? Just a few months! After that there would be nothing left of good old mother earth.
But some people are not even able to see that correlation. Are you one of them? I just can't believe how self-righteous a lot of peope are...

We are different, but we are not any better than "the others". We are just in the "lucky" position that we don't harm our neighbour across the street anymore, we do it to people half around the world. And not with guns and arms, but with economical power. Abstract enough to feel superior to the rest of the world and to hide behind the "human rights". It is nice that you live in freedom in your country. Too bad we make millions and billions of people live like animals just to safeguard our way of life, no matter what it costs. And if a country doesn't really "function" we declare it "national interests" and bomb it to stone-age, even though we just brought it into the position before, maybe even betrayed it and it's poeple... for profit!

The western culture is so fake and hypocrite. Do you really wonder that there are people who hate us for being like that?

I was very self-critical before, but since 9-11 I really started to understand a lot of stuff and to see it from a different point of view.

It's not only the others who have to change, it's both sides. If the western governments, especially the USA don't get that we will run into very bad times very soon...

groovebuster

job
Nov 24, 2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
You are not willing to look into the mirror... fine. That's your problem, even though it is very sad. You are just the perfect example of someone who is full of himself and doesn't know **** about other people. Your way of life is the only way to happiness and all the other people of the world are just stupid *******s. Your ignorance is your weakness.

Don't tell me what I have seen and experienced. I have lived in Europe and Asia and have encountered the dregs of humanity in the depths of poverty. I have seen squalor in my own country. My "ignorance" is that I don't force my ideals on anyone. In my previous post I stated my opinion and directed a simple question to you. I was not attempting to change the way you see America or the way you live your life or the values you believe in. As long as you don't force me to change my values, I don't care how you live or what you think.

"My" way is not the only option in life.

Have you ever lived in a fundamentalist country? Have you experienced the restrictions on your personal freedom.?

I have.

What does that have to do with the subject? Other cultures have other morals and values!

So you are advocating that women should not be educated and that they should not be treated as equals? Are we striving for equality and justice for everyone or not? Yes, other "cultures" have their own "morals" but the mass supression of females in a country is not associated with any moral code. Are you then encouraging the slaughter of women attempting to get an education?

Compare Egypt and Afganistan for a moment. Women have opportunities in Egypt and practice relative freedom; freedom I have personally witnessed. In previous decades Afgani women were stoned for even suggesting such freedom. And yet the two countries are based on the same "morals and values," correct? How can you condone such injustice.

In the US in some States sex before the age of 18 is illegal and you go to prison if it comes out.

Hmm...let me remind you of the democratic process. All legislation (i.e. laws) are passed according to the vote of the people. Yes, sex before the age of 18 is illegal, because the majority voted so.

Are we "10x worse off" just because we can't have kiddie sex?

In your country they still have the death penalty. Very civilized... How high was the percentage again of people who got executed even they were not guilty?

Are you saying that we execute innocent people? Heh. If you **** up, you pay the price. You conciously commit a murderous act, you deal with your actions and accept responsibility for what you have done.

But I digress.

We are discussing how the life is ten times worse in Western capitalist countries, not the civility of the death penalty.

In context, in many fundamentalist countries due process of law is dismissed in place of sham show trials. They execute you not because you have murdered anyone, they kill you in cold blood for merely expressing yourself.

I wouldn't be too sure about that one. I remember times when they were witch-hunting communists in the USA... it's not that long ago.

Ah yes, the age old story where anything you say against your country is anti-patriotic and borderline treason. Hmmm....lets see then. Does that mean when I said "**** Bill Clinton" a couple years ago that I should be thrown into jail? I don't think so.

I am pretty sure it also depends on WHAT you say againts your government in which times. Try it it out, I bet you would be surprised! ;)

I can say anything I want in my country about my country without fear of retribution.

You do? OK! Then send your 16 y.o. son to buy a six-pack of beer and cigarettes for you at a gas-station! ... What? Why not? Or show me the coffee shop where you can buy Marihuana legally! Huh? You can't?

You missed my point. I mentioned that I can buy anything I want because it is a capitalist system. In the context in which I wrote it, I wanted to focus on the lack of free, laizze-faire enterprise in these fundamentalist countries. The limitation of economic freedom and progress was my main point, not the purchase of pot.

And in regards to that...it's the law, voted and ruled on by the majority. See my other comments on democracy and consensual sex with minors..

Maybe you should watch the movie "Bowling for Columbine"? I found it very interesting, even though I knew already most of the stuff...

Ironically, Maryland, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the United States also has the highest death rate. Interestingly enough, states with concealed handgun permits have some of the lowest crime rates, capital and otherwise.

I can and will defend myself. You can call me anything you want, but I maintain that the ability to defend yourself is an inalienable right for all people.

Thank you for opening my eyes!

I'm not trying to change the way you think or the way you live your life. I merely wanted to hear your opinion on why we are worse off, nothing more nothing less.

Since we are talking about civil rights... do you know the name Dmitry Sklyarov? Interesting case.

The law that he was arrested under " says that if you crack a system meant to protect a copyright work, you go to jail; if you produce software for the purpose of cracking anti-circumvention measures, you go to jail."

He was arrested because he violated the law. End of story.

I'm interested to hear your opinion as to how a copyright law violates civil rights.

How many times the USA violated the civil rights of people in other nations because of those "national interests"?

Ever heard of Kosovo or Bosnia? Yeah, thought so.

Only two days drive away from Germany and European governments stood idle while thousands of Muslim refugees were being slaughtered.

Nothing was done.

Nothing.

The American and British coalition had the balls to do what was right. There was no oil, no gold, no real American interests in the region. How did we act out of "national interest?"

It was only after American airpower did the Europeans come in as "peacekeepers."

I will give the Germans credit. They did fulfil an excellent role as peacekeepers. But my point still stands. These are just some of the examples in which American intervined, but did not "violate" any "civil rights."

leading a luxury and wealthy life on the shoulders of the poor countries

Ever heard of the IMF?

dictating the world trade with the power of money (poor stay poor, rich become richer)

Sounds very similar to what Marx said.

Everything else would be just a more detailed and refined description.

I'd like to hear it. In all honesty, I am very interested in debating these topics/issues further. You are one of the few people here on MR that I can really debate with. ;) :p

Rower_CPU
Nov 24, 2002, 02:12 PM
I'd be surprised if you got a worthwhile response, hitman.

groovebuster has a history of running out on threads when he gets too much opposition.

That said, your post was one of the best formed arguments against his formulaic arguments that I've seen in a while. Good work. :)

topicolo
Nov 24, 2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by hitman


Oh yeah, we all know how effective the United Nations is... :rolleyes:

How the hell are a bunch of arguing ****head politicans going to stop a militant religious struggle that has existed since recorded history?

Face it people, the UN is not, repeat, not a ****ing world government. End of story.

The only reason the UN is so ineffective is because of countries like the united states undermining their authority by running around and policing people without multilateral support!

If the US wants to take initiative in solving the world's problems, why don't they go police the israelis and the palestinians?

The UN may not be a ****ing world government, but it is better than no international organization at all. Their job wouldn't be so hard if all of their member countries stopped putting their own interests ahead of others all the time.

topicolo
Nov 24, 2002, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I'd be surprised if you got a worthwhile response, hitman.

groovebuster has a history of running out on threads when he gets too much opposition.

That said, your post was one of the best formed arguments against his formulaic arguments that I've seen in a while. Good work. :)

What was the point of that Rower? Why don't you say something useful instead of kissing ass like that?

Rower_CPU
Nov 24, 2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by topicolo
What was the point of that Rower? Why don't you say something useful instead of kissing ass like that?

And that was any better? Give me a break.

I was saying I agreed with his post. Do I need to add another 40 lines to this page to get that point across? No.

How about this: "I agree."

Drink another Molson and lighten up, eh?

groovebuster
Nov 24, 2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I'd be surprised if you got a worthwhile response, hitman.

groovebuster has a history of running out on threads when he gets too much opposition.

I do...??? Maybe you could show me that history instead of telling fairy-tales? Interesting that the only thing you are able to do is to offend me indirectly with totally made up statements to question my credibility.

At least I don't need to suck up to someone else instead of having my own opinion... right? ;)

groovebuster

Rower_CPU
Nov 24, 2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
I do...??? Maybe you could show me that history instead of telling fairy-tales? Interesting that the only thing you are able to do is to offend me indirectly with totally made up statements to question my credibility.

Gladly...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=109284#post109284
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=111136#post111136
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=112903#post112903
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=12040&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

Here's the biggie:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=8083&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Now who's telling fairy tales? ;)

wdlove
Nov 24, 2002, 05:19 PM
The United States is after all the only superpower on Earth! The UN hates us. Majority of members are poor nations that want our stuff. Would you prefer the Kenndy & Clinton approach, extend welfare to the world!

groovebuster
Nov 24, 2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by hitman
Don't tell me what I have seen and experienced. I have lived in Europe and Asia and have encountered the dregs of humanity in the depths of poverty.

And still it doesn't seem that you have learned a lot. That's the impression you give.

I have seen squalor in my own country. My "ignorance" is that I don't force my ideals on anyone. In my previous post I stated my opinion and directed a simple question to you.

Do I force my ideals to anyone? I don't think so! You asked a question and you got your answer. The interesting part is, that you don't go into detail now to what I said, you just try to pull it onto a higher more abstract level to avoid answering the things I said. Nice try, but it doesn't work...

I was not attempting to change the way you see America or the way you live your life or the values you believe in. As long as you don't force me to change my values, I don't care how you live or what you think.

I never thought that you wanted to change me, as well as I didn't want to change you. You were asking and you got an answer in an open discussion. Your statement is pretty weak because now you tell "the audience" indirectly that you don't give a **** about the opinionof other people anyway. If all that is true, why you even participate in a discussion like that? You don't care about the opinion of other people? I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't even have answered. So what is this all about?

I am always open to constructive discussions, since that is the only way you can develop. Other opinions are the only reference for your own opinion. Only a fool would regret to listen to them.

"My" way is not the only option in life.

Then don't talk and act like it. Your tone is agressive and self-righteous.

Have you ever lived in a fundamentalist country? Have you experienced the restrictions on your personal freedom.?

Now you should give me a friggin' break!!! You ask that a german? You are kiddin' right?

I have.

So what? That makes you THE reference for anything on that subject? First, you don't know me and my background. Second, wisdom has nothing to do with the environmental conditions you lived in for a while. I don't even want to know why, where and how long you lived there, because it counts exactly nothing for that matter. It is narrow-minded to only accept opinions from people "who have been there"! Do I have to be a drug addict, before I can tell you that heroine is bad for you and your health? Do I have to be a killer before I can make a statement that using firearms is bad? What kind of logic is that?

So you are advocating that women should not be educated and that they should not be treated as equals? Are we striving for equality and justice for everyone or not? Yes, other "cultures" have their own "morals" but the mass supression of females in a country is not associated with any moral code. Are you then encouraging the slaughter of women attempting to get an education?

Now you are twisting my words... is that the only way out you can see now? I am really disappointed! In no word I advocated anything of the things mentioned above. Reread what I said before and try again.

Compare Egypt and Afganistan for a moment. Women have opportunities in Egypt and practice relative freedom; freedom I have personally witnessed. In previous decades Afgani women were stoned for even suggesting such freedom. And yet the two countries are based on the same "morals and values," correct? How can you condone such injustice.

Show me exactly where I condoned it? Don't put words into my mouth. It's such a poor technique and I expected more from you.

Hmm...let me remind you of the democratic process. All legislation (i.e. laws) are passed according to the vote of the people. Yes, sex before the age of 18 is illegal, because the majority voted so.

That was not the subject. The subject was the morals. But since you mention it... The vote of the people is just a mirror of the morals of the people. So what? For a lot of people in other countries that is prude and prison an exaggerated punishment for something like that...

Are we "10x worse off" just because we can't have kiddie sex?

You are really trying to be funny, huh? So far it didn't work... maybe you could at least start not to rip out my statements out of the context if you are are not able to understand them.

Are you saying that we execute innocent people? Heh. If you **** up, you pay the price. You conciously commit a murderous act, you deal with your actions and accept responsibility for what you have done.

Yes, you do! There are official statistics about how many people turned out to be innocent after they were executed during the last years. Just google a little bit and then come back to tell me what you found. Would you consider that "collateral dammage"?

I also believe that executing a person is wrong. No person has the right to take the life of someone else, also not as a punishment for committed crimes. Beside the risk that the person is wrongly accused, it is illogical also from the point of human rights. Human rights apply to everyone, no matter what the person did or not! They are universal, otherwise they are worth nothing. The moment I take an eye for an eye I put myself on the same level as the person who committed the crime. I don't feel like going too much into detail since I am pretty sure you know all the arguments by heart... you just don't accept them as valid.

A civilized society must have other methods to deal with criminals. An eye for an eye is stone-age!

And by the way... did I mention that the USA have the highest homocide rate of all western countries? Death penalty doesn't seem to work as a determent...

But I digress.

That's correct... ;)

groovebuster
Nov 24, 2002, 05:55 PM
We are discussing how the life is ten times worse in Western capitalist countries, not the civility of the death penalty.

You twist my words again! :rolleyes:

I didn't say IN western capitalist countries. I meant the consequences caused by the life-style we have.

In context, in many fundamentalist countries due process of law is dismissed in place of sham show trials. They execute you not because you have murdered anyone, they kill you in cold blood for merely expressing yourself.

How many million dollars did that old lady get again because she burned her legs at McPuke with a coffee?

Justice for money! is an american phrase.

I also gave you a name. You should at least do a little research before you start to mix subjects again and try to not answer the questions that are... uncomfortable for you.

Ah yes, the age old story where anything you say against your country is anti-patriotic and borderline treason. Hmmm....lets see then. Does that mean when I said "**** Bill Clinton" a couple years ago that I should be thrown into jail? I don't think so.

Age old? Well, it's not that long ago. And again I still wait for your statement about the person I mentioned before. Doesn't fit into arguments, right?

Besides that you got pretty well what I meant and there is no need to hide behind wonnabe sarcasm.

I can say anything I want in my country about my country without fear of retribution.

You are living in a dreamworld fella. Do some "progressive" statements about 9-11 and you will see how fast you change your opinion.

You missed my point. I mentioned that I can buy anything I want because it is a capitalist system. In the context in which I wrote it, I wanted to focus on the lack of free, laizze-faire enterprise in these fundamentalist countries. The limitation of economic freedom and progress was my main point, not the purchase of pot.

I didn't miss your point at all. But you missed mine. Pot was just an example for a good that underlies restrictions by the government for trading, like a lot of other stuff. You can't buy everything at any time. Also there is no proof that it needs a capitalistoc system to provide people with everything you want.
Another point is... even you could buy a lot of stuff, if you don't have the money you can't buy ****! Exactly that was (and still is) the problem in the former communistic countries here in Europe. After the communists finally gave way to capitalism, the stores were full with goods from the western world, but they didn't have the bucks to buy it. But on the counterpart the cheap stuff from their own country wasn't sold anymore, so they had to buy the expensive stuff. They ended up having less than before. Or do you wonna tell me now that Russia e.g is a wealthy and proepering country more than 10 years after Gorbatchev kicked the communists out of the Kremlin?

And in regards to that...it's the law, voted and ruled on by the majority. See my other comments on democracy and consensual sex with minors..

Repeating it doesn't make it more true. It has nothing to do with subject!

Ironically, Maryland, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the United States also has the highest death rate. Interestingly enough, states with concealed handgun permits have some of the lowest crime rates, capital and otherwise.

I'm not surprised at all. As long as the guns are not banned nation-wide it will stay like this. I hope I don't have to explain to you why...

I can and will defend myself. You can call me anything you want, but I maintain that the ability to defend yourself is an inalienable right for all people.

:confused: When did I say that you are not allwed to defend yourself? You like to be the victim or what?

I'm not trying to change the way you think or the way you live your life. I merely wanted to hear your opinion on why we are worse off, nothing more nothing less.

And you got an answer but didn't get it. Too bad. All the main points of my post aou just twiested or ignored them.

The law that he was arrested under " says that if you crack a system meant to protect a copyright work, you go to jail; if you produce software for the purpose of cracking anti-circumvention measures, you go to jail."

Too bad that this is not a crime in the country where he lives and works. So US laws apply to anyone, even the crime is not committed on US soil and the criminal was also not committing a crime in his home country? Interesting point of view!

He was arrested because he violated the law. End of story.

Yup! That's how you always end a subject when it starts to become uncomfortable...

I'm interested to hear your opinion as to how a copyright law violates civil rights.

It violates the civil rights of a person when you are imprisioned by a third country even though you didn't commit that crime on it's soil, nor it is a crime in your own country.

It's the same as if you would go to jail in Singapore because you stepped on a bill of singapore money in Japan. The DMCA is violating the souvereignity of other countries and their laws. End of story! ;)

Ever heard of Kosovo or Bosnia? Yeah, thought so.

Ever noticed that you mix up arrogance with competence?

Only two days drive away from Germany and European governments stood idle while thousands of Muslim refugees were being slaughtered.

Does that have any effect on my opinion and the subject we discuss? I don't even know why you bring up that subject now. I am not responsible for the actions of my other european governments. And maybe I should remind you, that not very long ago Germany was a divided country and a lot of people were against a reunification and military souvereignity. Not even 10 years later they are supposed to fight in first row. Another thing is that the germans have quite a history in that region from WWII. It wouldn't have been very smart to involve them into military action in a region like that. It's hard to be smart, huh?

Nothing was done.

I still wonder what all this has to do with the original subject? You asked why we are 10x worse and I answered. It's amazing... now you even talk about the wars in the balkan and how european policy failed during this time. I try very hard, but I can't see any correlation...

<deleted>

Ever heard of the IMF?

Yes... and you?

Sounds very similar to what Marx said.

And? He was a smart man, although he wasn't right about everything it doesn't mean he was wrong in general.

I'd like to hear it. In all honesty, I am very interested in debating these topics/issues further. You are one of the few people here on MR that I can really debate with. ;) :p

Another try to be funny... but that's just it... a try.

Regards,

groovebuster

groovebuster
Nov 24, 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU


Gladly...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=109284#post109284
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=111136#post111136
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=112903#post112903
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=12040&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

Here's the biggie:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=8083&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Now who's telling fairy tales? ;)

Nice to see that I have a fan who is wasting his time by bookmarking or searching for threads I participated in... ;)

BUT... I don't see at all how those links confirm your statement that:

groovebuster has a history of running out on threads when he gets too much opposition.

I guess it was pretty hard for you to find those links at all... Why you don't provide some of me having a constructive discussion with some people? Let me guess... it wouldn't put you in the right light.

Oh... and one thing to hitman again: Just remind me next time that you guys are not worth to be helped again:

http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52

Discussing something is one thing... the way you twist the statements of people something totally different. Your last paragraph is speaks also for itself.

groovebuster

Rower_CPU
Nov 24, 2002, 06:40 PM
What's worse, my taking the time to find your old posts, or you having to link to a completely different forum to find an instance of you being helpful? ;)

Why is your only argument to any topic that people twist your words around? Why don't you just say what you mean clearly and with no ambiguity so that no-one can take things in the wrong way?

I'm not trying to be mean, I just keep seeing the same pattern repeat itself with you. You get into broad moral/philoshophical debates, make generalizations and consistently fail to back up your opinions when questioned. You always come back with: "You're twisting my words around. That's not what I meant."

Why do so many people here have a problem understading your points? Are we all less intelligent? I doubt it. Are we less open-minded? I doubt it.

What then is the last variable in this equation?

groovebuster
Nov 24, 2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
What's worse, my taking the time to find your old posts, or you having to link to a completely different forum to find an instance of you being helpful? ;)

Because it is an example when I was helpful to hitman??? Got it???

Why is your only argument to any topic that people twist your words around? Why don't you just say what you mean clearly and with no ambiguity so that no-one can take things in the wrong way?

*yawn* Maybe because he did??? If he wasn't sure what I meant he could have asked before making statements like he did... Why do I have to be always "smarter" than my counterparts and waste my time by explaining obvious things three times, even though they don't even take the time to really read what I wrote and ask what I meant?

I'm not trying to be mean, I just keep seeing the same pattern repeat itself with you.

Don't worry... it is way too amuzing how you try to hit on me all the time again and again. Are you obsessed or something? ;)

You get into broad moral/philoshophical debates, make generalizations and consistently fail to back up your opinions when questioned. You always come back with: "You're twisting my words around. That's not what I meant."

Wow! You really analyzed me well! I am impressed!

By the way, I see no point in writing the same thing two times when I already expressed it well enough the first time so that even someone like you (english mother-tongue ;) ) can understand it. It is enough to tell the person that it misunderstood what I said and that it should reread my post. Oh... and my self-righteous fellow, I told him also why he misunderstood what I said. Also that is something I don't have to repeat ten times. I also would be glad if you could show me when I did generalize?

But let me tell you that I also see a pattern in your behaviour! :D You seem to be on a crusade to bash people you had trouble with once to feel superior by telling them how stupid they are all the time. You could have ignored me, but no... you couldn't resist to put an offense into your post. I really wonder who has the bigger problem... you or me? ;)

Oh... and I'll ask my mother-in-law if I'll get a diploma now for my hobby analysis of you! She's a real psycholgist and knows her ****... just funny that she never saw that pattern in my behaviour even though she's a pro an knows me way better than you...

Why do so many people here have a problem understading your points? Are we all less intelligent? I doubt it. Are we less open-minded? I doubt it.

Hitman, you... who else? I could also tell you a lot of people who agree with me on a lot of stuff... like Alex_ant and many others . Mostly it is people that are not from the US... Coincedence?

Maybe it is also a question of cultural background? And maybe you are less intelligent, but who am I to decide that? ;)

Is it always obvious who is smarter? The person who doesn't understand what the other one is saying or the perosn who is saying things that are not understood by the average Joe Sixpack?

Maybe it is too abstract for you what I am talking about...? Who really knows?

What then is the last variable in this equation?

A doubt is not a proof. Therefore you got 0% in doing the math. You try to be offensive in a smart way. I am impressed! You didn't change a bit since last time we had our little fight.

Actually I couldn't care less what especially you are thinking about me. It is fun nevertheless to answer your senseless posts. Someone who is so much full of hate and is so resentful as you are is an interesting person to talk to.

So keep the good work up to entertain me.

Oh... and in case I don't answer right away, it is not because I am running away, for now the reason is, it is alsmost 2:30 a.m. here in Germany and I need to sleep. Other reasons in the future also can be that I have a family I have to take care of or that I have to work once in a while.

Good night! I hope I'll find another offensive post by you tomorrow morning! ;)

groovebuster

Rower_CPU
Nov 24, 2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
Because it is an example when I was helpful to hitman??? Got it???

You misunderstand once again. Why did you have to find a link from another forum if you a "helpful" person as you claim to be? There should be plenty examples of your helpfulness here on MacRumors.

*yawn* Maybe because he did??? If he wasn't sure what I meant he could have asked before making statements like he did... Why do I have to be always "smarter" than my counterparts and waste my time by explaining obvious things three times, even though they don't even take the time to really read what I wrote and ask what I meant?

Ah, I see. It's everyone else who has the problem. Of course. ;)

Don't worry... it is way too amuzing how you try to hit on me all the time again and again. Are you obsessed or something? ;)

Hitting on you? Wow, I didn't realize I came off as someone who was sexually interested in you. I apologize.

By the way, I see no point in writing the same thing two times when I already expressed it well enough the first time so that even someone like you (english mother-tongue ;) ) can understand it. It is enough to tell the person that it misunderstood what I said and that it should reread my post. Oh... and my self-righteous fellow, I told him also why he misunderstood what I said. Also that is something I don't have to repeat ten times. I also would be glad if you could show me when I did generalize?

The point is that you are involved in a debate. The purpose of debate is to try to discuss opposing viewpoints. If you can't articulate your position in a manner that the other participants can understand, then you are not holding up your end of the discussion. When you are asked to explain further you should try to clarify for the sake of keeping the flow of communication going. I realize this may not be easy for someone who does not speak English as their native language, hell, it's not easy for some people who do speak English natively.

But let me tell you that I also see a pattern in your behaviour! :D You seem to be on a crusade to bash people you had trouble with once to feel superior by telling them how stupid they are all the time. You could have ignored me, but no... you couldn't resist to put an offense into your post. I really wonder who has the bigger problem... you or me? ;)

Since I did you the favor of pointing out some of your difficulties, I'd appreciate it if you would do likewise, and provide links to backup your statements. I have had arguments during my 13+ months posting here, but it usually stays in one thread and I am able to get along just fine with people afterwards. I do have a problem with people who constantly create conflict and never seem to come to compromises/understandings with others.

Oh... and I'll ask my mother-in-law if I'll get a diploma now for my hobby analysis of you! She's a real psycholgist and knows her ****... just funny that she never saw that pattern in my behaviour even though she's a pro an knows me way better than you...

And I'll have to ask my mother and girlfriend, both "real" psychologists the same thing. Funny how you jump to the conclusion that the behavior I noticed extends to the rest of your life. Defensive? ;)
Besides, is your mother-in-law a member here? Does she see your behavior here? I doubt it.

Hitman, you... who else? I could also tell you a lot of people who agree with me on a lot of stuff... like Alex_ant and many others . Mostly it is people that are not from the US... Coincedence?

Maybe it is also a question of cultural background? And maybe you are less intelligent, but who am I to decide that? ;)

There are many people here who will agree with you, regardless of nationality. And, vice versa, there are many who will disagree. This is the nature of discussing volatile subjects. You seem intent on blaming Americans for these disagreements. In case you haven't noticed, this is a predominately US site and you will run into American posters. If that is such a hard thing for you to deal with, you might want to evaluate your reasons for being here.

Is it always obvious who is smarter? The person who doesn't understand what the other one is saying or the perosn who is saying things that are not understood by the average Joe Sixpack?

Maybe it is too abstract for you what I am talking about...? Who really knows?

If I start speaking gibberish and then laugh at you because you didn't understand what I said...lack of comprehension does not equal lack of intelligence. Speaking of math...

A doubt is not a proof. Therefore you got 0% in doing the math. You try to be offensive in a smart way. I am impressed! You didn't change a bit since last time we had our little fight.

It's not a doubt. All other variables being accounted for, there is only one possible answer which fits the equation. You need to put your ego aside and take a look at what's going on here.

I'm sorry you feel we've had fights. Disagreements, yes, but not fights.

Actually I couldn't care less what especially you are thinking about me. It is fun nevertheless to answer your senseless posts. Someone who is so much full of hate and is so resentful as you are is an interesting person to talk to.

So keep the good work up to entertain me.

Again, your continual labeling and dismissing of other people here on the forums grows tiresome. I have never attacked you without provocation, and I'm doing my best to remain polite in this situation.

If you view this as entertainment it's no wonder that you encounter as many difficulties as you do.

Oh... and in case I don't answer right away, it is not because I am running away, for now the reason is, it is alsmost 2:30 a.m. here in Germany and I need to sleep. Other reasons in the future also can be that I have a family I have to take care of or that I have to work once in a while.

Good night! I hope I'll find another offensive post by you tomorrow morning! ;)

Have a good night's sleep. Hopefully your combative nature is the result of lack of sleep and you will be more willing to discuss things in a civil manner in the future.

I disagree that I have posted anything offensive, and I look forward to any proof that you can provide to the contrary.

I apologize to all who have read these lengthy posts, but did anyone expect anything different in a thread on this topic? ;)

job
Nov 24, 2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by topicolo
If the US wants to take initiative in solving the world's problems, why don't they go police the israelis and the palestinians?

I don't think the United States wants to solve all the world's problems.

If we did, we would be accused of meddling in other issues of other nations.

The UN may not be a ****ing world government, but it is better than no international organization at all. Their job wouldn't be so hard if all of their member countries stopped putting their own interests ahead of others all the time.

I agree with you to a point.

Even though we may strive to work together to solve international issues, the differing of national interests will continue to affect the way conflicts are resolved.

There are instances in which national interest is not the main goal, i.e. Bosnia and Kosovo. But these are far and few between.

It is highly ironic that the UN established aid and refugee centers built during the Israeli War of Independence in 1948 have become some of the major flashpoints in the region i.e. Nablus, et al.

job
Nov 24, 2002, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
Another try to be funny... but that's just it... a try.

I am cold sober serious.

I have often enjoyed debating with you whether you realize it or not.

As your values differ so greatly from mine, it is a refreshing change of pace and mentality to me.

I will respond to your most recent posts this Tuesday when I have more time.

job
Nov 24, 2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by groovebuster
Oh... and one thing to hitman again: Just remind me next time that you guys are not worth to be helped again:

http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52

Yes, you helped me on a tech issue.

I appreciated and thanked you for it.

Why is it an issue now?

Discussing something is one thing... the way you twist the statements of people something totally different. Your last paragraph is speaks also for itself.

Whether or not you realize it, that is the way I interpreted your posts.

I made no attempt to "twist" your words.

The concept that our " way of life" is "10x worse" will be interpreted on an online forum at pure face value, whether or not you meant it any other way.

"Way of life" means just that; the values and morals by which we live, our ideals and political concepts and institutions.

"Life style" is something Martha Stewart does.

As I know you are not a native English speaker, it is understandable that the phrases are used when you meant the other.

However, I only took what you stated at face value, nothing more, nothing less. I provided concrete details and factual information by which to support my opinion. If you see this as "twisting" your words, fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

groovebuster
Nov 25, 2002, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
You misunderstand once again. Why did you have to find a link from another forum if you a "helpful" person as you claim to be? There should be plenty examples of your helpfulness here on MacRumors.

And now you turn it into something totally rediculous. I was writing something that you interpreted wrong. And when I correct you, you tell me that I misunderstood you? You want to be right, no matter what, huh?

Ah, I see. It's everyone else who has the problem. Of course. ;)

Ah, I see... you don't have any problem at all. That's why you run after me all the time! Of course! ;)

Hitting on you? Wow, I didn't realize I came off as someone who was sexually interested in you. I apologize.

The way you act it is easy to get that impression! :D

The point is that you are involved in a debate. The purpose of debate is to try to discuss opposing viewpoints. If you can't articulate your position in a manner that the other participants can understand, then you are not holding up your end of the discussion. When you are asked to explain further you should try to clarify for the sake of keeping the flow of communication going. I realize this may not be easy for someone who does not speak English as their native language, hell, it's not easy for some people who do speak English natively.

Where and when I didn't clarify when asked?

Since I did you the favor of pointing out some of your difficulties, I'd appreciate it if you would do likewise, and provide links to backup your statements. I have had arguments during my 13+ months posting here, but it usually stays in one thread and I am able to get along just fine with people afterwards.

Back up what? That I got along with people after having a discussion? I have to prove myself? You are kidding, right?

As far as I remember you started the whole thing now by a provocation. Instead of participating in the discussion. The first thing you said was attacking me without any reason. So you wonna tell me about finding compromises or getting along with people? You are a jolly joker!

I do have a problem with people who constantly create conflict and never seem to come to compromises/understandings with others.

Then you cannot mean me. I even got along with AlphaTech (alias Akira) before he left Macrumors even though we had very different points of view before. That little help example from TheTechPub was taken wisely by me, because one of your examples was invloving hitman when I asked for clarification about a statement he did. That little help with his software problem came after that. Just check the dates.

I don't create conflicts, I just tell my opinion. Think different! Sounds familiar? I am willing to come to compromises, but that is something that has to be done by both sides, not only one.

You tell me constantly that I am the one who has the problem and you even didn't try to talk to me before in a normal way. Where is the compromise from your side? I didn't see any so far. Saying things and doing them is a big difference as you should know. Don't be too much in love with yourself...

And I'll have to ask my mother and girlfriend, both "real" psychologists the same thing. Funny how you jump to the conclusion that the behavior I noticed extends to the rest of your life. Defensive? ;)

Come on... now you try to be smarter again than you are. If you really think like that, why you even bother? I highly doubt that a person without a personality disorder can be two-faced like that. Patterns like you described them show in various situations in life. Not only one in particular. Showing you that you are wrong is a triumph for you? Funny way to see it. But everyone it's own...

You would like to see me in the defensive corner, because you want to win, no matter what.

Besides, is your mother-in-law a member here? Does she see your behavior here? I doubt it.

My wife read some articles... but I better don't tell you what she thinks about all that... and also you! :D And I have to disappoint you, she is not willing to participate because she doesn't see the point to be dragged into a discussion like that. I guess we have to accept that! ;)

There are many people here who will agree with you, regardless of nationality. And, vice versa, there are many who will disagree. This is the nature of discussing volatile subjects.

Ooooh, now even you got it! Not along ago you said that I wouldn't get along with anybody...

You seem intent on blaming Americans for these disagreements. In case you haven't noticed, this is a predominately US site and you will run into American posters.

No, I said that I just noticed that I mostly agree with posts from non-US people and disagree with the posts coming from US-fellows. I didn't generalize, I just watched that tendency. Combined with the fact that the US foreign policy is anything but "smart" these days in my opinion and a lot of US people (not all of them) endorse it, it is just natural that it causes emotional discussions.

If that is such a hard thing for you to deal with, you might want to evaluate your reasons for being here.

It seems more that you have a problem with people that are not from the US and have a different opinion than the majority of the US americans. How arrogant a person has to be to make a statement like you did? If I would live in the US it would change anything? So far I only can see that it is hard for you to deal with me! So maybe you should evaluate the reasons why you even talk to me, Mr. Righteous?

If I start speaking gibberish and then laugh at you because you didn't understand what I said...lack of comprehension does not equal lack of intelligence. Speaking of math...

Gibberish... I see! And when did I laugh about anybody? It seems to be hard work to make me look worse than I am! ;)

It's not a doubt. All other variables being accounted for, there is only one possible answer which fits the equation.

Which variables? All others are accounted for? Are you sure? How can you be sure? You don't have any proof only assumptions made by yourself and one variable being yourself. And an equation with more than one variable has more than one solution.

I don't even know why you brought up math. To sound smart again? A precise science has nothing to do with what is going on here...

You need to put your ego aside and take a look at what's going on here.

You should follow that advice yourself first before giving it to other people. So far you are the only one who is running after me to tell me constantly about what a bad person I am. I ask you again... who is having the bigger problem? You, or me?

I'm sorry you feel we've had fights. Disagreements, yes, but not fights.

Good joke! :D Why you would be sorry when the first thing in here is to attack me indirectly without even talking to me directly? Looks more like a fight than a disagreement to me. Or do you always act like that when you have a disagreement? Oh my...

Again, your continual labeling and dismissing of other people here on the forums grows tiresome. I have never attacked you without provocation, and I'm doing my best to remain polite in this situation.

Your continual running after me grows tiresome too. And you seem to have a very bad memory when you forget things that easily. Just read your first post in this thread mentioning me again. Neither I talked to you before nor I provoked you in person in any way. Your statement was polite, huh? Yeah, right!

Also you should read my last paragraph of my first reply to hitman that he (and also you) totally ignored! Instead he was making fun of me.

If you view this as entertainment it's no wonder that you encounter as many difficulties as you do.

1. I don't encounter many difficulties at all.
2. Of course it is entertaining after a while to talk to someone who is accusing someone else not being able to find compromises by constantly trying to bash that person.

Have a good night's sleep.

Thank you, I did! :)

Hopefully your combative nature is the result of lack of sleep and you will be more willing to discuss things in a civil manner in the future.

You mean as civil as you do? By offending and provoking people instead of being a good example for the "values" you think you incarnate? You won't leave me alone before I say: "Yes, you are right, it's all my fault!" How sick is that?

groovebuster

groovebuster
Nov 25, 2002, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by hitman


I am cold sober serious.

I have often enjoyed debating with you whether you realize it or not.

As your values differ so greatly from mine, it is a refreshing change of pace and mentality to me.

I will respond to your most recent posts this Tuesday when I have more time.

Then I apologize. For me it sounded kind of sarcastic since you put those smileys behind your paragraph. -> :p

I guess I started to take your statements too personal since my "fan" Rower_CPU was starting to be involved once again. It looked a little bit as if you teamed up, even though you didn't. It was just him pushing into the discussion by sucking up to you.

So forget my statement about not worth helping you and stuff, I was just pissed at Rower and I shouldn't have dragged you into that. A pity that he showed up and acts like that. Could have been an interesting discussion and I hope it can become one again.

Greetings

groovebuster

Ifeelbloated
Nov 25, 2002, 05:41 AM
This "discussion" has international incident written all over it. :D

topicolo
Nov 25, 2002, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by wdlove
The United States is after all the only superpower on Earth! The UN hates us. Majority of members are poor nations that want our stuff. Would you prefer the Kenndy & Clinton approach, extend welfare to the world!

Being the only superpower left on Earth, the US should make sure that they lead with a good example. Granted, the US is much more civilized than many third world nations (not all police are corrupt, riots are usually quelched before 206 people die, etc), but we should not view the rest of the world as a bunch of greedy beggars.

I do prefer the "Clinton and Kennedy approach," only because that is the only true way to eradicate terrorism and ill-will towards all western countries, including the US. Giving less fortunate nations aid and education will help them understand us better, and reduce any of their misconceptions about us. This, in turn, will reduce acts of terrorism.

Would you rather prefer a Bush approach, where we spend hundreds of billions of dollars to crush all those who disapprove of the US? That same amount of money would do a much better job aiding third world countries, improving the image of the US and generating goodwill from the rest of the world

daveg5
Nov 25, 2002, 11:54 AM
Isnt that the way Jesus led, He would not even preach until he knew everyone had a full stomach. he was always healing the sick and helping the less fortunate. And unlike the Scribes and Pharisees and some ultra conservatives (not all) he was not always bragging that he was better than others or that he kept the law, he was not willing to stone the prostitute but instead asked he without sin throw the first stone. he thew out the Capitalist pundits always looking for profit making even in the temple(extreme Right) not all) and showed that worshipping god there was more important. He gave his life to get his point across whether then take someone else's because he knew they acted in ignorance.
Now as 1 of the last 2 superpowers yes Russia is still a superpower that can eliminate us tommorow if they believe in suicide. We are acting more like a dictator then many dictators bribing nations to side with us through the united states united nations.
Unemployment Comp and Welfare (corporate welfare makes people welfare look small by comparison) and a helping hand is not bad when truly needed to help you get back on your feet again, it is not bad even when some people abuse it. The abuser are bad and should be punished not the safety net. just like guns dont kill people people do. should we get rid of all guns because of a stupid few . no but we can continue to update and enforce laws for current guns and welfare recipients including corporate welfare.
remember clinton bomb iraq too with little support from the right did okay and bosnia, terrible in africa, kept jews and arabs talking, so so in haiti and let bush know the usama was extremely dangerous but bush wanted to avenge his dad more then anything, carter did great in the mid east(the only one with results), not so good in other places got the stealth bomber and other weapons systems going, big bush did okay in iraq and i guess his son will do likewise, reagan did okay supporting saddam and iran(secretly) at the same, but overall kept us out of war. All presidents had low and high times in international affairs which was influence by the presidents before them so no president can claim that he did anything on his own with out given some blame or prase on those before him. I say pray for are leaders even if you disagree with them even if they were not elected but appointed. but let your voice be heard as with the new wiretaping laws it surely will be.

jelloshotsrule
Nov 25, 2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by hitman
Ironically, Maryland, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the United States also has the highest death rate. Interestingly enough, states with concealed handgun permits have some of the lowest crime rates, capital and otherwise.


not an attack or anything, but you have mentioned gun control as though it was the sole focus of the movie (bowling for columbine).. when in reality, the movie itself kinda "proves" that gun availability is not the problem, but rather the fear mongering of the media...


Ever heard of the IMF?


how does mentioning the existence of the IMF prove that the US and capitalistic globalization isn't burdening poorer countries? if anything, the IMF and WTO are all about widening the gap... ever seen "life and debt"?

jelloshotsrule
Nov 25, 2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by hitman
I don't think the United States wants to solve all the world's problems.

If we did, we would be accused of meddling in other issues of other nations.


hmm... we kinda ARE accused of meddling in the issues of other nations. and rightfully so.



groovebuster: i love hearing opinions about america from non-americans, because it helps put our own opinions in perspective. even though we've had our own nasty run ins in the past, we eventually had our peace when we essentially agreed.. and i agree with a lot of what you say, i think it may just be the way it comes off on here. some !'s and such make it seem more emotional and such than it may be. in any case, keep up the good discussions, though i can't read every post of them all.

i think it's all too easy to get too fired up because of the manner in which words are typed.

word.

robguz
Nov 25, 2002, 10:13 PM
I hate those evil North Koreans. Talk about your axis of evil! First the hold that poor British prisoner hostage. Then they try to turn that one Korean dude with diamond shrapnel in his face into a Honkey. Then they go and mess with Halle Berry.

Oh no they di' int!!!!!


Ooops, my bad, that was a lame movie, not Bush's war. Hard to tell the difference sometimes.

wdlove
Nov 26, 2002, 11:29 AM
Preparing for the Next Terrorist Attack in America_
1._ PROBLEM:
__________The American public is constantly asking three questions: Where, when and if
__________another terrorist attack will occur in America?_
2._ ASSUMPTIONS:
__________
_________a. Multiple agencies in the U.S. government are currently charged with a myriad of _overlapping intelligence functions designed to aid in the defense of the United States. _
__________b. The mission of the Department of Defense (DOD) is to provide the military force_needed to deter war and to protect the security of our country, "against all enemies foreign and domestic."
__________c. The mission of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is to support the President, the National Security Council (NSA), and U.S. national security policy by providing _intelligence data related to national security and conducting counterintelligence _activities as directed by the President.
__________d. The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) mission is to provide intelligence data to the_DOD and the Intelligence Community, in support of U.S. military planning and operations.
__________e. The National Security Agency (NSA) mission is to provide intelligence data critical to U.S. national security interests. _
__________f. The Mission of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is to uphold the law through _the investigation of violations of federal criminal law, to protect the U.S. from foreign _intelligence and terrorist activities, and to provide leadership & law enforcement assistance to federal, state, local, and international agencies.
__________g. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating disaster. There are many more agencies:
__________The Department of Justice (DOJ), the Department of Immigration and Naturalization _(INS), and the U.S. Coast Guard (USCG), among many others, all with similar and vital missions in contributing to U.S. national security.
3._ FACTS BEARING ON THE PROBLEM:
__________a. The states Emergency Management Agencies mission is to lessen the effects of disaster on the lives and property of the people through support of the four phases of emergency management: mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery.
__________b. The State Police mission is to patrol the state's highways, enforce criminal laws and act in other important ways for the purpose of enforcing state & federal laws and_protecting the public safety.
__________c. The states Departments of Defense, Veterans and Emergency Management, Army National Guard (ARNG) & Air National Guard (ANG), mission is to protect the lives, _property and welfare of the people by maintaining the National Guard, providing veterans services and coordinating emergency management._ In many states the Departments of Defense, Veterans and Emergency Management agencies are _assigned the additional mission of homeland security.
__________d. The Weapons of Mass Destruction-Civil Support Teams (WMD-CST) is a_ National _Guard asset specifically designed to be part of a tiered response for doing_in case of a suspected weapons of mass destruction (WMD) incident.
4._ DISCUSSION:
__________a. The proposed Dept of Homeland Security will gather and analyze intelligence and other information pertaining to threats to the homeland from multiple sources within _the US government merge under one agency the capability to identify and assest_current and future threats to the nation._ However, it will easily take three to five years for the Department of Homeland Security to fuse together and become an effective government agent in the Global War on Terrorism._
__________b. The U.S. government acknowledges the fact that Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations have adapted to the Global War on Terrorism and are currently operating under a "leaderless resistance" operational method and are planning strikes on "soft targets" in America and abroad.
__________c. The HartRudman Report acknowledges that state and local authorities are working _in a "virtual vacuum of intelligence data" in preparing for potential future terrorist attacks against this country at the local level.
"A year after September 11, 2001, America remains dangerously
unprepared to prevent and respond to a catastrophic attack on U.S. soil."_
(America Still Unprepared_ America Still in Danger, Co-Chairs:
Hart & Rudman, Council on Foreign Relations, 2002, Pg 9.)
__________d. The collection of human intelligence is quoted most often as the weakest area in _the entire intelligence functional area._ However, the utilization of the Internet by Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups to pass messages and operational plans has_radically altered the potential for gathering intelligence data._ Data and resource collection techniques on the Internet are the most underutilized aspect of intelligence data collection today._ Open source Internet data collection offers the single most _effective tool on the Global War on Terrorism: Low cost and ease of use.
__________e. The civil and medical emergency management communities are all working diligently to plan, develop and implement emergency plans in the event of a catastrophic terrorist attack._ The medical and emergency management communities _are in desperate need of analysts that can advise and educate about the potential _kinds of causalities they could encounter in various conventional terrorist incidents._
__________In addition, emergency first responders: police, fire & EMS are virtually unaware of the characteristics and early recognition of a terrorist attack. _ __
__________f. Currently there are twenty-two WMD-CST Teams scattered across the country._ The Department of Defense and National Guard Bureau is working on funding, fielding and training many more teams._ However, it typically takes two or more years to train_and deploy a functioning WMD-CST Team from conception to full operational readiness.
__________g. It is not part of the WMD-CST Team mission to organize, plan, train or educate local government, law enforcement, emergency personnel or first respose_preparation or response to all possible terrorist incidents._ For example a WMD-CST _Team is not trained to assist in the preparation and response to an attack by the Earth _Liberation Front / Animal Liberation Front (ELF/ALF)._ The ELF / ALF, according to the FBI, is the most active terrorist group in America and is noted for terrorist attacks_involving arson._
__________h. Numerous states and many large urban cities have already in place extremely capable civilian versions of Weapons of Mass Destruction Teams and Counter-Terrorism Analysts._ These states and urban areas have, in place contingency plans in the event of a major terrorist attack._ Rather it is the smaller states and smaller urban centers, "the Breadbasket of America," that are most vulnerable to the effects of a terrorist attack._ It is the smaller states and urban areas _that are in the most need of timely counter-terrorism intelligence data and will wait the longest to see the long-term benefits of intelligence sharing and emergency _management from the Department of Homeland Security.
5._ POSSIBLE COURSES OF ACTION (COA):
__________a. COA #1:
____________________1) Allow the Department of Homeland Security time to come on-line as a _functioning organization and pass intelligence data and training to the local governments, law enforcement and emergency management personnel.
____________________2) Allow the WMD Teams to continue to visit, educate and train local first responders in the WMD-CST's role in the emergency management system in the_event of a WMD attack.
____________________3) Allow FEMA to continue to provide training, logistics and support to the state emergency management agencies, as it becomes available.
____________________4) Allow local law enforcement, emergency personnel and first responders to respond to possible terrorist incidents in the best manner they are capable off.
__________b. COA #2:
____________________1) All actions listed under COA #1, utilizing the resources of the Department of _Homeland Security as it comes on-line and begins functioning as a viable resource.
____________________2) Staff the state Departments of Homeland Defense with additional analysts whose primary roles & responsibilities would include:
___________a. Provide timely intelligence data utilizing open source data collection
______________________________techniques._
____________b. Establish liaison and share data with the FBI, Immigration Naturalization Service (INS), Department of Justice and other relevant federal and state agencies. C.Implement and establish an Internet based terrorism awareness resource and early warning e-mail based system. __
_____________d. Establish a regular schedule of informational briefings concerning the conventional terrorist threat to local governments, law enforcement, and emergency personnel for terrorism awareness and appropriate planning.

wdlove
Nov 26, 2002, 11:32 AM
6._ RECOMMENDATION:
__________a. COA #1 will comprehensively aid many of the individual states and local communities efforts in the Global War on terrorism._ However, it will easily be three to _five years before the Department of Homeland Defense will be effectively functioning _as a viable resource to the individual states and local agencies._ If COA #1 is pursued then individual states will continue to operate in a reactive mode to possible terrorist attacks for the foreseeable near future.
__________b. For COA #2 to succeed, it is critical that the analysts hired to fulfill this role is:
____________________1) The analysts must be or become a subject matter expert in terrorism, without regard to prior intelligence or formal school training._ In the wake of Sept 11th it is time to look at all possible sources available and not become wrapped around_bureaucratic thinking._ Most terrorists do not have a Masters degree or have graduated from an intelligence school, however they are still very effective._
____________________2) The analysts must be comfortable in using & developing Internet based_resources with a background and experience in open source data collection.
____________________3) The analysts must have a basic understanding of medical support operations.
____________________4) The analysts must be comfortable in addressing small groups of people in public._
____________________5) The analysts should work independently, outside the normal chain of command (COC) so as to not become bogged down in the bureaucratic process._ The analytical team would still be required to report any findings to the COC prior to publishing, commenting or making any reports public so as not to alarm the public unnecessarily and to keep the COC fully informed.
____________________6) The analytical team discussed in COA #2 is a short-term fix until the Department of Homeland Security becomes fully functional and is not designed to become a _long-term solution. _ _ _
__________c. COA #2 offers the benefit of a short-term (three to five year) fix to the problem of counter-terrorism intelligence and education to local government, at a minimal cost, _until the Department of Homeland Security becomes fully operational._
7. CONCLUSION:
__________a. A basic understanding of the problem of terrorism in modern society can be quickly gained by arranging for a presentation from WCQ._ Arranging for a presentation of _Understanding Terrorism is a first step in implementing COA #2.
___
__________b. Terrorism 101- Understanding Terrorism, the text, is an additional step in implementing COA #2 and addresses the needs of local government in
__________briefings and the following articles:
__________
____________________1) Article Review of "Intelligence and the Challenge of Terrorism
____________________In the 21st Century"
____________________2) Origins of Terrorism
____________________3) Hezbollah's Future Role in the Middle East
____________________4) German Anti-Partisan Operations in the Russian Theater of Operations During
____________________the Second World War
____________________5) Osama bin Laden
____________________6) Will Terrorists Use Weapons of Mass Destruction in the 21st Century
____________________7) The Gulf War and its Impact on UN Peacekeeping
____________________8) Peacekeeping in Interstate vs. International Conflicts
____________________9) The Failure of Limited War as a National Strategy
____________________10) The Peace Process in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia
____________________11) Reevaluation of UN Peacekeeping Mission
____________________12) New Challenges for the US Army
____________________13) What is Islam?
____________________14) Book Review of Beyond the Storm: A Gulf Crisis Reader
____________________15) Zionism
____________________16) The Effects of Disease on a Previously Unexposed Population
____________________17) The Effects of the Black Death (1347-1667) on European Society
____________________18) Justinian's Plague
____________________19) The Effects of the Black Death on Peasant Uprisings & Persecutions
____________________20) Reasons Behind Terrorism__________
____________________21) Al-Qaeda and Weapons of Mass Destruction
____________________22) The Results of a Hypothetical Release of Plague in New York City
______________________________
__________d. As a third step in implementing COA #2, World Conflict Quarterly,
__________www.globalterrorism101.com, is an already functioning Internet based resource that can be rapidly engaged to provide unlimited public access to basic information concerning terrorism. _ _
__________e. As a fourth step in implementing COA #2, an e-mail based early warning system can be easily and effectively built for your organization, locally or nationwide, by simply gathering the e-mail addresses from individuals attending the short "Terrorism 101_
__________Understanding Terrorism" awareness briefings and, the currently under development by WQC, "Medical Responses to Terrorism" awareness briefings.
__________f. Finally, WCQ can be engaged to provide consulting services and custom reports._ Consulting fees begin at $ 35.00 an hour and travel costs._ Available on the World Conflict Quarterly website, www.globalterrorism101.com is the text of a custom analysis entitled "Terrorism Assessment - State of Maine."_ WCQ is available to conduct a custom analysis of the terrorist threat for your specific town, city, county, _region or state. All requests are considered on a case by case basis.
__________g. Go to World Conflict Quarterly, www.globalterrorism101.com, read the articles and study the Understanding Terrorism briefings._ Then decide if your organization is _ready to take concrete steps in Preparing for The Next Terrorist Attack on America._
__________For further information or questions contact Carroll Payne at
__________cpaynejr@globalterrorism101.com.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________Carroll Payne
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________President
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________World Conflict Quarterly
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________30 September 2002

daveg5
Nov 26, 2002, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
[B]

not an attack or anything, but you have mentioned gun control as though it was the sole focus of the movie (bowling for columbine).. when in reality, the movie itself kinda "proves" that gun availability is not the problem, but rather the fear mongering of the media...



Duh!, Gun laws dont prevent people from getting guns, except felons from getting them legally. thats it other than banning assault weapons, any gun magazine will sell you a kit to make your gun automatic not to mention silencer. That being the point gun laws make you wait to purchase your gun and keep a record of your purchase, anyone can bypass them by having a friend buy the gun for them or by simply going to a gun show and showing your license they just glance at it.
Gun laws are to prevent felons from legally purchasing guns at gun shops thats it and they do an okay(not perfect job).

As to your other point crime will always be higher including gun crimes, rape, drugs in depressed crowed urban enviroments with high unemployment, father less homes, poverty and despair regards of ant law gun drug or other.
Instead of all the effort and money going to homeland security and unlimited wiretaping why not take a quarter of that money and put it where America needs it most. As we are only as Great as the least of us living here. Lets truly stamp out poverty, get health care and needed food, drug treatment, family and sex education to the people that need it. not a hand out but a helping hand. Lets make it cool again to have one love with marriage then be a player with many. Fathers be Fathers and husband Mothers be Mothers and wives. enough of the sleeping around aids and herpes may one day be in the majority of Americans. And all the Churches with your sex scandals and money scandels start doing your duty take the message of hope to those less fortunate, dont be scared to get out of your suburban trappings and go to the places that really need your help. everyone can do something. Stop saying I am glad we are not bad off like them or they should know better. Go help them get better off and teach them better. not everyone has study straps on thier boots to pull them selfs up by like you.
OOPs got of subject Sorry Jello

wdlove
Dec 1, 2002, 01:41 PM
Jonathon Pollack thinks were in a real catch 22 with Iraq, the Inpections could come back to haunt Bush! "We have come to our last resort, full scale invasion of Iraq."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375509283/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_6/103-0110123-8219039?v=glance&s=books&n=507846/lauraingraham-20&vi=reviews

wdlove
Dec 3, 2002, 05:23 PM
According to reports Iraq is going to report to the UN a day early on 7 December. Anniversary of Pearl Harbor 1941. Inspections are not the endgame for Bush. Brad News Service is reporting that Donald Rumsfeld says we have hard evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq. If they deny it on Saturday, that's a cause for war. Rumsfeld is honest and well respected.

D-Day is December 8th, Iraq must comply. Bush "No delay or deception."
Keep your eye on the ball, disarmament is the issue, waiting for the list.

Turkey is now willing to let the US & Britian use its airbases for an attack on Iraq.

Cost of war estimated to be $200m for administration of post war Iraq. :confused:

wdlove
Dec 6, 2002, 07:54 PM
A clash of religions. At a time in history Christianity, Judism, & Islam have been evil & good.


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/

Approximately 13,000 words in Arabic due tomorrow with a denile "No weapons of Mass Destruction. Think a great possibilty of war mid December to mid January. The 5th Fleet out of Norfolk, VA is on the move, Middleast.

wdlove
Dec 10, 2002, 05:34 PM
US found 10 Scud Missiles onboard a ship from North Korea, headed to Yemen! Same as used by Saddam Hussein in 1991 against Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/10/ship.boarding/